Ac Cloud, versus Link, the ultimate Fanboy/Girl Battle

[Fan]

Oh, yes I went this far, and being a FF fanboy myself it is obvious which side I'll be takin but enough of that, it i time for the dertails.

One thing this will be real time combat, with no pauses for using fareies, elixrs, or the like if you get the chance to pause, and drink one the battle should be yours by then.


There are NO random hearts pots, or anything else silly like that, like finding ruppees in grass, the same goes for random monster enounters in FF, while they are fighting, some random boss monster cant walk up, and force them to work together, that my freind is the oldest cliche EVER.

There unfourtantely is only one scenario that I can think of that Link would have a chance in, which would be aone-on-one duel, in the heights of Miodgar, simila to the fibnal battle in Advent children only more epic, and I hate to say this, but with less Mamas boys as well considering all Kadja EVER talked about was his momma, I swaer if that guy was anythying CLOSe to male, I might have to get a sex change.

This is twilight rincess link we are talking about here, that includes the magic ruppee eating armor, and the stupid hurricane bommerrang. I state this to make sure, nobodies arguement decays into, "Oh, well Link uses teh firece deity's mask, to sllice Cloud in half in one blowe." That is NOT how it works people, Cloud has been stepped on by Dinosaurs, and shoot wit things that could have easily destroyed a city, but for th purposes f this arguement, there are no
9999 hit point clouds, this would be grossly unfair, seeing as Links sword does at MAX 3000 damage, instead we will be doing this as realisticly as possible for the wounds, and sword slices.

There is no Din's fire, no magic what so ever, except for Links mystic sowrd manuevers, and Cloud doesn't have Omni slash, but he does have access to his other limit breaks, likie Blade beam, and Cross- slash, in order to keep it fair

Now I do believe i have posted enough info, for this battle of kings to commence.

[Fri]

We already have the legendary battle between Sephiroth and Link. It was truly a mega epic, board shattering event.

Link's hat win.

[Fan]

But Cloud killed Sepheiroth TWICE, and I the ultimate authority on EVERYTHING Final Fantasy was not present, and thus the battle was unmatched, trust me, I've watche EVERY anime, played EVERY game, and reaad EVERY manga, I think I have the right to that title.

[Fri]

helped by, you know, a small army that can destroy most of midgard with their hand tied behind their back.

(Actually, barret kinda did that. Sort of.)

[Fan]

Actually, thats a no on both Cloud did ost of the work the first time, PLUS finished him off, and then when he came back through Kadja, Cloud fought him ALONE, AND won.

[turkishproverb]

But Cloud killed Sepheiroth TWICE, and I the ultimate authority on EVERYTHING Final Fantasy was not present, and thus the battle was unmatched, trust me, I've watche EVERY anime, played EVERY game, and reaad EVERY manga, I think I have the right to that title.

Same BBEG

*holds up fingers*

TWICE!

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Fan]

Please dont dog on final fantasy, I tend to get rather angry when tings like that happen, and I do sso hate the use of nasty words.

[chiasaur11]

helped by, you know, a small army that can destroy most of midgard with their hand tied behind their back.

(Actually, barret kinda did that. Sort of.)

Yeah, if you've got Mr. T or a reasonable Expy thereof on your side, the fight against evil is pretty much in the bag.

[Fan]

Can we pease revert to origanal topic? If not I may have to terminate a couople of the fourmites to make an example. (J.K)

[Zaphrasz]

Difficult to say. First and foremost, you have chosen a situation that intentionally handicaps Link, there being no way to take advantage of any resourcefulness he may have, specifically choosing one of the weakest Links, and giving Cloud the home turf, while not allowing Link to take full advantage of his gadgets.

Link loses one major factor in this fight, The Master Sword. While it has been stated to be a perfectly balanced and well crafted sword, it is not meant to fight "good guys." You can argue that Cloud is no good guy, but let us assume that he is for the sake of simplicity. It will not be nearly so damaging as it could be.

Link has a few advantages here, however. Cloud has chosen a large, unwieldy weapon that he flails about, jumping straight into battle without thinking. Link thrives on his opponent not thinking. In every Zelda game, battle boils down to waiting for an opponent to make a mistake, then closing in. Link needs only to play turtle, and slowly bleed Cloud out. If Cloud gets smart, then things get tough for Link.

[turkishproverb]

Please dont dog on final fantasy, I tend to get rather angry when tings like that happen, and I do sso hate the use of nasty words.

oh, I like final fantasy, but you set me up to quote Brendan Frasier. I couldn't pass that up.

[Mx.Silver]

Oh, yes I went this far, and being a FF fanboy myself it is obvious which side I'll be takin but enough of that, it i time for the dertails.

One thing this will be real time combat, with no pauses for using fareies, elixrs, or the like if you get the chance to pause, and drink one the battle should be yours by then.

There are NO random hearts pots, or anything else silly like that, like finding ruppees in grass, the same goes for random monster enounters in FF, while they are fighting, some random boss monster cant walk up, and force them to work together, that my freind is the oldest cliche EVER.

Once again mate: Game mechanics are of little to no consequence in versus threads.


There unfourtantely is only one scenario that I can think of that Link would have a chance in, which would be aone-on-one duel, in the heights of Miodgar, simila to the fibnal battle in Advent children only more epic,
As opposed to, say, a purely ranged fight? Because Link would kind of dominate that one.:smallwink:


but for th purposes f this arguement, there are no
9999 hit point clouds, this would be grossly unfair, seeing as Links sword does at MAX 3000 damage, instead we will be doing this as realisticly as possible for the wounds, and sword slices.

HP numbers are the first thing that get thrown away in versus threads, since they're entirely arbitrary.


There is no Din's fire, no magic what so ever, except for Links mystic sowrd manuevers, and Cloud doesn't have Omni slash, but he does have access to his other limit breaks, likie Blade beam, and Cross- slash, in order to keep it fair

How is it fair that one guy loses all except one of his magic attacks while the other simply drops his most powerful?



Link has a few advantages here, however. Cloud has chosen a large, unwieldy weapon that he flails about, jumping straight into battle without thinking. Link thrives on his opponent not thinking. In every Zelda game, battle boils down to waiting for an opponent to make a mistake, then closing in. Link needs only to play turtle, and slowly bleed Cloud out. If Cloud gets smart, then things get tough for Link.
He also has range. Cloud is easily more agile, but Link can keep him pinned down with his projectiles. He's also fairly tough and he can actually use a shield effectively as well as perform rolling dodges. As mentioned, Cloud's sword is arguably his biggest weakness since if he misses then he's very much left himself open to a counter-attack as he doesn't have much to fall back on.

[Fan]

Guys first things first
Clouds sword in Ac, is actually SEVERAL sword of reasonable size grafted together, which prompts the dual wielding of some crazy awesomeness in the fight, at anceints city, as well as in the final battle of Midgar. Also Cloud loses his materia, beause unless you wanty a full magic, and masks battle with it ending, with Cloud pulling of the mime/kinghts of the round, or any of the other infini combos in that game I suggest we keep it his way.

And as for agilility have you people even SEEN, FF, AC, or EVER played FFF7, Cloud can jump inceridible, rights, and in his own right is pretty damned fast, I mean seriously without a booost he practicly jumps two story buildings in that movie, and he friggin slies a giant monster in half. This is a far from easy fight people.

[Zaphrasz]

Indeed, much to my dismay, I both played FFVII and saw the fight scenes from Advent Children, time I will never get back.

Final Fantasy 7 shows no signs of incredible speed or the ability to fly. The only time that happens is during the limit breaks, where Cloud can suddenly jump 50 feet in the air. Face it, the combat in Final Fantasy is probably not to be taken literally, else the game becomes even more of a convoluted mess plot-wise than before.

Advent Children took the absurdity of his weapon and multiplied it. Now it is not only a huge, unwieldy sword, but a huge unwieldy sword with structural issues. You yourself said that there was no time to down a potion, so why is there time to go through a lengthy sword swap?

[Fan]

Actually, he doesn't need to swap swords his ultimate weapon is all of them in combination, all he has to do is pull to of the off, and put the rest on his back. Lickity split, couldn't see that taking more than 2, maybe three seconds.

[Mx.Silver]

Indeed, much to my dismay, I both played FFVII and saw the fight scenes from Advent Children, time I will never get back.

Final Fantasy 7 shows no signs of incredible speed or the ability to fly. The only time that happens is during the limit breaks, where Cloud can suddenly jump 50 feet in the air. Face it, the combat in Final Fantasy is probably not to be taken literally, else the game becomes even more of a convoluted mess plot-wise than before.
E.g. Sephiroth's Supernova attack, probably the biggest offender.

On the subject of agility, even if Cloud can jump two story buildings what exactly would that accomplish? Link it the only guy with ranged weaponry so putting a big distance between them is playing into his hands. It's exactly the kind of thing Cloud shouldn't be doing, even if he was likely to.

[Innis Cabal]

Bomb Arrows.....we've established Link is the pen-ultimate One on One fighter. And I dont see a way for the fight to go any other way. Link wouldn't have to even get into close combat fighting. Cloud, as good? of a fighter as he is....suffer's sever issues in combat because...he cant hit ranged foes unless he runs at them, and Link has proven he is light on his feet.

That being said, we cant win this as you wont admit Cloud can win. Presented my peice...and i'm out

[Fan]

So wait, you eople are saying the Cloud doesn't have ranged attacks? PFFFTTTTT!!!! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Have you guys even SEEN, Blade beam, OR, metor rain?> Those seem like pretty decent ranged attacks to me, and alo I never mentioned ANYTHING about flight, and you guys are also forgetting the desrucable envrioments that FF has, Bomb arrows could end just as catastroshpiucly for Link, as it would for Cloud Flalling debri doesn't usually discriminate between freind or foe.

[Zaphrasz]

You said no magic, where are these blade beams coming from?

[Fan]

Limit Breaks, and I gave Link his spin attack, and other martial maneuvers.

[Zaphrasz]

None of which are magic. His techniques are purely martial, and if Cloud has to be hit several times to charge his limit breaks in order to hit Link once, Link is winning.

[Fan]

He can merely use a hyper before the battle to make it ttwo hits, its a little ore damage but its easily takeable, and they dont even have to be direct hits, cause I find it highly unlikely, that Link is gonna hit cloud with an arrow given his EXTREME speed, I mean for christ sake, the ma to a magnum shot to the head at point blank range, its not like a single bomb arrow is gonna kill him.

[Innis Cabal]

I lied, im a dirty person

1. Link dosnt get items, neither does Cloud.
2. There is no HP. An arrow shot my friend is lethal.
3. Sniper skills work. Cloud won't see it comming. He clearly isnt bright
4. Please, for the love of all that's holy, use spell check. Open a word doc and copy/past. Something. Its nearly impossible to read your posts.
5. You've proven my point. The only way you can actually win the vs is take stuff away from our good friend Link and boost Cloud. You've lost the vs just based off that alone.

[Fan]

So, wait now your claiming that I'm boosting Cloud, and taking away from Link, thats pretty much, BS, what YOU guys are doing is nerfing him, and boosting Link, claiming that SOMEHOW he has a way to carry these hundreds of bomb arrows, which BTW SHOULDN'T EVEN WORK. Then you complain, because I try to use ONE item on Cloud, that my freind is just a little hypocritical. THEN yousay that Cloud isn't bright thats pretty much Bs, at least he can form coherant sentences, that amount ot more than just "Hiegt!" "Heiat!' "HIYA!", so the intellegence argument is clearly thrown out the window based on the fact that Link cant even form REAL words, and Cloud has on many occasion spoke for himself, and devised plans, and solutions, for stealth missions.
So why exactly would Link be ANY smarter, e was raised without an education, in a bloody forest, filled with other children, and I guess the deku tree, didn't even bother to talk to him unless he was summouned so he didn't help raise him. while Cloud was raised, by his mother, AND attened the soldier academy, which DOES force a adcademic, and tactics =regimine for its attendants.

[Innis Cabal]

There are NO random hearts pots, or anything else silly like that, like finding ruppees in grass

Your rule. Please follow them.



claiming that SOMEHOW he has a way to carry these hundreds of bomb arrows, which BTW SHOULDN'T EVEN WORK

It surprises me more you said this then anything else. Flying/jumping in the air by two stories. Limit Breaks. Cloud's sword. If we boil this all down to what should work. Lets get this fight started. Turn one. Bow and arrow to Clouds face from a good range away. Cloud dies because super speed dosnt work. Vs thread over. Link wins by theory that he does have ways to kill Link that do in fact work(have worked and will work forever and ever and ever) and Cloud's single defense is a what must be easily 200lb sword(which you've stated is grafted from multiple swords that can be removed, so its modular...so case in point -again- that his weapon isnt going to work).

Lets go at this from the fantasy angle that we should have from the start. Link's ability is to use items. Its the point of the games. Use the item you get in the previous area to get the new item to beat the boss which can only be beaten by that single item. It just so happens all of those items tend to be rather nasty on single opponents. See Cloud. Also, he has magic pouchs, its clear they are. If we want to talk about a loopy inventory we can look at all the FF games. Do you want to dig on that sore spot or have i given enough proof your complaint is baseless and not a little silly?



that my freind is just a little hypocritical

Absolutly -love- this argument, its almost like your saying you've never been hypocritical yourself.

Also, because Link dosnt talk even though people ask him questions and then respond to him as if he answered with an answer makes him an idiot. Stop while your ahead and get back to the fight. Cloud did as many silly moves in AC and FF7 as any other main hero of the FF games.

[Zaphrasz]

So now Cloud gets prep time? Hey, that's fine, but you need to give both prep times if you do.

Cloud is wildly inconsistent with the damage he can take. Apparently, bullets don't phase him, but a stab wound to the shoulder takes him down.

Cloud has a few options in his fighting style, but he can't use all of them at once. If he goes for the ranged attacks, his melee abilities become worthless, and if he gets close, he can't use his ranged attacks effectively, and has to resort to his attacks that leave him wide open to a counter. Link's strategy is the same no matter what is done, remain defensive, and bleed Cloud out.

[Fan]

Okay, i'll give you the Fantasy stand-point but the whole Cloud isn't to bright arguement FAILS as Cloud went to normal shcool, PLUS a elite SOLDIER milliatary academy, which REQUIRES you to have advanced math, algerbra, and tactical skills, this whole SOLDIER thing was orignanlly done ot make up a unit of nearly unkillable SOLDIERS. sort of like Halos spartans.
And on the damage note, Cloud's damage taking ability does vary, on the scale that being impaled through the shoulder, and stuck to a wall does indeed keep you stuck to that wall, until you rip that sword out, of said shoulder. But if you meant the Geo stigma thats not a wound thats a diesases that kills people in months, if not weeks, and Cloud had it for well over a couple years

[Zaphrasz]

The training at SOLDIER academy can't be that great. Look at how its supposed best soldiers, Cloud and Sephiroth, fight, by charging in with reckless abandon, using substandard weapons.

Link isn't a genius. Heck, if this were Wind Waker Link, he would be an outright moron. He has shown, however, that he has basic problem solving skills, and understands how to fight.

[Mx.Silver]

Okay, i'll give you the Fantasy stand-point but the whole Cloud isn't to bright arguement FAILS as Cloud went to normal shcool, PLUS a elite SOLDIER milliatary academy, which REQUIRES you to have advanced math, algerbra, and tactical skills,

Knowing army tactics and algebra is one thing, but that's a specific knowledge. His own intuition is another matter, particularly in one-on-one combat and the like. Remember in early FFVII after blowing up the power plant he gets himself trapped and surrounded by shinra guards (which he only escapes from by jumping on a passing train).
He might know a fair bit about squad tactics but his battle-planning doesn't seem to be a strong-point, it's more a case of rush in and beat up on the target until it stops being a threat. If he had prep time, he'd be more likely to use it 'buffing' whereas a strategist would be scouting out the terrain and coming up with a plan of engagement that would capitalise on this.

I don't know if Link is much of a strategist, but from what I've seen Cloud probably isn't. He might not be as headstrong as, say, Yuri Hyuga but he's still not exactly the guy you want drawing-up your plans.

[CannibalHymn]

Cloud hasn't shown much common sense when it comes to getting ambushed, as the brightness comment was originally brought up in reference to, which is a huge plus for Link. If we're ignoring gameplay mechanics, there's a good chance Link would ambush snipe him with arrows before things even got started.

Failing that, Link's style of combat is quite simply superior; Cloud swings his huge sword with alarming speed for how big it is, but still pretty slowly, Link blocks with shield, maybe gets shield kinda trashed, then hits Cloud with a killing or crippling blow before he can recover to deflect it with his stupidly huge sword.

Final Fantasy is pretty much ridiculous hyperbole designed to "look cool" that functions only by virtue of its game mechanics and suspension of disbelief. If we retain the gameplay mechanic by which Cloud's stupidly unrealistic sword moves and resilience exist, we must also retain the one in which he must wat his turn to act, act only once, and wait his turn again, which, if I am not mistaken, Link is not bound to. Sorry, Cloud.

