584 Improbable Causes - defeating the big demon

[ironballs]

loved the strip today :smallsmile:

it's really dramatic and ominous, that demon must be colossal size.
but, as V demonstrated before, a quick 'Dismissal' spell should do the trick and banish the demon back to hell....

[Degausser]

Can't. V's a specialist in evocation, and his barred schools are conjuration and (by process of elimination) Necromancy. This is why he needed scrolls to banish the elementals before.

[ironballs]

that can't be right.
according to D&D rules, you can't cast spells from the prohibited spell school - even from a scroll, a wand or whatnot...

[Degausser]

Huh, that's right, I remember that now.

Oh, DUH! Banishment is abdjuration, not summoning. (Of COURSE! Sending a summoned monster back whence it came has nothing to do with the school of conjuring . . . *sigh*)

Okay, well, considering the buildup, I'm guessing that V won't just get rid of it by Banishing it, this is not altogeher unsuprising as most of his/er spells have been bassed on finding Roy, and s/he most likely wouldn't have memorized banishment. (S/he should, however, memorize prestidigitation, make his/er self look pretty.)

I'm guessing, epic battle, lots of stuff, and Thurkla decides to help out, which keeps her out of prision, or at least lessens her sentance.

BTW, loved the repeated quotes "Good, not stupid." I hate role-players who insist that Lawful good=Lawful stupid.

[only1doug]

I've had enormous fun playing a lawful stupid paladin (int=dump stat) but also dislike it being the default condition for all Paladins.



Sindar the Loud - Dwarven Paladin
"I AM SINDAR, PALADIN OF CLANGGADIN"

Peasants: "yes, we heard that"


It was great, the entire group winced whenever we introduced ourselves.

[ironballs]

Sindar the Loud - Dwarven Paladin
"I AM SINDAR, PALADIN OF CLANGGADIN"

Peasants: "yes, we heard that"


It was great, the entire group winced whenever we introduced ourselves.

Lol !:smallbiggrin:

[ericgrau]

Both dismissal and banishment allow a will save. Dismissal's will save is based on HD, making it horribly low on a creature that probably has a high will save. If I read it correctly, banishment has a more normal will save (still may be beaten) but it has an HD cap of twice the caster level.

EDIT: dispel magic OTOH, is a caster level check, DC 11 + summoner's caster level.



If an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning) is in the area, you can make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured that object or creature (returning it whence it came) in addition to attempting to dispel spells targeting the creature or object.

[GSFB]

Am I missing something? I just checked the MM and saw no summon ability for an imp.

This makes me think that THIS imp's summoning power is plot-based, not rules-based (does it have character levels? is it an "advanced" imp?).

Therefore, we need to look at plot-centric combat and not "what a rules lawyer do to win."

Along these lines, I could see Ninja-girl helping out to gain favor (or, more to the point, to avoid being consumed by the colossal devil thing).

Speaking of which... what IS the colossal devil thing? Certainly not a pit-fiend, as they aren't nearly that big.

Did this imp somehow get word to some Prince of Hell?

YIKES!

That is, yikes if the size is rules-based and not plot-based...

DANG YOU, RICH, WE NEED CONSISTENT APPLICATION OF CORE RULES!!!

[Green Bean]

DANG YOU, RICH, WE NEED CONSISTENT APPLICATION OF CORE RULES!!!

Well, if you look at it a certain way, Rich consistently applies the rules (of drama). :smalltongue:

[Occasional Sage]

DANG YOU, RICH, WE NEED CONSISTENT APPLICATION OF CORE RULES!!!

But that would eliminate half the fun of the strip, and obviate 75% of the OotS threads.

[Linkavitch]

Like I said in another thread, Durkon is going to cast Thor's Might on himself, and V is going to cast Bull's Strength and Super-Size on him.(Super-Size is not the real name, I know, but I can't remember it right now.

[Callista]

Enlarge Person?

[Gamerlord]

Well i hope it won't be one strip for beating it i whould like a bunch of strips to have this fight in it.

[Linkavitch]

Enlarge Person?

Yeah, that was it.

[lord_khaine]

a casting of enlarge person wont stack with Thor's Might

[Texas Jedi]

It is even larger than all of the archdemons, and devils that I know of. Heck most of them are only a little bigger than a pit fiend or a balor.

