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DareTheRogue
2008-08-12, 02:51 PM
I am looking for a way to access skills not in the cleric skill list. I can not take able learner because I am not a human and I am not able to multi-class due to campaign restrictions. Preferable looking to pick up slieght of hand and tumble. other openings on skills would be great, otherwise my option right now is to drop a high stat in int and cross class and I would rather save skill points.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-12, 02:53 PM
Clositered Cleric Variant makes all knowledge skills class skills with the bonus Knowledge domain.

A level dip into Factotum will make all skills class skills.

kamikasei
2008-08-12, 02:54 PM
What books do you have?

If you have Tome of Battle, taking one of the Martial Study feats for a given discipline gets you that discipline's key skill as a class skill. I think there's one that uses Tumble...

edit: Yup, Desert Wind. That gets you Tumble. Not sure about Sleight of Hand though.

The problem with class dips is that, while it raises your maximum number of ranks in the skill to the class skill cap, you still have to pay for it as a cross-class skill if it's such for a given level you're taking.

DareTheRogue
2008-08-12, 02:54 PM
Multi-classing not an option. Cloistered cleric variant is in UA a book we do not use at all.

monty
2008-08-12, 02:54 PM
Cloistered Cleric would also give you 4 more skill points per level. Might make cross-classing less painful.

Edit: Never mind then.

DareTheRogue
2008-08-12, 02:55 PM
No tome of Battle

I am limited to the Completes, Races of _____ and Core, we have a few others we use but I am able to use them atm.

Falrin
2008-08-12, 02:56 PM
Get trickery Domain. Ask your DM to be nice and change skills, maybe even create a domain for you.

monty
2008-08-12, 02:56 PM
No multiclassing, really restricted sources...damn, I'm glad I don't have your DM. There's really not a lot you can do with that. Nothing I can think of, anyway.

DareTheRogue
2008-08-12, 02:58 PM
Well the creation of a new domain might work.... Anyone have a full list of all the domains and the book of origin?

kamikasei
2008-08-12, 02:59 PM
I dunno; just asking your DM seems the best bet. Maybe he'd be nice and let you trade some other, less-used class skills at one-for-one. Maybe he'd let you spend a feat to get the two as class skills.

monty
2008-08-12, 03:00 PM
You can find the common ones here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm) and a complete list here (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Spells-ClericalDomains.pdf).

Wabbajack
2008-08-12, 03:01 PM
There is the flexible mind feat:

Flexible Mind
[Anarchic]
(DR326 p80)

Prerequisite: Chaotic alignment

Choose two skills that you have ranks in. These skills are always in-class for you from now on. Both skills
receive a +1 bonus.
You gain a Chaotic Aura equal to your Character level. It can discerned by Detect Chaos spell or ability.

DareTheRogue
2008-08-12, 03:24 PM
The idea of a thievery domain caught my GM's attention, any ideas for it.

Thievery Domain
Tumble and Sleight of Hand are a class skills.

DareTheRogue
2008-08-12, 03:57 PM
Thievery Domain

Granted Power: Bluff, Sleight of Hand and Tumble are Class Skills

1 Knock: Opens locked or magically sealed door.
2 Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
3 Shrink Item: Object shrinks to one-sixteenth size.
4 Glibness: You gain +30 bonus on Bluff checks, and your lies can
escape magical discernment.
5 Leomund’s Secret Chest: Hides expensive chest on
Ethereal Plane; you retrieve it at will.
6 Mislead: Turns you invisible and creates illusory double.
7 Discern Location: Exact location of creature or object.
8 Moment of Prescience: You gain insight bonus on single attack roll, check, or save.
9 Time Stop: You act freely for 1d4+1 rounds.

Chronicled
2008-08-12, 04:00 PM
Thievery Domain

Granted Power: Bluff, Sleight of Hand and Tumble are Class Skills

1 Knock: Opens locked or magically sealed door.
2 Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
3 Shrink Item: Object shrinks to one-sixteenth size.
4 Glibness: You gain +30 bonus on Bluff checks, and your lies can
escape magical discernment.
5 Leomund’s Secret Chest: Hides expensive chest on
Ethereal Plane; you retrieve it at will.
6 Mislead: Turns you invisible and creates illusory double.
7 Discern Location: Exact location of creature or object.
8 Moment of Prescience: You gain insight bonus on single attack roll, check, or save.
9 Time Stop: You act freely for 1d4+1 rounds.

