V's got a pretty darn low WIS score

[imp_fireball]

It's obvious. From him/her predictions regarding nearly anything. He/she often assumes far too much, talks too much, fails to think far ahead (and with that high of an INT, one could easily go into very advanced detail on various plans when he/she does not), etc.

Thus, it appears clear that she/he has a much lower WIS than INT.

Any input on this?

[Spiryt]

Certainly. It has been clear as long ago as in 31 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html) strip.

Even though he's a genius, his brain is overally not so tasty as Roy's.

I would put his Wisdom at plain 12.Pretty average, yet no low, as he shows awareness and deep understanding sometimes.

[Theodoriph]

It's obvious. From him/her predictions regarding nearly anything. He/she often assumes far too much, talks too much, fails to think far ahead (and with that high of an INT, one could easily go into very advanced detail on various plans when he/she does not), etc.

Thus, it appears clear that she/he has a much lower WIS than INT.

Any input on this?



Probability was on V's side. Shim made the right call considering shim wanted some more xp.

[AstralFire]

Probability was on V's side. Shim made the right call considering shim wanted some more xp.

Gambling with your life at a 10% chance? Maybe if it was like 2%.

[SPoD]

In V's defense, V has been awake for anywhere between four to six months. Let's see you make coherent decisions after that long without sleep.


Gambling with your life at a 10% chance? Maybe if it was like 2%.

You missed what V said; 10% to summon, sure, but far lower chance to summon that was actually deadly to the high-level character assembled on the island (Elan, Durkon, V, Hinjo, and Lien). The OOTS are level 13-14; most devils in the monster books are lower CR than that. If Qarr had summoned a CR 9 bone devil, for example, they would have whomped it in two rounds without breaking a sweat.

[ericgrau]

Gambling with your life at a 10% chance? Maybe if it was like 2%.

Or infintessimal, not precisely but - as a simplification - "one in a million".

[AstralFire]

In V's defense, V has been awake for anywhere between four to six months. Let's see you make coherent decisions after that long without sleep.



You missed what V said; 10% to summon, sure, but far lower chance to summon that was actually deadly to the high-level character assembled on the island (Elan, Durkon, V, Hinjo, and Lien). The OOTS are level 13-14; most devils in the monster books are lower CR than that. If Qarr had summoned a CR 9 bone devil, for example, they would have whomped it in two rounds without breaking a sweat.

That is true.

[holywhippet]

From what I can see, by RAW an imp can't even summon in other devils. Which makes sense since imps are available as familiars and having a minion that can summon in more cannon fodder would be unbalanced. Even if they could, an imp should not be able to summon in something that size. I'm still not sure what it is, possibly an OOTS specific pit fiend - if it was a normal campaign world I'd think it had to be a named, high level devil.

[Bison]

From what I can see, by RAW an imp can't even summon in other devils. Which makes sense since imps are available as familiars and having a minion that can summon in more cannon fodder would be unbalanced. Even if they could, an imp should not be able to summon in something that size. I'm still not sure what it is, possibly an OOTS specific pit fiend - if it was a normal campaign world I'd think it had to be a named, high level devil.


but he isn't a monster manual imp. he is a recurring villain, so he would be advanced at the very least, but probably have class levels as well.

[Kish]

It's obvious. From him/her predictions regarding nearly anything. He/she often assumes far too much, talks too much, fails to think far ahead (and with that high of an INT, one could easily go into very advanced detail on various plans when he/she does not), etc.

Thus, it appears clear that she/he has a much lower WIS than INT.

Any input on this?
Rich confirmed a long time ago (while explaining the strip where the illithid prefers Roy's brain, to be precise) that Vaarsuvius' Wisdom and Charisma are both much lower than his/her Intelligence, yes. (That's why the illithid chose Roy--Vaarsuvius had higher Intelligence, Roy had higher and more balanced overall mental ability scores.)

[Red XIV]

In V's defense, V has been awake for anywhere between four to six months. Let's see you make coherent decisions after that long without sleep.
Unlike V, I'm actually capable of sleep.:smalltongue:

[Inhuman Bot]

Shim? damn filler.

[imp_fireball]

I would put his Wisdom at plain 12.Pretty average, yet no low, as he shows awareness and deep understanding sometimes.

