Random questions about 3.5 core classes

[busterswd]

So in spite of a certain poster basically creating walls of text supporting a pretty much unanimously poor position, the monk thread was actually quite entertaining to read. In the interest of learning a bit more about metagaming in 3.5, I'd appreciate it if some of the more knowledgeable players could clue me in on some of the following questions I have:


1. What are the milestones in a Wiz/Sorc career that start them on the path to being overpowered? (IE: what are the significant spells, feats that make a wizard a real force to be reckoned with, short of obvious 9th level ones like time stop?)

2. Regarding the melee types (rangers, fighters, paladins), how do they rank in terms of power, and why?

3. Finally, of the core classes, what would you consider the best multiclass combos, assuming a reasonable stat spread? Why?

[Hadrian_Emrys]

1. Depending on the cheese, I'd say level 6 is the rough area in which casters get to wear the daddy pants in the party. A Cloistered Cleric, by that level, can use all skills (with ranks equal to 1/2 class level), trapfind as well as a rogue, give the party fast healing 1 all day long, AND still have slots left over for other magic.

2. Barbarian comes out on top, with monks and fighters fighting over scraps at the bottom. Rogues take somewhere in the middle, they seem to be the most "balanced" class in the game. Rangers... I suppose they stay above the bottom two by virtue of access to magic and a meat shiel-animal companion.

3. Things like Rogue/Swashbuckler are great because they are effective AND thematically sound. Such blends are rare to come by because of the taint of Wizard's ten-foot-pole-on for wedding fluff with crunch so firmly that the mechanics choke in claustrophobic horror.

[Decoy69]

Some spells that if used RAW are a source of Wiz/Sor overpoweredlyness are...

Alter Self. 2nd Lvl Spell. Accessed at lvl 3. Essentially lets you get better flight than the Fly spell, a level earlier. Or +6 natural armour bonus. Or a number of other things.

Polymorph. 4th lvl Spell. Accessed at lvl 7. See above, but worse.

Rope trick. 2nd lvl Spell. Accessed at lvl 3. Really useful at lvl 5 with Extend Spell. Lets you rest whenever and wherever you are.

Teleport. 5th lvl spell. Accessed at lvl 9. Travel? Random encounters? Not Any More.


Thats all the spells I can think of off the top of my head. There are many more.

[Telonius]

Some obvious milestone Arcane spells are Black Tentacles, Knock, Wind Wall, Fly, Forcecage, and Plane Shift. There are many, many others.

For the melee classes, it's kind of hard to say, and really depends on what you're going for. I would probably put Ranger and Paladin ahead of the others, for two reasons. Number one, each get spells. Number two, they each get a pet (companion for the Ranger, Mount for the Paladin). Paladin would probably edge out Ranger, unless there's a special situation (orc-heavy campaign where Orc is the Ranger's only favored enemy, etc).

I'm really torn as to where Fighter and Barbarian should be put relative to each other. Barbarian would probably edge out Fighter, despite the feats, because of superior movement, higher hit die, greater strength, better skills, and Rage.

Best multiclass: Rogue19/Anything Else 1. Really, anything else. Including Monk, CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Expert, Warrior, Adept, and Commoner (assuming you take the Chicken-Infested flaw :smallbiggrin:) That 20th level was just awful design.

Other interesting multiclasses: Fighter 2/Other Melee Class x. Snap up a couple of extra feats for a minor cost in progressing your other class.
Monk 2/Other Melee Class x. As above, plus a bump in saves, at a cost of +1BAB and a couple HP.

[Akisa]

except the once the enemy finds the window that rope trick created and can be targeted by dispel magic. Once that happens everyone will fall to the ground and prone in a surprise round with enemies that are fully buffed.

All you have to do is have someone with track feat, or someone concertinaing on detect magic.

[Eldariel]

If we're talking about Core-environment, Fighter is near the bottom. Add the SRD + Complete Warrior and the Fighter suddenly matches Barbarian just fine. Add the Book of Nine Swords and a Fighter is probably the stronger of the two.