Even the Kuretcher (spelling) from the Fiend Folio is only about 20 feet tall or so, and those dwarf the powers of a balor.

The only creature going by the rules of DnD of a lower plane that I could think of it being is Asmodeus in his true form. I really doudt that would be the case because I think they would have a much much much bigger problem than Xycon (or even the Swirl) if that were the case. That would be unless Asmodeus wants the swirl to kill the gods to rule a new plane of existance.

The only other thing I could think of is that it might be a super advanced leveled up pit fiend. It doesn't look like a balor at all because those have two sets of arms.

Plus you have to figure out that Kubota is LE and Therkla is LE bordering on LN then why would they be hanging out with with a CE quasit. I think Qarr is an imp because of the reasons I have given.

[slayerx]

it's really dramatic and ominous, that demon must be colossal size.


Y'know, i'm wondering just what kind of monster that is... amognst devils, i see nothing bigger than "large", and amognst Demons i see nothing bigger than "huge" (20ft Nalfeshnee)... but i think this thing looks to be atleast one size catagory larger than that (depending on how tall those trees are)... could always be homebrewed

Which kind of reminds me, can we really be sure that Qaar is an imp... i mean just because someone calls it an imp doesn't mean they are sure it's an imp, he could maybe be a quasit... which means we are now not sure if we sure use cold iron or silver =p... though grant it, imp's are known to work as councilers for evil; and based on Qaar's reaction to Lien's spear, i'm willing to bet she's packing a silver tip, so it still leans more towards him being a devil and not a demon

[Occasional Sage]

Like I said in another thread, Durkon is going to cast Thor's Might on himself, and V is going to cast Bull's Strength and Super-Size on him.(Super-Size is not the real name, I know, but I can't remember it right now.

Even better: cast those spells on the BBEG. He'll exceed the sizes in the rules and, therefore, cannot exist. XP for everyone!

[hamishspence]

Klurichir got cut to CR 18 in FC1. Balors are now more powerful.

Homebrew
Archfiend
Advanced whatzit (possibly with wings added via template.)
Illusion cast by Qaar

Seem like base possibilities. Pretty much all demons/devils need advancement to get into the gargantuan/colossal size range.

[Texas Jedi]

Klurichir got cut to CR 18 in FC1. Balors are now more powerful.


FC1?

Shoot I am sad to here that it was always one of my favorite demons.

[Occasional Sage]

Am I missing something? I just checked the MM and saw no summon ability for an imp.


Y'know, I missed thinking about this earlier in my rush to make a crack. GSFB is right, there is no Summon for Imps (making them one of the minority, approximately 1 in 3 lack this). Has Qar really been identified correctly?

[hamishspence]

No actual changes (except its DR in web enhancement, to fit 3.5). its simply that they decided it was over-CRd in FF.

[mockingbyrd7]

In our D&D game, my dad plays a Lawful Stupid paladin, but only because it's necessary for the game to function. Two of our players love rolling up dysfunctional evil Belkar types and promptly rub it in the paladin's face, so he needs to be particularly obtuse for the party to function. :smallconfused: :smallbiggrin:

As for the devil, I have no idea how they'll bring it down. Most likely, they won't. They might sic it on Kubota, though. :smallamused:

[Lupy]

The only creature going by the rules of DnD of a lower plane that I could think of it being is Asmodeus in his true form. I really doudt that would be the case because I think they would have a much much much bigger problem than Xycon (or even the Swirl) if that were the case. That would be unless Asmodeus wants the swirl to kill the gods to rule a new plane of existance.


What is a swirl? :smallamused: Anyway, I think that it's a giant imp and will die from the first Elan-attack. :smallbiggrin:

[An Enemy Spy]

I'm betting on it killing the three redshirts they brought with them. I mean, why else would they have brought redshirts?

[hamishspence]

Fiendish codex 2 gave a reason for the spiral shape of Serpent's Coil. Asmodeus's plummeting form carved out the rock while still falling.

So, while it confirms Manual of the planes story that Asmodeus real body is there, it refutes the notion that it is thousands of miles long.

He is probably no bigger than his lesser aspect (Miniature Handbook says lesser aspects are same size as archdevils, but may differ from size of deities.)

