Thog's alignment

[Ron Miel]

What do you think Thog's alignment is?

I think that like MITD he's actually a good person, he's just fallen under the influence of some very bad people. He wants to help his friends. So when Nale told him to nail not-Nale, he went along with it. Not from any sense of cruelty, but because he wants to help. Then Elan needed help to rescue Haley, and Thog helped. He'll help anyone that asks for it. He really likes to please people. He's just not bright enough to realize the consequences of helping Nale. If only he had joined a good-aligned party he could have performed acts of great heroism. I think he's neutral good, possibly even lawful good. It's just Nale that makes him do bad things.

[Mr. Mud]

Chaotic Good Maybe? I don't know... I'm not even sure Thog knows. Nale has alot of control over him... Sorta like that fat guy in the park that makes the monkey dance to the Eastern European music :smalltongue:.

[The Extinguisher]

Chaotic. Evil.

Get over it.

[Mr. Mud]

Chaotic. Evil.

Get over it.

Yeah, I just wanted to make an obscure reference about Eastern European Music, and monkeys. At Once. :smalltongue:.

Nale wouldn't let him into the group if he was anything more gooder-er.

[Hippoboy]

What do you think Thog's alignment is?

I think that like MITD he's actually a good person, he's just fallen under the influence of some very bad people. He wants to help his friends. So when Nale told him to nail not-Nale, he went along with it. Not from any sense of cruelty, but because he wants to help. Then Elan needed help to rescue Haley, and Thog helped. He'll help anyone that asks for it. He really likes to please people. He's just not bright enough to realize the consequences of helping Nale. If only he had joined a good-aligned party he could have performed acts of great heroism. I think he's neutral good, possibly even lawful good. It's just Nale that makes him do bad things.

He's at best chaotic impressionable. that doesn't make him any less cool. :smalltongue: also he may count as a anti-villain (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiVillain) or affably evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AffablyEvil)

[fraud]

True Neutral:smallbiggrin:

[FujinAkari]

Chaotic Evil. Decidedly redeemable, but atm very much evil.

[krossbow]

Chaotic evil.

He likes to have a good time, and he also likes having friends. Who doesn't? thats like saying that evil people magically hate icecream.

However, he also likes to hurt people, to smash things, and to kill. He is fully aware of this, as he states that this is what nale LETS him do. He sticks with the group because it gives him the option to do so.

He's a brutal force of nature. He enjoys having a good time, but he lacks empathy for the suffering around him. The fact that he delights in evil acts shows that he's chaotic evil.

[Occasional Sage]

Chaotic Evil. Decidedly redeemable, but atm very much evil.

What she said.

Where would you get "lawful" for Thog? He revels in doing whatever he wants; he likes Nale because Nale doesn't have rules for him to follow!

Good? Seriously, look at his expression when he goes crazy with his axe; he's gleeful when chopping people apart, including his friends' friends!

[Sir Conkey]

I agree that he is evil, but not that he is chaotic. He is incredibly loyal, thats looks more lawful to me, not as in abides laws lawful, but has his own rules he doesn't break
1.don't hurt friends (on purpose)
2.eat ice cream
3.listen to Nale (results in ice cream)

[Halvormerlinaky]

I'm gonna go with Chaotic Stupid. It fits best.

I mean, he's not really evil, he'll just do what anyone tells him to do, at least when it's Nale/Not-Nale. But he's definitely Chaotic.

[Borris]

Definitely Chaotic Evil, but probably not irredeemable. I don't even see how there could be an argument about this.
Thog likes to kill, is completely unpredcitable, and only ever listens to his people he likes (and then only when he has his fill of ice cream).

[FMArthur]

Thog likes to kill. He really likes it. For that reason, he's CE. If he were like MitD and didn't actually do anything evil or at least didn't enjoy it so much, then we could argue that the minimum intelligence score required for speech may be lower than the minimum intelligence required to make alignment-defining decisions.

[Jamfalcon]

Well, I don't know if it ever says it, but I'd guess he's a barbarian. Barbarians cannot be lawful, so he couldn't be lawful good. My guess would be chaotic evil, mostly because of this:http://www.cafepress.com/orderofthestick/312586

[keeperoflore]

Chaotic Neutral, i mean come on he cant be evil. although i would say he is chaotic, just because hes not smart enough to know anything about being lawful, although that could also mean he is True Neutral.

[FujinAkari]

Chaotic Neutral, i mean come on he cant be evil.

He can and he is.

Thog and Thelkia are similar characters in this respect. They have the potential to be good people, but they are loyal to manipulative and evil masters, and willfully (and happily) commit evil acts for their masters.

This makes them evil.

Thog is Chaotic, Thel is Lawful, but both are evil.

[keeperoflore]

i still say hes neutral, he just dosent seem evil to me, sure he follows an evil leader, but he has the ability to and will do good things if he feels so inclined. if he was evil everything he does would be evil.

or i might just need to re-read the whole comic because it seems im missing somthing...

[DreadSpoon]

I agree that he is evil, but not that he is chaotic. He is incredibly loyal, thats looks more lawful to me, not as in abides laws lawful, but has his own rules he doesn't break

I'm really hoping you're joking.


1.don't hurt friends (on purpose)

That does not qualify as a code that one adheres to. It's just a simple facet of natural behavior. You don't hurt people you like because you like them. You might as well say that Chaotic killers who murder people that they don't like are Lawful because they stick to the rule of "killing people they don't like."

I mean, you're essentially saying that it's impossible to be Chaotic Good, because Good people certainly don't purposefully hurt their friends. Elan and Haley simply can't exist, clearly.


2.eat ice cream

Hell, everyone must be Lawful then, because everyone follows the rule that they must breath. The whole Chaotic/Lawful axis is just a myth!

Haley is obviously Lawful because she always obsesses over gold, even more so than Thog obsesses over ice cream. Right?


3.listen to Nale (results in ice cream)

Except he doesn't. He broke out of jail despite being told not to, and did not attack Elan even though we can be pretty sure Nale told him to take Elan down. He even threatened Nale (or glowered at him very menacingly at the very least) when he thought Nale removed the rocket skates from the kidnapping plan.

Having a pattern of behavior does not constitute a code or set of rules. Even the Snarl -- a being defined as being pure Chaos -- has a very predictable pattern of behavior. It's pretty much impossible to have anything that is sentient, intelligent, personified, or otherwise capable of being considered a "character" that does not have a very large set of patterns applied to its behavior. There is no such thing as a Being of Pure Chaos by the purest of definitions. The difference between Lawful and Chaotic lies in the thought patterns (yes, patterns) of the character, not in the actual actions or concrete thoughts that the character has. Belkar is just as predictable as Roy -- the difference between them is that Belkar acts based on immediate whim and without care for consequences, while Roy acts based on what he believes is right and with concern for the future. Shojo is Chaotic despite using Law as a tool and despite acting as caretaker of a nation; perhaps he despised laws and structure and wanted to be carefree, but he chose to run things in a Lawful-manner (mostly) because his love for Azure City outweighed his possible desire for a life without obligation.

[krossbow]

People are confusing likeability with alignment.


A dislikable person can be good. A likable person can be evil.



Just because Thog is amusing and has a love of things that we also like doesn't make him good.


Thog has no conciensce; he doesn't CARE. all he wants is to have fun, and he will KILL people until he has it. No matter how much it hurts others or how much they beg, he's just going to keep chopping people up till he's happy. Chopping them up INTO LITTLE PIECES.
Just because he's smiling doesn't make that any less frightening.

[SoD]

Chaotic. Evil.

That's all that can be said on the subject.

[Inhuman Bot]

Good? let me quote: "resisting arrest is fun!" as he murders several people. I agree. Chaotic. Evil. 100%. get over it.

I don't recall if it was for belker, Thog, or both but I remember the Giant said: "What comic have you been reading? He's chaotic evil"

And also, is killing innocents because some said so a non evil act? :smallconfused:

[DBJack]

People are confusing likeability with alignment.


A dislikable person can be good. A likable person can be evil.



Just because Thog is amusing and has a love of things that we also like doesn't make him good.


Thog has no conciensce; he doesn't CARE. all he wants is to have fun, and he will KILL people until he has it. No matter how much it hurts others or how much they beg, he's just going to keep chopping people up till he's happy. Chopping the up INTO LITTLE PIECES.
Just because he's smiling doesn't make that any frightening.

I agree.
Miko was good...

Thog likes Nale specifically because Nale lets him smash stuff. Let's read Thog's first line: thog like breaking stuff. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html)

I like Thog, but he's not a 'good' character.

[joe]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html

Definitely Chaotic Evil.

Unless somehow tearing through the soft defenseless flesh of a friendly earth nymph unprovoked can be considered anything else... which I'm really unable to see that it can.

[Jural]

He is probably Chaotic Evil (or close your eyes and squint- Neutral Evil), but it is possible that he is just a very stupid and impressionable Chaotic Neutral (or, close your eyes and squint again- True Neutral.)

Part of being good is taking responsibility for your actions and having some examination of them, so I don't think he can swing that way.

Thog does act mostly like a child, so it is harder than most to get a definitive alignment reading on him. Same as the monster Xykon keeps.

[Porthos]

*checks watch*

Hmmm. It has been a couple of months since we had the last discussion about Thog's alignment. So I guess we're due. :smalltongue:

Since it's been all been said before (including that gag I just made :smallwink:) I'll just go ahead and quote my last few of posts on the subject. :smallbiggrin:

4177875


Someone who has enjoyed committing mass murder (well over 400 people at this point) and knows he is committing evil deeds, is evil. Especially if they don't have hundreds of saintly deeds to counterbalance them. And we've already seen that children can have a LG alignment, so that argument is chucked out as well. Sure he doesn't go Bwahahahaha and twirl a mustache like a cliched villain. But that's not required for the Evil alignment (no matter what some people might tell you). Thog enjoys wanton carnage and destruction because it makes him feel good. And that's all you need to know to peg him at CE.

Thog is the perfect embodiment of the Psychopathic Manchild (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PsychopathicManchild), emphasis on the Psychopathic and with a subversion of Dumb is Good (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DumbIsGood) thrown in for good measure.

But, please, let's not start this debate again. It's almost as bad as the "Belkar is CN arguments". :smallwink:

ETA::: Please don't confuse the concepts of Mean Spirited or Hate Filled Personalities and Evil. :smallsmile: They may mix and match in many characters, but they ain't prerequisites for being Evil. There has been many an Evil person that were filled with happiness and cheer. Probably because they enjoyed their work, or something like that.

If you want a classic example look no further than Bangladesh Dupree of Girl Genius (http://girlgeniusonline.com/index.php). Psychotic as a wolverine on LSD, but she's a happy psychotic as a wolverine on LSD character. :smallwink:

4177052


I agree with everything Shatteredtower said. :smallsmile:

But to add a bit, someone who commits hundreds of evil acts, but occasionally Pets the Dog (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PetTheDog), doesn't suddenly shift alignment. Just as someone who is massively good, and then suddenly curses out a barmaid doesn't suddenly shift to Neutral.

Belkar is Chaotic Evil.
Thog is Chaotic Evil.
Redcloak is Lawful Evil.
Haley is Chaotic Good. Barely. :smallwink:

Yes you can find isolated examples when taken out of context that will show that these characters don't always act like the sterotypical example of their alignment. But that just proves that they're well rounded 3D characters and not One Trick Ponies.

Okay, Belkar might be a One Trick Pony, but I stand by my comment on the rest. :smalltongue:

I'm going to say something radcial here. When it comes to alignment both intent and actions matter. As for which matters more, well it depends. In the case of Redcloak, he constantly uses Evil means to accomplish what he thinks is a Good goal. Whether it's actually Good for the Goblin Race to be rules by Xykon/Redcloak/The Dark One/<Insert Random Ruler Of Your Choice HERE> is a matter of debate.

Yes, Redcloak feels conflicted over what he feels he has to do. And, yes, Redcloak will occasionally step back from the brink of Cartoon Villnay. But he's still evil. By actions and intents.

PS: "By Any Means Necessary" is a hallmark of a Neutral Evil, not a pure Neutral one. And since Redcloak is exceedingly Lawful, that means he is Lawful Evil. Albeit one with the potential to shift to LN one day. But that's all it is: potential.

PPS: I would think that one would agree that Roy, Miko and Durkon all had radically different temperments, reactions to situations, and outlooks on life. Yet they were all LG. So if different LG people can react to the same situation differently, why can't different LE people? :smallsmile:

4026496


.... Here is The Super Condensed Argument For Why Thog Is Chaotic Evil:

Thog has an INT that is 3 or above, therefore he has an alignment. (His Chaotic nature is not in dispute)
Thog knows right from wrong. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0367.html) (Yet he still commits hundreds of evil acts [well over 400 murders at last count])
We've seen people who have childlike Intelligence arrive in the LG afterlife. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html) (So the fact that he is easily impressionable and childlike has been nullified)

In the immortal words of Tony Kornheiser: That's it! That's the list! :smallbiggrin:

Thog may have the potential to be CN, but he sure hasn't acted on it yet for any real length of time. Sad? Perhaps. But a brief span of acting CNish does not negate a lifetime of wallowing in CE behavior.