Play with all 3.5 sources and Fighter actually begins to have some versatility to it. You can build a decent AoO-monkey with Dungeon Crasher+support, some Charger-abilities, Improved Trip and Resolute (and thus, good Will-saves) - this makes the Fighter able to:

Full Attack (just have Power Attack and you're good to go)
Charge (Shock Trooper + Power Attack + possibly Leap Attack)
Bull Rush (Dungeon Crasher + Improved Bull Rush + Shock Trooper + possibly Knock Down)
Trip (Improved Trip + Thicket of Blades)
while maintaining AoOs (Thicket of Blades + Combat Reflexes + Robilar's Gambit + Improved Trip/Stand Still + Overpowering Attack + possibly Defensive Sweep and Mage Slayer)
and solid defenses (Combat Expertise + Robilar's Gambit + Resolute)
while also having some skills (Tumble, Gather Information, Intimidate and maybe some physicals).

That's already much better than a normal Fighter (who can, if he wants to be effective, basically either focus on Tripping or Full Attacking). If we go into multiclassing, he could learn to be a decent Grappler too (but in that domain, a Barbarian is always better) along with possibly Disarming and some Unarmed Combat-abilities. So, a straight Fighter with enough books is going to be capable of doing 5 stuffs decently while maintaining solid defenses.

This Fighter in question would use: SRD, Complete Warrior, Dungeonscape, Tome of Battle, Complete Champion, Player's Handbook II, along with possibly using Cityscape web enhancement, Complete Adventurer and Complete Arcane.


Barbarian is always going to be a decent charger, a decent AoO-monkey or a decent grappler (with decent skills). But the more books are added, the more powerful the fact that a Fighter gains bonus feats gets. So in core, Barbarian >> Fighter. With few added sources, Barbarian = Fighter. With lots of added sources, Fighter > Barbarian (note only a single arrow though; Barbarian gets better too with added sources). Simply, a Fighter is less of a one-trick pony than a Barbarian.

[LordOkubo]

1) Wizards are awesome from level 1:

Level 1: Color Spray/Sleep Instantly KO multiple enemies several times a day.

Level 3: Web/Glitterdust/Alter Self Alter Self gives flight and/or huge Natural Armor bonuses. Web and Glitterdust just shut people down at long range.

Additional spells of note are Kelgore's Grave Mist/Ray of Stupidity (First, no save no SR fatigue, second Ranged Touch instant kill on all animals).

Level 5: Stinking Cloud/Ray of Exhaustion now they are exhausted or Nauseated.

Secondary of Note: Heart of Water, hours per level, water breathing, and expended for Freedom of Movement. Go cry.

level 7: Heart of Earth/Evard's Black Tentacles/Assay Resistance/Overland Flight, Temp Hp, expend for no material component Stoneskin, no Save, no SR Grapple of doom. Ignore all SR against an opponent, just in case you already couldn't. Fly all day.

level 9: Crazy town, Lesser Planar Binding an Effereti for Wish at no experience cost. Plus all those other things that are crazy awesome.

11+ just gets better.

Cleric, replace Planar Binding with Planeshift for mountains of Diamonds. Also Divine Power and Spikes to make Fighters look sad.

2) Rogues. Seriously the only PHB class that can really keep up with full casters without going to crazy town.

Barbarian/Frenzied Berserkers and Uberchargers/Super Trippers/Bullrushers can contribute, but I'd still rather have a caster.

[Aron Times]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Scrying and other higher-level Divinations. After the first few times you cast Scrying, your DM will have all BBEGs wear Amulets of Nondetection.

[Person_Man]

1. What are the milestones in a Wiz/Sorc career that start them on the path to being overpowered?

Level 1: Grease, Charm Person, Sleep, Color Spray, Summon Monster, and sometimes Silent Image (when used creatively). From there, it just gets worse.


2. Regarding the melee types (rangers, fighters, paladins), how do they rank in terms of power, and why?

Lower then any full caster, but higher then most Skill Monkeys and hybrid classes. Basically, full casters can do anything. Melee types can deal damage and have some limited battlefield control abilities. Skill Monkeys and hybrid classes (Monk, Dragon Shaman, etc) are somewhat ok at many different things. So you might want to play one in a small party, but for the most part they just duplicate the efforts of some other PC, and they do a mediocre job of it.


