Sargeras v.s Asmodeus [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Steven the Lich

2008-08-11, 08:02 PM

Sargeras is not just another evil overlord. He is a very powerful manipulater, the former mightiest warrior of the Pantheon, and commander of hundreds upon thousands of demons.
That powerful mortal who defeated him? I know a single orc who could swipe the floor with her (BROXIGAR FTW!). He allowed her to defeat him (Even then, he was weaker as he took on an avatar to enter Azeroth), so he could place himself in her blood and then corrupt her offspring, none other than Medivh. He then unleashed the orcs upon the world, and caused the first war, after which the kingdom of Azeroth was leveled by the blood thirsty orcs. It was all his plan, and one of the few set backs he had was the storming of Karazhan led by Lothar to kill Medivh, and even then, Sargeras had a good laugh I imagine as Lothar had to kill his child hood friend to exile Sargeras. Sargeras has yet to be officially declared dead in fact, he was just tossed off into the Twisting Nether.
As for his very prescense... The dragon who took on the form of Krasus said at the Well of Eternity, if all of the demons serving Sargeras made it through but not him, there was a chance. If none of the demons made it through except Sargeras? Screwed. :smalleek:
Sargeras also had the strongest sword in the universe, which broke into two, and he made half of it into a sword of pure evil and chaos! Likely matched only by its other half, which was forged into the exact opposite.

Onto the minions.
The Nathrezim are pretty clever by the standards of the demons (Some of the legions best strategists were dread lords... Tichondrious for good example). They weren't chosen to be the Lich Kings jailors because of their dress code.
The pit lords are big... Their blood alone is responsible for corrupting the orcs and giving them an intense blood rage (Which was sadly taken out on the poor humans of Azeroth:smallfrown:). They aren't push overs either. It took one of the best warriors of the Horde to fell Mannoroth, after we see Thrall get tossed aside like a play thing.
The eredar... don't even get me started on them. They are the best spellcasters of the legion, with a surplus of magic to wield. Archimonde was one of the strongest, and was near invincible. The objective of the mission you fight him in... is to hold him back... theres no stopping him. Kil'Jaeden is absolutely cunning, deceiving Ner'Zhul by taking the appearance of his mate and leading him to himself, leading to the orcs corruption. He is seen in cut scenes in The Frozen Throne... and he is BIG! It was enough to make Illidan cower. Illidan!
Infernals, succubi, wrath guards, doomguards, Terror fiends, fel guards, imps, fel orcs, fel elves, moarg... What more is there to say?

What does Asmodeus have going for him? I don't know much about this lord of hell, so I'm saying Sargeras right now.

EDIT: Someone put up a link to where we can find out more about Asmodeus.

Innis Cabal

2008-08-11, 08:49 PM

The Lord of the Nith bleeds Pit Fiends. 150% loyal Pit Fiends. He has so many plots and plans that(supposedly) the Bloodwar not only was made by him, is continued because of him, but is to actually bring him more power and to distract heaven while he heals up. The Lord of the Nine you see is -not- the true body, its an Avatar. The Pit Fiends alone, not a legion, not an army, but hundreds of armies, win it for him.

If it was army v army....the Devils win, Big A steps in? Ya.

Really, Orcus is a better fight.

Steven the Lich

2008-08-11, 09:22 PM

Bago!!!

2008-08-11, 09:54 PM

I've seen the stats for Asmodeus, but I say Sargeras. Sargeras has incredible power, so in battle, Sargeras wins.

In a battle of wills, It could go either way. Sargeras is as powerful as any god in a D&D setting. Asmodues could be defeated with enough people in D&D of high enough level. Sargeras? At his full power? He destroyed so much. Theres only one who managed to stand against him for a short while, and that was Broxigar, and he was totally AWESOME! Yet he still died.

Sargeras' power is just too much for Asmodues.

Innis Cabal

2008-08-11, 10:03 PM

Two things.
First, I think you are underestimating Sargeras.
Second, you haven't actually responded to my points.

What does Asmodeus have going for him? I don't know much about this lord of hell, so I'm saying Sargeras right now.

I told you what he had going for him, i left out spellcasting.

It takes 4 end level characters(before epic) to take down a pit fiend. Asmodeus is a beast. The stats he has are not him. They arnt. If your going on fluff, Asmoedus is fluff to. That stat block you see is nothing but a facade. He was made(according to the Fiendish codex) and tricked the most powerful creatues in existance, and thats why he is at the bottom of Nexus. What does he have going for him? Literaly an eternity of plans-, the cunning of ages wrought through hate and pain, and an army who can cast wish. And they are his foot soldiers. Should we bring in his big guns....things like the demon with teeth that can cut your head off(they are in the Fiendish Codex, forget the name) then things get very bad very fast. And those are just what he bleeds. You have to wonder what he is -actualy- doing down in the Pit bleeding. He isnt playing Tic Tac toe.

Also i gave you the info that(according to Lore) the Bloodwar. The Comsic Battle of Evil vs Evil was made by him, for no reason other then enjoyment and to grow more powerful. He made creature slike Orcus and good ol'Demo fight him, on his terms, by his rules. Because every rule is his rule. I would hate to use tvtropes...because their cliche and over-used. But Asmodeus from D&D(Please look at 2nd ed, Vile Darkness is laughable, or heck, check out Dicefreaks, they did it right) invted the Xanatos Gambit before it was the Xanatos Gambit.

Bago!!!

2008-08-11, 10:08 PM

So what are Asmodeus' official stats?

Innis Cabal

2008-08-11, 10:09 PM

Like the Lady of Pain, his real body dosnt have offical stats. "Frickin Powerful"(tm) or "Multi-verse shattering" is his powerscale. He is on par with the LoP, perhaps a little lower.

Also, people are using fluff for his opponent, this is one of the few times fluff can go against fluff. Let it happen. At the very least, Big A knows the end result before it happens, makes sure it dosnt happen, but makes it look like it did, and then come back to have a chuckle and throw him into control of one of the 8 layers. Not like he has never done that before.

GoC

2008-08-12, 03:25 AM

When he has his normal horde of demons on hand, Sargeras usually begins a fight by casting enlarge person, displacement, haste, mage armor and shield on himself, plus slow on as many enemies as he can. He identifies the most powerful threat in a battle and instructs his own most powerful forces to focus on the single threat until it's dead or at least banished from the fight. He then identifies the next most dangerous foe, and continues in this way working down the ladder until he is victorious. Sargeras uses his most powerful spells and abilities first, such as domination on evil outsiders; energy drain on an enemy spellcaster; blasphemy on visitors from other planes; or power word stun, disintegrate, phantasmal killer and flame strike. He uses quickened telekinesis to toss enemies around and disrupt his enemies’ attempts to coordinate their side of the battle.

So his most powerful spells aren't even D&D epic?:smallconfused:
Anyway he has an Str rating that in D&D terms would be around 60 and Collosal+ roughly the same as a Stone Colossus from the epic handbook.
From what I can gather he seems around CR 30 or so unless he has other abilities than the ones listed here (http://http://www.wowwiki.com/Sargeras).

Setra

2008-08-12, 09:33 AM

Sargeras is more powerful than Archimonde, right?

Didn't Archimonde destroy a City of Wizards by drawing in the sand?

Querzis

2008-08-12, 10:06 AM

Sargeras is more powerful than Archimonde, right?

Didn't Archimonde destroy a City of Wizards by drawing in the sand?

Yeah he sure did. Basically, Sargeras is a lot stronger then his entire army...and his entire army is above ten billions demons, many of which are almost as strong as Archimonde.

I dont know Sargeras CR, the only CR that was mentioned in the RPG books was the CR of his avatar and even then I dont remember it (if anyone got it, please tell us). But I do remember that Arthas the Lich king is CR 50 and Archimonde is CR 55...And Sargeras is supposed to be able to beat an army of those guys easely.

The Titans are the ones who created many species and worlds across the universe...and Sargeras is the Titan who easely kicked the ass of all the other Titans combined.

Azeroth is full of bloodthirsty gods, badass hero who can beat army and ancient abomination...and even then, its already been confirmed that if Sargeras would ever manage to get on Azeroth, he could destroy the entire world even if he has no minions with him.

Hes not just a god. Hes the guys who kick the ass of gods for breakfeast.

The greatest injury anyone ever gave him is a very small scratch on his leg...and even then, everyone was really surprised because nobody ever scratched him before (Broxigar was badass though he did had a weapon crafted by a demi-gods and the most powerfull druid so its not just him).

Well, Sargeras is mostly dead. Laid low by a mortal even, avery powerful mortal, but a mortal nonetheless. But then, considering what he did after he was dead, it's hard to say.

What? Sargeras never died. It was just one of his avatar and he did it on purpose. By the way, dont say hes not smart, Sargeras isnt just a big dumb strong guy. In that Xanatos gambit, he allowed one of his avatar to be destroyed so that a part of his soul could corrupt Medivh before he was even born.

Now I gotta admit I dont remember much about Asmodeus, maybe hes also a guy who kill gods for breakfeast. But I was just annoyed by how you underestimate Sargeras.

ArlEammon

2008-08-12, 12:22 PM

Asmodeus is of the rare variety of D&D god that has the power to compete with Marvel cosmic beings. His falling through Hell in 2nd Edition created the 9th layer of Baator. If something should happen to Jazirian, Asmodeus would conquer the universe unnoposed.

chiasaur11

2008-08-12, 12:56 PM

Innis Cabal

2008-08-12, 01:05 PM

Lady of Pain is at a level above Asmodeus, but slightly just. And you need to be in Sigil for her to harm you....maybe....

Bago!!!

2008-08-12, 04:45 PM

So Asmodeus true power has no stats?

Alright.

But where did you get all of these history stuff with Asmodeus? Whats the source? Is it in a specific edition or multiple?

I still give it to Sargeras for now. Asmodeus I would rank as powerful as Kil'Jaeden or Archimonde. Maybe a little more powerful. Sargeras, would destroy every plane he came in contact with. He is more powerful than a god. More powerful than a host of titans. More powerful than the entire burning legion. The only reason why he has not won is because he cannot gain access whenever he pleases.

And if Asmodeus is so powerful, how was he cast out of the higher planes in the first place?

Sargeras' power was immense to start out with. But guess what? Its been growing with every world thats been destroyed by him. Now, the total number of worlds destroyed by Sargeras is...... COUNTLESS!!!!! Asmodues' power of divination will help see the outcome of a utter anhilation. The moment he steps on foot of anyworld, its considered game over, no matter what.

Innis Cabal

2008-08-12, 04:54 PM

Querzis

2008-08-12, 06:11 PM

Its been the history since 2nd ed.

How was he cast out? Because. No matter how powerful you are. There is something bigger, meaner, and stronger then you. And most times, it dosnt just want your lunch money. Take into consideration. Asmodeus is the PRIME EVIL. The First Evil in the multi-verse, which is just a warground for the aligments, as seen by the Wind Dukes war.

Asmoedus dosnt destroy the multi-verse and take it over because, simple as anything thing else. There are more powerful things then him at work. It may just be there are alot of them, which is also the case but thats not the point here. The same question can be asked of Sargeras. If he can do all these awsome powerful things, why hasnt he? You havent actually offered any sort of proof here.

Uh no actually we already covered that. We told you, no matter the fact that there is many gods, demi-gods, badass heroes and ancient abomination on Azeroth, its considered game over if he ever get there and absolutely no one even deny that. Its just that he never got on Azeroth. But he never lost in his true body, he destroyed countless worlds alone, kicked the ass of all the Titans and gods he ever met easely, even when they team up after him. He didnt destroy Azeroth because he never got on Azeroth, its not that complicated! The other Titans try to use their most powerfull spells to keep him from discovering the worlds they created like Azeroth, thats why he gotta use minions.

Anyway, you kinda shot yourself in the leg when you said: «Because. No matter how powerful you are. There is something bigger, meaner, and stronger then you.» Well no. In the Warcraft universe, there is absolutely nothing bigger, meaner and stronger then Sargeras. Not only that, but Sargeras could kick the ass of all the other big, mean and strong things in the world even if they unite to fight him. Look, could Asmodeus easely beat everything and everyone in hell even if they unite against him? If the answer is no, dont expect him to beat Sargeras.

True Asmodeus can cast epic spells. Something another pointed out Sergaras is unable to do because of the power scales. What spells he has cast arnt epic according to another poster.

We have no idea whats his spells and power are, thats the point. But one of his minion, Archimonde, easely destroyed a big city by drawing a couple a circle in the sand. Another, Mannaroth, corrupted an entire race to do his bidding just by making a few of them drink his blood. Dont try to find those spells in a D&D book but I'm sure it would count as epic. And Archimonde and Mannaroth, the CR 55 Archimonde, are described as nothing but fleas compared to Sargeras.

Either way, one of the few things we know is that hes supposed to be a warrior more then a mage so his spell arent the problem as much as the fact that he kill absolutely everything with one hit of his sword and never seems to get hurt.

Lets just look at what he's -done- in the terms of history. He orchastrated his own Coup. Routed it. Told everyone he did it, and put them all back in power because they werent threats. These arnt low rung devils. They are unique powerful creatures that the weakest forms a powerful and mindnumbingly painful opponent for all but the cheesest builds. Least of all in every argument, rules are the first thing to go in a Vs thread. Look at the fluff.

Look I'm not denying hes probably smarter then Sargeras, I just dont see your freaking point. Sargeras and Asmodeus are facing each other, who win? Thats what we wanna know. I dont care about the rest.

The only argument we've seen thus far for the other side is "He wins because he's awsome powerful". He controls a demon plane just like Asmodeus. He commands legions..so does Asmodeus. 9 infintite planer levels of them. Large enough to go against the -Coutless- numbers of demons, and break more then even. From all you've given, Seragas isnt very bright. Where as Asmodeus is...to use a very light word, a genius. Through sheer tactics alone Big A, his real self, would chew apart all but the most powerful good powers.

The point is not that he control a very large and powerfull demonic army. The point is that the large demonic army follow him because he could kill every last one of them without breaking a sweat and nobody doubt that even one second. It doesnt matter how many follower he has because his ten billions demons army full of CR 55 is supposed to be nothing compared to him. Thats also why I dont know why you keep bringing Asmodeus army into this. Their army doesnt change anything or at least it doesnt for Sargeras. If Asmodeus really actually need his army to fight someone then he already lost. Sargeras just use his army to prepare portal so that he can get to worlds protected by the other titans. Otherwise he doesnt need them.

Steven the Lich

2008-08-12, 06:22 PM

The only argument we've seen thus far for the other side is "He wins because he's awsome powerful". He controls a demon plane just like Asmodeus. He commands legions..so does Asmodeus. 9 infintite planer levels of them. Large enough to go against the -Coutless- numbers of demons, and break more then even. From all you've given, Seragas isnt very bright. Where as Asmodeus is...to use a very light word, a genius. Through sheer tactics alone Big A, his real self, would chew apart all but the most powerful good powers. That is not at all our only argument. No one who faced him, true form or no, ever lived without his intention, exception only being Lothar killing Medivh. His power is beyond comprehension, it is said his arrival in a world would mean certain destruction.
He destroyed countless worlds, with the single purpose of remaking creation to perfection. Before then, he fought demons of all sorts and numbers alone, until he came about exceptionally corrupt ones which made him wonder why they did what they did.
Demons aren't girl scouts knocking on your door selling cookies, neither are they buisness men going door to door with phone books. They are intent on destroying creation with no bars held. You know what? There are countless species of demons (Kil'Jaeden was assign to find the darkest of them and recruit them), and no specific number of their true population. Give or take, millions at least.

Saying that Sargeras is stupid? That's like saying Paris Hilton spends a penny a day only. Sargeras plans ahead plenty, allowing his avatar killed to possess his adversaries son Medivh. Unleashing the orcs upon Azeroth. The one thing he didn't count on was Lothar's intervention to kill Medivh, likely because Medivh was Lothar's childhood friend, and who would expect that?
Asmodeus seems to have a bunch of plans that make little sense. Where is he getting in all these plans, eh? Where is he in hell? The bottom. Does he choose to stay there? Because if he is that good in plans, he should have gone somewhere else. I'd seriously consider taking over the world, especially after being tossed down to hell from heaven, making two new planes as a result of all the falls. That there is a very big ouch.

EDIT: Querzis actually covered my point pretty well.
Consort to the red dragon aspect says clearly that if all of the demons working for Sargeras made it through, there was hope. If they didn't but Sargeras managed, there is not a minimal chance of survival.

Innis Cabal

2008-08-12, 06:34 PM

Why move base when you've got something going for you? Asmodeus isnt weak because he dosnt move. And his plans don't make sense to us. They all have a purpose. He isnt insane.

Its game over when he hits the "material" plane. What would you say would happen if Asmodeus hit the material plane? Same thing guys. He has a demon army of countless types, only the scariest are shown? There are at least 5 monster manuels of 3.5 filled with devils, so many its redundant. You keep mentioning his army like its a strong point, which is why I brought up Asmodeus's. So it works both ways.

Epic Spellcasting. Destroying a city? Ask about the city location bomb. None a single one of those are epic. Its more then easy enough to take down a city with non-epic spells. Plus, he's a -demon-, if a mortal spell caster can do that...what can the Devil of Devils do? You've yet to adress the Epic Spellcasting issue.

And not caring who can plan better then the other sort of -does- win this. Every point counts in a one on one battle, the one who can plan better is often on top.

konfeta

2008-08-12, 06:53 PM

Sargeras wasn't stupid, but he isn't exactly bright. He has demonstrated nothing that would set him as an exceptionally intelligent being. All he has going for him is yet as-of-unspecified power - which is, while great, not nearly as good as you point it out to be.

To be exact, you guys are fanwanking.

The Titans are the ones who created many species and worlds across the universe...and Sargeras is the Titan who easely kicked the ass of all the other Titans combined.

Sargeras' power was immense to start out with. But guess what? Its been growing with every world thats been destroyed by him. Now, the total number of worlds destroyed by Sargeras is...... COUNTLESS!!!!! Asmodues' power of divination will help see the outcome of a utter anhilation. The moment he steps on foot of anyworld, its considered game over, no matter what.

Point Zero Point One - Titans didn't create worlds. They ordered them. They come to a world, cleanse their tyrants, and then make it to their vision.

Point one - Sargeras isn't anywhere close to being stronger than the rest of the Titan combined. He was picked to be their first line of defense, he is their greatest warrior... But he is not good enough to challenge his own race. Notice that, despite his belief that Titans are responsible for the failure of creation, he didn't immediately go to wipe them out. Notice, that despite being tremendously powerful, he elected to build an army first. Notice, that he is effectively preying on weaker targets, i.e. defenseless worlds instead of going after the main good guys. For example, Azeroth - Well of Eternity. He wanted it. Badly. To the point of risking his Crusade to get it. To him, it was a source of nigh-unlimited energy. Guess who created it? That's right, the Pantheon, who he supposedly can obliterate with a thought according to the fanwank.

The circumstances I described present that either Sargeras isn't anywhere close to being as all powerful as you make him out to be, or his brawn is making up for a rather disappointing lack of brain.

Point two. The Burning Legion hasn't destroyed anywhere close to "countless" worlds. The highest numbering used to describe their total kill count is "thousands". Their Burning Crusade is said to attack only a few worlds at a time.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Burning_Crusade

Yes, Sargeras is strong enough to single-handily wipe out worlds or destroy lesser races. But he isn't strong or good enough to single-handily invade worlds. He *needs* an army. He hasn't demonstrated himself to be powerful enough to challenge the Pantheon directly. He can't even control his own lieutenants - Kil'Jaeden is actively plotting to take over the Burning Legion; Archimonde was confident that consuming the World Tree would make him strong enough to challenge Sargeras directly for leadership of the Legion.

I don't know how strong Asmodeus is, but I from what I do know about Sargeras, he isn't anywhere close to being unstoppable or a Xanatos Roullete sprouting Magnificent Bastard.

Bago!!!

2008-08-12, 07:53 PM

Steven the Lich

2008-08-12, 07:59 PM

Sargeras isn't dumb, but he isn't your average guy on the street. He came up with a plan that I don't think everyone could get. Sargeras is far from average brains.

Yes, Sargeras is strong enough to single-handily wipe out worlds or destroy lesser races. But he isn't strong or good enough to single-handily invade worlds. He *needs* an army. He hasn't demonstrated himself to be powerful enough to challenge the Pantheon directly. He can't even control his own lieutenants - Kil'Jaeden is actively plotting to take over the Burning Legion; Archimonde was confident that consuming the World Tree would make him strong enough to challenge Sargeras directly for leadership of the Legion. His focus is more on the worlds, not the Titans. If he was seriously this much of a pain and incapable of defeating the Pantheon, why haven't they dealt with him? I'd say one of the few titans that could challenge Sargeras and maybe win is Aman'Thul, who is the Warcraft-verse's god (Like Eru was for LotRs). If Sargeras was truly unable to take out the Pantheon or match them in power, surely they would have dealt with him by then.

We know Sargeras could defeat all the demons under his command easily... Why? He already did hand their asses to them once before.
Kil'Jaeden is currently the leader of the Burning Legion, at least near Azeroth. Where does it say that Kil'Jaeden hopes to usurp leadership of the Legion?
I believed that Archimonde wasn't interested in the World Tree. Do you even know what is beneath the world tree? The Well of Eternity. The World Tree blocks it energies from escaping. Please quote the paragraph that says Archimonde desired the World Trees powers to usurp Sargeras. I must say, this is news to me. However, doesn't matter, as they are both inferior to Sargeras nonetheless, since currently Kil'Jaeden is not strong enough to defeat Sargeras clearly, and Archimonde... Well, hes dead now due to the rage of nature, sacrifice of the Night Elves immortality, and wisps rising up against him. Something I'm pretty sure would obliterate Asmodeus.
Also, Sargeras defeated most of his army once already with ease and was alone doing so. They aren't going to rebel against him, even at Kil'Jaedens will. There isn't much chance of victory.

Point two. The Burning Legion hasn't destroyed anywhere close to "countless" worlds. The highest numbering used to describe their total kill count is "thousands". Their Burning Crusade is said to attack only a few worlds at a time. At a time. Can you fathom how many worlds they destroyed over 1000 years? Try 50'000 years then. I can say countless worlds easily. What you are saying is they can destroy a few worlds at a time, which doesn't exactly prove us wrong at all.

Epic Spellcasting. Destroying a city? Ask about the city location bomb. None a single one of those are epic. Its more then easy enough to take down a city with non-epic spells. Plus, he's a -demon-, if a mortal spell caster can do that...what can the Devil of Devils do? You've yet to adress the Epic Spellcasting issue. Did you hear that the city destroyed was in fact the capital of all wizards? And you say destroying a city isn't epic? Well funny thing, he used one spell alone. The Burning Legion has a series of lieutenants that can do unbelievable stuff, easily classified epic. I think there may be something wrong with how you are classifying the spells in Warcraft.

Its game over when he hits the "material" plane. What would you say would happen if Asmodeus hit the material plane? Same thing guys. He has a demon army of countless types, only the scariest are shown? There are at least 5 monster manuels of 3.5 filled with devils, so many its redundant. You keep mentioning his army like its a strong point, which is why I brought up Asmodeus's. So it works both ways. But he won't hit the material plane, because as you say, there are bigger things he fears at work.

Pardon me for saying, but it seems likely that where Asmodeus gains in brains he likely loses in Brawn. Can Asmodeus take on his own army and win? Without any underlings?
I think that demons in Warcraft are driven more strongly than devils in D&D.

PS: I could say you are fanwanking for Asmodeus with all these ridiculous plans. Denying his given stats as well? He got kicked out of heaven and fell on every branch on the way down. I consider being sent to hell a serious demotion.

EDIT: I looked at the history for Asmodeus... Kind of messed up. Not in the actual story, but in the creators own knowledge of it. The Book of Vile Darkness and Tyrants of hell conflict with each other, along with other stories.
There is just one thing though that seems to bite Asmodeus hard. He is still recovering from the wounds he received from his fall. Current disadvantage.

Innis Cabal

2008-08-12, 09:03 PM

I've stated at least several times, his bleeding wounds spawn Pit Fiends. Which are in orders of magnitude greater then even the highest non epic adventurer. A single wish spell can take out a city. None epic. One Spell. 9th level. Boom, a pit fiend can take out a city.

Second, no one said Asmodeus fears the other powers. There are in fact more powerful things then Sageras, the other Titans. Just because they haven't killed him dosnt mean their weaker. Why do the Uberpowerful gods not all march in on Asmodeus's bleeding broken body? Why dosnt the Big E of FR just blast away the ultrapowerful epic spellcasters of EVIL? Because it would cause aton more problems then it would solve. There are other evil things in Warcraft. Kill the big guy, and the ants swarm.

Unless you can actually provide more evidence then the WoW wiki then its really hard to get a grasp of his power. And before you cry foul. Go out and look at the published nonalterable books. There is your proof.

On the "more then one story of Big A. Your right, there are. They may be conflciting. None of them might be right. The only thing we do know is

1. There is an Asmodeus. He made himself known in 2nd ed.

2. He is the absolute ruler of the 9 hells. So much its master he can let other people rule it from the shadows for eons(perhaps) and not even show himself

3. He is in orders of Magnitude on par with the Lady of Pain(whose shadow flails people alive) and The Serpent(Who is according to some....namingly the Lich God, and published in Die Vecna Die....lets ignore its widely seen as the worst book ever published for D&D, is still cannon and the herald for 3.5) which is the very form of arcane magic, and other such powers. He is a Titan in terms of D&D.

I'm also wondering why you keep bringing up his army(which really is the only thing you've mentioned other then his generals) when if Asmodeus has to bring his out he loses...Is it the Big A versus the Burning Legion? Because that has happend, and its still going on. Its called the Blood War. You say the world is on a smaller scale in D&D? Even though the planes are limitless and can hold a limitless number of demons and devils? Lets not bring size into this?

Bago!!!

2008-08-12, 10:00 PM

Innis, site one source that mentions any titan more powerful than Sargeras. Better yet, site one source that says the entire host is powerful enough to defeat him.

Kill the big guy, the ants swarm, then their back to square one against a new luitenant with Sargeras' complete sword at hand.

Wowwiki is consisted of info found in WoW, WoW RPG, and Warcraft with information from other published works. Its the main source. What you ask of us is like us asking you to give us the official ruling of Asmodeus' rise to power. The official and ERRATED story.

And not all of us want to go out and buy the books, nor do we know where to buy them.

1. No arguements there.

2. He is currently the absolute ruler of hell. There are tales that indicate that he may not have been the first, but not that he's been ruling behind the scenes.

3. Why should we ignore it? You want us to ignore Wowwiki?

If I recall correctly, there aren'y any CR 55s on the Demons side in the Blood War. The Burning Legion is epic. They're not like the swarm of demons from the abyss. They wield the power of mages, they are masters of the twisting nether (the source of chaos and magic), they aren't fighting amoungst themselves, and they are organized.