[Bago!!!]

Ignoring gameplay effects, link is doomed. Why? Because Cloud can still pull of all his nasty abilities. He pulled it off in the movie.

Block a sword that big? Link wields it incredibly fast for its size and weight. Which means when it hits, its gonna hit hard! Greatswords have that whole momentum thing for them to help them hack through stuff. This is sword that puts the greatsword to shame. Link managed to duel Kadaj, who had an incredibly faster sword meant for speed and slashing cuts. He still lost. I know from fighting against a two handed weapon, you have a better chance at dodging it than blocking it. To block with a shield against a heavy enough weapon wielded by someone strong, could break your arm because of the pure force. If the shield holds, then your arm is gonna be NUMB! And Clouds speed covers his base here. He doesn't make an attack he can't recover from.

Link's intiution doesn't seem that bad. He's lived long enough so either his pure skill is enough to keep him alive or he has a mind and knows what to do with it. He's not stupid, and no one here should make such an assumption. Besides, Link is the leader of the group, so his common sense couldn't be that bad.

Question! What school did link go to?

If Cloud can block gunfire, then by jove! he can block arrow fire! And the bomb arrow wouldn't kill him. Its a tiny bomb on an arrow.


Link is good, but AC is just plain REDICULOUS! He is a super soldier, he is epic, he is just too powerful with too many things going for him.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Rocks fall, audience wins.

[JabberwockySupafly]

Okay, i'll give you the Fantasy stand-point but the whole Cloud isn't to bright arguement FAILS as Cloud went to normal shcool, PLUS a elite SOLDIER milliatary academy, which REQUIRES you to have advanced math, algerbra, and tactical skills, this whole SOLDIER thing was orignanlly done ot make up a unit of nearly unkillable SOLDIERS. sort of like Halos spartans.

I would just like to point out that, according to the story in Final Fantasy VII
Cloud didn't get into Soldier. If you really have played FF so much as you claim, then you'd be pretty aware of this. He failed the entrance exam and wussed out by becoming a standard SHINRA guard. He didn't get any Mako treatment or anything. All the skills he recieved was due to his being cloned using JENOVA cells.

Also, quite funny how these SOLDIER guys are supposed to be so elite but are easily taken down by:

A) A clutzy teenage Ninja-In-Training
B) A talking Dog
c) A Mr.T clone with a gun on his arm
D) A Shapechanging Emo Vampire wannabe
E) A Pugilistic Waitress
F) A Flower Girl
G) An alocoholic pilot
and my personal favourite: H) A Stuffed Doll with a megaphone.

Besides, many people have pointed out you have clearly made this in Cloud's favour well before the match could start. See, that's the problem with fanboyism. You've gone into this fight with all intentions of proving only Cloud could win, so you've already put the battle in his favour before he could start. If Link can't use his other items beyond the Master Sword & Shield, then I can't possibly see how it's far Cloud can use his Limit Breaks.


I am not trying to flame or mock you in any way, shape, or form. I am simply finding the holes in your argument and simply asking for an explanation beyond "Because he's just so much cooler!" that fanboys tend to give.

I am actually quite a fan of the Final Fantasy series, and have played all of them (yes, even Mystic Quest) numerous times and quite enjoyed them. Not my all-time favourite game series (more of a Shin Megami Tensei guy), but good nonetheless. So, don't look at this as an attack, I am simply trying to help you understand what all of us are getting at. In order for a Vs. to work correctly, the fight has to be on equal grounds. Either they both get their best stuff, or they both get nothing.

[Fan]

We're going by Ac cloud here people, and I believe someone brought up the interesting arguement, that it was possible to dodge arrows, the same way you dodge gunfire, gee isn't that just CRAZY (sarcastic) I guess now Link has to face someone is close combat, which by all of your arguements means he loses in close combat, due to Link having all the best possible non-mask oriented, equipment, EXCLUDING the Din's Fire, Myrue's Love etc. Then i really dont see how he stands a chance considering Cloud is rather fast swinging the big sword he has, and can block a guy BUILT for speed, AND wieiding a magic weapon similar in powetr against good guys, as the master sword. I believe the main arguement for Link winning everyting IS that you guys immdieately go to the "Oh, hes an avatar of a god, that killed it self making the sages, and tri force." Wich is pretty much turth, since we're ignoring the oracle of seasons, and that other game that went with it.

[Artemician]

@FF Fanboy:

Look me lad...it's seriously very hard to follow your arguments due to your lengthy preamble, and rather unique grammar structure. I'm not going to say it's totally unreadable, but I think everyone here would appreciate if you took some time to spellcheck your posts before you hit the submit button.

*

Getting back on topic, I do think FF Fanboy's point about Cloud's speed is especially pertinent. Take a look at this video (http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=4UwQEnjTbDs&feature=related).

Cloud's already moving at ludicrous speeds even before he starts using Materia. He dodges energy blasts, has impeccable balance on a curved roof, and is more than capable of doing Wire Fu. Granted, the sword itself is slow, but if he dumps it and just goes for punching Link's lights out, I think our hero of time is done for.

FF7 humans appear to be on a different scale for Hylians.

[Mx.Silver]

Cloud's already moving at ludicrous speeds even before he starts using Materia. He dodges energy blasts, has impeccable balance on a curved roof, and is more than capable of doing Wire Fu. Granted, the sword itself is slow, but if he dumps it and just goes for punching Link's lights out, I think our hero of time is done for.

FF7 humans appear to be on a different scale for Hylians.
Is he seriously likely to drop his sword and go for punching though? I can't really see him adopting that strategy, as I don't think he's ever done so before.
Still though, I will grant that his agility is a strong advantage. Link's Smash Bros. and Soul Calibur incarnations have been able to pull-off some ridiculously fast sword attacks as well, but I'm not sure if those abilities would translate to this fight.

[Tengu_temp]

The original posts's grammar hurts mai branes.

I think Link would win, after a very long battle - his shield is capable of deflecting all missiles and blocking all melee attacks, and he seems to rely on speed more than Cloud, both of which give him a defensive advantage.

[SilverSheriff]

Altair comes in and assassinates them both.:biggrin:


Seriously, the Original poster is Biased. He stated that when he started the thread, argument ensues, Moderators win.

[Fan]

Your forgetting, that a shield getting hit by a 200 hundred pound sword moving at ludcrious speeds, HURTS. It usually resuslts in either a broken or numb arm, either way Link is either gonna have to drop the master sword to use the shield with the other arm, or hes gonna have to let the the man wail on him.

[Steven the Lich]

Arty, I can understand the gist of what he says.
Anyway, he's fast with his big sword anyway compared to others. And his strength would still leave one's arm numb if it was blocked by a shield, if the shield doesn't break (I am presuming that the shield in invincible for some reason) in which case it would break his arm. The only way I see link win is if he dodges, and lunges up to cloud, which is a risky endeavour. Clouds weakness is if someone can get past his sword. Unfortunately, Link doesn't ahve the proper weapon for that, since link's weapon needs some space on its own (not as much as clouds though).

FF, you gott achill a little bit. Take deep breaths. That said, try to write out sentences with a bit more before/after thought. Go over any mistakes and such. Now how about we not dwell on this. I've been told about my grammer by others a while back, and being told again and again that what I said really aggravated me. Course, I could just not like everyone else.... And no one has brought the tri-force up in this yet, so lets not go all crazy for that.

Jabber, Yeah, funny how they get beaten by the protagonists. Who could ever have seen that coming....

[Tengu_temp]

Your forgetting, that a shield getting hit by a 200 hundred pound sword moving at ludcrious speeds, HURTS. It usually resuslts in either a broken or numb arm, either way Link is either gonna have to drop the master sword to use the shield with the other arm, or hes gonna have to let the the man wail on him.

Link has perfect grip on his shield. A limit break might be able to throw it off-balance, but Cloud is much better off trying to attack from an angle where Link won't be able to block. Which has a very small chance of happening, because Link is faster.

[Fan]

Some evidence of his amazing faster than someone who can dodge bullets speed would be nice.

[Tengu_temp]

Link can reflect fireballs with his shield, and shoot arrows with such precision and speed that they hit another arrow mid-flight. Cloud has an advantage in raw power here, but Link is definitely faster.

[Fan]

Your example is his bowmanship? You can be quick on the draw, but as fast as a turtle, Tengu, and once again arrows are SLOWER than magicaly enhanced bullets.

[Zaphrasz]

Bullets in the Final Fantasy verse are simply not very effective. Perhaps ballistic technology advanced in a much different way than on Earth, perhaps the bullets are not as fast as ours, but the fact remains that untrained individuals can dodge them. Many of the sword swings that connect are clearly slower than Earth bullets. Why didn't Cloud just dodge them? His speed is wildly inconsistent.

I didn't want to mention Link's fighting game incarnations, as whether the abilities he shows are canonical or not are not clear. However, in those games, he manages to deflect blows from Soul Edge, being wielded by Siegfried. He can handle big weapons. As for speed, in Smash Brothers, he fights SONIC.

If we do not count such appearances, there are still a few hurdles Cloud has to overcome. Link is not as fast as Cloud, but he is precise. He accomplishes feats with arrows that should not be possible, such as splitting a length of rope, shooting other arrows out of the sky, and bullseyeing enemies from several hundred yards away. His mortal draw can hit so precisely that it instantly kills anyone it connects with. No, Link is not capable of outrunning Cloud, or swinging his sword faster, but he doesn't need to. He needs to outmaneuver him, and all indications of their respective fighting styles show that he can.

[Tengu_temp]

Arrows are slower than bullets, but both so fast in comparison to humans that it doesn't matter - you have to immediately react the moment the enemy is shooting, or you're dead. If Link can shoot an arrow to counter another arrow, he can easily dodge/block bullets too. Cloud would have to trick him to land an unblocked hit, and Link is smarter.

Remember that when I compare Cloud and Link's speed, I don't mean their running speed or anything like that, but their reflexes and reaction time.

[Fan]

Cloud still dodges bullets in Ac, he can EASILY do that with arrows considering they're is no cover in this situation for Link to hide behind, and as for reaction time, you have to react ALOT fater in a sword fight, at which you have to use 2 swords just to keep your gaurd up versus this person, who can merely hold up his sword, and stop someone moving, at what is probablty close to thirty MPH, with a two hundred pound sword coming down, at this guy with no ill effects.
Yeah, I'd say Cloud is pretty damned fast.

[Artemician]

Arrows are slower than bullets, but both so fast in comparison to humans that it doesn't matter - you have to immediately react the moment the enemy is shooting, or you're dead. If Link can shoot an arrow to counter another arrow, he can easily dodge/block bullets too. Cloud would have to trick him to land an unblocked hit, and Link is smarter.

Forgive me for asking, Tengu, but in which game did Link ever shoot an arrow out of midflight? I haven't played much LoZ, so I probably wouldn't know.

In fact, I'm seeing a lot of stuff being thrown around without any evidence here. I believe the video I quoted earlier was the first example in any way provided. Sources, people!

Perfect grip? Splitting rope? Where and when did these happen?

*
As an addendum, I must say that Fireball reflection isn't really a great feat of speed, given how slowly those fireballs move. If you can see them, they're slow.

[Zaphrasz]

Happens in Twilight Princess, the game this Link was said to be from.

The rope splitting happens in the level where you get the arrows. A gate is being held up with rope, and you need to shoot it in order to open the gate. Arrow shooting is part of combat in that game; you do it against any enemy that can shoot you if I remember correctly. The long distance shooting happens several times, once in the desert prior to the temple with the Mirror, and once in Kakariko village while showing off to a bunch of kids.

[Fan]

Sniper or notm, theres no cover for him to hide behind, and arrows, are EASY to dodge for Cloud, I mean seriously are you SERIOUSLY saying that someone who can dodge bullets CANT dodge an arrow? Thats like saying that the tank, a pistol cant kill can be killed wth a Rambo boot knife from the exterior.

[Zaphrasz]

In Advent Children, Cloud manages not to dodge several sword hits. In Final Fantasy 7, from the very beginning, he is getting shot at and damaged. I am saying that Cloud can't dodge just about anything.

[Fan]

This is Ac we're talking about not regular, FF7 Kadja's, little brother with long hair uses a gun, and in the fight he dodges MULTIPLE bullets from his gun, as well as blocking a guy sso FAST that he leaves an after image whemever he sprints.

[Tengu_temp]

Forgive me for asking, Tengu, but in which game did Link ever shoot an arrow out of midflight? I haven't played much LoZ, so I probably wouldn't know.


The only Zelda game I ever played, Link to the Past. An enemy shoots an arrow at you? Shoot an arrow back at him, and both arrows collide in mid-flight.
Granted, these arrows are slow in-game, but that's solely for the purpose of player being able to pull it off.


Sniper or notm, theres no cover for him to hide behind, and arrows, are EASY to dodge for Cloud, I mean seriously are you SERIOUSLY saying that someone who can dodge bullets CANT dodge an arrow? Thats like saying that the tank, a pistol cant kill can be killed wth a Rambo boot knife from the exterior.

I never said Link would use these arrows in offense. I gave his archery as an example of his fast reflexes.

[Artemician]

Happens in Twilight Princess, the game this Link was said to be from.

The rope splitting happens in the level where you get the arrows. A gate is being held up with rope, and you need to shoot it in order to open the gate. Arrow shooting is part of combat in that game; you do it against any enemy that can shoot you if I remember correctly. The long distance shooting happens several times, once in the desert prior to the temple with the Mirror, and once in Kakariko village while showing off to a bunch of kids.

If I recall my TP correctly, all of these shots are done under perfect conditions. No interference, no cover, plenty of time to line up your shot for a perfect hit, and a static target. In fact, for the Kakariko village shot, I believe he was using a Sniper Scope to land the hit.

In a fight, these conditions are not likely to be duplicated. The lock-on range for accurate arrow firing on the fly is around 10 yards, which I believe to be a truer reflection of Link's ability to shoot stuff in the field.

The LTTP example, I believe, is not too relevant here, given how we're not even certain if they are the same person (screwy timeline theories :S)


In Advent Children, Cloud manages not to dodge several sword hits. In Final Fantasy 7, from the very beginning, he is getting shot at and damaged. I am saying that Cloud can't dodge just about anything.

As FF Fanboy said, he does dodge bullets, which, even though slower than real life firearms, appear to be moving at least as fast as arrows. He does this at practically point-blank range, whilst engaged in combat with another person.

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=Now5jv53Ihg&feature=related

[Zaphrasz]

The time it takes to set up a shot depends on who is playing. Shooting arrows out of the air while under attack is not something done under optimal circumstances, and not against a static target.

[Fan]

But thats not Twlight princess link, thats a enitrely different game.

[Zaphrasz]

I wasn't the one who mentioned a Link to the Past. My example comes from Twilight Princess.

[Fan]

Hmm, I thought you mentioned the arrow spliting of a rope?
And excuse me but I refused to play Tp, after the 3rd boss on the mounted thing.
So could you please explain to me WHEN he did that?
And once again Cloud is faster than bullets, he is certainly faster than arrows.

[Zaphrasz]

The rope splitting takes place in Twilight Princess, during the Goron level, the second temple, I think.

If we follow the logic that dodging one thing necessarily means that all other things can be dodged, Link has the reflexes to shoot an arrow out of the air. He can handle Cloud's speed.

[Fan]

:smallconfused:I'm not saying that all things can be dodged, its just that it IS humanly possible to dodge arrows, but not to dodge bullets. And once again where does the arrow reflection thing come from?

[Zaphrasz]

Twilight Princess. It is a basic combat mechanic, so basic that I can't find a video of it. This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ3PkTbFxsU), at 2:18 in particular, will have to do.

[Artemician]

The rope splitting takes place in Twilight Princess, during the Goron level, the second temple, I think.

If we follow the logic that dodging one thing necessarily means that all other things can be dodged, Link has the reflexes to shoot an arrow out of the air. He can handle Cloud's speed.

As I said earlier, Tengu's example of shooting an arrow out of the air comes from LTTP. It's not relevant in the context of this discussion, given that whether the Link presented in LTTP is the same link as the TP Link is up for debate.

In addition, while dextrous motor skills are all related to a certain extent, dodging a fast moving projectile fired from a firearm is functionally the same as dodging a fast moving projectile fired from a bow. While shooting arrows out of the air is an awesome display of agility, it is *not* totally similar to blocking sword blows to the extent that dodging arrows/bullets are.

However, this isn't really relevant anyway, so... yeah.

[SilverSheriff]

jeez, Cloud is a whiny Emo kid, poorly written at that.

Cloud probably couldn't dodge a bullet if he was made by a company with a half-decent writing staff.


One thing is for certain: nobody, not even a Superhuman can dodge an projectile thats coming right at them without moving in a direction before-hand.