Yeah, that fits really nicely. Well done.

Eldariel
2008-08-12, 04:02 PM
I'd say Bluff, Sleight of Hand and Open Lock would make more sense. Tumble you can decently take crossclass anyways. Tumble is obviously better though since Open Lock is replaced by the spell "Knock" anyways. Maybe you could use that reasoning to sneak in both.

DareTheRogue
2008-08-12, 04:04 PM
My original was Bluff Sleight of Hand and Search....

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-12, 04:04 PM
The Thievery Domain is nice. Maybe you can get Sneak Attack 1/Day based on the Death Domain.

Eldariel
2008-08-12, 04:05 PM
Rather a spell that grants Sneak Attack; giving multiple separate abilities is over the conventional power of a Domain. Maybe Nightstalker Transformation? Perhaps over Leomund's Secret Chest.

monty
2008-08-12, 04:07 PM
Rather a spell that grants Sneak Attack; giving multiple separate abilities is over the conventional power of a Domain. Maybe Nightstalker Transformation? Perhaps over Leomund's Secret Chest.

Other domains give class skills and another ability; Travel, for one.

Eldariel
2008-08-12, 04:09 PM
Class skill + an ability. Any domains that grant multiple class skills (Trickery, Kobold, Dragon) seems to only grant skills. We're already looking to give more abilities than a conventional Domain (only Trickery adds 3; others add 2, although Kobold does grant Trapfinding, but that's only because else the granted skills would be useless) along with a very powerful spell list.

DareTheRogue
2008-08-12, 04:10 PM
Thievery Domain

Granted Power: Bluff, Sleight of Hand and Tumble are Class Skills

1 Knock: Opens locked or magically sealed door.
2 Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
3 Shrink Item: Object shrinks to one-sixteenth size.
4 Glibness: You gain +30 bonus on Bluff checks, and your lies can
escape magical discernment.
5 Leomund’s Secret Chest: Hides expensive chest on
Ethereal Plane; you retrieve it at will.
6 Mislead: Turns you invisible and creates illusory double.
7 Discern Location: Exact location of creature or object.
8 Moment of Prescience: You gain insight bonus on single attack roll, check, or save.
9 Time Stop: You act freely for 1d4+1 rounds.


I like this as is, Search or Tumble will be up to my GM.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-12, 04:17 PM
Class skill + an ability. Any domains that grant multiple class skills (Trickery, Kobold, Dragon) seems to only grant skills. We're already looking to give more abilities than a conventional Domain (only Trickery adds 3; others add 2, although Kobold does grant Trapfinding, but that's only because else the granted skills would be useless) along with a very powerful spell list.

True but there are domains like Plant which add a skill Nature and turning 3 + char mod a day or Travel which adds Survival skill and Freedom of Movement.

Another option is making it a Initiate of Thief God X Domain.

DareTheRogue
2008-08-12, 04:19 PM
But it is a SINGLE skill added not multiple

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-12, 04:24 PM
But it is a SINGLE skill added not multiple

So Sneak Attack 1/Day similar to the Death Domain with the option of choosing either Bluff, Sleight of Hand or UMD as a class skill depending on the Cleric.

Chronicled
2008-08-12, 04:26 PM
So Sneak Attack 1/Day similar to the Death Domain with the option of choosing either Bluff, Sleight of Hand or UMD as a class skill depending on the Cleric.

Sneak Attack 1/day is pretty lame, really. And is it 1d6 Sneak Attack 1/day, or equal to a rogue of your level, or something else? Why not just make it 1d6 Sneak Attack, which would fit better as a domain ability... even though it'd be a pain to remember in combat?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-12, 04:28 PM
Sneak Attack 1/day is pretty lame, really. And is it 1d6 Sneak Attack 1/day, or equal to a rogue of your level, or something else? Why not just make it 1d6 Sneak Attack, which would fit better as a domain ability... even though it'd be a pain to remember in combat?

