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tenshiakodo
2008-08-13, 04:47 AM
I was reading a few threads (about MONKS, of all things), and I noticed some heated back-and-forths about whether or not a PC could acquire a partially-charged wand.

The rules seem pretty straightforward that a newly created wand has 50 charges. Further reading indicates that few found Wands are fully charged, and that price guidelines exist for making items with differing amounts of charges (and that you can even recharge a wand using the same rules as creating one).

So the problem seems to be that you shouldn't be able to comission a partially-charged wand.

While I was thinking on this, I went to my friend's house to play in his DnD campaign. Ever since he bought the Magic Item Compendium, all sorts of strange new items have hit the game, and he's been using it's new random treasure rules.

Which of course means, after a few encounters, we found ourselves possessed of four wands. Each with ten charges.

This struck me as a bit odd. Now random treasure tables are, of course, a guideline, and just as you should rarely find a 50-charge wand, it's obvious one shouldn't find a lot of 10 charge wands.

You should find a 7 charge wand one day, a 12 charge wand the next, a pair of 5-charge wands a few days later, and maybe, once in a blue moon, as a joke, a wand with a single charge.

But it was the fate of these ten charge wands that made me really question their availability.

You see, the party decided to sell them.

Which, being only 1/5th the price of a normal wand, meant we could actually offload them, as they were affordable by NPC's, something most magic items fail at.

So ok. I can make a wand with 50 charges. I can sell a used wand. And a wand can be recharged (presumably to any value you desire).

Although it's not RAW, I can't really see why Wand makers wouldn't recharge old wands as opposed to the nuisance of making new ones. Most used wands are of popular and easy to sell spells, right? So only for odd spells or unusual caster level requests would a new wand really be needed.

I imagined the wand market consisting of mostly older wands that have been passed around, recharged, lost, found, bought, and sold, many times.

If this is the case, surely a wand of just about any charge value required would exist, right?

Another strange event occured when our Wizard decided to scribe some scrolls. He pointed out he could make 1000 gp of scrolls per diem, and attempted to do so.

The DM was hesitant, since he was pretty sure you can only make one item per day, regardless.

Then our Cleric produce a scroll we had gained in a treasure that had 2 copies of Bless and one copy of Cure Moderate Wounds on the same scroll.

The rules on magic items seem a bit inconsistent by RAW. While it never comes out and states you cannot make a partially-charged wand, I fail to see the reason why you couldn't. If, in making the wand, you must expend one copy of the spells material component per charge, why do you need exactly 50?

In a similar vein, the rules for scrolls don't mention how many spells could be piled onto the same scroll, and until you were presented with a multi-spell scroll, you could, like my DM, believe it couldn't be done.

Just like a ten-charge wand.

Sorry for the wall of text, and I do appreciate anyone weighing in on this. So far, the best counter-argument for variable charge wand availability has to do with comparitive pricing between various types of spell-containing items, and the damage that could do to WBL. Which is a good point, but many WotC published Wondrous Items do at least as much damage already, requiring few restrictions on their use.

Kurald Galain
2008-08-13, 04:58 AM
If this is the case, surely a wand of just about any charge value required would exist, right?

Exist in the multiverse, yes.

Available at the exact moment you need it, for the exact spell and exact quantity you want, no.

And remember that, if the wand was useful for the party, they wouldn't have sold it. So anything you really want to buy is unlikely to be for sale.

Dragonmuncher
2008-08-13, 05:09 AM
Although it's not RAW, I can't really see why Wand makers wouldn't recharge old wands as opposed to the nuisance of making new ones. Most used wands are of popular and easy to sell spells, right? So only for odd spells or unusual caster level requests would a new wand really be needed.

I imagined the wand market consisting of mostly older wands that have been passed around, recharged, lost, found, bought, and sold, many times.

If this is the case, surely a wand of just about any charge value required would exist, right?


I could be wrong, but doesn't each charge cost the same amount? What I mean is, 5 wands of 10 charges each and 1 wand of 50 charges costs the same amount of money and exp to make.

If that's true, and I think it is, than a wizard wouldn't have to wait to "recycle" a wand, for he wouldn't really gain a benefit in doing so.



Another strange event occured when our Wizard decided to scribe some scrolls. He pointed out he could make 1000 gp of scrolls per diem, and attempted to do so.

The DM was hesitant, since he was pretty sure you can only make one item per day, regardless.