I propose a Link VS. A half-decent character thread.

[Fan]

{Scrubbed}

[Tengu_temp]

AC Cloud is an emo. FF7 Cloud is pretty cool. No, not in the Naruto way (anyone got a link to that image, by the way?).

As for the superhuman stuff - well geez, dunno if you noticed, but Final Fantasy is not exactly the most realistic setting ever.

[Zaphrasz]

While shooting arrows out of the air is an awesome display of agility, it is *not* totally similar to blocking sword blows to the extent that dodging arrows/bullets are.
Ok, fair point. My point was meant to be similar, that dodging bullets does not mean that Cloud is fast enough to constantly block Link.

Also completely irrelevant to the discussion, but Cloud is not cool, nor is Naruto, nor is Link for that matter. Cloud is a loud, poorly developed nutjob, Naruto is a loud, overly flashy idiot, and Link is lacking in any character at all.

[Artemician]

jeez, Cloud is a whiny Emo kid, poorly written at that.

Cloud probably couldn't dodge a bullet if he was made by a company with a half-decent writing staff.


One thing is for certain: nobody, not even a Superhuman can dodge an projectile thats coming right at them without moving in a direction before-hand.

I propose a Link VS. A half-decent character thread.

{Scrubbed. Photos of political figures are not a good idea here.}

[Fan]

Man, the mods sure are gonna be busy scrubbing posts today, since I've told EVERYONE in this thread, not to say those kind of things while in this room TWICE.

[Artemician]

Man, the mods sure are gonna be busy scrubbing posts today, since I've told EVERYONE in this thread, not to say those kind of things while in this room TWICE.

Not particularly. This is pretty mild as trolls go.

*

Getting back to the discussion, can anyone enlighten me on Link's more advanced fighting techiques? I've never got the patience to find the latter Golden Wolves, and as such have never seen the Great Spin or Helm Splitter.

In what way do they compare to Cloud's wire-fu as demonstrated in FF:AC?

[SilverSheriff]

{Scrubbed}

thanks for the sarcasm.


{Scrubbed}

I have insulted neither you or any other posters of this thread, just the terrible story of Final Fantasy VII. {Scrubbed}

Cloud is not that good a dodging things, he was already in motion moving away from the shooter. If Cloud wasn't moving already at that moment, he would have been hit, because he was paying attention to Kadaj or whatever his name was.

same runs with Link. If Link shot an arrow at Cloud while he was looking around to find said shooter, Cloud would be hit.

[Revanmal]

Not particularly. This is pretty mild as trolls go.

*

Getting back to the discussion, can anyone enlighten me on Link's more advanced fighting techiques? I've never got the patience to find the latter Golden Wolves, and as such have never seen the Great Spin or Helm Splitter.

In what way do they compare to Cloud's wire-fu as demonstrated in FF:AC?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6XnBHVHVxk&feature=related

Thar be video.

[Zaphrasz]

I will outline his attacks as I remember them:

Final Strike: If an enemy is prone, Link can execute a jump stab, dealing a lot of damage. Not exactly useful here, as Cloud only goes down when he is dead, and Link can't afford the extra movement.

Shield Bash: Useful. He can attack while blocking, and deflect heavy blows.

Helm Splitter: Jumps and slices the enemy's face, landing behind them. Also not useful, as he can't afford to put his guard down that much.

Back Slice: A rolling parry that leads to an attack from behind. Enemy attacks, Link rolls to the side, then slashes the enemy from behind. Could be nice.

Jump Slam (Don't remember the name):Charges up an attack, then jumps, hits the ground, sends shock waves. Also not useful, his guard will be down, and he doesn't gain much from it.

Mortal Draw: A single slice, it instantly kills an enemy who gets hit by it. He again has to put his guard down an execute something of a feint, so I think it only would work if Cloud attempt a bull rush or something similar.

Great Spin: When at full health, his spin attack gets stronger. Uh...not so exciting.

The shield bash, Mortal Draw, and Back Slice as just about the only decent ones here for this fight. Without the Shield bash, Link loses this fight, the back slice gives him a form of retaliation, and the Mortal Draw can just end the fight, but it takes some set up.

[Fan]

thanks for the sarcasm.



I have insulted neither you or any other posters of this thread, just the terrible story of Final Fantasy VII. Why would you classify me as a troll?

Cloud is not that good a dodging things, he was already in motion moving away from the shooter. If Cloud wasn't moving already at that moment, he would have been hit, because he was paying attention to Kadaj or whatever his name was.

same runs with Link. If Link shot an arrow at Cloud while he was looking around to find said shooter, Cloud would be hit.


{Scrubbed} i have informed the Fourmites multiple times,about my DISTINCT hatred of people who insult FF, and how it is the ONE thing that gets me going, that and you insulted emo's I myself am emo, and I take offense at that, {scrubbed}
1: Preforming an action, that you have been informed is like flaming to a target.
2: derogotory actions: You my freind insulted the specific part of culture that I'am a member of, that is similar to being discrimintive against someone simply because they have a big nose, or bad hair.

[Artemician]

Cloud is not that good a dodging things, he was already in motion moving away from the shooter. If Cloud wasn't moving already at that moment, he would have been hit, because he was paying attention to Kadaj or whatever his name was.

I would advise you to look at this video (http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=Now5jv53Ihg&feature=related) again, especially at 1.57 to 1.59. 2.30-2.31 and 3.08-3.12. Cloud is clearly shown dodging and parrying bullets.

[Selrahc]

One thing is for certain: nobody, not even a Superhuman can dodge an projectile thats coming right at them without moving in a direction before-hand.

Anyone could dodge a projectile that is moving without moving ion a direction before hand. If I throw a ball at you slowly it would be trivial for you to dodge out of the way. Human beings have fast enough reflexes to dodge arrows, and are just a hairs breadth from being able to catch arrows in flight. Paintballs from paintball guns travel at over 200mph, but the human record for catching unbroken paintballs one after the other is at something like 44 or 45. People can dodge out of the way of paintballs fairly easy. With real bullets? Well if someone snipes at you from a mile away you can "dodge" just by twitching without even being aware of the bullet, and while the bullet is in flight.

Humans can't dodge bullets from close range, if they start stationary. Which is perhaps what you intended to say. But a superhuman definitely could! Superhuman could mean anything. Hiro Nakamura from Heroes for example, stops time. He could be perfectly stationary as someone fires a gun at him, then stop time and walk out of the path of the bullet. The Flash from DC is capable of movement at higher than the speed of light, and could easily move out of the way of a bullet if it was fired at him.

It's not out of the question that someone physically faster, and with faster reaction times could dodge out of the way of bullets like a human could dodge that slow moving ball. (Incidentally the creature with the fastest reaction times in nature is the star nosed mole.)

[Collyer-san]

OK lets see...

Cloud, from advent children, is able to dodge Yazoo's bullets. These bullets are not traveling at the same speed that Real-world bullets do, as we can quite easily see their movement through the air. We can then assume that Cloud can dodge/deflect Links arrows.

Clouds fighting style consists of long sweeping strikes, that may leave him open to attacks ot a fast enough enemy. Link has also been seen to be very fast, mabye not arrow dodging fast, but possibly fast enough to counter attack, especially with the use of the sideways dodge manuever he has.

With Link and his shield, he is quite capable of blocking, straight on, an attack from enemies twice his size, and even Gannondorf himself, saying his arm would ge numb is not a valid argument. Link easily has the strength to overcome gannondorf, which I would say is about equal to clouds one-on-one with Sephiroth.

I belive it would be an equal fight, IF cloud did not have use of his Limits above Cross-slash. I say this because as link is unable to use Items and spells gained, Why should Cloud?

[SilverSheriff]

I would advise you to look at this video (http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=Now5jv53Ihg&feature=related) again, especially at 1.57 to 1.59. 2.30-2.31 and 3.08-3.12. Cloud is clearly shown dodging and parrying bullets.

It broke my heart to think of the resources wasted on that.

[Callos_DeTerran]

This fight is simple enough. Link dons the 'rupee-eating-armor' and puts away his sword. Cloud goes for the attack. Link uses Mortal Draw because...well...it's meant to cut people in half and that's what it does. Cloud (likely because his body will still be moving since it hasn't realized hit yet) clobbers Link something good then hits the ground. Link gets up and laments the fact he is probably broke then go and somehow seduces Tifa without even talking (because he can somehow do that).


>.> There. What's the problem with that solution there? I've used it for many an enemy and as long as the Mortal Draw starts and Link doesn't get hurt (hence the rupee eating armor) then it'll finish. Considering this likely was triggered by the event that Cloud was making a melee attack to get to those Limit Breaks you gave him, then with some proper timing this is occurring AS Cloud is attacking and maneuverable his giant sword is not, not against what is easily the fastest attack the Link has, so parrying/blocking is out of the question. Dodging means would imply Cloud giving up on that attack and not simply assuming his blow will kill Link and keeping the cut going to kill Link (again, hence the armor) before he finishes the cut. And if he does dodge then...well...once again he gave up on the attack and Link can simply set it up again, go on the offensive (until his money runs out anyway), or switch his combat method to archery, his boomerang (which has the tendency to stun those hit by it), or some other gadget. Considering the 'this is real so a stab in the heart is a stab in the heart' spirit of this exercise, Cloud is thus turned to a disadvantage and all Link needs to have finished this battle with that first cut is a bit of precision timing which he does in fact have.

[Revanmal]

Callos and Link win.

[Lostintransit]

Hmmm, This is a tricky one...

Both characters have exceptional skill with their respective blades and both have a high degree of skill and speed.

Link relies more on defense, using his shield while cloud goes for the outright attack, relying on speed to retract his weapon in a shield like manner.

For the purposes of this thread, are we treating the combatants as effectively mortal, and that you could apply somewhat realistic outcomes to events? (such as loosing a leg impedes movement?)

Hmmm, I'm going to have to say that this fight will end in a draw, or till they both die of old age! Clouds movement and reaction times appear to be faster than links but link is more skilled in deflecting attacks. This would lead to Cloud battering away at Link until link let his guard down (not happening as he is focusing on deflecting all the attacks) or link got an opening to attack (not happening as Cloud is to fast) basically its strong attack Vs strong defense.

Now with link having things like the rupee armour etc, its possible for him to forgo some defense and rely on things like his wallet(!) to keep him alive. But in the same vain Clouds limit breaks and such are more powerful than his regular attacks so that drains the defense options quickly.

I suspect that the match would end in either both dieing (hence a draw) if forced to fight or it being a stalemate.

Regards

[Revlid]

This fight is simple enough. Link dons the 'rupee-eating-armor' and puts away his sword. Cloud goes for the attack. Link uses Mortal Draw because...well...it's meant to cut people in half and that's what it does. Cloud (likely because his body will still be moving since it hasn't realized hit yet) clobbers Link something good then hits the ground. Link gets up and laments the fact he is probably broke then go and somehow seduces Tifa without even talking (because he can somehow do that).

>.> There. What's the problem with that solution there? I've used it for many an enemy and as long as the Mortal Draw starts and Link doesn't get hurt (hence the rupee eating armor) then it'll finish.

The thread is over. Link wins.

[chiasaur11]

So, it seems we have a general consensus in favor of Link.

Now, having served its purpose, we can lay this thread to rest, content in a versus thread that actually concludes, and politely thank one another for the spirited debate.

Or it can continue in pointless argument as no-one can convince others of their point, and gradually descend into Lord of the Flies style anarchy.

Either way, I'm game.

[CannibalHymn]

And excuse me but I refused to play Tp
Oh my. I need to start drinking again.

[Zaphrasz]

This is....most unusual. I thought I would have to defend Link until my arguments stopped making sense, as per usual. Reaching a conclusion is not nearly as satisfying as I thought. Where's the fun in that? It's as if all of this was an arbitrary thought exercise that had no real world value or purpose.

[Callos_DeTerran]

This is....most unusual. I thought I would have to defend Link until my arguments stopped making sense, as per usual. Reaching a conclusion is not nearly as satisfying as I thought. Where's the fun in that? It's as if all of this was an arbitrary thought exercise that had no real world value or purpose.

I think somebody has found the truth...*Summons the vs. thread ninja to do away with the enlightened one.*

[chiasaur11]

This is....most unusual. I thought I would have to defend Link until my arguments stopped making sense, as per usual. Reaching a conclusion is not nearly as satisfying as I thought. Where's the fun in that? It's as if all of this was an arbitrary thought exercise that had no real world value or purpose.

He's on to us, Floyd...

[Fan]

This fight is simple enough. Link dons the 'rupee-eating-armor' and puts away his sword. Cloud goes for the attack. Link uses Mortal Draw because...well...it's meant to cut people in half and that's what it does. Cloud (likely because his body will still be moving since it hasn't realized hit yet) clobbers Link something good then hits the ground. Link gets up and laments the fact he is probably broke then go and somehow seduces Tifa without even talking (because he can somehow do that).


>.> There. What's the problem with that solution there? I've used it for many an enemy and as long as the Mortal Draw starts and Link doesn't get hurt (hence the rupee eating armor) then it'll finish. Considering this likely was triggered by the event that Cloud was making a melee attack to get to those Limit Breaks you gave him, then with some proper timing this is occurring AS Cloud is attacking and maneuverable his giant sword is not, not against what is easily the fastest attack the Link has, so parrying/blocking is out of the question. Dodging means would imply Cloud giving up on that attack and not simply assuming his blow will kill Link and keeping the cut going to kill Link (again, hence the armor) before he finishes the cut. And if he does dodge then...well...once again he gave up on the attack and Link can simply set it up again, go on the offensive (until his money runs out anyway), or switch his combat method to archery, his boomerang (which has the tendency to stun those hit by it), or some other gadget. Considering the 'this is real so a stab in the heart is a stab in the heart' spirit of this exercise, Cloud is thus turned to a disadvantage and all Link needs to have finished this battle with that first cut is a bit of precision timing which he does in fact have.

No, your arguement is fail, simply becuase you argue that he would not notice his opponet PUTTING AWAY HIS SWORD, he would know something was fishy, a mentally reatrded monkey, on a unicycle could tell something was off, when your oppenet put away his weapon, but still had his shield out, either he's about to cast some freaky spell, o curse him with some dark Juju.

[Innis Cabal]

No, your arguement is fail

Stop right there. Instead of calling people {scrubbed} when they say they dont like FF, try to counter the arguments without insulting them, or invoking internet slang. Its also really hard to debate a Vs thread with someone gets so offended when one even accuses a story of being....rather non-unique or all togather....brilliant(Sorry I like 7 but War and Peace its not). Take a step back, breath and remember, your opinion matters just like everyone elses. Also, it only takes 3/4th of an inch to not cap your words, bold works just a well, and its alot more polite

Back to the point, well I have to wait for you to defend how Cloud would defend other then "mild observation" powers. People sheath their weapons for a varity of reasons, if Cloud is so parinoid that someone is unarming themselves to hurt him with something else, there'd be no Tifa as he'd have cut her down for sneezing.

[Revanmal]

No, your arguement is fail, simply becuase you argue that he would not notice his opponet PUTTING AWAY HIS SWORD, he would know something was fishy, a mentally reatrded monkey, on a unicycle could tell something was off, when your oppenet put away his weapon, but still had his shield out, either he's about to cast some freaky spell, o curse him with some dark Juju.

It's amazing how Link seems to be the general consensus winner, yet you still hold desperately onto any semblance of a chance Cloud may have.

Let us say that Cloud does see Link put his sword away - What then?

Cloud doesnt have any options. Either he attacks or does nothing. That's it - there is no alternative. Oh sure, he may pull out a Blade Beam or something, but then again Link can just dodge. Melee is the only way he's gonna win this, and Link has what amounts to an instant-kill melee counter. Cloud now has no chance.

[Fan]

And Cloud has 0% chance of block even though he is WAY faster than Link.
And its like 2 people arguing against twleve, thats hardly fair.

[Innis Cabal]

And Cloud has 0% chance of block even though he is WAY faster than Link.
And its like 2 people arguing against twleve, thats hardly fair.

That should be the final nail in the coffin. Link wins. If there was actually a substantial argument on the other side it should be able to hold up to any ammount of counter arguments.

[GryffonDurime]

Cloud is about as dense as a branmuffin.

With that being said, I'd just like to take a moment and point out the double standard: people keep rallying back to comparing things based on real-world physics, without paying attention to the fact that Cloud's sword alone is surely in violation of those self-same physics. It doesn't matter if air velocities tell us that an arrow is slower than a bullet if someone can casually twirl so heavy and unwieldy a blade. The weight distribution is just off.

That being said? My money's still on Link. Cloud of Advent Children is pushing post-human limits, but he's got all the adaptability and finesse of a solid oak rocking chair. I won't back that up with physics because the physics do not compute, but suffice to say I think Link is clever enough to get Cloud's goat.