Excuse me? Limitless planes? I thought there was only 9 hells? And if I recall, most of the planes revolve around one world. JUST one world. Warcraft has many worlds that interact with each other, some more than others. Not only that, there are other worlds that are seemingly endless. And I thought the devils didn't have a limitless army. Sure they have good numbers, but the demons were the endless horde of chaos and destruction. And the reason why its the only other thing we've mentioned is that is all he has troop wise. Powerful generals and a great legion. Summed up atleast.

Who is the Lady of Pain?

konfeta

2008-08-12, 10:09 PM

Actuelly, I would say we don't know how smart Sargeras really is. All we know is that he hasn't had any trouble. He's had his plans, he's manipulated. And above all, He has many years of experiance on his hands. A Titan at that, so to say that he isn't bright is just an insult on his part. Fighters are not dumb. Infact, the most effective ones tend to use their head as much as any other weapon. Atleast the ones that live long enough.

Until he demonstrates the prowess of his mind, he isn't anything special. He has the requisite mind to handle his powers, nothing more cunning than that. And so far, the most intricate thing he managed to pull off was possession of Medivh through his mother. Wooptie do, that's Batman level genius there.

His power is great. It even stats in Wowwiki that his power is greater than all the other titans. He's resistant to physical harm and powerful magic, so my guess is that only someone of his equal power could even touch him with magic. Infact, his power was so great, that it was described as nearly limitless.

The wiki says his power is greater than any individual Titan, not all of them at once. There is a big difference between being the best, and being downright better than everybody else combined. The phrase "limitless power" doesn't mean much, especially considering how he really, really wanted some more "limitless power" from the Well of Eternity. Alternatively, "limitless power" could refer to his endurance or just be a poetic descriptor. However, the reality as portrayed by the universe's historical events, his power has very real limits. Otherwise, why the hell does he need an army? Can't he just tear through whatever defenses the worlds he seeks to burninante with his "limitless powers?"

Thats beside the point. They possess tremendous cosmic power, making the gods of D&D look inadiquate at their jobs. Course, they stick around with their one material world. The titans have an entire universe to run and order.

If thats the case, then do tell the reason why the titans had to have Sargeras' former officer take over his job of combating the universe. The man who hates Sargeras with a passion, but is too chicken to go and take the other half of the sword. I'll tell you why. Because they aren't powerful enough to take him at once. The reason why he has an army is because he looks for every edge he can get. He fights dirty, he fights to win.

Their "Tremendous Cosmic Power" is given pause by local Gods such as the Old Ones in Azeroth. No offense to the esteemed Titans, I am sure they are very powerful and have many grateful worlds owing their state of existence to them, but they also have very real limitations which prevent them from countering the Burning Legion directly. Hell, they weren't even aware of it's existence during ordering of Azeroth.

As for the Pantheon's new champion, he isn't suicidal. He knows Sargeras is stronger than him. He knows Sargeras has a demonic army by his side with beings that led to his corruption. He isn't gonna try to weaken the Pantheon further just to go out on a vengeance spree without knowing definitevly that he can defeat Sargeras. He may just as easily believe that even though he kills Sargeras, he will cost the Pantheon significant power and endanger their mission. Don't confuse intelligently cautious treatment of a threat as proof of Sargera's super-duper nigh-unstoppable power.

They attack only a few worlds at a time because they are truely focusing on one world. Azeroth. Why? Because it would be a boon greater than numerous of worlds. Not only that, the legion has a grudge against this world. And even so, thousands still add to his already immense power.

The point is, Sargeras IS the prime evil of the worldcraft universe. Asmodeus is the prime evil of the D&D world. The only difference is D&D has a smaller playground (taking place in one world). And where does it say Kil'jaeden is plotting to take control of the legion? And where does it say Archimonde was going to take the power to take down Sargeras?

The last source I've seen of Legion's killcount is in the Warcraft 3 manual in the Burning Legion section; numbering destroyed worlds in the thousands. Not tens of thousands, or any number beyond that. With over 50 thousand years worth of time to work with, that's not exactly impressive. If the way the Burning Legion attempted to infiltrate Azeroth is of any indication (barring their first invasion), these are jobs that span from decades to centuries; depending on how well the world is defended.

And no, Sargeras is NOT the prime evil of Warcraft universe. He is a wayward fanatic who goes around destroying worlds at a fairly slow pace. He is merely the threat focused on at the current time. The race of Titans isn't even a race that creates Worlds - they are more akin to the Xel'Naga from Starcraft or the Old Ones from Warhammer, only in fantasy flavor.

Kil'Jaeden boasted about his plans of taking control of the Burning Legion during the Sunwell Plateau raid. As for Archimonde, can't find exactly where I heard the quote, but he pretty much either said it during the last mission of Wc3, or it was stated in one of the Warcraft manuals. Besides, the fact that he wanted to drain the energies of the World Tree for himself (as opposed to crushing all resistance and then finding Sargeras to offer it to him) should make his lack of true loyalty fairly obvious.

Sargeras isn't dumb, but he isn't your average guy on the street. He came up with a plan that I don't think everyone could get. Sargeras is far from average brains.

As I said, he has requisite intelligence for a guy having the status of being a God should have. He isn't exceptionally intelligent by standards put forth such as Ner'Zhul (an Orcish warlock) or Kil"Jaeden, etc.

His focus is more on the worlds, not the Titans. If he was seriously this much of a pain and incapable of defeating the Pantheon, why haven't they dealt with him? I'd say one of the few titans that could challenge Sargeras and maybe win is Aman'Thul, who is the Warcraft-verse's god (Like Eru was for LotRs). If Sargeras was truly unable to take out the Pantheon or match them in power, surely they would have dealt with him by then.

A. Because they had no idea about what he was doing until after Azeroth was created (his army was well under way).

B. He has a bloody army of some of the worst Demons by the Twisting Nether at his side. He never was stronger than the Pantheon, which is why he needed an army to match them in the first place. The Pantheon never even considered him to be the only defense against the Demons, he was only the first line of defense. That means, there were other, and logically more powerful options available to them in fighting demons.

C. Let's take the following progression - Sargeras leaves Pantheon, is incapable of challenging it. He therefore builds up an army. Pantheon finds out about him, and now they are in a deadlock. Pantheon can't afford to make the sacrifice necessary to take out Sargeras and his entire army; and visa versa. Both sides have a mission they want to personally see fulfilled without leaving it up on the less reliable others.

This makes far more sense than the non-nonsensical "He doesn't feel like killing them." You first pronounce him as an above average in intelligence guy, and than proclaim that his focus is essentially killing the results of the problem (ordered creation) as opposed to the problem itself (the pantheon)? Where is the logic in that?

We know Sargeras could defeat all the demons under his command easily... Why? He already did hand their asses to them once before.
Kil'Jaeden is currently the leader of the Burning Legion, at least near Azeroth. Where does it say that Kil'Jaeden hopes to usurp leadership of the Legion?

No, we don't. A. We know that he defeated them one by one. B. His army grew in size since the original races he used to start building it. We don't know if he is capable of annihilating it (bigger in size and not divided) in one go. The Kil'Jaeden/Archimonde point was addressed above. The worlds destroyed point was addressed above. (to reiterate, the Burning Legion hasn't exactly demonstrated speediness as one of it's virtues - their invasions are typically the finishing stroke, most of the work is done setting the invasion up. And if Azeroth is of any indication, they take their sweet time doing the set up.)

Look, I am not denying that Sargeras is badasrse or that he is incredibly strong. What I am denying is the unreal elevation from "this guy is walking around destroying worlds with a fairly impressive demonic army" to "supreme unstoppable evil of the universe." If he was anywhere close to being as good as you guys are making him out to be in your poetic descriptions of him, he would have won got out of Metzen's Warcraft Bible and punched him in the face.

Innis Cabal

2008-08-12, 10:12 PM

Have you actually cracked open any of the D&D book's lately? Yes, they are the 9 hells. There are 9 layers. Each, according to the 3.5 DMG or the manuel of the Planes, are infinite. As its an infinite plane. Its hard for you to argue against a source you don't know about, and its pretty clear after all the posts you have no idea. There are no stats for the generals of the bloodwar, but i can assure you since most are unique demons, they are either just at below epic or epic.

Cite one source that says -he- can beat all the Titans. As other people have said he cant, its a toss up. You guys dispute that among yourselves. Ill use the info present with Asmodeus. There are more then one story because there is more then one source of the fluff. None of them are retcon. The original points since Planescape remain the same. He is the leader of hell. His real body is at the bottom of Nessus and waits the prayers to heal him. In the mean time he is bleeding CR 26 demons. Which by the way are epic, since their CR is above 20. The Bloodwar is Epic to. There are in fact plent of above CR 20 demons and devils both fighting in it. If you want a full list i can post it.

Lets tackle the "one world" thing. It is stated in the Plane of Shadow entry that it can be used to get to other material planes. Look at Spelljammer. FR, Krynn, they are all there. All planes marked infinte do not end. Baator is one of them. There are limitless worlds, And chances are, they have devils, and they serve...Big A

As for an army. So does Asmodeus. He can use the other lords of the nine, and the Dark Eight. All of whom are well and truely epic in scope. Asmodeus has an infinte plane full of devils, ranging from CR 1 to CR what ever he feels like, as he can make new ones or mold old ones as he sees fit. He bleeds them, if he really wanted he could unleash the legions(and im betting its more then 1) of CR 26 devils out and say "All of you, cast wish...NOW!"

I asked you to ignore the fact the very concept of Die Vecna Die was stupid. Not that it happend. Because as sad as it is to say, it did, and we got 3.5. The fact remains that Asmodeus is on par with the entities listed above.

The Lady of Pain is the very....entity of Sigil. So powerful the most powerful gods sit down, shut up, and sip their juice box's when she asks them to.

GoC

2008-08-13, 07:37 AM

Also, Sargeras defeated most of his army once already with ease and was alone doing so.

What is "most"?

Eldan

2008-08-13, 07:49 AM

Ok... how do you explain Asmodeus' power to someone who has no idea about what he can do? People who have never read Planes of Law, Hellbound or Faces of Evil?
Seems difficult.
So, the "Bleeding Pit Fiends"-stuff isn't impressive enough, even though every one of them can easily kill armies and destroy cities. Okay.
Now, someone mentioned "Show us how Asmodeus took on all hell and won." He did. It's called The Reckoning. Look it up.
There are countless material worlds, probably an infinite amount. Most of them know Asmodeus in at least one disguise. Power to him.
Why doesn't he destroy the prime material plane? Because it's the main source of belief. And he is a master at manipulating it. It gives him power. Every tyrant, every machiavelli-wannabe, every mind-controller, every lawful-evil creature in the multiverse makes him stronger.
And he already is frikkin strong.

Innis Cabal

2008-08-13, 04:05 PM

Talkkno

2008-08-13, 04:26 PM

So, the "Bleeding Pit Fiends"-stuff isn't impressive enough, even though every one of them can easily kill armies and destroy cities. Okay.

Since when Pit fiends throw around megaton level spells? And no, game mechanics don't count.

Innis Cabal

2008-08-13, 04:30 PM

hamishspence

2008-08-13, 04:59 PM

Fiendish Codex 2 "de-infinited" Hell: each layer now has a size: possibly if you keep walking outwards, you start walking inward from other side.

That said Asmodeus still bleeds pitfiends with max HP, and they bleed lesser devils.

Innis Cabal

2008-08-13, 05:28 PM

The Plane itself is still infinite, the layers just arnt.

Point still remains, Big A wins.

Callos_DeTerran

2008-08-13, 06:02 PM

Y'know, and this is mostly a question for the person who made this thread, it'd be much easier to argue Asmodeus's case if we knew WHICH version there is of him. Just WotC? Dicefreaks? The winged platypus's tale (Note: There's no such thing the winged platypus's tale, I'm just using it to make a point)?

In any case, with pure WotC Asmodeus, I'd say it's a pretty even fight if Sargeras didn't just turn out to be an avatar of Asmodeus. Keep in mind that he's part of a group called the 'Ancient Ones' or some such that counts the most powerful beings in the D&D MULTIVERSE among it's members, and it's a very selective membership. These are beings that are powerful enough they can generally tell the overgod of any particular world 'Hey guess what? New management, convert or fall forever' and theres a reasonable chance that Overgod is doing exactly that.

To say Asmodeus would just lose would be like saying Good's victory is absolute so the bad guys should all just give up and turn into right proper celestials. So, again, lemme know which Asmodeus it is and then I'll argue this cause it seems vaguely interesting.

Innis Cabal

2008-08-13, 06:15 PM

Callos_DeTerran

2008-08-13, 06:54 PM

They're all the same Asmodeus. The Dicefreaks conversion is just one more on par with what he should be. The One from Vile Darkness is a fuax body.His real power, like teh Lop or Ao(or his master) will never(God willing...ya...you see what i did there?) be published.

You should convert your statement to say "Know what your arguing against"

Correction, they are all not the same version. The Godspell campaign setting overlaps, doesn't envelop, any of the other ones from my understanding though many people are quick to create 'Dicefreaks' versions of their favorite entities so they CAN be used in that setting. Hence Dicefreaks Asmodeus is not the official Asmodeus. Book of Vile Darkness isn't because it's a middling CR 32 and it's own crunch does not allow for it's fluff. Tyrants of the Nine Hells isn't the real one because it admits at the beginning of the book that all the 'information' in the book could simply be devil propoganda to lure people in on the false pretenses of confidence. THIS is why I am asking which version I'm supposed to argue for. All of them aren't official (some more then others) so it's mostly a matter of choice.

chiasaur11

2008-08-13, 07:03 PM

Correction, they are all not the same version. The Godspell campaign setting overlaps, doesn't envelop, any of the other ones from my understanding though many people are quick to create 'Dicefreaks' versions of their favorite entities so they CAN be used in that setting. Hence Dicefreaks Asmodeus is not the official Asmodeus. Book of Vile Darkness isn't because it's a middling CR 32 and it's own crunch does not allow for it's fluff. Tyrants of the Nine Hells isn't the real one because it admits at the beginning of the book that all the 'information' in the book could simply be devil propoganda to lure people in on the false pretenses of confidence. THIS is why I am asking which version I'm supposed to argue for. All of them aren't official (some more then others) so it's mostly a matter of choice.

Huh. A little off topic (been doing that a good deal today) but the Tyrants fluff is interesting. Am I to take it that the stats inside, which presumably wold be used inside games, is deliberate lowballing? So, basically, demons underpower themselves by presenting false information? Huh.

More on topic, I have no idea who'd win. Whoever does, though, is probably gonna be hurting by the end of it.

Infernal Undead

2008-08-13, 07:55 PM

About the complaints that Asmodeus has no stats the newest stats in the Fiendish Codex 2 for the Lords of the Nine are considered aspects only. It's basically a living version of a scrying spell.

Also while I don't know much about Sargeras their is something the Asmodeus supporters haven't seemed to mention yet.

IF Fiendish Codex 2 is true the devils are created by extracting divine energy from the damned lawful evil souls and then redistributing the energy based on which devils manage to become the most efficient. At the top of the heiarchy is Asmodeus who controls the flow of divine energies thus he could stip the other eight Lords of the Nine of all of their power turning them into lemures. Their probably is enough energy to heal his wounds completely but he doesn't use it up. Why? Probably because he can get more out of it by waiting.

But assuming he does fully recover he still has limitless control overall of Baator since if anything tried to usurp him he could hust turn them into a mindless challange rating 1 lemure.

Since assuming the allignments are balanced he gets about 11 percent of all souls that are not claimed by gods, once they die. Since Asmodeous uses the divine energy in souls to create most of his devils once fully healed he could if he wanted to decrease the size of his army to increase its stregnth by demoting vast ammounts of devils and massively promoting other ones. He has legions of pit fiends. Lets say 6000 per legion wich a legion of soldiers is about that ammount. That means he could have Pit fiends with the power of 6000 pit fiends, although by that time they probably won't be pit fiends anymore.

Basically its impossible to fight just Asmodeus and not all of Baator since Baator is his main weapon.

Now then Asmodeus full power is of course going by these things alone impossible to say. Every generation that passess on on any world is another billion souls that he gains power from.

Thus who wins?
That depends on two thins
1. How fast can Sargeras gain more power?
2. How long has Asmodeus been arround for before they fight?

Talkkno

2008-08-13, 10:13 PM

They can cast wish. Simple as that. Not only that but thats only a -base- in the book. Most pit fiends(Not including the Dark 8) are far far stronger. Monsters still get XP for kills if they have class levels

Uh huh, cite a fluff example of a Pit fiend using wish to a destroy a city. Because you are saying that they can throw around nuclear levels worth of destruction.

Steven the Lich

2008-08-14, 09:47 AM

Uh huh, cite a fluff example of a Pit fiend using wish to a destroy a city. Because you are saying that they can throw around nuclear levels worth of destruction. Hell, that could very well be used to destroy existence. There has to be a restriction to it. Also, they can cast wish, sure... Can they themselves be the ones to give a wish? From my understanding of devils, they would rather try and ensnare mortal by granting such things to entice them. Thats something a devil would try to do in my opinion.
Besides, wishes tend to backfire always. The Fairy Odd Parents show is a very fair testement to this. Every episode, the main character wishes something, and it goes all haywire and he has to stop it. In Aladdin 2, Jaffar twists every single wish

The Plane itself is still infinite, the layers just arnt.

Point still remains, Big A wins. :smallconfused: Why does that make him a winner. We now know that Hell has limited space (Looped. May seem infinite, but no, theres a limit.), and you are still saying it is. We now know that there is a limit to how many soldiers he can hold... Sargeras has an infinite space to hold his own soldiers. (Twisting Nether, where all demon souls go, and where some return from, so in a way Sargeras' forces are in fact infinite)

Why doesn't he destroy the prime material plane? Because it's the main source of belief. And he is a master at manipulating it. It gives him power. Every tyrant, every machiavelli-wannabe, every mind-controller, every lawful-evil creature in the multiverse makes him stronger. Then Sargeras only needs to destroy the Material plane to weaken Asmodeus. Asmodeus is already at a disadvantage with his wounds, whether or not they are beneficial for pit fiend, as in Immediate combat, this will be as glaring a weakpoint as if it was from LoZ. Sargeras fights dirty, remember?

You forgot one thing. The Prayers of people -heal him- Yet he is still licking his wounds from his great fall. I'm beginning to doubt that an individual can do little to improve his power.

Now then Asmodeus full power is of course going by these things alone impossible to say. Every generation that passess on on any world is another billion souls that he gains power from. A billion souls a generation, and he still has something to be wary of in existence? Maybe those souls don't do much in actuality. Hmmm?

Now, someone mentioned "Show us how Asmodeus took on all hell and won." He did. It's called The Reckoning. Look it up. I did... it was an war of armies, and Asmodeus won due to his pit fiends... Not his direct intervention. Also, the armies were numbered in the millions... Sargeras has billions of demons to my knowledge. Actually, looking up the Bruning Legion, I found this.

the Burning Legion section says that the number of demons inhabiting the Twisted Nether was infinite.
That said, Sargeras' army could very well be unlimited.

What is "most"? The Legion expands, and Sargeras recruits more and more demons.

Until he demonstrates the prowess of his mind, he isn't anything special. He has the requisite mind to handle his powers, nothing more cunning than that. And so far, the most intricate thing he managed to pull off was possession of Medivh through his mother. Wooptie do, that's Batman level genius there. The most intricate thing even "mentioned". And that is actually pretty clever. He lured her to the location where he needed her by getting his minions to hunt dragons, and then he emerged to fight. We're talking about Aegwynn, the Guardian of Tirisfal, she isn't dumb. I would imagine that if Sargeras appeared when he did, he wouldn't have allowed himself defeated. Who could have foreseen his plan?

ArlEammon

2008-08-14, 12:42 PM

This is a conglomerate Asmodeus of various parts.

Callos_DeTerran

2008-08-14, 04:34 PM

This is a conglomerate Asmodeus of various parts.

This is a recipe for destruction methinks seeing how part of this conglomerate would be that Asmodeus is merely an avatar of the spirit called the Serpent which has scales as large as worlds. That would be the Dicefreaks version, for those who don't know, which clocks in at a CR of 99 I think as an Avatar.

Hell, that could very well be used to destroy existence. There has to be a restriction to it. Also, they can cast wish, sure... Can they themselves be the ones to give a wish? From my understanding of devils, they would rather try and ensnare mortal by granting such things to entice them. Thats something a devil would try to do in my opinion.
Besides, wishes tend to backfire always. The Fairy Odd Parents show is a very fair testement to this. Every episode, the main character wishes something, and it goes all haywire and he has to stop it. In Aladdin 2, Jaffar twists every single wish

There's only a few things worth more to a devil then it's life, and seeing how this is warfare they'll likely be using those wishes to survive or they can simply be ordered to do so. In a non-wartime though it would be used to ensnare mortals, yes. Also, this is relying on game mechanics once more so take this with a grain of salt, theres ways to wish without it backfiring (such as listed in the PHB) but more importantly if it's worded properly then it reduces the chance of backfiring. At genius/super-genius intelligence you can bet a Pit Fiend knows how to word it's own wishes properly and won't over extend itself.

:smallconfused: Why does that make him a winner. We now know that Hell has limited space (Looped. May seem infinite, but no, theres a limit.), and you are still saying it is. We now know that there is a limit to how many soldiers he can hold... Sargeras has an infinite space to hold his own soldiers. (Twisting Nether, where all demon souls go, and where some return from, so in a way Sargeras' forces are in fact infinite)

It doesn't make Asmodeus a winner but Hell has limited LAND not limited SPACE and many devils can fly pretty much at will. In any case actually ENTERING Baator to pursue Asmodeus is the height of folly. Infinite hordes have tried and failed to even get past the second layer before, devils proving very apt at defending their home territory.

Then Sargeras only needs to destroy the Material plane to weaken Asmodeus. Asmodeus is already at a disadvantage with his wounds, whether or not they are beneficial for pit fiend, as in Immediate combat, this will be as glaring a weakpoint as if it was from LoZ. Sargeras fights dirty, remember?

Destroying the Material Plane is...like...the worst possible thing Sargeras could even try to do. Then it's not just a fight between Sargeras and Asmodeus anymore, it's a battle between Sargeras and the Celestial Hebohad, the Five Companions, the Demon Lords, the Arch-Devils, various pantheons, and any epic level characters laying about with nothing to do. Aside from that the Prime Material IS a limitless plane with arguably infinite worlds in it. A lot more then a few of which have completely fallen to Asmodeus. Again, this is a LOT more. Sargeras may fight dirty but it doesn't mean it's a good idea either.

Yet he is still licking his wounds from his great fall. I'm beginning to doubt that an individual can do little to improve his power.

That would depend on the individual, wouldn't it?

A billion souls a generation, and he still has something to be wary of in existence? Maybe those souls don't do much in actuality. Hmmm?

A billion souls is too little a number. Disputable fact, but the distributation of alignments in the D&D verse is FAR from equal. Not saying Lawful Evil is the largest piece of the pie but it's probably up there.

I did... it was an war of armies, and Asmodeus won due to his pit fiends... Not his direct intervention. Also, the armies were numbered in the millions... Sargeras has billions of demons to my knowledge. Actually, looking up the Bruning Legion, I found this.

That said, Sargeras' army could very well be unlimited.

The Legion expands, and Sargeras recruits more and more demons.

Asmoedeus's armies won against the armies, it was Asmodeus himself who took on all but one of the other Lords of the Nine and was the victor when the smoke cleared. Cause lets be honest here...in a war like that a single Lord of the Nine utterly tips the scale if they are actively fighting but seven others means almost definitive victory. Having THE Lord of the Nine IS victory in Hell.

As stated above though, Asmodeus is hardly a novice when it comes to dealing with unlimited foes. He's been fighting the blood war for this long, hasn't he?

The most intricate thing even "mentioned". And that is actually pretty clever. He lured her to the location where he needed her by getting his minions to hunt dragons, and then he emerged to fight. We're talking about Aegwynn, the Guardian of Tirisfal, she isn't dumb. I would imagine that if Sargeras appeared when he did, he wouldn't have allowed himself defeated. Who could have foreseen his plan?

It's not bad. Asmodeus has saved a single child from a burning building so hundreds of years later the Child of Prophecy for a world would be essentially Asmodeus's lackey and conquered that entire world in his name. >.> THAT is for-thinking there...and a bit eerie. What does the mother of a child say when Asmodeus comes waltzing out of a fire to hand her an unscathed baby and say 'Here's your baby ma'am.'?

chiasaur11

2008-08-14, 04:50 PM

It's not bad. Asmodeus has saved a single child from a burning building so hundreds of years later the Child of Prophecy for a world would be essentially Asmodeus's lackey and conquered that entire world in his name. >.> THAT is for-thinking there...and a bit eerie. What does the mother of a child say when Asmodeus comes waltzing out of a fire to hand her an unscathed baby and say 'Here's your baby ma'am.'?

I think the proper response is "Um... Thank... You?"
Followed by a very high number of visits to seers, prophets, etc. to find out what the guy's goal is and ideally, help slow it down.

Or "Oops, I dropped it. Sorry."

Bago!!!

2008-08-14, 05:10 PM

Let me know what Asmodeus we are using please. If its this serpent one, then what could it possibly fear? Still, if its the serpent one, then it would probally win (though to be fair, Sargeras' actuel size is as yet unknown).

Word it all you want, there will always be a loop hole. Why? Because magic wants to bite your ass in some way. They have wish, that doesn't mean they can use it that well. If they could, they would have used it with far greater purpose. It is the most powerful spell in the world.

Brilliant idea, have the entire skys open. Target practice for Sargeras. :smallsmile:

If Sargeras destroys the whole material plane, All those guys would be weakened SEVERELY. Not only that, they are limited by their alignments, which means they would hinder each other if not outright attempt to destroy each other. Plus, Sageras would drain the power from the Material plane, granting himself even more power. And it would make some of the evil gods think "Hey! Lets join this guy! We may live and we'll get a chance to stab him in the back later!" or "More power? I'am in!" or "Anything for an excuse to blow things up!"

How you get past the defenses. Step 1, Enter First layer. Step 2, Blow up said layer. Step 3 Enter Next layer. Repeat step 2 and 3 from there till all layers are gone.

Lawful Evil as a large pie piece? I would disagree. Of the 3 evils, NE is the largest, CE the second, and LE the smallest. Compared to all the alignments? In this order. N, NG, NE, CN, LN, LG*, CG*, CE, LE.
Atleast, thats what I think. Everyone to their own oppinion on alignment.

Indeed it would...

Billion souls a generation? Thats Way to high of a number for any alignment, except maybe neutral, and thats stretching.

Asmodeus doesn't care for the Blood War that much from my understanding. Only one lord really cares about it, atleast I think so. Asmodeus hasn't been fighting it personally. His forces may have but not him.

Where did he do that? :smalleek: Thats just plain wrong! And what race is this boy? Can he beat a cat?

Callos_DeTerran

2008-08-14, 06:32 PM

Let me know what Asmodeus we are using please. If its this serpent one, then what could it possibly fear? Still, if its the serpent one, then it would probally win (though to be fair, Sargeras' actuel size is as yet unknown).

It doesn't fear anything, it respects the other two pieces of the three part entity it used to be a part of. Or it might not, from the sounds of it those two other pieces were shattered when all three broke apart and Dicefreaks hasn't gotten around to explaining those parts of the multiverse yet.

