Deadlocked: Paragon Circuit (4E) - 5-Way Free For All Battle [Archive]

stupnick

2008-08-12, 02:03 PM

copying character sheets over here for quick refrence
Halia - Janlia MoonShadow, Half-Elf Rogue -- Player: stupnick (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=64578)
Velna Katilius, Human Wizard -- Player: Kiara LeSabre (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=73526)
Morthos Felhaven, Tiefling Paladin -- Player: Osiris_Shadowblade (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=70393)
Erradran Silverhand, Elf Ranger -- Player: the quinn (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=73349)
Buggy, Bugbear Fighter -- Player: mayonase (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=73161)

the quinn

2008-08-12, 02:04 PM

Initiative
[roll0]
[roll1]
Combat advantage for those who haven't acted in first round

Blackdrop

2008-08-12, 02:32 PM

[roll0]
[roll1]
Best of two

stupnick

2008-08-12, 04:33 PM

btw Mayo, your initiative isn't +27 it's +17....

mayonase

2008-08-12, 04:38 PM

[I have a daily Utility that gives me a +10 to one Init roll. *shrug* Fighters are hardcore.]

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-12, 05:11 PM

[roll0]
[roll1]

(best of the two)

Doesn't grant +2 to hit to those with combat advantage (Uncanny Dodge)

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-12, 05:13 PM

Mayo has a higher initiative bonus, so he goes before me, and then I'm immediately after.

mayonase

2008-08-12, 05:39 PM

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Combat Order:
Erradran Silverhand, Elf Ranger -- Player: the quinn
Morthos Felhaven, Tiefling Paladin -- Player: Osiris_Shadowblade
Buggy, Bugbear Fighter -- Player: mayonase
Velna Katilius, Human Wizard -- Player: Kiara LeSabre
Halia - Janlia MoonShadow, Half-Elf Rogue -- Player: stupnic

Blackdrop

2008-08-12, 05:40 PM

So posting order is:

Quinn
Osiris
Mayo
Kiara
Stupnick

Edit: D'oh! Ninja'd.

mayonase

2008-08-12, 05:51 PM

Muwahahaha!!!

*realizes Osiris posts first and has Combat Advantage*

...I mean, I'm sorry :smallfrown: .

Blackdrop

2008-08-12, 05:55 PM

Well, I have Uncanny Dodge so, no bonus to hit for youuuuu!

the quinn

2008-08-12, 06:14 PM

Let's do this friends, lets have a good fight, the old elf says,
Let the best warrior, expert, or caster win!!!

Lets takes a few shots at buggy, the giant bugbear that scares the crap out of Erradran
Minor action: Designate buggy as Quarry
Standard Action:
[roll0] [roll1]
[roll2] rollv=damage]1d10+16[/rollv]
[roll3]
Oops messed up on damage there
If one hits buggy is immobilized till the start of my next turn
Move action:
step forward one square

the quinn

2008-08-12, 06:16 PM

[roll0]
hopefully this is a good start

the quinn

2008-08-12, 06:17 PM

Nuts...
Third times the charm
[roll0]
Oh... and if some one with a melee weapon moves next to me I am using
Immediate Interrupt: weave through the fray

Blackdrop

2008-08-12, 06:30 PM

Move Action:
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Minor Action: Divine Challenge
Standard Action: Certain Justice
-Attack: Str+4 vs. AC [roll0]
-Hit: [roll1] You are dazed and weakened as long as the mark stays in place.

Blackdrop

2008-08-12, 06:32 PM

Oh! I crit. You take the full...20...damage. :smallsigh:

mayonase

2008-08-12, 06:39 PM

[Plus Magical Crit damage; I'll post my actions in a couple hours, which will primarily consist of me holding my foot and sweating.]

mayonase

2008-08-12, 08:35 PM

Grimacing as he pries the arrow pinning his foot to the ground, Buggy hangs back and takes a moment to drink a potion from his belt and ready himself for the oncoming fight.

Standard Action: Total defense (+2 to Everything Defensive)

Minor Action: Activate Trollskin Armor Regeneration Power (5HP per Round)

Minor Action: Drink a Potion of Vitality - +25HP

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 01:50 AM

Finding herself already in an awkward spot, Velna grinds her teeth and glares bloody murder at her attacker.

"If you want me as your opponent so badly ..."

"Sleep, and ..."

"Spectral Ram!"

Spending an action point for an extra action ...

Sleep: [roll0] vs. Will (+4 to attack from Battle Mage Action)
Spectral Ram: [roll1] vs. Fortitude (+4 from Battle Mage Action, +3 from Action Surge)

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 01:53 AM

And the effects of those are ...