[Fan]

Actually, the majoirty of arguements, have been
"Cloud sucks"
"Link winz"
and its often hard to seperate the bullcrap from whats real, THATS how frequent it is.

[Innis Cabal]

Out of four pages, there is enough thats not bullcrap to actually call this Vs thread won. I'll at least say good job for making one that we could get an answer to without 20 pages.

[chiasaur11]

So FFanboy is going for option two.

How long does everyone want to go before worshipping a pig noggin?

I vote 75 posts.

[Fan]

You fail there as well, because this is post 96#

[chiasaur11]

You fail there as well, because this is post 96#

Wow we're behind schedule.
At this rate, we won't kill anyone before a british sea vessel rescues us.

Anyone have a parachute to be irrationally frightened of?

[SilverSheriff]

Actually, the majority of arguments, have been
"Cloud sucks"
"Link Win"
and its often hard to separate the bull crap from whats real, THATS how frequent it is.

Actually the entirety of your argument has been: "Link sucks, Cloud wins." "Bigger weapons equals better." "Matrix dodge skills", etc.

wake up and smell the roses.

[Zaphrasz]

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WOwrm8DEiI) are the sword techniques. At around 5 minutes and 40 seconds comes the mortal draw. "There is no defense for this. The mortal draw deals death."

Though we may be rescued by a sea vessel, who will rescue him? [/deep]

[chiasaur11]

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WOwrm8DEiI) are the sword techniques. At around 5 minutes and 40 seconds comes the mortal draw. "There is no defense for this. The mortal draw deals death."

Though we may be rescued by a sea vessel, who will rescue him? [/deep]

A bigger sea vessel?

A space ship?

[Mx.Silver]

Actually, the majoirty of arguements, have been
"Cloud sucks"
"Link winz"
and its often hard to seperate the bullcrap from whats real, THATS how frequent it is.

Look, coolness does not equal effectiveness. There's been a few people who actually like FFVII and Cloud as a character who are saying Link wins. Is it that they're all massive rabid Link fans? Or could it be that they're actually recognising a real advantage in terms of power?

You've said it's 'unfair' that you're outnumbered here, but doesn't it seem at all odd to assume that this is just due to hatred of the lead character of what is arguably the most popular JRPG of all time? Maybe it's your own liking of Cloud that's clouding your judgement. Everyone likes to see their favourites win, but even if they can't that doesn't detract from their coolness. After all, there's not much fun in an invincible character and it just gets boring after a while. Hell, why do you think Superman still loses fights.

[CannibalHymn]

No, your arguement is fail, simply becuase you argue that he would not notice his opponet PUTTING AWAY HIS SWORD, he would know something was fishy, a mentally reatrded monkey, on a unicycle could tell something was off, when your oppenet put away his weapon, but still had his shield out, either he's about to cast some freaky spell, o curse him with some dark Juju.

W.W.C.D.?

1. Seeing an opponent, who has sheathed his sword, presumably for some special attack, hit him with a sword before he can finish. I think Cloud going in sword swinging is enough of a constant that it can be assumed as the action he would take.

2. Assume his foe has stopped fighting, which is much more reasonable.

W.W.H.t.C.?

He would get cut in half by an attack that cannot be blocked, and most likely wouldn't be, anyhow.

[Lawliet]

1-Shoot Cloud with Bomb Arrows.
2-If he comes close, put on Magic Armor and run a little.
3-Repeat step 1 and 2 as necessary.
4-????? (When Cloud is tired and hurt, close in and use Mortal Draw, with the Magic Armor on, of course)
5-Profit!!!

[Callos_DeTerran]

No, your arguement is fail, simply becuase you argue that he would not notice his opponet PUTTING AWAY HIS SWORD, he would know something was fishy, a mentally reatrded monkey, on a unicycle could tell something was off, when your oppenet put away his weapon, but still had his shield out, either he's about to cast some freaky spell, o curse him with some dark Juju.

This is not my argument. I've seen AC (haven't played FF7 though) and from everything I've heard despite the fact Cloud will see his opponent putting away his sword his reactions will still be predictible. In one case he puts away his sword because it looks like the other guy doesn't want to fight either (draw essentially until one makes a move and it's not likely to be Link since he's very much a more defensive fighter). In the other case Cloud decides to try and cleave Link in twain BEFORE he can 'cast some freaky spell, o curse him with some dark Juju.' since that's ALSO a good way to keep from being hit by a spell or dark juju, you beat down the guy casting it before he can use it.

Unfortunately in the second scenario Cloud gets cleaved in twain instead of Link. Just because Cloud would STILL attack if he saw his opponent put away his weapon, does not mean I'm assuming his stupid/has the observational skills of a wombat or that such a tactic is ill-advised either. Heck, against other people it'd be a viable tactic as has likely been proven before. It's Cloud's bad luck that this time such a tactic results in their being two equally sized pieces of Cloud and a poor as hell Link.

And for the record, when Link puts away his sword he puts away his shield too.

To Law: I don't think however this fight ends, it's not going to end in material wealth for Link. It is my adamant theory he will in fact be poorer then dirt by one method or another by the end.

[chiasaur11]

This is not my argument. I've seen AC (haven't played FF7 though) and from everything I've heard despite the fact Cloud will see his opponent putting away his sword his reactions will still be predictible. In one case he puts away his sword because it looks like the other guy doesn't want to fight either (draw essentially until one makes a move and it's not likely to be Link since he's very much a more defensive fighter). In the other case Cloud decides to try and cleave Link in twain BEFORE he can 'cast some freaky spell, o curse him with some dark Juju.' since that's ALSO a good way to keep from being hit by a spell or dark juju, you beat down the guy casting it before he can use it.

Unfortunately in the second scenario Cloud gets cleaved in twain instead of Link. Just because Cloud would STILL attack if he saw his opponent put away his weapon, does not mean I'm assuming his stupid/has the observational skills of a wombat or that such a tactic is ill-advised either. Heck, against other people it'd be a viable tactic as has likely been proven before. It's Cloud's bad luck that this time such a tactic results in their being two equally sized pieces of Cloud and a poor as hell Link.

And for the record, when Link puts away his sword he puts away his shield too.

To Law: I don't think however this fight ends, it's not going to end in material wealth for Link. It is my adamant theory he will in fact be poorer then dirt by one method or another by the end.

He robs Cloud's body, then. The sword o' physics defying should be worth something.

Besides, he has people who give him infinite money.

[Fan]

HE becuase this assumes, that Link has full rupees when he starts "rolls eyes" seriously if you get mgic damage eating armor, and a one hit kill movem, then I purpose we kick this up a notch. (is refering to materia combos, and counter/mime, infinte omnislash.)

[Innis Cabal]

Ok, take out everything you don't like from Link, then we can have the versus you want. Then it stops being a versus thread. Cloud lost

[Zaphrasz]

Fine by me, let's allow magic.

If we stay with Twilight Princess Link, he doesn't exactly have any magic. No spells, no magic gadgets, save for one. With him is Midna, the rightful heir to the rulership of the Twilight Realm. She also has the fused shadow available, and can become a Cthulhuesque (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXEElB-uvjM) otherworldy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjPz5JVy7oU) terror (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDSPEfyrnwc). That should handle Cloud.

[Fan]

First of all, theres really NOTHINg, I REALLy find cool about Link, he's a genderly ambigous excuse for an elf, that makes a living killing creatures with obvious weaknesses, and slow reflexs.

[Innis Cabal]

No obvious weakness's? You mean other then the glowing red parts that fall off when hit to much? Or the key item you get in the Monster of the Week's level?

And as for gender ambigious.....really? You had to go there of all places for a reason to not like him? And we arnt allowed to call Cloud emo? Stop it and debate like a reasonable person.

[Zaphrasz]

Perfectly reasonable. Link is not cool. Zelda is not an exercise in plot development, or a deep analysis of characters, and it doesn't pretend to be.

[Revanmal]

Seriously, Fanboy, this is just stupid. If you wanna make a thread about how awesome Cloud is, then by all means go to the Gaming forum and do it there, or something. But this isn't a VS. thread, if it ever really was one. This is you trying to show how awesome Cloud is by having him win a VS. thread against a powerful fighter.

From the beginning, it's been stacked against Link, but now, when you realize that Link is essentially unbeatable even with your conditions, you wanna weaken him further. You don't want a valid thread or debate; you want your character to win, and that's it. Seriously, it's kinda sad.

[Fan]

I was merely counter acting your MANY statements of Cloud being a whiny emo (to which I take offense being emo myself.), as well as him being poorly written (as if Link has room to talk.)

[turkishproverb]

Wow, it's like star wars fans vs. Trekkies in here.


Honestly, I'm a little annoyed at how much crap Cloud is getting all things considered. Even given the severe handicaps the scenario presents him, this isn't exactly a matter of stomp and win for Link (though I think he would probably win)

Really, just using AC Cloud is a major handicap, as he was under the effects of GEOSTIGMA and weakened through whole film. Nevermind the loss of his materia et. all.

[Lawliet]

Kinda sad indeed. Anyway, it just seems to me that you created this vs. thread to see Cloud win and cry tears of fanboy joy, but you ended up seeing your characters loose in a variety of ways. This pisses you off, so now the last argument you posted was "Link looks like a girl", wich only would make it more humiliating for your friend Cloud.
I would also like to say that i'm not by any means a FF hater. I have the freakin Collector's Box for Advent Children, it's not like i hate it or anything.

[Zaphrasz]

No, we've established that even if Link wins, he takes a huge beating in the process and/or loses a fortune.

[turkishproverb]

Kinda sad indeed. Anyway, it just seems to me that you created this vs. thread to see Cloud win and cry tears of fanboy joy, but you ended up seeing your characters loose in a variety of ways. This pisses you off, so now the last argument you posted was "Link looks like a girl", wich only would make it more humiliating for your friend Cloud.
I would also like to say that i'm not by any means a FF hater. I have the freakin Collector's Box for Advent Children, it's not like i hate it or anything.

Since your someone else who admits having the film, do you agree that AC cloud has at least one major non equiptment handicap in being infected with GEOSTIGMA?

[Revanmal]

I don't see how he would HAVE to take a beating though - one Mortal Draw is all it would take, and he doesn't even need to be hurt to do that. Unless, of course, he chooses to not use the instant-death blow, which being the humble lad he is he may hold it back until he's in dire straights.


Since your someone else who admits having the film, do you agree that AC cloud has at least one major non equiptment handicap in being infected with GEOSTIGMA?

It would depend on whether the fight takes place before or after the movie, or at what point it takes place. Isn't he cured at one point in the film?

[Mx.Silver]

I was merely counter acting your MANY statements of Cloud being a whiny emo (to which I take offense being emo myself.), as well as him being poorly written (as if Link has room to talk.)

And in so doing completely overlooked the fact that coolness doesn't matter when it comes to versus threads. You may not like Link as a character, other people may not Cloud as a characters, but that does not have any bearing on how powerful they are. In the fight as you described, Link would most likely win it. Not because he's cooler, not because Cloud is stupid, but because Link has a more effective tactic at his disposal. That is all there is to it.


I don't see how he would HAVE to take a beating though - one Mortal Draw is all it would take, and he doesn't even need to be hurt to do that. Unless, of course, he chooses to not use the instant-death blow, which being the humble lad he is he may hold it back until he's in dire straights.
Because Cloud has speed and reach and would most likely get a blow or two in before Link finished him.

[turkishproverb]

I don't see how he would HAVE to take a beating though - one Mortal Draw is all it would take, and he doesn't even need to be hurt to do that. Unless, of course, he chooses to not use the instant-death blow, which being the humble lad he is he may hold it back until he's in dire straights.



It would depend on whether the fight takes place before or after the movie, or at what point it takes place. Isn't he cured at one point in the film?

From what I remember, only after beating the BBEG and Dying temporarily.

[Lawliet]

Since your someone else who admits having the film, do you agree that AC cloud has at least one major non equiptment handicap in being infected with GEOSTIGMA?
Yes, i agree. Although at first i thought that he was not infected with geostigma (he was cured by Aerith magic-healing-water-thing near the end of the movie), if he actually is infected, well, he is screwed.
But yeah, Cloud from the game looks (and probably is) stronger than AC Cloud. AC Cloud just do cooler stuff because his arms are not actually made of cubes this time.
Still, my bets are still on Link, even if it isn't as easy as people (including me) made it look in this thread.

[Callos_DeTerran]

HE becuase this assumes, that Link has full rupees when he starts "rolls eyes" seriously if you get mgic damage eating armor, and a one hit kill movem, then I purpose we kick this up a notch. (is refering to materia combos, and counter/mime, infinte omnislash.)

FF_fanboy, I do not know about other players of LoZ but I've never spent more then twenty Rupees in that entire game, EXCEPT when using the damage eating armor which you allowed in the OP when taking away Cloud's Materia and what not. As for the Mortal Slash, the reason it'd be one hit kill is because, again, you stated it'd be realistic and not rely on game mechanics (otherwise how would one rationalize number based HP and the 'heart' system?) and in which case it IS fatal. It's MEANT to be fatal hence the Mortal Slash. The only people it isn't deadly on in that game are mini and regular bosses, which if this was LoZ based mechanics, Cloud would probably be.

I'm merely voicing tactics within the conditions you set in the OP.

As for Cloud having a handicap with the GEOSTIGMA (that's what it is, right?) TP Link has the same problem in that he is very much not as powerful as some...probably many of his previous incarnations.

[turkishproverb]

As for Cloud having a handicap with the GEOSTIGMA (that's what it is, right?) TP Link has the same problem in that he is very much not as powerful as some...probably many of his previous incarnations.

Not being as powerful isn't the same thing as being less powerful that you normally are, that's all I'm saying.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Not being as powerful isn't the same thing as being less powerful that you normally are, that's all I'm saying.

Wait...that's what I said though. TP Link isn't as powerful as the other Link's normally are, or thats the way it seems to me. Or did I miss the point entirely?

[turkishproverb]

Wait...that's what I said though. TP Link isn't as powerful as the other Link's normally are, or thats the way it seems to me. Or did I miss the point entirely?

The other links aren't the same guy. They're different people. This is the same cloud.

[Lawliet]

Wait...that's what I said though. TP Link isn't as powerful as the other Link's normally are, or thats the way it seems to me. Or did I miss the point entirely?
I think what he is trying to say is that Cloud is fighting while handicaped by the Geostigma, while this Link, although being weaker than the others, is at full power (well, kinda, he doensn't have Midna, but you get the point).

[Callos_DeTerran]

The other links aren't the same guy. They're different people. This is the same cloud.

That's...debatable since all the Links are the Hero of Time, but I see your point in this.

[turkishproverb]

I think what he is trying to say is that Cloud is fighting while handicaped by the Geostigma, while this Link, although being weaker than the others, is at full power (well, kinda, he doensn't have Midna, but you get the point).

What he said. More or less...

[Tengu_temp]

If coolness was the most important issue in vs threads, a team of Vincent, Red XIII, Yuffie and Cid could destroy the whole WH40K universe without breaking a sweat.

[turkishproverb]

If coolness was the most important issue in vs threads, a team of Vincent, Red XIII, Yuffie and Cid could destroy the whole WH40K universe without breaking a sweat.

I don't know, I think it depends on the Cid. FFIV cid could, but maybe not FFVII. :smallbiggrin:

[chiasaur11]

If coolness was the most important issue in vs threads, a team of Vincent, Red XIII, Yuffie and Cid could destroy the whole WH40K universe without breaking a sweat.

I'm not sure.
I mean WH40k has guns that shoots tiny ninja stars, giant battle cathedrals, a race with cool mecha as all its units, chainsaw everything, and CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM.

It runs on (Rule of) Cool. (Well, Cain runs on rule of funny.)

Now, if we had a team of President Richard Wilson and Mayor Mike Haggar, you'd have a case.

[Tengu_temp]

My favorite FF7 characters are cooler than Grimdark. Yeah, I'm being a shameless fanboy here.

[turkishproverb]

My favorite FF7 characters are cooler than Grimdark. Yeah, I'm being a shameless fanboy here.

hey. 40k was cool when it was half parody

[Tengu_temp]

It still is, most fanboys just don't see it.
Hmm, this topic has the potential to be turned into another WH40K thread soon. And we know what they devolve into.

[CannibalHymn]

HE becuase this assumes, that Link has full rupees when he starts "rolls eyes" seriously if you get mgic damage eating armor, and a one hit kill movem, then I purpose we kick this up a notch. (is refering to materia combos, and counter/mime, infinte omnislash.)

I [have a] purpose, as well; to end this farcial psuedo-panoply.

Behold, ophidian betrayal! This apocryphal contest has no love for the irises, shields of the noble pupil that seeks truth; wherefor the frames of garrulous perjury bend our shattered hopes?

Thus, uphold loquacious stance, and repent you grandiloquent naysayers! Your discontent solicits its meritless heart in this broken arm and breast? O! Alas these reckoning bells do wither leperous and useless under execrable, priggish fabrications. Overinflated lungfish, these enumbrated pedant phillistines!