Word it all you want, there will always be a loop hole. Why? Because magic wants to bite your ass in some way. They have wish, that doesn't mean they can use it that well. If they could, they would have used it with far greater purpose. It is the most powerful spell in the world.

I think thats more like sadistic DM's want to bite the players in the ass someway. :smalltongue: But I see your point since assuming Wish could destroy a city with no backfire on the pit fiend is assuming a DM who allows Pun-Pun or an extraordinarily well-worded wish.

If Sargeras destroys the whole material plane, All those guys would be weakened SEVERELY. Not only that, they are limited by their alignments, which means they would hinder each other if not outright attempt to destroy each other. Plus, Sageras would drain the power from the Material plane, granting himself even more power. And it would make some of the evil gods think "Hey! Lets join this guy! We may live and we'll get a chance to stab him in the back later!" or "More power? I'am in!" or "Anything for an excuse to blow things up!"

My point is that if Sargeras attempts to destroy the Prime Material Plane then that interferes with EVERY deity's portfolio aside from those with an evil bent on destruction and THEY'LL interfere because THEY want to destroy everything. When faced with the loss of all belief from every mortal worshiper (I don't think outsiders even GIVE worship, just serve) then your going to see some major pulling for a coalition, despite alignment. They may disagree about methods but in the end the gods will see that the destruction of the Prime Material is AGAINST their interests, especially if you have somebody like Asmodeus who's interests it's REALLY in for Sargeras not to destroy the Prime Material.

How you get past the defenses. Step 1, Enter First layer. Step 2, Blow up said layer. Step 3 Enter Next layer. Repeat step 2 and 3 from there till all layers are gone.

Yes...because destroying a layer that not one, but two, beings have divinely morphic control over will be so easy as one is being attacked.:smalltongue: And that was moreso for the 'comparison of armies' view point instead of the one-on-one.

Lawful Evil as a large pie piece? I would disagree. Of the 3 evils, NE is the largest, CE the second, and LE the smallest. Compared to all the alignments? In this order. N, NG, NE, CN, LN, LG*, CG*, CE, LE.
Atleast, thats what I think. Everyone to their own oppinion on alignment.

As you say, everyone has their own opinion and that's besides the point for this debate.

Billion souls a generation? Thats Way to high of a number for any alignment, except maybe neutral, and thats stretching.

Asmodeus doesn't care for the Blood War that much from my understanding. Only one lord really cares about it, atleast I think so. Asmodeus hasn't been fighting it personally. His forces may have but not him.

Asmodeus only cares so far as he plans on abandoning the Blood War at a sufficiently proper moment to attack the Mounting Heavens when their least expecting it. His forces yes, he appoints people to fight in that 'meaningless' conflict.

Where did he do that? :smalleek: Thats just plain wrong! And what race is this boy? Can he beat a cat?

They didn't specify that, just said that his fore-planning went so far as that and voiced that as an example of one of the times he had. I just found it particularly humorous is all. I'm guessing human though.

Teacher: "So let's have everyone say what they did this weekend."
'Chosen Descendant': "Well...the Overlord of all Hell pulled me out of a burning building and gave me a lollipop."

chiasaur11

2008-08-14, 06:37 PM

They didn't specify that, just said that his fore-planning went so far as that and voiced that as an example of one of the times he had. I just found it particularly humorous is all. I'm guessing human though.

Teacher: "So let's have everyone say what they did this weekend."
'Chosen Descendant': "Well...the Overlord of all Hell pulled me out of a burning building and gave me a lollipop."

Man, that would be the best show and tell ever.

konfeta

2008-08-14, 06:58 PM

The most intricate thing even "mentioned". And that is actually pretty clever. He lured her to the location where he needed her by getting his minions to hunt dragons, and then he emerged to fight. We're talking about Aegwynn, the Guardian of Tirisfal, she isn't dumb. I would imagine that if Sargeras appeared when he did, he wouldn't have allowed himself defeated. Who could have foreseen his plan?

Read this little gem:

Aegwynn was subsequently supplied with the power of the Tirisfalen, and began work immediately. One of Aegwynn's first challenges was the destruction of the demon Zmodlor, who had begun to possess children in a schoolhouse. Aegwynn rushed in and vanquished the demon before damage to the children could result. Erbag and Relfthra admonished her for her quick action - she rushed in without a thought to Zmodlor's grand scheme, and could have put the world at further risk. Aegwynn fired back that she couldn't allow children to suffer just because the Council favored a reactive solution to demons.

Yes, it takes a mastermind to lure a human who has poor experience in dealing with entities beyond run-of-the-mill demons. Especially an emotional, rash-acting human. Who was apparently arrogant enough to think she defeated a being that made the Dragonflights tremble. And couldn't realize that something was wrong, considering the last time Sargeras attempted to pay a visit to Azeroth he needed to enter through a portal fueled by Azeroth's source of arcane magic, yet here he just dropped by to say "hi!"

I am sorry, but how is this an indication he is a mastermind? He demonstrated that he is a master of magic with his sneaky possession and all that, but that's about it. The success of his sneakiness relied entirely on the concept that Aegwynn is an arrogant, powerblinded idiot who didn't even contemplate that there was more to defeating a dark titan than a couple of blasts in the face. Yes, she was brilliant in terms of understanding magic. But you can be a brilliant engineer or a scientist - does that automatically make you a xanatos roulette spinning master?

By the way, until something better is "mentioned," that is the capstone of his brilliance. You don't argue by stuff that he "might be capable of doing, but they just never said he can." Especially when we are talking about a being that went emo after being unable to comprehend Nathrezim flavored evil.

Bago!!!

2008-08-14, 06:58 PM

ROMALMHO!!!!
That would be sweet!

1. I am confuzzled now.... :(

2. Exactly.

3. If all deities draw their power from the number of followers, then they would become imensely weak in comparison. Most would probally be cowering in the corner, since he would just have destroyed the world with the snap of his fingers and drained all the magic in on the plane. If I was some god, I would be freaking out with the sudden loss of power in an instant, espicially if my neighboring gods were having the same problem. Besides, most of the Evil villians will be catagorized into 3 groups. Group 1, Kiss up to the guy who just destroyed the material plane. Group 2, GET BACK AT THE BASTARD WHO BLEW UP MY TEMPLES! Group 3, RUN! RUNAWAY!!!!

4. Hey! He could so blow up each plane on his own if he wanted to! Up till the whole 9th layer, maybe 8th layer (like the slug lord is gonna stop him....). Besides, I am only guessing on what would happen if he ever got on a world. I honestly don't know, and I am pretty sure no one knows, aside from a big GAME OVER! He could Make it rain hell fire for all I know, or maybe make everyone eat frosties till they pop. Besides, morphic mind control doesn't make it immune to being broken.... :smallannoyed: ;)

5. Yep. Also depends on the world I guess..... Witcher world definately has more Evil than good.

6. WELL I- Wait a second.... nothing?

7. I thought so.... I think the only real personal reason he fights demons is because they don't bow to him or something like that.

8. Wait, so its a real example they gave out or its just an example?

Konfeta: OBJECTION! It is still an intricate plan and sometimes the simpler plans work better. Besides, she wasn't a complete dolt. You don't become guardian by just being a master of magic. And magic usually involves a great deal of intellegiance. Infact, it requires it. She was headstrong, which was her flaw which Sargeras exploited. Something Asmodeus would have certainly done or appreciate.

Wait.... if one's power with magic is dictated by intellect, then this titan's power may well be immensly powerful!

Another thing to consider, he is a titan, and by virtue of being a titan, has a great deal of cosmic knowledge. Besides, going emo because you couldn't comprehend one's drive to doing evil does not mean your an idiot or anything along those lines.

chiasaur11

2008-08-14, 07:11 PM

3. If all deities draw their power from the number of followers, then they would become imensely weak in comparison. Most would probally be cowering in the corner, since he would just have destroyed the world with the snap of his fingers and drained all the magic in on the plane. If I was some god, I would be freaking out with the sudden loss of power in an instant, espicially if my neighboring gods were having the same problem. Besides, most of the Evil villians will be catagorized into 3 groups. Group 1, Kiss up to the guy who just destroyed the material plane. Group 2, GET BACK AT THE BASTARD WHO BLEW UP MY TEMPLES! Group 3, RUN! RUNAWAY!!!!

The Deities would interfere BEFORE he blew up more than one or two worlds. That was made kinda clear.

Callos_DeTerran

2008-08-14, 07:52 PM

1. I am confuzzled now.... :(

No worries, it's an entirely different campaign setting with a different mutliverse then the Great Wheel. I just don't have the know how or patience to accurately explain it.

3. If all deities draw their power from the number of followers, then they would become imensely weak in comparison. Most would probally be cowering in the corner, since he would just have destroyed the world with the snap of his fingers and drained all the magic in on the plane. If I was some god, I would be freaking out with the sudden loss of power in an instant, espicially if my neighboring gods were having the same problem. Besides, most of the Evil villians will be catagorized into 3 groups. Group 1, Kiss up to the guy who just destroyed the material plane. Group 2, GET BACK AT THE BASTARD WHO BLEW UP MY TEMPLES! Group 3, RUN! RUNAWAY!!!!

Er...my point was that most higher ranked deities can sense things pertaining to their portfolio ahead of time, sometimes months so. Even lesser ones can tell if a major event is about to shake up their domains before it happens. Thus it wouldn't be 'He snaps fingers, drains all magic and destroys the plane' it'd probably be more like 'He arrives and finds hundreds if not thousands of deitific power angry beings waiting in ambush. Que epic battle music and the battle for the Material Plane.' That was more so my point.

4. Hey! He could so blow up each plane on his own if he wanted to! Up till the whole 9th layer, maybe 8th layer (like the slug lord is gonna stop him....). Besides, I am only guessing on what would happen if he ever got on a world. I honestly don't know, and I am pretty sure no one knows, aside from a big GAME OVER! He could Make it rain hell fire for all I know, or maybe make everyone eat frosties till they pop. Besides, morphic mind control doesn't make it immune to being broken.... :smallannoyed: ;)

It may not be immune to being broken but it's also possible to fix it too. And dang fast with that level of control. My point here moreso being that after that first layer Sargeras may find the further levels like...I dunno...immune to magic, or with the wild magic trait so when he goes to break it he makes a horde of bunnies or something instead. Also, this is not a challenge of Sargeras's ability, but the second layer is heavily defended. In so that it's Lord has almost unparralelled defensive abilities while in his tower. It's part of his mindset, be defensive. Dispater may not STOP Sargeras but he'd definitely be a point where Sargeras would need to slow down his assault which could be fatal. Two, minor and unrelated, points though. The lord of the 8th is not the Slug Lord, it's the CREATOR of Hellfire, Mephistophles. In that same regard raining hell fire down on devils is vaguely...ill advised since they are the best equipped to survive it and return it. (Also a side-note, hellfire is said to be strong enough to burn anything and most Archdevils are at least proficient in it's use. Mephis and Asmodeus are masters of it.)

6. WELL I- Wait a second.... nothing?

...Apparently I forgot to type something there. I was going to say 1 billion may be too many for ONE world but again theres a good chance of infinite worlds out there and Asmodeus has conquered some for himself (Dicefreaks version).

7. I thought so.... I think the only real personal reason he fights demons is because they don't bow to him or something like that.

Depends on the version. WotC/Tot9H: Because they dispute his claim as the lord of all Evil. Because they are chaotic. And because it was his original purpose to kill demons.

Dicefreaks: Because he despises chaos. The only reason the Serpent broke from the Grand Trio is because they each disagreed how Order should be run. It never changed the fact he despised chaos in all it's forms and has an almost compulsive need to order it so he can subjugate it.

8. Wait, so its a real example they gave out or its just an example?

Oh no, that was a real example. It was on the lower end of the two examples given of how far ahead Asmodeus commonly plans ahead. I'm not saying that Sargeras is stupid or slow-witted...All I'm saying is when it comes to the fore-thinking, planning, scheming, and over all intellect Asmodeus has practically everyone looking like a dim-witted newborn. The devil plans more (and better) then Batman for crikey's sake!

DMfromTheAbyss

2008-08-14, 08:41 PM

I'll take Asmodeous hands down. Here's my reasoning.

It's a very big multiverse... things go by different rules but are basically defined relative to what they are. Odds favor the giant over the goatherder, the god over the hero.

Sargeras is the big bad from the World of warcraft... he's smashed hundreds of worlds (or thousands?) We don't really know how bada@@ he is but we do know that by the heroism of a few and the power of the gods they've managed to hide from/thwart him entering the plane of Azerath. He's got a gigundous horde of demons he's accrued by raiding the and recruiting/turning to evil the beings from the worlds he's destroyed.

He's also an elder Titan, feared by the very gods... so for scale

SARGARAS vs Titan.

Yeah he's a big bad worthy villain and conqueror of worlds.

Asmodeous is the primordial force of creation that organized the multiverse, writer of LAW (primordial laws of creation... he's the half author of the Rules of creation). He was basically half the organizing force of all creation (the evil half obviously). He's been around since the begginning of whatever you can legitimately call time/space... before him was ... well maybe the over-gods that made him. Originally he was supposed to create the universe (s) and that was that... he had to get all I'm alive I want to exist as a sentient being and actually manage to split from the raw force of creation... Doing this created the metaphysical concept of evil (he wanted to live at the expense of creation). The other half was the good half that calmed down and went on to become a god (of Couatl and some elder snakish people). She let her power slip till she was only a greater God and creator of races and beings throughout the multiverse. This would not do for big A however... no he wanted all his power back... he wanted more...

So he fed off the faithless... those who don't believe (not prayers per say but much the same) Those who despair, who have felt the evil in the universe (s) he created.

So he's looking to become more powerful so he can take on those overgods and such that made him... garnering forces and getting ready to strike. He basically has an infinite amount of power... but needs more power to take on the THINGS above him.

This is a case of a not quite a god vs a thing getting ready to rumble with over gods.

One has infinite bad@ss mojo (Sargaras) but lacks a bit in finesse. The other has a resume that includes designing the universe to dance to his evil plans, an infinite amount of power Growing at a more than infinite rate...(every bit of evil plus souls of the faithless plus general "prayers" in every world, on every plane of which are numbered infinite and infinite, and is trying to speed up the deal. The one is a competant evil power in his own right (Sargaras), that makes individual prime planes his target to consume for power. The other is a being already consuming all the petty evil souls in all the dimensions, who rather likes the way things are going... becouse he's winning... just a bit in the hearts and minds of every sentient being. Growing at an infinite x infinite x infinite rate, he's still struggling (theoretically over an infinite amount of time) to recoup the power he lost in his fall.

The fight would go like this...

Sargaras finds out about some guy called Asmodeus... decides to kick his tail, sends some agents to open the way... Trying to open a portal to the first of the hells he's surprised at the ease in which his plan succeeds. He enters and destroys the plane... then realizes to his horror that he's unable to leave. Meanwhile the real first plane of Hell is actually remade between clicks of the clock (don't want to interupt the other plans going on) while the plane he was in (yes the same plane) is also a small clear globe in Asmodues's hand. Not torturing or tormenting him Asmodeus just lets him vent for awhile (thousands of years in solitary?) building his rage to unspeakable levels in the not technically but technically the same dimension. Meanwhile the agents he'd sent are absorbed into the teeming Hells, given nice promotions at first and promised everything they could want. This slowly slowly makes them less happy as they feel they have less to do... Slowly over their careers they are made to doubt their selves... their loyalty and their faith... building to gradual pinacles of self loathing before most being consumed in Asmodeus's plots (you know like falling to heroes or other fiends).

After Sargaras has literally become a ball of hate rage and self inflicted loathing he is casually released into a plane where some powerful deity or hero is bringing hope to the people in a time of peace and good will. The Leaders name is Asmondeus the pure (or somesuch... enough to enrage the hardly thinking at this point Sargaras). Sargaras is then released into that plane... where he's convieniently met with some of his surviving horde, which out of years of internicine politics and plotting are now much more capable (though fewer in number). He continues his rage accross the planes, crushing gods and titans... until eventually he's brought down by some great hero God thing whatever which his own evil made more impatient by the imprisonment led him to face with a tad less forethought than he needed to win.

...and Asmodeus smiles as his scheduled power creep has expectedly gone up by a millionth of a percent... Putting him that much closer to getting back at the Universe he helped make.

To beat Asmodeus as I see him (and run him in my game) you really need someone pure of heart willing to resist evil. (you know like heroes) They can by various small actions, herioc quests and basically by resisting the whole temptation of evil... put off or even screw up big A's plans (slow down the power creep). Being a bad guy... fighting the concept of evil... only perpetuates it... at best a self destructive act for any evil overlord... if you succeed you become a good guy....

Does anyone think Sargaras is a good Guy?

No

Sorry then (though that would be a cool campaign idea... the redemption of an evil world destroying demon.. heheh)

Bago!!!

2008-08-14, 09:02 PM

Za?

I didn't know about that. How is it they can sense it happen? Is it a deific ability thing? And could it be possible that Sargeras might not give any hint because he's from a different universe? Just saying!
But I get your point. Some of the BLDs would enjoy it I think, and I think the Dreadlords would get alot of fun from this. :smallamused:

What about utter anilahation and total drainage of magic? Past that, what levels have immunage to magic and wild magic? I could see Immune, but Wild? I forgot about Disapator. Yeah, he would make it really tough, so it may stop there and he would have to withdraw and blow up some other plane or something. I know who is Lord of the 8th. I was saying that the Lord of the 7th wouldn't stop him. He's a slug!

I AM CONFUZZLED EVEN MORE SO! Wheres that wakishashi?

Still getting more confused....

GOOD GOD! I'am quaking in my boots. Alright, I hand it to Asmodeus the advantage of forethought and planning.

Asmodeous is the primordial force of creation that organized the multiverse, writer of LAW (primordial laws of creation... he's the half author of the Rules of creation). He was basically half the organizing force of all creation (the evil half obviously). He's been around since the begginning of whatever you can legitimately call time/space... before him was ... well maybe the over-gods that made him. Originally he was supposed to create the universe (s) and that was that... he had to get all I'm alive I want to exist as a sentient being and actually manage to split from the raw force of creation... Doing this created the metaphysical concept of evil (he wanted to live at the expense of creation). The other half was the good half that calmed down and went on to become a god (of Couatl and some elder snakish people). She let her power slip till she was only a greater God and creator of races and beings throughout the multiverse. This would not do for big A however... no he wanted all his power back... he wanted more...

Wait, he's the writer of law?

So he fed off the faithless... those who don't believe (not prayers per say but much the same) Those who despair, who have felt the evil in the universe (s) he created.

So he's looking to become more powerful so he can take on those overgods and such that made him... garnering forces and getting ready to strike. He basically has an infinite amount of power... but needs more power to take on the THINGS above him.

This is a case of a not quite a god vs a thing getting ready to rumble with over gods.

That makes no sense..... Is this all in a book or something? Could you please give me the source?

One has infinite bad@ss mojo (Sargaras) but lacks a bit in finesse. The other has a resume that includes designing the universe to dance to his evil plans, an infinite amount of power Growing at a more than infinite rate...(every bit of evil plus souls of the faithless plus general "prayers" in every world, on every plane of which are numbered infinite and infinite, and is trying to speed up the deal. The one is a competant evil power in his own right (Sargaras), that makes individual prime planes his target to consume for power. The other is a being already consuming all the petty evil souls in all the dimensions, who rather likes the way things are going... becouse he's winning... just a bit in the hearts and minds of every sentient being. Growing at an infinite x infinite x infinite rate, he's still struggling (theoretically over an infinite amount of time) to recoup the power he lost in his fall.

Finesse? He doesn't lack it. We just don't know how much he uses. And he has all the faithless souls? All the evil ones as well? I was under the impression that if a person dies, their soul belongs to their deity, and if they don't worship them they go wherever their alignment sends them, and it is those that Asmodeus gets, along with those that worship him. Am I wrong?

DMfromTheAbyss

2008-08-14, 09:59 PM

ok point by point. So far as references I'm going off the D&D books published.. well all of them with a bit of filling in the blanks... (like attributing why's... but then I'm a DM I have to think about them for my game which involves a cast of "beings" (total of 10-11 who can legitimately beat Asmodeus, 4 of whom are technically evil...sorta... anyway)

As to seeing it coming... yeah he's known about it.. he saw it in the rules... how the universe is organized... probably has to deal with it regularly... thus all the other vs Asmodeus threads).

Yeah all the planes are technically different universes... if your even vaugely interacting with his then yeah he's already Created yours and knows how it works... cept for some fuzziness round the concepts of good... which would not be relevant with Sargaras anyway)

As far as what levels have total immunity to magic... any of them he wants... he's literally killed god like beings (who have infinite morphic control over their layer of hell) by having the plane rip them apart and used the body as the matter to make the layer (Fiends of the Nine hells book for that factoid). He then gave the plane to his darling daughter...

As to being the writer of LAW (note big L.A.W.) he's described as being the leftover from the cosmic wave that created... well the whole shebang (or big bang including all the souls etc... this is why he is "wounded" and trying to recover.. he can remember that sort of power... compared to that what he has now is piddly)

And as for Sargaras lacking Finesse... he's described as a big demon thing that
just crushes everything before him, doesn't sound finessy to me. Also his information network and minions have repeatedly failed him (aka Azeroth is still there not crushed yet... it vexes him soooo!).

As for the souls of the faithless... Gods collect their worshippers... those who strongly follow an ideal or are just meh go to their alignment (and are sometimes subject to theft/filching by greedy gods and demons). Those who definitively believe in nothing (aethiests for example) or actively disbelieve in the gods go to Asmodeus. He also gets power from all devilkind... so if your evil and Lawful in the right proportion your also his indirectly. Remember this guy isn't happy with 11% (or whatever that other poster quoted) of everything power wise... he's stealing every percentage point he can trying to drag himself back up and make himself "whole" again (possibly impossible but he's doing a good job of trying anyway)

and the wakizashi is? If this is a reference to Sargeras killing himself then no Asmodeus could make the rules of the dimension that you do 1 point of damage max, and have DR1... so he couldn't even kill himself... and even if he did his power would go to guess who.

What makes Asmodeus so hard to beat is that you have to either out-think the multiverses first and most evil Lawyer who can bend reality on his hometurf at will in zero time to do ANYTHING several times over (even being infinitely powerful via morphic control of a plane didn't help that Hag Queen I think it was). Or simply be unimaginingly powerful... and that's usually not enough unless there's enough infinite power god power DM fiat things on your side. (having one or two infinitely powerful beings is apparently not enough).

Callos_DeTerran

2008-08-14, 11:00 PM

DMfromtheAbyss: Man, where the heck are you getting this stuff? O.o I consider myself an expert on things Asmodeus, having an avid interest in the devil and reading practically all I can get my hands on about him, and I've never even heard half of the stuff your talking about. Are you sure most of this stuff isn't your campaign specific?

I mean some of this strikes a chord but the rest of it...doesn't make much sense at all. I'm gonna have to go with Bajo!!! on this and ask if you can source some of that stuff.

Eldan

2008-08-15, 02:52 AM

I think I have read some of the stuff about him creating the multiverse. Some of it, on the other hand, sounds like a level too high.
Now, for morphic control and divine power: let's quote the rules here.

"Divinely Morphic: Specific unique beings (deities or similar great powers) have the ability to alter objects, creatures, and the landscape on planes with this trait... The deities may cause these areas to change instantly and dramatically, creating great kingdoms for themselves."

"Dead Magic: These planes have no magic at all. A plane with the dead magic trait functions in all respects like an antimagic field spell. Divination spells cannot detect subjects within a dead magic plane, nor can a spellcaster use teleport or another spell to move in or out. The only exception to the “no magic” rule is permanent planar portals, which still function normally."

"Portfolio Sense: Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event."

Godly Realm: Each deity of rank 1 or higher has a location that serves as a workplace, personal residence, audience chamber, and sometimes as a retreat or fortress. A deity is at its most powerful within its godly realm. A deity has at least modest control over the environment within its realm, controlling the temperature and minor elements of the environment. The radius of this control is a function of the deity’s rank and whether the realm is located on an Outer Plane or some other plane (including the Material Plane).Within this area, the deity can set any temperature that is normal for the plane where the realm is located (for the Material Plane, any temperature from -20ºF to 120ºF), and fill the area with scents and sounds as the deity sees fit.
Deities of rank 6 or higher can create the sounds of intelligible speech.
A deity of rank 6 or higher not only has control over the environment, but also controls links to the Astral Plane. Manipulating a realm’s astral links renders teleportation and similar effects useless within the realm. The deity can designate certain locales within the realm where astral links remain intact. Likewise, the deity can block off the realm from planar portals or designate locations where portals are possible. A deity of rank 11 or higher can also apply the enhanced magic or impeded magic trait to up to four groups of spells (schools, domains, or spells with the same descriptor). The enhanced magic trait enables a metamagic feat to be applied to a group of spells without requiring higher-level spell slots. Many deities apply the enhanced magic trait to their domain spells, making them maximized (as the Maximize Spell feat) within the boundaries of their realm. The impeded magic trait doesn’t affect the deity’s spells and spell-like abilities.
In addition, a deity of rank 11 or higher can erect buildings as desired and alter terrain within ten miles to become any terrain type found on the Material Plane. These buildings and alterations are manifestations of the deity’s control over the realm.
A greater deity (rank 16 or higher) also can perform any one of the following acts:
*Change or apply a gravity trait within the realm.

* Change or apply an elemental or energy trait within the realm.

* Change or apply a time trait within the realm.

*Apply the limited magic trait to a particular school, domain, or spell descriptor within the area, preventing such spells and spell-like abilities from functioning. The greater deity’s own spells and spell-like abilities are not limited by these restrictions.

This means Asmodeus can do all this to the nine hells, without even using magic. It's just his innate ability.

GoC

2008-08-15, 04:54 AM

Destroying the Material Plane is...like...the worst possible thing Sargeras could even try to do. Then it's not just a fight between Sargeras and Asmodeus anymore, it's a battle between Sargeras and the Celestial Hebohad, the Five Companions, the Demon Lords, the Arch-Devils, various pantheons, and any epic level characters laying about with nothing to do. Aside from that the Prime Material IS a limitless plane with arguably infinite worlds in it. A lot more then a few of which have completely fallen to Asmodeus. Again, this is a LOT more. Sargeras may fight dirty but it doesn't mean it's a good idea either.

The most dangerous of those are the epic adventurers as there are probably a few ascended Tippy's or Pun-Pun among them.

Most would probally be cowering in the corner, since he would just have destroyed the world with the snap of his fingers and drained all the magic in on the plane.
:smallconfused:
Somehow I doubt he can do that.

hamishspence

2008-08-15, 06:33 AM

Fiendish Codex 2 gives alternate backstory on Asmodeus as Fallen "angel" rather than co-creator of multiverse. And also accounts for Serpents Coil without having him be a thousands-mile long serpent (carved out by plummeting asmodeus, might require layer to be spinning at the time)

Callos_DeTerran

2008-08-15, 08:42 AM

The most dangerous of those are the epic adventurers as there are probably a few ascended Tippy's or Pun-Pun among them.

