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View Full Version : help fix the duelist and aristocrat?



Stupendous_Man
2008-08-12, 05:43 AM
hey

i have an idea for a character that's an aristocrat who prc's into duelist

problem is, aristocrat is an npc class (with potential) and duelist is a bit sucky

i would like to start by giving hte aristocrat bonus feats every 3 or 4 levels such as skill focus diplomacy, persuasive, leadership (modified so nothing too crazy happens) and etc. basically thing's you'd expect an oiled manipulative leader figure ot have.

and perhaps some abilities like

"Bloody Peasant! (ex) : once per day, the aristocrat may attack a member of a lower class with impunity as long as he has sufficient justification for outrage."

duelist... i would like to replace prerequisite feats with things like combat reflexes, combat expertise, and one of the improved feint/disarm/trip line. maybe feint or disarm, as that's what you'd get in fencing, which is "aristocratic".

not sure how to beef up the duelist's abilities though. maybe precise strike progression as a rogue, ie, +1d6 first level, +1d6 every third level?

all suggestions welcome!


ps. and yes, i ran this through a spellchecker.

AstralFire
2008-08-12, 09:30 AM
The Swashbuckler isn't the best class ever, but it's a better base to work with than the Aristocrat. Bonus feats do not class features make, and while the Fighter's a halfway decent class now if you can pull from all splatbooks, that came by requiring extremely strict and detailed feat chains tailor made for it. The Thug Fighter from UA, despite its name, also works very well, and the Rogue that gets Fighter feats instead of Sneak Attack can better represent someone frailer.

To consider other options: TWF Urban Ranger (possibly with a variant like distracting attack if you don't want him to have a dog or something), take one of the many spell-less options. Duelists usually used a small blade off-hand to guard with, and Favored Enemy Humanoid (Races he likes to fight) can work well.

I'll poke at a redone Duelist in a sec, but there is really no good reason to try and build a class from the Aristocrat.

EDIT: I'm feeling lazy, I do enough class retooling every day. So instead of redoing the duelist, I'm going to say: Let Precise Strike work with any finessable weapon and it goes up every other level like Sneak Attack (but still requires the only attack with one hand thing.) Most of its other class features won't see as much use compared to a lot of the nice things a Rogue can get, and Precise Strike can't be TWFed with. The only reason to take the class is a Sneak Attack progression that doesn't require flanking.

Stupendous_Man
2008-08-12, 09:53 AM
you are absolutely right.

the idea i had originally was to take aristocrat as a base, however, and rework it beyond additional feats.

i was joking iwth the bloody peasant ex ability, but i think we could ahve a few cha dependant abilities, like marshalls perhaps. is that a good idea or no?

AstralFire
2008-08-12, 10:00 AM
Intimidate/Bluff and their combat related feats already cover most of the uses of Cha for melee. (There's a feat to intimidate people as you attack them in PHB II, allowing you to make a scalding, mocking remark as you flay his skin, for example.) I love Cha, Cha is sexy, but what are you interested in having the character do that's not well represented by the Intimidating Strike, Greater/Kiai Shout, and Goad feats? (Your example makes me think that's the direction you want the class features to go down.)

weishan
2008-08-12, 10:03 AM
Bloody Peasnts and other 'noble abilities' would be better handled as an RPing or skill check related thing. If you let a PC play a noble, he should have the privaliges of one. I would suggest not making a noble class and instead using annother base class and saying that he's a noble with priveliges of such and such.

Aquillion
2008-08-12, 10:29 AM
Let's see, possible Aristocrat abilities... Some of these could be broken up into multiple abilities, with the bonus increasing at set points. (The bonuses might seem a bit low; assume they increase as you go up in levels, though I won't bother to say that.)

Aristocratic Will (Ex)
You have been raised and trained to lead others, and this has left you with a strong will that rejects mental control. You receive +2 on your will save against any effect that would compel, control, or influence your mind. This bonus increases to +4 against effects that are not magical or psionic in nature.

Aristocratic Status (Ex)
As a noble, you receive a +2 bonus to all social checks and rolls with most people who are aware of your noble title and its meaning. This does not apply to creatures that are entirely outside of civilization, but does apply even with people who do not defer to your title (such as citizens of opposing nations, or higher-ranking nobles), since they are still more likely to pay attention to what you say. This bonus increases to +4 with other nobles, because you also know (in a general sense) the correct way to behave in noble company.

You have many ways to convince people of your noble status; these may include signet rings, your noble bearing, birthmarks, etc. You can normally assume that convincing people of your noble status is automatic, unless someone with a specific reason to do so is challenging you over it.

