questions about swords

[thubby]

I'm writing a book and i seem to have hit a snag. my main character uses a sword, a subject i know little about.
what would a modern, combat ready sword be made of?
how do you take care of them (cleaning, sharpening, etc.)? i know you can't just leave them laying around.
if it helps, it's a jian.
links to general information on them would be appreciated too.

[Agamid]

check out this site --> http://www.masterforge.co.uk/Jian%20Sword%20Collection.htm especially the construction part -->
http://www.masterforge.co.uk/Blade%20construction%20Options.htm

I don't know much about eastern weaponry, but the swords we use in my medieval re-enactment group (no, i'm not in SCA) are made from spring steel and need to be polished with oil and a rag after every use - with fine grade sandpaper if they have rust on them.
They need to be kept in a relatively humidity free environment - to reduce rust - and we try and avoid touching the actual blades with our sweaty, greasy hands.

We keep our weapons blunt, but i found this site that might help to answer the question of keeping the blade sharp --> http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/sharpen-swords.html

[Spiryt]

Also, check real weapons thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80863&page=13) in Gaming.

Anyway, as Agamid said, modern swords are made of high carbon steel, mostly beacuse noone uses swords in battles, so today functional swords are mostly replicas, made to resemble historical ones.

Also, better material for swords isn't probably known, at least now. SF stories likes titanium swords and stuff like that, but since the end of bronze age, sword is steel.

[Player_Zero]

I think your real problem is assuming the reader will know anything about swords. Write what is entertaining, not factual.

...Unless you're writing non-fiction.

[Cristo Meyers]

I think your real problem is assuming the reader will know anything about swords. Write what is entertaining, not factual.

...Unless you're writing non-fiction.

This is what I was going to say. Write just enough to seem accurate, and hand-wave the rest.

[BizzaroStormy]

The material really depends exactly how modern you want it. It could be anything from high-carbon steel and low carbon steel, to (just thinking randomly here) Tungsten Carbide w/ a low-carbon steel core.

The weapon we're talking about here would also have 2 different consturction methods based on what quality your character has it.

Theres the 3 layer method which is the soft metal sandwiched between 2 layers of the hard metal. This would obviously be the cheap choice.

However your character might be wealthy and it would be created using the 5 layer method where from top to bottom the layrs would be Hard, Soft, Hard, Soft, Hard. This would be the more expensive choice but would yield a high-quality blade.

[thubby]

I think your real problem is assuming the reader will know anything about swords. Write what is entertaining, not factual.

...Unless you're writing non-fiction.

I'd rather have knowledge I don't use than use crap information.
besides, someone, somewhere, will nitpick it.

[Jack Squat]

Good swords and knives can be made out of the leaf springs in cars...or Re-Bar if you're Rambo.

[Crow]

Sword blades from car and truck springs still "remember" their old shape. This causes microfractures in the steel and can actually cause the blade to eventually return to it's old shape (bent).

Most good swords nowadays are made from barstock, with 1084 and L6 being some of the best steels. Stainless steel is crap, as the chromium used to attain the "stainless" quality makes the steel far too brittle. Also, "carbon steel" is a buzzword used to sell swords. All steel is carbon steel. High carbon steel is fine, and makes the steel hard, but too much carbon and you have a brittle sword again. Too little, and the steel is too soft.

So yeah, 10xx, and L6...good steels. So far, nobody has found a better material to make swords with. Titanium and aluminum alloys are strong for their weight, but to equal the strength of steel would need to be ridiculously thick. Tungsten materials are too brittle again. Even partial construction with tungsten would seriously compromise the strength and structure of the sword. Depleted uranium (Crazy I know, but sometimes people bring it up) is way too heavy and will also be brittle when formed into a blade.

[Cobra_Ikari]

Hmm. No depleted uranium-steel alloys? Curses. :smallamused:

[thubby]

Hmm. No depleted uranium-steel alloys? Curses. :smallamused:

well there is the issue of it still being somewhat radioactive. (in tanks its between thick layers of other metals)

[SDF]

well there is the issue of it still being somewhat radioactive. (in tanks its between thick layers of other metals)

That, and it still gives our soldiers cancer.

