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TwoBitWriter
2008-08-13, 03:29 PM
I have not seen a single bit that indicates anything resembling Arcane spell failure. So, does that mean that if a D&D 4th Edition Wizard wants to use the feats to get Plate armor, he can do so with no penalty to his casting?

That goes against everything my 1st edition suckled, 2nd edition weaned, and 3rd edition pubert-ized mind can comprehend!

Has anyone found a rule about that, or is it truly open season for Wizard-armor now?

Tormsskull
2008-08-13, 03:31 PM
You are correct. Wizards can wear armor with the correct feats without any problems akin to ASF.

hamishspence
2008-08-13, 03:34 PM
yes, but said feats require increasingly high strength, and previous feats. So wizard would need a high strength and proficiency in lesser armours to wear plate with no penalty. But, whether you are penalized or not skillwize, magicwise you are just fine.

While this may seem odd, as 3.5 progressed, several wizard-type classes gained ability to cast in light, sometime medium armour with no penalty. And non-D&D fantasy games do not always penalize wizards for wearing armour.

ColdSepp
2008-08-13, 03:35 PM
yes, but said feats require increasingly high strength, and previous feats. So wizard would need a high strength and proficiency in lesser armours to wear plate with no penalty. But, whether you are penalized or not skillwize, magicwise you are just fine.

While this may seem odd, as 3.5 progressed, several wizard-type classes gained ability to cast in light, sometime medium armour with no penalty. And non-D&D fantasy games do not always penalize wizards for wearing armour.

Hide armor or lower adds INT or DEX to AC, so you can wear it with the right feats to boost your AC, if you wished.

TwoBitWriter
2008-08-13, 03:37 PM
I think Hide or Leather, mixed with a Wizard's high INT would make for an effective armor class indeed... But at the cost of two feats... Though with INT affecting AC now, anything more than Hide would seem a total waste.

But I think using one feat for Leather Armor proficiency would be worth it, particularly for getting masterwork leather in later levels.

spamoo
2008-08-13, 04:23 PM
I think Hide or Leather, mixed with a Wizard's high INT would make for an effective armor class indeed... But at the cost of two feats... Though with INT affecting AC now, anything more than Hide would seem a total waste.

But I think using one feat for Leather Armor proficiency would be worth it, particularly for getting masterwork leather in later levels.

Exactly. The need of 2+ feats for metal armor and a decent strength score makes the armored wizard possible, but an impractical option (at least until more supplements come out).

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-13, 04:33 PM
The most cost-effective option is to take Armor Proficiency (leather) only. It has no prerequisites, so you don't need to waste points on ability scores you otherwise don't need, and it's a full +2 AC up from cloth, whereas hide is only +1 up from leather. On top of that, you will have a high Intelligence (or you won't, and you'll be useless), and you apply that to your AC along with your armor while wearing hide or less.

So basically, Armor Proficiency (leather) for wizards is a feat that may as well say "you gain a +2 bonus to your AC." Not a bad use of a feat.

Siegel
2008-08-13, 05:49 PM
I'm still asking whether if this was a failure or intended

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-13, 05:54 PM
I'm still asking whether if this was a failure or intended

It's obviously intended. Why not? 3.5 had plenty of wizards in (mithral) plate armor; 4E makes it less of an onerous task to accomplish.

Saph
2008-08-13, 05:54 PM
So basically, Armor Proficiency (leather) for wizards is a feat that may as well say "you gain a +2 bonus to your AC." Not a bad use of a feat.

Seconded. I'm of the opinion that Armour Proficiency (Leather) is a must-have for wizards, along with Warrior of the Wild. +2 AC is huge, and will routinely turn a hit into a miss.

From there the feat choices for a wizard get harder. I'm a fan of Toughness and Improved Initiative, personally.

- Saph

ps - Don't really know whether it was a failure or intended, but I think leather armour looks nicer than cloth, so I'm in favour.

fractic
2008-08-13, 05:56 PM
Hide can be worth it though. You get armor specialization(hide) at paragon levels for an extra +1AC. If you're a staff wizard going into wizard of the spiral tower and other gishy stuff it usefull.

Saph
2008-08-13, 05:59 PM
Hide can be worth it though. You get armor specialization(hide) at paragon levels for an extra +1AC. If you're a staff wizard going into wizard of the spiral tower and other gishy stuff it usefull.

Problem with hide is that it requires a 13 Str, and Str is the natural dump stat for a wizard (assuming you've got a few points in Con, Str gets you pretty much nothing).

Well, Cha too, I guess.

- Saph

Edit: I knew there was a reason Cha was a bad Wizard dump stat; the Spell Focus feat in Paragon. It requires Cha 13 and it's basically the only way to increase your save DCs more than once an encounter.

fractic
2008-08-13, 06:03 PM
13 str is indeed a bit of a problem but not really that much. You start with a 10 turn it into a 12 from point buy and +1 at level 11 finishes it off. It's a bit of an investment but not that big. Especially if you're multiclassing some martial class for the real gish feel.

