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Mastikator
2008-08-12, 03:54 AM
I was thinking today and I came to an interesting observation. Isn't goblins really a lot like the elves?

I mean, they both live in the forest, they both live in secret hidden villages. They both favor dexterity, skill and finesse over brutal strength. They both use the same tactic (attack from cover, fall back, hide, repeat until enemy is dead), they both hate the dwarves. They both favor bows.
6 things they share in common.

The difference is that one has a far longer lifespan and uses arcane magic rather than divine. One is twice as big as the other (approx). One is used as cannon fodder for the other.
3 things different.

6 similarities and 3 differences.
Hmm...
So what ramifications does this have? Is it even true? Discuss!

Xuincherguixe
2008-08-12, 03:57 AM
Well, Goblins and Elves in mythology are both types of fairies. Not sure what relevance that has, but it might have some...

DigoDragon
2008-08-12, 07:12 AM
I think in certain older D&D mythologies, goblins were evil elves who were cursed by Corellon into the less-then-cute looking beings they are now. :smallsmile: Dunno the source of that, but hey, makes for an interesting background between them. Maybe if you can do a little research into the older D&D editions you might find something.

Tengu_temp
2008-08-12, 07:19 AM
The difference is that one has a far longer lifespan and uses arcane magic rather than divine. One is twice as big as the other (approx). One is used as cannon fodder for the other.
3 things different.


And that elves rarely have problems with personal hygiene. And meditate instead of sleeping. And are usually CG, while goblins are usually NE. And there's a crapload of elf subraces, while goblins have only few. And that's just the tip of the iceflow.

The biggest similarity between elves and goblins is that both come from old mythologies and both are presented currently very different than how they were there.

Burley
2008-08-12, 07:56 AM
While there are plenty of similarities, the key difference, which I feel is the deciding factor, is this: Elves are horribly disfigured, sadisticly violent, godless witch-doctors who thing they're the best thing to grace the planet because they got a hold of Orlando Bloom.

Goblins have David Bowie on their side.

Ecalsneerg
2008-08-12, 08:15 AM
I think in certain older D&D mythologies, goblins were evil elves who were cursed by Corellon into the less-then-cute looking beings they are now. :smallsmile:

BLASPHEMY

They're so cute and fuzzy...

Stormageddon
2008-08-12, 12:17 PM
While there are plenty of similarities, the key difference, which I feel is the deciding factor, is this: Elves are horribly disfigured, sadisticly violent, godless witch-doctors who thing they're the best thing to grace the planet because they got a hold of Orlando Bloom.

Goblins have David Bowie on their side.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

Fan
2008-08-12, 12:20 PM
BWAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH! AHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA! AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAH! -begins bleeding hes laughing so much- AHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHA!
-wipes a bloody tear from his eye-
Okay I'm done now, Here the difference

Elves: Awesome, and they have Link
Goblins: Major suckage, and are mentally retarded.

hamishspence
2008-08-12, 12:23 PM
Goblins, non-D&D ones, do have their own folklore, poems "We must not look at goblin men" etc. And "hobgoblins" were friendly household spirits, a bit like Harry Potter elves, actually.

RTGoodman
2008-08-12, 12:32 PM
Well, Goblins are typically Red and follow its goals pretty well with lots of direct damage abilities, while Elves are Green and do a lot with mana and... wait, wrong game. :smallwink:

To me, it's not that Elves and Goblins are similar, it's just that their both non-human humanoids and as humans we have to define them with a finite amount of traits that'll make them different from humans but not so different that they have an crazy alien mindset or anything. So it's not so much that Goblins and Elves are similar as it is that they both differ from humans in ways that are similar.

Morty
2008-08-12, 12:38 PM
Well, the biggest difference between goblins and elves is that elves have got better PR specialists, which is why they're cunning and graceful combatants and goblins are dirty cowards with poor grasp on tactics, not to mention elves' PC race status and goblins' lack of it.
Otherwise though, elves and goblins are rather different both in D&D and its roots.

monty
2008-08-12, 12:38 PM
Goblins have an awesome comic. Elves have Orlando Bloom. However, elves also have Link, who saves them from complete failure.

hamishspence
2008-08-12, 12:40 PM
In D&D, yes (moving goblins out of the caves and into the woods in 4th ed was what made them more similar)

In mythology, goblins and elves seem to merge, depending on who's writing. Darker elf legends seem to have the elves being very like the goblins. I'm not sure if goblin and elf actually come from the same roots, lingistically, or not.