In oots terms, maybe... but in RL terms, more like 8 - or 7. I'm not kidding. V's that inside his/her own head. That deep understanding likely results from INT. He/she knows theory right down pat, but secretly they might question the purpose of politics, or scientific law, or law in general, despite lawful alignment, etc. Additionally, someone with a deep understanding of math or science (not so much literature) ie., doesn't necessarily need to have a high WIS. Low WIS people, imo, don't go about willy nilly, if they're adults and have high INT scores.

TV tries to tell you a lot of people are this ignorant, but in reality hardly anyone gambles with their life at even 10%. Even a kid would be nervous. In some cases, there's reasons why they pick on the nerds. :P

To hold your hand if your not that great at fleshing out personality: High WIS people are always asking questions, whereas low WIS people are always assuming.

High WIS people can be very creative and imaginitive, often surprising others, whereas low WIS people usually take what they get. You might get a lot of 'I don't knows' or 'I guess' or 'make dos' from someone with a low WIS. Someone with a high INT but low WIS will often talk a lot because they feel what they have to say is always interesting, but in reality, they are unable to compare things with what needs to be accomplished. :P

[Spiryt]

In oots terms, maybe... but in RL terms, more like 6. I'm not kidding. V's that inside his/her own head.

TV tries to tell you a lot of people are this ignorant, but in reality hardly anyone gambles with their life at even 10%. Even a kid would be nervous. In some cases, there's reasons why they pick on the nerds. :P

Well, firstly
- OotS terms ARE reality.For them at least.

And anyway I'm not sure what you mean. What mean in RL?

10 % is not gambling with life.

Anyway from the whole comic we can estimate V in 10 wisdom range, maybe 12 is indeed to high. Hell, maybe it's as low as 8 or 9, but not 6.

[Cubey]

To hold your hand if your not that great at fleshing out personality: High WIS people are always asking questions, whereas low WIS people are always assuming.

High WIS people can be very creative and imaginitive, often surprising others, whereas low WIS people usually take what they get. You might get a lot of 'I don't knows' or 'I guess' or 'make dos' from someone with a low WIS. Someone with a high INT but low WIS will often talk a lot because they feel what they have to say is always interesting, but in reality, they are unable to compare things with what needs to be accomplished. :P

I'm pretty sure that's not what WIS is about.

[Kabarakh]

INT: brain's power (how good can you think)
CHA: apperance's power (how do you look, act...)
WIS: sense's power (how good do you notice your surroundings, know how to react...)

this is WIS about ;) and I personally don't think ANY of the OotS (ok, Haley maybe) could have a high WIS-score... so why should a Wizard have, when not even the ranger has?

[factotum]

Why would anybody expect V to have a decent Wisdom? Of all the OotS characters, he seems the most specialised, and Wisdom doesn't help a wizard cast his spells.

[Cubey]

What he said. Some people oversimplify matters by saying INT is "academic smarts" and WIS is "street smarts", which is untrue and I usually laugh at them - but even in this situation, WIS is nothing about imagination or taking things for how they are. I think the poster tries to demonise high INT/low WIS characters as cold, 100% logically thinking living robots.
As for life-gambling, as it was said - 10% chance of summoning a demon is not the same thing as a 10% chance of risking your life. Many summonable demons are very weak for the V and friends' levels.

Sidenote: as far as imagination and wisdom goes, the most creative fictional character I can point out (Azumanga Daioh's Osaka) has absolutely ABYSSMAL Wisdom.

[hamishspence]

Durkon does, or he could not cast spells. Roy does, according to the deva who tried his case.

Belkar's is low, cos he needs a Wis boost to use scrolls.

[RebelRogue]

It doesn't matter much anyway: you don't get extra XP for defeating monsters summoned by enemies: it's part of the original monster's CR. I guess lacking knowledge about this would signify low Int... My guess is that Rich forgot this particular rule, though.

[Spiryt]

Here's about wisdom from SRD:


Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition


Wisdom: Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score.

While V certainly lacks in perception and sometimes common sense, his will power,self-control, intutiona and empathy for example are not so bad.

[Kaytara]

Here's about wisdom from SRD:

While V certainly lacks in perception and sometimes common sense, his will power,self-control, intutiona and empathy for example are not so bad.

Seconded. Although, to be true, I think V's main flaw is more a problem of too much intelligence in comparison to wisdom rather than an actually too low wisdom score. V has dedicated his life to magic and is used to logical, rationalised thinking. He also expects the world to work logically. He just tends to forget that they're the main characters of a story, which makes logic null and void in a lot of cases.

