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Akisa
2008-08-10, 03:49 PM
I noticed this list (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm#buildingAGestaltCharacter) but I'm like there has to be better combos.

I think Cleric/Rogue would be one of the best combos as it provides Sneak Attack, skill points and ref to a cleric's will, fort saves, spells and higher HD. And through divine power and divine meta magic you'll get full BAB.

Catch
2008-08-10, 04:12 PM
There was a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39659) about this a while ago with some interesting builds, so you might take a look in there.

monty
2008-08-10, 04:21 PM
Fighter 20//Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Other arcane PrC 5. Chaos shuffle all fighter feats into metamagic, prerequisites, and miscellaneous useful stuff. Gives you full casting, full BAB, d10 HD, two good saves, and a crapton of metamagic feats. Pretty damn solid character - it's no druid, but it's up there.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-10, 04:31 PM
Druid 10/Planar Shepard 10//Swordsage 2/Warblade 14/Warshaper 4:smalleek:

Warblade 20//Factotem 20

Wizard 5/PRC 5/Incantrix 10//Rogue or Factotem or Warblade or Archivist 20:smallbiggrin:

Fighter 20//Cloistered Cleric 20

Druid 20//Barbarian 4/Monk 1/Warshaper 5/MoMF 10

Pretty much, any full-caster or ToBer combined with anything else. Bonus points for becoming completely SAD.

monty
2008-08-10, 04:37 PM
Druid 10/Planar Shepard 10//Swordsage 2/Warblade 14/Warshaper 4:smalleek:

Hell, Druid/Planar Shepherd is pretty much insta-win by itself. Anything else is just icing on the cake.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-10, 04:48 PM
Hell, Druid/Planar Shepherd is pretty much insta-win by itself. Anything else is just icing on the cake.This is Gestalt. if you aren't soloing the Tarrasque at 15th level, you're doing it wrong.

Cleric 20//Crusader 20. Max Cha, go DMM persist, and proceed to crush everything.

Swordsage 8/Ur-Priest 10/Mo9 2//Warblade 17/Mo9 3

Rogue 20//Scout 4/Ranger 16:19 BAB, massive skill points, full Sneak Attack, Skirmish, and Favored enemy progression

D Knight
2008-08-10, 06:56 PM
what book is Planar Shepherd from and can anyone get a link to it. but you could try warlock/rogue for max kick ass. also archavis/artificer just pack all orb wands.

monty
2008-08-10, 06:58 PM
what book is Planar Shepherd from and can anyone get a link to it. but you could try warlock/rogue for max kick ass. also archavis/artificer just pack all orb wands.

Faiths of Eberron. Widely considered to be the most obviously broken class in the entire game. Also, warlock/rogue certainly isn't bad, but it's not even at the level of any reasonably optimized full caster, much less a PS.

Vexxation
2008-08-10, 07:05 PM
Hell, Druid/Planar Shepherd is pretty much insta-win by itself. Anything else is just icing on the cake.

How about a Gestalt Planar Shepard // Malkonvoker?

Turn into anything from anywhere. Then summon a bunch more of them, shuffle around, and see if the enemy knows which one you are.

My new personal favorite is Elan Soulknife 20 // Psychic Warrior 3 / Swordsage 17. Wisdom Synergy for PsyWar and Swordsage, and if you Vow of Poverty the main hurtles are covered: Soulknives get enchantment on their blades, and even unarmored you can Manifest Inertial Armor and Force Screen enough to give you a *very* respectable AC. Practiced Manifester in Psychic Warrior, and you're set. Better character through Gestalting it with a ToB class. Wooo!

Though I think a Psychic Warrior 3 / Swordsage 17 would be interesting in its own.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-10, 07:37 PM
Simple basic Rogue -1, Factotum - 19 or Warblade -20//Erudite-20 with the Spells to Power Variant for cherry picking spells 17 PP Miracles for spell duplication goes a long way with limited daily power access although it doesn't have anything on the Planar Shepherd.

PRCs to taste to improve it on either side with up to 3 Erudite levels that can be swapped out to pick up a few other classes with benefits.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-10, 07:49 PM
Some that I have used:

Swordsage (Unarmed Variant)//PsiWar/Slayer/Pyrokeneticist. King of Smack much?

Druid20/Warshaper//PsiWar/Slayer. Another KoS build. Juggle around PrC's to fit them all in.

Swordsage//Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor. DMM Persist + Swordsage = pwn.

Warblade//Wizard/Incantatrix/Iot7V. Go away, you bother me.

Druid/Planar Shepherd//Warblade/MoMF/Warshaper. Ouch.

Pal/Warblade//Sorc/MotAO/Incantatrix. Perhaps not QUITE as 'I win' as the wizard version, but very impressive saves.

Warlock//Rogue. UMD Cheeze FTW!

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-10, 07:56 PM
Warlock//Artificer would actually be pretty good. 24-hour invocations and unlimited ranged touch attack damage, added onto the Artificer's limited uber-resources.

VoP Swordsage 20//Druid 10/Planar Shepard 10

Don't forget, people, only one PrC at a time. Some are ignoring this.

monty
2008-08-10, 07:57 PM
Ahh, if only there was a way to fit in Planar Shepherd and Incantatrix. Cheese^2 with only two ability dependency.

expirement10K14
2008-08-10, 08:00 PM
Ahh, if only there was a way to fit in Planar Shepherd and Incantatrix. Cheese^2 with only two ability dependency.

Druid 10/Planarshepard 10//X 5/Incantatrix 10/x5

monty
2008-08-10, 08:01 PM
Druid 10/Planarshepard 10//X 5/Incantatrix 10/x5

Nope. Can't take two prestige classes at once; since you can't take either at first level, it's impossible to fit in all twenty levels pre-epic.

