OOTS #584 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Lira]

Holy... :smalleek:

That's not good.

[ThePhantom]

V looks like a zombie and they have a huge demon on their hands. Things are not looking good.

[hamishspence]

Well, looks like Therkla's loyalty to Kubota is surprisingly high.

[Occasional Sage]

"Good, not dumb" needs to be a phrase used more often.

Also, V's cynicism needs to communicate more with V's foresight.

[Great Dane]

V's ending quote is the funniest line I've read in a long time. Actual good-quality wit delivered through metaphor, not some cheesy one-liner (which normally ends up making me smile anyway, FYI).

[Gopher]

Wow V looks awful.

Good to know the Order can still count on Elan's knowledge of genre conventions.

[Fitzclowningham]

At least we know Therkla's Lawful now.

Oh, and yikes!

Hope V still has a Dismissal scroll left...

[Spiryt]

Haha, nice. That's the plot twist!

However overally, there is a bit too much "talking heads" here.

Vaarsuvius looks really bad :smalleek:

[Mauve Shirt]

Oh damn! Elan wins again with his knowledge of dramatic conventions!
I love V's punchline. :smallbiggrin:

[Sneak]

Well, looks like Therkla's loyalty to Kubota is surprisingly high.

Well, he did take her in and act as a mentor to her. It's only to be expected.

V, however, looks terrible. S/he seems to be getting progressively worse...

[AlterForm]

Oh, probability. How we love you. :smallwink:

[hamishspence]

last time I saw features like that was in

SOD. Xykon's face, covered with cracks, just before Lich transformation. Howeevr V seems to have been deteriorating much more slowly.

[pasko77]

Terry pratchett's law of probability at workt here :)

[Mythlor]

Sweet, oh how the dice have turned on many an adventuring party to make it a short campaign. Brings up good memories... for myself the Dungeon Master, not for the PCs.

Rich, excellent work!

[teratorn]

Ok, they'll need ninja-girl to take care of that...

[Diddgery]

So Lien is good, and also not dumb. That's nice! I'm rather worried about V's current state, though.

I have a feeling this is going to end.. awesomely. Had a feeling that there'd be a big fight sometime soon, and this definitely falls into the category of "big fight."

Nice lampshade hanging on the "one-in-a-million" thing.

[hamishspence]

Loyalty to someone even when its obviously putting you at a major disadvantage is, I think, more associated with LE than CE (although exceptions may exist)

[UglyPanda]

Dwarven Ice-T...awesome.

[Belkar Rocks]

Dang, V is starting to look bad! Poor guygal. I hope they make contact soon just so V can get some rest.

[Lord_Butters_I]

Hmm, and how are they going to kill a balor? I predict a lot of running and possably a "you shall not pass" line from V.

[Jokerz]

I don't think that even Therkala can help them with that... Sail away and hope that it can't swim? I also love the discreet little *Pop!* noise. I would think that the air displacement would be more of a bang, but the pop made me giggle a bit... good one, Giant.

[Kyeudo]

I suspect someone introduced the Giant to TvTropes (http://www.tvtropes.org).

[Rumex]

Terry pratchett's law of probability at workt here :)

Million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten. :)

Figures that V would stand around talking rather than taking action. That elven/wizardly arrogance can be a problem, sometimes.

[Lord_Butters_I]

I suspect someone introduced the Giant to TvTropes (http://www.tvtropes.org).

...Anyone who's spent more than 5 minutes on this board has been linked to that site a minimum of 83 times.

[SteveMB]

Moral: When your opponent is in a summoning trance, interrupt first and worry about whether it was really necessary later.

[Belkar Rocks]

Moral: When your opponent is in a summoning trance, interrupt first and worry about whether it was really necessary later.Word.

Man, if only Belkar had been there. If anybody personifies stab first, think about it later ...

[SlightlyEvil]

It's the little things that make this comic awesome. Like the little *pop* in the panel where the gigantic devil is summoned. Also, I'm surprised at Therkla's reaction (i.e. refusing to testify against Kubota), but frankly it's far more realistic than the hundreds of "sympathetic villain abandons own side at the drop of a hat" plots that have come before in other works. V's line at the end is just awesome.

As stated by others, my first reaction after finishing a new strip is to go over to TvTropes and add an example or two from the strip.

[hamishspence]

In addition to Sabine being Not a Normal Succubus, Qaar is Not a Normal Imp either. Last I checked, imps couldn't summon balors.

While rules always get chucked if they conflict with Funny, might Qaar be a Imp Wizard? Imp, for fairly low LA, Wizard for summoning. Or, maybe, a powerful fiend disguised as an imp. Normally it needs Gate to Call Balors, and Qaar was described as Summoning rather than calling (SoD showed us what Gate looked like)
However, OOTS sometimes blurs Summoning/Calling distinctions.

So, maybe Qaar is simply a Unique Imp, I'm not sure.

[Jeivar]

Eep . . .

. . . though on the bright side, winning this fight just might give Vaarsuvius that last boost needed.

I wonder where Therkla's story will go after this point. I seriously doubt she'll just drop off the stage, but what are the options, beside her sitting in a brig for the rest of the voyage? Slipping away during the fight and going back to Kubota? Strike out on her own, to return in some capacity later on?

I gotta say, subplot about side characters tend to really draw me in, since they're much more likely to be killed off than main characters. :smalleek:

PS: Elan's line on the first panel is my new favorite! :smallbiggrin:

[dogmac]

Yeah, Lien, you might need all twelve gods to deal with that one.

Therkla just gets cooler, in my opinion. I approve of that kind of loyalty.

And yes, "Good, not dumb". Think I might make that my subheading on various things for the day :smallbiggrin:

[Spiryt]

Hmm, and how are they going to kill a balor? I predict a lot of running and possably a "you shall not pass" line from V.

If standard Blood War mythology has something to say here, it can't be a Balor. And since there are phrases like "another devil" it seems that indeed there is a difference.

I smell Pratchett, anyway!

[Vargtass]

Hmm, and how are they going to kill a balor? I predict a lot of running and possably a "you shall not pass" line from V.

Would that qualify as the right four words?

[chiasaur11]

I suspect someone introduced the Giant to TvTropes (http://www.tvtropes.org).

You didn't guess it back at the lampshade?

[teratorn]

Hmm, and how are they going to kill a balor? I predict a lot of running and possably a "you shall not pass" line from V.

Isn't that guy a bit too big for a balor? Balors are 3,5 meter tall and about 2 tons in weight. This guys is what, 35 meters tall?

[Aerysil]

No fair. I don't have a mini that big.

* Searches through his GI Joe collection *

By the way, people, it would be a Pit Fiend, not a Balor! * shakes fist *

[Jeivar]

Would that qualify as the right four words?

Vargtass . . . you just might be onto something there.

Anyway, with something like this on their hands, I'm pretty sure this will mark the end of the fleet arc. The gang now has a terrifying enemy to deal with, and might actually put an end to Kubota right after escaping the island, both of which make for a fine way to move onto the next part of the story. Especially since Haley and Celia might actually make some progress with Roy's corpse soon.

[Shadowcaller]

Well my guess is that its a Pit Fiend (another type of devil) but it appears much larger then I thought they were.

[hamishspence]

D&D monsters can be advanced. Or it could be a Demon Lord. Imps in early D&D could be Chaotic as well as Lawful (R A Salvatore's Druzil was an imp from the Abyss)

If we go with Qaar being Lawful, not Chaotic, it could be a pit fiend. epic handbook also has infernals, but they aren't exactly fair at this level (but who said life was fair)

Whatever it was, Qaar might be more than he seems if he can summon it.

[Spiryt]

Isn't that guy a bit too big for a balor? Balors are 3,5 meter tall and about 2 tons in weight. This guys is what, 35 meters tall?

More like 50 :smalleek: Even in OotS very simple perspective he's way taller than trees.

Besides, devil.

I guess it's just some random "super scary" devil. OotS don't have to follow Planescape rules after all.

[FoE]

V looks like a zombie and they have a huge demon on their hands. Things are not looking good.

Huge DEVIL. Huge DEVIL. Don't associate us with that loser Qar. :smallannoyed:

"Once again, Probability proves itself willing to sneak into a back alley and service Drama as would a copper-piece harlot."

Nice imagery there, Rich. :smallamused:

[Muz]

Here's hoping someone's got a
scroll of Banishment!
Did that even exist in 3rd edition? I'm still living back here in 2nd. :smallwink:

[teratorn]

Well my guess is that its a Pit Fiend (another type of devil) but it appears much larger then I thought they were.

Yep, too big, a pit fiend is also about 3.5 meters tall and has big wings (they wrap them around their bodies).

So, short wings and much bigger...

[ShiningEntity]

V hasn't slept in ages and is facing a huge demon.

At least the odds aren't totally against the demon :smallbiggrin:

[silvadel]

Qaar will owe a lot to the Devil Lord. Might be like out of the frying pan and into the fire when he takes him for a slave for the next few milleneum for his help.

As for "Good not Dumb" I don't buy it in this case -- being that heavy handed with Therkla is Dumb.

[baerdith]

So, what's up with V's wrinkles and whatever thse lines are?? I would have figured her/his stress would have dropped after a bit of rest??

[dragongirl13]

And once again, a brilliant comic. I love the thing about one-in-a-million chances... that really does seem to happen a lot in stories. Drama does seem to supersede probability in such occasions...

And V's comments? Absolutely hilarious. :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

4th ed orcus is Gargantuan, but apart from that Big size and demons/devils generally do not go together. the biggest demons (ghour, goristro) when upgrade reach colossal (one goristro in FC1 is reputed to be 200 ft tall) but do not have wings. Devils don't come in that size, usually, either. Homebrew fiend?

[ref]

OK, They're in trouble. Elan may be generally ignorant, but when it comes to genre conventions, he's THE Authority. When will they learn?

And Vaarsuvius, please, take a trance. You need it, badly.

Lien is cool. And Therkla is loyal, you can't deny that.

[hamishspence]

I wonder If lien will be a rival of O-Chuls for Really Cool Paladin slot. I remember a worrying number of O-chul threads, Lien threads might be fun for a while but not if they reach O-chul levels.

[dish]

I suspect someone introduced the Giant to TvTropes (http://www.tvtropes.org).

Surely the Giant demonstrated his mastery of plot conventions long before the wiki was even dreamt of?

[wodan46]

That thing has got to be WAY above what the characters are capable of dealing with. It could probably give Xykon or even MiTd a run for its money.

Who wants to bet that Therkla will be willing to help them win in return for freedom? Or that Elan will simply release Therkla to do the same

[WarriorTribble]

Most hilarious. Pretty good chance that V is wrong imo. Personally, I'd say the demonic overlords allowed a hugass monster to be summoned to remove the mortals attempting to push their agenda on the Snarl.