Sleep: Slowed (save ends), and if you fail your save against that, unconscious (save ends); further, as a free action, Velna uses her orb specialization to apply a -5 penalty to the save, and she applies a further -2 penalty from Spell Focus, for a net -7 penalty to save

Spectral Ram: [roll0] damage, slide 3 squares directly back the way you came from, and fall prone

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 01:57 AM

(sorry ... make that two diagonally back, then one straight up on the map, because you can't actually go a full three diagonally back :smalltongue:)

stupnick

2008-08-13, 09:44 AM

well i am so happy people are ignoring the rogue.... that's the best thing since sliced bread

Move Action
Fleeting Ghost.

Minor Action
Hide In Plain Sight - I am invisible until I move.

Spending Action Point for 2 attacks

Standard Action
Feinting Flurry on Velna
[roll]120+28 vs Will
[roll1]
Effect: you take a -5 penalty on all defenses against me

Slaying Strike on Velna
[roll2] vs AC-5
[roll3] + [roll4]
If you are bloodied after the first attack, you also take [roll5] + [roll6] and I can crit on this attack with a 17-20

stupnick

2008-08-13, 09:46 AM

rolling first attack roll since it didn't work
[roll0]

so you take a total of 79 points of damage... damn i rolled badly : (

mayonase

2008-08-13, 10:34 AM

[If you move/force movement upon others, can you make sure to update the map? It's getting a little confusing tracking who's where.]

the quinn

2008-08-13, 11:34 AM

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"HOW IS YOUR FOOT THERE FUR BALL?"
lets do what is tried and true.
3 Shots that will knock some sense out of the giant ball of fur
Confounding arrows!!!

first of all buggy it is a standard action to activate troll skin
Minor Action: Designate Halia as second hunter's quarry.
Standard action: Confounding Arrows
[roll0][roll1]
[roll2][roll3]
[roll4][roll5]
[roll6]
Miss: The target is dazed (save ends)
If One hits: The target is dazed (save ends)
If Two hit: The target is stunned (save ends)
If Three hit: The target is stunned (save ends) + 2[W] [roll7]
Minor action: Designate Morthos as Third Hunter's quarry.
Immediate action (Response): use weave through the fray if a melee weapon user moves next to me
FYI: Quarry come from battle field archer's battle field experience page 113

the quinn

2008-08-13, 11:36 AM

Use elven accuracy to reroll missed shot:
[roll0][roll1]

the quinn

2008-08-13, 11:37 AM

Nuts... Use archer's action to reroll missed attack and action point is used up
[roll0][roll1]

mayonase

2008-08-13, 11:56 AM

[? ...*rereads rules*... ...Why did I have it listed as a Minor...? I stand corrected; no Full Defensive action. I used my second Minor action to throw an obscene gesture at the Elf.]

stupnick

2008-08-13, 12:40 PM

btw i didn't move at all.. keep me where i started...

if i move i will update the map. according to fleeting ghost, it states you can move.. doesn't say i have to.

also 2 notes,

you can only designate your closest enemy as your quarry. the only way to designate someone else (a second quarry) is if they are closer than your original quarry... else you don't have a target for your 2nd quarry...

and, since i am invisible you can not designate me as your quarry. nearest enemy means nearest enemy you can see. so if you have someone closer to you but they are invis or behind a wall and you can't see them or don't know they are they, you can't designate them as your quarry.

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 03:50 PM

Correction on the map update:

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And hey, it's not my fault everyone is attacking me, stupnick. I kind of have to ignore the rogue when a defender's in my face. :smallyuk:

Blackdrop

2008-08-13, 03:53 PM

That -7 is just mean spirited kiara. Well here we go:
[roll0] Save vs. Slow
If failed:
[roll1] Save vs. Unconscious
Fully updated movement:
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Hey stupnick, I've been looking it over and there is no way you could get in range to hit Velna with your hand crossbow.
This purely if I saved:

Minor action: Potion of Vitality +25 Hp
Move action:
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Standard Action: Crusader's Boom
-Attack: Strength vs. AC [roll2]
-Hit: [roll3]
-Miss: Half damage
Effect: Me and My allies adjacent to me gain a +1 power bonus to attack rolls until the end of the encounter.
Remember this is only if I made my saves

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 03:56 PM

Move Action
Fleeting Ghost.
[roll0]

Minor Action
Hide In Plain Sight - I am invisible until I move.

Wait, a question? How did you do this without concealment or cover? Fleeting Ghost doesn't give you the ability to hide without concealment or cover, and you can't use Hide in Plain Sight at all unless you're hidden first.