Ruzak
2008-08-13, 06:14 PM
My problem is not with the option of wearing armor, but that the Leather Proficiency feat is just too good. The traditional robed wizard is penalized for his style choice. While there will always be role playing/optimization conflicts, this seems like a big change to the "standard" wizard, who will now wear leather.

fractic
2008-08-13, 06:15 PM
robes fit perfectly well over that ugly leather armor.

JaxGaret
2008-08-13, 06:22 PM
My problem is not with the option of wearing armor, but that the Leather Proficiency feat is just too good. The traditional robed wizard is penalized for his style choice. While there will always be role playing/optimization conflicts, this seems like a big change to the "standard" wizard, who will now wear leather.

Take the feat and describe your character as wearing robes.

Maybe it's a tough robe :smallsmile:

Ecalsneerg
2008-08-13, 06:26 PM
Magically woven fabrics. From an... enchanted spinning wheel.

JaxGaret
2008-08-13, 06:29 PM
Magically woven fabrics. From an... enchanted spinning wheel.

There you go. A Wizard did it. Literally.

Get your Magirobe here! Magirobes! Wears like leather armor, looks like robes, magically enhanced in the places that matter most! Magirobes!

NPCMook
2008-08-13, 06:36 PM
I am actually planning a decently built Mid range Wizards, compared to the other wizard in the group I won't be as awesome with spells, but I won't fall over by a Gryphon's feather brushing against my cheek

My stat line is currently a bit messed up as I did my point buy incorrectly, and will fix it next session. This is the current plan for my Eladrin Psuedo-Swordmage:

STR:15
CON:13[+1 at level 4
DEX:13(+2 Racial)[+1 at level 8
INT:17(+2 Racial)[+1 at level 4, level 8, level 14
WIS:12[+1 at 14,
CHA:10

Level #: Name of Feat [Prerequisite]

Level 1: Armor Proficiency: Leather Armor[-]
Level 2: Improved Initiative[-]
Level 4: Shield Proficiency: Light Shield
Level 6: [S]Quick Draw(for the +2 Initiative)[DEX 13]Toughness[-]
Level 8: Armor Proficiency: Hide Armor[STR 13, CON 13, Training w/ Leather Armor]
Level 10: Shield Proficiency: Heavy Shield[STR 15, Training w/ Light Shield]
At level 11 I become a Wizard of the Spiral Tower, and gain a +1 to all stats.
Level 11: Hide Armor Specialization[CON 15, Trained w/ Hide Armor]
Level 12: Shield Specialization[DEX 15, Trained w/ either Light or Heavy Shield]
At level 14, it kind of becomes a challenge of what feats to pick, and I'm just not sure where I'd go from there...

Saph
2008-08-13, 06:40 PM
Level 2: Improved Initiative[-]
Level 4: Shield Proficiency: Light Shield[STR 13]
Level 6: Quick Draw(for the +2 Initiative)[DEX 13]

Sorry to bring you bad news, but Quick Draw and Improved Initiative don't stack. They're both feat bonuses.

Once you hit Paragon, I recommend Danger Sense instead. Combined with Improved Initiative, you should be near the top of the initiative order every combat.

- Saph

NPCMook
2008-08-13, 06:50 PM
Sorry to bring you bad news, but Quick Draw and Improved Initiative don't stack. They're both feat bonuses.

Once you hit Paragon, I recommend Danger Sense instead. Combined with Improved Initiative, you should be near the top of the initiative order every combat.

- SaphSo then what would your recommend to replace Quick Draw? as Hide Armor Specialization is also a Paragon Feat, and can not be taken before level 11

Blackdrop
2008-08-13, 06:53 PM
Eladrin Soldier possibly would be good nice since Spiral Wizards attacks are melee based. Or possibly Toughness for having the HP of a wizard 2-3 levels higher then you

fractic
2008-08-13, 06:54 PM
Multiclass feats are also a good option.

Saph
2008-08-13, 06:58 PM
So then what would your recommend to replace Quick Draw? as Hide Armor Specialization is also a Paragon Feat, and can not be taken before level 11

I'd say Toughness.

A level 1 wizard with a 13 Con has 23 HP, and a healing surge value of 5.
A level 1 wizard with a 13 Con and also Toughness has 28 HP, and a healing surge value of 7.

That's a big difference, especially over a long day of adventuring where you keep using surges.

- Saph

NPCMook
2008-08-13, 07:12 PM
Eladrin Soldier possibly would be good nice since Spiral Wizards attacks are melee based. Or possibly Toughness for having the HP of a wizard 2-3 levels higher then youEladrin Soldier is debatable since the character is meant for Mid-Range, while Toughness is probably the better of the two choices


Multiclass feats are also a good option.None of the Multiclass feats are really that good as they stand now, though the Cleric feat is a possible choice if only to gain Healing word once an encounter


I'd say Toughness.

A level 1 wizard with a 13 Con has 23 HP, and a healing surge value of 5.
A level 1 wizard with a 13 Con and also Toughness has 28 HP, and a healing surge value of 7.

That's a big difference, especially over a long day of adventuring where you keep using surges.