Ganurath
2008-08-12, 12:42 PM
Goblins and elves don't really have much in common beyond their choice of military tactics.

Elves have a rich cultural history, arcane academies, and elderly loremasters to ensure that they have the magical edge and generally superior education compared to "lesser" races. Goblins, being of too short a lifespan to bother with literacy even when violence isn't an issue, have to rely almost exclusively on low level clerics and the oral tradition.

Elves hate orcs due to a religious myth that's ancient even by elven standards, and their hostility toward dwarves is never actually explained. Goblins hate orcs because they oppress goblins, and their hostility toward dwarves comes from generations of bloody warfare... which the goblins were probably dragged into by orcs.

The most cultural distinct cousin races of the elves, the drow and aquatic elves, either hate the main race for reasons stated in the religious myths or or stay out of the main racial conflicts in favor of a territory war with the sahuagin, respectively. The goblin cousins, hobgoblins and bugbears, either oppress orcs who oppress goblins to earn the hatred of both or stay out of main racial conflicts in favor of banditry, respectively.

The elven culture has everything about the individual; elves value personal freedom and judge disputes on a case by case basis. The goblin culture has all the goblins sharing everything with each other and taking what's needed to support the clan, very communal.

Elves make a point of preserving their resources and surroundings. Goblins make no such stipulations, expanding as fast as possible in the hopes of getting their numbers up enough to overwhelm whatever tries to kill them next.

And as a correction on the OP, goblins live in the plains and favor thrown weapons, in contrast to the forest dwelling elf's preference of the bow.

AKA_Bait
2008-08-12, 12:45 PM
I think in certain older D&D mythologies, goblins were evil elves who were cursed by Corellon into the less-then-cute looking beings they are now. :smallsmile: Dunno the source of that, but hey, makes for an interesting background between them. Maybe if you can do a little research into the older D&D editions you might find something.

I do believe you are thinking of Elves and Orcs in Tolkien. Either that or early D&D ripped off Tolkien big time. Wait...

SydneyLosstarot
2008-08-12, 12:46 PM
Well, aside from ancient mythology, Tolkien's goblins(and orcs, who are basically the same) are just corrupted elves who kind of refused to see the glory and holiness of the West. =)

in addition, MtG elves and goblins are classic tribal decks, though goblins tend to kick lots of ass, while elves generally suck bigtime.

Burley
2008-08-12, 12:48 PM
Elves have Link. Okay. I can roll with that, but, Goblins have David Bowie.
Also, Mogwai/Gremlins are classified as goblins. Mogwai are awesome, in both the Gizmo and Stripe sense, as are Gremlins, because they...sabotage...airplanes. (Okay, that part got away from me.)

Let me end with this statement: Goblins rule, while Link's love interest is a cross-dresser. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)

hamishspence
2008-08-12, 12:52 PM
In 4th ed, goblins got moved to forests, at least in some sources.

Tolkien went through a lot of ideas on Orc origins, with corrupted Elves being only one (altered animals, corrupted humans, minor demons being others)

And Elves who refused to go to Valinor were the Avari, or Dark Elves, not orcs, though some Avari may have been altered into Orcs in the Silmarillion version.

SpikeFightwicky
2008-08-12, 12:55 PM
Goblins have an awesome comic. Elves have Orlando Bloom. However, elves also have Link, who saves them from complete failure.

I Link even really an elf? I mean, in 7 years he goes from kid to adult. That's a very 'human' lifespan right there. Then again, I'm not sure where OoT fits in the overall storyline.

Guildorn Tanaleth
2008-08-12, 12:59 PM
Well, aside from ancient mythology, Tolkien's goblins(and orcs, who are basically the same) are just corrupted elves who kind of refused to see the glory and holiness of the West.

Correction: The first orcs (which, in Tolkien, are the same thing as goblins) were elves who were captured by the servants of Morgoth (then called Melkor) and corrupted & warped by his dark power into a race of foul servants. If I remember correctly, trolls were created from ents by similar means.