I don't consider Pun-Pun a threat when he relies upon there BEING a Forgotten Realms and being from it to function. :smalltongue: And at this point I'm more then certain that Sargeras and Asmodeus have magic that'd make a Tippy wizard sit down and cry. Or at least I know for a fact that Asmodeus does and the same tendency to use under-handed tricks as a Tippy wizard (except HE doesn't need to spend money doing it).

chiasaur11

2008-08-15, 09:47 AM

I don't consider Pun-Pun a threat when he relies upon there BEING a Forgotten Realms and being from it to function. :smalltongue: And at this point I'm more then certain that Sargeras and Asmodeus have magic that'd make a Tippy wizard sit down and cry. Or at least I know for a fact that Asmodeus does and the same tendency to use under-handed tricks as a Tippy wizard (except HE doesn't need to spend money doing it).

Well, technically, our small scaly pal depends on there having been a Forgotten Realms, rather than there being one (present tense). In an infinite multiverse, there probably is at least one Kobold just sitting quietly, possibly playing paddleball really well, who knows the true meaning of the word "Cheese". And being on his bad side? Bad idea.

Callos_DeTerran

2008-08-15, 10:38 AM

Well, technically, our small scaly pal depends on there having been a Forgotten Realms, rather than there being one (present tense). In an infinite multiverse, there probably is at least one Kobold just sitting quietly, possibly playing paddleball really well, who knows the true meaning of the word "Cheese". And being on his bad side? Bad idea.

Eh? From what I understand the little bastard needs to be from the Forgotten Realms to be considered a Scaley One (Or whatever the keyword is for that ability) and rise to ultimate power. And yes, if you hadn't guessed I DESPISE Pun-Pun.

chiasaur11

2008-08-15, 10:49 AM

Eh? From what I understand the little bastard needs to be from the Forgotten Realms to be considered a Scaley One (Or whatever the keyword is for that ability) and rise to ultimate power. And yes, if you hadn't guessed I DESPISE Pun-Pun.

He does. However, there's nothing saying has has to stay there, and he has fifty tickets to anywhere else he wants thanks to rampant cheese and manipulation.

therefore, the previous statement.

Callos_DeTerran

2008-08-15, 11:20 AM

He does. However, there's nothing saying has has to stay there, and he has fifty tickets to anywhere else he wants thanks to rampant cheese and manipulation.

therefore, the previous statement.

Well it's sorta hard to be from the Forgotten Realm if like...I dunno...it blew up a million years ago. :smalltongue:

chiasaur11

2008-08-15, 11:27 AM

Well it's sorta hard to be from the Forgotten Realm if like...I dunno...it blew up a million years ago. :smalltongue:

Invincible to everything but hitting yourself and immortal.

A winning combination.

Or, as we like to say in the business, the messed up part.

Oh rules chickanery in 3.5, is there anything you can't accomplish?

Querzis

2008-08-15, 11:54 AM

So we are apparently automatically expecting them to fight in the nine hell? I know Sargeras would have a big advantage in the Twisting Nether and it seems Asmodeus also have a big advantage in the nine hells so shoudnt we make them fight in the material plane or something? Well either way, for now lets say they are fighting in the nine hells for some reason.

I think I have read some of the stuff about him creating the multiverse. Some of it, on the other hand, sounds like a level too high.
Now, for morphic control and divine power: let's quote the rules here.

"Divinely Morphic: Specific unique beings (deities or similar great powers) have the ability to alter objects, creatures, and the landscape on planes with this trait... The deities may cause these areas to change instantly and dramatically, creating great kingdoms for themselves."

Well that sound pretty cool but otherwise is it really supposed to be helpfull in a fight? Its not like landscape affect Sargeras.

"Dead Magic: These planes have no magic at all. A plane with the dead magic trait functions in all respects like an antimagic field spell. Divination spells cannot detect subjects within a dead magic plane, nor can a spellcaster use teleport or another spell to move in or out. The only exception to the “no magic” rule is permanent planar portals, which still function normally."

Can Asmodeus still use his magic in those planes? Because if he cant, it sounds like a really bad idea. Sargeras is mainly a warrior so it doesnt really disadvantage him. When you are big enough to stab planets http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Sargeras.JPG you dont care that much if you have magic or not (I love that image, those are dragons flying around him by the way.)

"Portfolio Sense: Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event."

Now thats really interesting. Especially since asmodeus is really smart.

"Godly Realm: Each deity of rank 1 or higher has a location that serves as a workplace, personal residence, audience chamber, and sometimes as a retreat or fortress. A deity is at its most powerful within its godly realm. A deity has at least modest control over the environment within its realm, controlling the temperature and minor elements of the environment. The radius of this control is a function of the deity’s rank and whether the realm is located on an Outer Plane or some other plane (including the Material Plane).Within this area, the deity can set any temperature that is normal for the plane where the realm is located (for the Material Plane, any temperature from -20ºF to 120ºF), and fill the area with scents and sounds as the deity sees fit..

Nothing really important there.

"Deities of rank 6 or higher can create the sounds of intelligible speech.
A deity of rank 6 or higher not only has control over the environment, but also controls links to the Astral Plane. Manipulating a realm’s astral links renders teleportation and similar effects useless within the realm. The deity can designate certain locales within the realm where astral links remain intact. Likewise, the deity can block off the realm from planar portals or designate locations where portals are possible. A deity of rank 11 or higher can also apply the enhanced magic or impeded magic trait to up to four groups of spells (schools, domains, or spells with the same descriptor). The enhanced magic trait enables a metamagic feat to be applied to a group of spells without requiring higher-level spell slots. Many deities apply the enhanced magic trait to their domain spells, making them maximized (as the Maximize Spell feat) within the boundaries of their realm. The impeded magic trait doesn’t affect the deity’s spells and spell-like abilities.
In addition, a deity of rank 11 or higher can erect buildings as desired and alter terrain within ten miles to become any terrain type found on the Material Plane. These buildings and alterations are manifestations of the deity’s control over the realm.

The enhanced magic part could be a great way of enhancing his army, otherwise, none of this is really important against Sargeras.

"A greater deity (rank 16 or higher) also can perform any one of the following acts:
*Change or apply a gravity trait within the realm.

* Change or apply an elemental or energy trait within the realm.

* Change or apply a time trait within the realm.

*Apply the limited magic trait to a particular school, domain, or spell descriptor within the area, preventing such spells and spell-like abilities from functioning. The greater deity’s own spells and spell-like abilities are not limited by these restrictions.

Its too bad he can only do one of those things but I'm sure he could work out a trap or somthing with this. Hes smart enough for that.

"This means Asmodeus can do all this to the nine hells, without even using magic. It's just his innate ability.

Pretty cool...once again, I dont understand why we apparently assume they fight in the nine hells. I saw lots of vs thread before and everyone generally assume they are fighting in a place where none of them has an advantage.

Sargeras and Asmodeus are in front of each other on a random planet without any of their minions. Who win. I dont think anything else is really supposed to be important.

Anyway, you told me lots of things Asmodeus could do or did in hell but I still have no idea of about his strength on the material plane except that his blood do pit lord.

By the way, it amaze me how some people use wish here. Its a freaking level 9 spell lol, it cant destroy a freaking city and I have no idea what kind of DM would allow that. Look at the list of things a wish can do http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Wish. And its specifically said that : «You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)» Wish is mainly a spell I saw used outside of combat to give bonus to ability score or to create items. The best thing you can do with it in combat is to force someone to reroll.

chiasaur11

2008-08-15, 12:10 PM

By the way, it amaze me how some people use wish here. Its a freaking level 9 spell lol, it cant destroy a freaking city and I have no idea what kind of DM would allow that. Look at the list of things a wish can do http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Wish. And its specifically said that : «You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)» Wish is mainly a spell I saw used outside of combat to give bonus to ability score or to create items. The best thing you can do with it in combat is to force someone to reroll.

You think a level NINE spell destroying a mere town is unlikely? You need to see more charOp boards son. There's a special kind of madness that allows us wonders.

Querzis

2008-08-15, 12:48 PM

You think a level NINE spell destroying a mere town is unlikely? You need to see more charOp boards son. There's a special kind of madness that allows us wonders.

I said city not town you know. Maybe not a city as big as Dalaran full with mighty wizard but at least a 20 000 peoples city. I've gone to check again the 9 level spells and there is lots of good stuff but nothing to destroy city no. Hell, even in the epic spell I dont see anything that could destroy a city in one spell (though I have no doubt an epic spellcaster could destroy a city of 20 000 peoples). Anyway, I dunno why I just dont show you the damn video (its youtube quality but still):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3BxvHhz4XQ

So in case you havent read the other pages, some people were arguing this woudnt count as an epic spell.

Eldan

2008-08-15, 12:53 PM

Wish copies every spell of level 9 or below on the wizard list.
So, city destroying? where's the problem?

Innis Cabal

2008-08-15, 12:55 PM

Wish lets you do anything. It can -safely- duplicate a spell of 9th or lower. The rest is to wording. And as someone said earlier, if you think a Pit Fiend with a way above average human mind cant word it just right? Might as well give up all togather

Querzis

2008-08-15, 01:00 PM

Wish copies every spell of level 9 or below on the wizard list.
So, city destroying? where's the problem?

...do I really have to eplain the difference between duplicate any spell of 8th level or lower and duplicate all spells of 8th level and lower at the same time?

Come on I'm french, I shoudnt be doing the grammar lesson here.

Wish lets you do anything. It can -safely- duplicate a spell of 9th or lower. The rest is to wording. And as someone said earlier, if you think a Pit Fiend with a way above average human mind cant word it just right? Might as well give up all togather

I hate repeating myself but: «You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)» Who cares about wording? Were does it even say wording change anything? Who said your intelligence change anything? You can wish for the human race to best destroyed all you want and at best, a few humans you never heard about will be killed (thats partial fulfillment.) Just what the hell are you thinking anyway, that anyone with wish can wish for a god to die? At best its gonna tickles.

Eldan

2008-08-15, 01:14 PM

I didn't say all spells at the same time. (By the way, I'm swiss, so english is my *fourth* language. Even though my french is horrible and I shouldn't really count it. But it sounds more impressive.)
But there are some spells around, especially if you look at the gazillion splashbooks wizards is spewing out, that could destroy cities.

chiasaur11

2008-08-15, 01:22 PM

hamishspence

2008-08-15, 01:25 PM

Locate City Bomb is usual cheesy city killer (Locate city from Races of Destiny, a non-damaging spell, with metamagic added)

While Apocalypse from the Sky is also a little overpowered, areawise, Elder evils has a character with it who doesn't have much range. Maybe the range upgrade per level was a misprint and its fixed? Also appears to ignore the errata saying artifact is focus and not expended, by describing it as a material component.

Erupt from Serpent kingdoms does fixed rather than dice damage, lots of it, area. Range 0 and no exemption for player, so you do need to be immune to avoid damage.

Epic spells can also be cheesed out.

Innis Cabal

2008-08-15, 01:29 PM

...do I really have to eplain the difference between duplicate any spell of 8th level or lower and duplicate all spells of 8th level and lower at the same time?

Come on I'm french, I shoudnt be doing the grammar lesson here.

I hate repeating myself but: «You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)» Who cares about wording? Were does it even say wording change anything? Who said your intelligence change anything? You can wish for the human race to best destroyed all you want and at best, a few humans you never heard about will be killed (thats partial fulfillment.) Just what the hell are you thinking anyway, that anyone with wish can wish for a god to die? At best its gonna tickles.

You clearly don't get how the spell works. It can be dangerous. But if you make it so nothing can go wrong in the wording, nothing will go wrong. Your expecting the spell to operate like a D&D spell, not like it does in the fluff. Wish is an amazing and powerful spell, it always has been.

hamishspence

2008-08-15, 01:41 PM

I've got 2nd ed book and non-advanced D&D Companion set (with wish for level 36 magic users and clerics). Dispute argument that was always awesome. It was very clear that "greedy" wishes were pretty much guaranteed to be twisted. and mcuch of what's available in 3.5 was not available then.

freerangetroll

2008-08-15, 02:41 PM

You clearly don't get how the spell works. It can be dangerous. But if you make it so nothing can go wrong in the wording, nothing will go wrong. Your expecting the spell to operate like a D&D spell, not like it does in the fluff. Wish is an amazing and powerful spell, it always has been.

I think you may be the one who doesn't get how the spell works. There is a reason that in the fluff and the campaign settings nobody has used wish (successfully) to kill the big bad, a god, wipe out a race, etc. Mostly because if you leave even one loophole it won't work as intended. Also even if it gets the desired result (lets say killing everyone in a specific city, it will 9 times out of ten twist on you. The city is raised by its patron deity who just happens to be in the area in an odd coincidence. The person that was your only hope of winning a war you are involved in was in the city at the time. I can go on and on.

Wish is not an I win button. It is an extremely flexible spell that can be put to good use to get out of sticky situations. Otherwise every caster with access to the spell would have conquered the world or scoured it of all evil.

hamishspence

2008-08-15, 02:43 PM

Nver mind loophole, from Old D&D onward the spell itself has had unspecified limits: it simply cannot do things of infinite power.

freerangetroll

2008-08-15, 02:51 PM

Nver mind loophole, from Old D&D onward the spell itself has had unspecified limits: it simply cannot do things of infinite power.

Oh, you can wish for anything. It just won't ever come out exactly as you intend it. I suppose that you could spend decades if not centuries constructing the perfectly worded wish and there might be a small chance that it doesn't twist on you. It wouldn't be something even a demon or devil would be able to come up with on the fly and have work as intended.

hamishspence

2008-08-15, 02:59 PM

My view was, regardless of how perfectly worded it is, it shouldn't work properly if the power level is too high. No matter what, wish should not remove a deity or similar entity from existance.

Sorry, Master Set, not Companion. It said "if used to harm another creature, it gets a save, if successful, both victim and caster take half the ill effects, caster can save to avoid at -4 penalty."

2nd ed PHB said "wishing another creature dead would be grossly unfair, Dm could choose to advance character in time to point where creature would be dead naturally, effectively taking them out of the campaign"

3rd ed also had unspecified limits.

freerangetroll

2008-08-15, 03:09 PM

Yup, that is Wish in a nutshell. The more you want out of it the less likely it is to happen.

As to the actual argument here. Sarg and the big A are pretty evenly matched from a pure power perspective.

Big A wins if he can keep Sarg out of the hells, since that is basically the limiting principle on Sarg's power. He just can't barge in somewhere (kind of like thresholds of houses and vampires) he has to be invited in so to speak. Now before the pro Big A guys go, "well we win because Big A would never allow it", Sarg does not need to be invited in by the "god" of the planes. He just needs the invite from someone with enough power to make the bridge for him. Any of the other lords would be able to do it, as well as some of the more powerful lieutenant demons. Basically Sarg would have to find one who would believe his lies and he can get access.

If Sarg gains entrance, well then all hell breaks loose. He has the same abilities to affect his immediate environment as DnD deities do to control there own home planes. So that would effectively be a stalemate. Then it comes down to countless Burning Legions vs countless planar natives. Stalemate there too.

So, in the event that Sarg gains access to the hells then he and Big A are going to have to go toe to toe. Not sure honestly who would win that one.

Innis Cabal

2008-08-15, 04:38 PM

I think you may be the one who doesn't get how the spell works. There is a reason that in the fluff and the campaign settings nobody has used wish (successfully) to kill the big bad, a god, wipe out a race, etc. Mostly because if you leave even one loophole it won't work as intended. Also even if it gets the desired result (lets say killing everyone in a specific city, it will 9 times out of ten twist on you. The city is raised by its patron deity who just happens to be in the area in an odd coincidence. The person that was your only hope of winning a war you are involved in was in the city at the time. I can go on and on.

Wish is not an I win button. It is an extremely flexible spell that can be put to good use to get out of sticky situations. Otherwise every caster with access to the spell would have conquered the world or scoured it of all evil.

We arnt talking about killing a god/whole race/world. We're talking about a city. Not even close to the same scale. And yes i do know how wish works. But Pit Fiends are smarter then us. They are the masters of loop holes. They could blow up a city, which is what the argument was about.

And Sag wouldnt have the ability to shape the hells. He is a demon, not a devil. If he were in the abyss that'd be fine, but you need to -take- a plane before you alter it. And he'd need to get it from Big A.

hamishspence

2008-08-15, 04:42 PM

if it can be done by spell of appropiate level, or asked for in an indrect manner, maybe. saying: "I wish for a Tsunami to strike the city Now" might seem less abusive than "I wish for the whole city and everything in it to be permanently erased from existance"

konfeta

2008-08-15, 04:45 PM

I said city not town you know. Maybe not a city as big as Dalaran full with mighty wizard but at least a 20 000 peoples city. I've gone to check again the 9 level spells and there is lots of good stuff but nothing to destroy city no. Hell, even in the epic spell I dont see anything that could destroy a city in one spell (though I have no doubt an epic spellcaster could destroy a city of 20 000 peoples). Anyway, I dunno why I just dont show you the damn video (its youtube quality but still):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3BxvHhz4XQ

So in case you havent read the other pages, some people were arguing this woudnt count as an epic spell.

Just a little thing about that video, it's not a "destroy city" spell. Archimonde never does anything of the like, later on. If you were to watch these scene with subtitles in-game (it provides a translation, paraphrasing "Now be destroyed with the very flame, which in your arrogance, you sought to control"), he is essentially turning the city's magic against itself. Think "dispel/manaburn/corrupt," whatever. Certain demonic magics revolve around consuming or destroying their target's magical ability. This is the same, only on a city scale.

Doesn't discount the epicness of that pwn, but just a little thing that bugs me.

hamishspence

2008-08-15, 04:50 PM

In D&D terms, would city have a Mythal, and the effect be a "corrupt mythal" one? In realms, corrupting mythals is epicly difficult.

Bago!!!

2008-08-15, 06:26 PM

Wish: No so great. Its a nice spell, but if you word in one language, then the magic may very well twist the wording in another language. Word it however you will, wish is not that powerful. If it was, then mind flayers would rule the world! Or beholders.... Maybe Necromancers...

Anyway, wish doesn't say it needs a specific wording to reduce the bite in the ass. So tell me, where is the wish that requires the special wording?

But yeah, even a Tsunami would be hard to pull. Tsunami's have epicness all over them! Did you know, the moment you see the Tsunami over the horizen, your dead? It moves that fast.

Destroy City Thing Archi" Wait, THATS RIGHT! DEMONS CAN SO TURN MAGIC AGAINST THE OTHER DEMONS!

Anyway, you don't know if thats a spell or if thats merely Archi using the magic against the mages. It could be both, it could be niether. He could be just saying that and use the magic which draws upon the same source (the Twisting Nether). Whatever he says doesn't have to be literal.

I still think Sargeras would win in a 1 on 1. On Asmodeus' playing field though, that would be just plain hard. He would so need help with his buds.

As for Asmodeus on Sargeras' turf, not good! There is no one who knows how to use the twisting nether better than the demons.

Hey! What is Sargeras' Divine Rank? :smallsmile:

The best way to beat Pun Pun is to put him against the DM who would never allow him to exsist.

Innis Cabal

2008-08-15, 06:36 PM

Gus your logic with wish is flawed. "If one race uses wish then etc etc" but thats not exactly how it works. If Race A uses wish, race b will use it to. And then the world ends for everyone. Wish is a good spell, it dosnt matter what language you speak it in, magic dosnt work like that, there is a unversal language. Its a powerful spell. See that XP cost? It actully used to -age- you, now they took that out which is silly, but thats not the point. Stop trying to turn wish into a weakness, its not. Pit Fiends only get one a year. All we said is yes that -could- blow up a city. Not they can blow it up and keep going like it was nothing.

Bago!!!

2008-08-15, 06:39 PM

Ah yes, the whole age thing. That was why everyone was an elf, right? Cause it always aged you the same amount, no matter your race?

Innis, where is your interpitation of your wish? It doesn't say that how you phrase the wish has any effect on the chance of the backlash?

Innis Cabal

2008-08-15, 06:41 PM

Thats been how its worked for DMs since i played second ed. I remember comming to the table with the caster and spending 5 minutes going through their wishs. Most were so iron tight you could sail in them.

Bago!!!

2008-08-15, 06:46 PM

But thats just a flavor thing that could vary with DMs, could it not? Not a rule of thumb?

Innis Cabal

2008-08-15, 06:47 PM

Its pretty much DM fait. Since none of us are DMing the battle then its really hardly fair to use one rule over another. Even in the standard power list, it could destroy the city, which again, is the point of using wish in this argument

Bago!!!

2008-08-15, 06:53 PM

But the standard power list could have incomprehensible or unpredictable effects. Like, the city could be destroyed and remade in an instant! Or the City would be destroyed, along with all your friends and family (who were teleported for some odd ball reason) and yourself. By standard power, you could very well destroy the city, but at what cost? Maybe the wish drew upon Asmodeus' power in the most power consuming fashion!

They would probally just use wish for its safe effects. I don't think Asmodeus would let his minions gamble so lightly.

DMfromTheAbyss

2008-08-15, 07:21 PM

Ok so far as the wishes go... hate to agree with the anti Asmodeous group but it can copy any spell of 8th level and lower... used properly it can be amazing, but other 9th level spells are more powerful from a direct comparison.

So we have a bunch of different Asmodueses ... ranging from the 99hp wizard from the Monster Manual 1 (1st ed) to the Uber god Serpent part-creator of the Universe. If anything we have too "damned" many of him. Against the piddly little 1st ed version I'd have to take Sargaras... then again as part of canon to the best of my knoledge Asmodeus has died repeatedly to no real effect on him... so it's a moot point unless we're talking about the real one unless we're going to maybe pit the little avatar version vs a possessed minion or something... But I thought the idea was to go mano a mano with the big guys.

If we had stats of any kind on Asmodues we couldn't trust them (there's just be a bigger version from another book next), and we have no stats on Sargaras becouse Sargaras hasn't actually appeared in WOW directly. We know he's tougher than his minions, and some of them are real tough.

So If we're having this fight on neutral ground I propose the following might happen.

Big Titan ring announcer: ARE we Ready To Rumble?!?

In this corner weighing in at 560lbs at 12 feet tall we have the Lord of the Nine Prince of Hell Asmodues!
(hey why'd he show up in his smallest weakest of avatar forms?)

In This corner we have Sargaras destroyer of worlds!!!
(hey where's Sargaras?? He knows he's supposed to show up right??)

After an awkward pause the announcer reluctantly announces Big A Winner, why you ask... cause at least A has actually shown up, something Sargaras has yet to do (in game)...

And of course nothing could have happened to his invite, or his ability to portal into this neutral dimension. You know like the prince of Hell would cheat or anything...

So lose by brute force, wiles, or attendance... Every way I think it through Sargaras still loses.

Bago!!!

2008-08-15, 07:23 PM

Objection!

DMfromTheAbyss

2008-08-15, 07:25 PM

Objection Overruled... Apparently Big A already bribed the judge...

Heheheh

But seriously has Sargaras got any real stats or scale or... appearances besides theme art. If you can give me any info I'd actually like to see it.

Bago!!!

2008-08-15, 07:34 PM

There is no judge! Theres only 2 sides who have stubborn lawyers!

Asmodeus does not exist!

There is two pictures.....

http://images.wikia.com/wowwiki/images/c/c6/Aegwyn_vs_Sargeras.JPG

http://images.wikia.com/wowwiki/images/1/1c/Sargeras.JPG

Innis Cabal

2008-08-15, 07:37 PM

Whats the caster doing....if this guy is so ultra powerful. Clearly he is either insane or thinks he can accomplish something, and if he thinks he can...there should be a reason. Bad use of picture.

Bago!!!

2008-08-15, 07:40 PM

The picture is the Avatar of Sargeras against the one who defeated him. Course, he let himself be blown into bits.

DMfromTheAbyss

2008-08-15, 07:46 PM

Yeah just read everything online I could find on Sargaras.

He's lost everytime he invaded. Got himself killed to possess a guy... who later gets killed by a hero. (to horribly paraphrase)
Then there's a bit on tactics using D&D type material that makes him sound like a cheasy end boss for throne of Baal.

He's really tough but not nearly as bada@@ as he's been spoken of here. Think normal campaign big bad.

Not very impressed myself

After further research I'm actually less impressed than I thought I should be.

Yeah big A's lesser avatars are a good fight with anything this guy has... that plus being a lot smarter...

Sorry not even a cool fight anymore.

Bago!!!

2008-08-15, 07:54 PM

Innis Cabal

2008-08-15, 08:09 PM

Bago!!!

2008-08-15, 08:25 PM

Countless of heros huh? How about any effective ones?

Maybe the gods could stop him, if they can get past the minions who turn their own power and magic against them.

And whats the highest divine rank available?

Innis Cabal

2008-08-15, 08:54 PM

DR can exceed 21, those are the over gods. Not just people that run worlds. Gods that blink and make material planes. The power scales are different. As for the heros? Enough that are keeping the powers of every external source out of the Material plane with minor help from the gods

freerangetroll

2008-08-15, 08:55 PM

Like I said, I really don't know who would win this.

As far as trying to actually stat out or give a realistic idea of what Sarg's power level is, I'll have to use WoW game mechanics which horribly suck for this sort of thing. But, I will give it my best try.

For the sake of argument lets assume that a level 70 WoW pc that is actually taking part in these fights is the equal of a level 30-40 DnD PC. It takes 25 of those to kill demons that aren't even his lieutenants (not going to get into trash since thats a pretty wonky subject in the first place). Some of these "lesser" demons will kill something just by being in close proximity to it. Some of them hit so hard physically that they will take out a geared to the teeth lvl 70 warrior in 1-2 blows. Others get more powerful as things die around them (one demon boss literally gains offensive power and health for every pc that is facing him dies in terms of game mechanics his power in a battle is exponentially limitless.

Now seeing as it takes 25 of these characters to kill one of these lesser demons. I believe that much smaller parties of maxish level DnD PCs have killed gods in straight up fights (going purely by mechanics)

Now remember, these are demons that Sarg has beaten before he even came into his full power. The greatest of them are compared as fleas next to his might. I know this isn't a stating, but it is the closest thing to compare the two settings since Sarg has never made (visibly) an appearance in anything but avatar form.

All this will probably be disregarded, but its the closest I can come to approximating the two settings and giving a partial glimpse at Sarg's power.

As to saying that Sarg would have to take Big A's dominion of the planes away to alter them. No he wouldn't, that is a DnD mechanic and not something that Sarg should be bound by. That would be like saying the big A can't bleed demons because that doesn't happen in wow.

Bago!!!

2008-08-15, 09:03 PM

What is Asmodeus' DR?

Free, your nuts to map something like that! AWESOME!!

arguskos

2008-08-15, 09:07 PM

My 2cp:

Sargeras is represented as a destroyer of worlds, someone with unfathomable power.

Asmodeus is represented as someone who controls worlds, manipulates populations, and generally is a "power behind the throne" sorta guy.

It's a fight between the "Destroy everything!" brand of Evil and the "Control everything!" brand.

