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DrizztFan24
2008-08-11, 09:36 PM
Does anyone have a decent gestalt build for a beguiler? I am looking for something that actually has social skills and the tumble/evasive urban abilities of a free-runner. We are running the Shackled City and I cannot think of anything besides a warlock to compliment the beguiler. I have never run a warlock before so I am not sure if I wish to try. No Psionics or ToB either.

I have access to Comp. Scoundrel, Arcane, Drow of the Underdark, Draconimicon, and PHBII+Core.

So anyone have a good build/suggestion?

Sorry to the folks that already put forth effort with my original query.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-11, 09:39 PM
Scout/Rogue(Swift Ambusher)//Warblade, with skill tricks from complete scoundrel?
Factotem//Warblade?
Swordsage//Urban Ranger?

It's gestalt, pick a skillmonkey class and a class with full BAB and you have an assassin.

The Demented One
2008-08-11, 09:46 PM
A Swordsage using Shadow Hand, along with the homebrewed Oncoming Storm and Dancing Leaf disciplines, would be a good choice. A Beguiler might be interesting; they lack in combat, but have stealth and social skills better than anyone else, and can make sneak attacks with spells.

playswithfire
2008-08-11, 09:53 PM
Something I've been kicking around; more a bounty hunter than an assassin, but could work with a little reflavoring and some DM leniency
Race: Goliath
{table=head]Level | Class 1 | Class 2 | Feats
1 | Swordsage | LA | Improved Unarmed Strike
| | | Feat[Combat Expertise]
| | | Flaw(Shaky)[Skill Focus(Gather Infromation)]
2 | Swordsage | Ranger | Track,Weapon Focus(Shadow Hand weapons)
3 | Swordsage | Ranger | feat[Improved Trip]
4 | Swordsage | Ranger |
5 | Swordsage | Ranger |
6 | Shadow Sun Ninja | Ranger | feat[Improved Natural Attack]
7 | Swordsage | Ranger |
8 | Swordsage | Justicar |
9 | Swordsage | Justicar | Improved Grapple,feat[Scorpion's Grasp]
10 | Swordsage | Justicar |
11 | Swordsage | Justicar |
12 | Swordsage | Justicar | feat[]
13 | Swordsage | Justicar |
14 | Swordsage | Justicar |
15 | Swordsage | Justicar | feat[Quick Draw]
[/table]

The swordsage is unarmed and the ranger can have any alternate class features you want. Skill Focus(Gather Information) is for Justicar and Quick Draw is so you can Improved Hog Tie without holding the rope/manacles when you start the grapple. Has the features and skills to stalk someone, leap out at them suddenly, tie them up and, if necessary, kill them quickly.

In one round, you Sudden Leap or Shadow Blink over to them as a swift action
Attack 1: Trip attack followed up by an unarmed attack which will start the grapple
Attack 2: Hog-tie with either a grapple check or a Use Rope check, having quick-drawn a silk rope or masterwork manacles
Attack 3: Profession(Executioner) check to execute him; rules for executions are in BoVD

EDIT: you probably want to not do the Shadow Sun Ninja Level; that was to get an 8th level stance at level 15 while advancing unarmed strike progression, but that requires Good alignment, which your assassin may not want; particularly as the Justicar requires Lawful

dspeyer
2008-08-12, 01:13 AM
In a lot of ways, a warlock would be a good choice. They're easy to learn. Eldritch Blast gives you some real damage capability (one of the few things beguilers don't have) without eating up your feats. Its at-will powers are a nice compliment to a skill monkey. Finally, it doesn't *require* any high ability scores (so you can pick those for your beguiler).

If you want to go martial, swashbuckler's probably your best bet. Full BAB, 10hd and works off dex+int (as does beguiler). I think it has all the movement skills as class (beguiler already has the social ones).

Another option you might consider (if your DM and setting allow it) is to put level adjusts and racial hit dice on the other side of the gestalt. Pixies, brass or copper dragons, and dopplegangers all make good beguilers.

Covered In Bees
2008-08-12, 01:19 AM
Beguiler... they lack in combat

Oh hell no they don't. Not until very high levels, and maybe not even then.

Warblade//Beguiler would be constantly useful.