3. Finally, of the core classes, what would you consider the best multiclass combos, assuming a reasonable stat spread? Why?

Stipulating the fact that multi-class combos will never be as strong as Full Caster X/Full Caster progression PrC Y, I'd say that the strongest combos tend to combine the first few levels of the full BAB classes. Ranger 2/Barbarian 1/Fighter 2 (Skills, bonus feats, fast movement) or Ranger 1/Fighter 2/Paladin 3 (Skills, bonus feats, defense).

[Chronicled]

Stipulating the fact that multi-class combos will never be as strong as Full Caster X/Full Caster progression PrC Y, I'd say that the strongest combos tend to combine the first few levels of the full BAB classes. Ranger 2/Barbarian 1/Fighter 2 (Skills, bonus feats, fast movement) or Ranger 1/Fighter 2/Paladin 3 (Skills, bonus feats, defense).

How about Druid 19/Monk 1? If you HAVE to multiclass, that seems the best option available.

[ericgrau]

Ugh, count on the internet for mountains of exaggerations and misinformation on both sides. If you want to know the real answers, you'll have to look at specific details around it. Don't just take somebody's word for it, even if you hear the same thing 10 times. Chances are, all 10 are quoting the same guy indirectly. And the best evidence ever given is exactly what you've given: "Everybody knows that...".

So I'm hoping you'll look up specific rules details and decide for yourself whenever someone tells you something. But since you asked...

1. The wizard's significant spells fall under control, damage and buff. You get some good control spells right at level 1, but by spell levels 3-4 the wizard gets all the major stuff. Most of my favorite control spells are level 4, but there's some good damage and buff stuff on levels 2 and 3. So short answer is spell level 4, but you get a gradual build-up to it during levels 1-3. Check out his spell list and see for yourself.

2. People often mix up power with interesting things to do, so you'll get a lot of varied opinions here. Of the 3, fighters and paladins are roughly tied on top. The paladin needs MAD, smite and buffing spells to pull him ahead which gives him a leg up on BBEG fights. But in typical 2-4 round combats w/o a buffing round the fighter comes out ahead. And wasting 1 round out of 2-4 to buff is just screwing yourself (leaving the paladin with hardly anything useful outside of a rare smite). The ranger has a weak animal companion and weak spells; both do not add significant power. The rest, combat-wise, can be imitated with a fraction of the fighter's feats. And the ranger has light armor. So combat-wise he falls a good deal behind the fighter and paladin. But the ranger has other options like utility spells and skills, for example. The barbarian is likewise on par with the fighter and paladin. He is ahead of the fighter when raging (much like the pally when self-buffing), but behind otherwise. By the time he gets 4 rages per day, he needs to rage just to keep up with the fighter tree feats. Just add up the AB and damage and see for yourself. Defensively he gets more base HP and rage con, but takes more hits from lower AC (medium armor and -2 when raging), so it evens out. A rogue needs full plate and at least 75% of his attacks to be SA just to keep up with a fighter/barb/paladin combat-wise. His HP and BAB are simply too low. But he also a billion non-combat skills, of course. The monk falls behind them all assuming simple damage (a big assumption, but w/e), until he gets SR. Then he's still behind against martial opponents but well-ahead against spell-slinging opponents. I've run the numbers meticulously with a computer simulation. Yeah, so suck that popular opinion!

Summary (best classes for walking up to monsters and hitting them with a big heavy metal thing, again)
1. Tie: Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin (depends on situation)
2. Ranger (but has other non-combat things)
3. Rogue (but has other non-combat things; actual rank varies from 2-4 based on ability to trigger SA)
4. Monk (but #1 against spell-slinging enemies starting level 13; and assumes you use monk only for damage).

Putting paladin/ranger/rogue on top falls under the common mistake of "mixing up power with interesting things to do" that I mentioned earlier.