I think I'll like Therkla alot more, if it didn't feel like she's a reject character from Naruto.

EDIT: Do the OotS even have a vague chance of running away from that thing, let alone beating it? :smalleek:

[Ruduen]

Yeah, we have absolutely no idea what that summon's supposed to be, since the largest devil, the pit fiend, is only 12 feet tall, and demons and devils aren't to be mixed up. Even a balor's about that height, though it weighs a lot more for some unknown reason. So, it's fair to say that it's homebrew. The rule for summoning's probably homebrew as well. It's obviously safe to say that Qarr is a devil by now, but he's not really following any of the known devils that exist, so we'll be dealing with something else original here as well, as far as I can tell.

And probability likes to do that. If you thought 1/20 was unlikely...

[Austran]

Soooo.... a Pit Fiend I take it?:smalleek:

[hamishspence]

Infernal can be both CE or LE outsider, but even that, powerful as it is, is Large, not Huge or larger, without advancement. So the big Whatzit is either an advanced fiend, an archfiend (Souped up Duke of Hell?), or a completely new fiend.

[Lyinginbedmon]

I realise there are bigger issues right now but V really needs to get some sleep, s/he's not looking good at all right now. At this right I wouldn't be entirely suprised if s/he ends up Undead before the trip is over.

[Mazar]

All they have to do is come up with a plan that has a one-in-a-million chance of success. Genre conventions cut both ways.

[Ceric]

Terry pratchett's law of probability at workt here :)

Wait, V said it wasn't precisely a one-in-a-million chance. So it shouldn't have worked, then? Like in Guards! Guards!

And Vaarsuvius looks awful now. That's not just lack of trance, that's lack of basic hygiene. :smalleek:

[SoC175]

If standard Blood War mythology has something to say here, it can't be a Balor. And since there are phrases like "another devil" it seems that indeed there is a difference.

I smell Pratchett, anyway!
It's a pit fiend, they and balors look very similar

[xyzzy]

Well, the good news is, I'd say they have about a one in a million shot of winning this one.

Vaarsuvius looks terrible. That is bad. Loved "Law and Order: Special Encounters Unit".

[Tilian]

Lien and Therkla are my OTP now.

Someone had to kick it off. :smallbiggrin:

[plover]

He totally stole that from Guards! Guards!

[Zordrath]

Holy... oO

I have no idea how the OOTS might be able to beat that... they won't be able to run away, the fiend is just too big for that (and it has wings, too), so there will be some creativity required...

Important plot points here are obviously:

- V's state is continually getting worse. This is beyond simple exhaustion, it must lead to something, though I have no idea at the moment what exactly will happen.

- I suspected this before, but Quarr must have a lot more power than everybody estimated. Maybe he is himself a larger demon, only in disguise?

[bentheiii]

I don't know if anyone's noticed- but that thing has a hand the size of a boat. even the tarrasque can't make that size:smalleek:! it's probobly an illusion or somthing like that but nothing an imp can summon in about 2 rounds (i mean how long did it take?:smallconfused:)

plus, I don't think quarr is that powerful:
1. if he had some decent hit dice he wouldn't be afraid of that spear on panel 3
2. if he did have the power to do so, he would have sunk their ship a long time ago

[appending_doom]

That thing has got to be WAY above what the characters are capable of dealing with. It could probably give Xykon or even MiTd a run for its money.

Who wants to bet that Therkla will be willing to help them win in return for freedom? Or that Elan will simply release Therkla to do the same

I suspect that this is a fair idea, but Elan freeing her without preconditions is much more likely. Recall: "I'm the Good Twin, not the Neutral Twin".

[appending_doom]

As for "Good not Dumb" I don't buy it in this case -- being that heavy handed with Therkla is Dumb.

Seconded. I read this comic very much as a continuation of the "Paladins are painfully rigid in ways that screw the bigger picture" theme that the comic touches on fairly regularly.

[tribble]

Would that qualify as the right four words?

Holy. Crap. that just gave me shivers. of course, if its to save Elan,Lien,Hinjo,etc., it wouldnt be for all the wrong reasons.

[Ascension]

This is awesome.

Haley's still my favorite character, but Elan just keeps getting more awesome.

I love Lien in this strip.

And V's last line is classic. :smallbiggrin:

[d'Bwobsling]

What kind of demon is that?

[Steveio]

If I had to make a guess, I'd say it's a gargantuan one.

[Spiryt]

What kind of demon is that?

Better check the whole thread - theories about what it could be are already here.

Anyway, it looks way too big for any D&D.

It rather looks like Classic Red Big Horned Thing (TM). Have TV Tropes anything about it?

[imp_fireball]

Hurray, first epic encounter!

Raaaawr... that's funny.



Anyway, it looks way too big for any D&D.


D&D's not entirely for *******, I thought! And 'collosol' usually often implies 'over 100' tall'.

[Trizap]

aaaaaaaaaaah, we can always count on genre savvy Elan.

now whats going to happen? probably Elan saving the day through some genre savvyness regarding giant monsters.

[SirSigfried]

Is it just me or does V look like a Sith Lord.... Perhaps some of you aspiring artists could make that, into one heck of an avatar.

[ref]

what's an OTP?

[Werewindlefr]

Isn't that guy a bit too big for a balor? Balors are 3,5 meter tall and about 2 tons in weight. This guys is what, 35 meters tall?An homebrewed Duke of Hell?

[MyrddinDerwydd]

Oh error margins, how I love thee. V need to take a statistics class! 10% is a big margin!:smallredface:

[NENAD]

I've certainly been wrong before (I was wrong about Hinjo giving Therkla a fair shake; Lawful Stupid where I least expected it), but I don't think a demon that big wouldn't be accompanied by something plot significant.

On the other hand, the odds of a strip 600 roysurrection just got blown out of the water.

[Sir_Norbert]

When were they ever more than negligible?


Figures that V would stand around talking rather than taking action. That elven/wizardly arrogance can be a problem, sometimes.
Talking is a free action, don't forget :P

[wzeller]

I'm thinking that's Quarr's big brother or mother or some other such relation, which he called for help buyt who will just be furious with him for not showing up at a recent family reunion or somesuchthing. It'll look around with disdain at the puny humanoids, make a snarky remark about Quarr not even being able to hold his own against such puny things, and then forcefully take Quarr home.

[Halvormerlinaky]

V, however, looks terrible. S/he seems to be getting progressively worse...

"Seems?" You're one of those types who would say, "Those nuclear explosions seem kinda close," aren't you? V has been getting worse every strip s/he's been in for about 100 (not counting appearances).

Now V looks like s/he is a lich, save for the fact that s/he is still alive, as far as we know. Please, for the love of Thor, someone sneak attack V with a sap and knock V out. S/he really needs some down time.

[Muz]

He totally stole that from Guards! Guards!

Not necessarily. It IS possible for the same idea to come out of two separate places. (What's Guards! Guards! ?)

[appending_doom]

someone sneak attack V with a sap and knock V out. S/he really needs some down time.

That brings up an interesting question. How does unconsciousness interact with elves, who do not sleep? I know unconsciousness is not the same thing as sleep, but one can be tired into unconsciousness, at which point one will sleep until one recovers some energy.

Elves do not appear to have this fail-safe, unless really tired elves have a tendency to "trance out". Which both makes sense and is really funny.

[Abjurer]

Now V looks like s/he is a lich, save for the fact that s/he is still alive, as far as we know. Please, for the love of Thor, someone sneak attack V with a sap and knock V out. S/he really needs some down time.

Plus then it proves that Vaarsuvius is still sucseptible to both nonlethal damage and unconsciousness, and is therefore not undead.

EDIT: haha, ninja'd. I thought of the same thing. But elves are still sucseptible to unconsciousness, from accumulated nonlethal damage if nothing else.

[chiasaur11]

Not necessarily. It IS possible for the same idea to come out of two separate places. (What's Guards! Guards! ?)

Terry Pratchett's first book in the discworld subseries starring Sam Vimes, Carrot Ironfoundson, and the rest of the city's night watch.

Also: Really good. You should read it.

And it's hard not to cover ground Pratchett has covered. Man writes a lot.

[Chronicled]

1) It would be great if the giant devil was an illusion.
2) It would be great if V's lack of sleep finally caught up, in the middle of fighting the devil. Narcoleptic characters ftw!
3) V's last line? Was great.

[Mastikator]

..What the? How are they supposed to survive that thing without the use of deus ex-machina?

[drgrumpus]

And, whatever demon it is, the worst part is:

They will not get a single experience point for defeating it (if they do).

PCs don't get XP for summoned creatures: It is considered a part of the power of the original monster.

In this particular case here, I know I'd be...how shall I say? "Put out."

[holywhippet]

..What the? How are they supposed to survive that thing without the use of deus ex-machina?

This is a webcomic, everything is deus ex-machina. You don't think the Giant rolls dice to see if the characters live or die do you?

I'm thinking this stems back to Sabine, she told the evil powers about the gates - either Quarr was sent as part of that, or one of the higher level devil was waiting for a chance to answer a call to visit that world.

Note that imps don't actually have the power to summon in other devils by core rules from what I can see on the SRD.

Under core rules, summoned creatures vanish after an hour so they might be best served by simply running. Of course, that isn't good news for the local orc tribe. (Correction, it looks like they aren't actually on Orc island anymore judging from their conversation.)

If it comes to fighting, the order and their allies might have a chance. It depends on how many HP the devil has.

[Gamerlord]

:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek: THAT THING IS HUGE!

[xopher.tm]

Dwarven Ice-T...awesome.

Quoting for truth.

[omicron1]

I like the way V's tree is as shriveled as he is.

[David Argall]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Butters_I
Hmm, and how are they going to kill a balor? I predict a lot of running and possably a "you shall not pass" line from V.


Would that qualify as the right four words
Well, it fits the technical situation. V is so badly in need of sleep that he could have entirely the wrong reasons for her actions, and while "you shall not pass" would not do, a variation on it would work.
Now a problem is that this is just a little devil. It may look big to the PCs, but Thor takes it out with a finger flick, and the Snarl is presumed to be able to do the same to Thor. So it isn't obvious how V can get ultimate power from such a petty source. This is why many of us have assumed this would involve some dealing with the Snarl. [Of course, Marvel Comics is not along in confusing "infinite" with "lots and lots", and so this may be the time.]