This is supposed to be a domain for a God of Thieve's not necessarily one of the Top 10 domains in the game. Just allowing Sneak Attack based on the Death Domain mechanic and allowing the PC to choose a single Rogue class skill is a very strong domain.

Skills could easily be Hide, Move Silently and Sleight of Hand if fixed or skills like Decipher Script, Disable Device, Escape Artist based on the Arcane Trickster PRC or Disguise, Hide and Move Silently based on the Assassin PRC or Hide, Move Silently, and Perform based on the Shadow Dancer PRC.

Hide and Move Silently would be strong candidates for two of the skills for a God of Thieves not creating a Domain for a specific PC build.

monty
2008-08-12, 04:34 PM
Why do we even need sneak attack at all? It doesn't seem to fit the flavor. Thievery is about stealing things, not killing things.

Chronicled
2008-08-12, 04:36 PM
Why do we even need sneak attack at all? It doesn't seem to fit the flavor. Thievery is about stealing things, not killing things.

That's what my original thinking was. And then I realized that implementing it mechanically wasn't a terribly solid thing either.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-12, 04:39 PM
Why do we even need sneak attack at all? It doesn't seem to fit the flavor. Thievery is about stealing things, not killing things.

Hmmmm let's look at the Rogue class specials: Sneak Attack +10D6 over 20 levels which translates to 10 bonus feats with the Variant Feat Rogue. Now if your God uses the Variant Feat Rogue then the domain should probably provide a bonus domain or an open bonus feat like the Chameleon.


That's what my original thinking was. And then I realized that implementing it mechanically wasn't a terribly solid thing either.

Base it on the Death Domain Death Touch mechanic.

monty
2008-08-12, 04:42 PM
Hmmmm let's look at the Rogue class specials: Sneak Attack +10D6 over 20 levels which translates to 10 bonus feats with the Variant Feat Rogue. Now if your God uses the Variant Feat Rogue then the domain should probably provide a bonus domain or an open bonus feat like the Chameleon.

Rogue != Thief.

DareTheRogue
2008-08-12, 04:45 PM
Move Silently, Sleight of Hand and Tumble are my favorite choices here.... Tumble may get moved out for Bluff, Open Lock or Search depending on what the GM says... didn't even think of move silently, it fits and so does Sleight of Hand are best ones, but I think there should be a third. Sneak Attack is not a Thief skill, more of a Rogue skill and I am not making a Rogue Domain.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-12, 04:48 PM
Rogue != Thief.

I agree and what is the signature class special of the Rogue!=Thief class?

monty
2008-08-12, 04:50 PM
I agree and what is the signature class special of the Rogue!=Thief class?

Wait, what?

I was saying that a rogue is not just a thief, and that thievery does not necessarily lead to combat.

DareTheRogue
2008-08-12, 04:50 PM
Agreed with Monty

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-12, 04:52 PM
Move Silently, Sleight of Hand and Tumble are my favorite choices here.... Tumble may get moved out for Bluff, Open Lock or Search depending on what the GM says... didn't even think of move silently, it fits and so does Sleight of Hand are best ones, but I think there should be a third. Sneak Attack is not a Thief skill, more of a Rogue skill and I am not making a Rogue Domain.

Why not keep it simple and allow the PC to choose which 3 Rogue class skills to add to their skill list?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-12, 04:56 PM
Wait, what?

I was saying that a rogue is not just a thief, and that thievery does not necessarily lead to combat.

I am saying all D&D rogues "normally" receive Sneak Attack as a class special game mechanic. That is a signature class ability.

DareTheRogue
2008-08-12, 04:56 PM
So:
Granted Power: Choose 3 as class skills: Disable Device, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Sleight of Hand or Tumble.

But this isn't a Rogue. it is a Thief

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-12, 05:00 PM
So:
Granted Power: Choose 3 as class skills: Disable Device, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Sleight of Hand or Tumble.

But this isn't a Rogue. it is a Thief

Sure but my PHB doesn't have a Thief class it does have a Rogue class. Any class can be a Thief by stealing. It seems like you want to give the Thief Domain Rogue class skills.