Concerning common sense, as it has been said, logic was entirely on V's side. Some people still don't get it... V wasn't gambling with all their lives on a 10% chance. There was a 10% chance that Qarr would succeed in summoning an ally at all, and even then it would most likely be something they'd be able to handle easily. It was that ally actually being a threat to the characters that had a "one in a very big number" probability. Such as the probability of being hit by a random bolt of lightning, it's something any rational person wouldn't think twice about.

I do think that V's wisdom is comparatively high, something like 11 or 12. He's been shown to be very empathic and intuitive on several occasions. He was the first to realise Haley was in love with Elan. As for being intuitive and perceptive, when Haley regained her speech, it was Vaarsuvius who realised why, and not Durkon, whose wisdom is probably twice as high as V's.

Besides, V seems to have an excellent will save vs. fear. Not once in the entire comic has he been shown to be in actual panic and unable to control himself. Not even when they were attacked by a chimera, not when he was a tiny lizard one-on-one with a black dragon, not when the trees attacked, when even Durkon turned and ran away screaming in fear, leaving V to do all the work by himself with a 1d4 hit die. Granted, Durkon's phobia of trees probably provided a penalty, but still.
Even when faced with the sight of the entire hobgoblin army running at the handful of defenders, V kept a cool head.

Of course, wizard IS a high will save class, but so is cleric....

When thinking about this, an 'average' WIS score for V almost seems too low. But let's say average. Not low per se, but not high enough to make up for his overly academical mindset.

[hamishspence]

We know V lacks Charisma from "but my Charisma is.." "NOT my problem"

Wis? harder to confirm.

[Spiryt]

Seconded. <put stuff here>

Seconded as well :smallbiggrin:

[Tempest Fennac]

Rich said at the time of the Mindflayer comic that V has average Wis and low Cha, while Roy has very good Int and Wis and abover average Cha. I tend to assume that V has about 13 for Wis at the most (to be fair, s/he honestly appears to have less common sense then Belkar sometimes).

[hamishspence]

there are metaphorical references: Belkar's Int compared to table, in Paladin blues bonus strip concerning dog intelligence of 2 "So does Elan and no-one expects me to train him" etc.

Class and Geekery goes into more detail, but suffice to say Belkar's Wis cannot be THAT low, or he could not cast spells even with boost. Maybe his Int.

[Spiryt]

there are metaphorical references: Belkar's Int compared to table, in Paladin blues bonus strip concerning dog intelligence of 2 "So does Elan and no-one expects me to train him" etc.

Class and Geekery goes into more detail, but suffice to say Belkar's Wis cannot be THAT low, or he could not cast spells even with boost. Maybe his Int.

Belkar have wisdom penalty, and I think it's save to assume that it's 8. Lower doesn't feally fit.

About his Int - it's actually probably above average. V's insults aren't really good source - his behaviour and comments like " too clever - in is own braind damaged way" seem more plausible.

[hamishspence]

comparison might need a mix of use of INT based skills, plus references from others than V.

Speech patterns are circumstantial evidence, but not proof. Elan is sometimes referred to as low INT, but its hard to say if he really is, or if low Wis would explain it better.

[only1doug]

V's Wisdom is pretty low in my opinion


there are examples of V's lack of wisdom in his habit of verbosity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0010.html) at critical times
OotPC's spoiler

V spends 50 minutes of his 1 hr prep time talking and ends up rushing the spell as a result.


hmm, V would make a good villain due to his habit of monologuing

[hamishspence]

Could be lack of charisma reacting with lack of wisdom in unexpected ways.

People who bore others with monologues might be being uncharismatic.

I'd put his wisdom higher than charisma, but not high enough to give a bonus: 9 to 11 would be ballpark figures.

[Kaytara]

V's Wisdom is pretty low in my opinion


there are examples of V's lack of wisdom in his habit of verbosity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0010.html) at critical times
OotPC's spoiler

V spends 50 minutes of his 1 hr prep time talking and ends up rushing the spell as a result.




59 minutes, actually.

Good times, good times. :smallbiggrin: Actually, while those two occasions were clearly played for comedic effect, it's worth noting that V's verboseness seems to have gone down with time. He's still overly elaborate and precise, but no longer goes on verbal monologue rampages many strips long and if he does, he
doesn't let it impede his combat abilities. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html)



hmm, V would make a short-lived villain due to his habit of monologuing

Fixed that for you. XD

[only1doug]

hehe, i play more often than i GM these days (one of our group prefers to GM) so to me the only good Villain is a long winded one.

