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View Full Version : [3.5] Good feats for a Beguiler?



Hal
2008-08-12, 10:19 AM
Any suggestions? In my mind, Face-Changer (CM) is a given, and Arcane Strike (CW) seems like a good idea if I'm ever forced into melee combat.

Still, I can't think of what else would be fitting.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-12, 10:23 AM
At first level:

Spellfire Wielder from Magic of Faerun.

Precocious Apprentice if you can use it for a non standard second level spell (Acid or Fire) to fuel a Reserve feat.

Kurald Galain
2008-08-12, 10:26 AM
Improved initiative. Going first = win.

Arcane disciple. Pick up a few blast spells, summon spells, or cleric buffs to taste, and if needed top them off with reserve feets like Acid Splatter or Summon Elemental.

At higher levels, metamagic feats are nice.


Facechanger is fun but not all that useful (since you've got plenty of spontaneous spells that effectively do the same). Don't take Arcane Strike unless you're a gish; if you're forced into melee combat, You're Doing It Wrong and that feat isn't going to help.

Chronicled
2008-08-12, 11:10 AM
Facechanger and Arcane Strike won't be terribly helpful to a Beguiler. If you're forced into melee, you cast Mirror Image or Invisibility and get the heck out of it.

I'm running a 7th level Beguiler right now in an IRC, and have been well-served by Unsettling Enchantment (CM), Mastery of Twisted Shadow (PGtE), and Versatile Spellcaster (RotD). Unsettling Enchantment and Mastery of Twisted Shadow each give a free boost to about half my spell selection that comes in quite handy. Versatile Spellcaster ensures I will never, ever run out of spells. Ever. Action Surge is a given since I'm in Eberron. Here's the sheet (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=54245) if you're curious (or if you don't want to pull the books for the 3 feats I went into detail on, since they're copied on the character sheet).

Arcane Disciple can provide a lot of versatility if you're willing to pump Wis. The Travel Domain is probably the best pick for it, followed by the Creation, Artifice, Healing, and Glory domains. If you go this route, make sure to pick up a Runestaff from the MIC for more uses of the spells. Heck, pumping UMD and having various Runestaves can be quite the superb idea.

Finally, here's the most recent Beguiler's Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=986810), which has plenty of additional suggestions.

FinalJustice
2008-08-12, 11:15 AM
The Spell Focus (and greater): Enchantment is a no-brainer. Combine them with high int and a Veil of Allure (MiC) to skyrocket your DCs.

By the way, how does UMD interacts with Runestaves? Never figured out how to simulate spell-slots to 'fuel' them.

Chronicled
2008-08-12, 11:34 AM
The Spell Focus (and greater): Enchantment is a no-brainer. Combine them with high int and a Veil of Allure (MiC) to skyrocket your DCs.

By the way, how does UMD interacts with Runestaves? Never figured out how to simulate spell-slots to 'fuel' them.

Spell focus works out well, yes. Much more worthwhile than for most any other caster.

You make a DC 20 UMD check (IIRC) to use a Runestaff if the spell you're trying to use isn't on your class list. One of your slots is still used to fuel it.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-12, 11:34 AM
Snag Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, and Shadow Weave Magic for +3 to your save DCs. Assuming 20 Int, at first level that means your DC is 19. :smalleek: Even a Druid will fail that most of the time. (18 wis means save of +6) Are you playing a Gnome? If so, consider going Shadowcraft Mage.

Hal
2008-08-12, 11:35 AM
Thanks for the suggestions.

It's an urban campaign, so Face-Changer seemed helpful since it would give me unlimited uses, AND doesn't have any components that would show I'm casting a spell. If there are alternatives to that idea, I'm open to suggestions.

Arcane Disciple isn't a bad idea, but I'm not sure if I can afford the Wis. However, I don't know yet what the skill point system is (Buy vs. Roll), so I'll have to put that as a maybe.

I should point out that the DM has limited the books available to Core, the Complete series, and PHB2. I might be able to swing Dungeonscape, too, since he's using it to build some adventures for us. (Edit) Oh, and the Spell Compendium, too.

Chronicled
2008-08-12, 11:40 AM
Snag Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, and Shadow Weave Magic for +3 to your save DCs. Assuming 20 Int, at first level that means your DC is 19. :smalleek: Even a Druid will fail that most of the time. (18 wis means save of +6)

The only problem with that route is that suddenly, all the enemies you face will have Iron Will. ALL of them. Just like a meleer who always hits will suddenly find enemies packing much more armor than before.

That's the reason I prefer Beguiler feats that add some versatility rather than raw power. If your DM doesn't adjust the monsters from the MM, then boosting the DCs is your best idea.


It's an urban campaign, so Face-Changer seemed helpful since it would give me unlimited uses, AND doesn't have any components that would show I'm casting a spell. If there are alternatives to that idea, I'm open to suggestions.

