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View Full Version : Gurps - 4th or 3rd?



Kosmopolite
2008-08-12, 01:11 PM
Hi, all.

As I've said in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87542), I've been trying to write a campaign for the first time. I've got a lot of the plot down, but haven't started applying rules to it yet. I was wondering what the difference was between GURPS 3rd and 4th, and which you'd recommend?

dariathalon
2008-08-12, 02:15 PM
4th, definitely 4th. The differences between the two editions are not drastic, but most of the problems that were inherent in 3rd were fixed in 4th. In 4th, it feels much more like one unified system whereas in 3rd, it was difficult to mix things from too many books without serious thought. For example, mixing magic and psionics was a pretty serious mistake. If you have more specific questions I can try to help more.

Knaight
2008-08-12, 03:42 PM
Fourth mixes stuff better better. Although if you don't particularly want to play GURPS I would advise you avoid it altogether. (http://www.fudgerpg.com)

warmachine
2008-08-12, 04:52 PM
4e. A lot of the broken stuff got fixed, such as psionics, and, as others have written, it's better integrated. If you've got 3e books, they're easily converted.

Another problem with 3e was everyone being high DX and/or IQ generalists. This has been fixed with Talents, which are cheaper than DX or IQ but only improve a set of skills. This encourages specialists.

Kosmopolite
2008-08-13, 08:26 AM
So that's pretty unanimously 4th, then.

How is it as a system (particularly to GM for the first time)?

What's Fudge like?

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-13, 09:16 AM
I can't see any advantage in 3rd over 4th. All 4th does is pack more info better into one rulebook, and smooth the system with a lot of minor changes. It's the same game, but better.

As a system, it's freaking cumbersome. I always have to keep flipping through the rulebooks for the first several sessions, and that's way more demanding with GURPS. (It could be worse, though. Like Rolemaster.)

If you streamline it out, it can be way smoother to run, but just going through the rules and picking what to use and what not is a huge job, in my opinion.

Anyr
2008-08-13, 10:45 AM
I can't see any advantage in 3rd over 4th. All 4th does is pack more info better into one rulebook, and smooth the system with a lot of minor changes. It's the same game, but better.

As a system, it's freaking cumbersome. I always have to keep flipping through the rulebooks for the first several sessions, and that's way more demanding with GURPS. (It could be worse, though. Like Rolemaster.)

If you streamline it out, it can be way smoother to run, but just going through the rules and picking what to use and what not is a huge job, in my opinion.

One advantage that the system has, however, is its modularity. Yes, there are masses of rules to handle things like pinning someone to the ground or being set on fire and suchlike, but most of it is dispensable. The core mechanics of GURPS are easy to learn and remember and most of the number crunching comes during character creation. The GM is free to use as much or as little detail in resolution as they wish.

It's usually a good idea to ease into the system gradually, especially where combat is concerned. Basic combat is, well, basic, but it takes practice to remember the rules needed when the players try something new like a judo throw or a full extension lunge. A GM screen with the common modifiers listed is a big timesaver as far as things like hit location and wounding modifiers go.

In the end it all depends on how much detail you and the players actually want. If you want to know the exact technique needed to pluck an opponent's eye out of its socket then you can find it. Likewise, if the exact rules for radiation exposure or overland movement bore you to tears then they can be tossed without a problem. It's a matter of taste.

warmachine
2008-08-13, 12:23 PM
One thing you must remember is that GURPS is a toolkit system, not a works-out-of-the-box package. A GM has to decide what campaign power level and style he wants. He will then see that half the character traits, skills and optional rules don't apply. For example, Trained by a Master is essential in high-kicking, kung fu adventure but gun skills are out. The reverse applies in a WWII. Present the players with a cut down list and this helps them understand the kind of campaign. For the same reason, preparing templates and Talents also helps. The expansion books that SJG publish will help with that as well as explaining genre conventions.

Also, GURPS is a munchkin's wet dream. You can't rely on the rules to mechanically block genre and roleplaying abuses. For example, the rule mechanics do not stop a PC with Wealth (Struggling) and Jumper(Time) from getting rich from betting abuse. Munchkins may obtain points by buying Disadvantages then 'forget' to hurt themselves with those Disadvantages. The GM must keep an eye on such people. Mind you, these Disadvantages are a wet dream for the roleplayers who'll use them properly.

valadil
2008-08-13, 01:28 PM
The other trick munchkins use is that they'll find several rules for picking up an ability and going with the cheaper option. This gives a huge advantage to the player willing to spend the most time elbow deep in rules books. I highly suggest making characters with the players instead of setting them loose on your books.

I've played 3rd and 4th ed. The difference between the systems was much less drastic than the difference between the two GMs I played under. Just be aware that you'll be using a subset of the rules instead of all of GURPs and you should be fine.

only1doug
2008-08-13, 01:50 PM
<snip>

Also, GURPS is a munchkin's wet dream. You can't rely on the rules to mechanically block genre and roleplaying abuses. For example, the rule mechanics do not stop a PC with Wealth (Struggling) and Jumper(Time) from getting rich from betting abuse. Munchkins may obtain points by buying Disadvantages then 'forget' to hurt themselves with those Disadvantages. The GM must keep an eye on such people. <snip>.

I agree with warmachine, its a nice system but open to abuse if the GM is lazy.

there is a rule mechanic for compensating for those abuses but it relys on the GM realising he should act.
Example: the rule mechanics do not stop a PC with Wealth (Struggling) and Jumper(Time) from getting rich from betting abuse. the GM will notice the character is no longer entitled to (struggling) and instead counts as (Filthy Rich). this is a 60 point difference and the GM assigns the player a 60 point disadvantage to compensate (wanted by powerful organisation: organised crime) his wins over the years have been noticed by those who control the bookies and they are VERY interested in speaking to a man who knows to much and never seems to age.

dariathalon
2008-08-13, 04:39 PM
The other trick munchkins use is that they'll find several rules for picking up an ability and going with the cheaper option. This gives a huge advantage to the player willing to spend the most time elbow deep in rules books. I highly suggest making characters with the players instead of setting them loose on your books.

I don't think this is so true with 4th edition. There may be a very few cases where this is true still, but with the streamlining done in 4th edition, this problem was done away with for the most part. I'll agree though in 3rd edition it was a BIG problem.

As far as other general comments about the system, I've made quite a few in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87507)recently. Rather than quoting myself or retyping it all here, I'll just point you that way. Though if you have any other questions, I can try to answer them.

Ulzgoroth
2008-08-13, 04:46 PM
I think the official GURPS position on building the same ability more than one way is that any way you do it is acceptable, and picking the best construction of the ability that you want is more feature than bug.

If you can construct the same exact ability two different (valid) ways with different prices, that's non-ideal...and you should probably take the cheaper one unless you have doubts about its design.

I get the impression that the Imbuements PDF is a huge example of the last. From the GURPS forums, it seems like imbuements do things which, at best, would be very messy and extremely expensive to build from the core rules.

Chronicled
2008-08-13, 06:42 PM
What's Fudge like?

Utterly awesome. You can get the Spirit of the Century SRD for free online; it's possibly the best tabletop RPG ruleset I've seen.