Additionally, when dealing with people who do defer to your noble title (such as common, non-rebellious citizens of the area where you are a noble), the default attitude they have to your group improves by one step (to a maximum of Helpful) as soon as you reveal your status.

Aristocratic Resources
While aristocratic adventurers, for one reason or another, will not generally be able to spend their entire family fortune on frivolous adventuring, your contacts and resources do help you from time to time. You pay only 80% of the listed price when purchasing non-magical goods and services, or when paying spellcasters to cast spells for you. You cannot haggle when using this ability.

Manservant
You have a trained manservant (often someone who you have known since childhood) who accompanies you on your adventure; they are fiercely, fanatically loyal, and will die for you if necessary (though they may refuse to do so for pointless or unnecessary reasons.) They are not normally skilled in combat, but will engage if you order them. Treat them as a Commoner whose level is always two less than yours.

They are from an entire family (or one of several) who has been devoted to your family's service for generations; if they should die, you can replace them with a sibling or other relative within a week. (Alternatively, of course, you can choose to resurrect them through the usual means.)

Stupendous_Man
2008-08-12, 10:58 AM
awesome :smallbiggrin: that's what i'm talking about!

and dare i dream of a manservant... with an inordinate love of turnips?

Yakk
2008-08-12, 11:07 AM
The Aristrocratic PC:

Start with the standard Aristrocratic NPC class.

Increase skill points to 6/level.

Hobbies:
At level 1, 5, 11, 17, the Aristrocrat PC gains a bonus feat from the following list:
Agile, Alertness, Athletic, Deceitful, Deft Hands, Diligent, Investigator, Negotiator, Nimble Fingers, Persuasive, Self-Sufficient, Stealthy

Fortune Favors the Favored:
At level 2, 8, 14 and 20, the Aristrocrat PC gains a Favor Token. These Tokens are replaced after an 8 hour rest (no more than once per day), and each allows the Aristrocrat to gain an untyped +1 bonus to any d20 roll, after the Arisrocrat rolls the die. Multiple Favor Tokens can be spent on a single roll.

Leadership:
At level 3, 9, 15, the Aristrocrat PC gains a follower, servant, or minder.

This character uses the Elite array, and is quite loyal to the Aristrocrat, if not obedient.

The level of the follower is determined by the Aristrocrat's level and the type of class of the follower:


NPC PC
1 - -
2 1 -
3 2 1
4 3 2
5 4 2
6 5 3
7 6 4
8 7 5
9 8 5
10 9 6
11 10 7
12 11 8
13 12 8
14 13 9
15 14 10
16 15 11
17 16 11
18 17 12
19 18 13
20 19 14

For every 2 non-Aristrocrat levels (not counting Gestalt levels), the level of the Aristrocrat is considered 1 higher for purposes of the level of the follower.

These followers gain levels automatically when the Aristrocrat PC gains levels. They are single-classed characters, and are presumed to be of the same race as the PC. If the DM allows, they can be other races with less base ECL.

Aristrocrat Followers who are slain may only be replaced via a Raise Dead, or similar, spell, or at the option of the DM a particularly inspired normal follower may become an Aristrocrat Follower.

Royal Training:
At level 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19, the Arithrocratic PC gains the benefits of "gesalt" with a PC class. This retroactively applies to their lowest Aristrocratic level.

...

I think that is enough to generate a playable PC-power class.

AstralFire
2008-08-12, 11:15 AM
I'm not sure about Royal Training. Especially if people haven't been keeping close track of when they got what Hit Points/Skill Points.

Other than that, that seems kind of interesting, though I'm reminded more of City of Heroes' Mastermind than a dueling person.

Yakk
2008-08-13, 01:53 PM
The benefits of an Aristrocrat that overlap with other classes are pretty flat -- 3/4 BaB, 2d8 HP, 6 skill points/level.

A class with 1d10 HP gets +1 HP, and 1d12 with +2 HP. A class with full BaB gets +1/4 BaB. A class with 8 skill points/level gets +2 skill points (or +8 at level 1), selected from either class list. Other class features (spell casting progression, bonus feats, sneak attack, etc) are fully gained.

Hmm. It might be clearer to make the Gesalt occur at the current level instead, eh?

AstralFire
2008-08-13, 02:30 PM
The benefits of an Aristrocrat that overlap with other classes are pretty flat -- 3/4 BaB, 2d8 HP, 6 skill points/level.