This interlocution portends only folly, magnificent folly. All the world a farce, and woe! Woe! for those drug into its doldrum arms. I wash my hands of your base and cyclical ripostes.

[tyckspoon]

I [have a] purpose, as well; to end this farcial psuedo-panoply.

Behold, ophidian betrayal! This apocryphal contest has no love for the irises, shields of the noble pupil that seeks truth; wherefor the frames of garrulous perjury bend our shattered hopes?

Thus, uphold loquacious stance, and repent you grandiloquent naysayers! Your discontent solicits its meritless heart in this broken arm and breast? O! Alas these reckoning bells do wither leperous and useless under execrable, priggish fabrications. Overinflated lungfish, these enumbrated pedant phillistines!

This interlocution portends only folly, magnificent folly. All the world a farce, and woe! Woe! for those drug into its doldrum arms. I wash my hands of your base and cyclical ripostes.

Yeah, well, so's yer mum!

[chiasaur11]

Yeah, well, so's yer mum!

That's what your mom said. last night. When I saw her. On TV. Getting the gold medal. And following that up with a moving speech on both the hope for peace and tragic need for war. Then she invented a cure for cancer.


Okay, I just can't do this well.

[tyckspoon]

That's what your mom said. last night. When I saw her. On TV. Getting the gold medal. And following that up with a moving speech on both the hope for peace and tragic need for war. Then she invented a cure for cancer.


:smallbiggrin: Yes, she's quite an inspiring woman, isn't she.

[CannibalHymn]

Yeah, well, so's yer mum!

D=

My sadness can only be expressed through symbols, but the message must be ten characters. O cruel and ignoble world.

[chiasaur11]

:smallbiggrin: Yes, she's quite an inspiring woman, isn't she.

...
...
Yes.
I am forced to admit she is. Not bad in you know where either. Or at least that's what I heard. From your father. In the sense that he said she was flawless. And he seems an honest enough individual. And she had you.

Dang. Why must Yo Momma jokes be so hard to do, but accidental set ups for that's what she said are so easy?

[Artemician]

I'm quite amused by the huge amount of hypocrisy in this thread :O

We have people criticizing the OP for entering with a pre-set and biased opinion, for having unsubstantiated statements, and for wanting to see one side win purely because he thinks it's cooler?

Pot, meet kettle.

I've seen more of this sort of crap spewed out from others' mouths in this thread than the OP ever made.


Mortal Draw?

You do realize that the Buster Sword, while slow and clunky as hell, has one advantage over a normal-sized sword, and that is reach? Unless Link can draw his sword and teleport at the same time, he's never going to be able to perform the Mortal Draw without getting hit first. That's reach for you.


Link can dodge anee spell!!!?? one1one!

It's true that Link has been shown to be able to dodge fast enough to dodge enormously slow bone club smashes, or slow moving arrows in the same capacity that Cloud can (although he does move slower in general, and doesn't do this as consistently). As with Cloud, this doesn't mean he can dodge EVERYTHING. I'm pretty sure he can't dodge the ground turning beneath him, for one. Or a giant wave of flame that envelopes everything in a baseball-field sized patch of ground. That's Materia for you.

If you have any evidence to the contrary, feel free to supply it.


Cloud's Speed

It seems people love to ignore points...

There is direct evidence to suggest Cloud's ridiculous speed in battle, as well as his apparently magnetic boots, which allow him to walk on *anything*. Does Link do anything to match this speed?

[Oslecamo]

You do realize that the Buster Sword, while slow and clunky as hell, has one advantage over a normal-sized sword, and that is reach? Unless Link can draw his sword and teleport at the same time, he's never going to be able to perform the Mortal Draw without getting hit first. That's reach for you.


The principle of the mortal draw is that you feign vulnerability making your enemyattack, then dodge your enemy's blow on the last micro second and hit them hard on the face.

Link proved to be able to use mortal draw on oponents twice as big as him with weapons as long as the buster sword. That's good swordplay for you.



It's true that Link has been shown to be able to dodge fast enough to dodge enormously slow bone club smashes, or slow moving arrows in the same capacity that Cloud can (although he does move slower in general, and doesn't do this as consistently). As with Cloud, this doesn't mean he can dodge EVERYTHING. I'm pretty sure he can't dodge the ground turning beneath him, for one. Or a giant wave of flame that envelopes everything in a baseball-field sized patch of ground. That's Materia for you.
[/QUOTE]

Woot, so now Cloud has Materia also while Link still has to fight half naked! Why don't you give him the whole FF party and bosses since we're at it?

If Cloud can use his magical trinkets, Link can also do it. Say hello to Naryu's love+infinite magic milk, Link is now invulnerable to damage. Or Goron's tunic wich makes you highly resistant to fire or time travel or some other nasty trick. That's high fantasy magic for you.




If you have any evidence to the contrary, feel free to supply it.


If you play well enough, you can beat any challenge in Zelda whitout losing a single hearth. Be it hellfire blasts, giant demonic swords or whatever, Link can dodge/parry it.





It seems people love to ignore points...

There is direct evidence to suggest Cloud's ridiculous speed in battle, as well as his apparently magnetic boots, which allow him to walk on *anything*. Does Link do anything to match this speed?

He can kill several oponents simultaneously with just melee attacks, he can grapple flying enemies, he aims well enough to hit pretty much anything with a bow and arrows, he fights and defeats enemies wich can tear and jump trough Space-time at instant speed(TP ganon beast battle). Enough?

Plus he also has magnetic boots.

[Artemician]

The principle of the mortal draw is that you feign vulnerability making your enemyattack, then dodge your enemy's blow on the last micro second and hit them hard on the face.

Link proved to be able to use mortal draw on oponents twice as big as him with weapons as long as the buster sword. That's good swordplay for you.

Sauce?


Woot, so now Cloud has Materia also while Link still has to fight half naked! Why don't you give him the whole FF party and bosses since we're at it?

If Cloud can use his magical trinkets, Link can also do it. Say hello to Naryu's love+infinite magic milk, Link is now invulnerable to damage. Or Goron's tunic wich makes you highly resistant to fire or time travel or some other nasty trick. That's high fantasy magic for you.

This is TP Link we're talking about. Please try to pay attention. The Goron's Tunic doesn't exist. Neither does Nayru's Love.

As to whether it's fair to choose a weaker incarnation of Link than most, take that up with the OP. Meanwhile, we debate under the rules the OP set out. Advent Children Cloud, Twilight Princess Link. No ifs and buts about it. I don't cherrypick stuff from Kingdom Hearts, you also don't cherrypick stuff from Phantom Hourglass.


If you play well enough, you can beat any challenge in Zelda whitout losing a single hearth. Be it hellfire blasts, giant demonic swords or whatever, Link can dodge/parry it.

That is.. because most of these things tend to move extremely slowly and stand still while firing. I don't Link's gone up against someone that moves as fast as Cloud does before.


He can kill several oponents simultaneously with just melee attacks, he can grapple flying enemies, he aims well enough to hit pretty much anything with a bow and arrows, he fights and defeats enemies wich can tear and jump trough Space-time at instant speed(TP ganon beast battle).

Physical strenght wasn't what I was talking about. We're talking about speed and reflexes. Neither is accuracy with arrows, bar reflexive aiming. From the gameplay of TP, he locks on to targets within about 20 to 30 yards (closer to 20). That's pretty mean, but he's never locked on to something as fast as Cloud before. Hence the debate.

I've taken a look at the Beast Battle, and I'm not impressed. Beast Ganondorf moves fairly slow, for something that rips through Space-Time at "instant speed". Link's able to see its shadow slowly materialize, and has plenty of time to roll out of the way before it lands. It also has a pretty screwed sense of balance.

[GoC]

I've only read up to page 4 so this may ave been said before:


Actually the entirety of your argument has been: "Link sucks, Cloud wins." "Bigger weapons equals better." "Matrix dodge skills", etc.

wake up and smell the roses.

That is not his argument. I'm trying to give advice on how to carry on debates but it looks like the consensus is that we should revel in troll-fests and flame-wars.
His arguments:
Cloud has a large advantage in speed, agility and likely reaction times (this is a valid point and easily confirmed by the youtube vids)
Cloud's super-human body gives him both excellent dodging and blocking and very impressive amount of power and speed to his strikes (as above)
Cloud uses a heavy weapon (are we sure it's not made of super-light alloys?) that has a large advantage in reach, enough weight to block decently and would be very painful if real physics is in use (sadly this last argument doesn't work due to him not being able to wield the sword without tactile telekinesis if physics is in use)

I'd like to add one:
Uncool does not equal un-powerful. Most of the posters here consider AC to be a pathetic load of crap with a terrible plot, poor pacing, low quality voice actors and too little realism and common sense for suspension of disbelief. Due to this they will have a tendency to underestimate the characters involved.

The opposition arguments:
Link can use the money armor to take large amounts of damage while he is free to attack with impunity (using realism this is very deadly due to how a single blow can kill or disable. without realism somewhat less so)
By combining money armor and the mortal draw he has an unbeatable combo that cloud cannot bypass (though the mortal draw in the video does not appear to be fast enough that someone like AC Cloud would find it impossible to dodge, however this is indeed a deadly combo especialy due to it's repeatable nature)
Link has decent ranged attacks and his shield gives very good defence (this is true, his static defence and ranged attacks are certainly better than Cloud's)

[Mx.Silver]

I'm quite amused by the huge amount of hypocrisy in this thread :O

We have people criticizing the OP for entering with a pre-set and biased opinion, for having unsubstantiated statements, and for wanting to see one side win purely because he thinks it's cooler?

Pot, meet kettle.
Okay, this I kind of feel a need to respond to since I think it's aimed at me: I don't actually like Link. He's just a flat-out uninteresting character. Neither do I particularly care for Cloud in that respect. I can personally take or leave either of them and they'd both be in my lowest 100. I don't 'want' to see any one of them win in particular.

[Artemician]

I've only read up to page 4 so this may ave been said before:



That is not his argument. I'm trying to give advice on how to carry on debates but it looks like the consensus is that we should revel in troll-fests and flame-wars.
His arguments:
Cloud has a large advantage in speed, agility and likely reaction times (this is a valid point and easily confirmed by the youtube vids)
Cloud's super-human body gives him both excellent dodging and blocking and very impressive amount of power and speed to his strikes (as above)
Cloud uses a heavy weapon (are we sure it's not made of super-light alloys?) that has a large advantage in reach, enough weight to block decently and would be very painful if real physics is in use (sadly this last argument doesn't work due to him not being able to wield the sword without tactile telekinesis if physics is in use)

I'd like to add one:
Uncool does not equal un-powerful. Most of the posters here consider AC to be a pathetic load of crap with a terrible plot, poor pacing, low quality voice actors and too little realism and common sense for suspension of disbelief. Due to this they will have a tendency to underestimate the characters involved.

The opposition arguments:
Link can use the money armor to take large amounts of damage while he is free to attack with impunity (using realism this is very deadly due to how a single blow can kill or disable. without realism somewhat less so)
By combining money armor and the mortal draw he has an unbeatable combo that cloud cannot bypass (though the mortal draw in the video does not appear to be fast enough that someone like AC Cloud would find it impossible to dodge, however this is indeed a deadly combo especialy due to it's repeatable nature)
Link has decent ranged attacks and his shield gives very good defence (this is true, his static defence and ranged attacks are certainly better than Cloud's)

Thanks for the summary GoC. Really.

I hope that this will lend to a proper sort of debate now (at least, as proper as Vs Threads get).


Okay, this I kind of feel a need to respond to since I think it's aimed at me: I don't actually like Link. He's just a flat-out uninteresting character. Neither do I particularly care for Cloud in that respect. I can personally take or leave either of them and they'd both be in my lowest 100. I don't 'want' to see any one of them win in particular.

If anything... it wasn't aimed at you. In fact, you were one of the people that I specifically were *not* aiming this comment at. It's not everyone in this thread (heavens, no!) who's like this, but I feel that there enough such people in this thread to warrant such a comment. I'm sorry if you took offense.

[Lostintransit]

Wow, this thread went off the rails quite quickly....

A lot of the comments seem to think that applying a game mechanic to this fight makes perfect sense (Such as links mortal draw) while others are arguing to apply a more 'realistic' approach.

Now re-reading the OP's layout for this fight the following applies:

- They are fighting in a ruined Midgar
- Hit points and other game mechanics like this do not exist, however if the character has a special attack they are entitled to it.
- Equipment is limited to their swords + armors + accessories
- This is a one on one fight no outside help
- The Fight is presumed to be semi-realistic, that is for all intense and purposes follows the laws of the real world apart from shown / stated abilities (such as clouds ability to use his sword regardless of physics, or links ability to not have his arm break when he blocks a powerful attack with his shield)

Now as I originally posted, Clouds speed gives him the edge on the offensive as he can physically move faster than link, and with his reactions being higher this allows him to cover any openings in his own defense.

Now with access to all bar omnislash as his limit breaks, this allows him to use Finishing touch, which is a ranged power that instantly kills all opponents.....

Hmmm, from the footage shown Links mortal blow doesn't have that good range, and he doesn't have immunity to instant death.

I think I'm going to have to re-estimate this, Link loses. Ranged Instant Death Vs short ranged Instant Death? No contest.

Regards

[Collyer-san]

Clouds 'Finishing Touch' assumes that the opponent is stationary, and doesn't work on Boss's. We can assume in this case, that Link would have the power of an FF boss, and that Cloud would have the Power of a LoZ Boss thus also rendering Mortal Slice or what ever, also useless.

I still think it would come out at a draw.

[Lostintransit]

Clouds 'Finishing Touch' assumes that the opponent is stationary, and doesn't work on Boss's. We can assume in this case, that Link would have the power of an FF boss, and that Cloud would have the Power of a LoZ Boss thus also rendering Mortal Slice or what ever, also useless.

I still think it would come out at a draw.

Well seeing how the consensus was that link could use mortal slash....... :smallbiggrin:

I agree though, this fight from a realistic standpoint would most likely end in a draw one way or the other - old age or just no one killing the other.

[Fan]

If Cloud is losing his one hit kill, then its only fair that Link does. :p
Cause seriously Mortal slasgh although damaging, dosn't insta kill enemys with shields, OR Boss's.

I found footage of him blocking gunfire from BOTH sides, while driving his motorcycle, AND being attacked by shadow creatures, and he only gets shot ONCE. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9ShXlFok8E&NR=1)

[Mx.Silver]

If anything... it wasn't aimed at you. In fact, you were one of the people that I specifically were *not* aiming this comment at. It's not everyone in this thread (heavens, no!) who's like this, but I feel that there enough such people in this thread to warrant such a comment. I'm sorry if you took offense.

Apology accepted. It's partly my own fault anyhow, I tend to be a bit over-sensitive to criticism :smallwink:



Now with access to all bar omnislash as his limit breaks, this allows him to use Finishing touch, which is a ranged power that instantly kills all opponents.....

Hmmm, from the footage shown Links mortal blow doesn't have that good range, and he doesn't have immunity to instant death.

I think I'm going to have to re-estimate this, Link loses. Ranged Instant Death Vs short ranged Instant Death? No contest.
True, but there is a slight difference here. Cloud's attack is a Limit Break and can really only be used if he's taken a bit of a pounding (this also extends to cinematics and AC IIRC). Link's attack, on the other hand, has no such pre-requisite and he can use it from the get-go. Consequently, there's a fair chance the fight may be over before Cloud can unleash his limit break.

On a more general note: the subject of speed. I've noticed a couple of points thrown at both characters that they can't be all that fast because the bullets/fireballs they've been dodging move slower than they do in real life. I personally don't hold with this logic, because it ignores that these slower speeds are often a necessary sacrifice of the design process.
Slowed bullets are a common visual phenomenon because if they weren't slowed down the audience would not be able to see them. This is important because without it it's difficult to tell whether a character with super-fast reflexes is actually dodging the bullets or if the gunmen are simply lousy shots as you can't actually see the character dodge the projectiles. Plus it looks cooler.

With in-game effects the reasoning is even more obvious: the dodges have to be pulled-off by a human player. If the projectiles were moving at a normal speed it would be incredibly difficult if not downright impossible for a human player to accomplish any such move.

[GoC]

On a more general note: the subject of speed. I've noticed a couple of points thrown at both characters that they can't be all that fast because the bullets/fireballs they've been dodging move slower than they do in real life. I personally don't hold with this logic, because it ignores that these slower speeds are often a necessary sacrifice of the design process.
Slowed bullets are a common visual phenomenon because if they weren't slowed down the audience would not be able to see them. This is important because without it it's difficult to tell whether a character with super-fast reflexes is actually dodging the bullets or if the gunmen are simply lousy shots as you can't actually see the character dodge the projectiles. Plus it looks cooler.