3588830



has he shown any evidence that he can comprehend good and evil?

Yes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0367.html)

Thog knows right from wrong. This is an undeniable fact. Furthermore, we have seen someone with literally the intelligence of a child in "heaven" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html), so even if you accepted that argument, it would be out.

Thog in the bonus material and in the online comic has admitted to nearly 500 murders in civilized towns. He has been seen torturing and holding people in degrading situations for nothing more than personal enjoyment. He is seen time and time again revealing in wanton destruction and mayhem.

Is he loyal to Nale and Sabine? Yep. So what? Evil people can be loyal and have friendships, you know. Now I will admit that Thog is more Chaotic than Evil. And perhaps in the right circumstances he might be dragged to CN. But at the moment he is wallowing, and yes I do mean to use that term in senseless destruction.

He is in many ways a Happy, Stupid version of Belkar. What I mean by that is both Belkar and Thog love to kill. In Belkar's case it's because he loves hearing squeals of pain and cries for mercy. In Thog's case it's because he finds wanton destruction fun and thrilling.

Just because someone is childlike, it doesn't mean they get a pass for the horrible evil they do. And just because they "hang out" with people who are bad influences, it doesn't mean they get a free pass there either, at least on the alignment scale.

Thog not only enjoys killing, but revels in it.
Thog willingly hangs out with Supremely Evil People because they are "fun".
Thog has been seen to capture and degrade people, so he can keep them as pets.
Thog has thought resisting arrest was a wonderful time to play.
Thog attacked a friend of Elan, even though it was painfully obvious that Elan didn't want her to be attacked.

And I could go on and on. The bottom line is just because someone is capable of forming friendships and is capable of doing things that aren't motivated by malice, that doesn't mean they are magically Neutral. Thog would have to stop going on murderous rampages and would have to find a channel for his violent streak for a very long time before he got to the CN area of the Alignment scale.

Are Xykon, Belkar, and Thog all different? You betcha. But just like Roy, Durkon, and Miko (all LG) were different, so too are Xykon, Belkar, and Thog. If we must make allowances for Thog's extreme Chaotic Behavior, we can say that he has his ticket already punched for Pandemonium (the more Chaotic CE plane) than the Abyss (the "pure" CE plane). And that's fine.

Still doesn't change the fact that Thog is currently very CE. :smallwink:


Alternatively, it'd be like training a recalcitrant dog. You work and work and work at it, and you think you're doing fine until one day you come home and there's blood all over the couch.

This is one of the best analogies I've seen when it comes to Thog. :smallsmile:

Just imagine all of the hard work a party would put into "reforming" Thog. The trouble would be that if you left him alone for half a day, you might very well stumble upon 20 homicides. And all because the Ice Cream Parlor ran out of Fudge Ripple. :smallwink:

We even see a glimpse of this when Elan appealed to Thog not to attack when he was battling the LG. Thog said "OK" more or less, and then went to bash Haley into unconsciousness.

So while Thog might (and I emphasize might) be trainable, he really is a walking, talking, ticking time bomb.

3421277


Just to completely smash the Thog = Chaotic Neutral argument....

In Rich's World, Evil people can form deep and lasting friendships.

I know that some gamers like to pull out the "He helped a friend!! That's a Good act, and therefore <Insert Character Here> is Neutral!!!" card.

Well, no, it isn't. As Rich commented in one of his gaming articles here (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/XbsQgS9YYu9g3HZBAGE.html) villains can have just the same range of emotional needs that everyone else has. Sure you can make a villain an amoral psychopath like Xykon. But you can also make them a complicated villain like Redcloak.

So while Thog may every once in a while do something that might be considered Good, it is far outweighed by the heinous Evil he commits (not to mention that the friends he usually tries to help are Evil).

Thog knows Right from Wrong.... He just doesn't care

Other Thog defenders point to his "childlike" qualities, as if that absolved him of his crimes. They will even say that he is literally to stupid to know any better. Well, this is flat out wrong. First off, in DnD anyone who has an INT score over 2 has an alignment (or rather, anyone over an INT of 2 is considered to have at least some level of "human" intellegence and is therefore not automatically pegged as True Neutral, like animals are). This is under the theory that, at some fundamental level, the creature in question knows Right from Wrong. Besides, Thog already knows when he is guilty of a crime, and readily admits it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0367.html) Furthermore, we have seen children with alignments (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html), so even if Thog was found to have the intellect of a child, it doesn't excuse his behavior.

Thog's Ideas of What Things Are, Aren't Exactly What They Seem

Of course, some people will pull out the Puppy Card and say, anyone who likes Puppies can't be all bad. I will simply remind people that what Thog thinks of as a Puppy isn't exactly what other people might think of when it comes to that term (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html). In other words, his claims that he would love to have Puppies as pets and that he would be a "responsible parent" don't exactly stand up to scrutiny.

Yes Thog is Carefree and Funny.... So What

Finally, I think that a lot of people peg Thog as CN because they see him as a Happy Go-Lucky Free Spirit who just follows his whims. And hey, that's what Chaotic Neutral characters do, right? Well yeah, sure. But if Mr. Happy Go-Lucky Free Spirit spends all of his time on murderous rampages filled with wanton slaughter, then you know what? He ain't Chaotic Neutral. That person is Chaotic Evil.

But lets not forget something. Much like Belkar, Thog exists for us to laugh at his antics. Thog is around to be the Comic Relief of the Linear Guild, and for us to smirk at the Violent Out-of-Control Drunken Idiotic Barbarian. And Thog is also supposed to be a contrast to the machiavellian plotting of Nale and the streetwise seductive nature of Sabine. He also is showing a different face of Evil than the other villains that populate the OotS, that is the Loyal Henchman Who Is Hanging Out With Team Evil Coz He likes Them, And He Gets To Slaughter People.

-------------------------------

And this doesn't even get into the whole "He aids and abets the schemes of Evil characters" arguments. Yes, he befriended Not-Nale. And yes, he asked for a hug when the OotS defeated Nale. This just shows that he easily imprints on people. However his time alone with Roy (when they were going after the various sigils) shows that he has very violent impulses. And if that didn't show it, I would think that Thog attacking Haley when Elan implored him not to, would further convince people.

Now, under the right circumstances (say always hanging out with Elan and never coming near Nale), could Thog have eventually become Chaotic Neutral? Perhaps. But from his actions and his intentions, Thog is currently Chaotic Evil, and it doesn't look like that will change any time soon. Besides, we literally have no evidence that Elan could have been a good enough example on Thog to change his ways for more than a short period of time.

===================================

I think that just about says it all, really. :smalltongue:

[EvilRoeSlade]

Well, he might be Neutral Evil. I don't know that I've seen him lean toward either the lawful or chaotic axis.

[factotum]

i still say hes neutral, he just dosent seem evil to me, sure he follows an evil leader, but he has the ability to and will do good things if he feels so inclined.

Please, name something he's done in the entire run of the comic that could be described as Good. Rescuing Nale doesn't count, because for an evil minion to try to rescue their master when they're in trouble (which is what Thog thought he was doing...boy, that must have been great for Elan to find someone dim enough that he could actually outwit him!) is what you'd EXPECT them to do...no Good impulses required.

As for Law/Chaos, I'm firmly on the side of chaos. See strip #252, where Thog says that he's only delaying a boredom-driven rampage because he's eating ice cream...

[Porthos]

As for Law/Chaos, I'm firmly on the side of chaos. See strip #252, where Thog says that he's only delaying a boredom-driven rampage because he's eating ice cream...

Quoted for truth.

If Thog ain't Chaotic, then no one is in the comic. After all, paraphrasing what I said above, just because someone commits 100 Chaotic Acts and 5 Lawful Acts, that doesn't all of a sudden make them Neutral.

I don't know where this whole idea of "Chaotic = Can Never Have a Coherent Thought in Their Head Nor Can They Ever be Loyal to a Cause/Person" came from, but I wish people would stop saying things like that. Coz if that was the case, then pretty much only the Slaad qualify as Chaotic.

And I don't think that's what the makers of DnD intended. :smalltongue:

[Querzis]

I don't know where this whole idea of "Chaotic = Can Never Have a Coherent Thought in Their Head Nor Can They Ever be Loyal to a Cause/Person" came from

You know, what really annoy me about this one is that being loyal to a friend or anyone you like or love over anything else is chaotic! Chaotic act on whims and feeling, therefore anyone who prefer being loyal to a friend then to his king or his duty or that put the desire of his friends above anyone else is acting in a chaotic way. Of course he obey Nale and Sabine, he love them. He consider them as his family. And even though Nale and Sabine are his family, they are still afraid of him and his boredom driven rampage. Lets just say if you can actually think hes anything else then chaotic, you dont know anything about order and chaos. Hes the most chaotic character in the freaking comic.

Thog is a lot more dangerous and evil then Nale or Sabine as far as I'm concerned. He loves killing and torturing and the only way to stop him from killing is to make him do another thing he like. Yes, if he was raised with people like Elan, he could have become CG...so what? If Nale had lived Elan live, hes the one who would be CG now while Elan would be LE. Even though I know many elements of your personnality are there at birth, good and evil depend pretty much just on how you were raised (except in some case of insanity). Thog could change...who cares? Hes very evil right now.

By the way, I hate how some people compare Thog and the MiTD. If left alone Thog go on boredom driven rampage. If left alone, MiTD play games with people and bring back their purse to lady.

[EvilRoeSlade]

As for Law/Chaos, I'm firmly on the side of chaos. See strip #252, where Thog says that he's only delaying a boredom-driven rampage because he's eating ice cream...

Yeah but I get the feeling that his boredom-driven rampages are pretty consistent behavior for him, thus Neutral Evil.

[Nychta]

I was rooting for either Chaotic stupid or true stupid, but meh.

[Morty]

By the way, I hate how some people compare Thog and the MiTD. If left alone Thog go on boredom driven rampage. If left alone, MiTD play games with people and bring back their purse to lady.

Indeed. When Redcloak and Xykon aren't around, MiTD is dim, but nice and friendly, neutral at worst. When Nale and Sabine aren't around, Thog gets bored and cleaves someone.

[krossbow]

Yeah but I get the feeling that his boredom-driven rampages are pretty consistent behavior for him, thus Neutral Evil.



Logic like this just infuriates me.

Thog goes on boredom drive rampages yes, but they are completely random ones for petty reasons. It could be about anything really, and it might cause thog to go on a boredom driven rampage.


By your logic Belkar is not only neutral but lawful because killing at random is consistent for him.

[Sylian]

Thog is evil. He is a mass-murderer who kills stuff just for fun... Not for profit, but for fun. Chaotic Evil, probably.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Logic like this just infuriates me.

Thog goes on boredom drive rampages yes, but they are completely random ones for petty reasons. It could be about anything really, and it might cause thog to go on a boredom driven rampage.


By your logic Belkar is not only neutral but lawful because killing at random is consistent for him.

Does he go on boredom driven rampages though? For one comic he threatened to, but that's really all you're drawing your argument on. We've never actually seen him simply get bored and start destroying things.

Unlike Belkar, his behavior is consistent. He does whatever Nale tells him to. Belkar does whatever he feels like, which covers a variety of things.

By your logic Roy is chaotic because he doesn't always do the same thing over and over again. AHAH. SEE WHAT I DID THERE??

[factotum]

Does he go on boredom driven rampages though? For one comic he threatened to, but that's really all you're drawing your argument on.

Nale and Sabine were genuinely afraid of being out of ice-cream, and they know Thog better than we do! He also helped Nale kill over 400 citizens in Cliffport...

[krossbow]

Thog killed the policeman in Cliffport who tried to arrest him without a moment's hesitation and a disturbing amount of glee. He Beats the snot out of haley because she's in the way of him having a good time and icecream. He begins plotting tortures for the order of the stick without provication (that smile on his face as he holds the record is plain malicious).





Thog doesn't just act evil because people tell him too. He also is quite random in his impulses, killing an maiming in whatever way amuses him best.

To argue that this is not chaotic behaviour is a complete misunderstanding of what chaotic and lawful alignments entail.

[EvilRoeSlade]

You're right of course, and I agree. I just wanted to play devil's advocate for a moment.

[keeperoflore]

I was rooting for either Chaotic stupid or true stupid, but meh.

correction, ima go with chaotic stupid rather than chaotic neutral. hes to stupid to realize that evil is bad.

[Ron Miel]

Nale and Sabine were genuinely afraid of being out of ice-cream, and they know Thog better than we do! He also helped Nale kill over 400 citizens in Cliffport...