Then our Cleric produce a scroll we had gained in a treasure that had 2 copies of Bless and one copy of Cure Moderate Wounds on the same scroll.


This is not inconsistent, although it looks like it is. A "scroll" is just a one-time use of a spell (I'm simplifying, here). Your cleric's item was a piece of paper with three "scrolls" on it.

To put it another way, a scroll is just the markings on the paper. If you have a big enough piece of paper, you can have more than one spell. It still takes the same amount of time to make, though.

Don't remember the rules for crafting, but I feel like your DM was right, you can only make one thing a day. I could be wrong though.


The rules on magic items seem a bit inconsistent by RAW. While it never comes out and states you cannot make a partially-charged wand, I fail to see the reason why you couldn't. If, in making the wand, you must expend one copy of the spells material component per charge, why do you need exactly 50?

Doesn't seem like that big a deal to me, either.



In a similar vein, the rules for scrolls don't mention how many spells could be piled onto the same scroll, and until you were presented with a multi-spell scroll, you could, like my DM, believe it couldn't be done.

This, though, isn't that odd- I'm pretty sure I've seen scrolls with more than one piece of paper in official books and the like. Not as items unto themselves, but something like "Random treasure: a scroll with 1-3 spells on it" or something of that nature.

only1doug
2008-08-13, 05:16 AM
Magic items and charges (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#chargesDosesAndMultipleUses)(f rom the SRD)

Prices listed are always for fully charged items. (When an item is created, it is fully charged.)

creating wands (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingWands)

Wands are always fully charged (50 charges) when created.

creating scrolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingScrolls)

All writing implements and materials used to scribe a scroll must be fresh and unused (implies a different piece of paper for each scroll)

Jack_Simth
2008-08-13, 06:23 AM
Another strange event occured when our Wizard decided to scribe some scrolls. He pointed out he could make 1000 gp of scrolls per diem, and attempted to do so.

The DM was hesitant, since he was pretty sure you can only make one item per day, regardless.

Then our Cleric produce a scroll we had gained in a treasure that had 2 copies of Bless and one copy of Cure Moderate Wounds on the same scroll.

You can only make one item per day, regardless. However, the random generation tables can put up to six spells on the same scroll - but it's still one scroll. So while the Wizard and Cleric could collaborate to make a scroll of six Cure Moderate Wounds (150 gp per spell, for a total of 900 gp market), you can't make six separate scrolls of Cure Moderate Wounds in the same day, nor can you make 40 scrolls of Cure Light Wounds in a day.


The rules on magic items seem a bit inconsistent by RAW. While it never comes out and states you cannot make a partially-charged wand, I fail to see the reason why you couldn't. If, in making the wand, you must expend one copy of the spells material component per charge, why do you need exactly 50?
Why does it take exactly one day per 1,000 gp in market value, minimum of one day? Them's the rules.

DigoDragon
2008-08-13, 06:34 AM
I don't see a problem with building a wand with fewer charges just to keep costs down. I can see a 10 charge wand of "Water Breathing" as 50 charges might be overkill if you rarely face an underwater challenge. :smallsmile:

Also, as a Dungeon Master I give material cost discounts if players reuse old, chargeless wands to create new wands.

only1doug
2008-08-13, 06:47 AM
A Gm can houserule whatever he chooses, RAW states wands are created with 50 charges

Jack_Simth
2008-08-13, 03:42 PM
Oh - the other reason you don't really want to let characters create wands with specified numbers of charges:

A scroll (one usage, requires you have a caster level to match the scroll for flawless usage, requires you match arcane/divine caster status, can't be used in a grapple, usage provokes AoO's, must be able to make the somatic and verbal components of the spell) has a market value of 25 gp * spell level * caster level + component costs.

A one-charge wand (one usage, does not require you have a caster level, doesn't care about the arcane/divine divide, can be used in a grapple, usage provokes no AoO, need only use a verbal component) has a market value of (750/50) gp * spell level * caster level + component costs. 750/50 = 15. Wands are 10 gp cheaper per use. If you can make or buy a one charge wand, the only reason to ever make or buy a scroll of a spell (4th level and below) is so that you can scribe it into your spellbook (or, in the case of making a scroll, you don't have the feat Craft Wand).

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-08-13, 04:02 PM
The rules seem pretty straightforward that a newly created wand has 50 charges. Further reading indicates that few found Wands are fully charged, and that price guidelines exist for making items with differing amounts of charges (and that you can even recharge a wand using the same rules as creating one). ...