In a straight-up, no tricks, just beatings, fight, Sargeras is probably gonna wipe the floor with ol' Asmodeus. However, since Big A's power lies in making it anything BUT a straight fight, Sargeras will show up looking for a fight, but Asmodeus has already twisted the rules so he has the advantage.

tl;dr: Mono-a-mono, Sargeras wins. Anything else, Asmodeus wins.

-argus

Innis Cabal

2008-08-15, 09:11 PM

He isnt a god. He has no DR

Bago!!!

2008-08-15, 09:12 PM

Then he can't hurt Sargeras in any way, if I am getting the divine rank thing right.... If sargeras has one (he probally does).

Swok

2008-08-15, 09:14 PM

For the sake of argument lets assume that a level 70 WoW pc that is actually taking part in these fights is the equal of a level 30-40 DnD PC.

Level 70 WoW characters are so far from being epic level it's laughable.

Epic Spellcasting can make galaxies. You can be like the titans at level 21 in D&D.

Bago!!!

2008-08-15, 09:15 PM

No you can't. You can make planes, but not galaxies.

freerangetroll

2008-08-15, 09:17 PM

Level 70 WoW characters are so far from being epic level it's laughable.

Epic Spellcasting can make galaxies. You can be like the titans at level 21 in D&D.

False. DnD is cheese, it isn't that much cheese.

Steven the Lich

2008-08-15, 09:18 PM

You keep saying the whole "enters material plane=death" even though there are countless heros that would be there to stop him, plus every good god, and probably some of the lawful evil ones. He would have a hard time flicking the metaphysical switch and winning. Plus this isnt a battle in the material so that power is more or less useless. Only one guy put up a more decent fight against the true form of Sargeras (Broxigar ftw), and even then, he was defeated without causing much more than a small injury to Sargeras' leg. And Broxigar killed several thousand demons before and was mocking them to bring on another challenge... Beyond even an epic adventurer in D&D. None actually defeated him in his true form, none.
By the way... Brox fought on the demon's world, not his own. Sargeras wasn't about to destroy his base of operations just to crush this guy. On Azeroth... Not a problem. :smallamused:
And yes, World + Sargeras = Armageddon. It is said so by Krasus, who is the consort of the Red Dragon Aspect, and doubtlessly is extremely wise (Can't imagine Alexstrasza dating a complete dolt). Cite one world that survived after he put his foot on it.
Also, in Dragonlance, didn't the gods themselves get overthrown by a mortal (Time traveling and very powerful one, but still...)? I think Sargeras can manage.

Whats the caster doing....if this guy is so ultra powerful. Clearly he is either insane or thinks he can accomplish something, and if he thinks he can...there should be a reason. Clearly, you overlook everything we say. That caster is Aegwynn, who is the guardian of Tirisfal. You didn't even guess the right gender.
2nd, You don't just do nothing when a 10 story demon lands in front of you after falling from a rift... You either...
A: Be the heroic main character and defeat it. Thats what Link always does.
Or B: RUN AWAY! That guy is on FIRE! Not a good sign!

Objection Overruled... Apparently Big A already bribed the judge...

There is no judge! Theres only 2 sides who have stubborn lawyers! Funny thing, there was actually a judge... He was actually bribed... He was actually torn in two by Sargeras, has him sewn back together, tore him in half again, killed him, then got a Dread Lord to raise the judge as a undead so he could repeat the entire cycle, and then tossed the remains into the Twisting Nether.
Sadistic evil dark titan life is complicated.

Innis Cabal

2008-08-15, 09:27 PM

Big A has Virtual Divine Rank, if we're using a mix. Im not sure, havent been over to Dicefreaks in a while.

Lord_Asmodeus

2008-08-15, 09:55 PM

Has anyone countered the "Sargeras is the Prime evil of Warcraftverse" point yet? Because thats not true at all.

Swok

2008-08-15, 10:19 PM

False. DnD is cheese, it isn't that much cheese.

You can deny it all you want. Epic spellcasting really is that stupid powerful.

Lord_Asmodeus

2008-08-15, 10:21 PM

You can deny it all you want. Epic spellcasting really is that stupid powerful.

I really hope 4e eliminates Epic Spellcasting the way it works in 3.5. I mean, I REALLY hate it, its just stupid on an insane level. When wizards are more powerful than the gods, to the point where they don't even care about divinity because its so below them... there's a problem.

Swok

2008-08-15, 10:25 PM

I really hope 4e eliminates Epic Spellcasting the way it works in 3.5. I mean, I REALLY hate it, its just stupid on an insane level. When wizards are more powerful than the gods, to the point where they don't even care about divinity because its so below them... there's a problem.

Well, so far there is no epic spellcasting. That's a pretty big improvement right there. I mean, there's the epic tier, but that more refers to storytelling (as in this is the part where opposing big demon plots and saving the world comes more and more into play).

Lord_Asmodeus

2008-08-15, 10:27 PM

Well, so far there is no epic spellcasting. That's a pretty big improvement right there. I mean, there's the epic tier, but that more refers to storytelling (as in this is the part where opposing big demon plots and saving the world comes more and more into play).

That actually sounds nice. Because I mean seriously, if you want to throw around planets and make universes... D&D shouldn't be the universe you look to, no offense to epic fans out there, thats just IMO.

Anyway, has anybody countered the point made that Sargeras was the Prime Evil of the Warcraftverse? Because thats blatantly untrue.

Swok

2008-08-15, 10:29 PM

That actually sounds nice. Because I mean seriously, if you want to throw around planets and make universes... D&D shouldn't be the universe you look to, no offense to epic fans out there, thats just IMO.

Anyway, has anybody countered the point made that Sargeras was the Prime Evil of the Warcraftverse? Because thats blatantly untrue.

It is quite the improvement, but let's not clutter the thread with that bit of off topicness.

On the whole Prime Evil point...wouldn't that go to the Old Gods? I'm fairly certain they predate or at least chronologically match the Titans in the fluff.

Lord_Asmodeus

2008-08-15, 10:33 PM

Indeed, The Old Gods are currently the oldest known entities in the universe. At the very least, they were there long before the Titans found Azeroth, and might be older than the Titans themselves. The Old Gods dwelled on Azeroth with their servents, the Elementals. There are four main old gods, but there are more lesser ones. They were so powerful, it took the efforts of all the titans to defeat them, and even then they just made it. Hell they couldn't even KILL them, they had to lock them away. Also, they're so evil, when they were talking about Sargeras trying to come through during the first war, they were described as beings of such evil, they made Sargeras pale in comparison. They even said they would have preferred that Sargeras himself come through in all his glory, than the Old Gods be released from their prison. Scary Stuff.

Edit: This was a tad offtopic. Sorry.

Swok

2008-08-15, 10:38 PM

Lord_Asmodeus

2008-08-15, 10:41 PM

Well, The Titans are probably off in some corner of the universe, and don't even know what Sargeras is up too, and really the Old Ones, despite their terrifying power are still locked up, of course that didn't stop them from corrupting and slowly driving mad, Neltharion, the Earth Warder (AKA Deathwing) Father of the Black Dragonflight. And again, he HAS destroyed thousands of worlds, and his presence on Azeroth would mean its destruction. Of course, it would likely free the Old Ones aswell and thats Very Very Bad.

Callos_DeTerran

2008-08-15, 11:43 PM

Wait...then where is the "Sargeras is the biggest baddest dude in Warcraft fluff" even coming from, then?

I mean, even with his army of demons (which to be honest, are not that impressive except for their numbers, except for the various uniques, and it's not like Asmodeus has a shortage of unique Devils) he's still mainly a big corrupt face smasher. In a battle between Bruisers and Plotters, the Plotters almost always win. We also can't forget that Asmodeus is no slouch in combat, so that largest advantage for Big S is mitigated some.

Frankly, I can't see how Sargeras could win, as awesome as he is.

Important part in bold. One SHOULD remember that Asmodeus always has at least one reset button on any battle (depending on the version he can have up to three that may/may not activate without him needing to activate them).

As for Asmodeus's divine rank, he technically has none. He's not a deity, he's an archdevil. However even the somewhat low-powered WotC version has 'virtual' divine ranks while he is in hell. Hence the idea Sarg will likely fight Asmodeus in Baator is likely since...well Asmodeus doesn't leave there often because that's where he has the greatest advantage. And (on the higher end) Asmodeus doesn't have 'virtual' divine ranks, he has a large number of cosmic ranks which, from my understanding, are much better. And he has a buttload of'em too (Hence the CR 99ish).

Some basic assumptions I think everyone can agree on though...

Sargeras is probably better at melee combat and physical prowess being a warrior Titan. (How much may be debatable but he IS better at it).

Asmodeus is better at magical combat and fore-planning (Again, how much is debatable but it's also fairly agreeable that it's probably by a good deal in the first place).

Both would have a significant advantage in the armies and mano e mano battles on their home turf and the amount of influence either can exert on the Material plan is...unknown seeing how one can't predict how other entities besides the two combatants might interfere...or rather WE can't tell.

Bago!!!

2008-08-16, 12:51 AM

It could go either way.

Sargeras= Prime Evil? There are none more evil than him now. His drive is total oblivion. And just because he was corrupted or something or other has nothing to do with being prime evil or not. Some of Asmodeus' myths revolve around him turning evil. Prime evil is the biggest bad guy.

Old Gods= The Old gods may or may not predate the Titans, but they are certainly not the prime evils because they have never left the world of Azeroth. They were found on Azeroth by the Titans, and were locked into its center. And no, it didn't take all the efforts of the Titans. It was a tough fight, but they didn't need all of their numbers.

Of course it would be bad. But I feel that Sargeras wouldn't be too fazed by it. He would offer them power and the chance to get back at the titans, or they would be wiped out.

VDR= Alright, whats A's VDR?

Demons= The demons are pretty awesome, they're talents are greatly varied, and they all deal damage that is composed of the twisting nether. Most have anti-spell caster abilities, which makes it difficult for some devils. They can be over powered by doom guards (The pitfiends that is). Plus, many of these demons are really, REALLY smart and make excellent plotters.

Swok

2008-08-16, 01:26 AM

Weren't the Old Gods lords of the elemental plane? Which isn't necessarily unique to Azeroth?

Also. Total oblivion does not make someone the most evil thing in existence. To be quite blunt? Just total oblivion is childish in comparison to the evils that would prefer twisting and ruling. If you destroy all...you destroy yourself. If you crush everything and turn it into a perversion of what it once was? You keep existing...crushing all hope for all time. At that point? I'd take the cessation of existence as the better end result.

Bago!!!

2008-08-16, 01:32 AM

The Elemental plane was where all the elemental servants went after the Old gods were banished.

Debatable. Its not the most twisted thing, but it certainly is evil. Besides, he'll remake everything after he's done.

Swok

2008-08-16, 01:36 AM

Provided that he actually has the power to do that, considering the Titans as a collective could apparently only prod life into existence on favorable worlds.

Bago!!!

2008-08-16, 01:51 AM

If he collects all the magic from all the worlds he's destroyed, then most likely yes.

freerangetroll

2008-08-16, 02:09 AM

The Old Ones are Azerothan locals. It didn't take all of the Titans to imprison them, although it was a tough fight. So I would hardly consider them the big bads.

I think the pro-DnD people in this thread are ignoring something fairly important here. If Sargeras himself gets to a world it ends. Period. Done and done. I think you get the point. The setting limits him doing this however by requiring that a native of the world invites him in. IE his corruption of the elven nobility or the orcs. He and the Legion have slaughtered countless worlds and each time he does so he gets more powerful.

Swok

2008-08-16, 02:22 AM

All the worlds he has come to may have ended...this does not mean he ends a world by his mere presence. This means he has ended worlds he has come to. Which might even be poetic, what with having a gigantic horde of demons to back him up. I would assume destroying things is fairly easy with help. Also, being barricaded from somewhere without being explicitly invited is a decent hurdle to overcome.

freerangetroll

2008-08-16, 02:27 AM

Swok

2008-08-16, 02:34 AM

I am kind of curious now. If Sargeras is that powerful, why does he need the Burning Legion? It seems he'd be better served just by doing the "whisper sweet nothings" routine and then walking in and ending everything.

Actually, I'm now curious why he doesn't do exactly that if he is so personally powerful.

Also...where did the source of Alexstrasa/powerful dragon of the Red Dragonflight (I at least think you're referencing Alexstrasa) saying this? As I don't remember if from any of my sojourns into Warcraft fluff.

freerangetroll

2008-08-16, 02:42 AM

Well since the lore is built around a video game I'm sure players that got instakilled wouldn't find it too engrossing, so they have to have something to fight.

As far as a real reason for it? I'll give that a shot. Sargeras is a Titan, the most powerful titan, but he is outnumbered by the other Titans. So I guess the first reason would be that if it ever came to him having to battler multiple of his former brethren he would have some fodder to throw at one or two and keep them occupied while he took out a third. The other titans aren't on his level of power and could I assume at least be preoccupied by the almost unending supplies of Legion troops he could throw at them.

Also, as stated earlier, Sargeras isn't all about brute force. He has Lieutenants who are not limited in where they can go. Archimonde, Varimathras, etc. They act as his forward scouts so to speak and attempt to either A.) get Sarg himself through, or B.) Set up a staging point from which the lesser demons can invade. Now why some demons can enter a world at will and others can't... I have no clue. But seeing as Sargeras is not stupid, if his Legions can destroy the world for him (and in the process I'm assuming allowing him to gain access without trickery) then why not let them do it?

Edit: As far as the dragon that said it. That would be her consort who is named earlier in the thread. I believe it was either in one of the fluff books, or in the actual pen and paper core rules. I can't remember right off the top of my head so I will have to look it up.

As an interesting note, Sarg is apparently immune to Fire based and Fel based magics (WoW wiki source). How would that impact the beings he would be engaging in Big A's domain. Can fel equal demonic or devilish since that would be the closest DnD equivalent.

Callos_DeTerran

2008-08-16, 02:44 AM

Its already been referenced that if every last one of his minions entered Azeroth then the world still had a chance no matter how small. The same being (elder red dragon and consort of the wing) then said that if Sargeras was to enter Azeroth by himself then the world was screwed.

This does not mean an automatic victory if Sargeras was to ever enter unto a planet, this means that he has more personal power then the Legion combined and that's about it. To say otherwise can only be speculation.

I also pointed out in an earlier post how he could gain access to the planes. Basically he whispers sweet nothings in the ears of powerful beings that inhabit said plane and once one of them gives him the go ahead (this takes some fairly massive power, but seeing as how the planes demons are being represented in this thread there has to be a handful that could do it) he waltzes in.

This would require, in Hell at least, one of the Archdevils or one of the Dark Eight. One set has absolute loyalty to Asmodeus (and are monitored by him) and the other are of impressive powers themselves and possess large egos that have little room for letting another powerful being threaten their reigns in hell (and are even MORE closely watched by Asmodeus for plots, if some super-being begins to whisper to one of them, they'd have to be damn careful not to be caught and STILL be convincing enough to sway an arch-devil, no easy feat)

freerangetroll

2008-08-16, 02:50 AM

This does not mean an automatic victory if Sargeras was to ever enter unto a planet, this means that he has more personal power then the Legion combined and that's about it. To say otherwise can only be speculation.

No thats pretty conclusive that the fight is over at that point coming from one of the Dragonflights leaders. His exact wording was much more poetic then "screwed".

This would require, in Hell at least, one of the Archdevils or one of the Dark Eight. One set has absolute loyalty to Asmodeus (and are monitored by him) and the other are of impressive powers themselves and possess large egos that have little room for letting another powerful being threaten their reigns in hell (and are even MORE closely watched by Asmodeus for plots, if some super-being begins to whisper to one of them, they'd have to be damn careful not to be caught and STILL be convincing enough to sway an arch-devil, no easy feat)

Point taken, but it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that at least one of them would listen to him in exchange for help against their blood war enemies and think they can turn the tables. It is what devils and or demons do.

Callos_DeTerran

2008-08-16, 02:59 AM

No thats pretty conclusive that the fight is over at that point coming from one of the Dragonflights leaders. His exact wording was much more poetic then "screwed".

I mistyped above, my point was that the information given only seems to say Sargeras is more powerful then the Legion combined and it'd only take him to wipe out Azeroth. This does not mean it'd apply to every planet or plane, and as I said, it'd merely be speculation to assume otherwise.

Point taken, but it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that at least one of them would listen to him in exchange for help against their blood war enemies and think they can turn the tables. It is what devils and or demons do.

There's only one archdevil TRULY interested in the Blood War and that's Bel, Lord of the First and the weakest of the Arch-Devils. More importantly ALL of the Archdevils are very intelligent creatures, some supernaturally so, and the chances of them allying with a being who's true motivations they can't divine (or if they did divine would be diametrically opposed to their own) is slim to none. Of course they MAY try and turn the tables, it's what devils do, but they'd do it in a safe manner that would, in the best case scenario, not give Sargeras what he wants at all.

hamishspence

2008-08-16, 03:19 AM

Avernus apparently has multiple exiled unique devils, some on a par with archdevils, who bear no love for Asmodeus. Whether they would be much help, or useful allies, I am not sure.

freerangetroll

2008-08-16, 03:20 AM

Thanks for the clarification. Although I would argue that not a single world he has arrived at or sent his legions to has managed to survive. That seems to weigh in on the argument of if he arrives, you lose.

As far as your second quote goes. I'm not saying that influencing a major devil would be easy, just that it is a possibility. I mean if Big A can manipulate all of the participants, I am fairly certain Sargeras could do it given enough time.

While the forums where being backed up I also found another interesting showcase of just how badass (read overpowered) Sargeras is. Appearently a weapon that wiped out the entire blue dragon flight at once, including their leader aspect, had absolutely no effect on Sargeras when it was used on him.

Swok

2008-08-16, 03:37 AM

Callos_DeTerran

2008-08-16, 03:52 AM

Swok

2008-08-16, 03:59 AM

It's apparently vague on that point. I have a feeling it's the True Him, as Elune is CR 93 or so. And Elune is an actual god...if one that's all distant and uninvolved.

Querzis

2008-08-16, 04:10 AM

Not a single world he has stepped on has survived =/= He destroys a world on entering, automatically, lololololol.

Also, just got this from a friend with some of the 3.5 warcraft stuff. "Aggrama CR 71, Eonar CR 70, Golganneth Cr 73, Khaz'goroth CR 65, Norgannon CR 74, Sargeras CR 73" From Shadows and Light, from the Warcraft RPG.

I'm thinking such overinflated CR indicate Dicefreaks is fair game.

Especially considering the fact that the CR 73 is his avatar, not him. Assuming his avatar is only a fraction of his power, his real CR could go in the hundred. Either way, Elune is CR 93 because shes kinda presented as our sort of god more then a fantasy god. You know, the kind of god thats totally omniscient and could probably destroy the universe in 7 days.

By the way swok, though they are pretty vague about it in the RPG book, we can easely assume its his avatar CR since Sargeras is supposed to be strongest titans (and thats before he even started to absorb the magic of the world he destroy) so with Norgannon CR 74, we know Sargeras true Cr is higher then that.

Swok

2008-08-16, 04:14 AM

Especially considering the fact that the CR 73 is his avatar, not him. Assuming his avatar is only a fraction of his power, his real CR could go in the hundred. Either way, do you have the CR of Elune? I never remember it but I think its the highest CR we were given.

Elune is CR 93. I really doubt the CR 73 is his avatar. As you're basically saying Aegwynn has the capability of harming a CR 73 entity. And she was very much mortal (and yes, he let her beat him. Though saying this would suddenly let her spank his avatar is like saying a fully grown adult male letting a baby beat it up means he would die).

Querzis

2008-08-16, 04:20 AM

Elune is CR 93. I really doubt the CR 73 is his avatar. As you're basically saying Aegwynn has the capability of harming a CR 73 entity. And she was very much mortal (and yes, he let her beat him. Though saying this would suddenly let her spank his avatar is like saying a fully grown adult male letting a baby beat it up means he would die).

Thats because a CR 73 avatar is honestly not enough to destroy a world like Azeroth so it would have been pointless to kill Aegwynn. There is more then enough CR 50 running around that world to beat a CR 73 if they unite against him. While, in the body of Medivh, Sargeras could have brought all his demons and, eventually, his real body into Azeroth if it wasnt for the fact that Medivh childhood friend killed him.

Swok

2008-08-16, 04:30 AM

Thats because a CR 73 avatar is honestly not enough to destroy a world like Azeroth so it would have been pointless to kill Aegwynn. There is more then enough CR 50 running around that world to beat a CR 73 if they unite against him. While, in the body of Medivh, Sargeras could have brought all his demons and, eventually, his real body into Azeroth if it wasnt for the fact that Medivh childhood friend killed him.

I find it hard to believe that Azeroth, what is largely considered to be a low powered world compared to other settings, is overflowing with CR 50 mortals.

Seriously, how the hell did the Lich King "lose" in the VS Sauron thread?

Querzis

2008-08-16, 05:03 AM

I find it hard to believe that Azeroth, what is largely considered to be a low powered world compared to other settings, is overflowing with CR 50 mortals.

Seriously, how the hell did the Lich King "lose" in the VS Sauron thread?

I dunno since the Lich king is one of those CR 50 and since, if there is a low powered world compared to other settings, its LoTR. It wasnt back in the Silmarillion but, when the LoTR trilogy start, there isnt a lot of powerfull being around except Tom Bombadil.

But honestly, I think he lost just because there is more LoTR fanboy then warcraft fanboy and we seems to define 'win' in an argument with the side that do more noise. I mean, on the WoW forum the argument is: «does the Lich king qualify as a god or not» and here the debate is: «can the Lich King win against someone who got defeated when a human cut his finger with a broken sword»...

Anyway, you seems to have the RPG book (or did you find your information on the internet?) Either way, go look at the Lich king stat and power and tell me if you honestly think Sauron can win against that. Even though I dont have the RPG book, I remember being awestruck for a while after reading that. And yes, I really just say 'that' because I think that level of power is just ridiculous.

And by the way, there is no real low powered fantasy universe. There is just one overpowered fantasy universe (D&D). Epic caster get a bit too crazy and, considering the fact that there is apparently really some spell powerfull enough to destroy big city in other book, I'm just glad I only go with core D&D and never did an epic campaign because its really ridiculous at this point.

Anyway, the real reason why I'm sure its Sargeras Avatar is still that Nordannon is CR 74 even though Sargeras was already the most powerfull Titan before he even began to absorb the magic of the world he destroy. So no matter how you look at it, its kinda impossible for sargeras to only be CR 73 when some random Titans are also around this CR. And by the way, anyone got the CR of Aman'thul? Hes supposed to be the second most powerfull titan after all and hes Sargeras brother so it could be helpfull.

Selrahc

2008-08-16, 08:55 AM

Seriously, how the hell did the Lich King "lose" in the VS Sauron thread?

He didn't. Not in the least. Dozens of dozens of people argued against the 3 or 4 supporters of Sauron. You may have been confused because the stated goal of one of the proponents of the Sauron side was to "Get the last word" by annoying people until they couldn't be bothered to argue with him, and then claim victory.

GoC

2008-08-16, 10:14 AM

I don't consider Pun-Pun a threat when he relies upon there BEING a Forgotten Realms and being from it to function. :smalltongue: And at this point I'm more then certain that Sargeras and Asmodeus have magic that'd make a Tippy wizard sit down and cry. Or at least I know for a fact that Asmodeus does and the same tendency to use under-handed tricks as a Tippy wizard (except HE doesn't need to spend money doing it).

I'm going to make a guess here: You haven't seen some of Tippy's more powerful tricks?
Unlimited spellcraft DCs means the ability to create entire universes (complete with all the people in them) and niether of our two competitors can do that. He's also immune to all spells, damaging effects and status effects and can use Pun-Pun's monty trick for infinite lives should the need arise.
:smallamused:

Lord of Rapture

2008-08-16, 10:23 AM

Steven the Lich

2008-08-16, 10:45 AM

Seriously, how the hell did the Lich King "lose" in the VS Sauron thread? He didn't lose. It ultimately ended as a draw (Though some people would argue that, such as EE who said that he never agreed to a draw while his allies did). I could say that LK won because when I made a poll to moniter the progress (It was illegal to do this, but I didn't know, and EE gave me a hard time about this), and a great deal of people believed that LK's side put up the better argument. Of course, numbers don't matter to EE.

Elune is CR 93. I really doubt the CR 73 is his avatar. As you're basically saying Aegwynn has the capability of harming a CR 73 entity. And she was very much mortal (and yes, he let her beat him. Though saying this would suddenly let her spank his avatar is like saying a fully grown adult male letting a baby beat it up means he would die). Elune is not stronger than Sargeras, that is as obvious as fruit not being meat.

Sargeras is. Appearently a weapon that wiped out the entire blue dragon flight at once, including their leader aspect, had absolutely no effect on Sargeras when it was used on him. Holy... errrr... Unholy cow! I had no idea of that encounter! A weapon made for destroying demons fails against the ultimate demon. Chalk one up for Sargeras. How does it affect his minions? I don't mean average ones, I mean Archimonde, Mannoroth, or Kil'Jaeden.

I mistyped above, my point was that the information given only seems to say Sargeras is more powerful then the Legion combined and it'd only take him to wipe out Azeroth. This does not mean it'd apply to every planet or plane, and as I said, it'd merely be speculation to assume otherwise. Are you saying that there are other planets that are better than Azeroth? Azeroth is pretty much the most resistant world he ever came across, and maybe ever will come across. If Azeroth can't survive, I don't think theres much chance that any other world could, excluding the Titans world.

As an interesting note, Sarg is apparently immune to Fire based and Fel based magics (WoW wiki source). How would that impact the beings he would be engaging in Big A's domain. Can fel equal demonic or devilish since that would be the closest DnD equivalent. So basically, a majority of what the devils use in D&D is null and void. Still doubtful that Sargeras can hand his minions bottoms to them all at once? Does Asmodeus have any such immunity?

The Old Gods are not the greatest evil in the universe. They are evil, but while their drive is to dominate Azeroth, Sargeras' is to destroy the universe to return it to its chaotic from which the Titans are attempting to bring it into order. The Old Gods care nothing for the universe, as long as they get Azeroth for themselves. I think they may be more or less the same age as the Titans.

EDIT: Once again, I prove that my timing of post is off.

All this talk of Sargeras defeating any world he entered.... didn't he alreadyenter Azeroth? And got his ass handed to him by a mortal human? Granted, she was the most powerful magical human at the time, and he meant to lose, but he still entered Azeroth... and died.
Ummm... One word... Avatar. It was not his full power. It would have been essentially useless to try and destroy the world when he was like that. He let Aegwynn win, and even so, she was the strongest mage at the time I could say, because she was the Guardian of Tirisfal. That gives her exceptional power that few can have.
This should not count as a defeat for Sargeras, because he won to a degree. (Heck, even with his death as Medivh, he should looks on the bright side since Lothar had to kill his chaildhood friend to banish Sargeras... Evil bonus)

Anteros

2008-08-16, 11:00 AM

Callos_DeTerran

2008-08-16, 11:23 AM

I'm going to make a guess here: You haven't seen some of Tippy's more powerful tricks?
Unlimited spellcraft DCs means the ability to create entire universes (complete with all the people in them) and niether of our two competitors can do that. He's also immune to all spells, damaging effects and status effects and can use Pun-Pun's monty trick for infinite lives should the need arise.
:smallamused:

I don't care to look at those absurd thought experiments Tippy did for whatever ungodly reason. My point was if Asmodeus can do all the same tricks (And believe me, he can) as a Tippy wizard but started off inherently better, which one do you really believe is more powerful or at least has the advantage? :smallamused: What? You think only a PC wizard can do those things?