And Elves who refused to go to Valinor were the Avari, or Dark Elves, not orcs, though some Avari may have been altered into Orcs in the Silmarillion version.

Actually, the Dark Elves were the Moriquendi, those who never reached Valinor, which includes the Avari (the Unwilling) and those who got lost/sidetracked along the way.

monty
2008-08-12, 01:02 PM
I Link even really an elf? I mean, in 7 years he goes from kid to adult. That's a very 'human' lifespan right there. Then again, I'm not sure where OoT fits in the overall storyline.

If I remember right, OoT is the first game in the series chronologically (which is why Ganondorf isn't Ganon yet), and the other games follow some weird two-track storyline with a few (Link's Awakening, etc.) that don't involve the main line and therefore could be anywhere.

hamishspence
2008-08-12, 01:13 PM
Some of the Moriquendi were "Green elves" Some were "grey elves" Elves of the Twilight. Both of these groups were of the Teleri. Avari are, well, darker. The only elves who are NOT "Eldar" in that sense (though it was first used for all, it came to mean only the elves who had at least started out on the trip)

But Tolkien isn't the only writer of Elves. they go back a long way in mythology, and so do goblins, and the two get rather similar.

chiasaur11
2008-08-12, 01:24 PM
BWAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH! AHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA! AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAH! -begins bleeding hes laughing so much- AHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHA!
-wipes a bloody tear from his eye-
Okay I'm done now, Here the difference

Elves: Awesome, and they have Link
Goblins: Major suckage, and are mentally retarded.

Racist anti goblinite.
Yor kind is the reason we even have a Goblin defense fund.
Also, Link is a Hylian, not an elf.
(science shows us there is a difference.)

So no, Goblins aren't like Elves. Goblins are cool.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-12, 01:54 PM
I was thinking today and I came to an interesting observation. Isn't goblins really a lot like the elves?

I mean, they both live in the forest, they both live in secret hidden villages. They both favor dexterity, skill and finesse over brutal strength. They both use the same tactic (attack from cover, fall back, hide, repeat until enemy is dead), they both hate the dwarves. They both favor bows.
6 things they share in common.

The difference is that one has a far longer lifespan and uses arcane magic rather than divine. One is twice as big as the other (approx). One is used as cannon fodder for the other.
3 things different.

6 similarities and 3 differences.
Hmm...
So what ramifications does this have? Is it even true? Discuss!

Now we know how the Gnome race was originally created :smalleek:

turkishproverb
2008-08-12, 01:57 PM
While there are plenty of similarities, the key difference, which I feel is the deciding factor, is this: Elves are horribly disfigured, sadisticly violent, godless witch-doctors who thing they're the best thing to grace the planet because they got a hold of Orlando Bloom.

Goblins have David Bowie on their side.

You sir, win the internet.

Burley
2008-08-12, 02:06 PM
You sir, win the internet.

Yeah, I know. I've done it before. I got a closet full of the internets.

In as much seriousness as I can muster: Goblins and Elves are completely not the same things, and the similarities are rather ho-hum. It's just like saying: Humans and Elves are the same because they are humanoids that make good PCs. Or that Gnomes and Elves are the same because they're fey.
There are tons of fey out there, including gnomes, elves, pixies, nixies, grig, goblins (which inlcude dwarves, if you're going through historical mythology), orcs, bugbears, hobgoblins, etc etc etc.

They have similarities, but that is not enough to put them in a comparable catagory.

Vexxation
2008-08-12, 02:23 PM
If I remember right, OoT is the first game in the series chronologically (which is why Ganondorf isn't Ganon yet), and the other games follow some weird two-track storyline with a few (Link's Awakening, etc.) that don't involve the main line and therefore could be anywhere.

Eh.. The Zelda storyline is very fudged.

You've got the first two, which have no direct timeline anywhere. Then you've got "A Link to the Past" which features Ganondorf *and* Ganon (He became Ganon when the dark World and the Triforce corrupted him). In "A Link to the Past" Link is a young man who receives a sword for the first time. So that's totally disconnected from any other game. "Ocarina of Time" reveals Link as a youth living in the forest. "Majora's Mask" we know is set very soon after "Ocarina" as shown by Link's riding Epona and losing the Ocarina itself.