- SaphThis is probably the best option for a Mid-Range Wizard, since at each Tier you gain an additional 5 points of HP, so at Paragon(Level 11) the Wizard would have a total of 73 HP

Gralamin
2008-08-13, 07:14 PM
None of the Multiclass feats are really that good as they stand now, though the Cleric feat is a possible choice if only to gain Healing word once an encounter
Multiclass feats are good when you need skill training in something anyway, since you can pick up an extra benefit.

Saph
2008-08-13, 07:15 PM
None of the Multiclass feats are really that good as they stand now, though the Cleric feat is a possible choice if only to gain Healing word once an encounter.

The multi-Cleric feat only gives Healing Word once per day. But it's still not a bad choice, since it can easily save your life or the life of another PC.

Warrior of the Wild is a good all-round pick in order to get the Perception skill, but if you're an Eladrin you probably have that already.

- Saph

Aron Times
2008-08-13, 07:19 PM
I prefer starting out as a warlord and then multiclassing into wizard. I get more HP, hide armor, and more weapon proficiencies. I lose out on at-will area attacks, but I make up for it by buffing the entire party (and blasting every now and then).

My preferred build is warlord/wizard/battle captain/demigod. This build is a passable warrior and mage, and makes the rest of the party a whole lot better.

Blackdrop
2008-08-13, 07:30 PM
Eladrin Soldier is debatable since the character is meant for Mid-Range, while Toughness is probably the better of the two choices



I get that it is supposed to be mid-ranged but the Spiral Tower paragon path powers are short ranged, thus a decent damage boost is helpful.

Covered In Bees
2008-08-13, 07:36 PM
The multi-Cleric feat only gives Healing Word once per day. But it's still not a bad choice, since it can easily save your life or the life of another PC.

This is true.
Also, minor-action healing makes games so much better I can't even begin to say.

Mewtarthio
2008-08-13, 07:45 PM
My problem is not with the option of wearing armor, but that the Leather Proficiency feat is just too good. The traditional robed wizard is penalized for his style choice. While there will always be role playing/optimization conflicts, this seems like a big change to the "standard" wizard, who will now wear leather.

Well, for now, anyway. As future splatbooks (and future "core" books) release magic armors, I'm fairly certain that all the best wizard armors will be cloth.

Covered In Bees
2008-08-13, 07:50 PM
Well, for now, anyway. As future splatbooks (and future "core" books) release magic armors, I'm fairly certain that all the best wizard armors will be cloth.

omg cloth armor 4e = WoW

NPCMook
2008-08-13, 07:53 PM
The multi-Cleric feat only gives Healing Word once per day. But it's still not a bad choice, since it can easily save your life or the life of another PC.

Warrior of the Wild is a good all-round pick in order to get the Perception skill, but if you're an Eladrin you probably have that already.

- SaphWow am I off on my rules tonight... Glad I'm not actually gaming >.>


I prefer starting out as a warlord and then multiclassing into wizard. I get more HP, hide armor, and more weapon proficiencies. I lose out on at-will area attacks, but I make up for it by buffing the entire party (and blasting every now and then).

My preferred build is warlord/wizard/battle captain/demigod. This build is a passable warrior and mage, and makes the rest of the party a whole lot better. Our Group already has a Warlord, so it would be kind of a moot point

This build could also be used for a Swordmage, with omitting a few feats since Swordmage's begin with Leather, and Light Shield's.

It seems I have unwittingly hi-jacked this thread from its original point by posting my character's build... Originally the point of showing the build was to show a possible way of getting to at least Hide Armor, I'd highly recommend doing so since even in leather you are pretty much going to get ripped to shreads(Last session my character was almost killed in a single blow, while wearing leather!) Since in Hide you can still add either you Dex or Int you could have a pretty decent AC. Assuming you have a 18 in INT at level 1, a +2 Racial, put +1 into INT every level you can, and choose the Demi-God Epic Destiny..

10(Base)+5(Magic Elderhide Armor)+10(Int Mod)+15(1/2 Level)+6(Enhancement for Magic Armor)+1(Hide Armor Specialization)=47 AC
51 AC with Wizard Level 2 Utility Shield
An actual Shield +1/+2

So pretty much at level 30 you could very well have a 47-49 AC without any powers being used, I'd say its worth spending the feats to get Hide Armor if possible

Starbuck_II
2008-08-13, 08:07 PM
My problem is not with the option of wearing armor, but that the Leather Proficiency feat is just too good. The traditional robed wizard is penalized for his style choice. While there will always be role playing/optimization conflicts, this seems like a big change to the "standard" wizard, who will now wear leather.

Don't forgot certain magic armors can't be anything but cloth. Cetain have rio Leather.

By using Leather you are forbidden from using the cloth one. It can matter.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-13, 08:24 PM
So then what would your recommend to replace Quick Draw? as Hide Armor Specialization is also a Paragon Feat, and can not be taken before level 11

Personally, I'd recommend Quick Draw to replace Quick Draw, and ditch Improved Initiative.