So basically, a majority of what the devils use in D&D is null and void. Still doubtful that Sargeras can hand his minions bottoms to them all at once? Does Asmodeus have any such immunity?

What? Where on earth did you get the idea that all they can do is null and void? If a mage and a pit fiend cast a the same fireball does the pit fiend's become diabolic merely on basis of it's source? No. It's still just plain magic. That said while fire IS a big asset of devils that's not all they rely on. For one more and more devils use Hellfire, which (despite it's name) is merely the hottest fire that magic can make. Hot enough to burn through fire immunity. Null and void my tentacled foot.

Steven the Lich

2008-08-16, 11:48 AM

What? Where on earth did you get the idea that all they can do is null and void? If a mage and a pit fiend cast a the same fireball does the pit fiend's become diabolic merely on basis of it's source? No. It's still just plain magic. That said while fire IS a big asset of devils that's not all they rely on. For one more and more devils use Hellfire, which (despite it's name) is merely the hottest fire that magic can make. Hot enough to burn through fire immunity. Null and void my tentacled foot. Somehow, I think that has a lesser effect than a evil artifact that wipes out an entire dragonflight as well as demons and such. The Demon Soul had no effect on Sargeras, I seriously doubt that Hell Fire can do more.

konfeta

2008-08-16, 11:58 AM

And this tread completed and restarted it's cycle of arguments. Shame.

freerangetroll

2008-08-16, 12:04 PM

Not a single world he has stepped on has survived =/= He destroys a world on entering, automatically, lololololol.

True, I never said the world automatically dies upon his entrance. I'm just taking what is said about him and then taking his past performance seeing as how he has wiped out thousands of worlds before finding Azeroth. Maybe it takes him a day, maybe it takes him a week. Thing is, the world still goes kaboom.

Not that this would have en effect on demons or devils I would think. But damn, within one thousand miles of him the temperature of wherever he is increases by 50 degrees. :|

The Boyce

2008-08-16, 12:31 PM

Where exactly did it say the Demon Soul didn't effect Sargeras? Because I've read that trilogy and I don't remember it. I'd also like to point out that the Soul killing the Blue Dragonflight isn't impressive considering it was infused with the essence of all the Azerothian dragons.

Further bringing up the Lich King raises the point that The Burning Legion is apparently filled with idiots. They can't even keep one dead shaman from ruining their plans.

Though to be fair the writing behind the WOWverse has never been very...good

Swok

2008-08-16, 12:32 PM

True, I never said the world automatically dies upon his entrance. I'm just taking what is said about him and then taking his past performance seeing as how he has wiped out thousands of worlds before finding Azeroth. Maybe it takes him a day, maybe it takes him a week. Thing is, the world still goes kaboom.

Not that this would have en effect on demons or devils I would think. But damn, within one thousand miles of him the temperature of wherever he is increases by 50 degrees. :|

I'm not quite sure how that would interact with a divinely (well...devilishly) morphic plane, though. Now that would be a problem if he entered a Prime, but...well, as said before, there's more than just Asmodeus getting involved in Sargeras tries to enter the prime.

Also, the lost the vs Sauron thread comment was just the impression I had from the last time I wasted time reading that thread. I used scare quotes for a reason.

freerangetroll

2008-08-16, 12:39 PM

Where exactly did it say the Demon Soul didn't effect Sargeras? Because I've read that trilogy and I don't remember it. I'd also like to point out that the Soul killing the Blue Dragonflight isn't impressive considering it was infused with the essence of all the Azerothian dragons.

Invulnerability against mortal weapons, and limited immunity to immortal ones (the axe created by Cenarius for Broxigar was able to wound him, but not to any great effect), while the powers of the Demon Soul had no effect) as well as complete immunity to fire and fel magics.

From his wow wiki.

Swok

2008-08-16, 12:43 PM

Invulnerability against mortal weapons, and limited immunity to immortal ones (the axe created by Cenarius for Broxigar was able to wound him, but not to any great effect), while the powers of the Demon Soul had no effect) as well as complete immunity to fire and fel magics.

From his wow wiki.

Preceding the section that contains that point:

"This article or section includes speculation, observations or opinions possibly supported by lore or by Blizzard officials.
It should not be taken as representing official lore!"

Linky (http://www.wowwiki.com/Sargeras)

Also, a few of the points in that section are sourced. That one is not.

The Boyce

2008-08-16, 12:47 PM

Invulnerability against mortal weapons, and limited immunity to immortal ones (the axe created by Cenarius for Broxigar was able to wound him, but not to any great effect), while the powers of the Demon Soul had no effect) as well as complete immunity to fire and fel magics.

From his wow wiki.

Edit: Further Malfurion was able to hurt Sargeras with his magic which caused him to lose focus and allowed the portal to collapse.

Edit part 2: Damn you and your quickness Swok

freerangetroll

2008-08-16, 12:56 PM

As far as I know Malfurion has blown a horn to summon the whisps and he disrupted a portal that the highborn elves were using to bring through Sargeras. He never directly came into conflict with Sargeras.

As to the wiki thing. Yes that source is not sited, but since it seems to have been there for a while I doubt it was made out of complete wholecloth.

Callos_DeTerran

2008-08-16, 01:56 PM

Somehow, I think that has a lesser effect than a evil artifact that wipes out an entire dragonflight as well as demons and such. The Demon Soul had no effect on Sargeras, I seriously doubt that Hell Fire can do more.

I would dispute this claim. The point of fact is that, barring Epic magic that specifically mentions invulnerability to hellfire or similar specific immunity to hellfire (Which I don't actually think anything has but I'm just covering that base too), hellfire has yet to fail to burn something. This means, in essence, that hellfire can wipe out those exact same things if there was enough of it or used in the proper manner. As is the only things to USE hellfire are two spells that are deliberately nerfed, so PC's don't abuse them, and the Disciple of the Lord of the Eighth that uses lots of hellfire but is meant for bad guys and not players because it is, essentially, unbalanced in and of itself.

That's why I'd argue that unless Sargeras had rather specific (and I'd say deus ex machina resistance to an energy he's never encountered) immunity/resistance to hellfire then that's his 'one hell of a big chink in his armor' that would be exploited as all hell.

And no, the tempature in hell increasing by 50 degrees wouldn't effect the devils at all, only the souls there.

Steven the Lich

2008-08-16, 03:24 PM

That's why I'd argue that unless Sargeras had rather specific (and I'd say deus ex machina resistance to an energy he's never encountered) immunity/resistance to hellfire then that's his 'one hell of a big chink in his armor' that would be exploited as all hell. Immunity to fire and fel energies. Is Hell Fire unholy or just hot? If former, Sargeras has a double immunity. If latter, then granted, although it can be turned against the casters by the eredar and other demons.

Further bringing up the Lich King raises the point that The Burning Legion is apparently filled with idiots. They can't even keep one dead shaman from ruining their plans. You overlook that the Lich King is in fact one of the main villains in the game (Second only to Sargeras in my opinion). The Burning Legion isn't stupid, the Lich King was just smarter.

Though to be fair the writing behind the WOWverse has never been very...good How is it poorly written? I find it to be one of the best fantasy settings. If it is poor in your view because Blizzard changes the lore around to fit, hey, Tolkien did that too, I'm pretty sure.

Swok

2008-08-16, 03:41 PM

Incendius

2008-08-16, 04:13 PM

There are things immune to fire, magical or otherwise in D&D also. Hellfire punches through it. Brutally.

The question isn't "Does it punch through fire immunity?" it was "Does it punch through fire immunity because it is inconceivably hot or is it simply another form of unholy energy in the form of fire?"

The Boyce

2008-08-16, 04:17 PM

War of the Ancients trilogy is the only, presumably, canon description of Sargeras fighting and the last book has Broxigar damaging his foot and Malfurion causing him pain.

The Lich King wasn't even mentioned until the expansion for Warcraft 2, if memory serves, though he might have been in the basic manual. At the end of the expansion he fled from Draenor and was caught by the Burning Legion and tormented.

Then they decided to use him as the Lich King. Then he suddenly became uber strong. Nevermind the fact that he bviously wasn't that smart as he was tricked by the Burning Legion into corrupting the orcs and slaughtering the previously peaceful Draenaei.

As for bad writing see the discrepancy between the supposedly cunning Archimonde and Kil'Jaedan and they're dealing in regards to the Lich King

Eldan

2008-08-16, 04:19 PM

Doesn't matter. Fire elementals get hurt by it. Imix get's hurt by it. *Insert fire god of the setting of your choice* gets hurt by it. There is no immunity or resistance against it.

Innis Cabal

2008-08-16, 04:26 PM

Its just that flipping hot. As Eldan said, the very King of the Flame Imix gets damaged by it. If you have stuff to burn, it burns it. And then laughs

Steven the Lich

2008-08-16, 04:53 PM

Alright. Granted, it can harm Sargeras, though how much it can do needs to be determined. And even then, it needs to hit Sargeras. Why is that a problem? The Legion has masters of magic and is able to turn magic against its enemies. Like how your side suggested Archimonde twisted the magic of the Wizards of Dalaran to destroy it.

War of the Ancients trilogy is the only, presumably, canon description of Sargeras fighting and the last book has Broxigar damaging his foot and Malfurion causing him pain. And Brox had a magical axe, and Malfurion called upon nature (Like he did with Archimonde). Both are exceptional cases, as both beings were powerful. Need I say that Brox is a special exception because he killed thousands of demons before Sargeras came to kill him. As far as injuries go, Sargeras received only one as far as we can tell.

Then they decided to use him as the Lich King. Then he suddenly became uber strong. Nevermind the fact that he bviously wasn't that smart as he was tricked by the Burning Legion into corrupting the orcs and slaughtering the previously peaceful Draenaei. They did not just outright make the LK super powerful. He was granted his great powers by Kil'Jaeden, and his consciousness was increased in the crystal he was trapped in. Even before, he had a good resistence to Kil'Jaedens will.

As for bad writing see the discrepancy between the supposedly cunning Archimonde and Kil'Jaedan and they're dealing in regards to the Lich King He played the role of loyal pet quite well. The Dreadlords were actually quite suspicious. Kil'Jaeden wasn't stupid, because if he was, he wouldn't know that the LK had a hand in the killing of Tichondrius (Which led to the defeat of the Legion at Hyjal, since he was the strategist). LK didn't do the dirty work... He got Illidan to do it. Kil'Jaeden wasn't fooled anyway.
If that is your only case of its bad writing, you don't have much of a case.

Callos_DeTerran

2008-08-16, 04:56 PM

Immunity to fire and fel energies. Is Hell Fire unholy or just hot? If former, Sargeras has a double immunity. If latter, then granted, although it can be turned against the casters by the eredar and other demons.

Despite various connotations when it's described as being corrupt or evil, that's merely because it's creator was an archdevil. It's simply friggin' flame hot enough to burn living incarnations of flame. So it's not fel energies which I'd attribute to being essentially the same as unholy.

What are the eredar and whatnot who can turn this back and how would they do so?

chiasaur11

2008-08-16, 05:04 PM

Doesn't matter. Fire elementals get hurt by it. Imix get's hurt by it. *Insert fire god of the setting of your choice* gets hurt by it. There is no immunity or resistance against it.

Well, singular enemy might work.
But that ability was never meant to get to the PCs anyway.

Querzis

2008-08-16, 05:04 PM

All this talk of Sargeras defeating any world he entered.... didn't he alreadyenter Azeroth? And got his ass handed to him by a mortal human? Granted, she was the most powerful magical human at the time, and he meant to lose, but he still entered Azeroth... and died.

Look if you post in a thread, at least read the previous page first. We already talked about that. But in short, it was an avatar, the real Sargeras never set foot on Azeroth and he let her beat him on purpose.

War of the Ancients trilogy is the only, presumably, canon description of Sargeras fighting and the last book has Broxigar damaging his foot and Malfurion causing him pain.

I remember it as, by the own word of Malfurion, Broxigar scratching his foot and the combined power of Malfurion, Kaldar and Illidan focusing on his wound. Even then Malfurion said Sargeras didnt stop to look at his foot out of pain but more out of curiosity. In other word, 3 epic caster coudnt even cause him pain (which seems to indicate hes probably more vulnerable to weapon then magic...though since a demi-god created brox axe, maybe not).

The Lich King wasn't even mentioned until the expansion for Warcraft 2, if memory serves, though he might have been in the basic manual. At the end of the expansion he fled from Draenor and was caught by the Burning Legion and tormented.

...What the hell? He wasnt the Lich King back then, he was just Ner'zhul. And Ner'zhul had a really important role in Warcraft 2. I dunno about Warcraft 1 since I never finished the game but the story wasnt really developped back then anyway.

Then they decided to use him as the Lich King. Then he suddenly became uber strong. Nevermind the fact that he bviously wasn't that smart as he was tricked by the Burning Legion into corrupting the orcs and slaughtering the previously peaceful Draenaei.

This is so wrong...Ner'zhul was already pretty strong in the first place anyway. But, more importantly, this is what happened (its from WoW wiki):

«One day, Ner'zhul was contacted by the spirit of his dead mate, Rulkan (with whom he had a regular correspondence), who warned him about the menace of the draenei, who were plotting to destroy the orcs. After several moons, she introduced him to Kil'jaeden, the "Great One", who began to instruct him in the ways of warlock magic and the treachery of the draenei. Though Ner'zhul was elated that he was saving his people (and finally getting the power and respect he deserved), he was puzzled why the ancestors would no longer speak to him, and why the spirits grew more distant.

Ner'zhul managed to get the rest of the clans to begin attacks on draenei settlements, supposedly by order of the ancestors, but, as he saw more and more of the draenei, he gradually became puzzled; apart from his horns, clothes, and skin tone, Kil'jaeden bore an odd resemblance to the draenei and possessed a hatred of Velen unbecoming of a divine being. Seeking answers, he attempted to commune with the ancestors in Oshu'gun, the "Mountain of the Spirits." He was horrified when the ancestors greeted him as a monster, and the real Rulkan revealed the truth: Kil'jaeden had been lying all along.

Ner'zhul resolved to defy his demon master, but Gul'dan, his apprentice, had followed him, and, greedy for his own power, informed Kil'jaeden of the betrayal of the shaman. Kil'jaeden, ever one to reward good service, elevated Gul'dan to Ner'zhul's position, and Ner'zhul was relegated to a decorative position, his powers stripped from him. Kil'jaeden forced Ner'zhul to watch helplessly as the orcs slid into bloodlust and warlock magic. He was powerless to stop the rise of the Shadow Council, privy to all their secrets but able to reveal none.

But Gul'dan grew careless. Thinking Ner'zhul completely powerless, he allowed his former teacher access to all of the Shadow Council's documents, and it was thus that Ner'zhul discovered that Kil'jaeden was planning to feed the Blood of Mannoroth to the orcs. Ner'zhul's wasted position and Gul'dan's baleful influence meant that none of the chieftains would listen to his warnings, with the exception of one.

As a result of Ner'zhul's advice, Durotan of the Frostwolf Clan refused to allow his clan to drink the blood of Mannoroth, and saved them from the worst of the corruption. Alas, Durotan and his mate Draka were the only people aware of Ner'zhul's actions- a secret that died with them years later. Today, no one has any idea that one of Azeroth's greatest enemies saved the orcs from complete and utter annihilation»

His dead wife told him that the draenei were gonna kill them. I dunno about you but I'd believe her, especially since Ner'zhul had been talking to her for a long time before that. He did the first few attack against draenei but thats all. Ner'zhul is actually the first guy who ever managed to see through Kil'jaeden tricks.

As for bad writing see the discrepancy between the supposedly cunning Archimonde and Kil'Jaedan and they're dealing in regards to the Lich King

Ok, first, Kil'jaeden is the smart one. Archimonde is more the «lets destroy everything» kind of villain. And either way, what did they do that was supposed to be stupid? The Lich king exist now because they lost the war. You may say Archimonde was stupid and arrogant for walking in the night elf trap and I would agree with you (though I guess he didnt expect the night elf to blow up their own source of power and immortality as well as sacrifice the souls of thousand of night elves.) But otherwise I dont see your point, what does that have to do with the Lich king?

Edit: Thank you Steven, I forgot about helping Illidan. Yes so Archimonde should have just destroyed the Lich king after giving his power to the dreadlords. But once again, Archimonde wasnt especially smart, Kil'jaeden is the mastermind here. And Kil'jaeden had nothing to do with it.

konfeta

2008-08-16, 05:22 PM

Then they decided to use him as the Lich King. Then he suddenly became uber strong. Nevermind the fact that he bviously wasn't that smart as he was tricked by the Burning Legion into corrupting the orcs and slaughtering the previously peaceful Draenaei.

As for bad writing see the discrepancy between the supposedly cunning Archimonde and Kil'Jaedan and they're dealing in regards to the Lich King

More of bad reading on your part. Archimonde was a brute; Kil'Jaeden's purpose of engineering the Scourge was to flatten humans and than discard the Lich King. Ner'Zul didn't just become "uber strong," he was specifically turned into a psychic mastermind by Kil'Jaeden so he could make the undead army work.

WoW has a lot of stupid retcons which damged Warcraft's writing; but the Lich King thing is one one of them.

Querzis

2008-08-16, 05:25 PM

WoW has a lot of stupid retcons which damged Warcraft's writing; but the Lich King thing is one one of them.

Well thats kinda why I stopped playing WoW, I gotta agree it messed up the lore badly. But I still hope that, one day, Blizzard is going to say that everything that happened in WoW got no real effect on the lore and then I'll be able to forget those stupid retcons. My hope arent too high though.

konfeta

2008-08-16, 05:30 PM

Steven the Lich

2008-08-16, 10:04 PM

I think the major problem with WoW is that it updates lore unevenly and accommodates the updates for gameplay (I still can't get over on how poorly they handled Illidain's death; I just hope they won't make the same mistake for the Lich King. He was pretty much the central driving force for Warcraft 3 and TFT as well as a good portion of WC2 events and Orc history as a whole; and then elevated into a god.... He is essentially one of the best candidates for bringing down the Burning Legion outside of the good guys. Why waste that on a loot pinata position?). Blizzard had stated their regret in placing Illidan as a boss as early as they did, but guess what? They made up for that with Kil'Jaeden being the end boss, and they put a twist on it (Kael'Thas betraying Illidan... seriously, who could've seen that coming?)
They are not going to simply have him be a killable boss. Even with Illidan, they didn't have players alone kill him, Maeiv is the one who kills him. So they do finish up that storyline which can be used for Warcraft 4 (Pray to the deities that it will happen, and ends up epic).
What is going to happen to LK is likely him going "Pathetic insects. I have more important things to contend with." Then he may summon a frost wyrm or undead drake, and fly his way out.

The end result is that we have a mishmash of incomplete new lore with retconned/outdated lore filling in the gaps. I am sure it all makes sense in Metzen's personal Warcraft bible, but we, as the audience are left in the dark. It could be a lot worse. Besides, if you looks up the lore and read it in detail, you can put together a good deal of stuff.

Swok

2008-08-16, 10:33 PM

(Kael'Thas betraying Illidan... seriously, who could've seen that coming?)

Are we talking about the same Megalomanic selfish and insane Kael'thas here? Srsly, you kind of blatantly saw he only served someone as long as it benefitted him, what with already leaving a faction he was "loyal" to.

The Boyce

2008-08-16, 11:15 PM

More of bad reading on your part. Archimonde was a brute; Kil'Jaeden's purpose of engineering the Scourge was to flatten humans and than discard the Lich King. Ner'Zul didn't just become "uber strong," he was specifically turned into a psychic mastermind by Kil'Jaeden so he could make the undead army work.

WoW has a lot of stupid retcons which damged Warcraft's writing; but the Lich King thing is one one of them.

Do you see here the problem with Kil'jaeden being the "smart" lieutenant? he created a minion, one who had already proven disloyalty, into a creature so powerful it threatened Kil'Jaedan enough that he sent Illidan after him. Not to mention the fact that if e's capable of creating such a creature why wouldn't he just do it himself?

But to get back on topic Big A would win this fight because he has patience, planning, and well just plain out more intellect. A would certainly win a war and I'd say has the better odds on a battle, though that would be more circumstantial.

konfeta

2008-08-17, 12:04 AM

Still, it cheapened Illidain's death. I can understand that they wanted him dead, he already played his part of the story, but it's so banal. "So yeah, he went insane. Um. Go kill him."

It could be a lot worse. Besides, if you looks up the lore and read it in detail, you can put together a good deal of stuff.

Half of the stuff you put together will be wrong. While it might add to the "legendary and no one really knows everything" feeling, it's still pretty annoying to find out that things you thought you knew to be true get changed just because.

Do you see here the problem with Kil'jaeden being the "smart" lieutenant? he created a minion, one who had already proven disloyalty, into a creature so powerful it threatened Kil'Jaedan enough that he sent Illidan after him. Not to mention the fact that if e's capable of creating such a creature why wouldn't he just do it himself?

In the context, it makes sense. Kil'Jaeden was angry with Ner'Zhul for his unwillingness to carry out his plans for the Orcish race, he was especially pissed off at the Orcs for failing the invasion because of petty squabbles, he needed to let some steam off. So he caught Ner'Zhul, tortured him to the point of destroying his body (literally), and decided to use a pawn he has naturally assumed to have been bullied into submission to carry out a new invasion under very watchful eyes of his Dreadlords. And, in his defense, it did work. Ner'Zhul didn't actually sabotage the invasion in any way and carried out his task admirably, which contributed to Kil'Jaeden's feeling of security. The Lich King accomplished his mission (eradicate Lordaeron and Elven resistance, summon Archimonde) without a hitch or a peep.

As for the "why he didn't do it himself," the problem lies in scale of power. The stronger the demon, the more difficult it is for it to enter a world while in full use of it's abilities (avatars and projections are the limits of the greater demon lords; otherwise they need to be summoned). The Burning Legion makes use of agents to set up the world for an invasion, since the Orcs failed, they needed an agent that would do the job right. A single, intimidated, yet sufficiently knowledgeable and powerful being to single-handily command an army while imprisoned and careful watch was a fine choice. Makes sense to me.

Lastly, the Lich King did not threaten Kil'Jaeden during TFT events. He simply wanted revenge and no more interference by the Lich King because he officially lost control of him.

Just read the wowwiki sections:

http://www.wowwiki.com/Ner%27zhul
http://www.wowwiki.com/Lich_King

The Burning Legion had no reason to believe that the Lich King would attempt a betrayal after a point when they have essentially won (as I said, most of the work done by the Burning Legion is preparing an invasion, not the act of invasion itself). It would have been suicide for him to intervene directly, as they have stripped him of his army. He essentially sent a messenger to convene an interesting piece of information to Illidain. Actions taken by Illidain weren't at all threatening to Archimonde's assent at a glance, because the BL had no idea on the kind of defense Malfurion set up.

Plus, Archimonde was the one who carried out the invasion itself. As I said, he was the brute, he didn't care about Kil'Jaeden's toy. The toy did it's work, the toy has been rendered seemingly harmless, the toy had no reason or power to actually impede the Legion's victory (even Tichondrius's death didn't matter in the eyes of Archimonde, he didn't know his victory hinged at a timer), so why do anything about it? There is world conquering and Night Elf slaughtering to be done!

Querzis

2008-08-17, 12:13 AM

Do you see here the problem with Kil'jaeden being the "smart" lieutenant? he created a minion, one who had already proven disloyalty, into a creature so powerful it threatened Kil'Jaedan enough that he sent Illidan after him. Not to mention the fact that if e's capable of creating such a creature why wouldn't he just do it himself?

Once again this is so damn wrong. First, he made Ner'zhul into the Lich King BECAUSE he betrayed him. To become the Lich king, Ner'zhul body was torn apart, years of torture and sufferance were necessary and then he end stuck in a throne with no feeling left. The plan was also that they would destroy him as soon as they woudnt need him anymore, Archimonde was just not smart enough for that. Secondly, «a creature so powerfull it threatened Kil'jaeden»*...what the hell are you smoking? The Lich king is strong but still nothing that really threaten Kil'jaeden in any way. If he sent Illidan after him, its because the Lich king pissed him off and because he wanted to test Illidan strength.

As for why he didnt do it himself, the «years of torture and tear apart your body part» probably had something to do with it but mainly just because he didnt have access to Azeroth anyway so whats the point?

But to get back on topic Big A would win this fight because he has patience, planning, and well just plain out more intellect. A would certainly win a war and I'd say has the better odds on a battle, though that would be more circumstantial.

I said it two pages ago but, this is a vs thread. The fact that people still list what Asmodeus can do in hell or what his army can do there really annoy me. Sargeras and Asmodeus are in front of each other in a random place where no one has the advantage over the other, who win? Thats all I wanna know really. I dont wanna know if Asmodeus and his army could eventually kill Sargeras if he entered the nine hells alone for some stupid reason...Especially when that can be done the other way around too. If Asmodeus would enter the Twisting nether alone where the demons control all the dark energy and where Sargeras got all his army to help him then he would lose badly. That 'obviously' mean Sargeras would win the fight...

Who cares about Hellfire? That can only be done in the nine hell and is therefore not important. They can fight on the material plane, on Azeroth or in any random place where no one really have an advantage.

In a batman vs thread, does anybody say that if his opponent attack the Justice League headquarter then they would obviously lose because Batman would have the help of fellow superheroes? No. In a superman vs thread, does anyone point out that if they fight in a field of green kryptonite, superman lose? Not really. Then why are you guys still talking about the nine hells anyway?

freerangetroll

2008-08-17, 01:29 AM

Mostly because the Big A doesn't fight people directly as far as I know. Plus most VS threads usually go way off mark from the "white room style" when people see that if the scenario happened this way then their guy would win. Or others will say that person XXX never fights without their army so the army needs to be involved. Eh, either way the op didn't specify a white room/arena type match so I guess all is fair.

Swok

2008-08-17, 02:28 AM

Who cares about Hellfire? That can only be done in the nine hell and is therefore not important. They can fight on the material plane, on Azeroth or in any random place where no one really have an advantage.

Where in the nether did you get the idea that Hellfire was only usable in the Hells? It functions just fine elsewhere, thank you very much. Heart of Hellfire mountain would have been a nonthreat if it didn't.

Innis Cabal

2008-08-17, 02:29 AM

And all the juicy PrC's based around it to.

The Boyce

2008-08-17, 01:44 PM

In the context, it makes sense. Kil'Jaeden was angry with Ner'Zhul for his unwillingness to carry out his plans for the Orcish race, he was especially pissed off at the Orcs for failing the invasion because of petty squabbles, he needed to let some steam off. So he caught Ner'Zhul, tortured him to the point of destroying his body (literally), and decided to use a pawn he has naturally assumed to have been bullied into submission to carry out a new invasion under very watchful eyes of his Dreadlords. And, in his defense, it did work. Ner'Zhul didn't actually sabotage the invasion in any way and carried out his task admirably, which contributed to Kil'Jaeden's feeling of security. The Lich King accomplished his mission (eradicate Lordaeron and Elven resistance, summon Archimonde) without a hitch or a peep.