Eldariel
2008-08-12, 06:34 AM
Ultimately, I feel Beguiler wouldn't serve you well; it's already a dual progression class of sorts, so it gives up on both sides. I would rather just go Wizard on one side and Rogue (probably multiclassed to meet your needs though) on the other. That way, you'd have a Wizard's spell selection and all the stealth in the world. The only drawback to that combo is relatively low HP, so much depends on how much Con you can afford; Beguiler/full melee would have d10 (probably).

ZekeArgo
2008-08-12, 07:44 AM
Or you can have fun with the Int synergy and go Factotum//Duskblade. Fun blasty/arcany abilities, INT to damn near everything, skills up the wazoo... Maybe not the most powerful combination, but he's got a lot of style

kamikasei
2008-08-12, 08:22 AM
Hang on, I'm confused.

You're playing a gestalt game. And you've already decided that one side of the gestalt will be a Beguiler. Is that right?

So since Beguiler is already giving you good casting and lots of social skills, why do you care if the other side covers those things? Wouldn't it make more sense to choose a second class which provides things you don't already have and covers weaknesses? Something with Int synergy is the obvious choice. Lacking a really great option like Psion or Warblade, you might try Duskblade (since it's in play).

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-12, 09:06 AM
Missed the No psionics close. Is an Erudite using the Spells to Power Variant still to much psionic flavor?

One of the best things you could do based on your OP is go Changeling Rogue Variant with a "Changeling" for Taking 10 and Fast social checks like Diplomacy for 1 to 3 levels. Toss in a level or two of Barbarian for fast movement.

Stalwart Battle Sorcerer Variant gets Average BAB, D8 + 2 HP a level, No ASF in light armor. It will plug some of your Beguiler spellcasting holes and Charisma is good for social interaction skill checks.

Telonius
2008-08-12, 09:22 AM
Beguiler already gives you tumble and balance as class skills, so there's really not much that's going to help you have more access to the Skill Tricks. You're not going to get any better skillpoints unless you go into Rogue (or Factotum, which is not in play).

You might look into Warmage for the other side of your progression. Warmage Edge will help put your intelligence into actual damage, and Armored Mage will allow you to be a little more secure. The spell list is a lot blastier, too.

Eldariel
2008-08-12, 09:30 AM
Except Beguiler has no damage spells and already has Armored Mage, so that seems like a lost cause. Not to mention, you'd be playing Warmage.

Edea
2008-08-12, 09:35 AM
I guess just taking Wizard on the other side is a bad idea, or something?

kamikasei
2008-08-12, 09:40 AM
Except Beguiler has no damage spells and already has Armored Mage, so that seems like a lost cause. Not to mention, you'd be playing Warmage.

No, if he's playing Beguiler//Warmage, he's got two classes, one with excellent skills and utility/"subtle" casting, one with extensive blasty casting, both able to use light armor, both running off Int. Remember, a Beguiler's ability to cast in light armor wouldn't apply to the second class in a gestalt.

It's not a great combo simply because it only gives you Warmage casting, pretty much - not boosting your HD or saves or BAB in any way. But it does make sense.

Eldariel
2008-08-12, 09:53 AM
Warmage is actually based off Charisma; only the secondary benefit is Int-based. And since Warmage has a very restricted (and overall quite poor) list, I just don't see the whole ordeal being worth it. Beguiler already gives you basically all the casting you need, so any secondary casting class is going to give you diminishing returns, even more so if it isn't Int-based (which leaves Wizard out of the allowed books - and that one misses Armored Casting).

The way I look at it, if he wants better casting, he should drop Beguiler entirely and take Wizard as the primary casting class with a straight skill monkey on the other side. Beguiler is already a mix class so it gives up some on both sides, which leads to problems since any classes to supplement either is unavoidably going to overlap with Beguiler, thus not being as strong as it would be as a stand-alone. Beguiler should be mixed with a class that offers something Beguiler just doesn't have at all. That leaves either Divine casting or some Tank-class.


Basically, Beguiler/Warmage is like Wizard/Rogue, except it has worse casting (especially since spontaneous classes advance one level slower), two-attribute dependancy and worse monkeying. So there's very little reason for playing Beguiler/Warmage over Wizard/Rogue other than just having more spells per day (which ultimately isn't that helpful, since you have two separately limited lists, and therefore you're still stuck with X utility from Beguiler and Y blasting from Warmage even though the grand total is larger - that means you can't specialize to do whichever task you need to do). If Warmage were Int-based with a bit more open spelllist (like, all the schools Beguiler can't access or something), it could be considerable but as it stands... Warmage just doesn't address the lackings of Beguiler and thus doesn't really mix well with it.