HERE (http://www.albion-swords.com/sword-articles.htm) is an article about how some battle ready swords are made.

For an easter bent HERE (http://www.bugei.com/forging.html) is one on modern katanas.

[Last_resort_33]

To be fair, Make it up. Tungsten is very cool, in that it is commonly perceived to be ridiculously hard, and would likely keep a good edge... just pick something and run with it, because you're not really going to find a proper answer other than high carbon steel.

[Spiryt]

To be fair, Make it up. Tungsten is very cool, in that it is commonly perceived to be ridiculously hard, and would likely keep a good edge... just pick something and run with it, because you're not really going to find a proper answer other than high carbon steel.

But why is, exactly, Tungsten cooler than high carbon steel :smallconfused: ?

[Lord Herman]

Hmm. No depleted uranium-steel alloys? Curses. :smallamused:

Oh boy, the uranium katana. Wasn't there a guy on the WotC board who thought he could use it do kill his enemies with radiation poisoning?

[Jack Squat]

Sword blades from car and truck springs still "remember" their old shape. This causes microfractures in the steel and can actually cause the blade to eventually return to it's old shape (bent).

True, regardless, it does hold a good edge, and is used widely in third-world countries. I mentioned it more because novels are never completely factually accurate. Some come closer than others, but the story always comes first. IMO, it sounds cooler if a character makes a sword out of a leaf spring than if he uses barstock.

If you just want it to sound cool, tungsten carbide or titanum carbide would make a good tip...gets sharper and keeps an edge better than steel. It's of course more brittle than steel, but it's what's used in a lot of machining/wood-working blades. The tip of a blade can be brittle, the spine cannot be.

[Spiryt]

True, regardless, it does hold a good edge, and is used widely in third-world countries. I mentioned it more because novels are never completely factually accurate. Some come closer than others, but the story always comes first. IMO, it sounds cooler if a character makes a sword out of a leaf spring than if he uses barstock.


Those are widely used in Poland by reeneactors for cheap blunt swords to beat other people. By they are indeed considered as rather poor.

[zeratul]

The thing is it depends what they want to do. For some tasks a claymore would be great, for some a katana, for some a shortsword, for some a longsword, etc. What type of character is it? What is their fighting style? Are they more deffensive or more offensive? Are they into brute strength or tactics? All of these things must be taken into account.

Material wise, I'd say probably high carbon steel probably. But then I don't think the sword would be as flexible. Maby do it the way they make katanas? It's a type of steel I'm not sure what it would be called though

[Crow]

The tip of a blade can be brittle, the spine cannot be.

Actually, it's better that none of the sword be brittle. Just in case you sometime need the part that is. The tradeoff isn't worth it.

[Jack Squat]

Are not traditional katanas cooled in a fashion that make the tip brittle and the spine flexible?

I'm not trying to say the katana is the ultimate sword, because there is no one sword that is ultimate (except Highlander's) but it is a very respectable design.

[Spiryt]

The thing is it depends what they want to do. For some tasks a claymore would be great, for some a katana, for some a shortsword, for some a longsword, etc. What type of character is it? What is their fighting style? Are they more deffensive or more offensive? Are they into brute strength or tactics? All of these things must be taken into account.


Pssst. It's jian according to OP.

[zeratul]

Are not traditional katanas cooled in a fashion that make the tip brittle and the spine flexible?

I'm not trying to say the katana is the ultimate sword, because there is no one sword that is ultimate (except Highlander's) but it is a very respectable design.

On the entire thing it has a flexible core and a hardened razor sharp edge. This is due however to their forging style as much as their cooling though (go watch "secrets of the samurai sword to learn more).

[Jack Squat]

On the entire thing it has a flexible core and a hardened razor sharp edge. This is due however to their forging style as much as their cooling though (go watch "secrets of the samurai sword to learn more).

didn't watch it, however, found the site.


After the smith hammers all slag from the tamahagane, he heats the hard, high-carbon steel and shapes it into a long, U-shaped channel. He then hammers the tough, low-carbon steel, which he has shaped so it will make a snug fit into the channel and forges the two metals together. Both types of tamahagane are now exactly where they need to be: the hard steel forms the sword's outer shell and deadly blade, while the tough steel serves as the katana's core. This perfect balance of properties is what made the katana the samurai's most durable and prized weapon.

