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Realms of Chaos
2008-08-13, 11:45 AM
I am confused as to what happens if you have barbarian and frenzied berserker levels and you take the extend rage and/or extra rage feats.

with most either-or feats, there is a stanza stating something like "if you have both frenzy and rage abilities, choose one of them". However, these feats noticeably miss such a stanza.

With extra rage, does each application of the feat grant you two additional uses of either the rage or frenzy ability, two uses of each, or two additional uses to split between the two each day? The language is pretty unclear.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-08-13, 12:40 PM
The feat gives you two more uses total. It is possible that these uses can be used for either of the two abilities, but you do not get two times two extra uses. (Although it is easier to make the choice upon selecting the feat, but the RAW is not explicit on the procedure on that point)

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-08-13, 02:44 PM
Absolutely incorrect. Citation pending.

Still waiting....

Eldariel
2008-08-13, 02:56 PM
Hmm, the wording on Extra Rage seems to suggest that you get a two special Rage/Frenzy uses that you can expend to use either ability. "You rage or frenzy two more times per day than you otherwise could." Extra Rage uses 'or', which appears to suggest it applies to either Rage or Frenzy (I'd imagine it would be 'Your rage and frenzy lasts 5 turns longer' if it were to apply to both). Unfortunately, CWar errata doesn't address this. Destructive Rage for example clearly applies to both - "While you are in rage or frenzy, ...". Since Destructive Rage seems to clearly apply to both, I find it reasonable to assume that the other Rage/Frenzy feats would too.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-08-13, 03:09 PM
You get two more uses, not 2x2 = 4 uses. Otherwise the or loses all meaning. I can see it as applying universally to either allowing the user to choose, but that involves increased bookkeeping to track the two floating uses.

LordOkubo
2008-08-13, 03:15 PM
It's simple:

Extra and extend rage feature the same wording. If you have a Rage or Frenzy ability you gain extra uses of Rage or Frenzy. Do you have a frenzy? If yes you gain more frenzies. Do you have a rage? If yes, you gain more rages.

There is nothing to limit them in any way, despite being wording to that effect on all sorts of other feats (see practiced spellcaster).

Also Destructive Rage says if you have Rage or Frenzy in exactly the same matter, but I bet you don't think they have to choose which one it applies to do you?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-08-13, 03:32 PM
It's simple:

Apparently not.


Extra and extend rage feature the same wording. If you have a Rage or Frenzy ability you gain extra uses of Rage or Frenzy. Do you have a frenzy? If yes you gain more frenzies. Do you have a rage? If yes, you gain more rages.


The wording is not the same.

Extend Rage says:

"Each of the uses of your rage or frenzy ability..."

Extra Rage says:

"You rage or frenzy two more times..."

Destructive Rage says:

"When you are in a rage or frenzy..."


For both Extend Rage and Destructive Rage the sentence means (or at least can have that meaning) that what follows applies in either state.

Extra Rage does not have such wording as to include both states.

You eat apples or oranges 5 times a day does not mean that you eat 5 of each.



There is nothing to limit them in any way, despite being wording to that effect on all sorts of other feats (see practiced spellcaster).

Such wording is needed in those cases, so as to limit the scope. In this case the or suffices to achieve that outcome. (Whether intended.)

Tormsskull
2008-08-13, 03:42 PM
I'm not familiar with any of these abilities, but by reading the text provided:

"you gain extra uses of Rage or Frenzy."

I would assume that the "or" means mutually exclusive.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-08-13, 04:25 PM
I would assume that the "or" means mutually exclusive.

That is the most common usage of the word or today. :smallwink:

LordOkubo
2008-08-13, 05:51 PM
That is the most common usage of the word or today. :smallwink:

Yes, lets be sarcastic and insulting for people not understanding the meaning of the word or despite the fact that two of the three examples by your own admission use or in an inclusive sense.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-08-14, 01:47 AM
Yes, lets be sarcastic and insulting for people not understanding the meaning of the word or despite the fact that two of the three examples by your own admission use or in an inclusive sense.

I can assure you that I meant no insult to anyone.

I do not think that anyone here does not understand the meaning of the word (the context in which it was used was just "misleading").

My post was meant to confirm what Tormsskull said (or has had different meanings than it has today); or as a conjunction indicates an alternative (see the apple/orange story above (which could have been written more stringent I admit)), or used as a logic operator is used to list conditions for which only of them needs to hold. E.g. If you give me an apple or an orange I will give you a dollar.*

Again, I am truly sorry if anyone felt insulted, but may I suggest that if one is easily offended it might be a good idea to not preface one's own posts by things like "absolutely incorrect" and "it's simple"....



*: Disclaimer: The sentence is not an offer to buy fruit of any kind.