3. Well strongest thing in core is usually to just play a single class caster. Maybe prestige into archmage or w/e. And if you're a non-caster you can usually mix & match with impunity, so it's hard to say. In the computer simulation I used when answering #2, the optimum combo - after weeks of testing - was a Dwarf fighter 12/sorc 1/dragon disciple 7. That's for 4 encounters per day. For a 1 shot, you change your 1st level to barbarian for the rage. If you get a buffing round every combat, you'd substitute in paladin levels in place of most of the fighter levels. If you need 2 rages, then you'd get more level of barb. If you need 3, then it's almost not worth it anymore, and it's probably best to stick to fighter unless you need other barb abilities. And if your DM lets you, you might as well start off as a half-dragon instead of going dragon-discple. And there are MM and non-core races that are a little better than dwarf. Etc., etc. It all depends. And if you need a skillmonkey...

[LordOkubo]

A rogue needs full plate and at least 75% of his attacks to be SA just to keep up with a fighter/barb/paladin combat-wise. His HP and BAB are simply too low. But he also a billion non-combat skills, of course.

Luckily for rogues, they usually manage 100% sneak attacks as a general rule.

Seriously, you number crunched D&D with a computer, that's cute. You do know that not everyone else is confined to Core, and so has the options of not sucking right?

Seriously, Intelligent Ring of Blinking, Pierce Magical concealment if your DM hasn't read the rules on Ethreal objects.

Then you can either be a bow rogue a TWFing rogue (this one needs Pierce Magical Concealment) with a single level of Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian and or a acid flask rogue.

Either way, that UMD isn't for "fun options" it's for swift action casting of Grave Strike/Golem Strike/Plant Strike, ect.

[Hal]

1. Others have elaborated far better than I could, but I'll put my vote in for "strong at all levels."

2. Fighters and Barbarians really have to pick their feats right to keep up with the others, but they can still be competitive. Paladins and Rangers have some great spells, but they'll never compare to Wiz/Soc and their progression is terribly slow. If you throw in spells from supplemental books, though, they really get a leg-up.

3. If you're not including PrCs, there's no real reason to multiclass with the core characters. I might suggest Fighter/Barbarian, mainly because Barbarians can benefit from the increase in feats and Fighters can benefit from the rage and skills. Really, any of the non-magic classes with Fighter can benefit.

[Tormsskull]

1. What are the milestones in a Wiz/Sorc career that start them on the path to being overpowered? (IE: what are the significant spells, feats that make a wizard a real force to be reckoned with, short of obvious 9th level ones like time stop?)


Honestly, you'd have to explain what you mean by overpowered. Is a save or suck overpowered? If so, then 1st level.



2. Regarding the melee types (rangers, fighters, paladins), how do they rank in terms of power, and why?


What do you mean by "power"?



3. Finally, of the core classes, what would you consider the best multiclass combos, assuming a reasonable stat spread? Why?


Assuming a reasonable stat spread, I would suggest you try to pick classes that syncronize with one another. From example, a light-weapon fighter that relies on a high dexterity would probably mesh with the rogue class, since a high Dexterity favors them both.

But, it really depends on what books are available to you as well. In general, if you are trying to get the most combat prowess that you can, I'd suggest looking at the later supplements.



Seriously, you number crunched D&D with a computer, that's cute. You do know that not everyone else is confined to Core, and so has the options of not sucking right?


Harshness from a Newgrounder :smallfrown:

[Spiryt]

Paladins and Rangers have some great spells, but they'll never compare to Wiz/Soc and their progression is terribly slow. If you throw in spells from supplemental books, though, they really get a leg-up.


Well, the point of their spells is to buff themselves, and some additional death to the evil ones/embracing the wild, not to fly and make deathclouds.

Paladin spells are pretty OK, but Ranger lists unfortunately have indeed many spells that are useless or so specific that no one will even prepare them. :smallsigh:

Ranger needs Spell Compendium or just quick homebrew - adding some interesting spells. For example - Displacement as a 3th level ranger spell seem just OK for me.

[Telonius]

I wouldn't call the Ranger's spell list completely useless. Resist Energy in particular is often very useful. And every one the Ranger prepares is one the Cleric or Wizard doesn't have to. Same way with the (animal)'s (ability) spells.

[Spiryt]

I wouldn't call the Ranger's spell list completely useless. Resist Energy in particular is often very useful. And every one the Ranger prepares is one the Cleric or Wizard doesn't have to. Same way with the (animal)'s (ability) spells.