One idea might be that V gets some crazy idea and challenges the devil, who kills him easily. However, due to some fluke, this gives her infinite power and he casually banishes the devil as she grows to, and past, godhood. Reaching the point where the entire world is unimportant, he recalls the desire to find Haley and Roy. She of course easily finds them, but when he tries to rescue them, she finds he is just too powerful. She can't do anything without destroying the world from the sheer amount of power he will use. So she has to abandon all his power to return to a level where she can actually help Roy. He wakes at former power, knowing little more than Haley is in Greysky. The others of course may not believe her.



Quote:
Originally Posted by silvadel
As for "Good not Dumb" I don't buy it in this case -- being that heavy handed with Therkla is Dumb.

Seconded. I read this comic very much as a continuation of the "Paladins are painfully rigid in ways that screw the bigger picture" theme that the comic touches on fairly regularly.
The law does not forgive just because you say you are sorry. Perfectly sensible Hinjo treats Therkla this way.

[The Tygre]

Hmm...So that's an OotS Pit Fiend. Freakin' A man! Freakin' AWE-SOME!

[DrewDaGreek]

I must say, I loved V's last line!

[Holammer]

WoW, I like wordy strips but today's strip almost had too many speech balloons for comfort! :smallamused:
V needs some rest or he/she will buy it before Belkar does.

[ericgrau]

V: "Hold on now, we can be reasonable, no need to fight..."

V's 4 words: "Let's make a deal."
Right being, right time, all the wrong reasons.

J/K.

[elynnia]

Well, if such an occurrence was a virtual impossibility it logically must be a finite improbability. =P

Vaarsuvius should be more in touch with the laws of improbability!

[thevorpalbunny]

Not necessarily. It IS possible for the same idea to come out of two separate places. (What's Guards! Guards! ?)

He did all but quote the scene, not that anyone will hold it against him. The relevant words were "Million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten"

So the chances of The Giant having read Guards! Guards! are a million to one.

Also, it's perfectly permissible to win by deus ex machina when your enemy is a diabolus ex machina

[Traker]

That demon will be hard to beat though the imp will bite it first. I wonder who be abull to kill it. I wonder if v can desmis it? she did it with the golems. though that was with scrolls.:vaarsuvius::elan::haley:

[eilandesq]

No problem--this fight will be easy.

It's obviously the devil from the cover of the 1st edition AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide [someone took his sword and naked girl away]. We know from past strips that pre-3rd edition monsters don't have Will saves (and by inference don't have Reflex or Fortitude saves either--maybe not even SR!). V and Durkon pounding it with unresisted damage/control effects/other nastiness for the win!:smallbiggrin:

[Enlong]

Well, if such an occurrence was a virtual impossibility it logically must be a finite improbability. =P

Vaarsuvius should be more in touch with the laws of improbability!

So all Qar needed to do was find out just how improbable it was, punch that into the Finite Improbability Engine, give it a cup of tea, and turn it on!

[Jayabalard]

He totally stole that from Guards! Guards!Actually Pratchett Refenced that several times, and Guards! Guards! wasn't the first. The first one that I recall reading (well, hearing, read by Nigel Planer) was in the introduction of Mort (the 4th book but the first that I listened to):


Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.

it also appears in Discworld Noir (video game)


Not necessarily. It IS possible for the same idea to come out of two separate places. (What's Guards! Guards! ?)I find that highly unlikely. I'd be shocked if this wasn't a nod at Pratchett.

[Lord Seth]

It's troperiffic! It spoofs both Good Is Dumb (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoodIsDumb) AND Million To One Chance (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MillionToOneChance)
(and MAN, do people work fast to put examples of Order of the Stick on TV Tropes, this is already listed in Million To One Chance)

[Blaznak]

Oooh! That's a big one...

[Siosilvar]

...Anyone who's spent more than 5 minutes on this board has been linked to that site a minimum of 83 times.
Correction; 84 times.

Here's hoping someone's got a
scroll of Banishment!
Did that even exist in 3rd edition? I'm still living back here in 2nd. :smallwink:
Yes, but it's called Dismissal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dismissal.htm) now. See here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0424.html)

So all Qar needed to do was find out just how improbable it was, punch that into the Infinite Improbability Engine, give it a cup of tea, and turn it on!
Fixed.

No problem--this fight will be easy.

It's obviously the devil from the cover of the 1st edition AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide [someone took his sword and naked girl away]. We know from past strips that pre-3rd edition monsters don't have Will saves (and by inference don't have Reflex or Fortitude saves either--maybe not even SR!). V and Durkon pounding it with unresisted damage/control effects/other nastiness for the win!:smallbiggrin:
They don't have Reflex or Fortitude saves, but perhaps it can save vs. spells for half damage.

Also, that is one tiny "pop" for such a gigantic devil.

[AlexanderRM]

Well... this turned out to be... somewhat longer than expected.



See? Why does nobody ever listen to me when I point out blindingly obvious evidence that the Giant DOES NOT CARE WHATSOEVER about the official rules if they don't suit him? WHY? See, this is the most obvious evidence of that so far: none of the... type of devil with the summoning ability are able to summon anything stronger than themself. That's assuming that imps actually HAVE that ability.



V looks like a zombie and they have a huge demon on their hands. Things are not looking good.
On a similar note, can anyone explain to me how V can still cast spells using the official rules? Ooh... I know! :vaarsuvius: is a/an [insert random epileptic tree theory here]!




Oh, and yikes!

Hope V still has a Dismissal scroll left...
No, that would render this whole thing pointless, therefore, V no longer has a dismissal scroll left. It's the same thing as with the explanation of why that thing was summoned.



And, whatever demon it is, the worst part is:

They will not get a single experience point for defeating it (if they do).

PCs don't get XP for summoned creatures: It is considered a part of the power of the original monster.

In this particular case here, I know I'd be...how shall I say? "Put out."
Which is why a devil can't summon anything stronger than itself in the normal rules. Normal rules do not apply, therefore, they might or might not get XP for it, depending on whether the giant would prefer to have a short complaint about "unfair" rules that makes perfect sense if you use all the related rule or to have everyone there gain very large amounts of XP (well, with 6-7 of them, it might not be that much). Alternatively, he could have a complaint about not gaining XP for killing something so powerful it shouldn't have gotten into the game except as a deliberate attempt by the DM to kill a player.
There's also the factor of whether the Giant actually remembers all the rules.



No problem--this fight will be easy.

It's obviously the devil from the cover of the 1st edition AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide [someone took his sword and naked girl away]. We know from past strips that pre-3rd edition monsters don't have Will saves (and by inference don't have Reflex or Fortitude saves either--maybe not even SR!). V and Durkon pounding it with unresisted damage/control effects/other nastiness for the win!:smallbiggrin:

Now that is probably the best way they could possibly defeat it. Except perhaps anything with a million-to-one chance of success.
Elan should search for a spell with a million-to-one chance of instantly defeating (method of defeat chosen when cast) any number of enemies with no saving throw.

Or perhaps a spell that temporarily converts the target to second edition... :smallbiggrin:



They don't have Reflex or Fortitude saves, but perhaps it can save vs. spells for half damage.
If so, wouldn't you expect the 2nd edition monsters to be able to save vs. spells back when we learned this?

[Axl_Rose]

haha, that was pretty awesome of the little dude.

Now is it just me or does that thing resemble Diablo?!

[Fish]

Save us, Banjo!

The orcs on the island are totally going to worship this new demon. That is, if Giggles and Banjo don't come down from the heavens to slap the demon to smithereens...

[MReav]

Is it just me or does V look like a Sith Lord.... Perhaps some of you aspiring artists could make that, into one heck of an avatar.

Oh... but what about Darth Scruffius?

Anyways... will there be a Shadow of the Colossus tribute comic?

[FMArthur]

V is going to die from lack of rest or a combination of lack of rest and that huge demon, just so Belkar's prohecy can come true. :smallfrown:

[Wanderer]

For the love of all that's holy, V, meditate already! Your appearance has bypassed any sort of amusement we might have gotten from it and is heading straight into Nightmare Fuel (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NightmareFuel) territory! (beware, TV Tropes will steal hours off your life!)

[Kish]

And it's hard not to cover ground Pratchett has covered. Man writes a lot.

Especially hard when also writing something that makes fun of fantasy conventions, I'd imagine. I somehow don't see Terry Pratchett attempting to copyright "million to one chances always happen."

[KilltheToy]

Of course, the first thing I though of when I read Lien's line was Spaceballs.

"Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."
-Dark Helmet.

[krossbow]

Could be the devil in question got summoned pre-buffed for some random reason, and is just under the effects of a size modifying spell.

That would make it alot less powerful than it initially seems. However, keep in mind, this is the order of the stick. If Sabine's informed her overlords of them, and they viewed the order as a legitimate threat, they could have specially sent this one for the imp's call.







I still want to see Banjo smite the devil through some insane contrived reason (Odin likes puppets! :D )

[Kilarny]

This is going to get uglier than V's face.

[holywhippet]

Save us, Banjo!

The orcs on the island are totally going to worship this new demon. That is, if Giggles and Banjo don't come down from the heavens to slap the demon to smithereens...

Judging from what Lien says in the third panel, this isn't the island where the orcs were living.

[Arcadius798]

oh.my.f*cking.god.

Ice-T as finn, as in SVU moment, as in IN THE FREAKING COMIC!!

(and by the way, therkla deserves what's coming to her)

RICHARD BURLEW! YOU! ARE! GOD!

[Loyal2NES]

By the gods, I want that last line V said on a T-Shirt.

[pirateking89]

I didn't think it was possible, but V looks almost as bad as Belkar.

[plover]

Actually Pratchett Refenced that several times, and Guards! Guards! wasn't the first. The first one that I recall reading (well, hearing, read by Nigel Planer) was in the introduction of Mort (the 4th book but the first that I listened to):



it also appears in Discworld Noir (video game)

I find that highly unlikely. I'd be shocked if this wasn't a nod at Pratchett.

Hey, I'm not objecting. I steal from/nod to Pratchett all the time.

Also, really? I haven't read Mort in a while, but I'll take your word for it. Either way.

[Dragonmuncher]

Loooove that last line.

[Sabre13]

Word.

Man, if only Belkar had been there. If anybody personifies stab first, think about it later ...

Belkar is stab first, stab again, stab some more, and when everyones good and dead, revel in the blood and gore and look for more victims.

How badly do we need lives, if were all trying to decide what that thing is, even going so far as to include bits about size and saves and 2nd edition crap?

If hes a prebuffed beastie with a size enhance, his speed will still be crap. It happened with Durkon and Thor's Might. They can still run like scared puppies.

[silvadel]

V's hair has more split fly-away ends than a broom. If you brushed it, mattes would probably come out.

[David Argall]

If Sabine's informed her overlords of them, and they viewed the order as a legitimate threat, they could have specially sent this one for the imp's call.


The presumption is that Sabine, and her overlords, are demons, who do not get along with devils.