You only get +2 to initiative versus the +4 the other gives, sure, but you also get the ability to effectively draw items for free, including all healing potions. This, in turn, lets you draw and use a potion when you're a little too battered with just a single minor action, as opposed to having to burn two of them on just that one thing. I can't stress enough how nice minimizing the number of actions you have to burn to do something like that can be.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-13, 08:26 PM
Don't forgot certain magic armors can't be anything but cloth. Cetain have rio Leather.

By using Leather you are forbidden from using the cloth one. It can matter.

Mostly for the Mantle of the 7th Wind, though. That's because it's the only "flight" item other than the Carpet of Flying that can be used continuously.

JaxGaret
2008-08-13, 09:45 PM
Personally, I'd recommend Quick Draw to replace Quick Draw, and ditch Improved Initiative.

You only get +2 to initiative versus the +4 the other gives, sure, but you also get the ability to effectively draw items for free, including all healing potions. This, in turn, lets you draw and use a potion when you're a little too battered with just a single minor action, as opposed to having to burn two of them on just that one thing. I can't stress enough how nice minimizing the number of actions you have to burn to do something like that can be.

Agreed. QD + Danger Sense should be plenty good.

Helgraf
2008-08-13, 10:13 PM
Quick Draw is also good if you're planning on "Second Implement Mastery". Swap that orb for that wand (or staff) quick-change style. Go to town.

NPCMook
2008-08-13, 10:25 PM
So looking at these numbers, apparently a character in Hide, with Max Dex/Int has a higher AC than a Defender in Plate.. o.O
Base 1/2 Armor Ability Feat Enh Shield Total
Level Mod
Character in Hide:10 +15 +5 +10 +2 +6 +2 50

Character in Plate:10 +15 +14 N/A +2 +6 +2 49

So its only 1 point higher, but of course 1 point could mean you don't take a massive hit

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-13, 10:46 PM
Quick Draw is also good if you're planning on "Second Implement Mastery". Swap that orb for that wand (or staff) quick-change style. Go to town.

Note that, with Mage Hand, you can swap as a Minor Action already. Using Quick Draw instead means you have to drop the Orb unless you want to spend a Minor Action putting the Orb away first.

Cantrips FTW.

Quick Draw is pretty worthless for wizards unless they MC Rogue and want to get off dagger throws in Surprise Rounds, or if they need to get an implement out for a Surprise Round. Note that QD only allows you to draw an item as part of an attack now, so you can't use it on potions.

I'll second Hide to replace it, if you're going to be using a Shield anyhow. IMHO, you'd probably be better off with Jack of All Trades or Focus (Arcana), particularly since Arcana checks allow you to detect magic now. I'm not sure how much that extra +1 AC is really worth it, unless you're going to be a front-line mage.

Colmarr
2008-08-13, 11:00 PM
So looking at these numbers, apparently a character in Hide, with Max Dex/Int has a higher AC than a Defender in Plate.. o.O
Base 1/2 Armor Ability Feat Enh Shield Total
Level Mod
Character in Hide:10 +15 +5 +10 +2 +6 +2 50

Character in Plate:10 +15 +14 N/A +2 +6 +2 49

So its only 1 point higher, but of course 1 point could mean you don't take a massive hit

True, but the light armour wearers have to burn more feats to get there.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-13, 11:03 PM
Note that, with Mage Hand, you can swap as a Minor Action already. Using Quick Draw instead means you have to drop the Orb unless you want to spend a Minor Action putting the Orb away first.

Cantrips FTW.

You're going to use your minor action each round sustaining Mage Hand just so you can have it drop the other implement as a free action? Why bother? You could have just used a minor action to draw the other implement anyway.


Note that QD only allows you to draw an item as part of an attack now, so you can't use it on potions.

Source?

Tengu_temp
2008-08-13, 11:05 PM
My problem is not with the option of wearing armor, but that the Leather Proficiency feat is just too good. The traditional robed wizard is penalized for his style choice. While there will always be role playing/optimization conflicts, this seems like a big change to the "standard" wizard, who will now wear leather.

Combine both into a badass longcoat (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BadassLongcoat)!

NPCMook
2008-08-13, 11:09 PM
True, but the light armour wearers have to burn more feats to get there.

This is true, and thus in my mind balances out

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-13, 11:27 PM
Source?

1) Mage Hand is a Minor Action to cast. No sustain needed:

Mage Hand Wizard Cantrip
You gesture toward an object nearby, and a spectral floating hand lifts the object into the air and moves it where you wish.
At-Will ✦ Arcane, Conjuration
Minor Action Ranged 5

and


If you are holding the object when you use this power, the hand can move the object into a pack, a pouch, a sheath, or a similar container and simultaneously move any one object carried or worn anywhere on your body into your hand.

2) Quick Draw: you're right there. Missed the bit at the end where it says "as part of the same action used to attack with the weapon or use the object."

So it is good for QD'ing potions. I'd say that the extra +2 Initiative from Improved Initiative is probably going to be more useful, since most healing comes from powers these days, instead of potions. But YMMV.

NPCMook
2008-08-13, 11:30 PM
1) Mage Hand is a Minor Action to cast. No sustain needed:


and



2) Quick Draw: you're right there. Missed the bit at the end where it says "as part of the same action used to attack with the weapon or use the object."