However going it that way you get a massive inconsistency.
The speeds he moves at in all other instances are far slower than the speeds required to dodge a bullet.

[Zaphrasz]

The Mortal Draw doesn't work on enemies with heavy armor or shields. Cloud has neither, so how is he surviving this attack? Cloud has shown an inability to dodge every attack his opponent throws at him, and this attack needs only hit once.

[Fan]

He uses, his sword as a shield, and the speeds at which him, and Sephie were moving, were ITNENTIONALLY slowed, so now your going to say the people, and the martix weren't moving fast? Becuase it just seems, that your main arguement, is that slow motion is actually intended to be seen as slowm, no, its actually slowing IT down, so that you can interpret it.

[Zaphrasz]

The entire movie is not in slow motion. Several parts are in real time, particularly the moment where Cloud gets stabbed, where he had several seconds to react, but didn't.

Cloud's sword can't be in two places at once. If it is attacking Link, it can't block Link. That is the whole reason Link has an advantage here, he can block and retaliate.

[Fan]

Actually, I have an example.

when cloud fights Kadja, he is BOTH attacking, and defending it isn't even that hard for Cloud all it takes is a slight trajectory change in his swing so that way he can knock the blade from links hands, bam he loses.

[Zaphrasz]

The only thing that ever managed to knock the blade from Link's hand (and it was Ocarina of Time Link) was a hit from Ganon, the pure manifestation of the power of the Gods. There will be no loss of sword here.

So, which Cloud are we accepting here? In the movie, he shows wildly inconsistent abilities. It also isn't a matter of being Just That Good, if Cloud is attacking, he can't block. He can opt to change his attack to a block, but that takes time, time in which Link will have bisected him.

[Fan]

Once again, your ASSUMING, that mortal slash is unblockable, and for one Ganons a wuss, a TOTAL wuss, and he didn't even HAVE the tri force of power when he did that.

[Zaphrasz]

Didn't have the Triforce? What were those glowing triangles on the back of his hand then? Though it is a separate argument, Ganon is no wuss. He has overtaken realms of existence, challenged the power of the Gods, and holds a piece of them. He makes Sephiroth look like a miniboss.

As for assumptions, this is a versus thread. Everything here is an assumption. I am assuming that Link can take a few solid hits, and retaliate with an instant kill attack. This argument is backed up by dialog in the game, actions Cloud has taken, and common sense. What more do I need?

[Steven the Lich]

Question. Are we presuming that the master sword will affect Cloud as if he was a evil villain? Because from what I hear, the Master Sword is evils bane, but is not that useful against a good guy. I heard in the Link vs. Sauron Thread that the Master Sword does nothing against the good townsfolk. Most of the creatures that Link faces are evil (Due to working with Ganon, Zant, etc), so the Master Sword would work on them. However, as far as we know, thats it. I saw Advent Children recently, and you know what? For someone who has a serious disease, he holds up quite well with Sephiroth. Sephiroth, who is the most elite soldier in SOLDIER. Cloud also has the ability to jump all over the building, and can fight on almost all terains (Even with the ground falling with other pieces of a building), and can cut through falling rubble with ease. And that is without Materia. He also dodges bullets (Whether they are or not the normal speed matters little, he still dodges them). Apparently, Cloud Also has home field advantage, which works better in his case (He can jump about, and unless Link can pursue, he can evade him). Also... Omni slash... the move that instantly kills Sephiroth in AC. Besides, as FF Fanboy said...

Cause seriously Mortal slasgh although damaging, dosn't insta kill enemys with shields, OR Boss's. And while I never played the game, this point makes sense. Cloud definitely is a boss if we look at it like that.
I say Cloud over Link anyday.
I find FF 7 to be one of the best storylines among the series. Saying it is poorly written needs to be justified. I find one of the negatives of it is the graphics.

EDIT: Makes Sephiroth look like a mini boss? Sephiroth can go all out on Ganon's demon pig bottom! Sephiroth could defeat Ganon with all his abilities and spells. Also... LoZ is notoriously famous for bosses with weakpoints... Doesn't Ganon have a few of those? Oh yeah, Sephiroth also called forth a giant meteor that surely would have dealt a ton of damage to the planet, and was only stopped by a massive spell (Which could only be used if Sephiroth was defeated, I think), and manipulated Cloud into handing over the Materia that allowed Sephiroth to call upon the meteor. Has Ganon done such feats?

[Zaphrasz]

The Master Sword is a sword. It cuts down trees, it is stated in Soul Caliber to be perfectly balanced, the Mortal Draw was taught to Link by someone without the Master Sword, so it can be assumed to be deadly anyway. Regular swipes with it won't be as impressive, but they will do damage.

I find FF 7 to be one of the best storylines among the series. Saying it is poorly written needs to be justified. I find one of the negatives of it is the graphics. The blocky graphics were no problem with me. If anything, it was the prerendered backgrounds that drove me crazy. The storyline was filled with unnecessary plot twists, character development that made no sense, unrealistic dialog, conflicting abilities of characters, leaps in logic and questionable motivations.

[Tengu_temp]

I find FF 7 to be one of the best storylines among the series. Saying it is poorly written needs to be justified. I find one of the negatives of it is the graphics.

Lego people! Backgrounds and battle graphics are pretty good, though. I agree on the good storyline. It makes no sense only if you don't understand it.

[Zaphrasz]

The "You just don't get it" defense?

[Artemician]

However going it that way you get a massive inconsistency.
The speeds he moves at in all other instances are far slower than the speeds required to dodge a bullet.

This is why I believe we should assume that characters are able to move at the speeds demonstrated in the native games themselves. Cloud has shown the ability to dodge objects that move about as fast as arrows, and Link has shown the ability to block objects that travel as fast as uh... slow-moving arrows.

We take a common set of physics, but individual abilities to circumvent these laws top general guidelines.


The Mortal Draw doesn't work on enemies with heavy armor or shields. Cloud has neither, so how is he surviving this attack? Cloud has shown an inability to dodge every attack his opponent throws at him, and this attack needs only hit once.

Link needs to *position* himself close for the Mortal Draw. Cloud outreaches him. You see where this is going? With any combatant that's moving about as fast, if not faster than you, the reach difference is going to be *extremely* difficult to overcome. Given that Cloud has shown pretty uncanny footwork (fighting on sloped and slipper domes, running on a falling tree trunk, mid-air wire-fu, etc), Link doesn't appear likely to be able to outmaneuver Cloud. Link will have to move faster than Cloud and engage him and perform the Mortal Draw faster than Cloud can dodge, which doesn't appear very likely.

[Tengu_temp]

The "You just don't get it" defense?

Feel free to call it like that. From my experience, in many cases people call something pretentious when they don't understand it. The plot of FF7 made perfect sense to me, and the only bigger holes in it were those that come from its nature as a video game.

Hmm, this is getting off-topic. But meh, I gave my statement and all the arguments still make me stand by it.

[Mx.Silver]

However going it that way you get a massive inconsistency.
The speeds he moves at in all other instances are far slower than the speeds required to dodge a bullet.

Not necessarily.

It takes energy to move fast. Faster you go, the more energy you use and the more tired you get. He may just not have the energy to move at that kind of speed all the time. A sudden, adrenaline-fuelled dodge, particularly one that only moves as far as is absolutely vital, is a lot less taxing than maintaining that speed in a sprint.

[Zaphrasz]

Cloud doesn't tend to take advantage of his reach. He gets in close. Link needs to time his attack well, in the split second between Cloud attacking and Cloud switching to defending. He has shown the ability to react that quickly.

The fact that it was a video game is where most of the plot problems come in. That's why most good video games don't pretend to have a deep plot, and opt for gameplay. In those games, I don't have to spend hours flipping through text boxes. Heck, that was the biggest problem with the more modern Zelda games. Also, why was I the only one who was sad when Biggs and Wedge died? I cheered when Aeris died, as she contributed only a forced subplot to the story, but come on! Biggs! Wedge! I will not forget your sacrifice

[CannibalHymn]

Let us consider the characters, and the fabric of the world around them. The Legend of Zelda is a metaphorical analysis of the mental instability of F. Scott Fitzgerald's wife, Ganon representing the madness that ate through his dearest love, Link representing his childish and naive, but pure and powerful love for her and hope of saving her. Just as the Eyes on the bilboard were the eyes of God, in the reality created by some within the Great Gatsby, Link is the all-powerful savior created in his own psuedo reality, where the fantasies of power over the demons of the mind are the simpler powers of the blade over demons of flesh. To show Childish purity, the character is made a child, or a young man, and his experiences based upon the imagination of the game's designer as a child. Link is too pure to speak, having never learned the words that lead only to sorrow and conflict, to escape the depressing web of words in which Fitzgerald became irrevocably ensared to no avail in his attempt to save his Zelda. He is the manifestation of Fitzgerald's will to save his love, the concept of all unconditional love, existing long after the man and woman had died. Seen in this light, Cloud is simply another representation of mental strife, and against him, Link is an unstoppable force of pure concept, his bow as burning gold, his blade a silver spark so swift and silent it slice would slay him before he was even around. However many blows he takes, however badly his body is broken, Link will live as long as love lingers, defiant against hopelessness, in the hearts of humanity, its hero and champion.

[chiasaur11]

Feel free to call it like that. From my experience, in many cases people call something pretentious when they don't understand it. The plot of FF7 made perfect sense to me, and the only bigger holes in it were those that come from its nature as a video game.

Hmm, this is getting off-topic. But meh, I gave my statement and all the arguments still make me stand by it.

With all due respect for all involved, this thread getting off topic isn't the worst thing in the world. We're getting into the accusations of hipocracy, "no you're wrong", and blatent fanboyism part of a versus thread. Like a wise man once said about a different topic "They killed and killed until it was all about killing and not about fun anymore".

Happens to most of these threads after five pages. Not necessarily anyone's fault. It just needs to die as we seem to be long past the point whre anyone will change opinions.

[Lostintransit]

Right been discussing this with a friend....

In advent Children cloud is wearing a Ribbon, The Ribbon makes him immune to all status effects - including instant death, now Mortal strike instant kills does it? How nice cloud is immune.

Then link gets bashed again.

So this is a draw or a win for cloud. Speed + immunity to your opponents best chance at winning? that equals a victory, or even a draw for cloud.

Regards

[Zaphrasz]

The ribbon does not make you immortal. The mortal draw is not a magic ability, it isn't a status effect, it just hits you in such a way that you die. Cloud is not immune to being sliced by weaponry, and that is all this is.

[CannibalHymn]

no liek listen cluod is soo strong he could get up after being CUT IN HALF and jsut omnislash Link to death, like, he's so strong he can jump over buildings with just his abs and he's so tough getting cut in half doesn't even phase him.

[Artemician]

Cloud doesn't tend to take advantage of his reach. He gets in close. Link needs to time his attack well, in the split second between Cloud attacking and Cloud switching to defending. He has shown the ability to react that quickly.

But I do perceive that Cloud has used the reach offered by the Buster Sword on more than one occasion, such as in his "Cavalry Saber" scenes with his motorbike, or when fighting Kadaj (http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=8vQKteQ98eI&feature=related), where he uses the superior reach of the Buster Sword to strike safely at Kadaj, who, although moving faster, is using a shorter weapon.

Parts of the video you might want to look at are 2.08-2.13 and. 3.51-2.53.


With all due respect for all involved, this thread getting off topic isn't the worst thing in the world. We're getting into the accusations of hipocracy, "no you're wrong", and blatent fanboyism part of a versus thread. Like a wise man once said about a different topic "They killed and killed until it was all about killing and not about fun anymore".

Happens to most of these threads after five pages. Not necessarily anyone's fault. It just needs to die as we seem to be long past the point whre anyone will change opinions.

With all due respect to the parties involved, I fail to see how non sequitters and unfunny one-liners are interesting.

At least this way we try to engage our brains. Debate doesn't always need to be about trying to convince others to your point of view. It's also a leisure activity.

[Zaphrasz]

At least this way we try to engage our brains. Debate doesn't always need to be about trying to convince others to your point of view. It's also a leisure activity.
This is something I agree with. We're just having fun here.

Fine, sometimes Cloud takes advantage of reach, and other times he doesn't. Look at the Sephiroth battle, where Cloud gets right up to him. Other times, they are far closer than their respective weapons require them to be. There is no reason to do this, but he does it anyway.

[Fan]

Sephie's weapon is like TWICE as long as Clouds weapon, its like 10 feet long, me, and my freinds have even made jokes, about how if Sephie, had actually fought cloud, he would have merely kept him at bay, his longer, than should be possible sword sticking out from his stomach.
So what Cloud did in that fight was actually SMART, when your used to using your reach, in a fight, and someone has MORE reach than you, you tend to try, and nullify that reach to make it even.

[CannibalHymn]

I would say it's the exception, rather than the rule, that Cloud keeps a foe at bay with his reach. Not knowing he should do so, he has no reason to do so, and thus probably won't. Link, on the other hand, has no reason not to just open the fight with a Mortal Slash and get it over with before Cloud can figure out, and, based on the way several people in this thread play Link, probably would.

Cloud's also specifically not going to want Link far away from him if he notices the ranged weapon, so he's more likely to take things in close than he normally would be, if nothing else.

[Zaphrasz]

Yet he kept using the largest sword he had. You stated that he can swap weapons, so fast that you don't need to consider the time. Why didn't he take further advantage of being in close range with his multitude of weapons? The answer is the same as every other Final Fantasy reason, because people somehow think it looks cool.

[Artemician]

This is something I agree with. We're just having fun here.

Fine, sometimes Cloud takes advantage of reach, and other times he doesn't. Look at the Sephiroth battle, where Cloud gets right up to him. Other times, they are far closer than their respective weapons require them to be. There is no reason to do this, but he does it anyway.

For the Kadaj/Lutz fights, I put it down to the way fights don't often pan out the way you want them to most of the time. Both of these people move at speeds that surpass Cloud, and in one fight especially, it was a three-on-one, where Cloud was being distracted by other people. In this case it's easy for one person to pin Cloud down while another attacks him before he can guard.

In addition, a large number of these "close-ups" seem to occur in mid-air, where footwork, obviously, is a great deal more difficult and leverage harder to gain. It's definitely a lot harder to maneuver in a 3-Dimensional medium than on the ground.

And as for Sephiroth, it should be noted that Sephiroth has a weapon with even greater reach than the Buster Sword. Cloud appears to be using battle tactisc (for once!) - by getting close, he renders the Masamune infeffective, at the cost of his own weapon. However, the Buster Sword up close is basically a big, blocking chunk of metal, while the Masamune is simply a thin ribbon. In this way, it's to his advantage to attack up close.

[Zaphrasz]

Now, I am no sword fighting expert, but why didn't Cloud press the advantage, and use a shorter weapon he could more easily put his weight on? At that close range, what good is his own seven foot sword? What happened to the various extra weapons he is supposed to have?

[Tengu_temp]

Link has another advantage here - Cloud has proven to be pretty much vulnerable to mental attacks. Link can easily make him twitch (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FPxY8lpYAUM) and make some sort of a mistake.

[Fan]

He did in fatc DUAL WIELD, said other swords, alternating swords between attack, and defense, the only reason he reassembled his sword was so he could cut through the thirty TONS of rock coming at him.

[Zaphrasz]

Why would he need to do that? In Final Fantasy, it has been established that a sword as thin as Sephiroth's can cut through debris, why shouldn't Cloud be able to with his smaller sword? One wonders why they don't construct buildings out of whatever those swords are made of.

[chiasaur11]

Why would he need to do that? In Final Fantasy, it has been established that a sword as thin as Sephiroth's can cut through debris, why shouldn't Cloud be able to with his smaller sword? One wonders why they don't construct buildings out of whatever those swords are made of.

Contracted out the buildings to B.S. Johnson?

Then people would pick up the buildings for swordfights with even larger weapons?

[Fan]

Masamune, has been established as the sharpest blade in the FF UNIVERSE, that is why it can cut through buildings, and the same rule aplies to Ultima weapon, it is the good verision of masamune.

[Zaphrasz]

Still doesn't explain why it didn't cut through Cloud's sword.

[Fan]

When two equal forces collide, the net force equals zero.

[Zaphrasz]

You said that the masamune was greater than any sword. Why didn't the debris cut the sword in this case? Do you really want to keep going into physics in Final Fantasy?

[Fan]

It WAS the SHARPEST sword, ultima weapon on the other hand is the good version of masamune, dont you guys understand, that I was merely refericning this becuase it was a decnt comparsion, for every action, there is an equal, and opposite reaction? Well Ultima weapon is Masamunes opposite.

[CannibalHymn]

When two equal forces collide, the net force equals zero.

Either you think that law works in a way different way than it actually does, or you're using it as a metaphor that isn't really applicable.

