So what CR do you think that is?

[krossbow]

in the most recent comics, a obviously powerful devil has been summoned. Given its collossal size, and the fact that its powerful enough to put a combined force of lien, durkon, V, Elan, Hinjo, and a number of other paladins in jeopardy, its certainly a very powerful being.




In fact, given the level of most of the paladins so far (assuming hinjo is as powerful as Miko, who was able to defeat redcloak prior to xycon stepping in), this beast might even be on a level similiar to xycon.



What CR do you think this one is?

[David Argall]

CR=excessive. Party should run away, but won't

[chiasaur11]

in the most recent comics, a obviously powerful devil has been summoned. Given its collossal size, and the fact that its powerful enough to put a combined force of lien, durkon, V, Elan, Hinjo, and a number of other paladins in jeopardy, its certainly a very powerful being.




In fact, given the level of most of the paladins so far (assuming hinjo is as powerful as Miko, who was able to defeat redcloak prior to xycon stepping in), this beast might even be on a level similiar to xycon.



What CR do you think this one is?

I'm not sure there are that many paladins in this group. Just nitpicking.

[ThreeEyedOni]

CR=excessive. Party should run away, but won't

Exactly. Whatever the recomended CR for the current group is, I'd say that this is about +5 above it. AKA something that cannot be taken head-on by them and be considered survivable (in the sense that "main" characters would not be expected to survive).

A Marilith is CR17, and a Balor is CR20. I'd say that this one is at least an 18 or 19, but that all depends. I'd say it might even be over that, simply based on the fact that its likely able to pose a threat to the entire fleet of ships, something that a Marilith would not be.

[Chronos]

A Marilith is CR17, and a Balor is CR20. I'd say that this one is at least an 18 or 19, but that all depends. I'd say it might even be over that, simply based on the fact that its likely able to pose a threat to the entire fleet of ships, something that a Marilith would not be.Nitpick: Mariliths and Balors are demons, not devils. For this, we'd be looking at something like a Cornugon (CR 16) or a Pit Fiend (CR 20).

[PaladinFreak]

Off the top of my head I can't think of any devil who is that big, so it is probably a unique monster.

[ThreeEyedOni]

Nitpick: Mariliths and Balors are demons, not devils. For this, we'd be looking at something like a Cornugon (CR 16) or a Pit Fiend (CR 20).

Meh. I just went with the two easiest examples.

Also, who remembers what a Curnugon is, at the drop at the hat? I didn't. :P

/prepares to get roasted by those that do

[ericgrau]

+2 CR per size increase
+1 CR per 2 HD
+54 HD (18 per size increase), 3 size increases
CR 53 pit fiend :smallbiggrin:

It's probably just an exaggeration and/or other story element. Heck, Durkon looks huge not large when he casts Thor's Might, even though the spell should only give 1 size increase. Ditto for mass enlarge person.

[Mastikator]

Honestly, that looks like it's an epic devil, or a demi-god. I estimate their only chance of survival is if it doesn't notice them.

[Jayngfet]

It looks like a really big pit fiend, so one on one you'd need an epic character.

I wonder if a bunch of fifteenth levels and some mooks could stop it.

[krossbow]

It'd be funny if the dashing swordsman class got some special bonus for fighting monsters above his CR level (like a +1 to hit/damage/AC for every CR over his level), though that would make elan a mary sue.





Either way, yeah, truth be told this thing looks like a devilish overlord got summoned or something.


Discounting that and assuming it were a pit lord though, it could probably still Blasphemy spam the groups even if its a normal cr 20.

[Spiky]

I think it's his uncle. The big, scary one.

[Kiara LeSabre]

It's either far too powerful for them or, in an unexpected twist, pathetically weak despite looking powerful.

Maybe it's a CW samurai/monk devil. :smalleek:

[Winged One]

This is it's CR (http://llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/target35.html). Warning: profanity.

[Laurentio II]

I see two endings: running away very very fast or using a simple dismiss scroll; otherwise, Vaarsuvious will calculate that the demon/devil CR is high enough to allow him a new level. And this would bring to a massive game-breaking trick to defeat (not necessarily killing) it.