So it is good for QD'ing potions. I'd say that the extra +2 Initiative is probably going to be more useful, since most healing comes from powers these days, instead of potions. But YMMV.

Mage Hand Wizard Cantrip
You gesture toward an object nearby, and a spectral floating hand
lifts the object into the air and moves it where you wish.
At-Will ✦ Arcane, Conjuration
Minor Action Ranged 5
Effect: You conjure a spectral, floating hand in an unoccupied
square within range. The hand picks up, moves,
or manipulates an adjacent object weighing 20 pounds
or less and carries it up to 5 squares. If you are holding
the object when you use this power, the hand can move
the object into a pack, a pouch, a sheath, or a similar container
and simultaneously move any one object carried or
worn anywhere on your body into your hand.
As a move action, you can move the hand up to 5
squares. As a free action, you can cause the hand to drop
an object it is holding, and as a minor action, you can
cause the hand to pick up or manipulate a different object.
Sustain Minor: You can sustain the hand indefinitely.
Special: You can create only one hand at a time.

so yes, it actually IS a minor action to sustain it

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-13, 11:31 PM
so yes, it actually IS a minor action to sustain it

I mean, yes, but you don't have to sustain it to use the item-swapping ability, which is what we were talking about... right?

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-13, 11:38 PM
1) Mage Hand is a Minor Action to cast. No sustain needed:

Read to the bottom of Mage Hand where it says:

"Sustain Minor: You can sustain the hand indefinitely."

If you're going to say "but it says you can sustain it indefinitely," that's all well and good, but I can direct you to plenty of effects that remain in place until dismissed without needing any kind of sustaining effort, and none of them say "sustain minor" or, indeed, "sustain" anything.

Mage Hand is a "sustain minor," which means you need to spend a minor action each round to sustain it (and may do so indefinitely).

NPCMook
2008-08-13, 11:44 PM
So you're suggesting you use Mage hand, have it draw your additional Implement, while still holding an implement?

As far as I know Mage Hand can not make an attack and as WotC has said when using an implement its basically attacking with it. I had originally planned on taking Light Shield and using my implement with my Shield arm when casting spells while still wielding my Long Sword in my main-hand, so I'm guessing this would be the same case and wouldn't work =\


3. If you wield a light shield, you can also hold an item as well, although you canít attack with it. What if that item is an implement? Can you apply its implement bonus to your powers?

No. Using an implement to gain its bonuses is considered attacking with that implement. If you wield a light shield and hold an implement in the same hand, you would not get the implement enhancement bonus to your powers, but you would still benefit from any property that the implement has
Source (http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1396&p_created=1212604387&p_sid=QH*bVfbj&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX 3Jvd19jbnQ9MywzJnBfcHJvZHM9MCZwX2NhdHM9JnBfcHY9JnB fY3Y9JnBfc2VhcmNoX3R5cGU9YW5zd2Vycy5zZWFyY2hfbmwmc F9wYWdlPTEmcF9zZWFyY2hfdGV4dD1QbGF5ZXIncyBIYW5kYm9 vayBGQVE*&p_li=&p_topview=1)

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-13, 11:57 PM
Read to the bottom of Mage Hand where it says:

"Sustain Minor: You can sustain the hand indefinitely."

If you're going to say "but it says you can sustain it indefinitely," that's all well and good, but I can direct you to plenty of effects that remain in place until dismissed without needing any kind of sustaining effort, and none of them say "sustain minor" or, indeed, "sustain" anything.

Mage Hand is a "sustain minor," which means you need to spend a minor action each round to sustain it (and may do so indefinitely).

Or... you can cast it each turn you need it, because it's an at-will :smallconfused:

Why would you need to sustain it?

EDIT: In case it's not clear what I'm saying...

QD: I get my second implement in my off hand for free, when I use it. Why didn't I draw it earlier?

Mage Hand: My hands are full, but I need my orb. *Minor action swap* bam!

It seems to me that you'd only be using QD if you were spending a minor action every turn and you had a free hand, whereas you can use Mage Hand to swap an implement, should you need it, without the need for an extra hand at all.

And you didn't spend a Feat to get Mage Hand!

NPCMook
2008-08-14, 12:06 AM
So now what you are saying is instead of Sustaining it, you'd simply let it dismiss, drop the item its holding, spend an additional minor action picking up the dropped item, and then deciding whether or not to move or attack?:smallconfused:

And as I told you, Using your second implement from the mage hand doesn't work unless you decide to house rule it so

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-14, 12:09 AM
So now what you are saying is instead of Sustaining it, you'd simply let it dismiss, drop the item its holding, spend an additional minor action picking up the dropped item, and then deciding whether or not to move or attack?:smallconfused:

And as I told you, Using your second implement from the mage hand doesn't work unless you decide to house rule it so

:smallsigh: Read this again please:

If you are holding the object when you use this power, the hand can move the object into a pack, a pouch, a sheath, or a similar container and simultaneously move any one object carried or worn anywhere on your body into your hand.

That's a single minor action to do. There is no need to sustain it.