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 04:02 PM

Osiris: No, the hand crossbow has a base range of 20/10, 25/15 with Far Shot, and with Distant Shot, it may as well just be 25. I'm not out of range.

mayonase

2008-08-13, 04:04 PM

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 04:07 PM

[Osiris, unless I'm mistaken, you actually make those saves at the end of the round, meaning you get a full slowed round to do your thing. You are close enough to Velna to spend a move and then do a Charge, or use some other Paladin power that lets you shift and attack or something before you black out.

Actually, he's right about that, too, although wrong about the move and charge. You could spend a move to stand (I knocked you prone, remember? :smalltongue:), but you can't charge because Velna is more than two squares away.

Since you already rolled two failed saves, it would be reasonable to say that one was the save granted by the Potion of Vitality, and the other was your failed save at the end of your turn (whatever you decide to do), leaving you unconscious and waiting for next turn to roll a save again.

The good news is you still have a move action and a standard action to spend aside from the potion if you want. The bad news is the move is going to be spent just standing up, and you have a speed of 2.

mayonase

2008-08-13, 04:13 PM

Feeling dazed and confused, and more than a little p***ed off, Buggy finds his feet and makes a wild charge against the Elf who has been attacking him, wielding his spear to show him the difference between an arrow prick and a good piking.

Charge [roll0]
Damage [roll1] plus [roll2]

Daze Save [roll3]

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stupnick

2008-08-13, 04:22 PM

ok, saves are done at the end of that creatures next turn.. not at the end of the round.

so you have at least 1 turn with those effects unless someone helps you get out of it.

also. if you read fleeting ghost
Fleeting Ghost Rogue Utility 2
You are stealthy and fleet of foot at the same time.
At-Will ✦ Martial
Move Action Personal
Prerequisite: You must be trained in Stealth.
Effect: You can move your speed and make a Stealth check.
You do not take the normal penalty from movement on
this check.

the power itself allows you to make a stealth check. it does not state you may make a stealth check if able. it states, "you can move your speed and make a stealth check" so therefor i can make a stealth check, since i get to make a stealth check i am hidden at least for that second against anyone who i beat. and then i use hide in plain sight for invisibility since i am now hidden, even for just a split second.

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 04:41 PM

the power itself allows you to make a stealth check.

Ah, well, if you were going by that assumption, you need to select new move and minor actions because you're mistaken:

http://www.enworld.org/wiki/index.php/4E_Customer_Service_Answers

(Look under the Fleeting Ghost heading)

The only thing Fleeting Ghost does is give you the ability to move your speed without penalty when you make Stealth checks and not just one-half your speed.

So I'll go ahead and remove the sneak attack damage on Velna.

stupnick

2008-08-13, 04:50 PM

i'm sorry, but customer service is not a valid place for answers regarding issues with the game. they have been proven incorrect on NUMEROUS occasion. until this appears in the errata you have to play it according to the book.

and if you want to use them as the example, they completely contridict your elemental maw teleport theory.. so they are wrong on that according to you. you can not pick and choose what pieces of thier info you want to use

Wizard:p.167; Elemental Maw
Q: For the teleportation effect of Elemental Maw (in addition, you teleport that creature to a square within 20 squares of you), can you teleport the target vertically? For instance, can you in that case teleport the target 20 squares into the air, causing them to fall and take another 10d10 falling damage?

A: Yes, you may teleport that creature vertically.

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 04:57 PM

i'm sorry, but customer service is not a valid place for answers regarding issues with the game. they have been proven incorrect on NUMEROUS occasion. until this appears in the errata you have to play it according to the book.

Okay, you can move your speed and make a Stealth check. Let's refer to Steath:

Cover or Concealment: Unless a creature is distracted, you must have cover against or concealment from the creature to make a Stealth check. You have to maintain cover or concealment to remain unnoticed. If a creature has unblocked line of sight to you (that is, you lack any cover or concealment), the creature automatically sees you (no Perception check required).

We all have unblocked line of sight to you, so we automatically see you (no Perception check required). Nothing in Fleeting Ghost contradicts this. It says you can make a Stealth check, but it doesn't say you're exempt from needing cover or concealment to avoid being automatically seen.

Since you're automatically seen, you aren't hidden, and you have to be hidden to use Hide in Plain Sight.

Seriously, it's a level 2 at-will utility power that's just there to give you the same effect as Secret Stride. What you want is Shadow Stride, which is a warlock class feature.

stupnick

2008-08-13, 05:03 PM

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 05:16 PM

technically yes, and technically no....

Fleeting ghost
Effect: You can move your speed and make a Stealth check.
You do not take the normal penalty from movement on
this check.