That's where Sleight of Hand comes in. Pick up the skill trick Conceal Spellcasting (technically you don't need this according to Races of Stone, but it's helpful when convincing the DM). You'll get a lot of mileage out of it. Disguise Self lasts long enough to be cast ahead of time anyways. Otherwise a 1800 gp Hat of Disguise is still a better idea.

FinalJustice
2008-08-12, 11:48 AM
If you want versatility, consider entering the Rainbow Servant PrC. Granted you lose a bootload of Caster Levels, but you gain domains and, at 16th, you get all clerics spells to your spell-list. Then you can proceed to do whatever you want.

Chronicled
2008-08-12, 11:53 AM
If you want versatility, consider entering the Rainbow Servant PrC. Granted you lose a bootload of Caster Levels, but you gain domains and, at 16th, you get all clerics spells to your spell-list. Then you can proceed to do whatever you want.

The 4 levels of spellcasting aren't worth losing, especially since you're only getting 2 skill points/level.

Now, if the DM can be convinced that text beats table, (especially since it hasn't been errata'd), then it's worth taking. Otherwise, pure Beguiler or Shadowcraft Mage is the better option.

valadil
2008-08-12, 12:08 PM
You could try a magic bloodline for more spells known. Most of the spells have will saves, but there are some nice ones in there for a beguiler.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-12, 12:11 PM
The Nexus Method feat from mid level up:
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Nexus_Method,Dragon

FinalJustice
2008-08-12, 12:52 PM
It would be REALLY GOOD, but requires preparing spells, beguilers are spontaneous. Props for finding this feat though, IMHO insanely good.

What about Obtain Familiar? Clearly unoptimal, but it adds some versatility, if you manage to weasel an improved familiar with the DM, better.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-12, 01:01 PM
Good point (I generally ignore that requirement for spontaneous casters) always a good heritage feat like the Axiomatic, Earth,Fiendish or Plant Bloodline:

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Axiomatic_Bloodline,all

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Earth_Bloodline,Dragon

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Fiendish_Bloodline,Dragon

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Plant_Bloodline,Dragon

which is really nice on top of something like Arcane Disciple Spell Domain.

Always thought the Beguiler class should be able to get a Beguiler FRCS Shining South as a Familiar from L7 using the Obtain Familiar Feat.

Chronos
2008-08-12, 09:13 PM
What about Obtain Familiar? Clearly unoptimal, but it adds some versatility, if you manage to weasel an improved familiar with the DM, better.Familiars are nice for wizards, but they're just plain awesome for beguilers. Remember, your familiar has all of your skill ranks, so you've basically got an extra skillmonkey, who can communicate with you discreetly, looks innocuous, and can fit into small places and possibly fly.

If nothing else, you can always have your familiar use Aid Another on all of your own skill checks, since it'll almost always be able to make a DC 10 check for whatever you're trying to do. A stacking +2 to all of your skill checks is easily well worth the cost of a single feat, plus another +2 to Listen and Spot, plus yet another +3 in some other skill (or equivalent benefit), depending on the familiar chosen. Plus, of course, all of the other uses for having a little companion accompanying you.

Hal
2008-08-12, 09:45 PM
Familiars are nice for wizards, but they're just plain awesome for beguilers. Remember, your familiar has all of your skill ranks, so you've basically got an extra skillmonkey, who can communicate with you discreetly, looks innocuous, and can fit into small places and possibly fly.

If nothing else, you can always have your familiar use Aid Another on all of your own skill checks, since it'll almost always be able to make a DC 10 check for whatever you're trying to do. A stacking +2 to all of your skill checks is easily well worth the cost of a single feat, plus another +2 to Listen and Spot, plus yet another +3 in some other skill (or equivalent benefit), depending on the familiar chosen. Plus, of course, all of the other uses for having a little companion accompanying you.

Is an improved familiar worth it if you're starting at higher level, or is that a wasted feat when you can stick with the basic animal?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-12, 09:51 PM
Depends on your game and the familiar.

Arcane Disciple Spells would let your Beguiler cast Anyspell (Greater) which woud allow him to cast Call Faithful Guardiands (BoED) Coure, Musteval or Lantern Archons to serve for a year.

One of the Variants allows a wizard to have an Animal Companion instead of a familiar so if you used that mechanic Obtain Familiar could become Obtain Animal Companion.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard

Sorcerer/Wizard
A sorcerer or wizard might desire a more durable companion to accompany him on excursions into the wilderness.
Gain
Animal companion (as druid; treat sorcerer or wizard as a druid of half his class level).
Lose
Familiar.

Chronos
2008-08-12, 11:16 PM
One of the Variants allows a wizard to have an Animal Companion instead of a familiar so if you used that mechanic Obtain Familiar could become Obtain Animal Companion.Or, for a less convoluted route, you could just take the Wild Cohort feat. But animal companions fill a completely different role than familiars: An animal companion is physically a lot more impressive than a familiar, but they're no smarter than the ordinary version of the animal, so things like helping you with skill checks are probably out of the question.