This backs up what I was saying...that the tip of the blade can be a harder, more brittle metal, while the spine is a lower grade metal that provides flexibilty. I just was using power tools as a reference point instead of swords.

[Spiryt]

On the entire thing it has a flexible core and a hardened razor sharp edge. This is due however to their forging style as much as their cooling though (go watch "secrets of the samurai sword to learn more).

As far as I know - fromone forum and few sites, katanas wasn't really made that way - soft core and hard edge - like damascus steel or Celtic sword, or generally any damast, pattern weld or so sword.
Katanas where forged from a lot of steel layers (sometimes thousands of them) but those were many layers of the same steel. Not soft core and hard edge - like for example jian was done.

EDIT: Actually wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katana_construction) states that softer cores were used as well, but wariba-gitae (from layers of homogenous steel) was most classic and widely used katana.

[Jack Squat]

you were right, it's damascus steel...although we tend to call Celtic swords claymores (with the actual gaelic spelling being claidhmore or Claidheamh mòr depending on who you ask.).


I've heard the same that you did about it being one piece of steel folded many times, and in a way, the way it's done in that PBS special is still one piece of steel. Both the "high grade" and "low grade" steel are from the same source, just the hard end is folded a lot and the other isn't. I used quotations, because IIRC, the reason the steel had to be folded so many times is that the Japanese generally used fairly poor steel to begin with.

[Spiryt]

you were right, it's damascus steel...although we tend to call Celtic swords claymores (with the actual gaelic spelling being claidhmore or Claidheamh mòr depending on who you ask.).
Well, word is gaellic but I'm definetly not talking about medieval claymores, which were just big, homogenous type XIII blades as far as I know, made without any damast or similar techniques. I meant celtic ancient swords like that (http://www.myarmoury.com/nateb_swor_tmpl_celt.html?10)

And the thing is that generally damascus steel isn't really the same thing as damast. Celtic swords, viking swords, and others all used the same trick about soft layers/hard layers in maany configurations, but technologies were different. Won't tell you much more, beacuse I don't understand it too well.



I've heard the same that you did about it being one piece of steel folded many times, and in a way, the way it's done in that PBS special is still one piece of steel. Both the "high grade" and "low grade" steel are from the same source, just the hard end is folded a lot and the other isn't. I used quotations, because IIRC, the reason the steel had to be folded so many times is that the Japanese generally used fairly poor steel to begin with.

Yes, the whole fuss and complicated process came from the sand ores of Japan. From the point of modern technology they are considered very good, but medieval people just couldn't cleanse them properly.

EDIT: I really hope that all what I write here is understandable - it's pretty specific stuff, and my English fails me a bit.:smallyuk:

[Crow]

Yes, it was fairly recently that iron sand became a good source of iron. In japan, as in most places that used it, folding was a good way to sure the steel was even in composition throughout the entire blade. Nowadays it is done for more asthetic purposes, as with the quality of steel nowadays it really isn't neccessary.

As for the tip thing, you may be overestimating the ability of tungsten and titanium to withstand stress that swords are expected to withstand. Yes the tips of swords could be harder, but they were still steel.

[zeratul]

you were right, it's damascus steel...although we tend to call Celtic swords claymores (with the actual gaelic spelling being claidhmore or Claidheamh mòr depending on who you ask.).


I've heard the same that you did about it being one piece of steel folded many times, and in a way, the way it's done in that PBS special is still one piece of steel. Both the "high grade" and "low grade" steel are from the same source, just the hard end is folded a lot and the other isn't. I used quotations, because IIRC, the reason the steel had to be folded so many times is that the Japanese generally used fairly poor steel to begin with.

A claymore while a celtic sword, is not the only type of swords the celts used.

[Spiryt]

A claymore while a celtic sword, is not the only type of swords the celts used.

When claymore, (regardless if you mean a big two handed sword or baskethilt one - both were reffered as claymore) was used (XVI-XVII century), celts were long forgotten, and their descendants were just Scots, Englishmen, Welsh and so on. Actual, antic celtic tribes never used something like claymore.