Shadow Stride
Effect: You must be hiding to use this power. You can move
your speed. At the end of that movement, if you have
cover, you can make a Stealth check with no penalty for
moving. If you make the Stealth check, you stay hidden
during your movement.

now why does shadow stride specify that you need cover, and fleeting ghost does not... from fleeting ghost you are actually hidden so i can use hide in plain sight. according to examples from the book it is allowable.

The point of Shadow Stride is what I just bolded: you stay hidden during your movement if you have cover at the end of it. In other words, you can cross open spaces with no cover and concealment without losing your hidden status as long as you end your movement in cover. That's a level 10 utility power, and only then are you finally gaining the ability to cross open spaces without losing your hidden status, and only then if you end your move in cover.

The point of Shadow Stride is also what I bolded: it exempts you from the penalty from a full move. You can always attempt a check, whether it makes sense or not! On my turn, I could have Velna make a Stealth check. Everyone would automatically succeed on their Perception checks, but I could do it if I wished.

A more realistic example that could actually happen in a game: Sneaky McRogue has cover relative to someone he's spying on, so he makes a Stealth check. Unbeknownst to Sneaky, Batman McWizard is watching him while under the cover of a Greater Invisibility spell. Sneaky does not have cover relative to Batman. Sneaky still makes his check -- he can make Stealth checks any time he likes! -- but Batman automatically succeeds on his Perception check (no check required!) because Sneaky doesn't have cover or concealment relative to him.

Please stop trying to turn a level 2 utility power into something stronger than a level 10 one, when it's very obviously not intended to work that way and doesn't even work that way RAW. That's some pretty stinky cheese, honestly.

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 05:27 PM

Anyway, Osiris, you're still free to perform a move and a standard action before falling unconscious, and you're still prone and slowed. Care to do anything before Velna acts?

stupnick

2008-08-13, 05:30 PM

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 05:38 PM

well i am playing the power the way it is written in the book. i apologize if it isn't how you would like to see it. but i will play it your way, against what the book states, so we can move on with the game.

if that is the case then my whole action woudl be invalidated as i would not have done that action if those conditions didn't exist, and not to mention this arena very much so gives the rogue a complete disadvatage.

so i see it 1 of two ways, my action happened as described, or 2 i get to retake my whole action as the end of my action relied upon the beginning.

Fine, if your entire action is going to be completely different now (not just the same attacks again after a different move action), then retake it. And no, even if you keep saying it, your interpretation is not RAW because Shadow Stride offers no exemption from the cover or concealment requirement anywhere in its text, and you could already attempt a Stealth check any time you wished, whether success was possible or not.

Yes, these arenas are a huge disadvantage for rogues in most cases. I commented on that earlier in the epic circuit thread.

stupnick

2008-08-13, 06:12 PM

standard action bluff check, only need to beat a 23 to be able to stealth vs buggy..
[roll0]

i use my stealth check to stealth i already rolled in my first time trying these actions. which then let's me use hide in plain sight.

the quinn

2008-08-13, 06:23 PM

By the way I just contacted wizards and they told me that you don't have to follow the regular rules
Sputnick is correct I can forward you the email if you give me you emails
But sputnick is correct

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 06:28 PM

By the way I just contacted wizards and they told me that you don't have to follow the regular rules
Sputnick is correct I can forward you the email if you give me you emails
But sputnick is correct

Okay, assuming this isn't Customer Service (which sputnick already said isn't a useful authority, and besides, they'd be directly contradicting themselves), I'd love to see this as well as the exact wording of your e-mail to them. I PMed my e-mail.

mayonase

2008-08-13, 06:29 PM

[Are you attacking me this round? Or just invisible to me for future actions? Either way, I believe it's Kiara's go now.]

Blackdrop

2008-08-13, 06:29 PM

Yeah I'm going to use the Turn the Tide Utility power. It lets me make a saving throw against any effect that a save can end. Since I'm still just slowed at this point, if I make the throw to resist it then I ignore the unconscious effect correct? And does you -7 still apply?

[roll0]

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 06:32 PM

[Are you attacking me this round? Or just invisible to me for future actions? Either way, I believe it's Kiara's go now.]

Actually, everyone rolls Insight against his Bluff check, and he has to beat all of our results:

"As a standard action, make a Bluff check opposed by the Insight check of an enemy that can see you (if multiple enemies can see you, your Bluff check is opposed by each enemy’s Insight check). If you succeed, you create a diversion and can immediately make a Stealth check to hide."