Then you have the "Oracle of (Ages/Seasons)" for Gameboy. Those take place in a completely different timeline, one coming first, the other right afterward, depending on which you play first, if you "port" your game over.

Then there's "Wind Waker" which is yet another distinct timeline, and is followed shortly thereafter by "The Phantom Hourglass" on DS.

And now we have "The Twilight Princess" which falls into a Hyrule of its own; yet again we have another storyline separate from the others.

So in conclusion, "Ocarina of Time" precedes "Majora's Mask" but there's no other game in that storyline. All the games, save a few that mesh together, are different versions of Hyrule. Thus I believe that all the different versions take place in parallel universes, which explains why Link is always the hero and Ganon generally the villain.

Also, Link's not an Elf. He's a Hylian. Pointy ears, yeah, but no living for hundreds of years. He's got a pretty human lifespan.

hamishspence
2008-08-12, 02:31 PM
some goblin stories have them as creepy, woods-dwelling creatures that steal children. Some stories have elves as creepy child-stealers.

Some stories use goblins as underground creatures, and merge with dwarfs and gnomes.

it depends who's writing.

Xuincherguixe
2008-08-12, 02:39 PM
Elves: Awesome dumb, and they have Link
Goblins: Major suckage win, and are mentally retarded.

Fixed that for you :P

Deathtouched
2008-08-12, 03:33 PM
Like Guildorn said, Tolkien knew they were one and the same. And goblins are better because they are a savage oppressed race whereas elves are pretty snobs who exist only as fodder for fanboy/girl posters.

monty
2008-08-12, 03:48 PM
Any uncertainties about the merits of goblins can be addressed by the Goblin Defense Fund (http://www.goblindefensefund.org/main.html).

chiasaur11
2008-08-12, 03:50 PM
Eh.. The Zelda storyline is very fudged.

You've got the first two, which have no direct timeline anywhere. Then you've got "A Link to the Past" which features Ganondorf *and* Ganon (He became Ganon when the dark World and the Triforce corrupted him). In "A Link to the Past" Link is a young man who receives a sword for the first time. So that's totally disconnected from any other game. "Ocarina of Time" reveals Link as a youth living in the forest. "Majora's Mask" we know is set very soon after "Ocarina" as shown by Link's riding Epona and losing the Ocarina itself.

Then you have the "Oracle of (Ages/Seasons)" for Gameboy. Those take place in a completely different timeline, one coming first, the other right afterward, depending on which you play first, if you "port" your game over.

Then there's "Wind Waker" which is yet another distinct timeline, and is followed shortly thereafter by "The Phantom Hourglass" on DS.

And now we have "The Twilight Princess" which falls into a Hyrule of its own; yet again we have another storyline separate from the others.

So in conclusion, "Ocarina of Time" precedes "Majora's Mask" but there's no other game in that storyline. All the games, save a few that mesh together, are different versions of Hyrule. Thus I believe that all the different versions take place in parallel universes, which explains why Link is always the hero and Ganon generally the villain.

Also, Link's not an Elf. He's a Hylian. Pointy ears, yeah, but no living for hundreds of years. He's got a pretty human lifespan.

Actually, there are strong hints that "Wind Waker" is a distant futre sequel to "Orcarina of Time"

Vexxation
2008-08-12, 03:52 PM
Actually, there are strong hints that "Wind Waker" is a distant futre sequel to "Orcarina of Time"

Oh, right, the whole "Hero of Time" legend.

I'd forgotten that.
So at least that's accounted for.
So there's apparently a definite main storyline: "Ocarina", "Majora", "Wind Waker", "Phantom Hourglass".

Mercenary Pen
2008-08-12, 03:59 PM
Difference between Goblins and Elves?

D&D 4th edition finally gives a concrete and mechanical difference between the two races...

Goblins can move any time an attack misses them (presumably to stop them being hit by elves), and elves can reroll their attack once if they don't like the numbers (presumably to hit the goblins who are trying to avoid them).

All this leads me to believe that the Elves are brutal overlords oppressing their goblin slaves!

chiasaur11
2008-08-12, 04:06 PM
Difference between Goblins and Elves?

D&D 4th edition finally gives a concrete and mechanical difference between the two races...

Goblins can move any time an attack misses them (presumably to stop them being hit by elves), and elves can reroll their attack once if they don't like the numbers (presumably to hit the goblins who are trying to avoid them).