And Owl's Wisdom (bonus to skills and only weak save? Hell yes), and Barskin (+2/3/4 to AC for full BaB? Sure) and Freedom of Movement...

Yes, Ranger have good spells, but Paladin have more IMO. Particulary 3rd level of Ranger spells is somewhat lacking. Water walk, neutralise poison and all always help, but still.

[Eldariel]

Fact is though that Core Ranger list synergizes very poorly with Ranger's tasks. There's nothing really archery-related and the scouting/tracking-abilities are lacking too. The directly offensive spells (such as Entangle) are completely useless due to the lack of Wis-focus and the level, on which the spells are acquired. Add Spell Compendium and Ranger List suddenly gets awesome, but before that, Ranger's casting is a mere bandaid into Freedom of Movement (the one really good spell available) - there're few handy ones like Darkvision, Neutralize Poison and Water Walk, but those just aren't very powerful compared to what they could be (Fly, Heal, Blindsight, etc.) and the rest tend to be rather useless either because of what they do (Diminish Plants? I'll totally prepare that each morning!) or just suck because they require a save that isn't of relevant size (nice Entangle - get a Druid to cast it next time though).

[LordOkubo]

Also, as a side note about the whole Rope Trick thing, finding an invisible Ropre trick is incredibly difficult, because of course you put it someplace hard to find to begin with (like 200ft up in the air, or in a corner of a room that is little used, or if you are really getting busy, inside a passwall that is then dismissed.)

Secondly, even if they do find it, they can't dispel it. They can cast dispel on the window all they want, but the rope is actually the location of the spell, so they would have to cast a Transdimensional Dispel Magic (and since that's a 5th level spell, you'll probably be looking at need a Greater Dispel to actually dispel it, which again, means 8th level spell).

So yes, there are ways to beat it, but the absorb several times the actual resource as using it, and you still aren't at any sort of disadvantage.

[Saph]

1. Regarding caster/noncaster power in 3.5, I worked out a basic rule of thumb a year ago that I've seen proved right far more than wrong.

Level 1-4: Meleers dominate over casters.
Level 5-10: Meleers and casters are reasonably balanced.
Level 11-14: Casters dominate over meleers.
Level 15-20: Casters dominate over everything.
Level 21+: Divide By Cucumber Error. Please reinstall universe and reboot.

Certain classes break this pattern, though, mainly Druids and Monks; Druids are awesome at every level from 1 to 20, and Monks are the opposite.

2. The melee classes really work best in multiclass, not in single-class. That said, Rangers can work fine as a single-class character, and in some ways are a pretty good baseline for balance.

3. The best core multiclass combo I know of is Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger - take the best bits from each and you get a much stronger meleer than any one would be on its own.

- Saph

[monty]

Level 21+: Divide By Cucumber Error. Rocks fall, everybody dies (well, except the casters, obviously). Please reinstall universe and reboot.

Fixed for you.

[Hal]

Level 21+: Divide By Cucumber Error. Rocks fall, everybody dies (well, except the casters, obviously). Please reinstall universe and reboot.

No matter how many rocks you plan to have fall out of nowhere, the wizard already has a quickened "Transmute Rock" spell prepared.

[Frosty]

3. The best core multiclass combo I know of is Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger - take the best bits from each and you get a much stronger meleer than any one would be on its own.

- Saph

I like Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger/Horizon Walker myself.

[Spiryt]

Level 21+: Divide By Cucumber Error. Tippy makes some DC 314 spell, everybody dies (well, except the casters, obviously) Please reinstall universe and reboot.
- Saph

Further fix(ation). :smallbiggrin:

[Saph]

I like Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger/Horizon Walker myself.

That's the one. I made a thread on it a while back, if you're interested: here it is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415).

- Saph

[fractic]

Level 21+: Divide By Cucumber Error. Tippy creates a DC 0 epic spell, rearranges the galaxy, animates the planet, makes a spaceship and everybody dies. Please reinstall universe and reboot.


Even further fixed.

[Frosty]

That's the one. I made a thread on it a while back, if you're interested: here it is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415).

- Saph

Good guide!