And how many sentient beings have OOTS killed? Either directlyand personally or indirectly by assisting the soldiers with enlarge person spells. And most of them are good aligned, right? If Thog had killed 400 in the battle, would you complain about that?

Thog thinks that Nale is a good person. Within his mind the people he killed are the baddies. He thinks they are enemies to be beaten. And in alignment it's intentions that count, rather than results, right? He didn't kill those 400 people out of cruelty, but because he's stupid enough to be fooled easily.

I say again, he's essentially a good person who has been steered wrongly by some very bad people.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Thog alignment "Ice Cream and Puppies". Argument over. *smash*

[EvilRoeSlade]

And how many sentient beings have OOTS killed? Either directlyand personally or indirectly by assisting the soldiers with enlarge person spells. And most of them are good aligned, right? If Thog had killed 400 in the battle, would you complain about that?

Thog thinks that Nale is a good person. Within his mind the people he killed are the baddies. He thinks they are enemies to be beaten. And in alignment it's intentions that count, rather than results, right? He didn't kill those 400 people out of cruelty, but because he's stupid enough to be fooled easily.

I say again, he's essentially a good person who has been steered wrongly by some very bad people.

Actually you're wrong, it's results and not intentions that matter as far as D&D alignment is concerned. I disagree with you on your point though, I doubt he cares whether the people he kills are good or bad, as far as I can tell, he just likes killing.

[FujinAkari]

Actually you're wrong, it's results and not intentions that matter as far as D&D alignment is concerned.

The Deva disagrees.

[Toadie]

Chaotic Neutral.


Definetly:
Chaotic - for behaviour that you can't really predict as there are no rules/laws/whatever he follows (fun doesn't count).
Neutral - He wouldn't make himself a martyr to save innocent (he slew few of those himself).

Definetly not:
Lawful - Barbarian :smallwink:
Good - as this would go for care for others. He feels no pity when butchering the police for example.
Evil - ok he kills quite a lot, but compared to :belkar: he's really a few levels lower. He likes to smash things, he also likes puppies - it's a matter of like. Belkster kills whenever he has the opportunity to do so. Thog - no I don't think so.
True Neutral - He would be aware of the laws and at least in some point would respect them. No I don't think so.

[FujinAkari]

Evil - ok he kills quite a lot, but compared to :belkar: he's really a few levels lower. He likes to smash things, he also likes puppies - it's a matter of like. Belkster kills whenever he has the opportunity to do so. Thog - no I don't think so.

... belkar is also measured in KILONAZI'S. By -definition- you can be less evil than thousands and thousands of Nazi's and still be evil :P

[Toadie]

True, but not all the soldiers who kill on a war are evil...

Besides, I couldn't see :xykon::belkar::redcloak::sabine::nale: working for a good cause without a personal interest in that.

:thog: on the other hand wanted to join up with nale, not to kill again, but he missed his "friend".

One more thing - group hug strip - he likes hugs. He doesn't use every possible chance to strike a blow to others.

No, he's definetly not evil.

[busterswd]

I'd actually say he was initially chaotic neutral, but because of subsequent actions and association with Nale, his alignment plopped into evil territory.

In terms of Lawful vs. Chaotic, the biggest motivation for Thog is Thog. He does pretty much what he feels like doing when he feels like doing it, which is pretty chaotic behavior; he'll follow his own impulses ahead of any established authority. He does not follow Nale out of duty or loyalty but out of friendship, ie: he enjoys being with Nale, so he'll listen to what he'll say. In other words, he has literally no regard for laws and any overlap in action is due to coincidence more than a conscious effort to obey it.

Good vs. Evil... Thog MAY have been chaotic neutral once. Imagine Thog under the control of Elan and Roy, instead of Nale. For the most part, I can imagine them finding other things to entertain him besides violence, and any random acts of violence he commited could be chalked up to stupidity (think: Lenny from Of Mice and Men). He could be a powerful force for good on their team that occasionally does reprehensible things out of stupidity.

But he's killed way too many innocent people to really be neutral anymore. Regardless of how dumb he is, he's done a lot of evil things.

Chaotic Evil.

[Toadie]

Question is: Can you be evil, if you are not fully responsible for your actions?

Animals kill for food and fun (what do cats do to mice when they catch one? Crocodiles?) and still are not evil. Let's not confuse brutal with evil.

[Red XIV]

Actually you're wrong, it's results and not intentions that matter as far as D&D alignment is concerned.
O RLY? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) That appears not to be the case in this campaign world.

[krossbow]

O RLY? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) That appears not to be the case in this campaign world.

But the thing is thog KNOWS what he does is wrong. His confession in cliffport basically cements this. Thog realizes his actions bring pain and suffering to others, and he knows that its wrong to do the things.


He just doesn't CARE. Thog may be amusing, but that only lasts till he decides that you'd make a nice stretch armstrong, your suffering be damned.

[Toadie]

Doesn't care is neutral.

Does care is either good or evil. Depents on whether he cares to bring suffering or to prevent it.

Thog does evil things. Conciously? I don't think so.
Thog also does good things. Conciously? I don't think so.

This leaves him in between.

[brilliantlight]

But the thing is thog KNOWS what he does is wrong. His confession in cliffport basically cements this. Thog realizes his actions bring pain and suffering to others, and he knows that its wrong to do the things.


He just doesn't CARE. Thog may be amusing, but that only lasts till he decides that you'd make a nice stretch armstrong, your suffering be damned.

Exactly, :thog: is clearly CE. What confuses people is that he is probably redeemable. Unlike :nale: or:xykon: Thog could become good if he started hanging out with the right people such as :roy: or :elan:. The other two are just evil to the core.

[brilliantlight]

Doesn't care is neutral.

Does care is either good or evil. Depents on whether he cares to bring suffering or to prevent it.

Thog does evil things. Conciously? I don't think so.
Thog also does good things. Conciously? I don't think so.

This leaves him in between.

Thog is clearly sapient and as such knows the difference between good and evil. He may be an idiot but he knows he is guilty when he commits a crime. He flat out says he is guilty to the Clifford Police so he does know!

[Jural]

Actually you're wrong, it's results and not intentions that matter as far as D&D alignment is concerned.

I never read it that way. But clearly if this is how the alignments were set up, Thog must be evil.

However, I believe intention is a huge part of D&D alignments.

As for Thog, it's 99% or more likely he is Chaotic Evil, but I think it's possible and consistent wuth the comic to imagine him as Neutral Evil or Chaotic Neutral. Unlikely, but not impossible.

On the other hand, I think it is actually impossible (At this point) to imagine Belkar as anything except evil (and I personally would go with Chaotic Evil, but Neutral Evil would be feasible.)

After Haley helped form the resistance to help people, I find it hard to believe she is not chaotic good. But I'm not as certain there.

[Toadie]

Thog is clearly sapient and as such knows the difference between good and evil. He may be an idiot but he knows he is guilty when he commits a crime. He flat out says he is guilty to the Clifford Police so he does know!

He said it? Or was it a part of Nale's plan for Thog to say that? Otherwise Elan wouldn't end up in prison.

[tribble]

I think the question is whether he has the brains to understand that his actions affect the world around him. if not, he doesn't understand that it hurts to be cleaved, and therefore as far as he knows, he hasn't done any harm.

[brilliantlight]

He said it? Or was it a part of Nale's plan for Thog to say that? Otherwise Elan wouldn't end up in prison.


He says it when Elan is ALREADY in prison along with him and has no reason to lie. In fact if the gaurd wasn't confused on what :thog: said he would realize that Elan and Nale switched places
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0367.html

[turkishproverb]

I think the question is whether he has the brains to understand that his actions affect the world around him. if not, he doesn't understand that it hurts to be cleaved, and therefore as far as he knows, he hasn't done any harm.

you know, this is an actual point given his childlike behavior. alot of kids don't know pulling the wings of a fly hurts it until you explain.

[tyckspoon]

you know, this is an actual point given his childlike behavior. alot of kids don't know pulling the wings of a fly hurts it until you explain.

Flies are non-sentient creatures that lack any means of communicating with a human (or humanoid, as the case may be.) The only reasonable way to know that you're actually causing it pain by removing its wings is to be told so by somebody else, especially if you're too young to have developed overly much empathy yet. Thog, on the other hand, has been hurting and killing other sentient communicative beings. They have been telling him that what he does hurts them with every death-scream, moan, and plea for mercy. It defies credulity that Thog is not aware that his actions hurt people after 400+ known murders. Rich only knows how many other unmentioned murders he's committed.

[krossbow]

Flies are non-sentient creatures that lack any means of communicating with a human (or humanoid, as the case may be.) The only reasonable way to know that you're actually causing it pain by removing its wings is to be told so by somebody else, especially if you're too young to have developed overly much empathy yet. Thog, on the other hand, has been hurting and killing other sentient communicative beings. They have been telling him that what he does hurts them with every death-scream, moan, and plea for mercy. It defies credulity that Thog is not aware that his actions hurt people after 400+ known murders. Rich only knows how many other unmentioned murders he's committed.

and lets not forget THIS. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html)



Someone saying "Help me" is about as clear as you can get that your hurting someone.

[keeperoflore]

Flies are non-sentient creatures that lack any means of communicating with a human (or humanoid, as the case may be.) The only reasonable way to know that you're actually causing it pain by removing its wings is to be told so by somebody else, especially if you're too young to have developed overly much empathy yet. Thog, on the other hand, has been hurting and killing other sentient communicative beings. They have been telling him that what he does hurts them with every death-scream, moan, and plea for mercy. It defies credulity that Thog is not aware that his actions hurt people after 400+ known murders. Rich only knows how many other unmentioned murders he's committed.

what if thog thinks that Nale is good, and that anyone Nale says for him to kill is bad? he is stupid enough to believe that. and from what ive been able to figure out, bad people scream in pain when they get hurt as do all vocal people/things in the world

[FujinAkari]

what if thog thinks that Nale is good, and that anyone Nale says for him to kill is bad? he is stupid enough to believe that. and from what ive been able to figure out, bad people scream in pain when they get hurt as do all vocal people/things in the world

This is a fantasy you are trying to impose on the comic, not a theory based in the comic.

But even -if- we assume that was the case, it becomes rather irrelevant. The Deva section of the comic rather clearly specifies that your intentions -and your actions- are considered, and Thog very consistently acts evilly. Additionally, his -intention- is to help Nale commit evil acts.

Even if he thought Nale were good, he has a moral obligation not to go along with plans which involve kidnapping uninvolved family members, or wantonly slaughtering legions of police officers and civilians in the pursuit of this "good" plan.

Roy very nearly lost his lawful status because of -one- Chaotic act, and only retained it because he realized the error of his ways and corrected it in life. Thog has committed -hundreds- of Evil acts and never repented for any of them.

See the difference?

[EvilRoeSlade]

O RLY? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) That appears not to be the case in this campaign world.

That's not really my point.

Good and Evil aren't philosophies in D&D. They are real, spiritual forces. If somebody commits an evil act, the forces of evil grow stronger. If somebody commits a good act, the forces of good grow stronger. If you intentionally commit an evil act for the greater good, evil has won. Maybe you didn't have any better options, but nonetheless, evil has grown stronger, and you're the one to thank for it.

If a madman poisons a well and kills an entire community because he believes that everyone in the village is a demon in human form, then he's committed an evil act. If this sort of thing is normal behavior for him, then his alignment is evil without a doubt. It doesn't matter that in his own mind he's doing a good deed.

So by killing innocents, Thog is evil. Whether he knows any better is inconsequential. The Deva said that trying to do good makes you good, whether you succeed or fail, and this is true. But what she meant by that was good in the non-abstract, real form. When she spoke of a concept of good she was referring to something that has no shads of gray, and can be universally defined.

Whatever Thog's deluded version of doing good is, it's meaningless in comparison to what good actually is. He's not attempting to obey the cosmic force of good, thus he isn't good.

As for the law/chaotic access, check it out.


A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesn't have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has. The criminal who robs and murders to get what she wants is neutral evil.

Clearly the section in italics doesn't fit with Thog. He is both restless and conflict-loving, though he doesn't possess these traits in the abundance that Belkar does. Everything else is pretty much a match though.


A chaotic evil character does whatever his greeed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredectible. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him. The demented sorcerer pursuing mad schemes of vengeance and havoc is chaotic evil.

The linear guild is not poorly organized. Nale doesn't use force to control Thog (by contrast, Roy DID use force to control Belkar, or the threat of it anyway). And Thog doesn't try to assassinate Nale.

If you look at the relationship between Belkar and Roy, you can see how a chaotic evil person really acts (and after Roy's death you see what happens when there isn't anyone to control him). Thog doesn't act anything like that. He's consistent in his evil, and content with being a minion, though he doesn't feel obligated to stay that way if the situation calls for something else. Neutral Evil.

[krossbow]

Neutral Evil.