Is an improved familiar worth it if you're starting at higher level, or is that a wasted feat when you can stick with the basic animal?The biggest advantage of most improved familiars over the basic ones is that they're better in combat, but unless you're playing a gish, even an improved familiar still isn't going to be all that great. You get just as much benefit skill-wise from the regular ones, and the regular ones are usually smaller than the improved ones, which can actually be a plus. So I personally wouldn't bother with an improved familiar.

Collin152
2008-08-12, 11:20 PM
So, what familiar would you recommend?
A Raven's ability to speak I feel is going to have some kind of skill-related application.

Frosty
2008-08-12, 11:38 PM
A Raven familiar can use your UMD skill to wield wands. Uberness.

namo
2008-08-13, 08:50 AM
The biggest advantage of most improved familiars over the basic ones is that they're better in combat, but unless you're playing a gish, even an improved familiar still isn't going to be all that great. You get just as much benefit skill-wise from the regular ones, and the regular ones are usually smaller than the improved ones, which can actually be a plus. So I personally wouldn't bother with an improved familiar.

Imps, Quasits and Coure Eladrins (BoED) are pretty good improved familiars for a Beguiler : they are sneaky (Tiny + invisibility or incorporealness), they have hands (for wands or other magic items - a Raven will only be able to activate a wand if the DM is nice about it), they fly and have a few nice SLAs...

They are not must-have either since they do require 2 feats.

Treguard
2008-08-13, 09:46 AM
Hooray for Obtain Familiar love! I had an arabian themed beguiler who had a little monkey familiar (just a re-skin of an already existing familiar) that could clamber into little nooks and scout ahead.

Hal
2008-08-13, 11:13 AM
The biggest advantage of most improved familiars over the basic ones is that they're better in combat, but unless you're playing a gish, even an improved familiar still isn't going to be all that great. You get just as much benefit skill-wise from the regular ones, and the regular ones are usually smaller than the improved ones, which can actually be a plus. So I personally wouldn't bother with an improved familiar.

Okay, this question is probably outside the scope of the thread, but I'm the OP and I'm curious.

Some of the improved familiars are just fiendish/celestial versions of a normal familiar. It seems like you could argue that adding that template to any of the normal familiars counts. My question is, are there any other equivalent templates it might be worth arguing for as an "Improved Familiar" upgrade?

only1doug
2008-08-13, 12:38 PM
Okay, this question is probably outside the scope of the thread, but I'm the OP and I'm curious.

Some of the improved familiars are just fiendish/celestial versions of a normal familiar. It seems like you could argue that adding that template to any of the normal familiars counts. My question is, are there any other equivalent templates it might be worth arguing for as an "Improved Familiar" upgrade?

Draconic

Various Undead

there are probably others

Hal
2008-08-13, 01:29 PM
Draconic

Various Undead

there are probably others

I don't plan on playing an evil character, so undead is probably not an option.

Chronicled
2008-08-13, 01:37 PM
Ask for the Dark template, and get it on a hummingbird. Now you have a familiar that can go anywhere, see anything, and never get seen in turn. The +10 foot speed increase on a hummingbird has fun potential too :smalltongue:.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-13, 01:44 PM
Okay, this question is probably outside the scope of the thread, but I'm the OP and I'm curious.

Some of the improved familiars are just fiendish/celestial versions of a normal familiar. It seems like you could argue that adding that template to any of the normal familiars counts. My question is, are there any other equivalent templates it might be worth arguing for as an "Improved Familiar" upgrade?

The standard +1 Celestial template bumps them up to L3 based on the Celestial Familiar feat in BoED.

Lantern Archons fluctuate a little depending on the source book in BoED they are L7 as a Celestial Familiar but equivalent to a fifth level cohort while Coure and Mustevals are equivalent to seventh level cohorts.

Hal
2008-08-13, 02:45 PM
Ask for the Dark template, and get it on a hummingbird. Now you have a familiar that can go anywhere, see anything, and never get seen in turn. The +10 foot speed increase on a hummingbird has fun potential too :smalltongue:.

The source on that template?

Chronicled
2008-08-13, 02:49 PM
The source on that template?

Tome of Magic. It's a +1 that gives several skill bonuses, cold resistance, +10 speed to all movement modes and HiPS in shadowy areas (which I think as written meant anything but direct sunlight).

Hal
2008-08-13, 02:58 PM
Tome of Magic. It's a +1 that gives several skill bonuses, cold resistance, +10 speed to all movement modes and HiPS in shadowy areas (which I think as written meant anything but direct sunlight).

Is it possible to find a link for that? None of the players (or DM) in my group own that book.

Thurbane
2008-08-13, 09:45 PM
The hippogriff Improved Familiar from CW isn't bad for a Beguiler, since they don't get Fly (or equivalent) on their spell list...

Hal
2008-08-13, 09:59 PM
The hippogriff Improved Familiar from CW isn't bad for a Beguiler, since they don't get Fly (or equivalent) on their spell list...

While I'd normally agree, it's an urban campaign. Something tells me that riding a hippogriff around is going to be impractical.

Chronos
2008-08-13, 11:12 PM
Buckbeak seemed to handle London well enough.