DareTheRogue
2008-08-12, 05:03 PM
Well the idea is not to build it on a Class but to build it on the idea of a thief. and my Idea of a thief would be able to do those skills, not stab someone for extra dmg

monty
2008-08-12, 05:04 PM
Sure but my PHB doesn't have a Thief class it does have a Rogue class. Any class can be a Thief by stealing. It seems like you want to give the Thief Domain Rogue class skills.

Who ever said we were making a rogue?

DareTheRogue
2008-08-12, 05:05 PM
Approved by my GM:

Thievery Domain

Granted Power: Choose 3 as class skills: Disable Device, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Sleight of Hand or Tumble.

1 Knock: Opens locked or magically sealed door.
2 Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
3 Shrink Item: Object shrinks to one-sixteenth size.
4 Glibness: You gain +30 bonus on Bluff checks, and your lies can escape magical discernment.
5 Leomund’s Secret Chest: Hides expensive chest on Ethereal Plane; you retrieve it at will.
6 Mislead: Turns you invisible and creates illusory double.
7 Discern Location: Exact location of creature or object.
8 Moment of Prescience: You gain insight bonus on single attack roll, check, or save.
9 Time Stop: You act freely for 1d4+1 rounds.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-12, 05:12 PM
Congratulations I'd rank the Thievery Domain among the contenders for Top 10 Domains.


I am looking for a way to access skills not in the cleric skill list. I can not take able learner because I am not a human and I am not able to multi-class due to campaign restrictions. Preferable looking to pick up slieght of hand and tumble. other openings on skills would be great, otherwise my option right now is to drop a high stat in int and cross class and I would rather save skill points.

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Apprentice,all

Criminals normally receive Bluff and Gather Information according to DMG II but no reason it couldn't be Sleight of Hand and Tumbling (Perhaps your PC was a street urchin Pick Pocket and Street Performer).


Who ever said we were making a rogue?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_%28vagrant%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thief_%28disambiguation%29

Curmudgeon
2008-08-12, 08:12 PM
Cloistered cleric variant is in UA a book we do not use at all. You don't need the book, as this information is available via OGL and accessible here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric).

DareTheRogue
2008-08-12, 09:29 PM
we only use sources we own hardcover.

DareTheRogue
2008-08-13, 11:28 AM
Thievery Domain

Granted Power: Choose 2 as class skills: Disable Device, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Sleight of Hand or Tumble.

1 Knock: Opens locked or magically sealed door.
2 Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
3 Shrink Item: Object shrinks to one-sixteenth size.
4 Glibness: You gain +30 bonus on Bluff checks, and your lies can escape magical discernment.
5 Leomund’s Secret Chest: Hides expensive chest on Ethereal Plane; you retrieve it at will.
6 Mislead: Turns you invisible and creates illusory double.
7 Discern Location: Exact location of creature or object.
8 Moment of Prescience: You gain insight bonus on single attack roll, check, or save.
9 Time Stop: You act freely for 1d4+1 rounds.


Final draft. Choose 2 because choosing is a big bonus. The entire Domain is very very nicely built now.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-13, 12:24 PM
Thievery Domain

Granted Power: Choose 2 as class skills: Disable Device, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Sleight of Hand or Tumble.

1 Knock: Opens locked or magically sealed door.
2 Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
3 Shrink Item: Object shrinks to one-sixteenth size.
4 Glibness: You gain +30 bonus on Bluff checks, and your lies can escape magical discernment.
5 Leomund’s Secret Chest: Hides expensive chest on Ethereal Plane; you retrieve it at will.
6 Mislead: Turns you invisible and creates illusory double.
7 Discern Location: Exact location of creature or object.
8 Moment of Prescience: You gain insight bonus on single attack roll, check, or save.
9 Time Stop: You act freely for 1d4+1 rounds.


Final draft. Choose 2 because choosing is a big bonus. The entire Domain is very very nicely built now.

Nice Final Draft. I agree choosing 2 skills is a nice bonus but so is the bonus spell list. Not one single bonus spell is on the standard Cleric list for that level and some are received earlier than standard casters. (Locate Object is normally a level 3 cleric spell).

