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Frosty
2008-08-14, 02:10 AM
Ok, so there's a tournament style game going when where I assume ther ewill be PVP, except I don't know whether it'll be one on one or team vs team. The best thing is: There is absolutely no MAGIC except from items!

That's right. In this arena, everyone else will have NO classes that grant spellcasting (spell-less variants are allowed), so there's a LOT of saves you don't have to worry about. Everyone else is either a melee or ranged class just like you, although LA and Racial HD are allowed (but placed in such a way that makes them slightly less attractive than otherwise). ToB is of course allowed, so I'm wondering what builds would be good in this kind of situation.

My stats are:[17] [14] [16] [13] [11] [10] and I can re-arrange if I wish.

I've got a few ideas myself, but I'm thinking the Pixie of Invisibility would break the spirit of the Law. So far my ideas are Warblade/Factotum (ignore spellcasting), Warblade/Crusader (have the Crusader slots be filled with all boosts and counters and stuff), or some sort of creature that is good at at hiding and move-silently, combining it with the Dark Template (but I don't know if it's allowed) and the Darkstalker feat, and find some way to get concealment all the time so I can perma-hide.

Covered In Bees
2008-08-14, 02:17 AM
One side should be Crusader 13/Warblade 1/(Unarmed) Swordsage 1/Master of Nine 5, which is basically the ultimate melee build. Don't forget teleports and other ways to get past reach + Thicket of Blades.

Alternatively, you could go for the ridiculous cheese which is Aptitude Kukris (with Improved Crit) being used to qualify for the Lightning Mace feat, which will then apply to the kukris. Way too many bonus attacks are a go.

Make the other side Warblade. You can go Warblade 20 and fit in Soulknife 1 instead of Warblade 1 on the other side, to qualify for Deep Impact, which is brutal combined with power attack and maneuvers (Diamond Nightmare Blade as a touch attack + full two-handed Power Attack = +160 damage on top of 4x your normal attack damage).

Frosty
2008-08-14, 02:22 AM
Oh yeah, level 15 starting.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-08-14, 03:19 AM
Option 1: Racial Spellcasting Hacks
(You probably won't even consider this, but someone else may try it so be aware of it.) Play a Hatchling Phaerimm (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040313a), you'll get Sorcerer spellcasting as a racial ability equal to your hit dice, including class levels. Immoth (MM2, updated (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a)) is another good option due to unlimited free action spells from Ice Runes.

Option 2: Ranged
Make a War Hulk/Hulking Hurler. Half-Ogre from Races of Destiny is the lowest LA large size race, apart from Half-Minoutar (Dragon 313, completely broken). Centaur is another good option due to being a quadruped. You'll be guaranteed to one-shot anything you're up against. Focus the other side of your build toward survivability, martial adept levels are definitely good for that.

Option 3: Melee
Int 10, Wis 9, Rogue 3/ Cleric 1/ Psion 1/ Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) 6/ anything 4// Shadow Creature (LoM) LA +2/ Martial Adept 13, take Practiced Manifester at Psion 1, you won't be able to use any powers or spells with those ability scores. Get Mind Cripple from Psychic Assassin, and dual-wield +1 Aptitude Kukris of Subtlety (as Sword of Subtlety, DMG, 20k gp for the property) with Lightning Mace. They'll get to Int 0 and be disabled/comatose, regardless of their HP or buffs that prevent death at 0 HP like Deathless Frenzy (which is amazing in tournaments if you stack Extend Rage). Get UMD and Scrolls/Wand/Staff of Heightened Deeper Darkness, only a Heightened Daylight will be able to overcome it, take the Baator domain (SC) so you can see through it unhindered, and you'll always have total concealment, which may as well be unbeatable invisibility as they'll never be able to see you.

Siegel
2008-08-14, 03:47 AM
Totemist 10 / Totem Ranger 10 // Barbarian 5 / Frenzied Berserker 10 / Crusader 5

or something like that maybe ?

namo
2008-08-14, 06:39 AM
If it's one on one:
get Imperious Command (Drow of the Underdark) and a Fearsome armor from the same book. Max Intimidate (buy a Crystal Mask of Dread).
Each round, intimidate them as a move action : they cower. Use a maneuver as a standard action. Repeat.

Eldariel
2008-08-14, 08:46 AM
One side should probably have Eternal Blade. The other should perhaps take Master of the Nine. Other than that, you'll probably want some Barbarian+Prestige-levels, Charger-capabilities and preferably Elusive Target. Ranged Weapon Mastery would be sweet too, for when you want to rain 100000000 tons of death on opponent instead of smashing their heads in. Oh yeah, and I'd probably take at least 8 levels of Factotum on one side. In fact, Factotum is a must. The class just kicks serious behind. Depending on how high level you start on, Factotum 8, Factotum 11 or just straight Factotum works.