I do have fond memories of playing a rather stupid giant fighter type, i met the villain. he started to expound his monologue, I waited patiently for a bit (maybe 2 rounds) then started showing signs of boredom (he was low int but polite enough to listen until he got bored) after 2 further rounds of villain waffling and PC showing more and more symptoms of boredom (i was bashing my club against the wall) i finally had enough and thawacked the villain with my club...

... critting and killing him in one blow.

[AWM]

I don’t think that V’s wisdom score is necessarily low, V isn’t to blame for the fact that the DM has railroaded this encounter. I feel that V as a character is statistically well rounded, but often the victim of circumstance.

Speculating on V’s stat build, I would surmise V would opt for an above average wisdom to aid in Will saves.


-awm

[only1doug]

Meh, use wisdom as a dump stat and get the feat that allows you to use your int as your will save stat.

[Laurentio II]

Almost any proof of Vaarsuvius supposed low Wisdom seems caused by one, or more, of the the following:

Being the caricature of an elf;
Being the caricature of a wizard;
Being obsessed with power;
Refuse to think that the DM can "cheat" the world rules and happening, all the time
Last one is nothing like low Wisdom, is just that some people believe in rules, as a trait of personality. If all knowledge says that an Imp can't summon a huge demon 99,99999% of time, you expect it to NOT happen.

My opinion is that Vaarsuvius is of normal wisdom, but can't just resist to the lure of power. This count as a disadvantage only in specific events, like this, while on overall, is not a reason to lower wisdom.

[hamishspence]

I've seen feat for Charisma Will, but not Int will. What was it?

[LtPowers]

Even when faced with the sight of the entire hobgoblin army running at the handful of defenders, V kept a cool head.

Considering what actually happened, I daresay that's evidence of low wisdom, not high. =)


Powers &8^]

[Tempest Fennac]

I've not heard of that either. What's the Cha-based feat called? Also, wouldn't Reflex or Fortitude saves need to be boosted more due to V being a Wizard?

[hamishspence]

Complete Adventurer, Force of Personality, just needs Cha 13 to qualify. Sounds like something Elan could do with, if his Wis is the reason for his somewhat wacky behaviour.

[Linkavitch]

Yeah, V's incredibly smart, but can be such a colossal Idiot sometimes.

[Callista]

Consider he may also be taking wisdom damage from lack of "sleep". It's not an actual rule, but considering he's also preparing spells somehow, there has to be a tradeoff somewhere.

[brilliantlight]

I think V has an average Wis score and the Iron Will feat.

[AlexanderRM]

Of course, wizard IS a high will save class, but so is cleric....



Which explains why Durkon has only once actually panicked, in the event of living trees. And, really, it would have been surprising to see him NOT panic. Perhaps he succeeded on his will save, but is still running away out of rational concern for his life?

[Kaytara]

Hm. Average wisdom an an extra feat that boosted his willpower seems reasonable enough. Would V waste a feat on something that doesn't directly improve his spellcasting abilities, though?


Which explains why Durkon has only once actually panicked, in the event of living trees. And, really, it would have been surprising to see him NOT panic. Perhaps he succeeded on his will save, but is still running away out of rational concern for his life?

I don't think so. XD If he were in any rational state of mind, maybe he'd try to organize a strategic retreat. But then, if he were thinking rationally, he'd also realize that he was deserting a fellow party member (something Durkon, as a dwarf, is vehemently against) who probably won't last long without a meatshield. If he did flee while thinking clearly, Durkon probably would have dragged V with him.

[eilandesq]

Complete Adventurer, Force of Personality, just needs Cha 13 to qualify. Sounds like something Elan could do with, if his Wis is the reason for his somewhat wacky behaviour.

It's not a panacea--it only works for "Will saves against mind-affecting spells and abilities"--but for someone like Elan it would obviously be an insanely useful feat. . .which means that he'd never have taken it before he learned the joys of being effective when he took his Dashing Swordsman level. Maybe someone can talk him into taking it at 15th level. . .:smallsmile:

[holywhippet]

I suspect it's not a lack of wisdom, but lack of ranks in Knowledge: literary conventions.