Alright, can we just get this off the table right now people? In dungeons and dragons a barbarian who stops being chaotic can no longer rage. As we have seen thog rage, we know he must be chaotic.

[keeperoflore]

So by killing innocents, Thog is evil. Whether he knows any better is inconsequential. The Deva said that trying to do good makes you good, whether you succeed or fail, and this is true. But what she meant by that was good in the non-abstract, real form. When she spoke of a concept of good she was referring to something that has no shads of gray, and can be universally defined.

and your basing this off of what you "think" she meant? because i clearly see no specifc reference to what kind of good she was referring to.

im seriusly not seeing how he is evil, but it seems that everyone else thinks he is, thank god i hardly ever agree with the collective, because alot of times if i changed my mind, i would be wrong.

gah, i really need to re-read the whole comic, because if all the "evils" that thog is getting are true then i missed something BIG within the storyline.

[Spiryt]

im seriusly not seeing how he is evil, but it seems that everyone else thinks he is, thank god i hardly ever agree with the collective, because alot of times if i changed my mind, i would be wrong.

gah, i really need to re-read the whole comic, because if all the "evils" that thog is getting are true then i missed something BIG within the storyline.

Dude, seriosuly.

Thog is killing people Nale is telling him to kill. He is using physical duress, again just when the Nale is telling him to. He is smiling.

The fact that he is servile doesn't change the fact that he's evil.

Personaly, I was able to call him Chaotic Neutral in the earlier strips, but later his evilness became rather obvious.

[R.O.A.]

Part of being good is taking responsibility for your actions and having some examination of them, so I don't think he can swing that way.

But surely part of being Evil is considering your outcomes and deciding to disregard the responsibility? If you are incabable of understanding the consequences, can you really be said to be making a decision to do Evil? From all we've seen, Thog is willing to take responsibilty for things he understands (puppies, Nale needs rescueing when lost), but has shown no compreshension of results of killing innocents.

Pulling out my PH (3.5) I see CN includes the phrase "He avoids authority, resents restrictions", thus explaining "resisting arrest is fun!"

Chaotic Evil however, requiers a "lust for destruction" not to mention "greed" and "hatred", which are all qualities I'm yet to see displayed in Thog.

respectfully,
Roa

[keeperoflore]

Dude, seriosuly.

Thog is killing people Nale is telling him to kill. He is using physical duress, again just when the Nale is telling him to. He is smiling.

The fact that he is servile doesn't change the fact that he's evil.

Personaly, I was able to call him Chaotic Neutral in the earlier strips, but later his evilness became rather obvious.

i said it once i will say it again, Thog can quite possibly actually TRULY believe that Nale is the good guy and that people he says to kill are bad, there is no real basis on this statement other than Thog is stupid enough to actually believe this.

no matter what people seem to say there ignoring something, we dont have all the facts about Thogs past or how is mind works. when/if we ever do, then we can come to a base conclusion but before that, its all speculation unless Rich says exactaly what is alignment is.

all that being said, i still say hes Chaotic Neutral.

[busterswd]

For people citing the Deva, important difference between Roy and Thog:

Roy feels remorse for things he does wrong and tries to actively fix it, which is enough to bump him into good territory. The Deva also mentions that if he his actions didn't reflect at least an effort to be good, (going back for Elan), that would've been neutral behavior in her book. Remorse alone would be enough to make his behavior neutral, however.

Thog displays none of this. There's no redeeming value, no "good" intent behind it or no introspective conflict that he must follow Nale in spite of doing bad things. He's remorseless. While not necesarily an evil quality, if someone remorselessly does amoral things, it doesn't free them of being evil. (I'd throw in real life examples of serial killers who feel peachy keen about slaughtering innocents, but won't try to derail the thread that way.) In fact, it's evident he enjoys doing the evil things he does. It's hard to imagine Thog doing something he REALLY didn't want to do.

[busterswd]

i said it once i will say it again, Thog can quite possibly actually TRULY believe that Nale is the good guy and that people he says to kill are bad, there is no real basis on this statement other than Thog is stupid enough to actually believe this.

no matter what people seem to say there ignoring something, we dont have all the facts about Thogs past or how is mind works. when/if we ever do, then we can come to a base conclusion but before that, its all speculation unless Rich says exactaly what is alignment is.

all that being said, i still say hes Chaotic Neutral.

But he's SMILING while he kills and hurts things, and it's evident from what he says that he enjoys doing it.

The whole argument that he doesn't know that hurting people is something he shouldn't do goes out the window when he refrains from fighting Elan. He makes a choice to not hurt someone he likes, because he likes the person. If he was unable to differentiate whether causing suffering is good or bad, he would've hit Elan with the door right before smacking Haley.




But surely part of being Evil is considering your outcomes and deciding to disregard the responsibility? If you are incabable of understanding the consequences, can you really be said to be making a decision to do Evil? From all we've seen, Thog is willing to take responsibilty for things he understands (puppies, Nale needs rescueing when lost), but has shown no compreshension of results of killing innocents.

Pulling out my PH (3.5) I see CN includes the phrase "He avoids authority, resents restrictions", thus explaining "resisting arrest is fun!"

Chaotic Evil however, requiers a "lust for destruction" not to mention "greed" and "hatred", which are all qualities I'm yet to see displayed in Thog.

respectfully,
Roa

Chaotic evil does not *require* the things the manual lists. Belkar, for example, has never shown greed. Hatred, in spades. Lust for destruction, of course. Yet he's CE.

[keeperoflore]

whatever, refer to my last post yada yada blah blah blah. we have to little info to draw a conclusion.

hes Chaotic Neutral till im proven DEFINITIVELY otherwise, atleast in my book

[Hippoboy]

[QUOTE=Slaanesh;4682443]Good? let me quote: "resisting arrest is fun!" as he murders several people. I agree. Chaotic. Evil. 100%. get over it.

QUOTE]

Just because you enjoy doing some thing bad doesn't make you evil.

But yes he is probably classed as evil.

Thinking on the alignments wouldn't Thog be Neutral Evil, their just for profit and thog follows whoever has the most ample supply of ice-cream so to make thog do good, bribe with ice cream

[Sylian]

Proof: http://www.cafepress.com/orderofthestick.11485830
I'll quote the Book of Vile Darkness:

In a world of black-and-white distinctions between good and evil, killing innocents to save yourself is an evil act. Sacrificing yourself for the good of others is a good act. It's a high standard, but that's the way it is.
Another quote.

Killing is one of the most horrible acts that a creature can commit. Murder is a killing of an intelligent creature for a nefarious purpose: theft, personal gain, perverse pleasure, or the like.
Has Thog ever murdered anyone? Yes. Why? For perverse pleasure. Is that evil? Yes. How many times has he done it? Several hundreds of times. Why do you think he's Neutral?

[busterswd]

whatever, refer to my last post yada yada blah blah blah. we have to little info to draw a conclusion.

hes Chaotic Neutral till im proven DEFINITIVELY otherwise, atleast in my book

You're using the Miko argument, which has pretty much been trampled on by the comic.

Conviction that you are doing something good means diddly if it's outright evil.

Edit: Also, he causes pain and suffering to things on top of murdering them. It's never GOOD to torture people, even if they're evil.

[keeperoflore]

information in a dire situation that can save millions of lives is a good reason to use torture, this is completely irrelevant to Thogs alignment, but i just wanted to prove you wrong.

[busterswd]

information in a dire situation that can save millions of lives is a good reason to use torture, this is completely irrelevant to Thogs alignment, but i just wanted to prove you wrong.

No, it's really not. Torture is never good behavior, it's a necessary evil at best. Try again, though?

[keeperoflore]

now that i think about it, my answer was more of an opinion, just like all alignment thoughts in this thead.

[busterswd]

now that i think about it, my answer was more of an opinion, just like all alignment thoughts in this thead.

Opinions can be wrong, especially when you're debating something that has a concrete answer. Good and evil in DnD isn't a matter of what your personal morality is or opinions are, there's an actual alignment scale.

[keeperoflore]

yet this comic has not followed all the guidelines set by DnD rules now has it, whats is to say this comic follows the way it was written in the handbook?

[Spiryt]

Sheer malice on his face when he hear that Celia can't be rescured (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html)

[busterswd]

yet this comic has not followed all the guidelines set by DnD rules now has it, whats is to say this comic follows the way it was written in the handbook?

My point is saying "it's my opinion so I can't be proven wrong" is a faulty statement, it's VERY possible to have a wrong opinion.

Thog is evil.

1. He kills innocent people on a regular basis. Even if he thinks he's doing something good, as shown with Miko, good intentions alone won't save him from being evil.
2. He makes people suffer. It's arguable that there is a legitimate reason to torture someone, but it's never a good thing to torture someone. In addition, he is making people suffer for amusement/boredom's sake, not out of necessity.
3. He is capable of differentiating a good action towards somebody as opposed to a harmful action.
4. He does not do good acts unless they are aligned with his own self interest.

End of story.


Edit: Oh, and considering the comic has seperate, concrete afterlifes for each alignment, I'd say you're wrong on that count too.

[keeperoflore]

that last one seems ALOT like a neutral trait, but eh, there is no "end of story" to this, unless Rich gives an answer, were just going to go back and forth trying to prove our points. when it dosent relay matter one way or the other anyway.

so as for this topic, im just going to stop posting in it, ill still follow it, but unless i see something that proves the answer ima ignore posting in it anymore.


Sheer malice on his face when he hear that Celia can't be rescured (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html)

oh and uh, he was laughing at the fact that they didnt have the scroll that Nale had, given away by his statement not but a few panels away.

[Ron Miel]

and lets not forget THIS. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html)

Someone saying "Help me" is about as clear as you can get that your hurting someone.

Actually, that supports my view. Thog thinks that he is taking care of a puppy. And it's obvious that he is trying to be kind. He loves his "puppy" and wants to take good care of it. The fact that he is actually harming someone is down to stupidity, not malice. He really doesn't understand the harm he's causing.

It's because of things like this that I think he's really a good person, and would be doing good things if Nale didn't lead him astray.

[keeperoflore]

ok i finally got it, we dont know his intentions but im going to assume they are good, just from what ive seen. yes his actions are bad, but the Deva said that both are judged in the final decision. good intentions+bad outcome= neutral or close enough to it.

although is is just an assumption on what i think thog really believes.


and yes i broke my no more posts promise... sue me...

[Spiryt]

oh and uh, he was laughing at the fact that they didnt have the scroll that Nale had, given away by his statement not but a few panels away.

Dude, so what? It's not connected at all, or what? No.

They didn't have a scroll -> they can't break the spell -> inncoent will stay as stone.

The misery of other visibly make him happy, as he can feel the satisfaction of being smarter - even though it's Nale who is smarter of course.

[keeperoflore]

he was laughing at the fact that they didnt have the scroll, not that they couldent break the spell, and yes those are completly different things, they may be able to be linked together, but as they stand they are different.

let me try and think of a way of saying this better.

i doupt this is ay good at discribing what i mean but: Its like me saying "i like watching the World Cup", it dosent mean that i like a specific team, it dosent mean that riots that can be caused by confics in the crowd is good, it just simply means that i like the World Cup.

though if i find a better way of saying it, ill edit this with it.

[Linkavitch]

Chaotic Neutral, i mean come on he cant be evil. although i would say he is chaotic, just because hes not smart enough to know anything about being lawful, although that could also mean he is True Neutral.

I agree with this guy.

[Spiryt]

Chaotic Neutral, i mean come on he cant be evil. although i would say he is chaotic, just because hes not smart enough to know anything about being lawful, although that could also mean he is True Neutral.

I've missed this.

What do you mean by "not being smart enough to being lawful"?

Being lawful has nothing to do with your Intelligence. In fact I would say that Thog is Lawful Evil, if it was possible by the rules, and if I haven't seen his later behaviour.

Reason? He's servile. He follows Nale like dog, and even though he enjoy's random rampages, he can't really imagine living without someone to tell him what to do. This is of course tied to the Intelligence, but in this case more proper statement would be: "Not smart enough to be chaotic".


In this case stating him as Neutral Evil would be more reasonable.

About strip with "stoned" Celia:
Yes, those are connected. Not finding scroll means horrible fate for Celia, maybe even worse by death. He sees it, and it's funny to him. His stupidity doesn't justify him.

[Texas Jedi]

Thog is one of the most evil characters in the comic. His wanton destruction and killing and torturing of innocents is well documented. I find it hard to believe that he is so stupid that he can't tell right from wrong, but he is supposed to remember his part in a rather complicated plan to get back at the OoTS.

[keeperoflore]

1) that post was before i had to much insight into the info i do now

2) i see a connection, though for the life of me i cant think of a better what to put my point. if he is as stupid as he lets on, the for all we know he could not see the connection, he is that stupid from what we know, and stupid people have a WIDE range of ways they can think, just like every other group of people on the intellect scale, though they have more because logic has no meaning to most "stupid" people.