A class with 1d10 HP gets +1 HP, and 1d12 with +2 HP. A class with full BaB gets +1/4 BaB. A class with 8 skill points/level gets +2 skill points (or +8 at level 1), selected from either class list. Other class features (spell casting progression, bonus feats, sneak attack, etc) are fully gained.

Hmm. It might be clearer to make the Gesalt occur at the current level instead, eh?

That was more what I meant. I don't think it's an overpowering feature so much as it is a confusing one, and I can't think of any dis/advantages balance-wise to making them occur earlier versus later.

AlexanderRM
2008-08-13, 06:53 PM
i would like to start by giving hte aristocrat bonus feats every 3 or 4 levels such as skill focus diplomacy, persuasive, leadership (modified so nothing too crazy happens) and etc. basically thing's you'd expect an oiled manipulative leader figure ot have.

With leadership, perhaps you could have it as a special case that they must be at least 6th level? I assume taking it at low levels is the potential for crazy things... alternatively, you could do something simpler and with more precedent and simply give the leadership as a special bonus feat at 6th level, since you'd assume that aristocrats would probably have that.


Also, if you have Charisma as a key ability for the aristocrat anyway, I'd say you might want to consider making him a dashing swordsman instead... I think it fits the Aristocrat archetype in all the ways the duelist does and doesn't have any of the problems. (I believe duelists were presented as opportunists of a sort?).

Oh, and perhaps another class feature could be access to wealth and high-class privileges? Wealth might be kinda hard as a class feature, since having high starting gold would be immensely overpowered in the beginning and become less and less useful as time went on, but I don't see how you could have him get access to more and more wealth...

Maybe you could get the DM (or yourself, if you're the DM to house rule that, in this campaign, status among the nobility is determined at least partly by level (since things like wizards guilds and many clerical orders are also like this... you could justify it that it makes no sense for the world to not be like this, with levels...).
Remember that I said only partially, so you wouldn't have someone born a minor baron taking the throne because the heir by blood happens to not have acquired many levels of aristocrat yet... in fact, I'd suggest having royalty be an exception.





Manservant
You have a trained manservant (often someone who you have known since childhood) who accompanies you on your adventure; they are fiercely, fanatically loyal, and will die for you if necessary (though they may refuse to do so for pointless or unnecessary reasons.) They are not normally skilled in combat, but will engage if you order them. Treat them as a Commoner whose level is always two less than yours.

I could see that being useful if you ever ran across a situation in which you needed to sacrifice someone (either ritually or on a suicide mission) to... do something important.
However, I don't think you should be able to replace them within a week like they were a flat tire. Familiars take a year and a day before you can spend a day and 100GP to summon a new one, I think paladin mounts are about a month and are easier to replace, and I'm pretty sure almost all such creatures cause an XP loss.




[b]
Aristrocrat Followers who are slain may only be replaced via a Raise Dead, or similar, spell, or at the option of the DM a particularly inspired normal follower may become an Aristrocrat Follower.

You know, if this were used in something like OOTS (I.E. almost everyone can be genre savvy) you'd have practically all their followers wanting to become one of these. It's not just the Maroon Shirt, I can definitely see the appeal to, say, a 1st level warrior follower of a 20th level aristocrat. I'm just not seeing someone in D&D magically jumping 18 levels, this isn't a video game.

Aquillion
2008-08-13, 08:31 PM
I could see that being useful if you ever ran across a situation in which you needed to sacrifice someone (either ritually or on a suicide mission) to... do something important.
However, I don't think you should be able to replace them within a week like they were a flat tire. Familiars take a year and a day before you can spend a day and 100GP to summon a new one, I think paladin mounts are about a month and are easier to replace, and I'm pretty sure almost all such creatures cause an XP loss.Animal Companions can be replaced within a day with no other penalties. Heck, technically you can kill them and eat them yourself if you want, then replace them the next day... although nearly every DM would probably houserule some penalty, or rule it violated your respect for nature or whatever. But anyway, as usual, druids win. (It does fit thematically, though -- death and, yeah, even animals getting eaten is part of the natural cycle.)

What I was going for here was something thematic like that -- aristocrats might have menservants to help them with cunning plans or whatever, but there is a limit to their closeness; it fits the Aristocratic image to be willing to sacrifice their followers in a pinch (if you're good-aligned, of course, you would only do it when strictly necessary, and it would be a heavy duty. But it's part of the burden of being a leader. Whereas an evil aristocrat could sacrifice them for entertainment...) And losing XP makes no sense without some form of supernatural bond.