[hamishspence]

Given that he managed to fail his will save against Nale's Suggestion (which should be pretty poor: multiclass character) thats an example of where feat would have helped him. So, probably doesn't have it. Could do with getting it at some point.

[dragongirl13]

4 words: Ability Score Purchase System

She spent all her points on Dex, Con and Int, leaving Str, Wis and Cha at average or below.

[shadowpriest]

I can't help but notice that wisdom also recalls the power to remember things. either i forgot all i read about Oots, or V's memory is at least "human"-sized.
i'd point a 10 on wisdom. regarding charisma... well... all my characters in D&D had the same charisma as a dire boar (not joking: usually 8 or 9) so i can understand V's struggle to interact well with others.

[Desilva]

In oots terms, maybe... but in RL terms, more like 8 - or 7. I'm not kidding. V's that inside his/her own head. That deep understanding likely results from INT. He/she knows theory right down pat, but secretly they might question the purpose of politics, or scientific law, or law in general, despite lawful alignment, etc. Additionally, someone with a deep understanding of math or science (not so much literature) ie., doesn't necessarily need to have a high WIS. Low WIS people, imo, don't go about willy nilly, if they're adults and have high INT scores.

TV tries to tell you a lot of people are this ignorant, but in reality hardly anyone gambles with their life at even 10%. Even a kid would be nervous. In some cases, there's reasons why they pick on the nerds. :P

To hold your hand if your not that great at fleshing out personality: High WIS people are always asking questions, whereas low WIS people are always assuming.

High WIS people can be very creative and imaginitive, often surprising others, whereas low WIS people usually take what they get. You might get a lot of 'I don't knows' or 'I guess' or 'make dos' from someone with a low WIS. Someone with a high INT but low WIS will often talk a lot because they feel what they have to say is always interesting, but in reality, they are unable to compare things with what needs to be accomplished. :P



This is very biased toward the wisdom score in general. My guess is that you consistently score between 110-130 on I.Q. tests and you tout a high personal Wisdom to make it seem not all that bad, failing to realize that I.Q. tests are in general a waste of time.

This discussion doesn't really work, because so much is dependent on personal interpretation of things. All we over-thinkers can really do is state our own opinions of what each stat represents and make our cases based on that. But there's little actual argument possible because our opinions will seldom match.

That doesn't mean it's not fun, though!

The way I see it, the Int and Wis abilities overlap. A man with a high Intelligence can use his ability to analyze to appear wise and perceptive, while a man with a high Wisdom may be able to notice certain details others wouldn't, making him appear deeply intelligent. It takes experience and scrutiny to know the difference between them.

And it gets even more complicated when one considers Charisma. As far as I have been able to theorize, the three abilities form an overlapping trifecta with a small zone in the middle for the true geniuses that have high scores in all three abilities.

For me, Intelligence represents analysis, information processing, and memory. Wisdom represents perception and willpower, and Charisma covers interactions with other people and physical attractiveness. I could also list the ways in which the abilities overlap, but it's time to disengage my brain and watch porn.

Next week: Morality and its subtleties.

[Zolem]

From what I can see, by RAW an imp can't even summon in other devils. Which makes sense since imps are available as familiars and having a minion that can summon in more cannon fodder would be unbalanced. Even if they could, an imp should not be able to summon in something that size. I'm still not sure what it is, possibly an OOTS specific pit fiend - if it was a normal campaign world I'd think it had to be a named, high level devil.

He states that he had a favor token to call in that specific huge devil 1 time.

[FatJose]

Well, I don't know about V. It might just be that it was sooo unlikely. I mean, theorists say that because everything in the universe is technically loose particles there's an almost impossibly miniscule chance that you could simply "fall through a crack in the universe and burst ito a billion particles" just because. Even with that theory, if you saw it happen the reaction would be "thats impossible!"

Well, to take an excerpt from the PHB on roleplaying based on mental stats
A character with high intelligence but low Wisdom may be smart but absent-minded, or knowledgeable but lacking in common sense. A character with high intelligence but low Charisma may be a know-it-all or a reclusive scholar. A smart character lacking Wisdom or Charisma may put her foot in her mouth often.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Shim? damn filler.


That word is a mish-mash of "she" and "him" used to address gender-ambiguous characters. It seems to be used interchangeably with him/her and he/she.

And what filler? Are you talking about the comic? Oh...you mean the 10 character limit.