All this leads me to believe that the Elves are brutal overlords oppressing their goblin slaves!

Someone give this man a Gobbo doll for brilliance and insight.

We'd give you an internet, but we're out.

Mercenary Pen
2008-08-12, 04:18 PM
Well, the two pieces of information just seemed to mesh together nicely, so I just went with those and did a Miko...

Next thing you know, somebody'll create a half-drow half-bugbear race with Predatory Eye and Darkfire in the same statblock...What, I might as well create my own weird attempt at a master race...

Knaight
2008-08-12, 05:38 PM
Also, Link's not an Elf. He's a Hylian. Pointy ears, yeah, but no living for hundreds of years. He's got a pretty human lifespan.

Other than constant reincarnation while retaining abilities, yes. Not that elves have that. Also who cares that Goblins have David Bowie. Last I checked he lost to a teenage girl, a dwarf, and a yeti. With orange fur. And the goblins were routed by a yeti. With orange fur. What does matter is that Link had a reccuring enemy who was a Goblin. With a boar. Technically a Moblin, but then technically D&D had Balors in 2nd edition(they do later, but there are changes). So elves are even further down the ditch.

ericgrau
2008-08-12, 05:50 PM
Ok, so goblins are in fact yet another elven subrace. What else is new? You can't walk more than half a mile without stepping on an elven subrace.

chiasaur11
2008-08-12, 05:51 PM
Other than constant reincarnation while retaining abilities, yes. Not that elves have that. Also who cares that Goblins have David Bowie. Last I checked he lost to a teenage girl, a dwarf, and a yeti. With orange fur. And the goblins were routed by a yeti. With orange fur. What does matter is that Link had a reccuring enemy who was a Goblin. With a boar. Technically a Moblin, but then technically D&D had Balors in 2nd edition(they do later, but there are changes). So elves are even further down the ditch.

Ah, but David Bowie IS Nicolia Tesla, and therefore, invented a cloning device and a Nazi fighting, wise cracking robot.

Skyserpent
2008-08-12, 05:57 PM
Van Von Hunter did a rather interesting bit where they noted the division between

Elves, Legendary warriors who wielded magic weapons

and Tree-dwelling cookie-baking ELFS.

In their story Elfs were corrupted and became Goblins...

ADORABLE Goblins

They still baked cookies. they were just green and had big sharp toothy grins.

vicente408
2008-08-13, 12:57 AM
Oh, right, the whole "Hero of Time" legend.

I'd forgotten that.
So at least that's accounted for.
So there's apparently a definite main storyline: "Ocarina", "Majora", "Wind Waker", "Phantom Hourglass".

OBJECTION!

Majora can't be counted in that timeline. It doesn't take place in Hyrule like the others, it takes place in a very similar, but alternate universe known as Termina.

Legend of Zelda doesn't have a very consistant "storyline". Each game takes similar story elements and similar settings and takes it in its own little direction.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-08-13, 01:20 AM
Any uncertainties about the merits of goblins can be addressed by the Goblin Defense Fund (http://www.goblindefensefund.org/main.html).

In particular... (http://www.goblindefensefund.org/history4.html)

DigoDragon
2008-08-13, 06:41 AM
I do believe you are thinking of Elves and Orcs in Tolkien. Either that or early D&D ripped off Tolkien big time. Wait...

Maybe I am thinking of orcs, but I thought the "ripping off" part was standard fare? :smallwink:

Matthew
2008-08-13, 05:27 PM
Maybe I am thinking of orcs, but I thought the "ripping off" part was standard fare? :smallwink:

Interestingly, that was actually only one possibility that Tolkien considered. The Silmarillion preserves that idea as part of the 'canon', but Tolkien had actually pretty much abandoned that interpretation before his death (for Middle Earth orientated theological reasons). It is definitely easy to see Goblins/Orcs and Elves as two sides of the same coin, paralleling the corruption of various Maiar.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-13, 05:28 PM
I know I'm going to start making a point of telling elves in games this very thing. :smalltongue:

Innis Cabal
2008-08-13, 05:44 PM
Eh.. The Zelda storyline is very fudged.