As for the "why he didn't do it himself," the problem lies in scale of power. The stronger the demon, the more difficult it is for it to enter a world while in full use of it's abilities (avatars and projections are the limits of the greater demon lords; otherwise they need to be summoned). The Burning Legion makes use of agents to set up the world for an invasion, since the Orcs failed, they needed an agent that would do the job right. A single, intimidated, yet sufficiently knowledgeable and powerful being to single-handily command an army while imprisoned and careful watch was a fine choice. Makes sense to me.

See here's the thing it doesn't actually make sense because Kil'Jaeden should be smart enough to think "Hmm I just tortured this guy a bunch maybe I shouldn't give him access exponential power growth".

I would also like to point out that he could have just done to Azeroth what he did to Draenor. Hell it would have been easier to just get quillboar and centaurs to do what he wanted then to involve the Eastern continent.

Lastly, the Lich King did not threaten Kil'Jaeden during TFT events. He simply wanted revenge and no more interference by the Lich King because he officially lost control of him.

Just read the wowwiki sections:

http://www.wowwiki.com/Ner%27zhul
http://www.wowwiki.com/Lich_King

The Burning Legion had no reason to believe that the Lich King would attempt a betrayal after a point when they have essentially won (as I said, most of the work done by the Burning Legion is preparing an invasion, not the act of invasion itself). It would have been suicide for him to intervene directly, as they have stripped him of his army. He essentially sent a messenger to convene an interesting piece of information to Illidain. Actions taken by Illidain weren't at all threatening to Archimonde's assent at a glance, because the BL had no idea on the kind of defense Malfurion set up.

Plus, Archimonde was the one who carried out the invasion itself. As I said, he was the brute, he didn't care about Kil'Jaeden's toy. The toy did it's work, the toy has been rendered seemingly harmless, the toy had no reason or power to actually impede the Legion's victory (even Tichondrius's death didn't matter in the eyes of Archimonde, he didn't know his victory hinged at a timer), so why do anything about it? There is world conquering and Night Elf slaughtering to be done!

This raises the question of what Kil'Jaeden was doing during the Mount Hyjal debacle. Given that Archimonde wasn't the greatest mind and that he had failed hard once before you'd think Kil would have been doing something.

I'd also like to point out the Legion fell for the same trick twice. "They would never destroy their source of magic! OH SHI-"

Once again this is so damn wrong. First, he made Ner'zhul into the Lich King BECAUSE he betrayed him. To become the Lich king, Ner'zhul body was torn apart, years of torture and sufferance were necessary and then he end stuck in a throne with no feeling left. The plan was also that they would destroy him as soon as they woudnt need him anymore, Archimonde was just not smart enough for that. Secondly, «a creature so powerfull it threatened Kil'jaeden»*...what the hell are you smoking? The Lich king is strong but still nothing that really threaten Kil'jaeden in any way. If he sent Illidan after him, its because the Lich king pissed him off and because he wanted to test Illidan strength.

As for why he didnt do it himself, the «years of torture and tear apart your body part» probably had something to do with it but mainly just because he didnt have access to Azeroth anyway so whats the point?

No this is damn wrong. Kil'jaedan had Nerzhul and could torture him as much as he wanted, and he did. Then he was like, become the Lich King or you get more torture.

He sent Illidan after him because, according to the wiki, "he knew that his best bet in destroying the traitor still lay in Illidan".

He could have tried to pull a Sargeras and been like "soul portion go become the Lich king" or he could have used one of the other shaman who wasn't Ner'zhul, or he could have just used dreadlords, or he could have limited the Lich King's power to begin with, but he didn't do those things.

As for your bit about white room fighting, this thread is based off the original post which says as follows:

Sargeras enters into a Dungeons and Dragon's setting. Asmodeus sees Sargeras as competition, while Sargeras desires to take the other Hells of his own. Who wins in all out war? Or just a battle?

Further, given that Sargeras allowed himself to be banished by Lothar and Khadgar and has since disappeared from the WOWverse seemingly altogether I'd say it's safe to say he's not that hard to beat.

freerangetroll

2008-08-17, 02:11 PM

You would be wrong in saying he is hard to beat. Every villain in this thread is beaten when it matters most (including the Big A) because the hero always wins.

Innis Cabal

2008-08-17, 02:12 PM

Thats a fallacy of modern fantasy. A real D&D game is all a matter of chance. The heros do and often lose.

freerangetroll

2008-08-17, 02:14 PM

Thats a fallacy of modern fantasy. A real D&D game is all a matter of chance. The heros do and often lose.

Unfortunately Sargeras is a creation of modern fantasy. So the rule applies to him, whether or not it applies to your dnd campaign is a moot point.

Edit: If you want realism and the "heroes" to not always come out on top when the fate of the world/city/whatever is in their hands. You should really be playing the World of Darkness games anyway.

Innis Cabal

2008-08-17, 02:20 PM

But Asmodeus wins all the time, and isnt bound to a modern fantasy set unless you want it to. And i think its a little silly to tell someone they should play another game if they want a realistic set up of good and evil and the victories there in.

The setting isnt important, If WoW holds to the good guys always wins, and clearly D&D dosnt or there would be no Big A to start or corrupted mortals, then Sag loses right there.

hamishspence

2008-08-17, 02:25 PM

Both villains, so no Heroes Always Win.

Swok

2008-08-17, 02:42 PM

Both villains, so no Heroes Always Win.

Important point, especially considering most VS. threads ban outside influence.

Because otherwise Asmodeus could trick a few epic level adventurers to kill Sargeras. Or elite Yugoloth units to harry the Burning Legion or...Yeah, it would end very badly for Sargeras, what with having no friends.

freerangetroll

2008-08-17, 03:37 PM

Innis Cabal

2008-08-17, 03:48 PM

freerangetroll

2008-08-17, 04:51 PM

ITs not though. Good dosnt always win and it dosnt always win when it matters. Thats how you view it maybe, but its not the truth. Good breaks even. Thats as simple as it is. If good won any real level of victory the material realm would be a happy place and its not.

I really don't want to derail this thread, so if we want to continue this this I will start another thread.

Before I do that I'd just like to point out the following facts. A big evil has not A.) destroyed the material plane or B.) conquered it. Now I know for a fact having read 99% of the Faerun setting books, and heaps of the fluff literature that a large number of them have tried both A and B. Yes the Zhents may rule a portion, or Garguath may corrupt a king. But in crunch time (pointing back to A and B because both are the only really important times) good always win.

Is the same thing in Azeroth. Certain parts of the setting are under heavy evil influence, but when they move to actually culminate their plans they are always beaten. Otherwise in Azeroth or Toril you would have no more setting.

Eldan

2008-08-17, 04:57 PM

It is true that evil hasn't really won. However, neither has it lost. Good doesn't win, it prevents evil from winning.
My oppinion is the same as Innis Cabal's here:
If evil wins, the prime gets destroyed or enslaved. If good wins, it's a perfect society, a perfect anarchy or a happy place full of flowers and bunnies.
Neither has happened. It's an eternal stalemate.
Now, some primes may well be any of the above. There could well be worlds ruled by Asmodeus. There could also be worlds so close to Elysium that they would be slipping if they were outer planes. There's a kind of ring world made by Illithids. The prime is a big place.

Innis Cabal

2008-08-17, 04:59 PM

Really, they break even at the very best. None of the villains go away, they just fall back. Why do you think all the good people dont go and blast them away? Because then things would get ugly, very ugly. But yes, derailing the thread is not a great idea.

Big A wont bother getting into direct combat. Period. And he is an epic spellcaster. That alone nets him the winning card if he wanted it

freerangetroll

2008-08-17, 05:10 PM

By the CR given for Sargeras avatar, just his avatar, and the fact the he is also a caster would put him at epic spellcasting levels by default yes?

As to the good wins thing. I guess I'll rephrase it to be evil always gets defeated at some point, in the sake of preserving a settings balance. Really, it means the same thing to me in regards to a previous poster stating that since Sargeras was stopped from destorying the world he is a pushover.

The Boyce

2008-08-17, 05:34 PM

We don't know if that;s the CR for his Avatar or Sargeras himself

Swok

2008-08-17, 08:05 PM

By the CR given for Sargeras avatar, just his avatar, and the fact the he is also a caster would put him at epic spellcasting levels by default yes?

Wrong on both counts. I said it's vague on what the stats for Sargeras in Shadows and Light are. It's probably the real deal though, since it reads more like it's vague in case you feel you want to stat him out stronger for your game and for some unholy reason break CR 100. I mean, it's not like everything hasn't fallen apart once you hit level 21.

Also. Epic Spellcasting explicitly does not exist in the Warcraft RPG, It is debatable that Elune has it, since she can cast any divine spell ever. But then, she's a god, and even then the ability might just refer to 9th level and lower. Sargeras is not a god. Furthermore, entities much more qualified for Epic Spellcasting do not have it. Like Norgannan, and he (or is it she...can never remember and it's probably mostly academic with Titans) is the Titan of Magic.

Callos_DeTerran

2008-08-17, 08:10 PM

My point was that one of the pro Big A people is saying that sarg lost so he can't be that tough. I was pointing out that everybody loses. In fact Big A did lose otherwise he wouldn't be at the bottom of the planes HEALING himself. So the concept that A always wins is false.

This is incorrect. Not completely but mostly. Now matter the version Asmodeus wasn't cast down into Hell because he lost. The injured (at least WotC version of it) Asmodeus was actually a result of him winning against the gods. He outsmarted them and in their rage he was cast down, but he still won. In Dicefreaks, he himself isn't even injured. This is because Asmodeus is nothing more then an Avatar himself for the Serpent (which I already mentioned really shouldn't be brought into this discussion). The Serpent itself is healing/has healed after it broke out of the Trinity at the same time the other two parts and from the sounds of it that break up killed the other two parts so that's a net win there as well.

I am not trying to use the "good always wins" as a pro or a con for either. Just that saying the heroes of a universe beat Sarg so therefore he is a pushover argument won't fly.

Also, DnD is full to the brim with good always wins. Yes evil wins in the short term, but if good actually lost when it mattered most (the fate of toril being in the balance) then you wouldn't have a setting. So good always wins there too.

Edit: Before somebody says "well not in my campaigns!"

Your campaign doesn't matter, I'm talking about DnD lore and fluff.

An understandable argument (the 'just because he was beaten before means he's a pushover' one) but the good always wins argument isn't always the case either. Granted, in most published setting good will generally win the decisive battles but not as many people as you might believe actually use those, this means 'your campaign' type arguments may very well take precedence. A couple examples though...

Dark Sun: Good doesn't win, good survives just as Evil survives after some very evil people screwed it up for everyone.

Greyhawk: It's a stale-mate but with reason since one of/the most powerful archmage of the setting FORCES the setting to stay balanced.

Toril: With the abundance of epic good mages above the level of the evil ones it's hard for good to not lose but evil is numerous and constantly seeking the advantage.

Eberron:...I don't know jack about that setting but it seems rather 'neutral' like Greyhawk.

By the CR given for Sargeras avatar, just his avatar, and the fact the he is also a caster would put him at epic spellcasting levels by default yes?

This is also a bit incorrect on two counts. The first has already been addressed, that no one's sure if the CR given for Sargeras is his avatar or actually him but it definitly doesn't bode well for Sargeras in any case. Why? If we're going by the most powerful form of Asmodeus so far published, which I've been advised to do, then Asmodeus is only an avatar himself. As a matter of fact I'll need to check his stats but it may actually be possible for there to be more then one of him but the Serpent doesn't do that often since it'd would let on the fact Asmodeus is just an avatar for it and nobody knows it exists yet. However that's aside the point. If we're using Dicefreaks Asmodeus then it simply doesn't bode well period. If that's just Sargeras's avatar then that's swell, the real him can probably take Asmodeus. But considering the Serpent can create a more powerful (by at least 10 CR at that) that gives a rather strong case that the Serpent itself is more powerful then Sargeras (or at least is much better at making avatars since it's only other 'model' of avatar, Satan, was ALSO the king of Baator.)

If it's NOT an avatar...well...then Sargeras is boned beyond boned even if he does defeat Asmodeus which would be very hard if not impossible but then the Serpent would come down on him and that would mean a fate worse then death.

As for the one who said that Asmodeus's actions in hell or his armies don't make a difference, that's bull-jive. They always matter because the man doesn't fight fair. He doesn't go into a fair fight for any reason, not even because it'd be challenge or amusing, only when it's heavily tilted in his favor. If for no other reason then Asmodeus will summon the living hell out of what he can (this can and will often include another Lord of the Nine or ALL of the other Lords of the Nine) or retreat until more favorable conditions present themselves. And this isn't a 'dropped into feature-less room and told to fight to the death' sort of battle, this is a 'Sargeras appears in a D&D setting alone and manages to tick off Big A enough to warrant conflict between the two'...speaking of, if Sargeras is alone then how is the Burning Legion getting there? o.o Sargeras does have a wave of bringing them along...right?

And two, epic creature with spell-casting does not equal epic spellcasting. The two are on different levels entirely. Either you have epic spellcasting or you don't. The Hundred-Handed god killing abominations can cast magic...it simply sucks and pertains specifically to making it better in physical combat, hardly what I'd call epic. Asmodeus on the other hand...Can cast clerical and arcane spells and, again if this is DF Asmodeus, then he knows ALL (or damn close) to all the spells of both types and has multiple unique epic spells he developed himself.

konfeta

2008-08-17, 08:34 PM

See here's the thing it doesn't actually make sense because Kil'Jaeden should be smart enough to think "Hmm I just tortured this guy a bunch maybe I shouldn't give him access exponential power growth".

"Hmm, I just tortured this guy to the point of utterly destroying his body, put him a prison he cannot escape out of by himself, and set up my most loyal guards around him. Also, despite his massive and exponentially growing psychic powers, I still could simply take away control of the Scourge away from him and hand it over to the Dreadlords."

Look, the Lich King didn't break free because of his power, if it was possible, Kil'Jaeden wouldn't have given it to him in the first place. He didn't betray the Legion in a way that the Legion viewed as threatening, and has done it after the fact of invasion without directly attacking demons. My point is, the Lich King has done everything he was designed to do, without fail.

From the perspective of the relationship of the Lich King and Kil'Jaeden; everything went right. Archimonde was the one who screwed up the invasion itself.

I would also like to point out that he could have just done to Azeroth what he did to Draenor. Hell it would have been easier to just get quillboar and centaurs to do what he wanted then to involve the Eastern continent.

No. The Orcs didn't have an order of mages powerful enough to keep Demonic infiltrators at bay, the Orcs did not have knowledge of the legion. Plus, quillboars and centaurs to challenge the Night Elves? The Night Elves essentially were the mightiest military power on Kalimdor, and were watchful another demonic infiltration on their side of the world. The Burning Legion needed an actual army to attack them successfully, which the Lich King successfully engineered while wiping out Lordaeron and the High Elves. Not to mention an Orc styled army already failed in Azeroth. Why try the same with weaker species who are under the shadow of a very powerful enemy?

This raises the question of what Kil'Jaeden was doing during the Mount Hyjal debacle. Given that Archimonde wasn't the greatest mind and that he had failed hard once before you'd think Kil would have been doing something.

I'd also like to point out the Legion fell for the same trick twice. "They would never destroy their source of magic! OH SHI-"

Kil'Jaeden doesn't directly involve himself in invasions. No need to send two demonlords when one can suffice. Plus he was the other half of the Burning Legion's leadership (Sargeras is MIA); no need to risk it all again. Granted, if Kil'Jaeden led the invasion himself (or was at least present), they would have succeeded. However, Archimode is a brute, holds roughly the same authority as Kil'Jaeden, and it *is* his responsibility to carry out the invasion. Kil'Jaeden's job is to prepare the target world for it.

As for the Legion falling for the same trick twice; well, not exactly. The first time, they directly disrupted Sargeras's summoning. The second time, they simply put down a mine of sorts. Different methods, different results. But I must agree that the fact the Legion failed invading the same world twice demonstrates their weakness, if not military, then over cohesion and planning. Invincible antagonists are no fun. Having a powerhungry brute lead an invasion isn't the best of solutions when the inhabitants prove to be strong.

He could have tried to pull a Sargeras and been like "soul portion go become the Lich king" or he could have used one of the other shaman who wasn't Ner'zhul, or he could have just used dreadlords, or he could have limited the Lich King's power to begin with, but he didn't do those things.

Pulling a Sargeras is dangerous, expected, defend able against, and not his style. Also, I doubt that he can just rip a portion of himself off and have it "become the Lich King."

Using another shaman? What other shaman? Ner'Zhul was the best among them, Ner'Zhul was bullied into submission, and the Dreadlords were used to successfully keep the Lich King in line. The nature and scope of the Lich King's power was essential to his mission and was NOT the downfall of the Legion. You keep acting as if Kil'Jaeden made a major mistake with the Lich King. He didn't. If Archimonde carried out his invasion properly, if he didn't allow Illidain to slay Tichondrius and consume the Skull of Gul'Dan, the Lich King would have been safe by Kil'Jaeden's side as his new favorite toy to invade worlds with.

The Boyce

2008-08-17, 09:02 PM

See the problem is that Kil'Jaeden did fail with the Lich King and the Invasion as a whole in several ways:

1. Allowing the Lich King to aid in the defense of Azeroth (Death of strategist, loss of Skull)

2. Not placing limits on what the Lich King could and could not do. (Making it possible to fuse with Arthas or anyone for that matter, not the best idea)

3. Not properly preparing Azeroth (He really weakened the whole Night elf civilization with all that.... oh wait he didn't do anything, and no Cenarius doesn't count that was after the Invasion began)

4. Letting the "idiot" lead the invasion (Which ties in with the next one)

5. Underestimating the **** out of the defenders of Azeroth (They beat Archimonde once before, they couldn't possibly do that...well damn)

That being said Kil still seems to have far better plans than Sarg does in the long run.

konfeta

2008-08-17, 09:24 PM

1. Not his fault. Archimonde was suppose to hand over the Frozen Throne to Kil'Jaeden at the beginning of the invasion. Instead, Archimonde simply brushed aside the Lich King as a non-factor and went ahead with his invasion. Next, the actual losses were inflicted by Illidain - the Lich King sneaked a little information in. This was a subtle move, done after the fact when the Lich King was essentially made a magical and physical irrelevancy. Also, consider that Tichondrius's death was not fatal to the Legion's plans. Archimode could have still easily prevented the disaster. Mistakes were all made by Archimonde, not Kil'Jaeden. Remember, Kil'Jaeden had no control over Archimonde's actions, and they had no reason to suspect the invasion would catastrophically fail and result in the Lich King being out of the reach of the demons.

2. Patently false. The Lich King had very real limits. His massive psychic power was directly bound to his prison, and he started losing it with the damage to the throne. The current Lich King/Arthas fusion is significantly weaker than the original Lich King as far as the powers granted by Kil'Jaeden go. Ner'Zhul has used the powers granted to him to accomplish the Legion's goals, but those were essentially useless outside of it.

Also, I doubt Kil'Jaeden would have been able to place such a specific block on Ner'Zhul, nor he needed too. Remember, if Archimonde didn't screw up twice (return the Throne, fail the invasion), the Lich King's ability to fuse with anthing woulda been irrelevant.

3. He annihilated Lordaeron, the High Elves, and Dalaran. This allowed the Burning Legion to bring in a full invasion force. How is that a failure? The Night Elves were military crushed under the combined might of the Burning Legion and the Scourge. Remember, the invasion itself was a success - the Night Elves and their allies were physically powerless to actually stop it with their military. Their victory came through essentially a gambit and Archimonde's overconfidence. How, again, is this Kil'Jaeden's failure?

4. The idiot, as demonstrably moronic he was, was his equal in power and the guy who actually is in charge of invasions. He couldn't just go "Yo, Archimonde, I know we just demolished half of Azeroth and gathered a tremendous undead army, but could you let me go ahead and lead the invasion? I know you totally want to drain the world of it's magic, and that it's your job to actually invade it, but pretty please?"

5. They underestimated their resourcefulness, not power. Azeroth, as far as armies go, was finished. Besides, he may have very well hinted to Archimonde to watch for that kind of trap. Archimonde is entirely out of Kil'Jaeden's hands.

Talkkno

2008-08-17, 09:26 PM

Anyone think a Solar from Exalted could beat Asmodeus?

ArlEammon

2008-08-17, 09:35 PM

Solars are as powerful as greater deities, so kind of.

It would probably take a powerful single one or a few or even several normal Solars.

The Boyce

2008-08-17, 10:14 PM

1. Is there a source for that part of the plan? Because I don't remember it, but it has been a bit since I campaigned it up. Arthas was also the LK's most powerful agent, I do believe. So keeping track of him should have been some sort of priority. And given his level of intellect and what happened last time Kil had every reason to suspect that the invasion would fail and plan for it.

2. He actually did the hole block of ice bit because he didn't want Ner'zhul to have a physical body, but the he messed up by making it armor inside the ice instead of, say a blanket or bar of soap.

And I'm actually uncertain of whether or not LK is weaker now, it hasn't really been brought up. I think the crux of our disagreement is I expect a Magnificent Bastard level of scheming out of the Brains behind the Burning Legion.

3. He sort of left the Dwarves/Kingdom of Azeroth free as well as the entire western continent untouched forcing the Burning Legion to contend with the Orcs/Nelfs. And I have the feeling they could have crushed Lordaeron/Quelthalas without the preparation by the Scourge.

4. Kil was actually considered the strongest of the Three leaders (Velen/Arch/Kil) both magically and intectually so he could have you know gotten himself summoned after Archimonde did. Then he could have watched the World Tree go boom and then led a second demonic force in to the drain the world of magic.

5. Again we disagree here because of my MB expectations but manipulating others, even the Left Hand of S should be withing reason for one called the Deceiver

Bago!!!

2008-08-17, 10:25 PM

Can I just point out that Archimonde was not an idiot. He was pretty smart. He had to have been to be the leader of the offensive front of the legion. Course, he had a great huge ego, and failed to leave it out of the equation. His ego was the problem, which lead to his failure at the battle of Hyjal. Just saying!

Innis Cabal

2008-08-17, 10:32 PM

Then no, he wasnt that smart.

Bago!!!

2008-08-17, 10:35 PM

No, he was. He just had a great flaw that many people let get in the way. Julius, Achilles, Napoleon? No one considers them stupid, do they?

freerangetroll

2008-08-17, 10:37 PM

No, he was. He just had a great flaw that many people let get in the way. Julius, Achilles, Napoleon? No one considers them stupid, do they?

Depends on who you ask Bago. As far as the three go? No, yes, he had his moments. :)

Well, I'm throwing in the towel on this one. Big A wins if he's serpent god backed.

Nice debate by the way to everyone involved.

Innis Cabal

2008-08-17, 10:46 PM

THank you, and nice debating with you. Very civil, very apperciated.

Poison_Fish

2008-08-17, 10:48 PM

Anyone think a Solar from Exalted could beat Asmodeus?

What's echoed from above, even worse if he faces a zenith, who flexes/looks at him and Asmodeus's soul lights on holy fire.

But a generally powerful one would be needed.

Swok

2008-08-17, 10:52 PM

I don't know much about Exalted, but isn't there an attack form that involves calligraphy?

Because now I can't get the thought of Sargeras Anyone being exploded by a scribe out of my head.

Poison_Fish

2008-08-17, 10:56 PM

I don't know much about Exalted, but isn't there an attack form that involves calligraphy?

Because now I can't get the thought of Sargeras Anyone being exploded by a scribe out of my head.

There are over 9000 ways to kill someone with a calligraphy pen, if you ask me.

Most of em are non-cannon, but I can't remember if there were any specific ones from scroll of the monk that used calligraphy.

Swok

2008-08-17, 11:00 PM

There are over 9000 ways to kill someone with a calligraphy pen, if you ask me.

Speaking of over 9000, I wonder what the result of a fight between a Solar and someone out of DBZ would be...

My complete lack of knowledge about both sources makes me hideously disqualified to think about the (most likely flashy) results.

Innis Cabal

2008-08-17, 11:15 PM

Solar Wins, hands down

The Boyce

2008-08-17, 11:22 PM

I have the sudden image of a really big explosive runes spell

konfeta

2008-08-18, 12:04 AM

1. http://www.wowwiki.com/Lich_King#Path_of_the_Damned

2. Yes, not having a body and chained to a bunch of enchanted armor under a collection of Dreadlord guards counts as a prison. He was essentially immobile, and could have been killed as soon as the Legion realized he was up to something dangerous.

Also, you don't bind powerful spirits to soap. In Warcraftverse, the most powerful the being, the more powerful it's avatar/anchor must be. This is a reason why Sargeras failed to re-appear - his use of an avatar inside Azeroth and subsequent banishment either destroyed or disconnected him from his body; leaving him as a spirit floating in the Twisting Nether. In the Lich King's case, they bound his spirit and tremendous power to the armor located inside the Throne.

And he is definitely weaker. He may have grown stronger in many regards; but his control over undead is pathetic compared to his previous state. I mean, for Christ's sake, the whole idea behind letting players play as Death Knights is that he is much weaker at exerting direct control over his minions. Death Knights. His supposed champions.

3. Dwarves are isolationist and weren't a threat to the Burning Legion's invasion. Azeroth was still in total shambles from the Orcish Wars. The Burning Legion needed a loyal and powerful summoner to get in a Demonlord (Archimonde) to actually commence the invasion in full force.

They wouldn't find such an individual at Kalimdor, so their best bet was Lordaeron. If you remember the Warcraft 3 campaign, the entire Undead portion of it revolved around the Scourge wiping out all possible interlopers to the invasion; securing a Summoner (Kel'Thuzad), and actually summoning in Archimonde.

So your feeling is wrong. Lordaeron (and the human kingdoms as a whole) was protected by the likes of Order of Tirisfal and agents of the Kirin Tor which successfully prevented a demonic invasion for a long time. That's why they needed the Orcs, and then the Scourge - to annihilate the resistance that could have prevented the act of invasion itself.

4. Why? You act as if the Night Elven trap for Archimonde was super obvious and common sense. The Night Elves never did anything of the like during War of the Ancients - the well's explosion wasn't a trap; it was a disruption of summoning Sargeras. There was little reason for the Legion to suspect that they would suffer a defeat in form of a killed Demonlord. Besides, him entering Azeroth would arouse Archimonde's suspicion and probably immediately set them against each other due to Archimonde's desire to drain the tree for himself. Kil'Jaeden doesn't do invasions. Archimonde normally carries that out perfectly.

5. The Burning Legion wasn't exactly in position to manipulate at the level of other masterminds. They are essentially an alien invasion force. From that side, though, I agree that their masterminding isn't that good. Their manipulation relies on power hungry individuals and magic; not pure genius.