[Red XIV]

CR=excessive. Party should run away, but won't
Actually, running away is the Order of the Stick's oldest, most reliable strategy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html).

[Chronos]

Discounting that and assuming it were a pit lord though, it could probably still Blasphemy spam the groups even if its a normal cr 20.Actually, this brings up an interesting possibility: The big nasty repeatedly tries to Blasphemy the heros, but Elan keep countersonging it (since Blasphemy is a sonic effect) for long enough for the others to dispatch it by more conventional means. After the battle, Vaarsuvius starts to point out that a bard's countersong only works on things that allow a save (which Blasphemy doesn't), but Durkon quickly hushes em.

[Occasional Sage]

Judging by the book's cover, this is a CR=TPK encounter. That said, I like Kiara's plot twist more. Chronos has a more OotS-esque suggestion, though. Especially with the BBEG trying to protest, and being interrupted by repeated Paladin Smites.

[AceOfFools]

Going on my gut, I'm guessing that it's just an illusion.

A baseless assumption, but my guess none the less.

[Lorn]

It'd be funny if the dashing swordsman class got some special bonus for fighting monsters above his CR level (like a +1 to hit/damage/AC for every CR over his level), though that would make elan a mary sue.
Maybe he DOES get a bonus, but only if facing it by himself and guarding the retreat of everyone else - You Shall Not Pass-esque thing?

Nothing like as powerful as what you suggest, but to be fair, the thing is HUGE. How easily is something that massive going to hit anyone? I mean, we can't hit flies too easily - they're too fast. Perhaps that thing is slowed by its size, meaning Elan - who, what with Dashing Swordsman, could have a few ranks in Tumble (which I'd assume is a class skill, allow for saving a few skill points perhaps as well) would easily be able to avoid.

Then V casts a Greater Invisibility spell on everyone and comes back without Elan noticing in the hope that he regains his bonuses, aaand the paladins Smite Evil in a repeated fashion.

... then cue jokes about only hitting the feet.

[Kaytara]

Note the HUGE balls of fire in its hands, each larger than the rowboat on the coast. I bet they deal ranged AoE damage, too... Even if the monster is too big and bulky to hit them (then again, Elan is the only one with decent dodging skills, so stomping on V or Durkon shouldn't be a problem for the monster....), it can still turn the whole island into a burning inferno very quickly before blasting them to smithereens.

Also, their oldest, most reliable strategy probably won't do them much good at this point. Running endangers the fleet, so running is both something that the paladins won't allow, and something that won't do them much good, since the monster will just sink Hinjo's junk, instead.

[krossbow]

Note the HUGE balls of fire in its hands, each larger than the rowboat on the coast. I bet they deal ranged AoE damage, too... Even if the monster is too big and bulky to hit them (then again, Elan is the only one with decent dodging skills, so stomping on V or Durkon shouldn't be a problem for the monster....), it can still turn the whole island into a burning inferno very quickly before blasting them to smithereens.

Also, their oldest, most reliable strategy probably won't do them much good at this point. Running endangers the fleet, so running is both something that the paladins won't allow, and something that won't do them much good, since the monster will just sink Hinjo's junk, instead.



reminds me of how doctor doom beat spiderman. He got tired of him jumping around, so he just brought a building down on him and called it done.

[Inhuman Bot]

Who's Xycon?

For it's CR? Epic. It's either something reaaallly strong, or possibly worse, a pit fiend advanced to max size. It would have over 150 Hd then, I belive. Or it could be something really weak, making a larger anticlimax then #100.

[snoopy13a]

Since OotS is a comedy, I wouldn't be surprised if the devil's bark is much greater then his bite. So, I'm going to say the devil is a pushover.

[kpenguin]

the monster will just sink Hinjo's junk, instead.

I suppose that "Hinjo's Junk" will be getting very warm, very soon.

[Studoku]

It's over NINE THOUSAAAAND

Someone had to say it.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

Who's Xycon?

