4e Gestalt!

[JackMage666]

3.5 Gestalt - A fun system when you're lacking players or want to kick up the power level to the semi-extremes!

4e - A fun system that requires you fit every role in a game to be successful - If you're lacking a Leader, you're basically screwed!

So, for these reasons (and boredom) a DM and me came up with some rules for 4e Gestalt. We're currently using them in a simple Arena game, testing them out, and they're working rather well (still need to get power level of enemies down, but from a player standpoint, they work rather well). So here they are!

-At creation, pick 2 Classes.
-You receive all the perks of both classes - Implements, Proficiencies, Class Features.
-Take the higher of the two classes HP and Defense bonuses. These do no stack. For example, a Wizard/Fighter would gain the 16+Constitution HP, and the Defense bonuses of +2 Fort, +2 Will. However, a Wizard/Warlock would only gain 12+Constitution HP, and the Defense Bonuses of +1 Refl, +2 Will.
-You receive all the mandatory skills for both classes (Religion for Clerics, Stealth and Thievery for Rogues, ect.) In addition you take the number of bonus skills from the class with the highest number of bonus skills, and can pick that many skills from both class lists.
-Double the Powers known. You can select powers from both classes as you wish. For example, you know 4 At-Will Powers - You can either take 2 from both classes, 1 from the first class and 3 from the second, or all 4 from the first class and none from the second.
-You receive 2 Paragon Paths at 11th levels, and 2 Epic Destinies at 21st level.

Other rules to be of note -
-Remove all multiclass feats - You already have 2 Classes, you don't need a 3rd.
-Humans receive only 1 bonus At-Will, a total of 5.

Any comments/suggestions?

[Istari]

Well in 4e that might be pretty unbalanced I mean doubling known powers, th dm would have to put in much tougher monsters to compensate, not too high but most likely 2-3 levels higher by my guess.

[expirement10K14]

Wizard/Fighter= Wizard with more HP?

[Mercenary Pen]

but will there be any real need for a wizard/fighter with the swordmage class to be released by the end of the month?

I'm writing some straight 4e-based fanfiction just at the moment, but I may consider using this gestalt system in places, if only to make the main baddies (i.e. the ones written up PC-style) that much more difficult to beat...

[GryffonDurime]

Why do they get double the Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies? 3.5 Gestalt limited you to one Prestige Class at a time, and you're already giving them some pretty big bonuses from doubled powers.

[Shadow_Elf]

I'm not sure if anyone has recognized the destructive potential of a Ranger/Wizard. Twin Strike is compatible with Magic Missile, which @ level 21 would do 16d4 as an at-will power. This could cause many balancing problems. I'm not sure what to do about this mechanic, but I think it needs a bit of work before its balanced/playable. Also, I agree that two Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies is overpowered, but perhaps Paragon Paths or Epic Destinies that had two classes, or at least features from two classes, as prerequisites would be an interesting way to encourage the use of the system?

[JackMage666]

Hmm, the Magic Missile/Twin Strike problem is something that would need specific ruling - Like you use Dex to attack, and only do 2d4 damage (not +Int), treating it considerably more like a real basic attack (Since you normally don't to Dex mod damage with Twin Strike)

The Paragon/Epic thing was just so you didn't randomly get 1 power some levels, but double at others. I like the idea of mixed Paragon classes, but then you'd need to make like 42 new paragon paths (one for each mix of classes), and that'd be ALOT of work. Epic Destinies are good, and I'd think maybe if you could just take one, it'd be fair...

[Erk]

Well in 4e that might be pretty unbalanced I mean doubling known powers, th dm would have to put in much tougher monsters to compensate, not too high but most likely 2-3 levels higher by my guess.

That's gestalt, my friend.

The idea is that you have a smaller play group behaving as a larger one. So this is great for a 2-player group, you'd then give them challenges appropriate to a 3 or 4 player party.

Anyway, my suggestion: do not allow this mingling of selections. The player chooses 2 at-wills from each class, 1 encounter from each, etc. Of course, the human's bonus at-will can be from either class. Otherwise it's too easy to use this just to make a SuperUberUltra wizard and call it a Wizard/Fighter, for example.

For Paragon paths and epic destinies, it seems reasonable to select only one. The characters will still be Hyper-leet by then.

[Ceiling009]

Actually, I think the twin strike/magic missile is a non-problem. Twin Strike says you need a weapon, and magic missile is considered a basic ranged attack, not a ranged weapon. So no problems there, also same with Eldritch blast, it's considered a basic ranged attack, for effect from the Warlord's "get another basic attack" stuff, but it's not a ranged weapon, so you can't use twin strike. On the other hand, two differently magically enhanced handbows are thing of beauty with twin strike.

[JackMage666]

[QUOTE=Erk;4692914
Anyway, my suggestion: do not allow this mingling of selections. The player chooses 2 at-wills from each class, 1 encounter from each, etc. Of course, the human's bonus at-will can be from either class. Otherwise it's too easy to use this just to make a SuperUberUltra wizard and call it a Wizard/Fighter, for example.

For Paragon paths and epic destinies, it seems reasonable to select only one. The characters will still be Hyper-leet by then.[/QUOTE]

Makes sense to me, I was just posting the rules we can up with. This was my DMs suggestion because, as he put it "Some classes just get *poopies!* for powers at some levels."

[Duke of URL]

3.5 Gestalt provides more options, but only the same number of actions. To get a similar (albeit somewhat different) effect in 4e, you sound like you're starting on the right track. Here are my suggestions:


Keep the part about getting the powers from both classes, but lose the ability to select more from one than the other (i.e., 2 at wills from each, not 4 combines from both lists)
Those powers represent the "known" powers; however, like the non-gestalt Wizard's daily power, they choose from the "known" list to fill the normal number of slots for each type of power, e.g. 2 at will powers (3 for humans)
The "ready" list of powers can be changed at any 5 minute rest, or using a new feat (basically ToB's Adaptive Style) can do as a full-round action; once a daily power has been used, swapping a new one in doesn't do any good. (Ditto for an encounter power within an encounter.)
I'm OK doubling up paragon paths/epic destinies, just keep the above concepts in mind.