3) im still not seeing why it matters what his alignment in the end is, its not like it will change anything, in terms that Thog would use himself, "Thog funny" thats all there is to it.

[Texas Jedi]

3) im still not seeing why it matters what his alignment in the end is, its not like it will change anything, in terms that Thog would use himself, "Thog funny" thats all there is to it.


I agree with you about that statement. :smallbiggrin:

He is evil though because he loves killing things. I see him as the lovable sidekick but he tags along with Nale because that brings closer to his greatest loves which are Fudge Ripple, and Killing. From the evidence shown in previous comics it might (that is a big Might) go in that order. So in that since he is neutral because if he has plenty of the former he won't commit the latter.

Now here comes the part where the chaotic part of his alignment kicks in. If he gets bored (even with Ice Cream) he will go on a killing rampage so if you keep Thog supplied with Fudge Ripple, and keep him from being bored he won't kill.

The problem though is he has a very short attention span and needs to be stimulated all of the time. So is the fact that when he gets bored causes him to go on a murderous rampage, or is that just an excuse for him to go on a killing rampage (which is what he truly loves to do).

[FujinAkari]

2) i see a connection, though for the life of me i cant think of a better what to put my point. if he is as stupid as he lets on, the for all we know he could not see the connection, he is that stupid from what we know, and stupid people have a WIDE range of ways they can think, just like every other group of people on the intellect scale, though they have more because logic has no meaning to most "stupid" people.

Ugh... why do people keep mentioning that he is stupid?

Thog is able to speak intelligently. Therefore, he is smart enough to make moral choice. Any character with an intelligence of three or higher is able to select any of the nine alignments, therefore his stupidity is not and cannot be a defense.

Chaotic Evil. Get over it.

[Spiryt]

Chaotic Evil. Get over it.

Well, after some consideration, I would think about Neutral Evil. Check my previous post.

It's a possibility IMO.

[krossbow]

Well, after some consideration, I would think about Neutral Evil. Check my previous post.

It's a possibility IMO.



Thog rages. Therefore he is chaotic per D&D rules. As The giant has held to other classes (bard, Paladin) having alignment restrictions, there is no reason to think that he has suddenly decided to ignore them for others.

[Spiryt]

Thog rages. Therefore he is chaotic per D&D rules. As The giant has held to other classes (bard, Paladin) having alignment restrictions, there is no reason to think that he has suddenly decided to ignore them for others.

Maybe take a look at this rules first? They're saying something different than you.


A barbarian who becomes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian. He retains all the other benefits of the class (damage reduction, fast movement, trap sense, and uncanny dodge).

[Logalmier]

Thog is the evil opposite of Roy. Roy is lawful good, so therefore it is likely that Thog is chaotic evil.

[Spiryt]

Thog is the evil opposite of Roy. Roy is lawful good, so therefore it is likely that Thog is chaotic evil.

Well this may be primary (around 50 strip) idea, but I think that everything get a bit beyond that. Particulary, Thog's different behaviour were shown to us.

I'm not really insisting on NE Thog, but I think it's really a possibilty.

[busterswd]

I've missed this.

What do you mean by "not being smart enough to being lawful"?

Being lawful has nothing to do with your Intelligence. In fact I would say that Thog is Lawful Evil, if it was possible by the rules, and if I haven't seen his later behaviour.

Reason? He's servile. He follows Nale like dog, and even though he enjoy's random rampages, he can't really imagine living without someone to tell him what to do. This is of course tied to the Intelligence, but in this case more proper statement would be: "Not smart enough to be chaotic".


In this case stating him as Neutral Evil would be more reasonable.

About strip with "stoned" Celia:
Yes, those are connected. Not finding scroll means horrible fate for Celia, maybe even worse by death. He sees it, and it's funny to him. His stupidity doesn't justify him.


He follows Nale because he wants to though or at the very least, doesn't mind. Imagine Nale giving him an order he really didn't want to follow. Heck, if he was REALLY loyal to Nale he would've outright attacked Elan during their dramatic entrance.

[Spiryt]

He follows Nale because he wants to though or at the very least, doesn't mind. Imagine Nale giving him an order he really didn't want to follow.

Good point, although it would be rather the point if the Thog was more intelligent or self reliable.

So far Nale gave him pretty much orders he theoritically shouldn't want to follow. Being a footstool, cleaning up the floor after guy who wasn't toilet trained (or something like that), and so on.


Heck, if he was REALLY loyal to Nale he would've outright attacked Elan during their dramatic entrance.

That's beacuse he grew loyal to Elan too. Who looks just like Nale, by the way.

[EvilRoeSlade]

If you read the alignment description of Chaotic Evil in the PHB, it indicates pretty strongly that a Chaotic Evil character is never content with being a follower. The only way to lead a Chaotic Evil character is through brute force and the ability to thwart its assassination attempts.

Thog doesn't exhibit this trait at all.

Compare him to Belkar, who dreams of killing Roy, tries to disobey any order that he doesn't like, and is really only kept in line by the fact that there isn't any way he could take on Roy in a straight up fight.

I'd say the fact that he's content with being a follower makes him Neutral Evil (which does NOT preclude his ability to rage).

[Spiryt]

If you read the alignment description of Chaotic Evil in the PHB, it indicates pretty strongly that a Chaotic Evil character is never content with being a follower. The only way to lead a Chaotic Evil character is through brute force and the ability to thwart its assassination attempts.

Thog doesn't exhibit this trait at all.


On the other side, following that guides completely would lead to having 9 types of people everywhere.

But yes, this indicates that Thog indeed can be Neutral Evil guy.

[hamishspence]

If CE was never a follower, how would we get Orc Hordes?

[Spiryt]

If CE was never a follower, how would we get Orc Hordes?

I think here's brute force thing.

But yes, I think that big part of CE orcs is perfectly OK with being followers. In their own way at least.

CE definiton was proabably written more with Chaotic Evil PC's on mind, who are after all "more" than normal mortals as a players (at leat in designers mind, not everyone likes that style). So such strong individual, who is CE indeed doesn't like to be follower.

[ericgrau]

Elan is CG, Thog is "on the opposite end of the alignment spectrum", therefore thog is LE. Done. Furthermore, rich has stated before that his evil characters are more multi-dimensional and realistic than the cliche, and may show behavior like concern for their friends and family.

[Morty]

Elan is CG, Thog is "on the opposite end of the alignment spectrum", therefore thog is LE. Done. Furthermore, rich has stated before that his evil characters are more multi-dimensional and realistic than the cliche, and may show behavior like concern for their friends and family.

Except that barbarians can't be Lawful. So the only debate here is NE vs. CE.

[Spiryt]

Furthermore, rich has stated before that his evil characters are more multi-dimensional and realistic than the cliche, and may show behavior like concern for their friends and family.

This has been noticed, and disscused long ago. Also in this thread.


Elan is CG, Thog is "on the opposite end of the alignment spectrum", therefore thog is LE. Done.

No. First, Thog cannot be lawful and be able to rage. According to D&D rules, and to internal logic of his character too.

While it's possible that he's Neutral Evil, he is too... chaotic to be lawful.

[Yendor]

CE definiton was proabably written more with Chaotic Evil PC's on mind, who are after all "more" than normal mortals as a players (at leat in designers mind, not everyone likes that style). So such strong individual, who is CE indeed doesn't like to be follower.

I think that that part of the CE definition is specifically about those "committed to the spread of evil and chaos". That bit doesn't apply to Thog, but "hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable" surely does.

[Lord Seth]

My vote goes towards Chaotic Neutral.

[keeperoflore]

Except that barbarians can't be Lawful. So the only debate here is NE vs. CE.

wow, it amazes me that somone like you can ignore one of the main debates that have been in this topic. the debate is NE vs CE vs CN and i realy would have to say chaotic is a given. but thats were i stop beliving the collective, i think hes CN because of stupidity reasons, i THINK he has good intentions, but he still does bad things, and by what the Deva told Roy, that would be pretty damn close to CN.

[Spiryt]

wow, it amazes me that somone like you can ignore one of the main debates that have been in this topic. the debate is NE vs CE vs CN and i realy would have to say chaotic is a given. but thats were i stop beliving the collective, i think hes CN because of stupidity reasons, i THINK he has good intentions, but he still does bad things, and by what the Deva told Roy, that would be pretty damn close to CN.

What exaxtly did Deva said to Roy? The "but you were trying" part. In case of Roy it's kinda true. Roy have an ideal, he tries to follow it. He wants to help people, be fair leader and so on.

How exactly Thog fits to it? Does he trie to be Chaotic Neutral? It's not really thing one can "trie to be". Does Thog value being good and tries to do good thing? No. He does things that suits him, or that Nale orders him. Those things are usually harmful and sadistic.

Maybe there is possiblity that he is still CN. But most probably he is CE, or NE.

[keeperoflore]

the deva says your intentions as well as what you actually do are what decide your fate, i for one say his intentions are good(as in he thinks Nale is a good guy) but because Nale is evil the outcome is always bad.

this is based off of what i got from Thogs character, there is no fact in this because we dont actually KNOW what Thog thinks.

[Sylian]

Do you think he felt compassion to those he killed?

[keeperoflore]

i dont realy know, i guess he could for some of them and not for others, but then is he smart enough that he can actualy feel compassion?

[Toadie]

Chaotic Neutral.

Can't make golems evil can you? Thog is a sort of a golem following Nale's orders.

[FujinAkari]

i dont realy know, i guess he could for some of them and not for others, but then is he smart enough that he can actualy feel compassion?

Yes, he has an intellegence higher than three.


Chaotic Neutral.

Can't make golems evil can you? Thog is a sort of a golem following Nale's orders.

No he isn't. Thog is able to make his own choices, he merely chooses to help Nale out because Nale lets him do things he likes, namely slaughter hundreds of innocents.

Thog enjoys it when his axe makes unarmored things go squish.

[Toadie]

You just shot yourself in the leg:smalltongue: If he can do his own choices, why does he need Nale to give him permissions?

[busterswd]

You just shot yourself in the leg:smalltongue: If he can do his own choices, why does he need Nale to give him permissions?

Thog is able to make his own choices, he merely chooses to help Nale out because Nale lets him do things he likes

At least read what you're replying to?

[Setra]

You just shot yourself in the leg:smalltongue: If he can do his own choices, why does he need Nale to give him permissions?
Because he is stupid.

No matter how stupid you are enjoying the suffering of others, I'd like to note, is evil.

Imagine a five year old child. He has a knife. He slowly pushes the knife into your body. You awaken and scream in pain. This little boy somehow decides he likes it, he's in control of you by forcing pain onto you. Suddenly he stabs you, and you fall to the ground limp, dead, and lifeless. The five year old doesn't understand he ended the life of a sentient being, but he enjoyed an act that I feel at a primal level would be understood as bad.

Have you ever seen someone scream in pain from being stabbed? There's something.. about it that makes you just KNOW it was wrong, you can TELL he is suffering, even a five year old could on some level.

But hey maybe he didn't get it the first time around, 400 good enough? Yeah because I'm sure Thog would look at you and then bring his axe into your skull because he finds it amusing.

He. IS. EVIL.

As for CE vs. NE.. well I believe Loyalty to a king or cause or something like that might be lawful, but Loyalty to friends is just Human (Or Orc in this case). Even evil people can have friends.

Even the one he is so loyal to him is fearful of him, because apparently he may go killing his close friends on a whim. Please note the whim part.

I believe Chaotic Evil.

But at least the argument for NE was better than one for CN.

Edit: Now, using Factual Evidence in the comic show me anything he could have done to make up for all of his evil.

[Theodoriph]

We can all make our own choices, but when our boss tells us to do something...we tend to do it. Having an authority figure doesn't mean you're no longer able to make choices. It simply means you've chosen to let that person tell you what to do, generally receiving some benefits in return (e.g. money, targets to slaughter, free ice cream or whatever). You can of course stop choosing to obey, and each time you are told to do something, you weigh that activity against the benefits you receive and make that choice.

[keeperoflore]

Yes, he has an intellegence higher than three.

link to the strip that says this?


Because he is stupid.

No matter how stupid you are enjoying the suffering of others, I'd like to note, is evil.

Imagine a five year old child. He has a knife. He slowly pushes the knife into your body. You awaken and scream in pain. This little boy somehow decides he likes it, he's in control of you by forcing pain onto you. Suddenly he stabs you, and you fall to the ground limp, dead, and lifeless. The five year old doesn't understand he ended the life of a sentient being, but he enjoyed an act that I feel at a primal level would be understood as bad.

Have you ever seen someone scream in pain from being stabbed? There's something.. about it that makes you just KNOW it was wrong, you can TELL he is suffering, even a five year old could on some level.

But hey maybe he didn't get it the first time around, 400 good enough? Yeah because I'm sure Thog would look at you and then bring his axe into your skull because he finds it amusing.