Xykon's good lich twin brother. He only appears in War and XP's. :smallbiggrin:

[Inhuman Bot]

Oh, right. his triplet is Xyon, right?:smalltongue:

[KilltheToy]

:Um..well...

It's greater than 5. I can say with confidence it will be bigger than 5 :smallwink:.

[Studoku]

Oh, right. his triplet is Xyon, right?:smalltongue:
There's also Zykon, Xyklon and Zykolion

[dps]

I'm not sure there are that many paladins in this group. Just nitpicking.

It's just Hinjo and Lien. All the rest of the Sapphire Guard was in the throne room when it went BOOM except for a few who were away on missions at the time.

And BTW, Hinjo was considered the second most powerful paladin in the Sapphire Guard after Miko.

[TARINunit9]

Hmmm... based on it's size, flaming hands, and low intelligence, I'd say around............ (calculating)... Challenge rating 19. If it was smarter, I'd say 20, but its low wisdom is evident by bad cardplay.

[EyethatBinds]

Well... since it is a pit fiend and a pit fiend's CR is 20 I'd say that we don't have much to discuss. But then again pointless speculation is the hallmark of the internet, so have fun.

[LordVader]

There's only one possibility for the CR, really.
http://cjblackwing.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/over9000.jpg
In all honesty, that's probably not too far off the mark here.

[Chronos]

Well... since it is a pit fiend and a pit fiend's CR is 20 I'd say that we don't have much to discuss.How do you know it's a pit fiend?

[EyethatBinds]

How do you know it's a pit fiend?

Pretty simple. Kubota is lawful, there are very few winged creatures that can be summoned amongst the neutral evil crowd, and Quaar keeps telling Therklia to follow orders. If his human master is lawful, he serves lawful ends, and can summon? Ba'atezu.

Winged giant creature with fire in his hands that is too dangerous for the party to face? Pit Fiend.

[AlexanderRM]

Well... since it is a pit fiend and a pit fiend's CR is 20 I'd say that we don't have much to discuss. But then again pointless speculation is the hallmark of the internet, so have fun.
#1. I'd be willing to bet that a pit fiend has incredibly high intelligence. This thing? Does not.
#2. Almost certainly Colossal size. Pit fiends are LARGE. LARGE.
#3. OOTS doesn't follow core rules very well anyway, so there would be a good chance in any case that it's just a generic "Big tough devil thing".


Also, as to its' CR? Really, really high. I'd say only in the 20s, though, since it's power is being implied by its' size, and there are other things that can be that large... though not very many. :smalleek:

[EyethatBinds]

Though I do find it funny that V tells them to wait so he can summon a creature so they might garner some measure of experience from the encounter. Summoned monsters aren't worth experience elf.

A guy makes one little mistake and suddenly he's dumb [card game]? I think you're reading too much into a single statement. Plus in a world where goblins are medium, dwarves can grow 15 feet tall, and other randomadjustments to height I just assumed that the devil got a boost to maintain some verisimilitude.

[Chronos]

Though I do find it funny that V tells them to wait so he can summon a creature so they might garner some measure of experience from the encounter. Summoned monsters aren't worth experience elf.When was that?

[paladin_carvin]

Tsk tsk, this is really a simple question!


The CR is 2. Or so. Oh yes, you know why? It's a summoned creature. There is no bonus to CR from the dude. All you get is the imp's CR, which should be about 2. Maybe a bit higher, since it may have class levels or something.

[Pie Guy]

Regardless, OotS will win anyway, because, it's a 1 in a 1000000 chance.
And 1 in a 1000000 chances always succeed. Probably a dashing swordsman ability.

[Theodoriph]

Tsk tsk, this is really a simple question!


The CR is 2. Or so. Oh yes, you know why? It's a summoned creature. There is no bonus to CR from the dude. All you get is the imp's CR, which should be about 2. Maybe a bit higher, since it may have class levels or something.



It's not a CR 2. The imp gets a massive CR adjustment for having a chit to summon a likely CR 20 or so monster. So the imp is really a CR 20 or so encounter...and well, since he fled the battle, OOTS gets experience for defeating him :D

[T-O-E]

#2. Almost certainly Colossal size. Pit fiends are LARGE. LARGE.