Tome of Battle: Once Tome of Battle is allowed, you don't really need this build anymore - the whole point of the Horizon Tripper is to give you the same sort of flexibility and general fun-ness that Tome of Battle characters have without going outside core

Says a lot about ToB classes eh? :smalltongue:

[Curmudgeon]

Alter Self. 2nd Lvl Spell. Accessed at lvl 3. Essentially lets you get better flight than the Fly spell, a level earlier. How, exactly, does Alter Self accomplish that for a standard humanoid race? If your setting allows Forgotten Realms races, you can take the form of an Avariel and get a 50' fly speed, as tabulated in [3.5]Forms for Alter Self (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=176246). If you don't have FR races, there are no humanoid forms that offer flight at 3 HD.

The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet (or 40 feet if it wears medium or heavy armor, or if it carries a medium or heavy load). Tactically speaking, 60' flight speed is better than 50'.

[Covered In Bees]

1. Regarding caster/noncaster power in 3.5, I worked out a basic rule of thumb a year ago that I've seen proved right far more than wrong.

Level 1-4: Meleers dominate over casters.
Level 5-10: Meleers and casters are reasonably balanced.


I'd say level 9 is when Overwhelming Caster Winhood kicks in.

-Druids already got Large Wild Shape at 8th, but now they have SNA V (Polar Bear, 1d3 tigers/dire apes/brown bears/giant crocodiles) and Animal Growth. They've also got Control Winds, which is devastating.
Of course, Druids rock constantly, and this power jump comes after another one at 6th (Natural Spell, Plant Growth/Entangle, SNAs) and 8th (Dire Lion wild shape).

-Clerics get Quickened Divine Favor + Divine Power. If they're non-core, they also have Holy Warrior boosting their damage (especially good for archers).

-Wizards get Overland Flight, which means any enemies without flight and/or a strong ranged attacks, or ones in cramped indoor quarters (where wizard battlefield control already rules) can't hurt him. Scribing numerous Greater Invisibility scrolls is fairly affordable. Throwing around 4th-level+ spells every or almost every fight is fairly doable.

Sorcerers are behind wizards due to lack of spells known. Non-core sorcerers would be picking up Wings of Flurry at 8th (7th for kobolds) and Arcane Fusion at 10th.

[Chronos]

Assuming that everything in this discussion is core-only, not just the classes.

On question 1: Casters are always powerful, right from level 1. The only things that really hold them back at low level are that, first, they can only be powerful two or three times a day, and second, that if their spells fail, their low HP can very quickly put them into "completely screwed" territory. Once you get enough HP that a typical monster can't one-shot you, and enough spell slots that you can cast a high-level (compared to your own level) spell every encounter of the day, they really start taking off.

On question 2: Barbarians are the best, if you just take them straight out of the box. Rangers, paladins, and especially fighters have a lot of opportunities for improvement that barbarians don't (spells for the first two, feats for the fighter), but in core, there just aren't enough good feats to fill up a pure fighter's slots. If you step outside of core, you can find enough feats for a fighter that he surpasses a barbarian. Rangers and paladins do, however, both have out-of-combat utility that fighters and barbarians both lack (tracking, detect evil at will, ability to use cure wands, etc.). For the best overall melee character, though, we're leading into question 3...

Question 3: The full-BAB classes all mix-and-match fairly seamlessly. Even in a mostly-barbarian build, you'll almost always want 2 or 4 levels of fighter, and a fighter can almost always benefit from a one-level dip into barbarian or paladin (depending on alignment). The heavy-skills classes (rogue, ranger, and bard) can also mix relatively well (in fact, in 3.0, the best core bard build was actually mostly rogue).

[Saph]

I'd say level 9 is when Overwhelming Caster Winhood kicks in.

It's arguable, but I think a ToB character or a really well-built meleer can still get along fine in a level 9-10 party. Level 5 ToB maneuvers are pretty awesome; I've seen a level 8-9 level Swordsage routinely kill opponents with a single pouncing charge. The meleers have started to depend on the casters for stuff like Restoration and Teleport, but they should be pretty effective in combat themselves.

The reason I put it at level 11 is not so much because level 6 spells are awesome (although they are) but because at level 11 a caster gets to the point of being able to throw out a couple of level 4-6 spells per encounter, instead of saving them for the big threats.

