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Frosty
2008-08-10, 12:49 PM
Does the Unarmed Swordsage variant gain Improved Unarmed Strike? It'd seem silly not to grant it because then every time the unarmed swordsage uses his maneuvers to attack, he'd be provoking an AoO.

MammonAzrael
2008-08-10, 02:10 PM
While it doesn't say so in the Adaptation section, any DM I've ever met says yes, they do. So it's safe to say yeah, they get it for free.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-10, 05:04 PM
Yes, they get everything under the Unarmed Strike header in the monk's description.

Waspinator
2008-08-10, 05:08 PM
It's somewhat of a GM call, but most people agree it's silly not to give them that.

Starbuck_II
2008-08-10, 08:21 PM
Yes, they get everything under the Unarmed Strike header in the monk's description.

But do they have proficiency?

Arbitrarity
2008-08-10, 08:27 PM
Obviously. Swordsages are proficient with all simple and martial melee weapons.

olentu
2008-08-10, 08:27 PM
Swordsages are proficient with simple weapons.

Vexxation
2008-08-10, 08:28 PM
But do they have proficiency?

An Unarmed Swordsage gives up his Light Armor Proficiency. That's it.
Swordsages are proficient with all Simple and Martial (Melee) weapons.
Unarmed Strike is a Simple Weapon.

So yes.

Frosty
2008-08-11, 02:58 AM
Yes, they get everything under the Unarmed Strike header in the monk's description.

The wording in the adaptation paragraph is way too vague. I suspected that by a strict reading, the unarmed swordaage only gets the extra damage from unarmed strikes, but is still considered not armed. that's dumb, but who knows...

Meat Shield
2008-08-11, 08:21 AM
What we have here is a case of RAW vs. ROI. As above, I've never seen a DM not give IUS for free. if it burns someone that bad, technically, unarmed swordsages can still wear light armor with the adaptation with no penalty other than the ACP. Make the rule so that if they do wear armor they lose their maneuvers or monk unarmed strike progression.

AstralFire
2008-08-11, 09:10 AM
Strict readings should never be performed with anything under the "Adaptation" heading.

Never.

I would probably punch someone who did.


An Unarmed Swordsage gives up his Light Armor Proficiency. That's it.
Swordsages are proficient with all Simple and Martial (Melee) weapons.
Unarmed Strike is a Simple Weapon.

So yes.

Proficiency with your unarmed strike is not the same as being considered armed when unarmed.

Griffin131
2008-08-11, 09:18 AM
Proficiency with your unarmed strike is not the same as being considered armed when unarmed.
Hi, he was responding to

But do they have proficiency?

AstralFire
2008-08-11, 09:24 AM
Hi, he was responding to

I swear I'm required to make at least one dumb mistake on this board a day.

EDIT: Or, "we see why Astral doesn't like strict readings - he is not very good at them." :smallsigh:

Chronos
2008-08-11, 02:28 PM
if it burns someone that bad, technically, unarmed swordsages can still wear light armor with the adaptation with no penalty other than the ACP.If you want to go by a really strict reading, a swordsage (unarmed or not) who's not wearing armor loses his Wis to AC, too, since the rules say that only applies when he's wearing light armor.

Edea
2008-08-11, 05:00 PM
Strict readings should never be performed with anything under the "Adaptation" heading.

Never.

I would probably punch someone who did.

This.

UA Swordsage should be built from the ground up with your DM, using the Adaptation text for suggestions/guidelines. Note that the horrendous monster that is the Arcane Swordsage immediately follows. Try using THAT as written (either it's -utterly- useless, or its cheesy odor is so overpowering that it will send your DM hurtling towards the nearest toilet).

I think a DM willing to even acknowledge the viability of the Adaptation text would include the IAS feat for free at 1st level with the UA Swordsage, perhaps even as the very first step of fully adapting said class variant to his campaign.

Jack Mann
2008-08-11, 07:57 PM
Amusingly, monks aren't, by RAW, proficient with unarmed strikes. Another, similar oversight in the rules. Just as DMs everywhere have seen fit to give swordsages unarmed strike proficiency, I see no reason not to give swordsages improved unarmed strike.