You can't judge the type of Demon/Devil by estimating its size. Remember, in this world, goblins are medium-sized.

This must be like my first post today that doesn't start with "The Giant".

[paladin_carvin]

Well, the imp would not get all the way up to the CR of the fiend for two reasons: 1) Summoned creatures are weak to being dispelled and dismissed, so it's not the same as truly encountering them. 2) There is only a 10% chance of him summoning anything, which makes it not that important of an ability 3) The imp is using his own resources (of some sort) to get that particular fiend.

Obviously, a normal imp can't summon something like this normally, so it must be stronger to have access to the resources to manage this... but still, bad luck does not mean a CR is higher.

[Theodoriph]

Well, the imp would not get all the way up to the CR of the fiend for two reasons: 1) Summoned creatures are weak to being dispelled and dismissed, so it's not the same as truly encountering them. 2) There is only a 10% chance of him summoning anything, which makes it not that important of an ability 3) The imp is using his own resources (of some sort) to get that particular fiend.

Obviously, a normal imp can't summon something like this normally, so it must be stronger to have access to the resources to manage this... but still, bad luck does not mean a CR is higher.



1) The imp had a 100% chance of enlisting the aid of this creature. V thought the imp had a 10% chance. Shim was wrong. The imp had a 100% chance.

2) I don't think this is a traditional summoned creature from a summon creature spell, so I don't think dispel magic would work. That being said, like any extra-planar creature, it can be banished and such, but that wouldn't make too much of a dent in its CR. Actually, might not make a difference at all. I'm not sure if Wizards took that into account when crafting CR levels or whether it's assumed you'll be meeting the creature on its home plane. I'd assume they took it into account, since that would mean a DM would have to do a lot of adjusting.



"Obviously, a normal imp can't summon something like this normally, so it must be stronger to have access to the resources to manage this... but still, bad luck does not mean a CR is higher."

Ummmes, yes it does. The DMs guide specifically states that. If you run into a level 1 kobold fighter that is wearing leather armor +1000 that makes him immune to critical hits, a ring of 5000 damage/round in a 1000 foot radius (excluding the kobold's square) and another ring that generates an anti-magic field with exceptions for the other two items (all given to him as a gift by Tiamat), then guess what, that measly kobold isn't a CR 1 anymore.

Of course it works the same way with PCs. Naked parties (a common theme...getting kidnapped and having your equipment stolen) shouldn't be fighting things equal to their traditional CR.

Dnd is a reasonable system. It accounts for items.

And no, the imp doesn't have to be stronger than a regular imp. Strength has nothing to do with it. It won a poker game against a dimwitted brute...no extra strength required. :P

[paladin_carvin]

When a creature is able to summon in ability fashion (ie, a demon, hag coven...) it adds to their CR, which would mean that the fight with such a thing would be part of the CR of the summoner. I think this works closer to planar ally... so I don't know if dispel would work (can't remember). He may have a more powerful ally spell (just about all fiends can summon other fiends of their type) than his fellow imps, but it's still the imp that they are defeating. While defeating the fiend won't give CR directly, they have 'won' the encounter, since the imp ran away, still giving XP. I think...

Then again, the nature of the fiend coming because he lost at gambling brings in the idea that it was, in some form, directly payed for this service. In which case, it would be like hired minions. It would essentially just be Qarr teleporting an ally into battle.
---
Edit: Er, I guess I should mention that imps really do have that ability and that it is normal for them to attempt to summon something. Also, when I mention 'strength' I mean in a general sense. Obviously, it was really cunning that got him to enlist the brute (and cahones... making someone far up the chain work for you takes guts). Being able to summon a fellow fiend is part of the imp's CR, being able to summon something that amazing is not.

[Theodoriph]

When a creature...


In my eyes, the imp didn't summon anything with a traditional summon spell. He just rang his friend up on the telephone and said something to the effect of, "Remember that debt you owe me. I'm calling it in." And so his friend grudgingly came to help him out.