You've got the first two, which have no direct timeline anywhere. Then you've got "A Link to the Past" which features Ganondorf *and* Ganon (He became Ganon when the dark World and the Triforce corrupted him). In "A Link to the Past" Link is a young man who receives a sword for the first time. So that's totally disconnected from any other game. "Ocarina of Time" reveals Link as a youth living in the forest. "Majora's Mask" we know is set very soon after "Ocarina" as shown by Link's riding Epona and losing the Ocarina itself.

Then you have the "Oracle of (Ages/Seasons)" for Gameboy. Those take place in a completely different timeline, one coming first, the other right afterward, depending on which you play first, if you "port" your game over.

Then there's "Wind Waker" which is yet another distinct timeline, and is followed shortly thereafter by "The Phantom Hourglass" on DS.

And now we have "The Twilight Princess" which falls into a Hyrule of its own; yet again we have another storyline separate from the others.

So in conclusion, "Ocarina of Time" precedes "Majora's Mask" but there's no other game in that storyline. All the games, save a few that mesh together, are different versions of Hyrule. Thus I believe that all the different versions take place in parallel universes, which explains why Link is always the hero and Ganon generally the villain.

Also, Link's not an Elf. He's a Hylian. Pointy ears, yeah, but no living for hundreds of years. He's got a pretty human lifespan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelda_timeline#History

There you go.

Also, even if the fluff is similar, stas count for this one

monty
2008-08-13, 05:46 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelda_timeline#History

There you go.

Also, even if the fluff is similar, stas count for this one

I just skimmed over it, so I may have missed something, but that appears to be a timeline of when the games were released, not how they relate to each other within the Zelda universe.

Stormageddon
2008-08-13, 05:55 PM
I like how this thread is talking about three things at once.

My two cents:

David Bowie is awesome.

The Zelda games are all held together by plot but barely.

And I could care less about elves or goblins. Give me a kobold any day..... mmmmhhhh...... nachos!

monty
2008-08-13, 06:02 PM
And I could care less about elves or goblins. Give me a kobold any day..... mmmmhhhh...... nachos!

I don't know. Kobolds are pretty good, certainly better than those pansy elves, but kobolds are to goblins as Sammy Hagar is to David Lee Roth. Hardly bad at what they do, but a pale imitation of the real thing.

chiasaur11
2008-08-13, 06:20 PM
I don't know. Kobolds are pretty good, certainly better than those pansy elves, but kobolds are to goblins as Sammy Hagar is to David Lee Roth. Hardly bad at what they do, but a pale imitation of the real thing.

So, what does that make Pun Pun?
And for that matter, Mike Haggar.

monty
2008-08-13, 06:25 PM
So, what does that make Pun Pun?
And for that matter, Mike Haggar.

Pun-Pun is Eddie, obviously.
And who?

chiasaur11
2008-08-13, 06:43 PM
Pun-Pun is Eddie, obviously.
And who?

The best Mayor in history. One of the heroes of Final Fight, when his daughter is kidnapped by terrorists, he goes out and beats 'em up personally, eating roast chicken he finds in crates along the way.

monty
2008-08-13, 06:44 PM
The best Mayor in history. One of the heroes of Final Fight, when his daughter is kidnapped by terrorists, he goes out and beats 'em up personally, eating roast chicken he finds in crates along the way.

All right, but what does that have to do with a Van Halen analogy?

chiasaur11
2008-08-13, 06:53 PM
All right, but what does that have to do with a Van Halen analogy?

...Same last name?

Sorry for ruining a good analogy. Curse my low level of knowledge of bands other than Limozeen!

Jayngfet
2008-08-13, 08:39 PM
Anyone else reminded of Hobgoblin/Dwarf similarities?

DigoDragon
2008-08-14, 08:53 AM
So, what does that make Pun Pun?

Well if kobolds are akin to nachos, Pun Pun would be the cheese. :smalltongue:

Vexxation
2008-08-14, 08:58 AM
Anyone else reminded of Hobgoblin/Dwarf similarities?

Well, that makes sense.
Dwarves are really just hob-elves.

monty
2008-08-14, 11:22 AM
Well if kobolds are akin to nachos, Pun Pun would be the cheese. :smalltongue:

Hey, that's nacho cheese! It's mine! (Try saying it out loud if you don't get the joke.)