[SmartAlec]

Would that qualify as the right four words?

It's a thought. What do powerful devils do, clasically? Strike bargains with mortals. And, classically, those bargains tend to be for 'all the wrong reasons'.

[Stormthorn]

I would liek to say that having spent hours jsut now watching SVU, seeing the Special Encounter Unit bit in this comic about broke my brain and i was stuck between laughing and crying for about five minutes.

[pendell]

ACTION CUE! Love it!

Minor quibble: Hanging is not a Japanese, or Oriental, punishment. I believe they would consider it barbarous. For the Japanese, Seppuku is what happens to rebellious Daimyo. Or beheading. If they're really wicked, it's crucifixion. Head down, if the authorities are especially irritated.

But hanging? As far as I know, no one in the East in our world does that. It's a western specialty.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Serpentine]

Of course, the first thing I though of when I read Lien's line was Spaceballs.

"Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."
-Dark Helmet.I was wondering whether anyone else spotted that. You think it's a Spaceballs reference too, huh? Cool :smallbiggrin:
Also, I'm pretty sure it's "Now you see that evil will always win, because good is dumb." :smallwink:

[Glome]

The presumption is that Sabine, and her overlords, are demons, who do not get along with devils.

The presumption is that whether Sabine is a devil or demon is one of those things that won't be revealed, like what V's sex actually is. Since we know that Qarr summoned a devil, it actually can't have anything to do with Sabine telling her infernal masters of anything. If the devil summoning was related to Sabine, then we could deduced that she was in fact a devil, which would remove the quantum uncertainty of her status.

So we can gather the cause was just what was lampshaded, that it was really just a million-to-one shot that happened because it was dramatic.

[Liwen]

Hey, may I put an undead subtype on V right now? Because seriously, she's as pale as a vampire, maybe even worse.

And who's that dude who just poped out of nowhere, a Pit Fiend?

[Orestes]

Oops that's a big one!! I gues we'll have to wait until strip #600 to see Roy back in action!!! In the meantime te order of the stick is making good XPs

[Morgan Wick]

Hmm, and how are they going to kill a balor? I predict a lot of running and possably a "you shall not pass" line from V.

Hmm, might those be the infamous "four words"?

I'm starting to wonder if, despite blowing off Therkla's girlfriend request, Elan might not be falling for her after all...

[NENAD]

Hmm, might those be the infamous "four words"?

I'm starting to wonder if, despite blowing off Therkla's girlfriend request, Elan might not be falling for her after all...

No, he isn't. He and Haley are an established couple. Elan has shown nothing to Therkla except gullibility and basic decency by hoping (in vain, it turns out, blasted Shinjo) that she can join the good guys. I'll admit, it's not impossible that Elan might end up with Therkla, but at this point we have no reason to believe it will happen.

[Grey Watcher]

I, for one, am very amused by the fact that a Colossal Demon of sufficient power to frighten a group of high-level characters appears with a "pop!":smallbiggrin:

[nosignal]

ACTION CUE! Love it!

Minor quibble: Hanging is not a Japanese, or Oriental, punishment. I believe they would consider it barbarous. For the Japanese, Seppuku is what happens to rebellious Daimyo. Or beheading. If they're really wicked, it's crucifixion. Head down, if the authorities are especially irritated.

But hanging? As far as I know, no one in the East in our world does that. It's a western specialty.

Respectfully,

Brian P.


Respectfully (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging#Japan)

[Monation]

Respectfully (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging#Japan)

You DO realize those dates are less than five years old, do you? It's more of a feudal japan here in OOTS, where Samurais and Ninjas exist? Not modern day...

[Firebert]

V's getting worse and worse. Can't wait to see the devil fight.

[Ramien]

I was wondering whether anyone else spotted that. You think it's a Spaceballs reference too, huh? Cool :smallbiggrin:
Also, I'm pretty sure it's "Now you see that evil will always win, because good is dumb." :smallwink:

*puts in his copy of Spaceballs: The DVD* It's triumph.

And yes, I did think of Spaceballs before I thought of TVtropes. While an entertaining site, what it mainly does is serve as a repository for the things that people who pay attention to various forms of entertainment have known for quite some time. Authors like Terry Pratchett have been pointing them out for decades (and lampshading is a term that quite predates the site).

And yes, put me down for a shirt with V's line at the end of the comic. Pure gold.

[holywhippet]

The presumption is that Sabine, and her overlords, are demons, who do not get along with devils.

Presumption by who? It was deliberately left vague AFAIK since Haley was never sure if cold iron or silver arrows were hurting her.

From my viewpoint she's more like a devil. For one thing she didn't abandon her teammates after they were locked up. For another, her "bosses" thought Nale had potential. But since he's lawful evil, it wouldn't make sense for chaotic evil demons to be interested in him.

[isocum]

wow today's strip was awesome! loved v's last line.

by the way am i the only one who thinks that qarr actually called his boss and that's its true form?

[Bitzeralisis]

Hooray for improbable causes! :smalleek: :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue: :smallconfused: :smallannoyed: :smallsigh: :smallcool:

[Ellen]

Somebody, please, find a magic user and turn V into something that sleep spells work on.

As for the devil/demon/balor/whatever thingy, I keep thinking of a bit where another wizard was commenting on how well he said, "Flee, you fools!" when fighting a supposedly evil dragon (they were actually just trying to get the heroes to do their part of the story. As the dragon said later, "I thought they'd never figure it out. You know, there's only so much slavering and menacing you can do before it becomes ineffective," or words to that effect).

Dragon: Gandolf said it better.

Wizard: What do you mean, 'Gandolf said it better'?

Dragon: He emoted more.

Wizard: Of course he emoted! He had a Balrog hanging onto his skivvies!

Or something like that.

Which has nothing to do with The Order of the Stick except that I'm half expecting someone to say the same thing.

[Vulion]

Several things of note: V looks terrible, "good is not dumb", V's last line is pure gold.

Fantastic comic all around.

[Red XIV]

I'm starting to wonder if, despite blowing off Therkla's girlfriend request, Elan might not be falling for her after all...
Like NENAD said, that's just Elan being naive and wanting to see the best in everyone if they show even the slightest hint of potential Goodness. It would take a lot (like, Haley being dead in some un-raisable manner or willinging becoming Evil) for Elan to give up on her.


Presumption by who? It was deliberately left vague AFAIK since Haley was never sure if cold iron or silver arrows were hurting her.

From my viewpoint she's more like a devil. For one thing she didn't abandon her teammates after they were locked up. For another, her "bosses" thought Nale had potential. But since he's lawful evil, it wouldn't make sense for chaotic evil demons to be interested in him.
They were interested in his Evil potential, not Chaotic or Lawful potential. And if Sabine were LE, that would make her a erinyes (the LE equivalent of the CE succubus). An erinyes would not cheat on her lover four times in three hours. Also, claws as a weapon of choice is a succubus thing; erinyes tend to use flaming bows. Sabine's behavior and combat style makes her most likely to be a succubus, and thus a Chaotic Evil demon, not a Lawful Evil devil.

[Sabre13]

The presumption is that whether Sabine is a devil or demon is one of those things that won't be revealed, like what V's sex actually is. Since we know that Qarr summoned a devil, it actually can't have anything to do with Sabine telling her infernal masters of anything. If the devil summoning was related to Sabine, then we could deduced that she was in fact a devil, which would remove the quantum uncertainty of her status.

So we can gather the cause was just what was lampshaded, that it was really just a million-to-one shot that happened because it was dramatic.



They were interested in his Evil potential, not Chaotic or Lawful potential. And if Sabine were LE, that would make her a erinyes (the LE equivalent of the CE succubus). An erinyes would not cheat on her lover four times in three hours. Also, claws as a weapon of choice is a succubus thing; erinyes tend to use flaming bows. Sabine's behavior and combat style makes her most likely to be a succubus, and thus a Chaotic Evil demon, not a Lawful Evil devil.



Presumption by who? It was deliberately left vague AFAIK since Haley was never sure if cold iron or silver arrows were hurting her.

From my viewpoint she's more like a devil. For one thing she didn't abandon her teammates after they were locked up. For another, her "bosses" thought Nale had potential. But since he's lawful evil, it wouldn't make sense for chaotic evil demons to be interested in him.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0256.html
This comic shows that Sabine is a Fiend, and i think Fiends are CE, im not sure though. If this be the case, Sabine is a Soccubus and therefore a Demon. If not, shes an Erinyes.:sigh: I am so confused, i havent touched this game in aeons.:confused:

[Tundar]

Heh, I didn't know Elan had a wisdom score that could anticipate this.

Very nasty looking demon/devil/badassmonster. It could indeed be time for V to start chewing bubble gum and kick ass.

[Supermagle]

Anyway, with something like this on their hands, I'm pretty sure this will mark the end of the fleet arc. The gang now has a terrifying enemy to deal with, and might actually put an end to Kubota right after escaping the island, both of which make for a fine way to move onto the next part of the story. Especially since Haley and Celia might actually make some progress with Roy's corpse soon.

Nooo! Don't skip the fight scene - it's been too long since we had a monster battle.

[factotum]

Heh, I didn't know Elan had a wisdom score that could anticipate this.


It's nothing to do with his Wisdom, it's because he is massively Genre Savvy thanks to being a Bard/Dashing Swordsman.

[Bubbles]

Actually...
If that thing is really just a summons shouldn't defeating it be as simple as killing Qarr so it is unsummoned? Or even just casting Dispel..maybe Greater Dispel on Qarr

[elynnia]

So all Qar needed to do was find out just how improbable it was, punch that into the Infinite Improbability Engine, give it a cup of tea, and turn it on!.
Fixed.
This is highly off-topic, but...
you punch the figure into the Finite Improbability Generator.

Remember, the Infinite Improbability Drive hadn't been invented yet.

*disappears in a puff of logic*

[the_tick_rules]

What kinda demon is that anyway? That's like colossal + size there?

[teratorn]

You DO realize those dates are less than five years old, do you? It's more of a feudal japan here in OOTS, where Samurais and Ninjas exist? Not modern day...

Well, it's been going for more than 5 years. There is a fantastic film by Nagisa Oshima, "Death by hanging", that was turned somewhere in the late 1960's.

I have no idea where Pendell got the idea that hanging was not used in japan during feudal times and was considered barbaric. From the 300s to the 800s Japanese had only two forms of death penalty: hanging or beheading, with beheading being considered the most severe form of the two. Japanese history is remarkable because for something like 3 and a half centuries they "de facto" abolished the death penalty (it was always commuted by the emperor into deportation). This was from 810 to 1156! I think it is still one of the longest periods without capital punishment in any nation. As usual this thing ended after a rebellion, and gave place to the feudal period where executions, including hanging where common.