Ganurath
2008-08-10, 09:24 PM
Human Beguiler 20 // Hexblade 5 / Avenging Executioner 5 / Ghost-Faced Killer 10

Human due to the feat commitment: On top of the PrC prerequisites, you're picking up Combat Expertise and Improved Feint. Still, you're actually putting those Hexblade bonus feats to use, and the Beguiler will have an insane familiar to provide a distraction for spellcasting. Too many mooks to cast spells? Drop one of them with a Power Attack, and watch the chain reaction.

brant167
2008-08-10, 09:30 PM
Gestault gives you the option to make odd combinations work. It allows you to not worry that much about power gaming b/c you have so much power already. Most class combination is a good class just go with the character concept. Currently our group has a Binder/ Anarch (chaotic neutral paladin variant), Storm Druid/Cleric, Ranger/Ninja, Shadow Caster/Battle Dancer, and a Illusionist/Beguiler. No one outshines the other and everyone has substantial power. Some fun class combination would be Warblade/Psion, True Namer/Bard, a gnome Jester/Crusader, or even Dread Necromancer/ Favored Soul.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-10, 10:16 PM
Hmm... Beguiler//Crusader... a one-man party. Beguiler gives you Skillmonkey and Arcane casting. Crusader brings Healing and Tanking to the table. Sounds like a win to me.

For that matter, Beguiler//Swordsage. Not a fellah I'd care to take on, particularly not with all the Shadow Hand and Setting Sun maneuvers he's likely got.

Eldariel
2008-08-10, 10:38 PM
Generally, when Gestalting, you'll want to choose sides that not only complement each other, but also synergise with each other. Fighter/Cleric is all good, but not notably better than a straight Cleric. The two ways to go about it are either stacking bonuses to single ability on one side and taking an actual character on the other, or combining two classes that work particularly well together.

The most valuable commodity tends to be actions though and thus classes that grant actions are at a premium in Gestalt (the primary reason for this is mostly the fact that a Gestalt character has twice the options of a normal characters, but the same number of actions, so while a Gestalt character's every action tends to be more powerful than a normal character's, to truly match two normal characters, a gestalt character needs a similar number of actions - also, since you've got another class that doesn't normally get extra actions, those extra actions are notably more potent than usual, since they're designed for a class that does not get excessively powerful abilities).

Factotum is probably the best class to gestalt with just about anything. It gives you powerful abilities (and Int-synergies) along with all skills and good skills/level and extra Standard Actions every turn quite early. Ruby Knight Vindicator is likewise incredible, but runs into the dual progression issues. Druid is also good, since Companion gives you virtual extra actions, so if you have ways to buff both more than a normal Druid could (Cloistered Cleric/Druid, for example, is notorious for this), you're definitely contributing. Likewise, classes like Eternal Blade really come on their own in Gestalt with Full Round Action of spellcasting.


The other potent way to go about it is combining high level abilities you just couldn't in a normal game. TWF Duskblade Dervish for example is a good example of this; you get Full Attack Channel with Dervish's Dervish Dance to basically affect whichever opponents you want, and to affect them all with one spell. If you fool around with Sublime Chord a bit, you'll actually get full casting along with it too (something like Bard/Dervish/Sublime Chord/Virtuoso with Duskblade on the other side, finishing the casting on that side once the Duskblade 13 is reached), which means you'll get real spells instead of Duskblade's crap (and you'll still have Duskblade's spells to burn on Arcane Strike).

Generally, doing things for just numbers is underpowered (unless the numbers are really big), so just taking Sneak Attack, Skirmish or such on one side tends to be insufficient contribution. However, they are nice bonuses. The real gold lies in doing more with the same actions or just plain gaining more actions though. Oh yeah, and as long as we're playing in games with Divine Power, you shouldn't pay too much attention to your Base Attack Bonus (except for PrC qualifications). Early on, the difference is around 5-10% to hit per attack, and later on you'll have Divine Power so you'll hit better than that Fighter over there. HP and company tend to likewise be rather trivial; they'll fall in place well enough without extra attention.

Oh yeah, and being dependant on multiple casting stats = bad; multiple casters should be derived off the same stat since to reach decent bonus spell/DCs, you'll need to be able to dump all your level ups to a single stat and to make do with stat boosters only in that and to afford a book on that stat ASAP. Also, getting two lists of spellcasting generally isn't that powerful as you usually don't have the actions to really run out of one, let alone two of them. If you can synergize them well, like with Cleric and Druid for example though, knock yourself out.

Knaight
2008-08-11, 12:35 AM
Crusader/Warlock, with weapon finesse. Charisma and Dexterity are both paramount, and you can kick butt in both melee and blasting people at range. Put the two healing stunts together, and your not going to go down easily either. Not to mention the imagery is awesome. Monk/Rogue also has nice power, considering flurry of blows having a tendency to hit hard, and lots of sneak attack, although there are better fits, and it doesn't have the power of Crusader/Warlock.

Talic
2008-08-11, 12:58 AM
Druid 12/Planar Sheperd 8 // Wizard 5/Incantatrix 7/Wizard 6-13

Incantatrix 7 is the real bread and butter level there. What'll PS 8 get ya?


Druid 20 // Fighter 5/MomF 7/Warshaper 5/Hierophant 3

Alternately, replace fighter with Warblade.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-11, 12:59 AM
Wizard 15/Incantatrix 5//Factotum 10/Illithid Savant 10

That is the most broken gestalt. Granted Illithid Savant makes anything the most broken. That PrC makes Planar Shepard look like a fighter.

Why yes, I have Divine Rank 0, Cast as a wizard 20/Sorcerer 20 (with all spells as SLA's)/Psion 20, have 50 mile Telepathy, have Big T's regen, and every other ability that doesn't have negatives in the entire game.

Talic
2008-08-11, 01:00 AM
Wizard 15/Incantatrix 5//Factotum 10/Illithid Savant 10

That is the most broken gestalt. Granted Illithid Savant makes anything the most broken. That PrC makes Planar Shepard look like a fighter.

Why yes, I have Divine Rank 0, Cast as a wizard 20/Sorcerer 20 (with all spells as SLA's)/Psion 20, have 50 mile Telepathy, have Big T's regen, and every other ability that doesn't have negatives in the entire game.

Last 5 levels illegal. Illithid Savant and Incantatrix are both PrC's.

Edea
2008-08-11, 01:16 AM
He can sandwich those in easily. Wizard 5/Incantatrix 5/Wizard +10//Factotum 10/Illithid Savant 10.

I think my questions would be "Don't you have to be an illithid to get into the PrC?" and "Where are you getting these brains from?".

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-11, 01:33 AM
Last 5 levels illegal. Illithid Savant and Incantatrix are both PrC's.

True. It's Wizard 5/Incantatrix 5/Wizard 10//Factotum 10/Illithid Savant 10.

And you might want to replace wizard with something else.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-11, 01:46 AM
I think my questions would be "Don't you have to be an illithid to get into the PrC?" and "Where are you getting these brains from?".