GoC

2008-08-18, 06:38 AM

I don't care to look at those absurd thought experiments Tippy did for whatever ungodly reason. My point was if Asmodeus can do all the same tricks (And believe me, he can) as a Tippy wizard but started off inherently better, which one do you really believe is more powerful or at least has the advantage? :smallamused: What? You think only a PC wizard can do those things?

This is a classic debate on these forums and arises due to the inconsistency in the D&D universe.
Tippy wizards can do things that Asmodeus clearly cannot (or he would have done so beforehand). In theory he could do all the same tricks but as he doesn't we can assume there is something preventing him.
Anyway, Asmodeus is defined by his fluff while Tippy wizards are defined by their mechanics. Advantage: Tippy.

Invulnerability against mortal weapons, and limited immunity to immortal ones (the axe created by Cenarius for Broxigar was able to wound him, but not to any great effect), while the powers of the Demon Soul had no effect) as well as complete immunity to fire and fel magics.

I find it strange how people always forget a 6th level spell called Ironguard that does exactly this.:smallconfused:

Callos_DeTerran

2008-08-18, 10:29 AM

This is a classic debate on these forums and arises due to the inconsistency in the D&D universe.
Tippy wizards can do things that Asmodeus clearly cannot (or he would have done so beforehand). In theory he could do all the same tricks but as he doesn't we can assume there is something preventing him.
Anyway, Asmodeus is defined by his fluff while Tippy wizards are defined by their mechanics. Advantage: Tippy.

This isn't a debate for here, nor do I particularly care to get into this since it's a stupid argument, but I can't help but point this out. Asmodeus is restricted by plot and a DM's usage of his abilities, hence an inherent limit is going to be used that'll never allow Asmodeus to be used to his full potential. A Tippy wizard isn't restricted by that, just how much fun for other players the wizard potentially wants to ruin and how lenient a DM they have who'll let them go on with such shenanigans until telling them to stop. At that point a Tippy-wizard player will likely call the DM a fun-ruiner himself or a bad DM for not giving the players enough freedom.

The fluff isn't the problem, it's that a player doesn't run Asmodeus and players don't think they should lose most of the time and a DM is supposed to make it fun for everyone.

Steven the Lich

2008-08-18, 11:45 AM

It is clear that the CR given for Sargeras is his avatar. Why? Him stepping into the world in true form means ultimate doom. If Elune has a CR of 93 or something, and could defeat Sargeras, why the heck would it be considered game over? He is also described as the strongest Titan, so I doubt that any titan would be around his CR level, especially since he has grown even more powerful from draining the energies of destroyed worlds. The RPG is not the best source of canon anyway.

I rather agree with Bago, Archimonde wasn't stupid, but he had a tremendous ego. Malfurion says that his overconfidence will make him blind to their trap... Not his stupidity. Archimonde had a lot of minions at his disposal, and it was pointless for the defenders to stop him, they could only hold him back for a limited time. How could he suspect that the Night Elves would place a trap of such devastation.
I also think that some people here are underestimating the cost of Tichondrius' death. He was the legion's strategist, and perhaps its best next to Kil'Jaeden (Possibly better). If he wasn't important, I doubt that the LK would send Arthas to entice Illidan to kill him. It could be that with Tichondrius, Archimonde would not have fell for such a trap.
I also would like to point out that the LK could have been very well robbed of his power, though control over Arthas and Kel'Thuzad remained. Tichondrius was given control of the Scourge, and after his death, Anetheron was too (He is another Dreadlord who took Tichondrius' position after his death) the leader of the Scourge (But died at the battle of Hyjal). It could be that the powers went back to the LK by default, as the presumed leader of the Nathrezim after Anetherons death was left behind in the Twisting Nether.

Illidans death was quite disappointing, but he may as yet have a role to play in future events, despite his death.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Cerberus

There goes one of our best debaters...

I looked up the demons, and found a list of traits for demons. The traits are horns, hooves, scales, bat wings, fangs, red skin, and flames. Guess what? Sargeras has every one... Since he has bat wings, its possible he has flight.

It should be noted that the Burning Legion have several members capable of turning magic against its wielders, some that can drain it.

Asmodeus was tossed down by the gods because he won against them... Am I the only one who notices that makes no sense whatsoever? Tell me, did he know he would get tossed down to hell if he won against the gods, or is that something left out of the equation? Any way you look at it, I consider it a serious loss and demotion. Seriously, going from Heaven to Hell? That isn't a positive on Asmodeus' resume... Its a huge negative.
In fact, can you imagine the interview?
"What is your current position in the planes?"
"Yeah, well... I'm in the ninth hell, at the bottom."
"What? Last time I checked, there were only seven hells."
"Yeah, I won a poker game against the gods, I kinda cheated, and they tossed me down. My fall created two new hells."
"Ouch. Well, sorry, but I don't think you will be able to fit in with the other workers here."
"Why not?"
"Because... Well... To put it lightly, you are an evil overlord of hell, with the command of thousands of evil legions of devils, not to mention that the gods tossed you out of heaven. In fact... You shouldn't be on the Material plane right now."
"... Oh right... Oh... Oh sh..." *POOF* /Banished/

Don't say it is a win for Asmodeus... Its a serious lose. Besides, if he was involved in a campaign, the heroes would win.
Also, did he ever take on all the armies of hell by himself, with no minions by his side? Thing with Blizzards prime evils, they are made epic and unmatched almost, and at one point, they always take on hell by themselves.

Callos_DeTerran

2008-08-18, 01:07 PM

Asmodeus was tossed down by the gods because he won against them... Am I the only one who notices that makes no sense whatsoever? Tell me, did he know he would get tossed down to hell if he won against the gods, or is that something left out of the equation? Any way you look at it, I consider it a serious loss and demotion. Seriously, going from Heaven to Hell? That isn't a positive on Asmodeus' resume... Its a huge negative.

Don't say it is a win for Asmodeus... Its a serious lose. Besides, if he was involved in a campaign, the heroes would win.

I cut out the little dialogue because it doesn't truly have much point, but I need to address this one. Being thrown into Baator was not a lose for Asmodeus because he chose Baator instead of Heaven and made the Hells what they are (Your referencing the Tyrants of the Nine Hells Asmodeus, so that's the one I'm talking about.). It just used to be a featureless plane. Asmodeus tricked the gods into weening him and his followers off of their masters (Otherwise the gods could shut off the flow), giving him permission to take this energy from souls, and free reign of Baator with even deities being subject to his whims there. Throwing him out was the only response they could reasonably make. Did he expect to be banished to Baator? Most definitely. Did he expect the violent expulsion? That's debatable. Point is the man (in that story) hoodwinked all the gods into giving him his own domain and freedom to act as he saw fit in a manner they cannot take back from him. The wounds are a setback but it was an over all win.

Steven the Lich

2008-08-18, 02:49 PM

Innis Cabal

2008-08-18, 02:58 PM

freerangetroll

2008-08-18, 03:04 PM

First of all, there are no demons in the Nine Hells

Second, according to many who have psoted here there are things stronger then Sag. The Elder Gods or some such. Wowverse is not particuarly spectacular in its fluff from what ive seen, and call it standard fantasy fair. Nothing more, nothing less. But even in saying that(before you get offended and say "But D&D isnt great either") your fluff is wrong entierly on the Big A. There are things stronger then his avatar. There are things equal to him in strength as his Serpent body. Lady of Pain, and the rest of the "alignment lords" as some have dubbed them, are as powerful. Asmodeus is the "Alignment Lord" of Evil. So powerful it took the rest of Heaven to cast him down after lossing against him.

Not going to argue for Sargeras anymore, but you are wrong on one point. The elder gods are not stronger then Sargeras or any of the titans. They are an entirely Azerothan localized set of "deities" that got thumped and locked in prisons. If anything I'd put the elder gods on the Kil'jaeden/Archimonde tier of power. But far lesser then the titans.

Edit: Sargeras was never meant to be the big bad of the Warcraft setting. However after the massive popularity of the first RTS Blizzard started retconning the unholy heck out of the lore. Sargeras eventually became -the- evil of the cosmos and his power was ratcheted up massively.

Callos_DeTerran

2008-08-18, 03:25 PM

Question is, is it truly and entirely his domain? What about all the demons running about, the other Lords of Hell who are just waiting to overthrow Asmodeus? He doesn't have absolute control over his own domain. It could very well be debatable whether or not that it can be considered his own domain. (One two three, DOMAIN!... four)
If he was such a great manipulator, with plans within plans, wouldn't he have found a way to get there... say... without creating two new layers with his fall, and getting injured and to this day is licking his wounds? If he was the genius that you claim him to be, surely he would have found a less painful way.

Yes, it truly is his domain. I can say that with no small amount of certainty. Even with the other Lords of Hell (even WotC version), powerful devils, evil gods inhabiting Hell, and the demons battering at the gates Asmodeus has never been in true jeopardy for control of the Nine Hells. Not once. And, since this argument pertains entirely to WotC Asmodeus, up to a certain point, there was absolutely nothing he could do when the gods decided to throw a temper tantrum and cast him down. Why? Cause the gods may not have same level of intellect but they outclass WotC Asmodeus in raw power. More importantly that was just feeble, and it was feeble, lashing out since they could do nothing against Asmodeus since he technically (and Asmodeus loves using that word) didn't do anything he wasn't supposed to. Could he have gotten down there with out being injured? Like I said, debatable...it happened because the gods called Asmodeus to Heaven to ask what the hell he was doing down there and when he answered they cast him down, he WAS already down there before that. Despite the fact he tricked the gods themselves, the fact remains that the way he did it was flawless and the god's retaliation looks far more like an incompetent master beating a servant with a flawless service record for doing what he was supposed to do. He mad utter fools of them.

In any case, there are bigger things than him in the D&D universe. Whereas Sargeras is the biggest thing in the Warcraft universe, which in my opinion is quite bigger than the D&D universe. And Warcraft has a ton of magic just flying about, the world of Azeroth is filled with magic, there is so much magic that Malygos, the Blue Dragon Aspect, declared war on mages and such in hopes to prevent all the rampant magic from attracting the Burning Legion. Its that magical! If I had a gold coin for every magical item that one could find in WoW... I'd reach maximum!
And no one in the Warcraft universe is stronger than Sargeras... No one. Asmodeus is not the mightiest being, and I think the Titans are on par with D&D deities. I'm not saying mightiest evil in one universe can defeat any less than the mightiest in another. Given the circumstances, though, we can presume that Sargeras is a great deal stronger than Asmodeus (And has the advantage in combat, since Asmodeus is injured which would hinder him, and prompt an obvious target for Sargeras). However, Asmodeus has brains, so that much at least works for him. Though it is questionable that if he is to materialize in some place at random with sargeras (As Freerangetroll asked a time ago), if he would be able to use his mind to think a way out of the path of sargeras' sword. As far as his army goes, if Sargeras can't beat it, he gets his own, which ranges into the billions, and more with human followers, likely topping whatever Asmodeus has.

It's this exact argument that had me asking for clarification on which version of Asmodeus it was that was being fought. The one you just described (and accurately at that) is the Tyrants of the Nine Hells Asmodeus and, as much as I hate to admit it, he would be crushed by Sargeras in a one on one fight and only being able to put up a good fight when it comes to armies (And by good I do mean good). Most of the valid points above simply don't apply to DF Asmodeus who've I've been told to use by some people arguing for Sargeras. He personally is not wounded, that's the Serpent himself and Asmodeus is simply an avatar. There is nothing stronger then him, except perhaps Venom Font-Imbued/Non-imbued Demogorgon but I'm not sure about that myself, and if there is then it doesn't top the Serpent who would enact, likely, revenge for the destruction of it's disguise. And there is very likely nothing more powerful then the Serpent since the other two pieces that COULD rival it are likely dead from what I've heard.

As for freeranges idea of just 'dropping them off to battle' it's...too amorphous of an idea. Which version is it for one? And for that matter why is Asmodeus's greatest advantage (planning ahead) stripped away? He's a damn smart being but a straight up unexpected brawl is simply not what he does, he cheats, he fights under-handed, and smart but without planning ahead it's more difficult to do those off the top of your head in mid battle.

Eldan

2008-08-18, 03:33 PM

There is nothing stronger then him, except perhaps Venom Font-Imbued/Non-imbued Demogorgon but I'm not sure about that myself, and if there is then it doesn't top the Serpent who would enact, likely, revenge for the destruction of it's disguise.

Don't forget Orcus with the Last Word. He's up there too.

Callos_DeTerran

2008-08-18, 03:37 PM

Don't forget Orcus with the Last Word. He's up there too.

I'd say that but I don't know if Orcus has the Last Word in DF or if it even works the same way. I know, current, WotC Orcus still has the Last Word but it can't effect unique beings or gods anymore so that's a bust in that regard. Knowing Dice Freaks though the Last Word probably still exists but as an Epic Spell rather then an ability, probably an epic spell that only Orcus knows.

Swok

2008-08-18, 03:40 PM

Not going to argue for Sargeras anymore, but you are wrong on one point. The elder gods are not stronger then Sargeras or any of the titans. They are an entirely Azerothan localized set of "deities" that got thumped and locked in prisons. If anything I'd put the elder gods on the Kil'jaeden/Archimonde tier of power. But far lesser then the titans.

If the Old Gods were that much weaker they would be dead, gone and not imprisoned. The entire reason they're imprisoned is precisely because the titans barely could imprison them when they fought them for Azeroth.

Swok

2008-08-18, 03:46 PM

I'd say that but I don't know if Orcus has the Last Word in DF or if it even works the same way. I know, current, WotC Orcus still has the Last Word but it can't effect unique beings or gods anymore so that's a bust in that regard. Knowing Dice Freaks though the Last Word probably still exists but as an Epic Spell rather then an ability, probably an epic spell that only Orcus knows.

Orcus still has the last word, with the limitations you mentioned, and the caveat that it can kill him if it doesn't work (oh, it's resistable too.)

Also, wasn't it Tenebrous who had the last word, not Orcus? Orcus just (>.< I can't believe I just said that, only the Wand of Orcus) had his Wand of poking things and killing them.

freerangetroll

2008-08-18, 04:01 PM

If the Old Gods were that much weaker they would be dead, gone and not imprisoned. The entire reason they're imprisoned is precisely because the titans barely could imprison them when they fought them for Azeroth.

Just did a quick wow wiki/official blizzard lore page/Warcraft tabletop read through, and it never says the Old gods even put up a good fight. They sent their Lieutenants, ragnaros etc, and after the titans obliterated them they wen and tore open the Old gods strongholds and imprisoned them. Why they imprisoned them instead of destroying I have no clue. But none of the text indicates they had troubles with the Old Gods.

Also Sargeras had already broken with the lpantheon at this point. So the most powerful of the titans wasn't involved and they banished the Old Gods and their attendants without any losses.

Mr. Scaly

2008-08-18, 04:15 PM

freerangetroll

2008-08-18, 04:19 PM

I get back from vacation and find this monster sitting in the forums...

This is a hard fight to predict. The thing is, the way that Azzy schemes and plots even if Sargeras beat him in whatever incarnation he had that defeat would be done in such a way to further his overall plans. Is that a defeat then?

I think the consensus is that if it is the Dice Freaks Asmo then he wins. If its one of the other iterations then Sargeras beats him down or its a fairly even fight depending on which one.

Anteros

2008-08-18, 04:24 PM

Just pointing out that it's ussually far easier to kill someone than it is to capture them.

Steven the Lich

2008-08-18, 04:28 PM

If they had Sargeras, the Old Gods would be history then.

You know what, I have absoleutle no idea what Asmodeus we are even using. However, your admittance that Sargeras can kick the snot out of Asmodeus in one on one without an army, and even with an armies, I'm sure that Sargeras can defeat Asmodeus. Now I would like to know more about the Snake Asmodeus thing, because I can't really say who wins there.

freerangetroll

2008-08-18, 04:32 PM

Basically steven, the Dice freaks version is a CR 99 avatar of a being that encircles the world and was (may be wrong here) one of three pieces that broke apart from a really major league powerful over deity.

Callos_DeTerran

2008-08-18, 06:29 PM

You know what, I have absoleutle no idea what Asmodeus we are even using. However, your admittance that Sargeras can kick the snot out of Asmodeus in one on one without an army, and even with an armies, I'm sure that Sargeras can defeat Asmodeus. Now I would like to know more about the Snake Asmodeus thing, because I can't really say who wins there.

Yeah, I'm not sure either it's why I'm trying to cover arguments for each version of Asmodeus that we're using. Admittedly, any version but the DF version can not stand in actual combat against Sargeras and at that point the armies become irrevalent.

As for the Serpent I'll give you a quick overview though we can't really bring it in either. Turns out that Asmodeus (CR 83, I looked it up the other night because I thought it was 99 too) is merely the second avatar of a being known as the Serpent. What's the Serpent? This takes a bit of background so bear with me. At the creation of multiverse there wasn't anything but chaos and those who dwelled in it like demons and so forth. Eventually (people aren't sure how or where) an entity (Composed of the Serpent, the aspect of Lawful Good, and the aspect of Lawful Neutral) of pure Order showed up and began to put everything into Order and Laws and all that fun stuff. And it was working wonderfully too until the three seperate 'pieces' of that being began to argue about how Order should be used in the new fledgling multiverse. Good wanted to help the weak, Neutral wanted impartiality, Serpent wanted rigid hiearchies of which the strong dominated. None of them agreed but they all tried to enforce their view of Order on the multiverse until they ended up shattering out of the entity they had been. The Lawful Good's body became the Seven Mounting Heavens. The Neutral's became the Clockwork Gears of Mechanus, and the Serpent spiraled down and created the Nine Hells of Perdition along the way. Once there the Arch-devils and 'original' devils sprouted from it's blood and began to set themselves up as rulers. Eventually the Serpent recovered enough to see what was going on and set up a Satan avatar and set it among it's 'children' to rule. The Hells were put into the Serpent's version of Order with it's avatar on top. Eventually disquiet, rebellions, and a Reckoning later, the Serpent created a new avatar, Asmodeus, who disposed of Satan so the other devils would be content they were under 'new' management and the Serpent remains hidden from all but the Lord of the Eighth who suspects there's more beyond Asmodeus.

That's it in a nutshell without pretty language. The Serpent may or may not be fully healed by now but it's a creature of immense if not unlimited power and size. The example of one of it's scales being as large as a full on world? That wasn't a joke, that's the size and thickness of a scale but otherwise...nothing much is really given about it. Players aren't supposed to fight the Serpent, it's impossible. It's 'insta-TPK' to try and that'd be after battling through all the Nine Hells and essentially butchering everything that moves in them. It's said that when Asmodeus completes his 'Armageddon' (that's simply the best word for it, he doesn't actually plan to destroy everything) the Serpent will encoil the multiverse and squeeze everything good out of it and leave every creature naught but it's hopeless despair-driven slaves.

Oddly enough the Serpent is actually mentioned in every version of Asmodeus but nobody is ever to clear on what it is or what it does. Vecna states he got all his REALLY good ideas from the Serpent but people don't know if he's serious or that's simply an insane delusion. It's theorized the Serpent is a living incarnation of magic and part of a group called the Ancient Ones which is chock-full of beings who 'aren't meant to be fought'. Note the Ancient Ones don't actually exist in DF-verse, this'd be every other setting.

Innis Cabal

2008-08-18, 06:42 PM

Its also not 100% certain they are the same thing. If Die Vecna Die is any indication, its not though.

ArlEammon

2008-08-18, 07:27 PM

Hm. If a scale of Asmodeus is as large as a planet, I can see Sargeras and Asmodeus being equals in all respects.

Except maybe invasion and leading armies.

hamishspence

2008-08-21, 02:32 PM

I got impression Ouroborus the two-headed World Serpent was the entity that became the various serpent deities, including Jazirian and Ahriman, who clashed (jazirian won, sending Ahriman plummeting into Baator, where he became Asmodeus.

But since then, the Tyrants of the Nine Hells story, with pact Primaeval, superseded it.

4th ed FRCG says the "ancient deity turned archdevil schemed for millenia, and finally reclaimed his divinity in the Spellplague when Azuth and Dweomerheart got sent into 9 Hells": killed Azuth, took divinity, hurled the Abyss into the Elemental Plane of Chaos.

This is, however, Forgotten Realms version of Asmodeus.

xirr2000

2011-02-22, 04:18 PM

He didn't lose everytime he invaded. He's never really been on the world before. His minions have failed him.

Thats his avatar that got killed and its from the RPG book. And the plan almost succeeded, if not for Medhiv's childhood friend who killed him.

Right, normal campeign bad guy who, if he ever really gets onto the world, would destroy it without any trouble. CR ?????? since he could defeat all his minions at once which include cr 55 and 50 and so on and so forth. Certainly sounds normal. :smallwink:

And don't just skim it.

Ya know, I've never really understood why Sargeras can't seem to set foot on Azeroth in the first place? Didn't he help create it? Isn't he like an order of magnitude more powerful than even other titans? Why all these silly plots to gain access to a world he helped create? When did some barrier come up that prevented anything from setting foot on Azeroth? Clearly I missed something from all the online info.

However, it seems clear to me that Asmodeus IS Sargeras, he's fooled you all. Again. No doubt rigged the betting pool and set up this farce of a contest to begin with. Man, he's good......

Axolotl

2011-02-22, 05:38 PM

Going by the stats I own Sargeras is CR 73 while Asmodeus is only CR 32 which would certainly means Sargeras has the edge mechanically.

But those stats were different authors and based on different assumptions of power levels. Looking at it fluff wise, it really isn't even close I mean Sargeras simply isn't on the same scale as Asmodeus. I mean Sargeras is a bad dude and everything but Asmodeus is literally the incarnation of everything wrong with the world. Sargeras conquers planets but Asmodeus fights wars that define the nature of reality and is stated to have armies capable of fighting larger ones. At the end of the day Sargeras is just another great big demon overlords and while he's certainly a very big and powerful one, Asmodeus is something fundementally more than that.

Zaydos

2011-02-22, 06:31 PM

Also remember 3.5 made it clear that the stats for Asmodeus are those of a very powerful aspect not of Asmodeus himself (and retconned the BoVD stats to be simply a still more powerful aspect).

Really, though, if it came to a direct show down of power vs power 3.5 Asmodeus loses. Note that 3.5 Asmodeus is not the source of all evil (that was 2e and retconned before being reintroduced in 4e) but simply a very powerful angel tasked with fighting demons that fell to corruption when using their powers to augment his own to better fight them.

But it wouldn't be power versus power. Asmodeus, if he deemed Sargeras a threat (which he would), would not fight the titan directly he'd get the gods to do it. If Asmodeus is against Sargeras you can bet the LE gods are, and the good gods would be, and even the CE probably would be. So you either have a bunch of gods or a bunch of heroes fighting him. Asmodeus wouldn't have to lift a finger.

And now I feel dirty... siding with Asmodeus (really he's over-hyped). The thing is with Sargeras being an outsider to the cosmology Asmodeus would win.

Traab

2011-02-22, 07:51 PM

Zaydos

2011-02-22, 08:00 PM

But then, sargeras wouldnt be showing up all by himself either if we include all the gods and armies asmodeus could bring into play. He would bring the entire population of billions upon billions of worlds and swarm under the opposition. After all, so far as I can tell, wether its d&d or WoW, even gods can be killed.

At which point its a war in heavens. Remember the planes are infinite and 3.X abandoned the definite numbers of devils that 2e and earlier used. Also if the 3.X fluff is to be believed Asmodeus is just waiting for an excuse to ally with the Abyss and this would be such an excuse, and the Abyss has infinite planes and infinite demons. Also despite his legions he's being held off/beaten by a pair of worlds... D&D has a lot nastier in its multiverse than Azeroth.

And D&D gods can only be killed by an overdeity (which Sargeras isn't), a god of higher ranking (which I'm willing to give Sargeras greater deity status despite his stats not including it), or by killing off all their worshipers (exemption might be FR; I'm not up on its fluff).

Traab

2011-02-22, 08:42 PM

At which point its a war in heavens. Remember the planes are infinite and 3.X abandoned the definite numbers of devils that 2e and earlier used. Also if the 3.X fluff is to be believed Asmodeus is just waiting for an excuse to ally with the Abyss and this would be such an excuse, and the Abyss has infinite planes and infinite demons. Also despite his legions he's being held off/beaten by a pair of worlds... D&D has a lot nastier in its multiverse than Azeroth.

And D&D gods can only be killed by an overdeity (which Sargeras isn't), a god of higher ranking (which I'm willing to give Sargeras greater deity status despite his stats not including it), or by killing off all their worshipers (exemption might be FR; I'm not up on its fluff).

Definately up there with greater deity levels considering that he is a titan, and the strongest of them all. The titans being capable of defeating, killing, and/or imprisoning gods by themselves. But all this is reaching past the point of the thread which is point blank just asmodeus versus sargeras in a one on one fight. So ignoring armies, and convincing other gods to fight sargeras for him, who would win? I honestly cant say for sure, because I dont know much about asmodeus, and sargeras has never really been in a fight except for far back ancient days that are nothing but legends. So no details on his actual skills. Just "very very powerful"

Eldan

2011-02-22, 09:02 PM

Well, D&D had titans too. They are down in Tartaros now, imprisoned by the gods, Greek style :smallwink:

Querzis

2011-02-22, 11:33 PM

Ya know, I've never really understood why Sargeras can't seem to set foot on Azeroth in the first place? Didn't he help create it? Isn't he like an order of magnitude more powerful than even other titans? Why all these silly plots to gain access to a world he helped create? When did some barrier come up that prevented anything from setting foot on Azeroth?

Firstly, the Titans didnt really create Azeroth. When they arrived Azeroth already existed but it was overun by the Old Gods and their minions so they killed the Old gods or imprisonned them and then they created the dragons, shaped the world to be less chaotic and created a few other things like the dwarves. Secondly, yes he is the most powerful Titan but thats the whole point. Warcraft actually go the opposite way of D&D on this: The more powerful someone is, the harder it is to move them through portal. The portal has to be almost as powerful as the beings you are trying to get through it. Either way, Sargeras is actually very unlikely to have been one of the Titan who fought on Azeroth. His job was to hunt down demons, not help create world.

Now of course, Sargeras can just fly through space but hes very unlikely to ever find Azeroth that way and, more importantly, hes kinda trying to not force a fight against the other titans. Thats one of the rare thing we know about him, hes always looking for ways to isolate a titan and kill him in a solo fight but he really doesnt want to end up with all the other titans after him. If all the other titans fight him at the same time, they would most likely defeat him even if hes the most powerful. We know 13 named titans other then Sargeras and theres probably dozens more maybe even hundred. So going through portals is the best way for him to destroy worlds without getting the attention of other Titans. When going through a portal, he just destroy a world way too fast, the other titans cant really do anything about it. Hes way too vulnerable to an ambush without help from his army if he float through space.

And I actually agree with Traab, theres just wait too many unknown things about Sargeras and Asmodeus to really do a VS fight between them. We never saw both of them in a real fight. Hell, we never even saw the real Sargeras anywhere in the Warcraft games. We just know hes big and powerful enough to make Kil'jaeden and Archimonde look like flea (and, if you believe the artwork, hes big enough to litteraly stab a planet and make ancient dragon look like mosquitos.)

Also, that thread was almost 3 years old. Thats some crazy thread necromancy here.