Doesn't apply to Druids, of course, who are one-man parties no matter what level you're playing at.

- Saph

[Covered In Bees]

It's arguable, but I think a ToB character or a really well-built meleer can still get along fine in a level 9-10 party. Level 5 ToB maneuvers are pretty awesome; I've seen a level 8-9 level Swordsage routinely kill opponents with a single pouncing charge. The meleers have started to depend on the casters for stuff like Restoration and Teleport, but they should be pretty effective in combat themselves.
I don't think core meleers can really keep up at that point.


The reason I put it at level 11 is not so much because level 6 spells are awesome (although they are) but because at level 11 a caster gets to the point of being able to throw out a couple of level 4-6 spells per encounter, instead of saving them for the big threats.
That's true, I guess. I see 9 as the real jump in power, though. The rest is just adding more awesome to the pile.


Doesn't apply to Druids, of course, who are one-man parties no matter what level you're playing at.

- Saph
"We'll play at level 1, druids aren't overpowered then, right."
"2-HD animal companion and a spell that does 2d6 nonlethal damage, lol"
"Dammit."

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Only 2-HD? What kind of Druid doesn't take Natural Bond at 1st level?

For those who don't know, Natural Bond is a feat that lets your Druid level count as +3 for the purposes of an Animal Companion, to a max of your HD. Good for a multiclass build or Ranger, until you realize that, by the wording, it also would allow you to negate the penalty to Druid level incurred by having a stronger AC. Like, for example, if you wanted a Fleshraker at first level.

[Spiryt]

Only 2-HD? What kind of Druid doesn't take Natural Bond at 1st level?

For those who don't know, Natural Bond is a feat that lets your Druid level count as +3 for the purposes of an Animal Companion, to a max of your HD. Good for a multiclass build or Ranger, until you realize that, by the wording, it also would allow you to negate the penalty to Druid level incurred by having a stronger AC. Like, for example, if you wanted a Fleshraker at first level.

I wonder if there is long lost, forgotten entry in SRD, which says "all full casters gain experience x 2 times slower".

Then it maybe would make some sense. :smallcool:

[Covered In Bees]

Only 2-HD? What kind of Druid doesn't take Natural Bond at 1st level?

For those who don't know, Natural Bond is a feat that lets your Druid level count as +3 for the purposes of an Animal Companion, to a max of your HD. Good for a multiclass build or Ranger, until you realize that, by the wording, it also would allow you to negate the penalty to Druid level incurred by having a stronger AC. Like, for example, if you wanted a Fleshraker at first level.

I can not even begin to tell you just how much Natural Bond does not work that way.

[LordOkubo]

Only 2-HD? What kind of Druid doesn't take Natural Bond at 1st level?

For those who don't know, Natural Bond is a feat that lets your Druid level count as +3 for the purposes of an Animal Companion, to a max of your HD. Good for a multiclass build or Ranger, until you realize that, by the wording, it also would allow you to negate the penalty to Druid level incurred by having a stronger AC. Like, for example, if you wanted a Fleshraker at first level.

Sorry, you can only negate the penalty if you could get the AC already. It allows you to have a more awesome Fleshraker at level 4, but you still can't have anything better then a Riding Dog at level 1.

[Covered In Bees]

Sorry, you can only negate the penalty if you could get the AC already. It allows you to have a more awesome Fleshraker at level 4, but you still can't have anything better then a Riding Dog at level 1.

I'm pretty sure that technically (was there an FAQ clarification?) Natural Bond doesn't even do *that*. Multiclassing only, final destination.

[LordOkubo]

I'm pretty sure that technically (was there an FAQ clarification?) Natural Bond doesn't even do *that*. Multiclassing only, final destination.

Unless there's an errata, it does that.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Sorry, you can only negate the penalty if you could get the AC already. It allows you to have a more awesome Fleshraker at level 4, but you still can't have anything better then a Riding Dog at level 1.True. Oops.

For those interested, the feat is here. (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Natural_Bond,all)

[Akisa]

Umm your max level for animal companion as a lvl 1 character with natural bond is still 1 because it's limited to your hd.