In modern times capital punishment using death by hanging was implemented in Japanese law in 1907 and Japan is one of the few countries where it is routinely used today (9 people were hanged in Japan during 2007).

[Supermagle]

Well... this turned out to be... somewhat longer than expected.

No, that would render this whole thing pointless, therefore, V no longer has a dismissal scroll left. It's the same thing as with the explanation of why that thing was summoned.

Unless it is FUNNY (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfFunny) of course. :smallsmile:

TvTropesLinks += 1;

[Supermagle]

(beware, TV Tropes will steal hours off your life!)

Oh, it's worse than that: TV Tropes Will Ruin Your Life (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife)! :smallsmile:

Oh, and:
TvTropesLinks += 1; // Consider making a loop for this

[Supermagle]

Minor quibble: Hanging is not a Japanese, or Oriental, punishment.

What is this "Japan" you speak of? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html) :smallwink:

[Ellye]

...Anyone who's spent more than 5 minutes on this board has been linked to that site a minimum of 83 times.Yeah, and that's really annoying.

Btw, loved the sound effect for the summoning of the giant Devil/Demon thing.

[Kabarakh]

Really great strip (just like the 2 before :smallwink:)

I think there will be some great story/action with that verrrry big devil(!), but no (real) fight - if I learned something while playing D&D then that really big = REALLY dangerous...

[banjo1985]

Oh dear....I think they all might need to change their underwear after the end of that strip! :smalleek:

Great as always.

[Shott]

Haha, loved the SVU reference. Ice-T as a dwarf is hilarious.

[hamishspence]

Diablo did not have wings.

The Fiend makes me think of the Other Big Red Fiend on the cover of Basic D&D black box (the one with the blue, slitted eyes). Though some people have claimed that was a dragon, it did not look at all like one to me.

[factotum]

Diablo did not have wings.


Well, he DID kind of have the vestigial bones where it looked like wings might have been once...

[hamishspence]

Hmm, maybe d3 will shed light on this subject. Neither Albrecht/Diablo nor Wanderer/Diablo have wings, only long back spines. while its possible
the 3 lost wings in exile from hell, the Sin war book trilogy doesn't depict either Diablo or Mephisto with wings either.

Nor does the D1 manual suggest a Fallen angel theme: no mention of the 3 falling from grace. (izual has bat wings, as do Diablo balrogs. Neither can fly in game, though D20 Diablo rules gave balrogs flight.

[shadowpriest]

the big demon/devil/randombadass will last more than a few panel: in this time, we must predict the fate of the oots, as well as therkla's... but i'm worried that when a death blow is swang in this battle, the scene will slide to haley's, as well as Celia and belkar (given he isn't alredy dead).
please Rich, DON'T KILL BELKAR! this strip needs a SEXY SHOELESS GOD OF WAR! (although sociopath, wrinkled, and lemming-minded)

[Thufir]

:vaarsuvius: I will gladly corroborate; he does not, in fact, know anything. At all.

Hilarious. V's last line, though funny, didn't make me laugh as much, probably because I was distracted by the enormous devil.

[Grunty]

Wow looks like Varsivus and Belkar have a competetion on who looks more worn down. I mean even as tree V looked horrible.

Also poor Therkla. For some reason i like her and i really hope she won't get a simliar fate to Miko.

[Secret Agent Man]

Haha, I loved the Law & Order reference.

[Eran of Arcadia]

To whomever asked what an OTP is: it is this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OneTruePairing), the romantic pairing (whether canon or not) a particular fan likes most or considers most important. I have to say, as OTPs go, Lien/Therkla would be a pretty good one . . .

[Antina]

Nice touch! Even V´s tree is crippled because of V´s condition!:roach: coool!

[Scarblade]

If Elan where to do something one-to-a-million like, he could make an illusion of a giant devil girl (or a litter of puppies) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0066.html) and distract the devil.
So they could escape, or prepare some kind of spell or attack.

[riffin]

Wow. That brings back some good Terry Pratchett moments...

[Ted The Bug]

Belkar and V, the two most powerful OotS members left, are either unable to fight, or heading in that direction. It's fair to say that unless something changes, OotS will be http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/353333/2/istockphoto_353333_screw_wood.jpg'd.

[hamishspence]

Haley is a bit lacking in melee punch, but Durkon at least is pretty capable. Also, while Elan is ditzy, his fighting power did increase with prestige class. That said, both groups are up to their ears in trouble. I wonder what will happen next.

[HOLEkevin]

Yeah, I wouldn't have told Elan anything either.

[BRC]

My My My, that is a Very big devil indeed. Now I'm not quite sure exactly how this calling thing works, but it's possible that they could grab Quarr,tie him up, and suspend him over a bath of holy water, then say "Call off the demon or we lower you.
If Quarr says "But you'll kill me anyway if I call it off", Hinjo will say "Okay, I swear on my honor as a paladin that neither me nor my men will kill you if you call off the demon." Quarr will agree to this, call off the demon, and then Lien will impale Quarr, not being one of hinjos "Men" as it were.

[Kaytara]

Well, the DPSer and the Nuker aren't critical roles per se. Without V and Belkar, the party still has someone to handle negotiations (Elan, but preferably Haley), someone to heal (Durkon), and someone to soak up the damage (Durkon again, though naturally to a lesser extent than Roy.) But yeah, the Order is pretty much screwed without them.

Also, another parallel between Belkar and V that was hinted at many strips ago is becoming more obvious.

"Frankly, I relish the opportunity to garner a few experience points in such a conflict."

"Run, my precious little chunks of XP, run!"

I'd say the comparison would fill V with shame, but I don't think the elf really cares at this point.

[DigoDragon]

Actually...
If that thing is really just a summons shouldn't defeating it be as simple as killing Qarr so it is unsummoned? Or even just casting Dispel..maybe Greater Dispel on Qarr

I was thinking the EXACT SAME THING! It would be halarious if everyone goes off fighting the giant demon lord and then Elan turns to Quarr and punches his lights out, unsummoning the demon. :smallsmile:

[AWM]

:vaarsuvius:

Please note that all calculations are potentially fallible.


Why didn't anybody get attacks of opportunity on that imp?


-awm

[Otempora]

Awesome strip. :D

At first I thought "Good is dumb" was a reference to TV Tropes, but then I remembered where the trope name came from. Ah, well.

And yet more praise for the last line. I would definitely buy a T-shirt with that quote.

[Shatteredtower]

Loved the last line.

It should be noted that the "Pop!" sound only looks small in comparison to the summoned fiend. Compare its size to that of the rowboat in the foreground.

No fault of the Giant, but I'm getting the entirely wrong vibe from Lien's response to Hinjo as she slaps the manacles on Therkla.

I wonder what the half-orc's Escape Artist modifier is like?


V's 4 words: "Let's make a deal."
Right being, right time, all the wrong reasons.That's five words, not four. A contraction does not decrease your word count.

[hamishspence]

"I want to bargain" Same meaning, four words, no contractions. Maybe the vibe from "With pleasure" has precedent. When Burns is angry with his son and says to Smithers: Take off my belt, and Smithers replies "With pleasure" we are intended to get that vibe. I doubt it was intentional this time though.

[AtomicKitKat]

One in a million... So Qarr rolled 100, then another 100, and finally, 1 more 100 to summon what? A Demon Prince? An Archdevil?:eek:

[Lunaya]

Poor V. Hir tree looks as sick as s/he does. :smallfrown:

But I did enjoy hir assessment of the laws of drama as they relate to the laws of probability. XD

[silversaraph]

My My My, that is a Very big devil indeed. Now I'm not quite sure exactly how this calling thing works, but it's possible that they could grab Quarr,tie him up, and suspend him over a bath of holy water, then say "Call off the demon or we lower you.
If Quarr says "But you'll kill me anyway if I call it off", Hinjo will say "Okay, I swear on my honor as a paladin that neither me nor my men will kill you if you call off the demon." Quarr will agree to this, call off the demon, and then Lien will impale Quarr, not being one of hinjos "Men" as it were.


I completely support to this idea. or, V could attack, and rich could have two dozen more "V's gender" threads. Though, it's possible that they wont get a chance...




No posts in a month because of my old seizure causing avatar...:smallfrown:

[SoC175]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0256.html
This comic shows that Sabine is a Fiend, and i think Fiends are CE, im not sure though. If this be the case, Sabine is a Soccubus and therefore a Demon. If not, shes an Erinyes.:sigh: I am so confused, i havent touched this game in aeons.:confused:
No, fiend is the term for any evil outsider, no matter whether it's CE, NE or LE

Why didn't anybody get attacks of opportunity on that imp?
Because he mad his concentration check to summon defensive?

[nowiwantmydmg]

Great strip; after Roy, V is definately my favourite character.

And why wouldn't they kill the Imp while it was summoning?

If the Imp could do that before wouldn't it have destroyed Hinjo's boat with it before now? Seems to be a plot hole big enough to drive a truck through, my bet would be it's an illusion to give Qarr some bargaining power.

[ironballs]

One in a million... So Qarr rolled 100, then another 100, and finally, 1 more 100 to summon what? A Demon Prince? An Archdevil?:eek:

It's 1 in a million chance for him to actually summon a major fiend by his own strengths - however, this does not include the RP side of this:
I think it's very probable that Qarr is also some sort of envoy for a major demon player (in the grand design of the campaign) - and it seems likely that it will give Qarr permission to call for him (or another strong servant) when he really needs it.

[hamishspence]

Maybe its not a "summoning Trance" per se. Maybe Qaar has an item of summoning that requires concentration to use. OotS sometimes uses the term Summoning when Calling might fit better.

[DeepChild]

Dwarven Ice-T...awesome.

Bingo. This had me laughing out loud at work. Great stuff.

[B.I.T.T.]

Once again, good work.

[Daelach]

Sabine is a succubus. Consider the traits of erinyes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#erinyes) and succubi (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#succubus) versus what we know of Sabine. She uses change shape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html), energy drain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0343.html), attacks with claws (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0349.html) (rather than longsword and bow), and finally, is an "evil incarnation of illicit sex (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html)."

This implies that the "imp" is not really an imp (devil) but rather a quasit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#quasit) (demon). We don't necessarily trust the other characters to use the right terms because they've had trouble distinguishing between demons and devils before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html). Now the "imp" probably has class levels which explain it's ability to summon another demon. We've seen it use charm monster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0559.html), an ability it would not normally have, so this is not unexpected.

The summoned demon is probably a nalfeshnee (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#nalfeshnee). Again, there are no devils that are that big and the nalfeshnee, at 20 feet tall, is not completely out of proportion -- especially considering that the "trees" on the island are only about twice the height of a human (as per the first panel). Also, a nalfeshnee has relatively small wings and a challenge rating much more in line with what Elan & company can handle.