Telonius
2008-08-12, 09:55 AM
That would also be the case for Wizard - no difference in saves or BAB; though a much, much better spell list and bonus metamagics.

Warlock would get you better BAB, but the same saves and HD.

Kind of a tossup, just with that. I guess it would depend on the role you're intending to play in the party. What else is covered, and what isn't?

EDIT: Ah, forgot it was CHA-based. No wonder I always passed over them before. :smallannoyed:

kamikasei
2008-08-12, 10:07 AM
Warmage is actually based off Charisma; only the secondary benefit is Int-based.

Huh. Shows how much I play Warmages. Although Int and Cha aren't exactly mutually exclusive choices for a Beguiler... but yeah, if they're not Int-MAD it's not nearly as worthwhile.


...stuff about synergy and gestalt...

Agreed; Beguiler//Duskblade seems like the better option by far to me as you get higher HD and BAB along with some more Int-based casting.


That would also be the case for Wizard - no difference in saves or BAB; though a much, much better spell list and bonus metamagics.

Warlock would get you better BAB, but the same saves and HD.

Beguiler gets 3/4 BAB, not 1/2. ...I thought.

I'm still confused as to what exactly the OP wants...

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-12, 10:12 AM
Beguiler gets 3/4 BAB, not 1/2. ...I thought.



No Beguiler gets Poor BAB (1/2 not 3/4) page 7 PHBII.

kamikasei
2008-08-12, 10:18 AM
No Beguiler gets Poor BAB (1/2 not 3/4) page 7 PHBII.

How odd. I could have sworn they had 3/4 like other light-armor-wearing arcanists. Hey, so I guess someone at Wizards was on the ball enough to notice that their spell list and skills were really good.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-12, 10:21 AM
Unless you have a photographic memory (which I don't) there are just to many books and variants to keep track of. :smallcool:

Draken
2008-08-12, 10:26 AM
I would put my vote on Duskblade as well.

Odd enough, maybe Dragon Shaman (Brass or Copper) would make for an interesting concept too.

Chronicled
2008-08-12, 11:32 AM
A Beguiler in gestalt is the perfect opportunity to go the Rainbow Servant route (unless your DM agrees that RS should be full caster progression, but good luck with that, even with the text over table rule). I made a quick build utilizing it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4085383&postcount=14). Rainbow Servant lets you, at level 16, add every spell on the Cleric list to your Beguiler spells known. Options? How about all of them.

Beguiler//Factotum, even without RS, works out quite nicely. Good synergy both in mechanics and flavor. There's some overlap between the two classes, but not enough to be problematic. Going Chameleon on the Factotum side later on is worth considering, but I personally wouldn't go that route.

Beguiler//Wizard lets you choose Illusion and Enchantment as your banned schools, is purely Int-based, and has spell quality (Wizard), spell quantity (Beguiler), and lots of skills.

Beguiler//Archivist has a similar feel, but adds another good save, lets you keep wearing light armor, and (unless your DM gives you plenty of scrolls) gives you a slightly less powerful spell list. Archivist needing Wis for DCs makes Arcane Disciple on the Beguiler side much more tempting.

Beguiler//Duskblade or Beguiler//Warblade would also turn out well, especially in endurance runs. Picking up the Healing Domain via Arcane Disciple and keeping yourself wanded to good health wouldn't be a bad idea.

Eldariel
2008-08-12, 11:44 AM
I wish to remind people of this:


No Psionics or ToB either.

I have access to Comp. Scoundrel, Arcane, Drow of the Underdark, Draconimicon, and PHBII+Core.

Chronicled
2008-08-12, 11:51 AM
I wish to remind people of this:

Ah, well then.

Beguiler//Wizard or Beguiler//Duskblade is the way to go... maybe Beguiler//Rogue/Scout with Swift Ambusher (although that will leave your options very limited against undead and some other enemies). For any of those but the first, I'd still consider Rainbow Servant. If the books listed are those you have instead of those allowed, you can get all the Archivist information (free and legally) here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3).

