Elder Evils

[Killersquid]

I'm reading through it at the moment, and does it give shivers to anyone else?:smalleek:

[PnP Fan]

not really. Maybe I've spent too much time as a DM.

[Neon Knight]

Nah. Didn't like the book at all. Kinda meh in my opinion.

[Sinfire Titan]

Nah. Didn't like the book at all. Kinda meh in my opinion.

That's because you never found the abusive parts of it.

[Killersquid]

Heh, I guess I'm a giant wuss.:smallbiggrin:

[CASTLEMIKE]

Just the Web excerpt:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20071203a

[Neon Knight]

That's because you never found the abusive parts of it.

I didn't like it because the Elder Evils in the book were intended to be used as campaign capstones, for the big ending as a final boss. They have stats. They can be defeated and are designed to be destroyable. I prefer a more Lovecraftian style, summarized as "if this guy ever shows up we're dead, so make sure no one summons him m'kay?"

The Elder Evils are like Galactus (monstrously tough, but still, he's been beaten. I checked Wikipedia.) I want them to be like Cthulhu (as in, don't even try.)

If you use the Evils from the book, people tend to think they are just like they are in the book. You have to spell it out for them in-game and out that you've made some changes. I find this sort of annoying.

[Ganurath]

You see, this is why the best evils are the mortal ones. Who needs Cthulhu when you have an elf that worships Vecna?

[Sinfire Titan]

I didn't like it because the Elder Evils in the book were intended to be used as campaign capstones, for the big ending as a final boss. They have stats. They can be defeated and are designed to be destroyable. I prefer a more Lovecraftian style, summarized as "if this guy ever shows up we're dead, so make sure no one summons him m'kay?"

The Elder Evils are like Galactus (monstrously tough, but still, he's been beaten. I checked Wikipedia.) I want them to be like Cthulhu (as in, don't even try.)

If you use the Evils from the book, people tend to think they are just like they are in the book. You have to spell it out for them in-game and out that you've made some changes. I find this sort of annoying.

Ah, so it is more a flavor problem than the mechanics. Each of the Elder Evils can be reduced to dust via simple party tactics, which doesn't even phase me in the least (my custom enemies tend to be a much larger threat than the Leviathan anyway), which is one of the problems with the system itself.

Fortunately, none of my players read more of the book than is needed to make a character, which means if I say something isn't hurt, it means they know they aren't doing enough to hurt it. Which means its probably a few levels above them, and they need to bow out before they get killed. Which happens more often than I can count.

But the reason to buy Elder Evils is bonus feats/infinite feat loop.

[hamlet]

I didn't like it because the Elder Evils in the book were intended to be used as campaign capstones, for the big ending as a final boss. They have stats. They can be defeated and are designed to be destroyable. I prefer a more Lovecraftian style, summarized as "if this guy ever shows up we're dead, so make sure no one summons him m'kay?"

The Elder Evils are like Galactus (monstrously tough, but still, he's been beaten. I checked Wikipedia.) I want them to be like Cthulhu (as in, don't even try.)

If you use the Evils from the book, people tend to think they are just like they are in the book. You have to spell it out for them in-game and out that you've made some changes. I find this sort of annoying.

QFT

When it comes to "Elder Evils" style gaming, I go by the advice given to me on the occasion of my first Call of Cthulhu game: "If you get into a fight, you've already lost."

[chiasaur11]

I didn't like it because the Elder Evils in the book were intended to be used as campaign capstones, for the big ending as a final boss. They have stats. They can be defeated and are designed to be destroyable. I prefer a more Lovecraftian style, summarized as "if this guy ever shows up we're dead, so make sure no one summons him m'kay?"

The Elder Evils are like Galactus (monstrously tough, but still, he's been beaten. I checked Wikipedia.) I want them to be like Cthulhu (as in, don't even try.)

If you use the Evils from the book, people tend to think they are just like they are in the book. You have to spell it out for them in-game and out that you've made some changes. I find this sort of annoying.

Well, to be fair, Galactus tends to be beaten with "look, this planet tastes much better" or macguffins, and humans are pretty much the only race to do anything other than offer him other planets to eat and succeed. If you want Cosmic Horrors to be totally unbeatable, you wouldn't need to buy a book. You just tell the party "You Die". You can see why the statted version is the one they sell. Not much market for page after page of

(Name)
(Brief summary of appearence and history)
Party and world die. No saves.

Gets a little monotonus.

[bosssmiley]

If you want Cosmic Horrors to be totally unbeatable, you wouldn't need to buy a book. You just tell the party "You Die". You can see why the statted version is the one they sell. Not much market for page after page of

(Name)
(Brief summary of appearance and history)
Party and world die. No saves.

Gets a little monotonous.

"Call of Cthulhu" got five editions and a series of award-winning supplements out of that very premise :smallconfused:

What makes Elder Evils interesting isn't the creatures themselves: it's the *reactions* to them by the NPCs, the world and the PCs themselves that are interesting. The fear of the anticipated awakening of some ancient menace is always more compelling than some rubber suit/stop motion/CG beasty going "Gribble, gribble, gribble!" and stomping your city (this is part of the reason the first "Hellboy" movie sucked).