[hamishspence]

problem is, we have no direct association between Qaar and Sabine. Its not impossible that they could be on opposite sides. Though it is true that before 3rd ed Chaotic imps did exist (the aforementioned Druzil was a novel example)

Nale seems moderately Lawful, but that doesn't prevent a less lawful corruptor.

Imps are usually red with stinging tails, quasits usually green with poisoned claws.

[pendell]

Respectfully (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging#Japan)

Thank you, I did not know that.

Nonetheless, there was a time period in Japan when hanging was not practiced.
In Pre-Meiji (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_punishment_in_Edo-period_Japan) Japan, Execution was by:



* Boiling
* Burning
* Crucifixion for killing a parent, husband etc.
* Decapitation by sword
* Sawing
* Waist-cutting. The Kanazawa han coupled this with decapitation.


And, of course, the aforementioned Seppuku.

You mention that hanging was practiced from 300 - 800 AD. I still think that Tokugawa-era is still more "fantasy" than either modern Japan or pre-1000 Japan. Nonetheless, I acknowledge that hanging has been and is now a Japanese method of execution. I stand corrected.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Scarblade]

I've just noticed the little crossbow, the Law and Order guy has at his waist, nice detail:smallwink:.
Plus, I wonder what Durkon is up to, since he isen't taking part in the discussion, something clever I hope.

[brionl]

Thank you, I did not know that.

Nonetheless, there was a time period in Japan when hanging was not practiced.
In Pre-Meiji (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_punishment_in_Edo-period_Japan) Japan, Execution was by:



As has already been pointed out, it's not Japan! It's Azure City. Close, but not the same.

[hamishspence]

Again, Azure city does not have that much in common with Japan, even fantasy one. "What is this Japan you speak of" sums it up pretty well, was said earlier.

[Crinos]

I've just noticed the little crossbow, the Law and Order guy has at his waist, nice detail:smallwink:.
Plus, I wonder what Durkon is up to, since he isen't taking part in the discussion, something clever I hope.

My guess is he's getting ready to cast a summon of his own.

Granted, he probably cant call something as metal as Devilzilla, but hopefully it will be able to do something.

Or be defeated in comic fashion.

[Crinos]

Sabine is a succubus. Consider the traits of erinyes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#erinyes) and succubi (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#succubus) versus what we know of Sabine. She uses change shape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html), energy drain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0343.html), attacks with claws (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0349.html) (rather than longsword and bow), and finally, is an "evil incarnation of illicit sex (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html)."

This implies that the "imp" is not really an imp (devil) but rather a quasit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#quasit) (demon). We don't necessarily trust the other characters to use the right terms because they've had trouble distinguishing between demons and devils before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html). Now the "imp" probably has class levels which explain it's ability to summon another demon. We've seen it use charm monster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0559.html), an ability it would not normally have, so this is not unexpected.

The summoned demon is probably a nalfeshnee (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#nalfeshnee). Again, there are no devils that are that big and the nalfeshnee, at 20 feet tall, is not completely out of proportion -- especially considering that the "trees" on the island are only about twice the height of a human (as per the first panel). Also, a nalfeshnee has relatively small wings and a challenge rating much more in line with what Elan & company can handle.

I thought Quasits couldn't fly, or did they change that from 2e.

And anyways, aren't Nalfeshnee really obese? That thing looks like its been hitting the gym.

[hamishspence]

Yes, they changed it. Can fly in 3.0. Some 3rd ed pics show wingless quasits but by 3.5 they had wings.

Half-fiend template adds wings, and can be added to fiends, oddly enough. Half-fiend/Goristro or Ghour with max HD would fit demonwise. Devilwise might be harder.

Epic Handbook Infernal could be either a demon or a devil, depending on alignment (cos its extraplanar evil outsider with either Chaotic or Lawful subtype) Big, winged, muscled, powerful. But still no Larger than pit fiend at Large. Taller though: 15 ft to pit fiend's 12 ft.

[Linkavitch]

Awesome comic, Giant. tto all of you who thought the tree on the left wasn't Hinjo, Ha! It was! Anyway, they look like they're in deep crap now! And to the person that asked what V would look like when they came back, that's what he looks like.

[eilandesq]

All fun aside, there is a reasonably likely resolution to this situation that doesn't involve deus ex machina or a rules joke to carry it off:

We know from the incident with the orcs that Durkon can cast Holy Word--which includes a banishment effect with a -4 penalty on the will save of the target along with the probably minimum 21 or 22 base will save. Aside from probably insta-killing the imp, there's a good chance that anything short of an archdevil will have its SR blown through and that it will fail its save, sending it away. Of course, there's a good chance that Durkon will fail his SR penetration check or the Big Guy will make his save, but it's not utterly implausible that Durkon will succeed.

[Crinos]

Yes, they changed it. Can fly in 3.0. Some 3rd ed pics show wingless quasits but by 3.5 they had wings.

Half-fiend template adds wings, and can be added to fiends, oddly enough. Half-fiend/Goristro or Ghour with max HD would fit demonwise. Devilwise might be harder.

Epic Handbook Infernal could be either a demon or a devil, depending on alignment (cos its extraplanar evil outsider with either Chaotic or Lawful subtype) Big, winged, muscled, powerful. But still no Larger than pit fiend at Large. Taller though: 15 ft to pit fiend's 12 ft.

Actually, now that you mention it, maybe that is a Goristro, just one with wings. I honestly can't think of anything else it could be unless its a homebrewed or 3rd party monster.

hope it is a Goristro, they've been one of my favorite demons since 2e.

[hamishspence]

if its a WOTC monster, its either advanced, or The Giant is adjusting size to suit Funny.

Would not be first time: Enlarge Person in Stick is slightly exaggerated, Celia and Goblins are larger, fiendish giant octopus seemed oversized as well.

[Your Grass]

Wow. Does not look good.

P.S. Who else thinks that V is gonna blow - he's looking steadily worse - one of these days, he'll just use some magic and destroy the world.

[plainsfox]

Also, that is one tiny "pop" for such a gigantic devil.

Stupid thought here. and I'm sorry if it's been addressed already, but what if this is an illusion and it's really a Qarr scale imp that we just think is this big huge monster *goes and hides*

[Lycar]

My My My, that is a Very big devil indeed. Now I'm not quite sure exactly how this calling thing works, but it's possible that they could grab Quarr,tie him up, and suspend him over a bath of holy water, then say "Call off the demon or we lower you.
If Quarr says "But you'll kill me anyway if I call it off", Hinjo will say "Okay, I swear on my honor as a paladin that neither me nor my men will kill you if you call off the demon." Quarr will agree to this, call off the demon, and then Lien will impale Quarr, not being one of hinjos "Men" as it were.

Not gonna happen. They are paladins. They are lawful good.

What you just described is lawful evil.

Hinjo knows damn well that when he says that none of his men will harm the imp, this does indeed mean all his 'men' regardless of individual gender.

He wouldn't even allow any on the OotS crew to harm the imp, even though they aren't really under his command, he is responsible if he doesn't prevent them from doing the imp in. Because that would be causing harm by inaction.

Such is the burden of the truly lawful good.

Lycar

[DrunkMonkGar]

Stupid thought here. and I'm sorry if it's been addressed already, but what if this is an illusion and it's really a Qarr scale imp that we just think is this big huge monster *goes and hides*

Check the "Raaawwrrr" panel, you can see the moon and the Azure fleet. Though after reading your post and before seeing the moon, I thought it would be funny if he was on a lilly pad with a model of the Azure fleet nearby.

[hamishspence]

hey, by Vile darkness rules Hinjo could Fall for Associating with Qaar, or sparing his life. In D&D you can get away with killing an imp when its surrendered.

While torture is considered Evil by Exalted Deeds and Fiendish Codex 2 rules, in R.A. Salvatore's Servant of the Shard, the Good Aligned Cadderly routinely summons demons, tortures them for info, and banishes them.

This may be a sign that R.A. Salvatore's writing is not of the best. Though personally i though SotS was the best of th Entreri trilogy.

[LordSintax]

proving once again the old axiom, "if your opponent is in a summoning trance, interrupt it. for heaven's sake, interrupt it."

And V is REALLY starting to look rough. may I suggest a series of potions from the elven wizard P'antene?

also, dwarven ice-t = AWESOME.

[hamishspence]

Durkon doesn't actually say anything in this strip as far as I can tell. Does Dwarven Ice-T refer to something I am missing?

Edit: Law and Order probably. Have not seen it, so did not get it.

[Crinos]

Durkon doesn't actually say anything in this strip as far as I can tell. Does Dwarven Ice-T refer to something I am missing?

Edit: Law and Order probably. Have not seen it, so did not get it.

Ice T plays one of the cops on Law and Order: SVU.

Yes, I'm a fan, so sue me.

[Alaska Fan]

Naw.

The small "pop" means its a small demon, with some kind of illusion on it. Qarr just saw an instance of illusion and simply stole the idea. This is a Qarr-sized imp.
Or maybe not.

[David Argall]

If that thing is really just a summons shouldn't defeating it be as simple as killing Qarr so it is unsummoned? Or even just casting Dispel..maybe Greater Dispel on Qarr
By Hollywood rules, often yes. By D&D rules, the summons is for a period of time and the health of the caster is of no importance once the spell is cast.
Of course our writer has not exactly shown 100% compliance with the RAW...



Not gonna happen. They are paladins. They are lawful good.

What you just described is lawful evil.
For the subject at hand, there is no difference between LG and LE. We are just discussing Law, and for our purposes, Good and Evil merely twists the law in different cases and directions.


Hinjo knows damn well that when he says that none of his men will harm the imp, this does indeed mean all his 'men' regardless of individual gender.
As is well established in a host of stories, it means nothing of the sort. Lawful means keeping your word, not keeping what somebody wishes or thinks your word was.


He wouldn't even allow any on the OotS crew to harm the imp, even though they aren't really under his command, he is responsible if he doesn't prevent them from doing the imp in. Because that would be causing harm by inaction.
That depends on whether the imp deserved harm, not on a promise not to let any of his men harm the imp. Again, the point is established in any number of stories. A promise by the hero not to hurt the villain does not produce any duty to defend the villain from harm by others.



problem is, we have no direct association between Qaar and Sabine. Its not impossible that they could be on opposite sides.
In fact we have evidence they are on opposite sides. Sabine learns about the gates and rushes off to tell her superiors. Qarr displays no knowledge of the gates. One can argue somebody messed up and forgot to tell him, but Qarr is in an obviously major position once the meaning of the Gate comes out. Not telling him is stupidity on the "has to be seen to be believed" scale.



why wouldn't they kill the Imp while it was summoning?
They easily could have, but V judged the summons would fail, produce something trivial, or something that would merely be a challenge suitable for gaining some XP.
Giving the imp a few kicks would have been the safer alternative, but as the FAQ points out, if the PCs do the wiser thing, there is no story.