And a wand can be recharged (presumably to any value you desire). ...

Now, it has already been established that wands are created with 50 charges only, so I will not deal anymore with that.

However, and I did not see this addressed, recharging of partially charged items is not possible!
(Unless otherwise noted of course.)

If recharging was a possibility (at linear costs) partially charged wands should be much more common.

Chronos
2008-08-13, 07:08 PM
If you can make or buy a one charge wand, the only reason to ever make or buy a scroll of a spell (4th level and below) is so that you can scribe it into your spellbook (or, in the case of making a scroll, you don't have the feat Craft Wand).Even for spellbook purposes, you still wouldn't want to bother with scrolls. People often forget that not only can you transcribe a spell from a scroll, you can also transcribe it directly from another spellbook, with the same difficulty. And a spellbook page (or several spellbook pages, for a higher-level spell) is much cheaper than the equivalent scroll, and can be re-used.

That is to say, if you have a spell emporium in your world, it wouldn't work by a wizard walking in and buying a scroll to transfer into his book (though scrolls might also be available, at a higher price). It'd work by a wizard walking in and buying a one-page "spellbook", which has no magic in itself, but still contains the instructions for the spell. Or, if the store has the security and the customer has the time, they'd just have some books which stay chained to the counter, and the wizard pays money for the opportunity to transcribe a spell out of one of them, right in the shop.

Jack_Simth
2008-08-13, 07:20 PM
Even for spellbook purposes, you still wouldn't want to bother with scrolls. People often forget that not only can you transcribe a spell from a scroll, you can also transcribe it directly from another spellbook, with the same difficulty. And a spellbook page (or several spellbook pages, for a higher-level spell) is much cheaper than the equivalent scroll, and can be re-used.

That is to say, if you have a spell emporium in your world, it wouldn't work by a wizard walking in and buying a scroll to transfer into his book (though scrolls might also be available, at a higher price). It'd work by a wizard walking in and buying a one-page "spellbook", which has no magic in itself, but still contains the instructions for the spell. Or, if the store has the security and the customer has the time, they'd just have some books which stay chained to the counter, and the wizard pays money for the opportunity to transcribe a spell out of one of them, right in the shop.
Assuming, for the moment, that you're copying into a Blessed Book...

A mundane spellbook has a market value of 100 gp/page. A scroll of a 1st level spell has a market price of 25 gp. A 2nd level spell from a spellbook costs 200 gp if you buy the spell in mundane book form, and 150 gp if you buy it as a scroll. Buying a mundane spellbook is only better starting at 3rd level spells - assuming your DM gives you that option (many won't in the normal course of events).

The listed "usual fee" for copying (50 gp/spell level) is better than scrolls starting at 2nd level spells (100 gp "usual fee" vs. 150 gp market for a scroll for a 2nd level spell - 25 gp for the scroll, 50 gp for the "usual fee" for a 1st level spell) - assuming, that is, your DM gives you that option (many won't in the normal course of events).

Mind you, if you have access to another Wizard's spellbook, you don't do a straightforward copy - you prepare every spell you're interested in (which takes only an hour at most - it'll often be 15 minutes) and then spend the next several days scribing the prepared spells into your spellbook on your own time, unless that option isn't available to you for whatever reason.

monty
2008-08-13, 07:20 PM
So ok. I can make a wand with 50 charges. I can sell a used wand. And a wand can be recharged (presumably to any value you desire).

Wands can be recharged?


Most used wands are of popular and easy to sell spells, right? So only for odd spells or unusual caster level requests would a new wand really be needed.

I'd think most used wands would be of situational spells that are useful but not flexible enough to require using all 50 charges.


The rules on magic items seem a bit inconsistent by RAW. While it never comes out and states you cannot make a partially-charged wand, I fail to see the reason why you couldn't. If, in making the wand, you must expend one copy of the spells material component per charge, why do you need exactly 50?

Because the rules say so. I think that casters should be able to craft for more than 8 hours a day, especially if they don't need to sleep. But they can't. Because the rules say so. No matter how much something makes sense to you, if it's not within the rules, it's not RAW.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-13, 07:26 PM
I don't see a problem with building a wand with fewer charges just to keep costs down. I can see a 10 charge wand of "Water Breathing" as 50 charges might be overkill if you rarely face an underwater challenge. :smallsmile:

Also, as a Dungeon Master I give material cost discounts if players reuse old, chargeless wands to create new wands.