I don't even see summon on the list of imp abilities. Some devils have the ability, but not all of them. Imps are one of the ones that don't it appears.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm

Even if he could, a CR 2 cannot normally summon a CR20ish as you mentioned. Thus, I don't think this is a true summoning.

I guess I'd have to go more with the some kind of ally/hired merc theory. Which I suppose would mean that they'd actually need to defeat the thing to get XP and can't just bum it off the imp running away. :smallfrown:

[paladin_carvin]

Hmm... appears you are right. I'm kinda shocked that the imp doesn't have the summon spell-like ability. But, it seems you are right. Still, the percentile bit seems to connected it to some sort of ability, not simply a merc contact. But, that's just a theory. Which, indeed, would fit with V's assumption: it had a percentile chance to summon based on the fact that it is a devil.

[Theodoriph]

Hmm... appears you are right. I'm kinda shocked that the imp doesn't have the summon spell-like ability. But, it seems you are right. Still, the percentile bit seems to connected it to some sort of ability, not simply a merc contact. But, that's just a theory. Which, indeed, would fit with V's assumption: it had a percentile chance to summon based on the fact that it is a devil.


An imp is a CR 2. So the fact that they don't have a summon-spell like ability isn't too shocking. The "summon devil" special ability has a spell level depending on the devil casting it. The lowest spell level given is 3 to summon 2d10 CR 1 devils. It can be cast by a CR 5 devil.

So the notion that a CR 2 monster doesn't get a summon ability isn't strange at all. Imps are already invisible, have damage reduction etc. Anything it could summon (re: CR 1 devils...even 2 of them) could drastically affect the battle if it's a level appropriate encounter (re: Level 2 party), whereas if you're fighting a CR 5, 2d10 CR 1s aren't really all that scary.



I can't think of a summon ability that gives a 10% chance. The lowest I saw is 20% for devils. I honestly think V had absolutely no clue what was going on and her words and statistics can't be taken as fact. I believe the imp had a 100% chance of calling in his favour. I don't think the devil rolled a percentile and could have said (if he rolled poorly...or well, from his point of view), "Nope, sorry...not going to repay my gambling debt this time." I think the imp just contacted him via the marker and if the big guy is a devil (and lawful), then his appearance was guaranteed.

[paladin_carvin]

An imp is a CR 2. So the fact that they don't have a summon-spell like ability isn't too shocking. The "summon devil" special ability has a spell level depending on the devil casting it. The lowest spell level given is 3 to summon 2d10 CR 1 devils. It can be cast by a CR 5 devil.

So the notion that a CR 2 monster doesn't get a summon ability isn't strange at all. Imps are already invisible, have damage reduction etc. Anything it could summon (re: CR 1 devils...even 2 of them) could drastically affect the battle if it's a level appropriate encounter (re: Level 2 party), whereas if you're fighting a CR 5, 2d10 CR 1s aren't really all that scary.



I can't think of a summon ability that gives a 10% chance. The lowest I saw is 20% for devils. I honestly think V had absolutely no clue what was going on and her words and statistics can't be taken as fact. I believe the imp had a 100% chance of calling in his favour. I don't think the devil rolled a percentile and could have said (if he rolled poorly...or well, from his point of view), "Nope, sorry...not going to repay my gambling debt this time." I think the imp just contacted him via the marker and if the big guy is a devil (and lawful), then his appearance was guaranteed.

I think there was a demon with a summon rate about that low... but I dunno. I'm tending to agree with you now about the reality is this was not a summon as much as a summands, ie 'hey, get over here *magic*'. Still, V may have thought the imp could have the said ability and guess 10% because of the creature's weakness.

[EyethatBinds]

Today's comic proves my earlier point pretty well. Because well.. meteor swarm. So now we're arguing about the little devil's CR? Its an Imp kids, do we have to have this discussion over again?

You take an Imp add an ability for humor value and then remember that the author doesn't have to doll out experience at the end of each story arc per encounter. Bam! CR doesn't matter, it uses invisibility therefore Imp.

[nowiwantmydmg]

Level 28 Solo Brute.

Someone had to be the smartass.