If the Imp could do that before wouldn't it have destroyed Hinjo's boat with it before now? Seems to be a plot hole big enough to drive a truck through, my bet would be it's an illusion to give Qarr some bargaining power.
As noted, the odds of actually doing this are extremely low. Qarr could summons round after round after round and all involved could have starved to death before he got anything greatly dangerous. In effect, Qarr got all the numbers right on the lottery ticket. Anyone with any sense would have told him the ticket wasn't worth buying.

[DomaDoma]

Vaarsuvius had better come out of this funk soon, because I'm finding it more difficult to look straight at her with every passing strip.

[Kish]

Sabine is a succubus. Consider the traits of erinyes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#erinyes) and succubi (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#succubus) versus what we know of Sabine. She uses change shape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html), energy drain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0343.html), attacks with claws (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0349.html) (rather than longsword and bow), and finally, is an "evil incarnation of illicit sex (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html)."

This implies that the "imp" is not really an imp (devil) but rather a quasit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#quasit) (demon).

Huh? Qarr has nothing to do with Sabine. :smallconfused: Kubota's alignment might suggest something about the type of fiend he's likely to have as a servant.

[Doug Lampert]

Surely the Giant demonstrated his mastery of plot conventions long before the wiki was even dreamt of?

I have no idea when that wiki was dreamt of. But everything it's being referenced for was a cliche LONG before the invention of the web browser. So the Giant can certainly be aware of them without needing that moderately amusing website.

DougL

[chiasaur11]

I have no idea when that wiki was dreamt of. But everything it's being referenced for was a cliche LONG before the invention of the web browser. So the Giant can certainly be aware of them without needing that moderately amusing website.

DougL

He probably was, but the lampshade hangings on lampshade hanging seem a possible indication he has visited it at least once or twice.

[holywhippet]

While torture is considered Evil by Exalted Deeds and Fiendish Codex 2 rules, in R.A. Salvatore's Servant of the Shard, the Good Aligned Cadderly routinely summons demons, tortures them for info, and banishes them.

His books hardly follow the core rules though. When Drizzt gets hurt, why doesn't he cast healing spells on himself? As experienced as he is as a ranger he should be able to cast healing spells by now. Unless he is a fighter/ranger I suppose.

[AlexanderRM]

The presumption is that whether Sabine is a devil or demon is one of those things that won't be revealed, like what V's sex actually is.

I was under the impression that some people think that Sabine is a devil because they didn't think the evidence could possibly be so blindingly obvious after all that "WHICH ONE?" stuff. Either that or they haven't actually read the relevant sections of the MM in a while. Or it's possible that certain creatures act different in their campaigns. (which would explain why someone would think an erynies is a LE succubus)

[Rev. George]

I'll admit, it's not impossible that Elan might end up with Therkla, but at this point we have no reason to believe it will happen.

True, but he might not end up with Haley. See Episode 331: Elan:"Will all of this have a happy ending?" Oracle: "For you at least."

-+G

[holywhippet]

In fact we have evidence they are on opposite sides. Sabine learns about the gates and rushes off to tell her superiors. Qarr displays no knowledge of the gates. One can argue somebody messed up and forgot to tell him, but Qarr is in an obviously major position once the meaning of the Gate comes out. Not telling him is stupidity on the "has to be seen to be believed" scale.

Your reasoning is a bit flawed. Just because he has said nothing about the gates doesn't mean he knows nothing about them. He could have been planted so that if/when Azure City is back in human hands he has ready access to the gate/rift there.

[David Argall]

Your reasoning is a bit flawed. Just because he has said nothing about the gates doesn't mean he knows nothing about them. He could have been planted so that if/when Azure City is back in human hands he has ready access to the gate/rift there.

From what we know, Qarr was in position long before the knowledge of the gates started leaking out. In 484, he is behaving as if he had been associating with Kubota for a substantial period, which works out to well before the party arrived in Azure City. So he was in position long before Sabine told her bosses about the gates. Thus he was likely working to control the city and knew nothing of the gates.

However the point at issue is whether he was on the same side as Sabine. Sabine and allies also know the basics of Xykon's plans to seize a gate. Qarr doesn't.
Kubota and Qarr assume Xykon is a giant raiding party, very dangerous, but in the last analysis it can be weathered like a storm. Kubota leaves town for a week or two and comes back to find most of his foes are dead. A sensible strategy for taking over the city.
But as Sabine would have made clear to them, this strategy is insane when you know that Xykon plans on settling down and controlling the Gate. All that running away can do is allow you to die a little slower. If he knows of the Gate and Xykon's interest in it, Kubota should have manned the walls and fought to the last, or tried to strike a deal with Xykon. Neither strategy is without risks, but both offer some hope of victory.

So we find that Sabine's message never got to Qarr, and the obvious reason for that is that they were not on the same side.

[Red XIV]

That's five words, not four. A contraction does not decrease your word count.
It doesn't? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html) Panels 10, 12, and 14 are good examples to the contrary.


I was under the impression that some people think that Sabine is a devil because they didn't think the evidence could possibly be so blindingly obvious after all that "WHICH ONE?" stuff.
This, mostly. Just because Haley doesn't know whether Sabine is a devil or a demon doesn't mean we the readers don't have enough evidence on hand to figure it out. We've seen a lot of Sabine's actions that Haley didn't, after all.


Your reasoning is a bit flawed. Just because he has said nothing about the gates doesn't mean he knows nothing about them. He could have been planted so that if/when Azure City is back in human hands he has ready access to the gate/rift there.
There's no evidence that Qarr's agenda involves the gates, or even that he's aware of their existence. It's quite a leap to assume he knows about them and thus is connected to Sabine's masters.

[Halvormerlinaky]

Stupid thought here. and I'm sorry if it's been addressed already, but what if this is an illusion and it's really a Qarr scale imp that we just think is this big huge monster *goes and hides*

That's actually not such a stupid idea, since imps can't summon. But can they cast illusions? I don't remember.

[Ronald_saveloy]

one-to-one-million chance.

Is there any gamer that hasn't encountered such a situation at the table? I remember a situation when on member of the party was in chess-like game against the evil overlord. She had to win but there was no chance she could beat the overlord because of his stats.

Guess what happened: Natural 1 by the overlord thus loosing the game.

[Shatteredtower]

It doesn't? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html) Panels 10, 12, and 14 are good examples to the contrary.
No, they just show that the Giant is prone to making the same mistake. A contraction is still two words.

Hamishspence is correct in pointing out that it's easy enough to rephrase the requenst, and gave an example of the sort of wording we might expect from V.

[SoC175]

there's a good chance that anything short of an archdevil will have its SR blown through and that it will fail its save, sending it away. Of course, there's a good chance that Durkon will fail his SR penetration check or the Big Guy will make his save, but it's not utterly implausible that Durkon will succeed.
Assuming Durkon is lvl 14 and it's a standard pitfiend which is merely drawn bigger for better effect, Durkon has a 35% to fail beating it's SR and even if we assume Durkon to have 21 Wisdom the standard pit fiend saves on 5+ (the -4 penalty already included). Anything more powerfull than a standard pitfiend is even more unlikely to fail it's save.

So while it's not utterly implausible, it's also not very likely

His books hardly follow the core rules though. When Drizzt gets hurt, why doesn't he cast healing spells on himself? As experienced as he is as a ranger he should be able to cast healing spells by now. Unless he is a fighter/ranger I suppose.
In 3.x he was a Ftr10/Bbn1/Rgr5, so he should have been able to cast 1st lvl ranger spells (thx to wisdom bonus spells). And in 4e rangers can't cast spells anymore anyway

Guess what happened: Natural 1 by the overlord thus loosing the game.
Well, unless the game was played with a saving throw or attack roll, it was a house rule. Because a nat 1 only fails on attacks/saves but never on any king of check (skill check, ability check)

[Daelach]

From what we know, Qarr was in position long before the knowledge of the gates started leaking out. In 484, he is behaving as if he had been associating with Kubota for a substantial period, which works out to well before the party arrived in Azure City. So he was in position long before Sabine told her bosses about the gates.

Nothing in 484 indicates that Qarr and Kubota have associated for any substantial amount of time. We only know that they have some sort of agreement and a plan of action. That would take maybe a day to set up.

Now it's true that we have no direct association between Qarr and Sabine but such a link makes sense. Sabine informs her bosses in strip 380. If we assume that her bosses, following standard lower plane procedure, find a power-hungry mortal close to the object of interest and then make him a deal, that perfectly explains Qarr's association with Kubota.

The alternative, that Qarr has no connection with Sabine, means that we have yet another "side" in a story which is already full of them (Oots, Linear Guild, Xykon/Redcloak, Sapphire Guard, and Sabine's bosses). For now, I'm betting on the simpler explanation.

[factotum]

The alternative, that Qarr has no connection with Sabine, means that we have yet another "side" in a story which is already full of them (Oots, Linear Guild, Xykon/Redcloak, Sapphire Guard, and Sabine's bosses). For now, I'm betting on the simpler explanation.

Why is having yet another side so unlikely? Remember the comment from the demon cockroaches in strip #548 ("I count at least nine." "Shh! They don't know about some of those yet!") which implies your listing of a mere five sides is a massive underestimate.

[Max_Sinister]

So I was wrong that the OotS had reached rock bottom in the last strip. (Misidentified the trees.)

Seems I was just wrong for one strip.

And I wonder whether V will gain ultimate power by saying four words to this devil, as was predicted by the Oracle. (Just in case nobody pointed out already.)

[Random221]

Okay, a few hundred strips earlyer V disrupted a dragon and got no levelups. After this, surely the entire orded (Except Belkar ;( and Haley... & Roy) will get a few more levels (including the Linear guild)

Wonder what would have happened if they tie a rock to the imp and throw it into the water. Would the demon be summoned underwater?

[Rev. George]

Wonder what would have happened if they tie a rock to the imp and throw it into the water. Would the demon be summoned underwater?

Tsunami...

RE: What is Quarr- We do know he requires silver to hit: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html
and that he can cast spells
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0559.html (refers to charm monster as a spell)
And he has telepathy:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0509.html

He's a type of devil. Demons require iron to hit, devils silver. My money is on him being an imp, homebrewed to have a class (and arguably a level adjustment).