Oh, and it may be worth it to dip Fighter, Martial Rogue, Monk, etc. for feats. Are you allowed a Cleric-dip without the spellcasting? Knowledge Devotion, Travel Domain (not Devotion - you want that free Freedom of Movement for 1 round/day) and some random Domain would be sweet.


Moooaaaaarrrr info required! Rest between fights? What books exactly allowed? What level will the game be on? Insufficient data!

playswithfire
2008-08-14, 09:48 AM
Moooaaaaarrrr info required! Rest between fights? What books exactly allowed? What level will the game be on? Insufficient data!

For reference, the recruitment thread for the arena is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87720)

Frosty
2008-08-14, 10:40 AM
No psionics, unfortunately. They're too spell-casty-like.

I'm definitely taking elusive target so I can survive Shock Troopers. I don't want to rely on POWER ATTACK to deal damage either. What can I do?

AstralFire
2008-08-14, 10:52 AM
I pretty thoroughly support Covered in Bees' general idea (I don't know much about the specifics): getting full initiator progression while easily qualifying for Master of Nine is awesome. I did a Fighter 4/Barbarian 6/Master of Nine 5||UA Swordsage 15 once.

This is obviously not the most optimal thing ever, but it's still pretty awesome, and the biggest drawback of Swordsage - slow recovery - is pretty null when you have a bajillion readied maneuvers. (Which also lets you deal with any type of situation pretty well.) I would go for something along similar Master of Nine/full initiator abuse lines.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-14, 10:54 AM
Doesn't look like you can use Factotum (Essential Guide Series) but the Supernatural Martial Artist Swordsage Variant might be interesting. Taking it another step the Arcane Emphasis might be permitted for the arena with the appropiate "spells" as restricted by ToB for martial maneuvers:

16. Are your Players restricted to particular rulebooks and supplements, or will you be allowing access to non-standard material? What sources can Players use for their characters?
SRD, Completes, Races of ___, Mastering ___ (e.g. Stormwrack), Tome of Battle, Magic Item Compendium

Doesn't look like a Dragon Shaman dip for Fast Healing 1 is an option (PHBII doesn't seem to be allowed)

Seems like you can still take a Druid (without Spellcasting) with Wildshape (plus you might get to keep the Animal Companion). Wildshape has lots of Great Wildshape feats. US/SRD Druidic Variant Druidic Avenger (Animal Companion, Fast Movement, Rage)

Since the Magic Item Compendium has an item based off the Dark Creature template is that template allowed? (Seems Gray the item is based off a Tome of Magic template)

Probably going to be a lot of Martial Adepts and Trip and Spiked Chain builds. Using Complete Mage to get SM5 or SNA5 as a Bloodline (Fey or Fiendish) Legacy feat for Hiding in Plain Sight with the Dark creature template and Sneak Attacking with a Rogue using Monk or Swordsage with the Ascetic Rogue feat Complete Adventurer could be interesting. Always Wands with Sneak Attack.

Fey Presence feat has Charm Monster 1/Day which might be useful as most fighter types have low will saves and might not be expecting that attack and Fiendish Presence has Suggestion 1Day (Complete Mage).

A few of the UA/SRD Blood lines might be interesting.

Taking a level of Barbarian to increase base movement might be a good option since there are no mult-classing penalties.

A Diplomancer could be interesting if the other opponents are NPCs.

AstralFire
2008-08-14, 11:03 AM
Spellsage, aside from requiring an actual write-up and playtesting, would definitely violate the "no spellcasting" bit.

Knaight
2008-08-14, 11:55 AM
What are warlocks considered as? If they are allowed, Warlock/Crusader, Charisma Focus, loads of healing(both classes have impressive healing), good saves, damage resistance, versatile in both melee and range, etc. Oh and take Utterdark blast.

Ganurath
2008-08-14, 12:25 PM
Knaight: The spirit of the tournament is noncasters only, so odds are warlocks will not be allowed.

Another helpful hint to everyone: At least one competitor has declared their intention of running a Frenzied Berserker, and I am currently torn between Airborn Archer and Wild Shape Ranger (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TakeThat) (Lion's Pounce, Complete Divine. Hah!)

Chronos
2008-08-14, 12:42 PM
...and I am currently torn between Airborn Archer and Wild Shape Ranger (Lion's Pounce, Complete Divine. Hah!)If you go Wildshape Ranger, you will, of course, follow it up with Master of Many Forms, right?

Knaight
2008-08-14, 12:45 PM
Well, that makes things harder. Shadow Hand Swordsage/Rogue would work pretty well, but Shadow Hand is sort of Magicky.