Why not Knock at Level 2 with Charm Person or (Cheat or Sticky Fingers (Could be a Hardcover issue) at Level 1?

Why No Nondetection or Mindblank spell? In magic land Divinations should be used to discover and catch thieves who steal valuable treasures. Having the spell means the PC doesn't need an expensive anti-divination magic item.

Programmed Image could be useful as a distraction for a lone or small group of thieve's starting or in the middle of a job.

A third level spell like that temporarily provides the "+1 LA Dark or Shadow Walker" creature templates (Tome of Magic and FRCS Unapproachable East) or a sixth level+ spell that temporarily provides the "+2 Shadow Creature" template might be really nice for a Thievery Domain.

DareTheRogue
2008-08-13, 12:53 PM
True Locate Object is a 3rd level Cleric spell, but it is also a 2nd lvl wiz/sorc spell. But you are probably right on that.

As level 4 Nondetection may be a better spell for the Domain very true, or Mind Blank in place of level 8. But I think Nondetection is my favorite choice so maybe one more time on the review of the whole thing:
Thievery Domain

Granted Power: Choose 2 as class skills: Disable Device, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Sleight of Hand or Tumble.

1 Sticky Fingers: You get +10 on Sleight of Hand checks.
2 Knock: Opens locked or magically sealed door.
3 Shrink Item: Object shrinks to one-sixteenth size.
4 Nondetection: Hides subject from divination, scrying.
5 Leomund’s Secret Chest: Hides expensive chest on Ethereal Plane; you retrieve it at will.
6 Mislead: Turns you invisible and creates illusory double.
7 Discern Location: Exact location of creature or object.
8 Moment of Prescience: You gain insight bonus on single attack roll, check, or save.
9 Time Stop: You act freely for 1d4+1 rounds.



Swapping Mislead and Programmed Image depends, are we a solitary trying to escape or a group trying to pull a job, I like Mislead, good for the get away.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-13, 01:38 PM
Thats nice. One thought regarding Nondetection is that it could be Extended Notdetection at L4 making it last twice as long.

Chronicled
2008-08-13, 01:42 PM
Thievery Domain

Granted Power: Choose 2 as class skills: Disable Device, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Sleight of Hand or Tumble.

1 Sticky Fingers: You get +10 on Sleight of Hand checks.
2 Knock: Opens locked or magically sealed door.
3 Shrink Item: Object shrinks to one-sixteenth size.
4 Nondetection: Hides subject from divination, scrying.
5 Leomund’s Secret Chest: Hides expensive chest on Ethereal Plane; you retrieve it at will.
6 Mislead: Turns you invisible and creates illusory double.
7 Discern Location: Exact location of creature or object.
8 Moment of Prescience: You gain insight bonus on single attack roll, check, or save.
9 Time Stop: You act freely for 1d4+1 rounds.

I might end up stealing this (not sure when I'd use it, but still). A powerful domain, but very nicely made and it doesn't stray from its theme.

Eldariel
2008-08-13, 01:44 PM
I'd probably drop Leomund's Secret Chest for Glibness; the spell feels very Thiefish to me and buffs something Clerics are otherwise very poor at. Leomund's Secret Chest is just yet another extradimensional space, so it isn't that amazing - while I could certainly see it, I think Glibness is more natural.

DareTheRogue
2008-08-13, 01:49 PM
I believe that if the time is allowed during a theft I may use Secret Chest, but I am not to sure about Glibness, it may be a good swap though.

As for Extended Nondetection, I feel that is trying to over power the theme, you could possibly do it for sure, but would it be necessary... no.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-13, 01:52 PM
No extended Non Detection.

I'd prefer to see the Shadow Walker spell instead of Leomund's Secret Chest based on the FRCS PGtF Shadow Thieves of Amn and Unapproachable East Shadowlord needing to have the Shadow-Walker template of Mask or just providing the Dark creature template benefits: Hide +8, Move Silently +6, with Extraordinary Hide in Plain Sight, Superior Low Light Vision and Dark Vision.

DareTheRogue
2008-08-13, 01:54 PM
It is all editable, this is just the Build of the Domain I am using as my GM approved it.