I don't have a problem with prorating magic items based on FRCS Gate/Portal Mechanics down to 1/Ride (10 day usage) and the Magic Item Compendium.

For first level spells usable 1/day consider going with Talismans and Faith Tokens

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051111a&page=5

Occasional Sage
2008-08-13, 07:34 PM
I was reading a few threads (about MONKS, of all things), and I noticed some heated back-and-forths about whether or not a PC could acquire a partially-charged wand.

*snip*

Just like a ten-charge wand.

Sorry for the wall of text, and I do appreciate anyone weighing in on this. So far, the best counter-argument for variable charge wand availability has to do with comparitive pricing between various types of spell-containing items, and the damage that could do to WBL. Which is a good point, but many WotC published Wondrous Items do at least as much damage already, requiring few restrictions on their use.

Are you looking for people to review your house rule and suggest ways to balance it, or are you advocating that other people adopt your house rule because it makes sense?

Cuz it sounds like you're doing the later.

FMArthur
2008-08-13, 09:21 PM
You run into problems with people being able to get powerful spells too cheaply and too early. Which is one of the things that Giacomo's Mediocre Monk Manual assumes to be legal and demonstrates why it shouldn't be. Now, his "Joker Monk" doesn't really seem to be much better off than a normal monk, but if you were to put that rules alteration in the hands of say, a Rogue, who can UMD with greater ease and competence, then it would get out of hand really fast.

tenshiakodo
2008-08-14, 02:24 AM
First, thank you for the replies.

Second, I'd like to apologize for not doing my homework. While I was certain a Wand could be recharged by RAW, it turns out they cannot. I'd thought I'd read about it in a WotC book somewhere, but I can't seem to locate the reference (which, thanks to Occam's Razor, means it probably doesn't exist and I misread something).

I wasn't really asking for any justification for a house rule, I was just honestly confused as to why variable charge wands was an issue, and why people thought they shouldn't be available for sale.

(As an aside, this article seems to indicate that there isn't really much issue with recharging Wands, but that's just one person's opinion, so take it with the proverbial grain of salt.)

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041130a

Anyways, I got the answers I needed, so thanks again, all.

only1doug
2008-08-14, 03:49 AM
in my current game someone just created a Wand Wizard, as we were discussing all the options the GM ruled that wands are re-chargable by someone with the craft wand feat - very handy for this player, no problem for the rest of us.

House-rule it in if you are GMing and you like it, if you are a Player discuss it with your GM and see if he'll allow it.

(RAW it's not allowed - play the game your own way)

DigoDragon
2008-08-14, 08:34 AM
For first level spells usable 1/day consider going with Talismans and Faith Tokens

That can work too, yeah. So there's multiple choices here for the OP. :smallsmile: Also, I do love Magic Item Compendium for it's availability of cheap low level magic to award starting level characters. That's a nice touch.

Sebastian
2008-08-14, 08:44 AM
So the problem seems to be that you shouldn't be able to comission a partially-charged wand.


of course you can, the number of charges at creation is the maximum number of charges that wand can ever have. But there is no reason this number must always be 50. I can perfecty see a wizard create a fully loaded wand with 20 charges, maybe he don't have enough money, maybe he don't want to waste xp for 30 charge that he won't have chance to use, maybe he don't have the time to make a 50 charge wand, there can be a lot of reasons for it.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-08-14, 08:51 AM
of course you can, the number of charges at creation is the maximum number of charges that wand can ever have. But there is no reason this number must always be 50. I can perfecty see a wizard create a fully loaded wand with 20 charges, maybe he don't have enough money, maybe he don't want to waste xp for 30 charge that he won't have chance to use, maybe he don't have the time to make a 50 charge wand, there can be a lot of reasons for it.

I am not entirely clear if you are aware what is RAW and what is a house rule, but just to be absolutely certain...

What you suggest is a house rule.

By the rules you can only create a fully charged wand.

Sorry if I got the wrong impression from your post.

only1doug
2008-08-14, 08:52 AM
But there is no reason this number must always be 50.


Except that the RAW says: Wands are always fully charged (50 charges) when created.
(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingWands)




I can perfecty see a wizard create a fully loaded wand with 20 charges, maybe he don't have enough money, maybe he don't want to waste xp for 30 charge that he won't have chance to use, maybe he don't have the time to make a 50 charge wand, there can be a lot of reasons for it.

Maybe he doesn't want to follow the RAW, thats OK, the GM can houserule around it if he agrees.

(dang, ninja'd)