If the force applied to both blades is equal, when they collide, moving in opposite directions, the net force will be zero, however, the force exerted on each blade will be immense, and with the smaller area in which the Masamune applies its force on the buster sword, it is very likely the buster sword will be cut by the very sharp sword. If a guy jumps onto your sword with the same force you stab him, they don't both just stop, he just gets stabbed even more easily than he already would have been.

[Zaphrasz]

Newton's law is fun. If you swipe your sword at debris, the debris hits the sword with an equal force. By your logic, the debris should be fine, after all, it is hitting the sword with an equal force.

This may be the aforementioned moment where my arguments stop making sense. I need a break, but I'm always happy to debate something, particularly something as light as two fictional characters fighting to the death for no real reason.

[Fan]

It was a metaphor, and both swords are INSANELY magical,

[chiasaur11]

It was a metaphor, and both swords are INSANELY magical,

To paraphrase Dave Barry: Okay, it's a metaphor, but it's a really, really stupid metaphor.

There's very little point to starting a versus thread when you have an outcome in mind from the onset and won't accept alternatives. Either people repeat what you already think, or, more likely, enough people disagree to make your opinion mostly irrelevant. Unless you back Squirrel Girl.

On an entirely unrelated note, what do you think of the spin-offs to Final Fantasy? I quite enjoy tactics advanced myself.

[Lostintransit]

Ah, debating how I've missed you....... :smallsmile:

In response to the reply that mortal slash is not an instant death move, It kills the opponent in one hit regardless of how many 'normal' hits they would take to kill? If thats the case then it causes an instant death 'effect' ie 1 hit kill.

Now in FF7 if something causes a 1 hit kill it is an instant death effect, meaning the ribbon negates it.

So the 1 hit kill aspect of the attack is negated, now is their an instance in twilight princess where you can hit someone with this attack yet they survive? if so does it do regular damage or just nothing? If it does nothing then cloud would be immune, but if it does regular damage then it would still be a regular hit, just not a 1 hit kill.

Also the rupee armor? How exactly does that work? is a 1 heart damage attack 1 rupee or is it you are hit therefore lose X rupees? Whats the maximum amount of rupees link can carry? (Remember the OP said he can't find any lying around!)

The reason for this is cloud can quite comfortably do more 'hearts worth' of damage than link has hearts or rupees, but this starts to get complicated as the OP said game mechanics weren't to be used (Nicely negating the need for limit break charging....) So we must sort out how the rupee armor works!!

Another point, what stops cloud just sucking link into oblivion? If I remember correctly the OP said both characters instant death moves were removed, so it came more down to swordplay, which is what i think the OP was trying to figure out. In that case Clouds superior speed, reflexes and mobility help him continue to press the advantage whilst links shield and sword combo allow for a strong defense.

Also Cloud can, and does, fight with the various weapons that function as his sword, meaning he can, and does, wield two or more weapons, nicely filling out the can't attack and block criteria.

I'm still down on the side of a Draw or a minor victory to cloud (Ie he is the last one to bleed to death from both killing each other at almost the same time!)

Oh another point, are the attacks from the master sword considered 'good'? If so then the Zeidrich would halve the damage from his sword blows, also as this fight seems to be taking place in Midgar and therefore on Gaia, so whenever cloud dies Aeirth just keeps bringing him back... so....... :smallbiggrin:

Regards

[Mx.Silver]

Ah, debating how I've missed you....... :smallsmile:

In response to the reply that mortal slash is not an instant death move, It kills the opponent in one hit regardless of how many 'normal' hits they would take to kill? If thats the case then it causes an instant death 'effect' ie 1 hit kill.

Now in FF7 if something causes a 1 hit kill it is an instant death effect, meaning the ribbon negates it.

So the 1 hit kill aspect of the attack is negated, now is their an instance in twilight princess where you can hit someone with this attack yet they survive? if so does it do regular damage or just nothing? If it does nothing then cloud would be immune, but if it does regular damage then it would still be a regular hit, just not a 1 hit kill.

You're dragging unnecessary mechanics into it. Cloud is immune to instant death in the sense of it being magical effect (e.g. a spell 'death'). Link simply just hacks people in half. It's not magical or supernatural. It's a standard blow that will cut you down unless you're wearing some decent armour to stop it. A ribbon will not do that.
It's like decapitation. That's a one-hit kill, so does the ribbon make Cloud immune to beheading? Could it save him from a guillotine? If not, then it's not going to be a lot of use here.

[Lostintransit]

You're dragging unnecessary mechanics into it. Cloud is immune to instant death in the sense of it being magical effect (e.g. a spell 'death'). Link simply just hacks people in half. It's not magical or supernatural. It's a standard blow that will cut you down unless you're wearing some decent armour to stop it. A ribbon will not do that.
It's like decapitation. That's a one-hit kill, so does the ribbon make Cloud immune to beheading? Could it save him from a guillotine? If not, then it's not going to be a lot of use here.

Well yes indeed! :smallsmile: Thats why I asked how the mortal blow functions.
If it kills enemies that normally take 2 or more hits to kill then the attack is considered an instant death effect, note that I'm not saying that their isn't the regular sword attack as well, I'm just pointing out that unless the blow also deals regular damage in sufficient amounts to kill someone then the insta-kill effect doesn't happen.

Because using your argument, all clouds attacks are identical to mortal slash, as should all links other attacks! Link is using a specific move to deal instant death, his 'regular' attacks still take a while to kill things!

Regards

[chiasaur11]

Well yes indeed! :smallsmile: Thats why I asked how the mortal blow functions.
If it kills enemies that normally take 2 or more hits to kill then the attack is considered an instant death effect, note that I'm not saying that their isn't the regular sword attack as well, I'm just pointing out that unless the blow also deals regular damage in sufficient amounts to kill someone then the insta-kill effect doesn't happen.

Because using your argument, all clouds attacks are identical to mortal slash, as should all links other attacks! Link is using a specific move to deal instant death, his 'regular' attacks still take a while to kill things!

Regards

So Cloud is immune to attacks that do any amount of damage if they would defeat anyone (even a goomba) in one hit? Man that's handy.

[Woot Spitum]

Welcome to the internet, where irresistable forces meet immovable objects on a regular basis. I'm not getting sucked into this again.

Link would win.

Darn it!

[Fan]

:smallsigh: ANOTHER link just wins arguement, I CALL MYSELF FF FANBOY, and I just dont say cloud wins, I put forth reasonable arguements in his cae, seriously if thats all your gonna post, is Cloud suckz, Link Winz, DONT post in this thread.

[Woot Spitum]

:smallsigh: ANOTHER link just wins arguement, I CALL MYSELF FF FANBOY, and I just dont say cloud wins, I put forth reasonable arguements in his cae, seriously if thats all your gonna post, is Cloud suckz, Link Winz, DONT post in this thread.Logic in a fanboy battle on the internet? Surely you jest.

Be honest, do you really think anyone will ever be able to say anything that will convince you that Cloud can be defeated by anyone? (outside of Pun-Pun, of course, but that goes without saying)

We are fanboys after all, and no matter how fast or strong you describe Cloud as being, it will never convince me that Cloud is quite fast enough or strong enough for Link to lose. At the same time, no matter how skilled or clever I describe Link to be, it will never convince you that Link is quite skilled enough or clever enough for Cloud to lose. We are at an impasse. Our respective biases overwhelm any chance either of us have at objectivity.

Cloud dodges bullets you might say. I would reply that obviously anyone unable to hit somone charging at them at short range must be a very poor marksman. Cloud isn't dodging so much as the shooter is missing. Link is too precise a marksman to miss Cloud on a regular basis, if at all. But of course, I'm biased.

Cloud has a ranged instakill move you might say. I would reply that Link's magic armor would protect him. I would also postulate that while Cloud performs said move, Link would shoot him to death with arrows, bomb or otherwise. But once again, I'm biased.

In the end, this exercise has little point, beyond giving us all a chance to affirm our unshakeable faith in the abilities of our favorite game characters. If you believe that logic will cause anyone to change their minds on this matter, I fear you are sadly mistaken. My rather succinct earlier post was merely to affirm my Link fanhood without wasting anyone's time by repeating the arguments of others.

Drat. I really have gotten sucked into this again. You would think that 50+ pages of Link versus Sephiroth would teach me the pointlessness of these little debates.

[chiasaur11]

Logic in a fanboy battle on the internet? Surely you jest.

Be honest, do you really think anyone will ever be able to say anything that will convince you that Cloud can be defeated by anyone? (outside of Pun-Pun, of course, but that goes without saying)

We are fanboys after all, and no matter how fast or strong you describe Cloud as being, it will never convince me that Cloud is quite fast enough or strong enough for Link to lose. At the same time, no matter how skilled or clever I describe Link to be, it will never convince you that Link is quite skilled enough or clever enough for Cloud to lose. We are at an impasse. Our respective biases overwhelm any chance either of us have at objectivity.

Cloud dodges bullets you might say. I would reply that obviously anyone unable to hit somone charging at them at short range must be a very poor marksman. Cloud isn't dodging so much as the shooter is missing. Link is too precise a marksman to miss Cloud on a regular basis, if at all. But of course, I'm biased.

Cloud has a ranged instakill move you might say. I would reply that Link's magic armor would protect him. I would also postulate that while Cloud performs said move, Link would shoot him to death with arrows, bomb or otherwise. But once again, I'm biased.

In the end, this exercise has little point, beyond giving us all a chance to affirm our unshakeable faith in the abilities of our favorite game characters. If you believe that logic will cause anyone to change their minds on this matter, I fear you are sadly mistaken. My rather succinct earlier post was merely to affirm my Link fanhood without wasting anyone's time by repeating the arguments of others.

Drat. I really have gotten sucked into this again. You would think that 50+ pages of Link versus Sephiroth would teach me the pointlessness of these little debates.

Well said. Oh, Squirrel girl also fits the Pun Pun combat niche, though.

[Callos_DeTerran]

:smallsigh: ANOTHER link just wins arguement, I CALL MYSELF FF FANBOY, and I just dont say cloud wins, I put forth reasonable arguements in his cae, seriously if thats all your gonna post, is Cloud suckz, Link Winz, DONT post in this thread.

Seriously man, you need to calm down. It's a versus thread, not everyone's going to come in and join the debate but just offer up their opinion on who would win. Nor can you regulate what people can and cannot post in here so just calm down.

In any case Lostintransit, the Mortal Draw isn't an insta-death effect. More like an over-whelming damage attack (I'd equate it to a limit break that doesn't need the perquisite getting beat on phase first). Even on enemies it won't kill in one hit, if it still works at all then it still does damage to them. I remember this because I was elated when fighting Armored foes in TP and managed to pull off a Mortal Draw since it made the fight far easier instead of simply ending it like normal. As for the rupee-eating armor...I'm not entirely sure. I haven't been able to play TP for close to a year now so this is only what I remember. From what I DO remember, every time Link is hit the armor negates the blow at the cost an amount of rupees equal to the blow (I do not know the precise numbers). On the last blow Link can take the armor will still negate it but it's invulnerability disappears and it just becomes very damn heavy armor (My personal theory is that it isn't POWERED by rupees but if rather Link pays the baby who sells him the armor for each blow to keep the invulnerability ON instead of just turning it off, but thats just a theory).

The only reason I even put forth that suggestion is because of the semi-realism stated to be in place that means getting cut from the top of his head down to his groin would in fact kill Cloud. Otherwise, like someone else mentioned, I'd consider Cloud of TP boss equivalent and never would have mentioned it and gone right on to a different tactic.

FF_Fanboy: I'm not arguing that Cloud can dual-wield smaller swords, I've seen him in AC too, my question is why would he? This comes back to my original question of, if Cloud saw Link put away his sword and shield what would he do? There'd be no plausible reason to pull out another sword for blocking/dual wielding purposes or for Cloud to keep his range when Link is offering up no reason to. It'd be a waste of energy. For that same reason why would Cloud keep use the Buster Sword's range? What's he worried Link will do? Punch him? When he clearly has a superior weapon on his back? The simple fact is that Cloud would have no reason NOT to charge in for a big over-head chop to bisect Link and that's the whole point of my scenario. All it takes at that point is some good timing, and then Link is using Mortal Draw as he's being hit. Granted, if he didn't have the right timing he'd probably miss because the Mortal Draw is a little slow but that's why he waited in the first place, so he could time it properly. In another circumstance Cloud would probably dodge and Link would be in some real bad straits.

Also, forgot who said it, but as for the Master Sword not harming good people/villagers I think that's just how somebody explained the fact Link couldn't hurt villagers or anything besides monsters in the game. Though the villagers in TP seemed remarkably adept at dodging themselves...>.> Not that I tried to murder them.

[Fan]

I'am clam Callos, but win someone merely walks in, and says Link winz, it does tend to be VERY annoying, when there are like 10 people doing that over the course of the thread.

As for the arguement itself, the mortal draw is not a longer range attack then Ultima weapon, which BTW, is WAY bigger than the buster sword, more or less like 9-10 feet (not sure on spefics, as far as length goes.) which is WAY bigger than the length of he master sword COMBINED with Links arm reach.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I'am clam Callos, but win someone merely walks in, and says Link winz, it does tend to be VERY annoying, when there are like 10 people doing that over the course of the thread.

As for the arguement itself, the mortal draw is not a longer range attack then Ultima weapon, which BTW, is WAY bigger than the buster sword, more or less like 9-10 feet (not sure on spefics, as far as length goes.) which is WAY bigger than the length of he master sword COMBINED with Links arm reach.

When did he get Ultima Weapon? o.o I thought that Cloud was using the buster sword. More importantly though there's still the fact of why WOULDN'T he close anyway? His sword might be less maneuverable but if he assumes Link is trying to cast a spell or use dark juju, from a previous example, then being close is better since he could get lucky and catch Link in the area of his 'spell' if it's one of those kinds of spells and could thus deter or make Link completely give up on the idea.

[Fan]

Okay, tehn if cloud gets his WEAKEST weapon how bout we give Link the kurkri sword, thats about the amount of neutringthat would amount to.But seriously your saying that cloud doesn't have his ultimate weapon, AND Link does?
But aside from that the Ac sword IS ultima weapon, just a new and cocken eyed version, that square came up with to make it look better.

[Mx.Silver]

I'am clam Callos, but win someone merely walks in, and says Link winz, it does tend to be VERY annoying, when there are like 10 people doing that over the course of the thread.
Just ignore it. If some people aren't going to enter into debate then there's no real point bothering with.



As for the arguement itself, the mortal draw is not a longer range attack then Ultima weapon, which BTW, is WAY bigger than the buster sword, more or less like 9-10 feet (not sure on spefics, as far as length goes.) which is WAY bigger than the length of he master sword COMBINED with Links arm reach.
Which would be great if that was what he was using. But it isn't. He used the Buster Sword in AC, ad he's fighting as he was from AC.

At the moment I'm still leaning towards Link. I wouldn't say it's guaranteed, Cloud's offense is pretty nasty, but I'd be willing to say he'd win at least 3/5ths of the time due to the arguments already given.

[Fan]

Read my last post.

[chiasaur11]

Read my last post.

Some of us did.
Understanding a point, and agreeing with it are different things.

As a wise man once said "Reasonable people may differ".

And as two more wise men said "Remember that it's just a show, we should really just relax."

So, yeah.

[Zaphrasz]

The Rupee Eating armor isn't actually that good. When wearing the armor, it drains rupees at about a two rupee a second rate. When hit with something, a chunk of rupees (I think around 30) are drained. Once he is out of rupees, the armor begins to hinder Link's movement, stops being shiny, and offers no additional protection. He stops being able to run, but he can attack and parry at the same speed, strangely. The point isn't that Link will be immune to every attack, but that he gets something of a buffer zone, allowing himself to take a few hits in order to set up his attacks.

Also, Mike Nelson is awesome.

[Lostintransit]

Seriously man, you need to calm down. It's a versus thread, not everyone's going to come in and join the debate but just offer up their opinion on who would win. Nor can you regulate what people can and cannot post in here so just calm down.

In any case Lostintransit, the Mortal Draw isn't an insta-death effect. More like an over-whelming damage attack (I'd equate it to a limit break that doesn't need the perquisite getting beat on phase first). Even on enemies it won't kill in one hit, if it still works at all then it still does damage to them. I remember this because I was elated when fighting Armored foes in TP and managed to pull off a Mortal Draw since it made the fight far easier instead of simply ending it like normal. As for the rupee-eating armor...I'm not entirely sure. I haven't been able to play TP for close to a year now so this is only what I remember. From what I DO remember, every time Link is hit the armor negates the blow at the cost an amount of rupees equal to the blow (I do not know the precise numbers). On the last blow Link can take the armor will still negate it but it's invulnerability disappears and it just becomes very damn heavy armor (My personal theory is that it isn't POWERED by rupees but if rather Link pays the baby who sells him the armor for each blow to keep the invulnerability ON instead of just turning it off, but thats just a theory).