He. IS. EVIL.

but the problem with this is, so you also say that all of the OotS is evil because they kill things that scream, even though they are bad people(well excluding what belkar kills) there still evil by what your saying.

im gonna have to keep saying this over and over because people dont seem to realize that, Thog could think that he is doing GOOD because he may very well think he is helping a GOOD guy, there is no way to tell this is true or not because we dont know enough about Thog to know what he thinks. we may at a latter date but atm NO ONE can make a decition on this that is what we can consider "correct" because there is no way to draw a completly correct answer from what we know.

[busterswd]

link to the strip that says this?
im gonna have to keep saying this over and over because people dont seem to realize that, Thog could think that he is doing GOOD because he may very well think he is helping a GOOD guy, there is no way to tell this is true or not because we dont know enough about Thog to know what he thinks. we may at a latter date but atm NO ONE can make a decition on this that is what we can consider "correct" because there is no way to draw a completly correct answer from what we know.


I've already covered this.

Miko had the exact same dilemma, and you know how that turned out. Your argument is faulty; even if it's correct, it doesn't matter because he's still doing evil deeds without repenting for them.

[FujinAkari]

link to the strip that says this?

Every single strip where he speaks. If Thog had an intellegence less than three, he would not be intellegent enough to form sentences.


im gonna have to keep saying this over and over because people dont seem to realize that, Thog could think that he is doing GOOD because he may very well think he is helping a GOOD guy, there is no way to tell this is true or not because we dont know enough about Thog to know what he thinks. we may at a latter date but atm NO ONE can make a decition on this that is what we can consider "correct" because there is no way to draw a completly correct answer from what we know.

You keep saying that. The problem is that it doesn't MATTER what Thog thinks. Miko thought she was doing good, but she still fell. You are judged on both your actions AND your intentions, and slaughtering an innocent is an evil -act- no matter how you slice it.

Keep in mind that Roy was almost declared NG because of one Chaotic act (leaving Elan to the bandits). Thog is confirmed as having committed over 400 blatently evil acts, and doesn't even have Roy's defense (that he realized his mistake and corrected his actions) to fall back on.

You seem to think intention means whether a person desires to do right or wrong. It doesn't. It means what goals a person seeks to fulfil.

Roy's -intention- was always to honor his oath to his father (Lawful) and, later, to stop Xykon's threat to the world (Good.)

Thog's intention seems to be to slaughter whatever opponents present themselves, regardless of threat or hostility (Chaotic Evil) and to assist Nale in his mission of revenge and subjugation (Evil).

Even IF Thog thinks his motives are good, that isn't what intention means. The Deva judged Roy on his actual actions, and on his goals, but not his perception of his goals.

Thog's actions are evil, and his goals are also evil. I personally see him as Chaotic, but I admit there is more gray area there.

[factotum]

im gonna have to keep saying this over and over because people dont seem to realize that, Thog could think that he is doing GOOD because he may very well think he is helping a GOOD guy

As already pointed out, it makes no difference whether he thinks he's doing good or not. More to the point, though, you have to look at the things he's actually done. He's killed people, LOTS of people, and showed apparent glee in doing so--a Good person does not enjoy killing, even if the person being killed is Evil. Are you also arguing that he thought the entire population of Cliffport were evil, and so he was doing good acts by killing various members of it? Thog's stupid, but he ain't THAT stupid.

[dps]

Chaotic Evil however, requiers a "lust for destruction" not to mention "greed" and "hatred", which are all qualities I'm yet to see displayed in Thog.


I haven't seen him display greed (unless gluttony counts as greed--I'm not sure about that) or hatred, but he shows lust for destruction plenty enough to make up for it.

If you haven't seen him display lust for destruction, you just haven't been looking. "Thog like breaking stuff" indeed.

[keeperoflore]

how do you KNOW hes not THAT stupid?

anyway, if it ever ends up being that im right, im just going to laugh and laugh and laugh, even though i know good and well that i have as good a chance as all of you in being right about his alignment.

i give up, you have changed the way i think many times, but not once did you change that i believe he is chaotic neutral(though i have learned a few reason WHY i believe this from this discussion) but from what i can see, no one cares what i think so ima just leave.

[FujinAkari]

how do you KNOW hes not THAT stupid?

Because he can speak. We already covered this. D&D defines stupidity to the level you're referring too as being less than three, animal intellegence. Thog can speak, therefore he isn't THAT stupid.


i give up, you have changed the way i think many times, but not once did you change that i believe he is chaotic neutral(though i have learned a few reason WHY i believe this from this discussion) but from what i can see, no one cares what i think so ima just leave.

You seem to think your ability to ignore facts is some sort of badge of honor. It isn't.

I'm not saying you're not entitled to your opinion, but your opinion seems quite divorced from the facts and relies upon a distinction of morality which the Deva section of the comic flat-out denies, and an overwhelming stupidity within Thog that seems a work of pure fiction, not at all supported or suggested by the comic.

You are in no way able to demonstrate the stupidity which your argument predicates upon, but continue to insist that everyone else prove themselves correct, rather than ever proving your own case, as though your opinion constitutes all the proof you require... it doesn't :smallsmile:

Regardless, I can't change how you feel, but I hope you will eventually realize that it appears to be based more out of a fondness for Thog than any actual evidence. You don't want to think of him as evil, and therefore you are determined not too.

[keeperoflore]

wow, im going to go through the ENTIRE comic again and point out each and every detail that completely ignores D&D rules, because just off the top of my head i can remember about 10-15. yes the comic is based off of D&D but it does not follow every detail set by the rules of D&D.

within the week, if school permits(i start tomorrow and my teachers our gonna make us write alot of papers more than likely), im going to post a thread that has EVERY single contradiction with the rules of D&D that i can find.

[FujinAkari]

Ok?

I am going to post every single detail that is in-line with the D&D ruleset. I bet you my list will be several dozen times longer than yours :P.

Yeah, the rule of funny overrides a strict adherance to the rules, but it IS still a D&D parady comic, and so unless you can demonstrate that a rule is explicitly being ignored, it is assumed not to be.

You can't just ignore rules because you want too (Rich can, but if you want to pretend that a rule doesn't affect OOTS, you have to prove your case. Once again, we're getting into you're refusal to prove your argument, but demanding others to prove you wrong.)

[keeperoflore]

i have only ever said that my answer is POSSIBLE, and i can prove that with just a single contradiction to the D&D rules, although if i only give one then my opinion is basically a .1% chance of being right.

im not saying that its a fact that im right, im saying that it is possible that im right, i very well could be wrong, in fact im 49.9% sure that im wrong,

when i make said topic with contradictions i hope that someone will actually believe that it is possible that im correct in my assumption, though from what ive seen, i doubt it very much so.

and if its hard to understand any of that, its probably because its 3am here and i haven't slept in about 26 hours.

[FujinAkari]

True enough, but arguing that something is -impossible- is... well... impossible! lol.

I'm sorry if I seemed aggressive, but I take it for granted that everyone knows their position is tentative. Rich has the final say, and it is possible that we can all be wrong.

In debate, we're always arguing for the most likely scenario, so I know you acknowledge it could be either, all we're ever doing is squabbling about the percents :)

[Sylian]

Intent is based largely on emtions, states of mind, when doing the deed. It's almost impossible to feel compassion when killing innocents... It doesn't matter if he say: "I did it because Nale told me to." The act is still evil, even if he thought that they are evil. You cannot kill evil creatures who has done nothing wrong without a good reason.

[krossbow]

Gah. I think i'm going to leave this thread. Its been proven over and over again that thog is chaotic evil, but the constant insistence on thog being good or neutral is just.... incredible.



This is almost as bad as the "belkar is chaotic good!" arguments that have come up on this board. Bah. Considering Rich has a t-shirt labled thog's take on evil, i'm pretty sure thats an affirmation of "Thog is evil."

[hamishspence]

Its certainly feasible to feel compassion for innocents and kill them anyway: in Outbreak its likely the pilots felt compassion for the people of the town they were going to bomb to stop the disease outbreak.

However, I cannot think of a strip where Thog shows compassion for the beings he kills. Thog may be childlike, but he is not a child.

According to Fiendish Codex 2, your alignment is decided when you reach maturity. and Evil societies may have "coming of age" ceremonies that require the being to commit evil acts.

Elaine Cunningham, an FR author, has a short story based around "The Blooding" where drow must hunt and kill an intelligent being captured specifically for the ceremony. Sounds similar, but for a Neutral Evil, nearly Chaotic Evil society.

[SoC175]

link to the strip that says this?
3 is the minium in D&D for sentience. Anything below 2 is of animal intelligence and a character can never have less than 3 even if you rolled a 3 during character creation and have a -2 int penalty (in such a case you have outsmarted your penalty by being so dumg that it's nullified)

im gonna have to keep saying this over and over because people dont seem to realize that, Thog could think that he is doing GOOD because he may very well think he is helping a GOOD guy, there is no way to tell this is true or not because we dont know enough about Thog to know what he thinks. we may at a latter date but atm NO ONE can make a decition on this that is what we can consider "correct" because there is no way to draw a completly correct answer from what we know.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions

While evil intentions may override good deeds, evil deeds are not made OK by good intentions (as so many fallen paladins can attest). Annother reason why being good is usually much harder than being evil

[Ron Miel]

Miko had the exact same dilemma, and you know how that turned out. Your argument is faulty; even if it's correct, it doesn't matter because he's still doing evil deeds without repenting for them.



You keep saying that. The problem is that it doesn't MATTER what Thog thinks. Miko thought she was doing good, but she still fell. You are judged on both your actions AND your intentions, and slaughtering an innocent is an evil -act- no matter how you slice it.


I don't think so. She killed someone she thought was a villain in order to protect the city. This is not an evil act, though based on a misunderstanding of the situation. It may have made her a criminal, it didn't change her good alignment. But turning against her master was chaotic. She was stripped of her paladinhood for chaos, not evil. As I understand it.

At her death Soon came to take her to the celestial realms. She was still a good person, despite being terribly misguided.

[hamishspence]

yes, but Thog is not a character, but an NPC.

Using PC rules, no PC can be Int 2 or less. Not sure if this applies for NPCs.

Usually, NPC statlines aren't rolled though, so NPC half orcs would not have troublesomely low INT anyway.

[Ron Miel]

Considering Rich has a t-shirt labled thog's take on evil, i'm pretty sure thats an affirmation of "Thog is evil."

Link? I couldn't find it in the shop. I could only see the group hug one.

[hamishspence]

can we not turn this into a MIko thread?

Anyway, Paladins can fall for performing evil acts that they do not know to be evil acts (killing a person without trial for a crime they have not committed.) In this case, atonement spell would not cost the caster any XP.

Getting back to Thog, evil carried out on orders is still evil.

[SoC175]

yes, but Thog is not a character, but an NPC.

Using PC rules, no PC can be Int 2 or less. Not sure if this applies for NPCs.

Usually, NPC statlines aren't rolled though, so NPC half orcs would not have troublesomely low INT anyway.
Even they have at least int 3, otherwise they're unable to dress themselves, use weapons, talk, ....

[SoC175]

But turning against her master was chaotic. She was stripped of her paladinhood for chaos, not evil. As I understand it.
Paladins don't fall for commiting chaotic acts as long as they don't actually become chaotic. A single act like Miko's isn't enough to instandly switch from lawful to chaotic

At her death Soon came to take her to the celestial realms. She was still a good person, despite being terribly misguided.
That's because paladins fall for comitting even a single evil act, even if the act is not enough to change their actual alignment.

Summarized:
To fall because of chaotic acts they need to keep doing them until they become chaotic
To fall because of evil acts they need to commit only a single evil act to make them a still LG fallen paladin

So Miko's flip out was certainly evil (I even can agree that it was both evil and chaotic), but not yet enough to change her alignment from LG.

Yet Thog has already commited hundreds of such evil acts. Even if we assumed he stayed CN through the first murders, the his acts have been accumulating since then

[hamishspence]

possible. Does it say this in PHB?

Star Munchkin (D20 spoof) had its own approach to low Int characters: Vocabulary = 10 times INT score (10 for INT 1, 20 for Int 2). Subsentient characters. Do not exceed this.

Is option for those who wish to discard normal rules concerning minimum Int.

whether Rich would use this is another thing entirely: doubtful.

[Lizard Lord]

"Resisting arrest is fun!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0362.html) thog says as he cleaves a police officer in half with his axe.

Nale may have told thog to resist arrest, but that doesn't mean thog had to have fun doing it. And, unlike Monster in the Darkness, thog has fun doing the evil things he is told to do. Thog not only did various evil acts, but he enjoyed them!

Thog is chaotic evil. Get over it.

[hamishspence]

Paladins also fall for gross violations of the Code. If you can think of a non-evil, non chaotic act that would count. I think Respect Legitimate Authority would fit, a non-evil act which shows gross disrespect for authority would cause a paladin to fall.