1. True Mind Switch with a gated in Mind Flayer (the ultra one with +9 LA and 12 HD from Lords of Madness preferably). You get True Mind Switch from a Power Stone. With Factotum you should have 13 ranks in it, a +2 tool, and +2 from Psicraft syngery. Your at +17. Now a +10 Shard and the Factotum skill bonus and you auto succeed. Now to get the Mind Flayer. Use a scroll of gate, you auto succeed on the UMD check to emulate a CL of 17 (same way as above), to gate in the mind flayer. Order it to lower all defenses and then use the True Mind Switch stone.

2. Gate in whatever it is that you want, order it to lower its defenses, and eat its brain.

Talic
2008-08-11, 01:50 AM
1. True Mind Switch with a gated in Mind Flayer (the ultra one with +9 LA and 12 HD from Lords of Madness preferably). You get True Mind Switch from a Power Stone. With Factotum you should have 13 ranks in it, a +2 tool, and +2 from Psicraft syngery. Your at +17. Now a +10 Shard and the Factotum skill bonus and you auto succeed. Now to get the Mind Flayer. Use a scroll of gate, you auto succeed on the UMD check to emulate a CL of 17 (same way as above), to gate in the mind flayer. Order it to lower all defenses and then use the True Mind Switch stone.

2. Gate in whatever it is that you want, order it to lower its defenses, and eat its brain.

Minor problem. Once you gain the illithid form, you are now an illithid, are you not? Complete with the LA and HD increasing your ECL. How long will it be before you reach level 11 with that burden?


That said, another option for fun:

Cindy 20 // Rogue 20

Add in more skill points, and a few more dice of damage on those spells? Further, those spells that hit multiple targets, or fire multiple rays at once (e.g. Scorching Ray) get a lot of SA dice. It's more like icing on the cake, but it's not bad icing.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-11, 01:57 AM
Minor problem. Once you gain the illithid form, you are now an illithid, are you not? Complete with the LA and HD increasing your ECL. How long will it be before you reach level 11 with that burden?
No. You don't gain the HD or LA.

* You gain the type of your assumed body.
* You gain the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of your assumed body.
* You gain the natural armor, natural attacks, movement, and other simple physical characteristics of your assumed body.
* You gain the extraordinary special attacks and qualities of your assumed body, but you do not gain supernatural or spell-like abilities.
* You gain the possessions and equipment of your assumed body.
* You retain your own hit points, saving throws (possibly modified by new ability scores), class abilities, supernatural and spell-like abilities, spells and powers, and skills and feats (although skill checks use your new ability scores, and you may be temporarily unable to use feats whose requirements you do not meet in your new body).


That said, another option for fun:

Cindy 20 // Rogue 20

Add in more skill points, and a few more dice of damage on those spells? Further, those spells that hit multiple targets, or fire multiple rays at once (e.g. Scorching Ray) get a lot of SA dice. It's more like icing on the cake, but it's not bad icing.

Factotum is a better choice.

Talic
2008-08-11, 02:00 AM
Factotum is a better choice.

Usually true. But either way, it's just icing.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-11, 02:05 AM
Usually true. But either way, it's just icing.

Yeah. Cindy//Warblade works well too. That d12 hit die is nice. Factotum 3 and able learner thrown in as well.


I just wish Factotums could get the abilities of PrC's as well as PC's for their capstone. That would make an absolutely nasty class.

Talic
2008-08-11, 02:08 AM
Cindy // Druid ?

Natural spell + even more shapeshifting fun?

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-11, 02:17 AM
Maybe. It has potential. But Cindy//Fighter is still better (do to chaos shuffle).

Edea
2008-08-11, 02:21 AM
1. True Mind Switch with a gated in Mind Flayer (the ultra one with +9 LA and 12 HD from Lords of Madness preferably). You get True Mind Switch from a Power Stone. With Factotum you should have 13 ranks in it, a +2 tool, and +2 from Psicraft syngery. Your at +17. Now a +10 Shard and the Factotum skill bonus and you auto succeed. Now to get the Mind Flayer. Use a scroll of gate, you auto succeed on the UMD check to emulate a CL of 17 (same way as above), to gate in the mind flayer. Order it to lower all defenses and then use the True Mind Switch stone.

2. Gate in whatever it is that you want, order it to lower its defenses, and eat its brain.


Well, yeah, TMS/Gate abuse breaks the game regardless of Gestalt, and in vacuo can be done from level 1, much less level 10.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-11, 02:24 AM
Well, yeah, TMS/Gate abuse breaks the game regardless of Gestalt, and in vacuo can be done from level 1, much less level 10.

Yes, but you don't need to do it until later so you might as well do it as cheaply as possible without involving DM opinion (Pazo).

Siegel
2008-08-11, 02:39 AM
What is Cindy ?

I thought about Playing
Spellthief X / (Something that helps the Spellthief side / Spellthief) Y // Lurk 10 / Ebon Saint 10

I can steal spells, memorys, forms and have a Psy enchanced Sneak Attack, yeah.

Is this viable ?

Talic
2008-08-11, 03:20 AM
Cindy is an incantatrix based Metamagic abuse Blaster wizard build, that puts out absurd levels of damage, especially at higher levels, while remaining very difficult to harm.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-11, 03:41 AM
And Karsh and I invented it.

It gets even better when you throw in Pokeball's. At level 20 she can 1 shot any CR 20 monster.

Xuincherguixe
2008-08-11, 03:41 AM
How about Barbarian 20/ Psychic Warrior 20?

It's good, but not brokenly good.
Paladin, Ranger, or Fighter are good choices too.

Monk 5/Barbarian 15/Psychic Warrior 20 might be good too. At level 6 they realize that a) all those vows are dull, and b) that they've gotten most of what they really need out of the monk class.

Siegel
2008-08-11, 05:15 AM
And Karsh and I invented it.

It gets even better when you throw in Pokeball's. At level 20 she can 1 shot any CR 20 monster.

Can i have a link pls ?

SoD
2008-08-11, 05:20 AM
Pretty much anything//cleric of who-ever.

Playing a rogue who pays homage to Olimdamarra? Rogue//Cleric.

A proud Dwarven Fighter who sends his prayers to Moradin? Fighter//Cleric.

Etc. Depending on what your other class is, you can choose between the Cleric and the Cloistered Cleric. If you're a fighter, take CC, because you already get your good hit die, this way you get more skills as well.