-+G

[David Argall]

Nothing in 484 indicates that Qarr and Kubota have associated for any substantial amount of time.
The simple fact they are associated makes the assumption that they have associated for a "long" time the default. It is those wishing to suggest a short association who must show it.
However, read 484 a little closer. And read Kubota's other appearances. Kubota has a very strong sense of his own superiority. He does not suffer fools [defined as anybody who disagrees with him]. Yet in 484, Qarr practically gives orders and elsewhere we see Kubota treating him as a trusted advisor. This speaks for a substantial period of association.


We only know that they have some sort of agreement and a plan of action. That would take maybe a day to set up.
It would take a day to formally sign the paperwork maybe. To actually come to an agreement routinely takes far longer. We have here in effect a marriage, and while it can be possible in theory to go out drinking and wake up married, the normal process can take years, and routinely takes way longer than the time we are discussing here.


Now it's true that we have no direct association between Qarr and Sabine but such a link makes sense. Sabine informs her bosses in strip 380. If we assume that her bosses, following standard lower plane procedure, find a power-hungry mortal close to the object of interest and then make him a deal, that perfectly explains Qarr's association with Kubota.
But we don't need Sabine for this scenario. Indeed Sabine argues that Qarr is not associated with her. She tells us Nale is somebody with potential. But he is still an NPC nobody. If he rates a powerful demon, why wouldn't we assume that Kubota would also be down for fiendish attention whether or not any gates existed? He would have presumably been approached, possibly a very long time ago, with some sort of deal.

And again, Qarr shows no sign of knowing of the gates. While much of his activities can be said to not need a mention of his ultimate goals, his actions are much easier to understand if we assume he merely wants to rule "Azure City" than if he wants to control a gate.


The alternative, that Qarr has no connection with Sabine, means that we have yet another "side" in a story which is already full of them (Oots, Linear Guild, Xykon/Redcloak, Sapphire Guard, and Sabine's bosses).
This side was built in from the D&D rules, which make demon and devil hostile to each other. And recall here we are in a "real" world. It has zillions of "sides". Some we interact with a lot, some just a little, and a whole lot we never even get evidence of.

[mec]

That enormous demon is no match for ...


Hinjo's awesome package

[chiasaur11]

That enormous demon is no match for ...


Hinjo's awesome package


You mean his junk. How a boat will help with this scenario, I am unclear.

I think salvation will come from the might of Banjo.

[Kaytara]

Maybe Durkon is off freaking out about the trees. XD Remember, they ARE in the middle of a little woodsy island...

As for Qarr knowing or not knowing about the Gates and how that determines his fiendish status, come on, would you really trust a more or less regular imp with knowledge like that, so that it could leak and your rivals would get the chance to use it? Many minions operate best on a need-to-know basis, so there is no reason to assume a lowly imp like Qarr would be aware of the whole picture, even if he did know that there is a "Plan" of some kind.

[mec]

You mean his junk. How a boat will help with this scenario, I am unclear.

No, I don't mean Hinjo's junk. It's over a hundred comics and we've seen plenty of Hinjo's junk and what it can do. Meanwhile you've completely forgotten about Hinjo's package. But I haven't!

[Sabre13]

Wonder what would have happened if they tie a rock to the imp and throw it into the water. Would the demon be summoned underwater?

Tsunami...

RE: What is Quarr- We do know he requires silver to hit: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html
and that he can cast spells
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0559.html (refers to charm monster as a spell)
And he has telepathy:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0509.html

He's a type of devil. Demons require iron to hit, devils silver. My money is on him being an imp, homebrewed to have a class (and arguably a level adjustment).

-+G

If you look at Lien, she calls Qarr an imp several times in the latest strip.


No, I don't mean Hinjo's junk. It's over a hundred comics and we've seen plenty of Hinjo's junk and what it can do. Meanwhile you've completely forgotten about Hinjo's package. But I haven't!

I remember the package, but i think that was just another gag in a long line of sexual innuendo, and might not have any sort of significance. However, that is still intriguing and i would like to see if it comes into play.

and to whoever hints about the spellcheck on Firefox in their sig, i used it.

[Traker]

No, I don't mean Hinjo's junk. It's over a hundred comics and we've seen plenty of Hinjo's junk and what it can do. Meanwhile you've completely forgotten about Hinjo's package. But I haven't!

Hinjo's package?:smallconfused:

[hamishspence]

It is true that there were pre-3rd ed demonic rather than devilish imps (sting, invisibility, red, etc) but since 3rd ed came out? Devil.

[Kish]

Nothing in 484 indicates that Qarr and Kubota have associated for any substantial amount of time. We only know that they have some sort of agreement and a plan of action. That would take maybe a day to set up.

Now it's true that we have no direct association between Qarr and Sabine but such a link makes sense. Sabine informs her bosses in strip 380. If we assume that her bosses, following standard lower plane procedure, find a power-hungry mortal close to the object of interest and then make him a deal, that perfectly explains Qarr's association with Kubota.

The alternative, that Qarr has no connection with Sabine, means that we have yet another "side" in a story which is already full of them (Oots, Linear Guild, Xykon/Redcloak, Sapphire Guard, and Sabine's bosses). For now, I'm betting on the simpler explanation.
You're saying "The creature described as an imp who claims to be vulnerable only to silver and good-aligned weapons is actually a quasit who is barely connected to his apparent boss and much more connected to another character he has never been shown being connected to" is a simpler (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) explanation than, "Kubota and his various followers make up a side of their own dedicated to Kubota's power."

[Tobimaro]

I, for one, am very amused by the fact that a Colossal Demon of sufficient power to frighten a group of high-level characters appears with a "pop!":smallbiggrin:

Just like you can hide a fiendish dire tiger (wearing full plate barding) in six inches of grass? Saw that happen in a module once.

Anyways, Elan once again stole the strip today. And I like Vaarsuvius's prose at the end. But I would recommend that the elf get some rest. Or maybe take a vacation. :smalleek:

[Zolem]

Just like you can hide a fiendish dire tiger (wearing full plate barding) in six inches of grass? Saw that happen in a module once.

Anyways, Elan once again stole the strip today. And I like Vaarsuvius's prose at the end. But I would recommend that the elf get some rest. Or maybe take a vacation. :smalleek:

Seriously, 6-inches isn't really enought o hide a person in plate-mail, teh top would shine too much at that limited height....

Anyway, I agree, she definently needs to trance. She looks almost undead right now. And going too long without sleep will actually kill humans, so it's 99.999999999999% likly the same with elves, but since they only need to go to the bathroom once every few weeks, and they only trance for 4-hours instead of 8, maybe it's not that dangerous.

[AlexanderRM]

V looks almost undead right now? Does anyone else think that his/her eyes look like holes and the lines all over V's face make it look like his her skin is... cracking somehow? If elves were capable of dying from lack of trance, I think V would have done so by now...

[Zolem]

V looks almost undead right now? Does anyone else think that his/her eyes look like holes and the lines all over V's face make it look like his her skin is... cracking somehow? If elves were capable of dying from lack of trance, I think V would have done so by now...

Hmm, an excelent point, let's conduct an experiment to figure this out.

WARNING!
Biological math up next. I know math doesn't really work with biology, but it proves a point.

An average human will die in one week of sleep deprevation, that's 7 days. The average human needs to go to the bathroom 3 times a day, that's 1/3 a day. An elf needs to go one every few weeks, let's say the oficial definition of a few, 3-4, and ear on the side of caution with the highest value, that's 4 weeks, or 28 days. That means that evlan biology is 84x as eficient as a normal human. 7x84 = 588 days. Assuming 30 days for all months, that's 588/30 = 19 1/4 months untill an elf would die from lack of trance. Having been about 6 1/4 months, that would leave 13 months on the calender.

[SporeGames]

Awwww. I was hoping for an imitation of the Aqua Teen Hunger Force Episode.Wait. Who was the glaufork who said that and made Lord Ric change his mind?:smallmad:

[Synthetic]

I can't believe after having been reading this comic since around the early-200's strip-wise, and having resisted the urge to join the forum in all that time, I finally felt compelled to join simply to correct a glaring error in someone's post. How neurotic am I?


Hmm, an excelent point, let's conduct an experiment to figure this out.

WARNING!
Biological math up next. I know math doesn't really work with biology, but it proves a point.

An average human will die in one week of sleep deprevation, that's 7 days. The average human needs to go to the bathroom 3 times a day, that's 1/3 a day. An elf needs to go one every few weeks, let's say the oficial definition of a few, 3-4, and ear on the side of caution with the highest value, that's 4 weeks, or 28 days. That means that evlan biology is 84x as eficient as a normal human. 7x84 = 588 days. Assuming 30 days for all months, that's 588/30 = 19 1/4 months untill an elf would die from lack of trance. Having been about 6 1/4 months, that would leave 13 months on the calender.

Your biological math is shot to pieces when you consider the fact that an average human will *not* die of sleep depravation in the span of a week, not even close. In fact, being sleep deprived for the span of a week will not even cause lasting harm to a person so long as they do eventually get some sleep and recover.

The current record for someone intentionally depriving themselves of sleep is over 11 days, again with no lasting harm. But that's the world record so let's discount that, shall we? After all, that person could be said to be the best in the world, and you were speaking of the average person.

So instead let's move into actual science. There is a disease called "fatal familial insomnia" which has four stages. Once a sufferer has reached the third stage, they have become completely unable to sleep. They are literally physically incapable of falling asleep, thus becoming the definition of sleep depravation. Even microsleep (common in insomnia) is impossible.

Once a person has reached the third stage of fatal familial insomnia, it generally takes them an average of *9 months* to die. Now, it's worth noting that they were already heavily sleep deprived before the third stage, but we're just counting the time after they were completely unable to sleep altogether.

So on average, based on the disease of fatal familial insomnia which essentially provides a scientific case study on the effect of complete sleep depravation on the human body. It takes 3 months before dementia sets in, and an additional 6 months after that before death occurs. So, 9 total months before dying, even though that last 6 tends to be spent in a mute unresponsive state.

So, I suggest you rework your numbers.

[factotum]

In that case, though, isn't it the disease killing them rather than lack of sleep? I'm sure I've heard of people who are, for one reason or another, totally unable to sleep, who have lived a good long time...

[Selene]

No, they just show that the Giant is prone to making the same mistake. A contraction is still two words.

Says who? Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/contraction) begs to differ with you.


American Heritage Dictionary
con·trac·tion
(kən-trāk'shən) Pronunciation Key
n.

...

2.
1. A word, as won't from will not, or phrase, as o'clock from of the clock, formed by omitting or combining some of the sounds of a longer phrase.
2. The formation of such a word.



WordNet
contraction

noun

...

3. a word formed from two or more words by omitting or combining some sounds; "'won't' is a contraction of 'will not'"; "'o'clock' is a contraction of 'of the clock'"

Emphasis mine.