Or act with Honor, something that everyone would say is dishonourable, but few would say is Evil, would cause fall, even if not Evil.

[krossbow]

Link? I couldn't find it in the shop. I could only see the group hug one.




seems i was incorrect on the name its "Thog on the NATURE of evil"
http://www.cafepress.com/orderofthestick/312586


Still, it pretty much says he's being evil right there, not just "misguided"

[Ron Miel]

The Pictures are too small to see clearly, but he seems to be saying "Thog likes puppies" Doesn't seem too evil to me.

[busterswd]

I don't think so. She killed someone she thought was a villain in order to protect the city. This is not an evil act, though based on a misunderstanding of the situation. It may have made her a criminal, it didn't change her good alignment. But turning against her master was chaotic. She was stripped of her paladinhood for chaos, not evil. As I understand it.

At her death Soon came to take her to the celestial realms. She was still a good person, despite being terribly misguided.

Later, Belkar mentions that she's in jail for her first "evil act."

[Renegade Paladin]

Thog is chaotic evil. His reaction to boredom is to rampage and kill people. Case closed. Why is there a five page thread about this?

[hamishspence]

Arguably, she could have committed two evil acts. trying to murder a paladin who has offered you a chance to surrender is pretty evil as well. Or, for those who insist killing Shojo was not evil, this is a way out.

Personally, I do not think so. Not knowing the truth is no defense (D&D allows accidental evil acts to count as evil), nor is being not of sound mind (mad beings in D&D can be evil)

As for thog, he's pretty evil, and while obedient, his wacky nature seems pretty Chaotic as well.

[Inhuman Bot]

[QUOTE=Slaanesh;4682443]Good? let me quote: "resisting arrest is fun!" as he murders several people. I agree. Chaotic. Evil. 100%. get over it.

QUOTE]

Just because you enjoy doing some thing bad doesn't make you evil.

Wait a Frickin' second. A difference between bad and Evil

Bad: I stole my brother's choclate bar and I love the taste on such a food, so I do it on a daily basis

Evil: I Murderd several people because I love hearing the sound of dying people scream for mercy and have them watch their loved ones be gutted and then devour their entrials, so I do it on a daily basis.

Yeah abit of a difference. Do you think when a paladin arrives on the scene of the second example, the killer says "But I Like doing it!" the paladin's response will be "Ah. I understand that enjoying things means it's not evil, so I'll leave you on your way."

Really.:smallannoyed:

Also, is liking puppies a 100%+ good deed? In No more Heroes, for example, you have a cat, and can play with it. That does not make Travis any less evil for his brutal murders of many others, evil themselves or not.

And also, thog may be stupid but he knows enough of evil. Others have said this but still. Is Thog cutting people in half a neutral deed? Nope. He had no reason to. He knew it was a crime, and he enjoys it. Please, think if such a person existed in real life, murderd your family, your friends, burned your house, and crippled you for life when you had to watch? you would call him an inhuman beast, decied he was evil and likely swear vengance. If you discoverd he was stupid, and only did this because he was told to, would you decid that he was innocent, only a victim of this other person? No, he was guilty as the plotter.

[Aquillion]

Keep in mind that Roy was almost declared NG because of one Chaotic act (leaving Elan to the bandits). Thog is confirmed as having committed over 400 blatently evil acts, and doesn't even have Roy's defense (that he realized his mistake and corrected his actions) to fall back on.

Roy's -intention- was always to honor his oath to his father (Lawful) and, later, to stop Xykon's threat to the world (Good.)To be honest, Roy has done a bit more than that. He impersonated royalty in order to defraud a hotel. He conspired to subvert the law in order to get an ally out of jail (his objections aside -- why didn't he just toss Belkar deep in an Azure City prison and have done with him, or come back once his time was up to see how things were? His argument that he's only protecting the world from Belkar doesn't hold up there. Sticking by your friends even when they break the law is Chaotic Good or Neutral Good at best, not Lawful.) He deceived his friends to get their assistance in a personal quest (when he went to get the starmetal.) He knowingly allowed Azure City laws to be subverted by Shojo and his father, and did nothing about this. He told his father to his face that he didn't care about the oath anymore, just about saving the world (a chaotic good position). He was perfectly willing to have all his friends surrender to Miko and drag them halfway around the world simply because he wanted to bone her; then he changed his mind as soon as he didn't want to bone her -- both while ignoring his supposed sacred quest. (Chaotic again, or neutral at best; note how Durkon, who is more securely lawful, wanted simply to obey the law.)

Sure, Roy wanted to fulfill his sacred oath at one point -- because he wanted to show up his father. That would barely make him lawful even without the mountain of chaotic things he did above (and even then, if you ask me, I'd mark his shift on the oath to be his final change from Lawful Good to Neutral Good.) He's committed to his friends and allies, but so is Elan. He's always had a completely cavalier attitude towards the law, disregarding it the instant it becomes expedient to do so.

Yes, we have the Word of God (almost literally) that he's supposed to be Lawful Good. So what? It's an Informed Alignment (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InformedAbility), so to speak.

[Eric]

keeperoflore is trolling.

Take a look at hir's statements that YOU need to prove YOUR position. Classic trolling.

Ignore the little slump.

Thog is CE.

Loves killing things. Loves puppies and ice cream. Full of contradictions.

Belkar is CE.

Loves killing things. Likes the rest of OOTS (especially Elan "Roy has boobies"). Sexy shoeless god of war.

Xykon is CE.
Loves killing things. Badass. With crown: Uber Badass. Capital E evil.

A few of the more deluded ones thinking otherwise are either extracting the urine (of whom is anyone's guess) or can't abide liking a character who is evil (so must make them NOT Evil or change their prejucices, which hurts).

Same with Belkar and the same with Therkla. Either they change their prejudices or they insist that you're wrong and they aren't CE. Heck, that last one not only didn't require them to change their attitudes but also gets to tell lots of other people (who are obviously wrong, else they'd agree with you) they're wrong! Double Score!!!

Trolling.

[Aquillion]

Same with Belkar and the same with Therkla. Either they change their prejudices or they insist that you're wrong and they aren't CE. Heck, that last one not only didn't require them to change their attitudes but also gets to tell lots of other people (who are obviously wrong, else they'd agree with you) they're wrong! Double Score!!!Woah, woah.

Where's the evidence Therkla is chaotic? Sure, she betrayed her lord for love, but I'm not sure that alone is enough. She's also served him loyally in the past, and admits she feels loyal to him for being kind to her for so long. These are at least slightly lawful-tendency feelings.

[Inhuman Bot]

I agree, Aquillon. I belive she is more NE or even (less likely) TN because she hasn't really proven otherwise.

Also, for Thog, there is no way he can be anything other then evil. As becoming a decadent villlain is easier then becoming a paragon of benevolance. We've never seen him be good. Also, for the he was told to thus is not evil argument, a paladin who is dominated and commanded to kill an innocent falls because he did an evil deed, but can (and almost definately) will atone, and Thog has never even tried to do so.

[keeperoflore]

keeperoflore is trolling.

Take a look at hir's statements that YOU need to prove YOUR position. Classic trolling.

Ignore the little slump.

Thog is CE.

Loves killing things. Loves puppies and ice cream. Full of contradictions.

Belkar is CE.

Loves killing things. Likes the rest of OOTS (especially Elan "Roy has boobies"). Sexy shoeless god of war.

Xykon is CE.
Loves killing things. Badass. With crown: Uber Badass. Capital E evil.

A few of the more deluded ones thinking otherwise are either extracting the urine (of whom is anyone's guess) or can't abide liking a character who is evil (so must make them NOT Evil or change their prejucices, which hurts).

Same with Belkar and the same with Therkla. Either they change their prejudices or they insist that you're wrong and they aren't CE. Heck, that last one not only didn't require them to change their attitudes but also gets to tell lots of other people (who are obviously wrong, else they'd agree with you) they're wrong! Double Score!!!

Trolling.

ive never trolled in my life.

seriously i was actually trying to prove my point on most of the post that i made, i see i didn't do a very good job at this(hey 90% of the posts i made, were made when i had very little sleep).

if i was trolling i wouldn't have listened to anything that was posted, although unlike what you think, i actually read everything that was posted, and for the most part my opinion has shifted. i originally said that i was completely true, but by the end of "my" argument, i changed my opinion to say that what i originally thought is possible.

again, im freaking tired so if this was hard to understand ill change it to sound better.

[Dark Matter]

im gonna have to keep saying this over and over because people dont seem to realize that, Thog could think that he is doing GOOD because he may very well think he is helping a GOOD guy...Thog's boss Nale is afraid Thog will get bored some day and kill him. From that we can gather Thog doesn't have a problem killing, well, anyone including his friends and co-workers. Even if we assume he sees them as "good", they're pretty sure he'll still kill them on a whim.

Far as I can tell Thog follows Nale because Nale tells him to do things he enjoys (i.e. killing people).


The Pictures are too small to see clearly, but he seems to be saying "Thog likes puppies" Doesn't seem too evil to me.You need to understand the context. For Thog *this* is a puppy. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html

Enjoyment of suffering, murder, etc = Evil.
Can't be trusted to not kill his "allies" without constant bribes (i.e. ice cream) = "Chaotic Evil".

For that matter the *only* semi-Lawful actions he's taken have been following Nale's orders to (unlawfully) kill people. Even freeing Elan from prison was a chaotic act (broke the law and disobeyed his leader's instructions). If we discount Mass Murder as a "lawful" act... I can't think of *anything* he's done that has been lawful and there's a ton of stuff he's done that's been Chaotic.

[Degausser]

I'd just like to say that I think Thog is CN. He followed Elan just ast readily as he followed Nale, and Elan had him not kill anyone. I think he's simply too stupid to know the difference between Good and Evil. That's my own little pet theory anyway, take it or leave it.

[busterswd]

I'd just like to say that I think Thog is CN. He followed Elan just ast readily as he followed Nale, and Elan had him not kill anyone. I think he's simply too stupid to know the difference between Good and Evil. That's my own little pet theory anyway, take it or leave it.

Like I said before, he was probably initially a chaotic neutral but fell to a chaotic evil due to his numerous outright evil past actions. He acts chaotic neutral much of the time, but he caused too much pain and suffering to be neutral.

[Aquillion]

I think that -- maybe -- he might have been at least non-evil if he'd hung around with a better crowd. His eagerness to rejoin Nale does indicate that he views Nale as a real friend, and doesn't just follow him because he likes being ordered to kill things; but Nale has clearly taken his evilness and cultivated it.

He does seem evil now.

[Renegade Paladin]

keeperoflore is trolling.

Take a look at hir's statements that YOU need to prove YOUR position. Classic trolling.
He may or may not be, but that's hardly an indication of it. Oftentimes, someone does need to prove his statements, such as when he's making a positive claim; pointing out that the burden of proof is his is not trolling.

[Emanick]

Because he is stupid.

No matter how stupid you are enjoying the suffering of others, I'd like to note, is evil.

Imagine a five year old child. He has a knife. He slowly pushes the knife into your body. You awaken and scream in pain. This little boy somehow decides he likes it, he's in control of you by forcing pain onto you. Suddenly he stabs you, and you fall to the ground limp, dead, and lifeless. The five year old doesn't understand he ended the life of a sentient being, but he enjoyed an act that I feel at a primal level would be understood as bad.

Have you ever seen someone scream in pain from being stabbed? There's something.. about it that makes you just KNOW it was wrong, you can TELL he is suffering, even a five year old could on some level.


Call me petty, but you're thinking of a three year old. A five year old has the capacity to understand the concept of killing someone. Although he/she may not follow the depths and ramifications of murder, a five year old has more depth than you're giving them credit for.

[Durp]

I personally think Thog is Chaotic Neutral. He has NO intelligence or wisdom, he just does what people tell him to do, and because he's a barbarian, he usually has to kill people. Wait, i think he's barbarian/fighter...

[FujinAkari]

I personally think Thog is Chaotic Neutral. He has NO intelligence or wisdom, he just does what people tell him to do, and because he's a barbarian, he usually has to kill people. Wait, i think he's barbarian/fighter...

Didn't we already counter this argument like 10 times in this thread?

By D&D rules it is impossible to be stupid to the point of not having an alignment without also being stupid to the point of being unable to speak. Thog's ignorance can not be used as a defense.

[Durp]

Didn't we already counter this argument like 10 times in this thread?

By D&D rules it is impossible to be stupid to the point of not having an alignment without also being stupid to the point of being unable to speak. Thog's ignorance can not be used as a defense.

I'm sorry, i'm new. i literally just joined the forum tonight. This does not mean i just started reading the comic.

[FujinAkari]

I'm sorry, i'm new. i literally just joined the forum tonight.

Ah... its fine :)

Its just frustrating when we've been debating something for six pages and someone joins in with a topic that was covered on page one or two.

You don't need to read EVERY page (that'd be unreasonable) but at least read a few posts before responding...