The only reason I even put forth that suggestion is because of the semi-realism stated to be in place that means getting cut from the top of his head down to his groin would in fact kill Cloud. Otherwise, like someone else mentioned, I'd consider Cloud of TP boss equivalent and never would have mentioned it and gone right on to a different tactic.


Thank you for the sensible reply! Thats the kind of debate I like to see!
I will deal with the rupee armor first:

If the Rupees lost is based on the amount of damage, then cloud opens up with metor rain deal a whopping great 12,000 odd hearts worth of damage in a single attack or he just hits with his sword which does 9,999 hearts worth.... this cuts through all of links rupee armor and regular health (unless he has that many hearts!) whilst he strikes cloud, which means both die at more or less the same time.

Second, The mortal draw:

Well this is tricky, as Sephiroths attacks also cause 'over-whelming damage' which cloud survives against, so once more it becomes a more game play based maneuver .

To be honest i think the OP needs to be a tad more specific in what does or doesn't count as an in game effect, as from a speed, reflexes and movement perspective, cloud has the edge. However Links adaptability and defense grants him an edge in that regard.

Like I said originally as the OP laid out this fight, it's a draw as both sides ,taken realistically, kill on the first blow.

Regards

[Woot Spitum]

Okay, tehn if cloud gets his WEAKEST weapon how bout we give Link the kurkri sword, thats about the amount of neutringthat would amount to.I have played every Legend of Zelda game in existence outside of The Phantom Hourglass, and I do not once recall Link ever wielding a sword called kurkri or a kukri if that is what you meant. In terms of weakness, I believe the sword Link aquires from his uncle in Link to the Past is the weakest. But since we are talking about Link from Twilight Princess, it isn't relevant.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Okay, tehn if cloud gets his WEAKEST weapon how bout we give Link the kurkri sword, thats about the amount of neutringthat would amount to.But seriously your saying that cloud doesn't have his ultimate weapon, AND Link does?
But aside from that the Ac sword IS ultima weapon, just a new and cocken eyed version, that square came up with to make it look better.

Eh? This is TP Link, correct? There is no kukri sword. Theres...er...the regular and then the Master Sword, I don't even think there are as many versions as there were in OoT. More importantly I don't know what the hell is Cloud's ultimate weapon, as I've admitted to only seeing AC which doesn't exactly give names to the weapons if you hadn't noticed. And for the record I was basing my tactic ON that new ****-eyed version he has in AC, so I have no idea if there are even other kinds.

EDIT: Also, to my knowledge since I've always had the Master Sword by the time I got Mortal Draw, I don't know why it wouldn't work with an ordinary sword as well.

[Fan]

So Cloud just stands thre for a few hours talking about how, hes going to defeat him, and charging his attack anime style, and thus he wins?:smalltongue:

[Zaphrasz]

I believe he means Kokiri sword, from Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. His weakest weapon would be either one of the wooded swords or the broken giant's knife.

[Fan]

Well, that is about the amount of neutering that would be done, and even still Clouds Buster sword reach EASILY outdistances the mortal slash range, and if he does the typical finishing jump slash like he did with Kadja, their blades will merely clash, in a shwer of epic sparks.

[Zaphrasz]

Link would lose far more if we took them to their weakest levels. The Master Sword is the blade blessed by the gods, it is on par with weapons such as Excalibur, Frostmorne, and Soul Edge.

[shadowxknight]

Here's what most likely to happen.

Cloud and Link are about to fight, but they find out Sephiroth and Ganon are planning to destroy/take over the world.
Cloud and Link unite to defeat Sephiroth and Ganon.

Now this madness can end and we can all sleep tight tonight :smallbiggrin:

[Bago!!!]

Link's sword and shield style against Cloud's two-hander style just won't work. Doesn't matter the abilities they possess really (though they sure help). Cloud has the advantage here, with his superior reflexes, stamina, speed, and strength. Link has a defensive advantage with his own wit. Cloud wins. Now if link had a proper stabbing weapon then it would be link, but he doesn't have one.

[Fan]

Link would lose far more if we took them to their weakest levels. The Master Sword is the blade blessed by the gods, it is on par with weapons such as Excalibur, Frostmorne, and Soul Edge.

And Ultima weapon is a blade forged from the remains of a sentient planets greatest creations reamins, putting it EASLIY on par with said weapons.

[chiasaur11]

Here's what most likely to happen.

Cloud and Link are about to fight, but they find out Sephiroth and Ganon are planning to destroy/take over the world.
Cloud and Link unite to defeat Sephiroth and Ganon.

Now this madness can end and we can all sleep tight tonight :smallbiggrin:

Sure. Let's go with that.
Please?

[Zaphrasz]

Care to elaborate? If this were real life, no, blocking a two handed sword with a shield may not work out well for you. Also if this were real life, Cloud can't lift his weapon. This isn't real life, and Link has blocked giant swords in his games.

[Fan]

ultima weapon, was made from guess what ultima weapons corpse, and is about 3000 times BETTER than the buster sword, alothough there is a better weapon in this game called apocalypse, that you can only get be going through the area that is unlocked, by the destrcution of a area roughly the size of a small city caused by the creatures death.

[Bago!!!]

Block giant swords without fazing? Game mechanics.

But with a weapon like that, your reach would be enough to counter the long sword, espicially if its light in your hands (which it seems to be seeing how Cloud wields his sword). With the long sword, you would have to be mid range. With the greatsword, you have a little higher than mid range. But if have a pretty large great sword, you have about far range (that of spears and such). Though this is not real life, to say that the styles that they use and how they use them would be totally irrevelant would be incorrect.

[Zaphrasz]

Greatest Creation's enemies? The Master Sword was forged by the Sages of Hyrule, referred to in Ocarina of Time as the "Ancient Creators of Hyrule." We can keep arguing who has the shinier sword, but it doesn't change the situation you presented in the first post.

Who is to say blocking the sword was a game mechanic? He does it all the time, story wise he has had sword fights with Ganon, who uses a great sword.

[Fan]

IN game, and Ganons sword is no where NEAR as large, as ultima weapon.

[Zaphrasz]

Maybe, but it is being wielded by the pure manifestation of the power of the Gods. What more do you want?

If you are going to just throw away the abilities Link has that don't make sense, we might as well throw away Cloud's. The jumping? Visual effect, metaphoric. Slicing through things? Visual effect, metaphoric, not meant to show what he can literally do.

[Fan]

We're just decalring them ineffective becuase he cant hit, due to Clouds EXTREME reach adavantage, seriously you cant kill what you cant hit.

[Zaphrasz]

Link has shown the ability to nullify reach advantage, not to mention that, most of the time, Cloud doesn't take advantage of it.

[Fan]

He does ALOT, but most of the time he's either fighting people with guns, or with even LONGER swords, and in the case of Link he lacks that, and in the case of Kadja against Cloud, he does REPEEATEDLY take advantage of this, and if your saying Cloud isn't smart enough to do that your DEAD wrong.

[Agrippa]

Here's what most likely to happen.

Cloud and Link are about to fight, but they find out Sephiroth and Ganon are planning to destroy/take over the world.
Cloud and Link unite to defeat Sephiroth and Ganon.

Now this madness can end and we can all sleep tight tonight :smallbiggrin:

Yes, that sounds good. Up until the Joker buddies up with Sephiroth and Ganon, holds Edge city hostage, blows up Aerith's (Aeris's) church and kidnaps, tortures and brutally scars Yuffie and leaves her half-dead for Cloud, Tifa, Barret and the rest of AVALANCHE to find later. Then the three turn on Hyrule and have their little "fun".

[chiasaur11]

Yes, that sounds good. Up until the Joker buddies up with Sephiroth and Ganon, holds Edge city hostage, blows up Aerith's (Aeris's) church and kidnaps, tortures and brutally scars Yuffie and leaves her half-dead for Cloud, Tifa, Barret and the rest of AVALANCHE to find later. Then the three turn on Hyrule and have their little "fun".

But then the Great Gurren Dan brigade come. And Bill Brasky. And Nuetral good Pun Pun.

Ha! Choke on that, evil!

[Collyer-san]

OK. Point 1:

The weapon that Cloud uses in Advent Children is NOT the Ultima Weapon. It's looks nothing Like it, and is the Same size (When put together) as the Buster sword. We can assume it's lighter, however, due to the way it's made.

Point 2: Aside from the size advantage, Link's Master Sword isn't as strong as it could be, since Cloud is in no way 'Evil', therefore cutting most of the master swords power out.

Point 3: Instead of blocking Cloud head on with his shield, Link would probebly be smart enough to simply use it to deflect Clouds sword, possbly causing to dig in Slowing Cloud down margiannaly.

I still say it's a Draw.

[Bago!!!]

As big as the buster sword? No. They show the buster sword, its nowhere near that size.

I think its called the Union Sword or something... Whatever the case, it stood up against Sephiroths sword.

I've seen Ganondorf's sword once or twice. Its pretty large, but nowhere near as big as Cloud's, and Cloud uses it so much more than Ganondorf does. Besides, thats not even a great sword. Its about the size of a bastard sword at the most, a longsword with an extended grip atleast.

Is Ganondorf's sword the biggest in the game? Cause if so, then it wouldn't be gamplay mechanics, but Clouds would so break/numb Link's arm if he ever directly blocked that weapon.

[Callos_DeTerran]

As big as the buster sword? No. They show the buster sword, its nowhere near that size.

I think its called the Union Sword or something... Whatever the case, it stood up against Sephiroths sword.

I've seen Ganondorf's sword once or twice. Its pretty large, but nowhere near as big as Cloud's, and Cloud uses it so much more than Ganondorf does. Besides, thats not even a great sword. Its about the size of a bastard sword at the most, a longsword with an extended grip atleast.

Is Ganondorf's sword the biggest in the game? Cause if so, then it wouldn't be gamplay mechanics, but Clouds would so break/numb Link's arm if he ever directly blocked that weapon.

It's not the biggest sword in TP or at the very least it's not the biggest weapon that I've seen/had that Link block. Ganon makes up for it though with sheer strength and the Triforce of Power so the size of his sword doesn't make as much of a difference.

To Lost: I think you missed a line of my post. The last hit the Magic Armor can take doesn't switch to hearts right away, it still negates that last blow entirely (or at least it has in my experience, not sure about others). And I may be wrong about the amount of rupees lost being proportinate to the damage done, that was my guess since every time I used that armor I was only paying attention to my Rupee total to see how long I had until I had to put it away. That other guy said it was 30ish rupees per hit so I'm not sure anymore. What's a meteor rain?

[Mx.Silver]

Is Ganondorf's sword the biggest in the game? Cause if so, then it wouldn't be gamplay mechanics, but Clouds would so break/numb Link's arm if he ever directly blocked that weapon.

The sword may not be as big, but I'm pretty sure Ganondorf is quite a bit stronger than Cloud so the force of the blow would be at least as great.

[Bago!!!]

Alright, I guess that makes sense... But was it a direct blow or a glancing block?

And can you actuelly use the shield ingame? Could you block every move with it? Atleast, every physical move?

[averagejoe]

Interesting discussion, but I think you all are missing some very important points. Clearly this won't be settled by strength of arms alone-they are both too good, and chance plays too big a role in combat, for this to work. I think the real winner is the one who can pull of the preliminary beauty contest that the OP didn't specifically mention, but I think he was implying. Both characters have been called out for being rather feminine, so let's go down the list.

Link's advantages:

Blond hair
A feminine face
A tunic that looks kinda like a shirt/miniskirt combo, and in most games no pants
Tights
Earrings


Cloud's advantages:

Blond hair
Generally feminine features (at least in AC)
The materials and know how to make himself more attractive than either of his canonically hot female companions


I have to give the advantage to Cloud on this one. In the end Link's clothes show off his generally muscular physique, and plus Cloud has access to deodorant and such. Link, being from where he's from, probably smells, what with the lack of bathing facilities and spending all his time running around.

[Steven the Lich]

Okay, tehn if cloud gets his WEAKEST weapon how bout we give Link the kurkri sword, thats about the amount of neutringthat would amount to.But seriously your saying that cloud doesn't have his ultimate weapon, AND Link does? Link's weapon should be a normal sword against Cloud, as it goes magical against villains. It can't harm the townsfolk. Think about it... Has Link ever killed something other than a villain? It is not entirely preposterous for a sword to slay evil to not be capable of harming good (Samurai Jack's sword for instance). Besides, if I was making a sword to combat evil, I'd make sure it wasn't used for evil purposes.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Interesting discussion, but I think you all are missing some very important points. Clearly this won't be settled by strength of arms alone-they are both too good, and chance plays too big a role in combat, for this to work. I think the real winner is the one who can pull of the preliminary beauty contest that the OP didn't specifically mention, but I think he was implying. Both characters have been called out for being rather feminine, so let's go down the list.

Link's advantages:

Blond hair
A feminine face
A tunic that looks kinda like a shirt/miniskirt combo, and in most games no pants
Tights
Earrings


Cloud's advantages:

Blond hair
Generally feminine features (at least in AC)
The materials and know how to make himself more attractive than either of his canonically hot female companions


I have to give the advantage to Cloud on this one. In the end Link's clothes show off his generally muscular physique, and plus Cloud has access to deodorant and such. Link, being from where he's from, probably smells, what with the lack of bathing facilities and spending all his time running around.

Now see, I'd concede this point but the simple fact is there has to be SOMETHING about Link because so many damn women fall for him it begins to get ridiculous. I mean Zelda I can understand but the fish princess?

[Fan]

Storyline REQUIRES that she be attracted to him for only the HUSBAND of the Fish princess can have the bloddy saphhire. :p
The sotryline does NOT require Cloud to be so attractive, that Don cornero chooses him of Aeris, AND Tifa.

[Tengu_temp]

lack of bathing facilities

The water temple!

[Fan]

But thats they equivalent to bathing in a monster filled lake, its just ewwww.
:smalltongue:, alotugh that is rather funny. (is feeling better now thats he's slept in the past 4 days.)

[Callos_DeTerran]

Storyline REQUIRES that she be attracted to him for only the HUSBAND of the Fish princess can have the bloddy saphhire. :p
The sotryline does NOT require Cloud to be so attractive, that Don cornero chooses him of Aeris, AND Tifa.

Correction here, she said she'd only give it to her husband as a betrothal gift (or a similar arrangement.) so there's the story requiring it...it doesn't explain the vaguely disturbing flirting the fish princess does with him practically every time they meet. :smalltongue:

[Fan]

but in my experiance, I consider Tifa, and Areis MUCH hotter, than a creepy fish chick.

[Callos_DeTerran]

That's just one of'em though. o.o Link amasses small harems during the course of his adventures.




...Are we really debating which one has the better girls now? Cause I'm sure I could work a Mortal Draw argument into it somehow. :smalltongue:

[Tengu_temp]

but in my experiance, I consider Tifa, and Areis MUCH hotter, than a creepy fish chick.

I hope you mean Aeris, and not this guy:
http://www.newauburn.k12.wi.us/english/students09/evan/Ares_p107.jpg


Also, Yuffie's cuter.

[Fan]

Yes I mean Areis, and not mister broken link guy

[Tengu_temp]

Works for me... let's swap to an image DND players are more familiar with.

[Fan]

Ah, I see. LAWL, that would be funny if I did though.:smalltongue:

[averagejoe]

Now see, I'd concede this point but the simple fact is there has to be SOMETHING about Link because so many damn women fall for him it begins to get ridiculous. I mean Zelda I can understand but the fish princess?

Ah, sorry if I was unclear, I meant a beauty contest in the drag queen sense.

[Agrippa]

But then the Great Gurren Dan brigade come. And Bill Brasky. And Nuetral good Pun Pun.

Ha! Choke on that, evil!

If only that would happen. Sadly the Gurren Dan brigade is in pitched with both the armies of the Nine Hells and the Daemons and Chaos Space Marines of Slaanesh, Tzeench, Khorne and Nurgle. They'll win obviously, in part because Asmodeus and Tzeench are only attacking to distract the Guren Dan brigade and not out right destroy them.

Nuetral Good Pun Pun was tortured, mindraped and transformed into a lemure by Asmodeus himself. Also, Fabius Bile (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Fabius_Bile) and Bangaldesh DuPree (http://girlgenius.wikia.com/wiki/Bangladesh_DuPree) are also joing in on the fun with Sephiroth and Ganon. Maybe we should hold a PbP game with this scenero. Cloud and Link get Klaus (http://girlgenius.wikia.com/wiki/Baron_Klaus_Wulfenbach), Agatha (http://girlgenius.wikia.com/wiki/Agatha_Heterodyne), Gil (http://girlgenius.wikia.com/wiki/Gilgamesh_Wulfenbach), Zeetha (http://girlgenius.wikia.com/wiki/Gilgamesh_Wulfenbach), Krosp I (http://girlgenius.wikia.com/wiki/Krosp_I) and Inquistor Czevak (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Czevak) as allies.