But I'm waiting for Quinn to e-mail me this source that isn't Customer Service that says that stupnick is right.

stupnick

2008-08-13, 06:32 PM

i would love to see them, if you want to pm them here, or [email protected]

and it's sTuPnick...

and i am not attacking anyone buggy.... i am invisible vs everyone

stupnick

2008-08-13, 06:34 PM

yup everyone needs to roll a insight check vs 33, if i beat 1 person i am invisible...

mayonase

2008-08-13, 06:37 PM

[Time for a 20! Insight Check: [roll0]]

EDIT: :smalleek:

...I can't believe that worked...

EDIT 2: ...I BLEW MY 20 ON THAT?!?!?!?

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 06:38 PM

yup everyone needs to roll a insight check vs 33, if i beat 1 person i am invisible...

Actually, you technically have to beat everyone, RAW, or you don't even get to hide. However, I think it would be a reasonable houserule to say that you can hide and then become invisible to anyone who fails the Insight check. There's no special reason why a high-Insight person just being in the area would make you less able to pull your trick against low-Insight people, any more than a low-Insight person just being in the area would make a high-Insight person suddenly blind.

Mind you, each person you successfully Bluff still has a passive Perception check to beat with your Stealth check. However, while Insight allows you to actively roll to beat a Bluff check without any action spent, an active Perception check requires a standard action. So you only have to beat passive Perception.

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 06:40 PM

Insight: [roll0]

stupnick

2008-08-13, 06:45 PM

well technically i am hidden against anyone that fails. the use of my hide in plain sight actually turns me invisible vs everyone...

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 06:46 PM

well technically i am hidden against anyone that fails. the use of my hide in plain sight actually turns me invisible vs everyone...

Thus the "bring along a blind rat" tactic was born!

Blind rat automatically fails Insight and Perception. Huzzah! Automatically invisible vs. everyone!

Yeah no.

Edit: And Velna's passive Perception is 30. She falls for the Bluff but sees through the hide attempt anyway.

stupnick

2008-08-13, 06:52 PM

actually yes....that's why they said an enemy is only an enemy if it is a threat against you... that's why you can't bring rats and use warlock curse on them to get bonuses.. b/c they aren't an enemy..

because i distracted you i am hidden for my actions this round.. since i am hidden i am now invisible.. it does not state you are invis vs that enemy, it stats you are invisible.. it's the same as if i used a cloak of invis.. i just had to use my standard action 1/encounter, and also had to use my level 6 utility... i am actually invis even if you have straight sight to me.. you can be standing next to me and i am still invis..

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 06:56 PM

actually yes....

because i distracted you i am hidden for my actions this round.. since i am hidden i am now invisible.. it does not state you are invis vs that enemy, it stats you are invisible.. it's the same as if i used a cloak of invis.. i just had to use my standard action 1/encounter, and also had to use my level 6 utility... i am actually invis even if you have straight sight to me.. you can be standing next to me and i am still invis..

Oh for God's sake.

Create a Diversion to Hide: Once per combat encounter, you can create a diversion to hide. As a standard action, make a Bluff check opposed by the Insight check of an enemy that can see you (if multiple enemies can see you, your Bluff check is opposed by each enemy’s Insight check). If you succeed, you create a diversion and can immediately make a Stealth check to hide.

You made the Stealth check. It failed vs. Velna's passive Perception. It doesn't say anywhere in that text that if you succeed on the Bluff check, you're automatically hidden! It just gives you the ability to attempt a Stealth check without cover or concealment!

And as for being invisible vs. everyone if you beat one person, then you may as well just say it always works because all you have to do is carry a blind rat, and you'll always succeed and become invisible no matter how perceptive everyone else is just because the blind rat can't see you. Which is stupid.

stupnick

2008-08-13, 07:00 PM

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 07:13 PM

i am invisible vs everyone...

i already explained the blind rat thing you brought up.

the benifit of the bluff check is you are distracted and looking the other way.. you don't get a preception check.. you get the insight check.. till the end of my turn i am technically hidden.. there for i use hide in plain sight and am INVIS... not just against them.. but i am INVISIBLE...

You really need to read the rules. When you make a Stealth check, it is always opposed by passive Perception. You don't get free of that with the Bluff check (nothing in the game gets you free of it unless the person is unconscious); you just get to attempt the Stealth check without facing automatic failure. However, the check wasn't good enough to beat passive Perception.

And if you want to stick to strict RAW and not a nicer houserule, then you actually fail completely if you even fail against one person. Why? Because it says right there in the book that your checks are opposed by everyone who can see you, meaning success comes only if you beat them all. The rest don't stop opposing you just because you beat one of them.

I just felt it was more reasonable that it should work on an individual basis.