Playing a Wizard? Take the Straight Cleric, again, for the better HD. Etc.

Eldariel
2008-08-11, 07:53 AM
Maybe. It has potential. But Cindy//Fighter is still better (do to chaos shuffle).

Factotum has few nice features though, like getting Int to Initiative (and all physical skills), autowinning encounters on level 8, Sneak Attack at will, the ability to improve Touch Attacks with Int against high Touch ACs, Int to AC, etc. Oh yeah, and the ability to ignore SR allows using more cost-effective spells. Chaos Shuffling all those feats would be ok, but I'm fairly sure the damage increase from having 4-5 Standard Actions is larger than the damage increase from more buffing feats (not to even start with Cunning Brilliance).

One option would be going Factotum 11/Fighter 2/Martial Rogue 2/Monk 2/Psy War 2/X 1 for a bunch of feats to shuffle (9 total) and the better Factotum-abilities (Cunning Surge, ignore SR, etc.).

Talic
2008-08-11, 08:17 AM
Factotum has few nice features though, like getting Int to Initiative (and all physical skills), autowinning encounters on level 8, Sneak Attack at will, the ability to improve Touch Attacks with Int against high Touch ACs, Int to AC, etc. Oh yeah, and the ability to ignore SR allows using more cost-effective spells. Chaos Shuffling all those feats would be ok, but I'm fairly sure the damage increase from having 4-5 Standard Actions is larger than the damage increase from more buffing feats (not to even start with Cunning Brilliance).

One option would be going Factotum 11/Fighter 2/Martial Rogue 2/Monk 2/Psy War 2/X 1 for a bunch of feats to shuffle (9 total) and the better Factotum-abilities (Cunning Surge, ignore SR, etc.).

Int to initiative < foresight + celerity.
Physical skills are usually better accomplished magically.
Cindy's already got the autowin descriptor.
Sneak attack is rather minor, compared to the death that's being slung already.
High touch AC is rare, and isn't insurmountable.
Int to AC is probably the weakest of the abilities, since AC doesn't really make you difficult to hit at high levels, generally.
Ignore SR? Now that's good.

Now, as for actions? Let's look at metamagic abuse for a second. You take 4 standard actions to hit a Pit fiend with 4 nasty save or lose spells.

Cindy hits up a quickened true strike, followed by a metamagicked Enervate for 22 negative levels... out of a level 4 slot. Then uses her second standard action to start making pancakes.

Alternately, hit up an orb spell, and get a solid 290 damage with 2 negative levels, with no SR.

Metamagic abuse is looked at as broken for a reason.

Eldariel
2008-08-11, 08:28 AM
Yea, but why don't you just do that 4 times? And Int to Initiative may be worse than Foresight + Celerity, but it's also available level 3 as opposed to level 17. Also, if you win the Initiative, opponent Foresight>Celerities, you can respond with your own Celerity and still win. You both only have one immediate action, so the person winning initiative is still winning the whole thing.

Note, this is about pairing e.g. Cindy with Factotum over Fighter. My guess is that while Chaos Shuffle would make those feats worthwhile, Factotum still provides more. Also, most of the Factotum-abilities are available fairly early; Int to AC is something you also get on level 3 (for 1 Inspiration). Cunning Knowledge would also help with the first metamagics for Incantatrix when you first get the abilities (Incantatrix begins to Persist spells on CL8, when failing the Spellcraft-check without custom items is still possible).

Greg
2008-08-11, 11:56 AM
What about Druid/Cleric?

Eldariel
2008-08-11, 12:10 PM
As I brought up earlier, it's a solid combo - Druid gives you Animal Companion that has Share Spells; this allows you to make a whole ton lot mileage out of DMM: Persist and Cleric buffs. Things like Divine Favor get insane with a large number of natural attacks, for example. Also, he can of course actually BUFF the companion, or Chain Spell the buffs or such to avoid having to keep the companion next to you. All in all, considering how similar the two classes are, they complement each other surprisingly well.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-11, 12:12 PM
Don't forget, there's a feat that lets the shared spells remain up till 30' out. Pretty good for a buffmeister.

Chronos
2008-08-11, 01:19 PM
I'm not sure precisely what wizard PrCs would fit with this, but how about

Wizard 1/human paragon +2/wizard PrC X 6/wizard +11 // human paragon 1/factotum 8/chameleon 10/Y 1

Full casting as a wizard, plus:
+8 to Int, +6 to some other ability score (human paragon and chameleon)
Extra standard actions (factotum)
Int bonus to a whole bunch of things (factotum)
Extra spell slots, which can be used for any spell, arcane or divine, from any list including your banned schools, up to level 7 (this makes it a lot easier to ban, say, Necromancy, since you can still pick up Enervation and Waves of Exhaustion) (chameleon)
A soulmeld shaped to every body slot (from the chameleon bonus feat, used on Shape Soulmeld)
Whatever item creation feat you might want (again, from the chameleon feat)
Your spellbook filled up for free (chameleon bonus feat yet again, Extra Spell)
Some boosts to saves, BAB, hitpoints, skill points, available skills

I'm not sure what would be the best choice for that last level... Possibly re-arrange some levels, and use it to cover for a wizard PrC with one lost casting level?

Eldariel
2008-08-11, 01:23 PM
Unfortunately, the build runs into the problem that Wizard PrCs are vastly more powerful than Chameleon. Therefore, you're giving up a lot of potency by going for Chameleon instead of Incantatrix, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Malconvoker or even Recaster (PrCs that lose caster levels tend to be much stronger in Gestalt due to the ability to make up for the lost levels on the other side).

Shovah
2008-08-11, 01:58 PM
Druid 10/Planar Shepard 10//Wizard 5/PRC 5/Wizard 10?

Granted I'm hardly a DnD Pro, but combining Planar Shepard with full arcane casting can hardly be a bad thing.
And maybe it can't really pull off the huge metamagic combinations certain other builds can, but.. Planar Shepard!