Burley
2008-08-14, 12:45 PM
I've always found that a Lion Totem Charger Barbarian//Scout with that feat from Complete Scoundrel that gives you an automatic extra +2d6 skirmish and +2AC. That's charging + full-attack + skirmish damage on EVERY HIT!!!
I've often wondered if Frenzied Berserker added into that would be useful...for fun.

Ganurath
2008-08-14, 12:46 PM
If you go Wildshape Ranger, you will, of course, follow it up with Master of Many Forms, right?Frosty, I believe you owe Mr. Wildshape Ranger an apology.

AstralFire
2008-08-14, 12:47 PM
I'm missing something here.

Ganurath
2008-08-14, 12:54 PM
I'm missing something here.In the tournament thread, Frosty said that nobody should bother with Wildshape Ranger because it could only do up to Medium creatures. Master of Many Forms, which can only be accessed by Wildshape Ranger in this tournament, can become a Gargantuan Dragon.

AstralFire
2008-08-14, 12:56 PM
In the tournament thread, Frosty said that nobody should bother with Wildshape Ranger because it could only do up to Medium creatures. Master of Many Forms, which can only be accessed by Wildshape Ranger in this tournament, can become a Gargantuan Dragon.

Ah, thank you.

Aneantir
2008-08-14, 01:02 PM
Crusader 15/Swordsage 15 is always a solid bet for this kind of thing. Taking Crusader for offensive, and allowing Swordsage to focus more on defensive and maneuverability. Close the ground quick with Shadow Blink, then lay down the hurt with Divine Surge and the like.

Or, maybe, Swordsage 11/Master of Nine 4//Crusader 15

Feat progression like:
Human: Dodge
1: Adaptive Style
3: Blind Fight
6: Improved Unarmed Strike
9: Improved Initiative
12: ???
15: ???

So, you finish with some high saves, a veritable archive of maneuvers, the Immortal Fortitude stance because it's RETARDED, White Raven Hammer because it's also retarded, mobility spurting from every orifice, and an answer to every possible situation you could get into.

So, this'll be something close to unstoppable in an arena situation, unless you get shafted something fierce.

Chronicled
2008-08-14, 01:11 PM
In the tournament thread, Frosty said that nobody should bother with Wildshape Ranger because it could only do up to Medium creatures. Master of Many Forms, which can only be accessed by Wildshape Ranger in this tournament, can become a Gargantuan Dragon.

A Gargantuan Dragon, with access to maneuvers from the other side of the gestalt. The dancing flaming bear can eat its heart out.

Ganurath
2008-08-14, 01:18 PM
A Gargantuan Dragon, with access to maneuvers from the other side of the gestalt. The dancing flaming bear can eat its heart out.Alas, I do not have Tomb of Battle.

Chronicled
2008-08-14, 01:21 PM
Alas, I do not have Tomb of Battle.

Doesn't mean that you can't use the Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2), even if you won't have Wis synergy. Here's all the maneuvers for all the classes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a), too. If you can get someone to PM you the Swordsage info, it'd probably fit better with the Wildshaped Ranger/MoMF.

Edit: Oh wait, no spells. So you don't even need Wis. Swordsage would probably still be the better option, but Warblade ought to work just fine too. And if you're going to be wildshaped, make sure you pick up 4 levels of the Warshaper PrC (CW). (In this case, the 5th might be somewhat useful, but I'd still avoid it.)

Edit2: Actually, after a bit of thought: Warblade1/Monk2/Warblade 13//Ranger 5/MoMF 10 with Carmedine Monk for Int to AC might be a better idea. Warshaper is only going to be useful for the reach (which could keep you out of Robilar's Gambit range) and minor stat boosts; depending on what MoMF 8-10 gives you (away from book) it's probably the better option. Taking the monk levels where they are lets you pick a Warblade stance from the next tier of options; Hearing the Air from Diamond Mind is a very good idea.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-14, 01:21 PM
Alas, I do not have Tomb of Battle.

Maybe a Non spellcasting Wildshaping Druid with Wildshape feats.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-08-14, 01:39 PM
Forget gargantuan dragon, take Frozen Wild Shape from Frostburn with Robilar's Gambit and turn into a 12-headed Cryohydra, to get a 12-bite AoO every time you're attacked. Go Wild Shape Ranger 5/ Master of Many Forms 7/ War Shaper 3 on one side, take anything you want on the other side.

No psionics at all, or no psionic powers? "To learn or manifest a power, a psion must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the power’s level." A character with Int 10 who takes Psion 1 to qualify for Psychic Assassin never learns any powers, he just has the manifester level with Practiced Manifester to meet the prerequisites. I'd think that this falls within the spirit of the rules just fine, as anything you get is far less flashy/magicy than even martial adept abilities.