Please stop making up rules. I'm really getting sick of this.

the quinn

2008-08-13, 07:17 PM

I sent the email
BTW Does it matter that much?
We are all just trying to have fun here and it seems things are getting heated.
Maybe instead of arguing we should work on a solution that works for every one.
I am a bit sad that the actual combat at slowed to a stand still when it really could have completed 2 more rounds

stupnick

2008-08-13, 07:20 PM

actually the bluff overrides the stealth check, that's what the bluff check is for.... otherwise if you still need cover/concealment there is no point to the bluff check. please then explain why the bluff check would allow you to make a stealth check. and how that would work if the target can just look at you and negate it... it makes your standard action useless..

the specific overrides the general...as the beginning of the book states...

and i am perfectly fine with playing by the book you made the rule that i would succedd vs 1 and am hidden vs them... and since i am hidden i can make myself invisible...

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 07:27 PM

please then explain why the bluff check would allow you to make a stealth check.

Because it says so!!!

"If you succeed, you create a diversion and can immediately make a Stealth check to hide."

It doesn't say "you create a diversion and are hidden." It says you can make an immediate Stealth check! (and yes, if successful against all who see you, then Hide in Plain Sight as a minor action)

I sent the email
BTW Does it matter that much?
We are all just trying to have fun here and it seems things are getting heated.
Maybe instead of arguing we should work on a solution that works for every one.
I am a bit sad that the actual combat at slowed to a stand still when it really could have completed 2 more rounds

Got it. It was Customer Service, so sure enough, they contradicted themselves directly. I sent an e-mail asking them about that.

And I'm sad, too, but what's the alternative? Just let him invent abilities that don't exist whenever he feels like it? I'm seriously considering dropping out of the game and just letting him go nuts, though, because it's obvious he's not going to stop doing it. The only alternative is to either start inventing abilities myself (which I refuse to do -- I make mistakes, but I never deliberately try to cheese abilities) or keep playing with someone who's using a different set of rules from the rest of us.

stupnick

2008-08-13, 07:37 PM

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 07:40 PM

don't worry i am dropping out..

when you make a bluff check it overrides your perception, that's why you get an insight roll... if i succedd against the insights i am hidden.... no perception checks are allowed....

Well, I quoted the text that backs up what I said. I'd love to know where it says the Bluff check overrides Perception and makes the Stealth check an automatic success. I know where it says you get to make a Stealth check, but I don't see what you're saying anywhere in the book.

stupnick

2008-08-13, 07:42 PM

i never said it makes it an automatic success...

all i said is you don't get a perception check to see me, and you can't say since you have los to me w/o cover you automatically see me..

all i said is i get to make a stealth check if the bluff check succedes. and since i am hidden b/c of the stealth check i am not invis if i use hide in plain sight.

and if i beat the bluff check
Distracted Creature: If a creature is distracted, you
can attempt to hide from that creature even when
you don’t have cover or concealment.

which means if you were given a perception check it would be against my stealth check if anything..

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 07:47 PM

iwhich means if you were given a perception check it would be against my stealth check if anything..

That's exactly what I said. Passive Perception always opposes Stealth, no action required. Velna's passive Perception is 30. Your Stealth check was 27. It's just ... math.

stupnick

2008-08-13, 07:49 PM

yes... but if i succed on the bluff/stealth check i am hidden. you may see me but others may not, which means i am hidden to them, which allows me to use hide in plain sight, and become invis to all

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 07:56 PM

yes... but if i succed on the bluff/stealth check i am hidden. you may see me but others may not, which means i am hidden to them, which allows me to use hide in plain sight, and become invis to all

That could be interpreted one of two very different ways actually, as I stated before.

Tell you what ... here's a compromise, since we're not going to agree any other way:

I sent two e-mails to Wizards Customer Service, one pointing out their conflicting answers regarding Fleeting Ghost, the other presenting them with your interpretation of how Hide in Plain Sight works and asking if that's correct. What do you say we all take a break and wait for their responses and then all agree to abide by whatever call they make even if we don't like it? I'll make my pledge now to do so.

stupnick

2008-08-13, 08:04 PM

i will, but to be honest this is his last battle as rogues suck here.. this should be a way around it but if it is this hard to get this done, i don't even want to attempt it...lol

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 08:09 PM

i will, but to be honest this is his last battle as rogues suck here.. this should be a way around it but if it is this hard to get this done, i don't even want to attempt it...lol

I actually agree with you on that point -- that is, it would be more fair to the Stealth classes for the arenas to have areas of concealment or some kind of cover. I can get around the problem with Naenre in the epic circuit, but that's because drow have a racial ability that grants them concealment.