Sorry if I seemed rude :)

[Durp]

Thank you. It's okay.

[FujinAkari]

Thank you. It's okay.

Hehe... I guess this whole topic just frustrates me... I mean, seriously...

"Evil, but Cute." (http://www.cafepress.com/orderofthestick.11485758) Rich himself has basically mandated that Thog is evil, yet people still want to argue about it -for six pages-

*slams head on desk repeatedly*

[krossbow]

Hehe... I guess this whole topic just frustrates me... I mean, seriously...

[url=http://www.cafepress.com/orderofthestick.11485758]"Evil, but Cute." Rich himself has basically mandated that Thog is evil, yet people still want to argue about it -for six pages-

*slams head on desk repeatedly*



I feel the same way.



Another thing to realize is that hulk speak in the order of the stick world is not neccecarily an indication of mental ineptitude to the degree that one would normally think of it.

The leader of the barbarian guild that helped Belkar gain his barbarian level seemed to be fully competent and capable, and even organized. The fact is, barbarians are ENCOURAGED to delight in childish things and speak in broken english. its basically their culture.

[hamishspence]

The orcs on the island spoke in a similar manner, exaggerated a little. Yet at the same time they did not seem completely stupid, more ignorant of language distinctions. Same might apply to Thog.

[Eric]

ive never trolled in my life.

Well you're doing it now.

You have natural talent.

Just not the sort that is worth anything.

[Eric]

I agree, Aquillon. I belive she is more NE or even (less likely) TN because she hasn't really proven otherwise.

To nail down why this sort of thread is only of any use when you state your *opinion* once and leave it alone:

Are you saying Therkla CANNOT be Chaotic or Evil?

No?

Then make your statement and leave it at that.

Yes?

Prove it.

[hamishspence]

more interesting would be to see a list of Chaotic, Lawful, Good, and Evil behaviours, with counterarguments.

Assassination: Evil. Murder: Evil (murdering an evil being out of evil motives, is still evil)
Following orders: possibly Lawful. Following orders of someone you do not respect: Very lawful (by Fiendish Codex 2)

You guys can probably think of more.

[Texas Jedi]

Mercy, I would place as a good trait, leaning a little towards chaos over law.

Mercy is basically forgiveness which is a great good trait.

It leans toward chaos because it upholds the individual (chaos) over the whole (law).

I would still say that it way more good than it is chaos.

[hamishspence]

the Lawful use of mercy would be the legal commuting of sentences by a ruler. Hinjo would be a notable example. And it doesn't have to be unconditional mercy.

[AWM]

Thog’s alignment is “Barbarian” because he filled out his character sheet incorrectly.

-awm

[Texas Jedi]

Yeah, I do agree with that but that is clemency which is a form of mercy.

The only problem I have is that is still a midly chaotic act. He is granting criminals mercy so he is upholding the individual over the whole. Any time you are making a benefit to an individual over the whole. You are committing a chaotic act.

Chaos is more about an individual's rights instead of the whole, things like the ACLU is good example of this because it makes sure the individual's rights aren't trampled on.

Law is like zero tolerence laws because everybody, and any cirumstance is treated the same, no matter how silly the situation.

In the DnD world you would find more mercy or clemency in an elven society (CG) than in a dwarven society (LG) because the individual is supreme in a chaotic society and the whole is supreme in a Lawful society.

I am sorry if I made it seem like I favor chaos over law in my post. That wasn't my intention, I believe in balance. Straight Neutral Good for me.

[Eric]

Mercy, I would place as a good trait, leaning a little towards chaos over law.

Mercy is basically forgiveness which is a great good trait.

It leans toward chaos because it upholds the individual (chaos) over the whole (law).

I would still say that it way more good than it is chaos.

1) "An eye for an eye would leave the whole world blind". Ghandi would not be considered "chaotic" in alignment.

2) (N)PC's aren't 100% chaotic, 100% Lawful, 100% Evil or 100% good.

3) If you worry about the whole, you can ignore/forgive a despicable act "for the greater good". Which has the effect of the mercy you ascribe to Chaos but the wording is *most definitely* Lawful rather than Chaotic.

[Texas Jedi]

1) "An eye for an eye would leave the whole world blind". Ghandi would not be considered "chaotic" in alignment.

I really don't see what you were saying here but I can give it a shot. An eye for an eye type of law is very lawful in alignment. That is retribution which is a lawful ideal. I do unto you which you do unto me. There is no room for forgiveness, the reasons for the crime ect. there is only the plain you gouge my eye out I then gouge your eye out. Mercy breaks that because it is the opposite of retribution. I might have been mistaken in saying mercy was a good act because in that context it is purely chaos.


Ghandi was very much a chaotic person. He was protesting against a corrupt, but lawful society. MLK is like Ghandi they both spoke out, and protested against evil and unjust laws but it was still the law. They were defying the law (chaos) to stand up for the greater good of the individual.


2) (N)PC's aren't 100% chaotic, 100% Lawful, 100% Evil or 100% good.

I never did claim that. Everybody is a balance of one of these four things. When did I ever say you could only be one of those four things.


3) If you worry about the whole, you can ignore/forgive a despicable act "for the greater good". Which has the effect of the mercy you ascribe to Chaos but the wording is *most definitely* Lawful rather than Chaotic.

I don't see where you are going with that statement it really isn't all that clear. I am happy to debate it but I need it worded differently so I can figure out your point.

[mockingbyrd7]

Hey, it was about time for one of these. :smallbiggrin:

I'm tempted to say that overall, he is True Neutral CURRENTLY leaning towards Evil, with aspects from all four corners of the alignment table. Here's my reasoning:

Thog is dumb as bricks. From my reckoning, he has virtually no wisdom and a negative intelligence score (yeah, I know that's not possible, it's hyperbole) and as such any alignment he has is not concrete as his motives don't go far beyond "puppies are soft and play with thog. thog loves ice cream with sprinkles".

We've seen Thog kill an innocent female with a completely blank expression on his face. Whether he understood that he was committing a cold-blooded murder and was completely apathetic towards her death or if he just thought he was following Nale's orders is unknown. It depends on how you look at it. It seems to be a Neutral Evil act, or possibly Lawful Stupid.

Thog is in the company of Nale, a thoroughly evil "mastermind" who's trying to get revenge on the good guys, and Sabine, a seductive fiend-ess. Evil, unless he doesn't realize that they're Evil, in which case it's Neutral Stupid.

He is EXTREMELY loyal to Nale because he accepted Thog. He loves Nale and is enraged by the thought of him coming to any harm. This seems to be Lawful Neutral or Lawful Good.

Thog is very playful, and seems to greatly enjoy freedom, ice cream, sprinkles, and resisting arrest. This implies Chaos. He is also a Barbarian, meaning he can't be Lawful overall.

Thog liked, respected, and unquestioningly followed Elan, Nale's sworn enemy. This WAS because he thought doing so would save Nale, but it does give us a taste of the fact that Thog is very impressionable and even if he is evil, could swing to neutral or good depending on his influences.

Overall, I'd say that Thog is a follower (Lawful) but is very wild at heart (Chaotic), and his Good or Evil actions depend on his company and what they tell him to do. And ultimately, he is very dependent on others because he doesn't have the brain to survive for long on his own. Thus, I reason True Neutral.

[hamishspence]

while Thog's evil acts may partly depend on company, doesn't matter. Those who do lots of evil acts on orders are evil by D&D rules.

However, this is a different shade of evil from the actively malevolent. however, it is still evil. Thog may be more easily redeemed than Nale (have to wait and see) but redemption will be needed.

[busterswd]

@people saying "thog could be neutral instead of evil..."

Fujin linked a shirt that straight out calls Thog evil, made by "Word of God" Burlew himself. There's also a couple pages of justification of why he cannot be neutral: in short, it doesn't matter how ignorant you are, when you kill/maim as much as Thog does, you're still responsible.



And mercy is often seen as good, but there are multiple aspects to it, imo:

"Good" mercy (redemption): "Everyone deserves a second chance to redeem themselves, no matter what they've done. Even if they misuse that second chance, it's their right as a human."

"Neutral" mercy (prisoner's dilemma): "An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind. If we retaliate too harshly on people, the situation may escalate at everyone's expense. It's better to forgive some things rather than just screw everyone over."

"Evil" mercy (impotence): "Evil can run free, because we don't want to stain our own hands with enforcing good. Even if someone is certain to hurt people again, we cannot punish them."

[keeperoflore]

Well you're doing it now.

You have natural talent.

Just not the sort that is worth anything.

how might i be trolling again? because you never made that clear the first time... in fact i dont even think you know what trolling actually is, because you seem to have tried to prove that i was trolling, but you failed.

why im even acknowledging that you think im trolling, i have no idea at all. in fact anything you say after this, unless it actually gives me a reason to actually listen to you or say anything back, im just going to ignore you.

it amazes me how people will tend to try to drag an argument on, after its ended. i finished saying what i needed to way before your "trolling" post, and yet you still had to post a statement about how even after having a conversation with people that are willing to defend there opinion and being proven wrong for the most part, AND acknowledging it as so, i still get called a troll.


oh and there is an edit button, use it some time. i do believe that it is considered spam to double post.

[busterswd]

how might i be trolling again? because you never made that clear the first time... in fact i dont even think you know what trolling actually is, because you seem to have tried to prove that i was trolling, but you failed.

why im even acknowledging that you think im trolling, i have no idea at all. in fact anything you say after this, unless it actually gives me a reason to actually listen to you or say anything back, im just going to ignore you.

it amazes me how people will tend to try to drag an argument on, after its ended. i finished saying what i needed to way before your "trolling" post, and yet you still had to post a statement about how even after having a conversation with people that are willing to defend there opinion and being proven wrong for the most part, AND acknowledging it as so, i still get called a troll.


oh and there is an edit button, use it some time. i do believe that it is considered spam to double post.

Honestly, I don't blame him for thinking you're trolling. Many times it seems you're being purposefully obtuse. A very basic method of trolling is doing exactly what you did throughout the thread: "Repeat argument 1, ignore counterarguments without even trying to disprove them, become 'annoyed' that no one has responded to you." Or simply basing your entire argument on "it's my opinion, so I don't have to prove it" and leaving the burden of proof on other people proving your speculations wrong.

[keeperoflore]

that's just it, i didnt ignore others opinion, and if i can find time, ill get proff considering "proof" of my opinion is just a single thing that goes against the DnD rules.

but i actually changed my opinion based on what others told me, and for the most part, i could very well be VERY wrong.

i wish i knew more of the DnD rules, because i have a feeling that when i go look for something that dosent "work" im not going to find anything. but when/if i do find anything, ill post it, there will be my proof, although if i find nothing, ill say i was completely wrong and back down.

[hamishspence]

Problem is, most of the stuff about alignment, distinctions between intent and action, varietions of evil, etc are not in PHB which gives very short definitions of alignment. And some of the secondary sources are derided by people on the forum. That said:

Vile Darkness covers evil actions, and personalities from the Naive Fool to the Monster.

Savage species has a paragraph pointing out Evil PCs/NPCs aren't always Evil to everyone: can be loyal friends or kind parents.

Champions of Ruin has variety of reasons for person to be evil: Evil society, Driven to Evil, Evil Curse, etc.

Exemplars of Evil has a list of common personality traits, and which alignments (Law, Chaos, Evil) the villains that have them tend to be.

All possible sources.

[Spiryt]

i wish i knew more of the DnD rules, because i have a feeling that when i go look for something that dosent "work" im not going to find anything. but when/if i do find anything, ill post it, there will be my proof, although if i find nothing, ill say i was completely wrong and back down.

What exactly you want to search for? Why seek arguments for Thog's alingment in D&D rules?


Problem is, most of the stuff about alignment, distinctions between intent and action, varietions of evil, etc are not in PHB which gives very short definitions of alignment. And some of the secondary sources are derided by people on the forum. That said.

Things like good and evil are subjective and complicated, so it's IMO very good that alingnment are short. For me, all problems of D&D alignment comes from people who see make them matter too much.

[hamishspence]

In 2nd ed PHB it said Good and evil count vary depending on the society. Only in 3rd ed did we get a more objective "an evil act is an evil act whatever the justification" beginning with Vile Darkness, and contining with Exalted Deeds and Fiendish codex 2.

Note that only Evil acts receives specific values, and tend to be more important than good acts when considering what afterlife characters go to.

[AgentPaper]

Yeah but I get the feeling that his boredom-driven rampages are pretty consistent behavior for him, thus Neutral Evil.

Consistent chaos doesn't make someone lawful. :smallconfused:

[Spiryt]

Consistent chaos doesn't make someone lawful. :smallconfused:

It doesn't make his actions lawful, but certainly make him at least a bit closer to lawful.

Every strong, repeatable habit is something rather lawful.

[hamishspence]

The only thing predictable about Chaos is its unpredictability. And that could be Thog. When he rampages might not be all that predictable.