[zeratul]

When claymore, (regardless if you mean a big two handed sword or baskethilt one - both were reffered as claymore) was used (XVI-XVII century), celts were long forgotten, and their descendants were just Scots, Englishmen, Welsh and so on. Actual, antic celtic tribes never used something like claymore.

What about the Irish?

[Spiryt]

What about the Irish?

Irish are fine, too :smalltongue:

I mean, if I had to list all folk that can have celtic ancestors, I would have to list 3/4 of europeans nations, probably. Celts were really widespread in the past.

[YPU]

Something I find completely unmentioned is plastic… now I know right now steel is probably more effective for a weapon it is quite likely that soon enough there will be some sort of plastic that holds an edge better then steel, is harder but breaks les and probably lighter as well.

Also a quote from another site:

Synthetic diamond scalpel blades are commercially available and well liked by surgeons. Contrary to what you might think they stay sharp much better than steel and chipping doesnt seem to be a problem. Quoted sharpness is 3 nm and achieved with plasma polishing. This is like 30 atoms wide at 1 angstrom per atom.

Now tough a entire weapon made from that would probably be impossible (not to mention cliché) you could use a sword made of some super plastic with an edge made of synthetic diamond?

[Spiryt]

Now tough a entire weapon made from that would probably be impossible (not to mention cliché) you could use a sword made of some super plastic with an edge made of synthetic diamond?

Well, generally what's good for knife, is often bad for sword (stainless knives are pretty common, stainless sword would just break in no time), but it's probably possible that someday someone will find out such super plastic.

Although I don't really know.

[Spiryt]

Anyway, since there isn't really much about jian in our disscusions, here (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/search.php?mode=results) are threads about jian on myArmoury. Hope that helps.

[Wraithy]

Someone has already said steer clear of Aluminium and Titanium. Although they are strong for their weight, so is wood, and wooden swords aren't exactly popular are they?

[Xyk]

Sword-chucks! But seriously, I have nothing useful. Sword-chucks have little useful value. I just saw the swords title. I have a sword but it's a piece of crap katana I got for 50$ at a ren-faire.

[TigerHunter]

Sword-chucks! But seriously, I have nothing useful. Sword-chucks have little useful value. I just saw the swords title. I have a sword but it's a piece of crap katana I got for 50$ at a ren-faire.
Hee hee. I saw the thread title and came here just to say "I like swords."

[Cruxador]

Sword-chucks! But seriously, I have nothing useful. Sword-chucks have little useful value. I just saw the swords title. I have a sword but it's a piece of crap katana I got for 50$ at a ren-faire.

I have a set of five Japanese style blades ranging from katana to tanto, which I got for 200 krona in a beach town in Denmark. You'd think they'd suck, but they're actually very good, just somewhat high maintenance.
Also have two replica swords from Germany, and a bunch of knives and daggers from all over the world.

[Destichado]

Someone has already said steer clear of Aluminium and Titanium. Although they are strong for their weight, so is wood, and wooden swords aren't exactly popular are they?

Oh, I don't know, they were pretty popular there for a goodly while. :smallwink:
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/4428/macuahuitlpg8.jpg

And honestly, that's probably the future of "high-tech" swords. Composite blades are where it's at; a particularly good cutting material set inside a light and/or flexible body. Probably a tool steel inside either titanium or a high-alloy aluminum.

But to answer the OP's question, listen to the first poster.
Also, your instincts are good, because hand-waving is one sure way to piss off a LOT of your readers. If you don't know, "admit it" by making the relevant characters ignorant, or just do the homework.
The difference between tripe like Dragonlance and masterworks like The Song of Ice and Fire lies not in the plot, but in all the homework the author puts in to make the elements which make up the plot believable.

[Spiryt]

And honestly, that's probably the future of "high-tech" swords. Composite blades are where it's at; a particularly good cutting material set inside a light and/or flexible body. Probably a tool steel inside either titanium or a high-alloy aluminum.


Well, this assumes that swords would ever again be used as war weapons again.

And even if they will, who knows what design they should have.

Soft core and hard edge isn't really some "best" way to make a sword, it have it's con and proof, and is suitable for different situations.

And about Aztec's weapon - they're called "swords" but honestly speaking they much more resemble a mace in appearance and qualities.