Admittedly, you can also get around it if you take the infiltrator paragon path. Impossible to Catch (invisible as a minor action), Stealth since you now have automatic concealment vs. everyone, Hide in Plain Sight.

But we'll go with whatever Customer Service hands down, whether I like it or not and whether you like it or not, and that will end the argument.

stupnick

2008-08-13, 09:03 PM

per the new errata that wizards just put out

Bluff [Revision]
Player’s Handbook, page 183
In the shaded box, replace the text under “Create a Diversion” with the following:
“Once per combat encounter, you can create a diversion to hide. As a
standard action, make a Bluff check opposed by the passive Insight check of
any enemy that can see you. If you succeed, make a Stealth check opposed
by the passive Perception check of any enemy present. If the Stealth check
succeeds against an enemy, you are hidden from that enemy until the end of
your turn or until you attack.”

Stealth [Revision]
Player’s Handbook, page 188
Replace all text after the first paragraph with the following:
Stealth: At the end of a move action.
...
✦ Becoming Hidden: You can make a Stealth check against an enemy only if
you have superior cover or total concealment against the enemy or if you’re
outside the enemy’s line of sight...

You only need cover or concealment to maintain hiding, but it takes superior cover or total concealment to become hidden n the first place.

so to make a stealth check you need total concealment and superior cover...

also for the bluff check it's against passive checks and i am hidden. so with my bluff check i beat all your passive insights, and my stealth beat everyone but Velna (sp?), so i am hidden from everyone but Velna, then i use hide in plain sight. and it turns me from hidden to invisible...

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 10:08 PM

Stealth [Revision]
Player’s Handbook, page 188
Replace all text after the first paragraph with the following:
Stealth: At the end of a move action.
...
✦ Becoming Hidden: You can make a Stealth check against an enemy only if
you have superior cover or total concealment against the enemy or if you’re
outside the enemy’s line of sight...

You only need cover or concealment to maintain hiding, but it takes superior cover or total concealment to become hidden n the first place.

Well, per the bolded part you brought to our attention, you can't even do the trick at all because you're in our lines of sight and not benefiting from superior cover or concealment. In any case, I think we agreed to wait on the reply to the two questions I posed that should clear this up.

Who knows? Maybe they'll grant Fleeting Ghost the godlike ability to let you make a Stealth check without cover or concealment of any kind, while in the lines of sight of other people, after all. That would be insane and would make a level 2 utility strictly superior to a level 10 one in the same class for the same purpose, but we've agreed to abide by what they decide even if it's just flat-out stupid.

stupnick

2008-08-13, 10:15 PM

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 10:42 PM

that is correct if just using stealth...

but if using bluff to create a diversion you go by those effects which means i am hidden till the end of my turn or until i attack.

this is where specific overrides general

the general rule of stealth is as listed, but the specific power of bluff to hide overrides the general rule of stealth as listed in the ability.

You made this argument in the General forum, and as I recall, exactly no one agreed with you. Let's just wait for Customer Service to reply like we agreed and abide by their ruling as we also agreed. I'm sure we'll have an answer by tomorrow, and we can be on our merry way from there.

stupnick

2008-08-13, 11:12 PM

actually agreed upon by tbarra (think that was his name) he even said that with a bluff check you are hidden till the end of your round....

the only person who disagreed was jackmage and he couldn't back it up or even make an arguement against it.

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-13, 11:32 PM

actually agreed upon by tbarra (think that was his name) he even said that with a bluff check you are hidden till the end of your round....

Wow, tbarrie will be surprised to hear that. He probably thinks he said, "You only need cover or concealment to maintain hiding, but it takes superior cover or total concealment to become hidden in the first place." Shall I direct him to this thread to correct his mistaken recollection?

the only person who disagreed was jackmage and he couldn't back it up or even make an arguement against it.

There was also Tyger. Three people so far, and they all disagree with you. That said, we've already made an agreement on what we're going to do here.

stupnick

2008-08-14, 06:22 AM

yes if you know him, direct him in here... he quoted me and aresponded to the first part, then quoted something different and responded to that part.

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-14, 04:21 PM

So I got my replies from Customer Service, and I'm annoyed to report that neither of us is going to like the answers, which follow:

Q: Hi! Let's say I'm a rogue with Hide in Plain Sight. I'm facing four enemies. I make a Bluff check to create a distraction to hide, opposed by their Insight checks, of course. Three of them beat my Bluff check, but one of them fails, so I make a Stealth check against that one and also beat his passive Perception. I now, as a minor action, activate Hide in Plain Sight and become invisible to all of them, despite the fact that I was not at any point successfully hidden against three of the four of them.