Edea
2008-08-12, 11:57 AM
Hmm, Beguilers get Touch of Idiocy pretty early on, so you'd probably be channeling that spell quite a bit in combat if Gestalted with Duskblade. Not sure how many other touch spells are up for grabs...

Chronicled
2008-08-12, 01:46 PM
Hmm, Beguilers get Touch of Idiocy pretty early on, so you'd probably be channeling that spell quite a bit in combat if Gestalted with Duskblade. Not sure how many other touch spells are up for grabs...

But if you grab Arcane Strike, you'll practically never run out of spell slots to fuel it. Duskblades have a decent enough touch spell selection as it is. This would be a pretty flexible character, and fun to play, even if the Beguiler//Wizard would be more powerful.

Eldariel
2008-08-12, 01:58 PM
I still don't think there's a real reason to play Beguiler/Wizard over Wizard/Rogue; if you wanna get an arcane skill monkey, may as well go all the way. Beguiler/Duskblade though seems like an awesome idea, if that's the kind of character OP wants to play; it certainly has great contribution from both sides and has very potent combat capabilities.

Chronicled
2008-08-12, 02:18 PM
I still don't think there's a real reason to play Beguiler/Wizard over Wizard/Rogue; if you wanna get an arcane skill monkey, may as well go all the way. Beguiler/Duskblade though seems like an awesome idea, if that's the kind of character OP wants to play; it certainly has great contribution from both sides and has very potent combat capabilities.

Beguiler//Wizard doesn't have to be run as an arcane skillmonkey. It can be made as the ultimate arcane sage--you finally have enough skill points to max out Spellcraft, Concentration, and every knowledge skill; while being able to cast powerful prepared spells and useful spontaneous ones. Ta-da! No rogue flavoring needed. Mechanically, there's a simple reason: MORE SPELLS. Sneak attack, eat your heart out.

I'd probably go Beguiler//Duskblade though; it seems like it'd be more fun to play.

Eldariel
2008-08-12, 02:27 PM
Beguiler//Wizard doesn't have to be run as an arcane skillmonkey. It can be made as the ultimate arcane sage--you finally have enough skill points to max out Spellcraft, Concentration, and every knowledge skill; while being able to cast powerful prepared spells and useful spontaneous ones. Ta-da! No rogue flavoring needed. Mechanically, there's a simple reason: MORE SPELLS. Sneak attack, eat your heart out.

Generally though, with Beguiler-casting being one level behind Wizard and with Wizard-spells already being of incredible potency, it doesn't seem like you'd really need the extra spells that much. As far as the skillmonkey-part goes, it seems like he wants to play an arcane skillmonkey ("I am looking for something that actually has social skills and the tumble/evasive urban abilities of a free-runner.").

In that case, Wizard/Rogue does work better than Beguiler/Wizard (extra 2 points per level and Skill Masteries on level 10 along with the basics like Ref-save, Evasions, Uncanny Dodges, and I suppose somewhat usable Sneak Attack; I'd almost lean towards Martial Rogue); you're certainly right about the sage-role and if he wanted something like that, I'd be all for Beguiler/Wizard (although even then, two so similar classes tend to give you less than having two classes with notably different abilities/lists combined) or Archivist/Wizard (or Archivist/Beguiler for that matter), but for his present role, it just doesn't seem like the best option.


If you do want more martial ability, DrizztFan, do go Beguiler/Duskblade though. It's a great idea with high HD, high saves in the two important ones, good skillpoints, solid spell lists and class features.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-12, 02:32 PM
He could go with the Feat Rogue Variant -2 or 3+ using a Half Elf Paragon - 3:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue

Skill Focus Diplomacy at first level with Feat Rogue -1 instead of Sneak Attack.

Ganurath
2008-08-12, 03:11 PM
Beguiler 20 // Hexblade 5 / Avenging Executioner 5 / Ghost-Faced Killer 10

It requires a heavy feat commitment, but it's well rounded. The Beguiler disrupt enemies, but doesn't have an effective finish, can't cast and fight at the same time, and has trouble dealing with groups. The Hexblade PrC half makes up for this: Between Power Attack and Sudden Strike solid hits aren't too much of a task under the cover of illusion, the Hexblade familiar can fight well enough to cover the Beguiler half's casting AND provide a remote casting platform, and the combination of Intimidate abilities for the PrCs means a chain reaction of high-damage hits against large groups of foes.