NPCMook
2008-08-14, 12:22 AM
I think I get it now:

1) You are holding a weapon and Implement A.
2) You cast Mage Hand as your Minor.
3) Spend an additonal Minor getting your Implement B.
4) You use Implement A's Special ability
5) Drop Implement A, while dropping Implement B into your now free hand.

Note: Quick Draw says nothing about Sheathing a weapon, thus you'd have to drop it, or again spend a minor action to Sheath it(but you are out of actions by this point)

If I'm just REALLY missing the point here, then would you please explain it step by step :smalleek:

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-14, 12:38 AM
Alright. Let's say you're holding a Wand and have an Orb in your pack.


If you are holding the object when you use this power, the hand can move the object into a pack, a pouch, a sheath, or a similar container and simultaneously move any one object carried or worn anywhere on your body into your hand.

Now reads, specifically


If you are holding the Wand when you cast Mage Hand, the Mage Hand can move the Wand into your pack and simultaneously move the Orb, carried or worn anywhere on your body (such as in a pack), into your hand.

That is a minor action. In order it would be:
1) Cast "Mage Hand" as a Minor action; as part of the casting, swap the Wand in your hand for the Orb in your pack. The Wand goes into your pack, and the Orb goes into your hand.
2) Use the Orb as a Standard Action with a spell.
3) At the end of your turn, do not sustain Mage Hand - it expires.

How's that?

EDIT: You are correct about QD. If you have one free hand, you can use that hand to QD out the other implement and use it. However, if your hands are full, you will have to drop whatever is in one hand to QD something else. Putting an item away is normally a Minor action.

NPCMook
2008-08-14, 12:45 AM
Okay, I believe I understand now, though I would probably ask WotC about it still

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-14, 12:47 AM
Alright. Let's say you're holding a Wand and have an Orb in your pack.



Now reads, specifically



That is a minor action. In order it would be:
1) Cast "Mage Hand" as a Minor action; as part of the casting, swap the Wand in your hand for the Orb in your pack. The Wand goes into your pack, and the Orb goes into your hand.
2) Use the Orb as a Standard Action with a spell.
3) At the end of your turn, do not sustain Mage Hand - it expires.

How's that?

Pretty snazzy, actually. My compliments.

You could do the same thing in terms of actions spent with Quick Draw (sheath wand as a minor action, draw and use orb as a single action), of course, but the hand trick still works for what you're trying to do. On the other hand, if you have an implement in one hand and nothing in the other, with Quick Draw, you can still draw and use a potion with just a single minor action for the whole thing, which I still think is just too nifty to pass up because being able to heal yourself when needed (or quickly administer a Potion of Recovery to a fallen ally in an emergency) makes you less of a drag on your allies in the same way that being harder to hit does.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-14, 12:48 AM
Okay, I believe I understand now, though I would probably ask WotC about it still

Yeah, I think I see where your confusion is. "The hand" mentioned in the power is the Mage Hand. "Your hand" is your physical hand, where you used to be holding the wand.

Honestly though, I think it's pretty straightforward. Unless... I'm not the only one who reads Mage Hand like that, right?

EDIT:
@Kiara - you're absolutely correct about the potion thing. I guess I think that QD is just not as useful for a Wizard as, say, Toughness or Improved Initiative would be. +5 HP is pretty good (gives you an extra surge too!) and +4 Initiative is a good way to make sure you get that Scorching Burst off before the Fighter wanders into the kill-field. :smallsmile:

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-14, 12:51 AM
Yeah, I think I see where your confusion is. "The hand" mentioned in the power is the Mage Hand. "Your hand" is your physical hand, where you used to be holding the wand.

Honestly though, I think it's pretty straightforward. Unless... I'm not the only one who reads Mage Hand like that, right?

No, I see it. I'd still take Quick Draw pretty much every time for potions and/or faster readying with one hand empty, but your trick is pretty clever.

Kurald Galain
2008-08-14, 03:16 AM
a must-have for wizards, along with Warrior of the Wild.
Is that because you suggest WOTW to any class? :smalltongue: It is very practical. I don't think there's any classes around with "int" attacks. I'm told the cleric multiclass is good because of the paragon paths you get, though (haven't quite gotten to that level yet).



From there the feat choices for a wizard get harder. I'm a fan of Toughness and Improved Initiative, personally.
I'd say Jack of All Trades is very nice.


Hide can be worth it though. You get armor specialization(hide) at paragon levels for an extra +1AC. If you're a staff wizard going into wizard of the spiral tower and other gishy stuff it usefull.
While +2 for one feat is worth it, +2 for two feats and ability scores you don't really want otherwise, doesn't sound all that good.


While there will always be role playing/optimization conflicts, this seems like a big change to the "standard" wizard, who will now wear leather.
IIRC wizards could wear leather in 2nd edition (since it doesn't contain metal). Also, battle sorcs and beguilers could do up to chainmail in 3rd.