Take paizo's recent "Rise of the Runelords" as an example. The BBEG is nothing but a boggo SRD specialist transmuter with excessive WBL locked in a pocket dimension in magic evil Shangri-La for the last 10,000 years, it's the mythology that's built up around the BBEG, his fallen empire, and the machinations of the various cults which serve him that make the saga interesting and memorable.

Ditto Sauron in LotR; he's nothing but a glaring fiery eye...but the threat of what he might become again if he recovers the One Ring hangs over the entire saga like the pall over Mordor.

Unfortunately the way D&D3 was set up (stat heavy 'systematisation of the fantastic' - pace China Mieville) really doesn't do evocative 'puzzle monster' threats at all well. Put bluntly D&D-style stat blocks sans buckets of well-written flavour text are simply too cut and dried for cosmic horror play. :smallannoyed:

[jcsw]

I didn't like it because the Elder Evils in the book were intended to be used as campaign capstones, for the big ending as a final boss. They have stats. They can be defeated and are designed to be destroyable. I prefer a more Lovecraftian style, summarized as "if this guy ever shows up we're dead, so make sure no one summons him m'kay?"

The Elder Evils are like Galactus (monstrously tough, but still, he's been beaten. I checked Wikipedia.) I want them to be like Cthulhu (as in, don't even try.)

If you use the Evils from the book, people tend to think they are just like they are in the book. You have to spell it out for them in-game and out that you've made some changes. I find this sort of annoying.

If you'd notice, most of them don't have stat blocks, Father Llymic, Atropos, Leviathan, Pandorym, Sertrous don't have stat blocks, the final battles in these are their ASPECTS, with only a fraction of their power.

[PnP Fan]

Heh, I guess I'm a giant wuss.:smallbiggrin:

Nah, I'd blame it on my lack of imagination (I'm an engineer) before I called someone else a wuss. ;-)

[Dante & Vergil]

This book sent chills down my spine, not entirely because of fear, but on how awsome I thought the signs for the Elder Evils are and the fact that the signs are based off of signs of the bible's Judgement Day. Just amazing, at least flavorwise.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

I cackle madly whenever I go through it.

[Eldariel]

I didn't like it because the Elder Evils in the book were intended to be used as campaign capstones, for the big ending as a final boss. They have stats. They can be defeated and are designed to be destroyable. I prefer a more Lovecraftian style, summarized as "if this guy ever shows up we're dead, so make sure no one summons him m'kay?"

The Elder Evils are like Galactus (monstrously tough, but still, he's been beaten. I checked Wikipedia.) I want them to be like Cthulhu (as in, don't even try.)

If you use the Evils from the book, people tend to think they are just like they are in the book. You have to spell it out for them in-game and out that you've made some changes. I find this sort of annoying.

I differ in opinion here. I feel everything should have stats, since if universe itself can be destroyed, so can everything that dwells above or below it. They should be powerful enough to never be encounterable, let alone damageable in a normal game, but I feel they should exist for those games where the characters are infinitely more powerful than in your average game. An example of how I percieve this is The Death from Immortals Handbook (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Death%2C_CR_373). The thing is CR 373 and not really defeatable on any lower levels, so in no normal game would you ever even think about it, let alone think about encountering it. However, if in some game a player becomes e.g. Life itself and needs to fight the cataclysmic battle to determine what comes after the end of the universe, the stats are needed to run the fight.

Basically, in a system without limits to player power, I feel everything needs stats since eventually, with DM permission, it's possible that the PCs reach a powerlevel necessary to encounter those things (for example, to fight back Vecna). Sure, I could write those stats up on the spot, but that's a huge job for something so powerful, so having them at ready would make such a game possible. Not having them vs. having them at the proper level makes no difference in a normal game (since they're just not even touchable for normal characters), but having the stats would make a game run on such level possible.


As for the book, I loved it. I don't think there's nearly enough stuff on the mythical monsters in D&D - this certainly puts flesh into some grand movers that could exist behind everything else.

[spamoo]

I'm reading through it at the moment, and does it give shivers to anyone else?:smalleek:

Agreed. I just have to make sure that my DM never gets a hold of it, preferably never hearing of it...

[AslanCross]

Ah, so it is more a flavor problem than the mechanics. Each of the Elder Evils can be reduced to dust via simple party tactics, which doesn't even phase me in the least (my custom enemies tend to be a much larger threat than the Leviathan anyway), which is one of the problems with the system itself.

Fortunately, none of my players read more of the book than is needed to make a character, which means if I say something isn't hurt, it means they know they aren't doing enough to hurt it. Which means its probably a few levels above them, and they need to bow out before they get killed. Which happens more often than I can count.

But the reason to buy Elder Evils is bonus feats/infinite feat loop.

Some of the Elder Evils though only have statted aspects. Atropus and Leviathan, for example--Atropus is a MOON. You only fight its Gargantuan-sized aspect, while Leviathan has several aspects. The real one spans the surface of the planet.

I like them more for the creep factor. I'd also think that as campaign capstones, they're supposed to be defeatable so that your party retires happily.

Doesn't the Worm that Walks have a "all existence ends" problem? (EDIT: Admittedly, it isn't caused by the Elder Evil himself)

[hamishspence]

yes, if defeated quickly you still need to call on gods (wish) to fix problem.