Eldariel
2008-08-11, 02:02 PM
Incantatrix is more powerful, so you'll want to preferably spend the PrC-slots on the Wizard-side. Also, relying on two separate casting stats means one side will be way underpowered.

tonberrian
2008-08-11, 02:21 PM
Can you take Ruby Knight Vindicator in gestalt? With Divine Impetus (swift action for 1 turning attempt), the spell Arcane Spellsurge (quickens standard action spells), and a ton of Nightsticks, you can end an encounter on your turn. The basic build would be something like this:

Wizardy-stuff 20 // Crusader 1/Cleric 4/RKV 7/ Stuff 8

Of course, you've got MAD (Int, Wis, Cha).

hmm... maybe sorcerer... better at spamming spells...

Eldariel
2008-08-11, 02:41 PM
No, unfortunately Ruby Knight Vindicator is a dual progression and thus banned by the normal Gestalt rules. I touched upon the matter in my earlier post. However, DM can allow it and in the event that one does, it becomes pretty much first pick material; Divine Impetus solves so many problems Gestalt-characters face it's not even funny, especially combined with the infinitely recurrable martial Swift Action-maneuvers.

You could try an Archivist/Crusader/Sacred Exorcist-basis for Int SAD. The turning levels aren't even much of a loss, since you'll burn your Turn-attempts on the RKV-abilities anyways. The obvious problem is that Sacred Exorcist cannot be taken before level 8 due to skill prerequisites though, which delays the entry by a few levels. The other option costs another casting level, which would be to take a level of Cleric with the Archivist, taking turning and feats from Cleric and Archivist for RKV casting.

Benejeseret
2008-08-11, 02:46 PM
Spellthief/assassin // wildshape Ranger/MoMF

*optimize to taste and add Master Spellthief

Play as a Mongrelfolk race to get the sound mimicry - so no matter what you find, you can take its powers, take its form, take its face, take its voice.

A ghost-faced killer has nothing on this guy.

monty
2008-08-11, 02:49 PM
No, unfortunately Ruby Knight Vindicator is a dual progression and thus banned by the normal Gestalt rules. I touched upon the matter in my earlier post. However, DM can allow it and in the event that one does, it becomes pretty much first pick material; Divine Impetus solves so many problems Gestalt-characters face it's not even funny, especially combined with the infinitely recurrable martial Swift Action-maneuvers.

Actually, by RAW it isn't explicitly banned, it's just highly suggested that you do so.


Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations...should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes...

Emphasis mine.

Chronos
2008-08-11, 03:46 PM
Unfortunately, the build runs into the problem that Wizard PrCs are vastly more powerful than Chameleon.Eh, the main power of wizard PrCs is that they advance wizard casting, which this build gets anyway. Beyond that, I suspect it's mostly just a symptom of the fact that a lot more effort has been put into optimizing for wizard PrCs than for Chameleon. And you can still fit in six or seven levels of wiz PrC goodness, if they're early-entry (or if you're willing to postpone some of the Factotum levels).

Vexxation
2008-08-11, 04:26 PM
Druid 10/Planar Shepard 10//Wizard 5/PRC 5/Wizard 10?

Granted I'm hardly a DnD Pro, but combining Planar Shepard with full arcane casting can hardly be a bad thing.
And maybe it can't really pull off the huge metamagic combinations certain other builds can, but.. Planar Shepard!

Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10 // Wizard 5/Malkonvoker 5/Wizard 10

Turn into anything, summon more of it.

Signmaker
2008-08-11, 04:26 PM
Bard5/Stormsinger3/SublimeChord6/SeekeroftheSong6//Rogue20

Meh. I like the idea of zapping people with SA'd Electric Bolts whilst jamming magic.Hooraaaay Complete Mage.

Eldariel
2008-08-11, 04:31 PM
Incantatrix can Persist 3+Int spells per day. And that's only the level 3 ability. In addition, you get reduced metamagic costs, no-adjustment metamagic on cast spells, ability to metamagic spell triggers and a bunch of bonus metamagic feats. Oh yeah, and the cooperative metamagic-stuff to metamagic allies' spells. And the ability to steal spell effects. It's just...it kicks a "non-infinite Wish" Planar Shepherd in the nuts (of course, that's mostly the Wizard-casting, but having ~10 Persistent spells running at all times in addition to everything else and being able to steal opponents' spells doesn't hurt) - and that's saying a lot.

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil has basically inpregnable protections. And an extra level 9 spell. Recaster just has tons of free metamagic to fly around. And Malconvoker binds Balors et al. Much of Wizard's power is the spellcasting, true, but the best Wizard Prestiges tend to simply be more powerful than the comparable Prestiges for other classes. +6 Int is great, no question there, but it's not gonna get you an extra 9th level spell compared to the 36 Int wizard (18+5+5+6+2 racial/Paragon). +8 would do it, but that would require much more effort.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-11, 04:46 PM
Factotum-3, UA/SRD Major Blood Line -3, Binder -3, Ur Priest -2, Anima Mage -8, Martial Adept or Spell Thief -1 // X-20 to Personal taste (Up to 5 PRC levels (Possibly a few more with Feat Tricks or PRCs like Master Specialist)) as long as it isn't a divine spellcaster.

DizzyD
2008-08-12, 05:42 AM
I played a barbarian/scout once. Took the pounce alternate class feature for the barbarian out of the complete champion. That was pretty much the only Change I made. The build was awesome and the game play was really fun. The -2 to AC from the barbarians rage was offset as long as i moved 10 feet and the extra skirmish damage added to my keen falchion was awesome. Plus a full attack after charging, high hit dice and tons of skills.

I basically had a special ops soldier. It was insane.

Talic
2008-08-12, 06:12 AM
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil has basically inpregnable protections. And an extra level 9 spell. Recaster just has tons of free metamagic to fly around. And Malconvoker binds Balors et al. Much of Wizard's power is the spellcasting, true, but the best Wizard Prestiges tend to simply be more powerful than the comparable Prestiges for other classes. +6 Int is great, no question there, but it's not gonna get you an extra 9th level spell compared to the 36 Int wizard (18+5+5+6+2 racial/Paragon). +8 would do it, but that would require much more effort.

IotSV is not "basically impregnable". Decent High save beasties can barrel through both veils. It's a good defense, but anything that can reliably make saves can offer some nasty surprises to an IotSV.

Smeggedoff
2008-09-17, 07:59 AM
not sure if this belongs in this thread, but.
Can anyone help me out with picking a second class, I'm fairly indecisive.
I'm playing a gestalt campaign, and am considering to make my first class warlock.