None of the Multiclass feats are really that good as they stand now,
I beg to differ! Assuming you have the stat synergy to go along with it, the extra power from the warlock or wizard multiclass is useful. Extra damage from the rogue or ranger multiclass is never a bad thing.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-14, 03:36 AM
@Kiara - you're absolutely correct about the potion thing. I guess I think that QD is just not as useful for a Wizard as, say, Toughness or Improved Initiative would be. +5 HP is pretty good (gives you an extra surge too!) and +4 Initiative is a good way to make sure you get that Scorching Burst off before the Fighter wanders into the kill-field. :smallsmile:

Toughness is good, but it doesn't give you an extra healing surge. However, Durable gives you two extra and is certainly also worthwhile.

I consider them both nice to take, right along with Quick Draw. All three give much more mileage overall than a piddling +1 to eventually +3 (at the epic tier) to damage with just a select damage type (cold, necrotic, etc.). Improved Initiative ... eh. Maybe if I had nothing else left to spend a feat on. I'd take Skill Training (Perception) over Improved Initiative at that point and then still Alertness over it, too.

TwoBitWriter
2008-08-14, 08:54 AM
Wow, this thread really developed!

Anyhow, I have always focused more on roleplaying character development then effective builds. I can't help but still enjoy the basic robe-wearing wizard. But the idea of wearing leather armor seems to make sense too. I guess robes are for the old wizards...

"Those young whippersnappers and their not wanting to get skewered by a goblin spear! In my day we had a 10 AC! And we had to re-memorize all our spells, and Detect Magic wasn't a skill check! Thats right, you had to give up a use of magic missile if you wanted to know that magic was around!"

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-14, 12:00 PM
Toughness is good, but it doesn't give you an extra healing surge. However, Durable gives you two extra and is certainly also worthwhile.

Ah yes. What I meant to say is that it improves your Healing Surge value by one, in addition to giving you 5 HP.

I think you're underestimating Improved Initiative for wizards. Particularly for controller wizards, the ability to drop a zone in the midst of your enemies before they have a chance to mix it up with your friends can really lock them down. Additionally, if you drop it on them before they move, you get a free round of extra effect at the start of their turn.

Now, if you're the eyes & ears for the party (quite possible with Orb Wizards) then training Perception (by which I mean MC Ranger :smalltongue:) is extremely helpful. Alertness is OK, but highly situational (unless your DM sends ambushes at you all the time).

So generically, I'd say:
Leather Armor > Toughness > Improved Initiative > Perception > Alertness > Quick Draw (which requires DEX 13)

Light Shield is nice, if you're going to invest in the STR for it - I'd put it above Toughness then.

Oh, and for armor, if you're going to get Light Shield, then I'd say aim to get Hide at level 10 and Hide Specialization at level 11. That's +4 AC (+5 with Shield) and another class of armor open to you. All you need to get that is to have STR 13 and CON 14 by level 10. Shield Specialization, on the other hand, requires DEX 15, which will make your build way too MAD if you already have a Light Shield.

Saph
2008-08-14, 01:02 PM
So generically, I'd say:
Leather Armor > Toughness > Improved Initiative > Perception > Alertness > Quick Draw (which requires DEX 13)

I'd mostly agree. However, the only Heroic-tier feats I'd keep would be Leather, Toughness, Imp Int, and Perception. I'd retrain the other two as soon as I got into Paragon, since there are a bunch of nice Wizard Paragon feats, like Second Implement Mastery, Spell Focus, Danger Sense, and a few others. If you've got Thunderwave (which I think most wizards should), then Resounding Thunder + Arcane Reach is excellent too.

- Saph

TwoBitWriter
2008-08-14, 01:07 PM
If you've got Thunderwave (which I think most wizards should), then Resounding Thunder + Arcane Reach is excellent too.
- Saph

I always go for Magic Missile and Scorching Burst... I see Thunderwave as a Human-granted power... (aka tertiary choice...)

Which one do you think is more useful though? I can definitely see the benefits of being able to push away nearby foes when you are as squishy as a wizard, but being able to explodinate at will and at range seems overall to be a better choice...

Saph
2008-08-14, 01:34 PM
I always go for Magic Missile and Scorching Burst... I see Thunderwave as a Human-granted power... (aka tertiary choice...)

Which one do you think is more useful though? I can definitely see the benefits of being able to push away nearby foes when you are as squishy as a wizard, but being able to explodinate at will and at range seems overall to be a better choice...

I always go for Human, so I can get Scorching Burst, Thunderwave, and a single-target power all together. :)

But if I had to pick two, I'd probably take Thunderwave over Scorching Burst, simply because that way you aren't paralysed if a monster gets too close. Ranged powers provoke AoO's; close blast powers like Thunderwave don't. Being able to push away enemies that rush you is also very useful.

If you take Icy Terrain as your encounter power you still have a ranged burst capability as well.

- Saph

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-15, 12:24 AM
I always go for Human, so I can get Scorching Burst, Thunderwave, and a single-target power all together. :)

But if I had to pick two, I'd probably take Thunderwave over Scorching Burst, simply because that way you aren't paralysed if a monster gets too close. Ranged powers provoke AoO's; close blast powers like Thunderwave don't. Being able to push away enemies that rush you is also very useful.