A: Hello,

Unfortunately, there isn’t an official answer for the situation you describe. I’ve passed along this conversation to the game’s developers. Hopefully, we’ll see an update or FAQ entry covering it soon, but until then it’s up to the campaign’s Dungeon Master to decide. The DM is always the final arbiter on how they want their campaign to run. Have fun!

Please let me know if you need anymore help!

Q: Hi, recently a friend of mine wrote in with a question about Fleeting Ghost. The answer he received contradicts a previous answer I found from Wizards Customer Service regarding the same issue.

Which is correct?

The original question and answer I found online is as follows:

Q: Fleeting Ghost, p119, says you can move & make a stealth check. Does this mean that use of this power allows the rogue to ignore the normal rule that moving through open space during combat negates stealth, and allow them to make a stealth attack immediately after moving, while in plain view? Or does the rogue have to end their turn in concealment/cover for the stealth check to be valid?

A: This ability allows you to move at your full speed and not take a penalty to your stealth check, as described on page 188. All other rules for stealth, cover, and concealment still apply.

source: http://www.enworld.org/wiki/index.php/4E_Customer_Service_Answers

Quoted below is what he just forwarded to me, which completely contradicts that and seems to give incredible power to a level 2 utility power, making it far stronger than Shadow Stride, a level 10 utility power, which is all but rendered irrelevant if this is really how it works.

Q: When using the fleeting ghost ability does it allow you to move while ignoring the regular rules for stealth (ie cover and concealment)? Or must you still follow the regular rules?

A: Greetings,

No, you don't have to follow the normal rules for making stealth checks. You simply get to make one as a part of that power.

So which is correct?

A: Hello,

Unfortunately, there isn’t an official answer for the situation you describe. I’ve passed along this conversation to the game’s developers. Hopefully, we’ll see an update or FAQ entry covering it soon, but until then it’s up to the campaign’s Dungeon Master to decide. The DM is always the final arbiter on how they want their campaign to run. Have fun!

Please let me know if you need anymore help!

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-14, 04:25 PM

I also have those in the original e-mail formats if you'd like me to forward them to any of you; I just cleaned it up and put it all here in an organized fashion to make it easier for everyone to read.

The answer seems to be that they don't have an answer, and it's a GM call. It cannot be my call, obviously. OOTS will have to make the decision on this.

stupnick

2008-08-14, 09:26 PM

heh nice... but we don't need to bug him for that atm...

as i already said i am going to drop my rogue out of the arena.. i can't stand it at the moment how they are doing.

i already put in my warlock for the next level 20..... so hopefully i will be able to play him really soon

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-14, 10:51 PM

Well, in any case, I have two rogues set up (one in the heroic circuit and one in epic), and I'm toying with a third one (also epic), and I'm going to assume my reasoning in the way that I play them. I just can't stomach the idea of Fleeting Ghost being that cheesy-powerful as a dinky level 2 utility, which would put it completely out of balance with all level 2 utilities in the book and really all other rogue utilities, too.

It would make me seriously consider quitting rogues altogether and refusing to play them if that were actually the final answer handed down by WOTC, and I love rogues.

FFS, no more Batman classes like 3.x, please!

stupnick

2008-08-14, 11:08 PM

Kiara LeSabre

2008-08-14, 11:18 PM

well i believe fleeting ghost needs to abide by stealth requirements. but the bluff check would over ride it and allow you to use hide in plain sight. as long as you beat your opponents passive checks.

I agree, although then it's back to the question of whether you just need to beat one person to become invisible to all, whether you need to beat all people to become invisible to any, or whether it works individually on the ones you beat but not the ones you didn't.

I personally think the last answer makes the most sense and is the most fair to all involved as well, but the truth is, RAW, any of the three could be right, and worse, RAW, the first two extremes are actually easier to justify.

Unfortunately, on the Bluff thing, the truth is there's nothing in the book that adequately answers the question either way at all. Nor do the most recently published errata clear it up really.

stupnick

2008-08-15, 06:46 PM

well the most recent errata does answer the bluff, if your bluff passes there insight, then your stealth passes there perception you are hidden vs them till the end of your turn or till you attack.

now as for hide in plain sight on top of that, that's a whole different story.

you can take it as you are invsible, as long as you are hidden, and technically you are hidden vs at least some of them. so you become invisible, and unless someone can see invisible creatures they can't see you... they may know where you are, allowing targeting of the square at the -5 to hit you. but they still have to deal with that.

or you can take it as you are invisible to those you are hidden against, but then again it doesn't state "those who you are hidden against you are invisible against" it just states "you must be hidden. you are now invisible."