I was initially considering Binder as my second class (single dependency on Charisma ftw) but am unsure how that would work out
I'm considering going for a sort of sith vibe (eldritch blast look like lightning, carry a wand of flame blade etc) I'm less worried about out and out power and more about theme, maybe monk for the second class? (my DM's OKed a scimitar variant of whirling steel strike if I want to make good use of the flame blade in that event)

any advice would be great, cheers :)

edit: oh, also considering drow as the race and my DM's ruled that the LA only effects one class progression, so advice on which class to lose the levels in would be helpful too, or whether taking two levels of fighter to balance the two main classes would be a good idea

Crazy Scot
2008-09-17, 09:21 AM
My favorite broken Gestalt combo: Warforged Factotum 20 // Erudite 10 / Metamind 10 (with the Erudite ACF to get Arcane spells). The benefit of this build is the focus on one ability score (Int), while giving you the opportunity to become the ultimate battle machine.

How it works -> This requires a few key powers (Schism and Temporal Reiteration). Activate the 10th level power of Metamind called "Font of Power" which gives you 1 minute of unlimited power points. Next Round: as your standard action, manifest Schism to get a "second" mind, and use your swift action to manifest Temporal Reiteration. Temporal Reiteration says that the last round doesn't count toward the duration any ongoing effect on you. So now your 1 minute (10 rounds) of unlimited power points now will last for 11 rounds. For the rest of time: have your "second" mind manifest Temporal Reiteration continually, thus making any power with a duration longer than instant have an infinite duration.

How to break it even more -> using UMD/UPD, you can get your buffs to go on forever. Key spells/powers to get: Choose Destiny (Destiny Domain), Veil of Undeath (Spell Compendium), Planar Bubble, and any other buff spells you want/can get your hands on. The last thing to throw in the mix would be the power Timeless Body (XPH) which says that your body ignores all harmful and helpful effects, making you invulnerable to all attacks and powers, until the end of your next turn. And since the last round doesn't count to the duration (see above), this would continue indefinitely. And with Planar Bubble continually going on around you, you will have normal magic capabilities no matter where you go, forever.

More levels of brokeness -> The 19th level power of Factotum allows you to mimic any (Ex) class ability of a base class (if they would get it before 15th level) for 1 minute (read: forever). This opens the door to a vast amount of options for your actions/turn. I would stay away from Rage/Frenzy and the like, as it would never end and you couldn't cast spells or do anything that required concentration. For offensive spell/psionic powers just choose your blasting powers (and combined with the Practiced Manifester feat) and pump 24 pp into offensive powers every round without running out of pp.

I would argue that this character could stand up to just about any opponent short of a God. Some characters could act first with the right combination of spells/abilities, but you couldn't hurt him with spells/powers/for damage. Some characters might be able to move quicker than him, but since he doesn't need to sleep and never runs out of pp, it falls to the old saying "You can run, but you can't hide forever." Simply put: he is eternally invulnerable to attacks and powers, and never runs out of options/abilities/pp. Good luck taking him down. :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2008-09-17, 09:28 AM
D&D Gods are effectively level 1 though... (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801) But yea, Erudite/Factotum with Spells to Powers-variant can be sufficiently broken early on. Factotum/Incantatrix is probably way more broken way earlier though ("broken" as in "level 8, all encounters end in 1 round and I basically always go first"). And Factotum/Artificer isn't bad either. Heck, Factotum/Archivist can be busted.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2008-09-17, 11:01 AM
Simple and effective; that being my motto:

Goliath Barbarian 2 / Fighter 4 / Frenzied Berserker 10 / X // Swordsage 20.

Make sure you pick up 'Extra Rage' at L1. Also keep in mind that this is a 'Flaw' build for the feats.

Feat builds can either be:

Power Attack -> Improved Bull Rush -> Shock Trooper

-or-
Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip -> Knock Down (Sword and Fist book) ; but Setting Sun kinda takes this out of the equation.

-or, depending on # of levels-
Power Attack -> Improved Bull Rush -> Improved Sunder -> Shock Trooper -> Combat Brute

Focus on the Setting Sun discipline, and have a decently built Cleric in the party. You will be taking a lot of damage, and you need something to stop you from killing everything in the party.

I choose Swordsage because of the insane amount of Maneuvers that you get access to, ridiculous skill points, good Reflex and Will saves, and flavor. It's just the thought of a Frenzying Goliath executing some throwing maneuvers from Setting Sun. Tiger Claw would be phenomenal with this character too.

Chronos
2008-09-17, 01:13 PM
Can anyone help me out with picking a second class, I'm fairly indecisive.
I'm playing a gestalt campaign, and am considering to make my first class warlock.

I was initially considering Binder as my second class (single dependency on Charisma ftw) but am unsure how that would work outThe obvious thing to do with a warlock/binder is to take levels of Hellfire Warlock, and use Naberius to heal the Con damage you take from using hellfire. Other than that, you'll mostly want to pick vestiges that give you passive or continual abilities, since you'll probably be spending most of your actions on Eldritch Blast and invocations. The vestiges that give you Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike might be good, since they'll work with your blast.

On the other hand, you might want to choose something with expendable abilities (spells or psionic powers) for the other side, to give you the option of going nova when needed, while still having your at-will invocations to fall back on. Psionics could be used to give a lot of the feel of the Force, which you seem to be going for.

erikun
2008-09-17, 01:52 PM
This looks like a fun thread. :smallsmile: I tend to focus on base classes, though, and not too much on prestige classes.

Anyways, first thought is Barbarian//Druid. Buff yourself, turn into something big, then rage away.

Sorcerer//Bard is fun - just giving the Sorcerer more skills, more HP, healing/illusion spells, and UMD. Cleric//Druid gets a bunch of healing, but doesn't really do much more than a standard Cleric or Druid.

I happen to like the Scout and archery Clerics, so a Scout//Druid or Scout + Ranger//Druid would be a very nice combination to work with. Unlike just a Ranger//Druid, you'd be able to take apart (and put together) traps. :smallwink:

One character I'm currently working on is a Wizard 5/Maester 5/Effigy Master 10, so try mixing that with //Artificer for extra magical goodies. I said I don't usually work with prestige classes, not that I never do. :smallbiggrin:

Smeggedoff
2008-09-17, 02:46 PM
The obvious thing to do with a warlock/binder is to take levels of Hellfire Warlock, and use Naberius to heal the Con damage you take from using hellfire. Other than that, you'll mostly want to pick vestiges that give you passive or continual abilities, since you'll probably be spending most of your actions on Eldritch Blast and invocations. The vestiges that give you Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike might be good, since they'll work with your blast.