If you take Icy Terrain as your encounter power you still have a ranged burst capability as well.

- Saph

You can also make an entertaining Dwarven Staff Mage who uses Scorching Burst and Thunderwave. Scorching Burst to clear out the minions and he can scoot up to Thunderwave some baddies into flanking between your Fighter & Rogue, if need be. Sure, he doesn't get the nice striker-y power, but he's a blast :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Oh and Solid Sound is very nice for this guy at Paragon. Arcane Reach is kind of out of his range, but it might be worthwhile to try and squeeze it in. The Orb Variant of the Dwarven Blastermage can get Reach pretty easily.

Colmarr
2008-08-15, 01:07 AM
You can also make an entertaining Dwarven Staff Mage who uses Scorching Burst and Thunderwave.

Without having had the opportunity to see this in action for more than 1 combat (our PCs are in flux at the moment), I feel that not having a single-target attack spell is seriously questionable.

Although 4e combat encourages movement, in my limited experience a 3x3 square is often too big to be used either (1) without hitting one or more allies, or (2) only affecting 1 enemy, in which case you would have had higher damage from Magic Missile or Cloud of Daggers.

What's your experience?

TwoBitWriter
2008-08-15, 07:39 AM
Is Cloud of Daggers even really useful? I only see its use when used by an orb Wizard or when you are needing to cover a 5' wide tunnel, so that enemies have to move through the cloud.

Am I just reading this wrong? I just think the effects are a bit limited compared to other Wizard powers...

hamishspence
2008-08-15, 07:40 AM
more useful with buddies that can slide enemies around, and as a minion-killer.

fractic
2008-08-15, 07:46 AM
It also outdamages magic missile with even a little bit of wis because it also does damage on a miss.

Saph
2008-08-15, 07:59 AM
Is Cloud of Daggers even really useful? I only see its use when used by an orb Wizard or when you are needing to cover a 5' wide tunnel, so that enemies have to move through the cloud.

Am I just reading this wrong? I just think the effects are a bit limited compared to other Wizard powers...

It's mostly a damage power only. As a control power it's a washout; 2-3 damage is not going to scare off enemies, it's hardly worth your allies going to the trouble of sliding an enemy through it, and unless you're fighting in a 5-foot wide corridor monsters can just walk around it.

I don't really like it, but that's because I think the extra trouble it takes to track a damaging square on the battlefield each turn is too much of a nuisance. It's like the Dodge feat in 3.5.

- Saph

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-15, 12:56 PM
Without having had the opportunity to see this in action for more than 1 combat (our PCs are in flux at the moment), I feel that not having a single-target attack spell is seriously questionable.

Although 4e combat encourages movement, in my limited experience a 3x3 square is often too big to be used either (1) without hitting one or more allies, or (2) only affecting 1 enemy, in which case you would have had higher damage from Magic Missile or Cloud of Daggers.

What's your experience?

Well, I've not had much experience either, but you are mostly correct. The way this build works well is, first of all, it can usually smack several targets in the first round of combat (a good way to reduce minions) and once the enemies move up close, Thunderwave is an excellent baddy-maneuvering device (Push 3!) which can help you double on Defender Duty as well as breaking up certain baddy powers (Hobgoblins, for one :smallyuk:).

I didn't say it was an optimal build, but it is certainly a fun one. :smallbiggrin:

TwoBitWriter
2008-08-15, 01:05 PM
Thats why I think Humans make the best wizards, having that third At-Will spell gives you a bunch of versatility in combat because you can have your "Striker-Spell" (Ray of Frost or Magic Missile,) your "Push Spell" (Thunderwave,) and your "Burninate" Spell (Scorching Burst.)

Really, thats what its all about for me...

wodan46
2008-08-15, 02:36 PM
Cloud of Daggers autokills minions and deals high damage to anything else. Also, remember that the Orb power works with Ray of Frost, Cloud of Daggers, and about half the dailies, which means that at level 1, you have nothing better to do with the Orb power outside that one time you cast sleep.

The extra damage feats for a Wizard are good when you remember that the Wizard is by far the most likely to hit multiple targets with their attacks.

Adding +3 damage to Scorching Burst is pretty good, I'd say, especially when you hit 2-3 targets with it. The damage will add up.

Granted, you should only go that route if your party is lacking a Striker or is otherwise weak on the damage side, and needs someone to soften up the targets extra tender.

Saph
2008-08-15, 03:25 PM
The extra damage feats for a Wizard are good when you remember that the Wizard is by far the most likely to hit multiple targets with their attacks.

They're not so good when you remember that practically every wizard attack uses a different damage type. Boosting the damage of your Thunderwave is one feat. Boosting the damage of your Scorching Burst is another. Boosting the damage of Icy Terrain/Chill Strike is a third. That's three separate feats to do +1 damage on your attacks.

If you consider that Weapon Focus gives +1 damage to all a fighter's attacks for just one feat, instead of three, and still isn't a must-have by any means, you can see what a bad deal the wizard damage boosts are.

- Saph

TwoBitWriter
2008-08-15, 03:34 PM
But I suppose its the closest thing we have to Wizard Specialization at the moment...