On the other hand, you might want to choose something with expendable abilities (spells or psionic powers) for the other side, to give you the option of going nova when needed, while still having your at-will invocations to fall back on. Psionics could be used to give a lot of the feel of the Force, which you seem to be going for.

I hadn't thought of that combination (despite rereading the vestiges yesterday and the hellfire warlock class yesterday too)
I had wondered about something like warlock/wizard for the pure ability to nuke and fall back on eldritch blast like you said, I've never looked into psionics, don't know why. Are there any specific psionic classes you have in mind

I've considered playing a wizard/monk too and taking the "Kung Fu Genius" feat from the dragon magazine compendium, would this be a good combination?

thank you for your help

Draz74
2008-09-17, 03:15 PM
Beguiler 19 / Mindbender 1 // Swashbuckler 3 / Factotum 8 / Warblade 9. The ultimate flamboyant, swashbuckling duelist-type a la Erroll Flynn.

Scout 20 // Ranger 1 / Fighter 2 / Warblade 2 / Dervish 10 / Warblade 5 with Swift Hunter. Now you know what real TWF is.

Chronos
2008-09-17, 03:21 PM
I've never looked into psionics, don't know why. Are there any specific psionic classes you have in mind
Probably Wilder, since they're Cha-based. Then again, though, Warlock doesn't really get all that much out of Charisma (just DCs for those invocations with saves, and UMD), so depending on what invocations you pick, you could just go high-Int, low-Cha.

I've considered playing a wizard/monk too and taking the "Kung Fu Genius" feat from the dragon magazine compendium, would this be a good combination?So basically you've got someone who wouldn't be wearing armor anyway and with Int as highest score, getting Int to AC whenever not wearing armor, plus a few other bonuses. Monk's actually a pretty good class to use in gestalt, since you don't need to spend actions to use most of their abilities, leaving all of your actions free for wizardy goodness.

wadledo
2008-09-17, 03:44 PM
I've always wanted to play a Wizard 5/ Earth Dreamer 5/Runecaster 5/Geometer 5//Warblade ??/Dwarven Fighter ?(for the feats and heavy armor)
No paticular reason, but it is damn cool.:smallbiggrin:

Smeggedoff
2008-09-17, 06:57 PM
So basically you've got someone who wouldn't be wearing armor anyway and with Int as highest score, getting Int to AC whenever not wearing armor, plus a few other bonuses. Monk's actually a pretty good class to use in gestalt, since you don't need to spend actions to use most of their abilities, leaving all of your actions free for wizardy goodness.

essentially yes :smallsmile:
My DM uses the class defense rule too, so I'm tempted to throw a level of fighter in at the start for an AC boost throught, the bonus feat wouldn't hurt either I guess. only problem being that I'd have to lose a level of wizard progression because of the monk limitation

monty
2008-09-17, 06:59 PM
If you take fighter before monk, there's no multiclass problem, unless your DM enforces XP penalties (which are really weird in gestalt). You only can't progress in monk if you multiclass out and try to go back in.

Smeggedoff
2008-09-18, 04:57 PM
ah, good to know. ta for that :smallsmile:

Rei_Jin
2008-09-18, 06:03 PM
I always viewed Gestalt as an option to increase the survivability of characters, rather than to break the game.

Hence, I like the...

Bard1 - Knight 19//Monk2 - Hexblade3 - Sorceror6 - Sublime Chord 9

Charisma bonus to all saves against spells AND armor class, Mettle AND Evasion, no longer fail saves on a Natural 1, Level 9 spells, etc.

SCPRedMage
2008-09-18, 07:20 PM
Playing a rogue who pays homage to Olimdamarra? Rogue//Cleric.
The last gestalt game I played, I played a Rogue//Cleric of Boccob, Magic and Trickery domains. Works pretty well, especially if you're using the churches from Complete Champion; the Eternal Library grants a bonus to your affiliation score for having ranks in Bluff, Disguise, or Hide, not to mention stealing and/or deceiving people out of magic items...

SCPRedMage
2008-09-18, 07:29 PM
I always viewed Gestalt as an option to increase the survivability of characters, rather than to break the game.

Hence, I like the...

Bard1 - Knight 19//Monk2 - Hexblade3 - Sorceror6 - Sublime Chord 9

Charisma bonus to all saves against spells AND armor class, Mettle AND Evasion, no longer fail saves on a Natural 1, Level 9 spells, etc.
Things like this make me sad, because this kind of multiclassing was NEVER intended. Not to mention, it only happens because people ignore the cumulative 20% penalty for every class not within two levels of each other. This particular build would have at LEAST a 40% XP penalty...

erikun
2008-09-18, 07:34 PM
How are you supposed to be both a chaotic bard and a lawful monk at level 1 anyways? :smallwink:

Rei_Jin
2008-09-18, 07:47 PM
Things like this make me sad, because this kind of multiclassing was NEVER intended. Not to mention, it only happens because people ignore the cumulative 20% penalty for every class not within two levels of each other. This particular build would have at LEAST a 40% XP penalty...

The problem with multi-classing restrictions is how do you adjudicate it for gestalt? Is each side independant of the other?

That's how I've run it with this one. Also, the MUST BE CHAOTIC for the bard part can be gotten around, as long as you don't mind not being able to progress in bard past level 1. Which I'm not.

You'll note that on one side, Knight is the main class, and the only other class is level 1. On the other side, Sorceror is the main class, with Monk and Hexblade within 1 level of each other.

This build works perfectly fine (asides from the possibility of the alignment issue of the bard) with a human or half-elf. You just pick LN as your alignment and ask your DM to ignore the 1st level of bard alignment restriction. Even if he says "you won't be able to take more levels of bard", you shrug and move on. It doesn't affect you anyway.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-18, 08:02 PM
This build works perfectly fine (asides from the possibility of the alignment issue of the bard) with a human or half-elf. You just pick LN as your alignment and ask your DM to ignore the 1st level of bard alignment restriction. Even if he says "you won't be able to take more levels of bard", you shrug and move on. It doesn't affect you anyway.Or you just had an alignment change before the game started. I had a Druid 7//Monk 1/Barbarian 4/Warshaper 2 at one point. (For those wondering, I made the backstory first, that's just how I statted him. He also put a 13 into Str as a Halfling Druid. It was just random chance that it worked out with him being really good)

Jack_Simth
2008-09-18, 11:29 PM
Probably Wilder, since they're Cha-based. Then again, though, Warlock doesn't really get all that much out of Charisma (just DCs for those invocations with saves, and UMD), so depending on what invocations you pick, you could just go high-Int, low-Cha.
So basically you've got someone who wouldn't be wearing armor anyway and with Int as highest score, getting Int to AC whenever not wearing armor, plus a few other bonuses. Monk's actually a pretty good class to use in gestalt, since you don't need to spend actions to use most of their abilities, leaving all of your actions free for wizardy goodness.
You can do similar stuff with Ascetic Mage as a Sorcerer, or no feats needed at all if you're using a Cleric or Druid.

Personally, though, my local favorite (not the most mechanically optimized, but very good nonetheless) would be the Druid//Ninja; Wis to AC (as a Monk), Wis-based casting (Druidic), Wildshape (at 5th+) so you can dump your Strength and Dexterity scores, trapfinding, Swift-action invisibility (usage boosted by Wisdom), Sudden Strike damage to go with the multiple attacks and Pounce gained through Wildshape, eventually picking up the ability to hurt things while Ethereal, permanently see Invisibility, and go to the Ethereal plane virtually on a whim, 6+Int skill points/level, and monk-perfect saves. Goes very well with a way to avoid the need for equipment - such as the Vow of Poverty - so that you don't lose all your nifties when you use Wildshape.

Smeggedoff
2008-09-20, 01:48 PM
sigh, Gestalts and Dragons and Supermounts, oh my!
been looking at a supermount build from the of "favourite gestalt builds" topic and one thing causes headaches for me and my DM.
one of the main parts seems to revolve around this feat, printed in dragon magazine 325

Theurgic Mount [General]
your special mount benefits from your arcane knowledge.
Prerequisites:Ability to gain a paladin special mount, ability to cast arcane spells.
Benefit:when determining the abilities of your paladin special mount, you can combine the levels of your paladin with the levels of your arcane spellcasting classes. For example, a 5th-level paladin/4th-level sorcerer can grant his paladin special mount abilities as a 9th-level paladin.

now the build I read seems to interpret this as also adding your arcane levels to your paladin levels for the porposes of what mount you can summon (using judicious application of the Dragon Steed feat.

now while I'd like to beleive this was true my DM doesn't think so and i have to agree with him. what are your opinions? is there anything official that would allow you to stack arcane and paladin levels for the purposes of what you can summon?
cheers for your input

Jack_Simth
2008-09-20, 02:51 PM
sigh, Gestalts and Dragons and Supermounts, oh my!
been looking at a supermount build from the of "favourite gestalt builds" topic and one thing causes headaches for me and my DM.
one of the main parts seems to revolve around this feat, printed in dragon magazine 325

Theurgic Mount [General]
your special mount benefits from your arcane knowledge.
Prerequisites:Ability to gain a paladin special mount, ability to cast arcane spells.
Benefit:when determining the abilities of your paladin special mount, you can combine the levels of your paladin with the levels of your arcane spellcasting classes. For example, a 5th-level paladin/4th-level sorcerer can grant his paladin special mount abilities as a 9th-level paladin.

now the build I read seems to interpret this as also adding your arcane levels to your paladin levels for the porposes of what mount you can summon (using judicious application of the Dragon Steed feat.

now while I'd like to beleive this was true my DM doesn't think so and i have to agree with him. what are your opinions? is there anything official that would allow you to stack arcane and paladin levels for the purposes of what you can summon?
cheers for your input

You use the best progression in gestalt. This doesn't make your steed progress any faster. If you've got a Paladin-5//Sorcerer-5, you get a mount as a 5th level Paladin. If you've got a Paladin-5/Sorcerer-5//Rogue-10, you get a mount as a 10th level Paladin (as the Rogue side doesn't give you any mount progression) with the feat.

Smeggedoff
2008-09-20, 03:16 PM
so if you have a wizard 16//paladin 5/X10
do you count as a lvl 16 paladin for the purposes of what kind of creature you can summon as a mount? because the Theurgic mount feat seems to say it only effects abilities and not what you can summon

Chronos
2008-09-20, 04:36 PM
That would seem reasonable: You can argue that one of the paladin's mount's abilities is "the ability to be a Dragon Steed", or whatever. But of course, the DM has final say on this (or any other) question.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2008-09-20, 04:44 PM
I've toyed with the idea of a Beguiler//Swordsage/Angel of Death (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62659). Obvious focus on Shadow Hand and probably Diamond Mind.
Someone I know told me about a Beguiler//Wilder combo that was really really good at just screwing with people through illusion and mental manipulation. Fought against it once, and despite what the character thought, I never got less than 60 feet from it.

Edit: Also just thought of this, Warblade//Swordsage. Two lists of maneuvers, full BAB, all good saves, d12 HD, 6+Int modifier skill points a level. Only issue is some multi-stat dependency.

Aneantir
2008-09-20, 08:52 PM
Edit: Also just thought of this, Warblade//Swordsage. Two lists of maneuvers, full BAB, all good saves, d12 HD, 6+Int modifier skill points a level. Only issue is some multi-stat dependency.

I actually built this once, but with Master of Nine in the build on the Swordsage side. I took Martial Study (Crusader's Strike) at the start, and ended up with 42 maneuvers and all the level 9 ones by the time I hit level 19.

And it's actually not MAD, really. You only need Strength/Con, and maybe some Dex if you don't want to use Mithral Fullplate. Intelligence and Wisdom are very much optional in the build.

Noelor
2008-09-21, 01:23 AM
As I like Incarnum (most under-appreciated splat book in 3.5 by far), my favourite gestalt, which I'll be using soon, is a Halfling Totemist 20 // Monk 1 / Swordsage 19, using the halfling totemist racial substitution levels.

Unarmed attacks from the Monk/Swordsage side, mainly shadow hand with setting sun and stone dragon. Fairly standard. Totemist gives appropriate of skill bonuses, some fun utility (10+ foot Dimension Door at will, resistance to knock-back, that sort of thing) and, through essentia, shifting bonuses to AC, hit and damage.

That, and the theme is cool. Nothing like a halfling with a krenshar mask and a crown (among other pseudo-items) running through a dungeon punching things in half.