[Chronos]

Which kind of reminds me, can we really be sure that Qaar is an imp... i mean just because someone calls it an imp doesn't mean they are sure it's an imp, he could maybe be a quasit... which means we are now not sure if we sure use cold iron or silverWhatever Qarr is, he's vulnerable to silver (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html).

[Porthos]

FC1?

Shoot I am sad to here that it was always one of my favorite demons.

FC1 = Fiendish Codex 1.

[Logalmier]

Speaking of which... what IS the colossal devil thing? Certainly not a pit-fiend, as they aren't nearly that big.

You can make a huge sized Pit Fiend by adding on hit dice. Maybe Rich is just taking that to the next level, making some super-epic-uber colossal Pit fiend by giving it around 150 HD.:smalleek:

[Degausser]

The 'imp' (if that's what he really is) is clearly lawful evil (he's making deals, sticking to the plan, doing what he's told . . . sort of.) he's clearly a Baatorian fiend of some sort. Baatorian fiends, most of them, have the ability to summon other baatorians, and the chance increases as they increase in hit dice. This was problematic in 2nd ed Dnd, 'cuse one would summon two (making three) and two would summon two more (making 5) etc.

As for the big demon . . . I dunno what it is. Proabably another homebrew, like Sabine (THAT'S RIGHT, SABINE IS A HOMEBREW FIEND, DEAL WITH IT.)

Rich has repeatedly shown that his campign world has several house rules, which isn't classic DnD. If you want proof, look no further than redcloak. Goblins in his world are medium-class creatures, while normal DnD goblins are small class. In this perspective, he hasn't been inconsistant, we just don't know the extent of all of his 'house rules' right now.

[Borris]

I'd say V will defeat the devil with a casting of
Phantasmal Killer, 4th level illusion spell which shows the starget its worst fear and might kill it in on shot. See for, it to work, V needs to defeat the devil's Spell Resistance. It must then fail a Will save to believe the Illusion to be true, and then a Fortitude save or die from the fear.

With the devil's size and it's 150 HD or so, it certainly cannot fail its saving throws except on a 1. And let's give it an arbitrary SR of 33, so that V can only beat it on a roll of 20. Now the devil threatens the whole island, and knowing that V has a low Concentration score, as seen in the first fight against Miko, he/she needs to succeed on a DC 19 Concentration check to cast the spell defensively. Assuming a Constitution modifier of +0, that's a 10% chance. Globally, the odds for the spell to succeed are now 1 in 80,000. Thus, according to the rules stated in the current comic, it's a sure kill. Plus we get to see the worst fear of a 50-foot tall devil. Probably a basket of puppies.

[Occasional Sage]

I'd say V will defeat the devil with a casting of
Phantasmal Killer, 4th level illusion spell which shows the starget its worst fear and might kill it in on shot. See for, it to work, V needs to defeat the devil's Spell Resistance. It must then fail a Will save to believe the Illusion to be true, and then a Fortitude save or die from the fear.

With the devil's size and it's 150 HD or so, it certainly cannot fail its saving throws except on a 1. And let's give it an arbitrary SR of 33, so that V can only beat it on a roll of 20. Now the devil threatens the whole island, and knowing that V has a low Concentration score, as seen in the first fight against Miko, he/she needs to succeed on a DC 19 Concentration check to cast the spell defensively. Assuming a Constitution modifier of +0, that's a 10% chance. Globally, the odds for the spell to succeed are now 1 in 80,000. Thus, according to the rules stated in the current comic, it's a sure kill. Plus we get to see the worst fear of a 50-foot tall devil. Probably a basket of puppies.

You win. I like that better than my theory.

[herrhauptmann]

I'd say V will defeat the devil with a casting of
Phantasmal Killer, 4th level illusion spell which shows the starget its worst fear and might kill it in on shot. See for, it to work, V needs to defeat the devil's Spell Resistance. It must then fail a Will save to believe the Illusion to be true, and then a Fortitude save or die from the fear.

With the devil's size and it's 150 HD or so, it certainly cannot fail its saving throws except on a 1. And let's give it an arbitrary SR of 33, so that V can only beat it on a roll of 20. Now the devil threatens the whole island, and knowing that V has a low Concentration score, as seen in the first fight against Miko, he/she needs to succeed on a DC 19 Concentration check to cast the spell defensively. Assuming a Constitution modifier of +0, that's a 10% chance. Globally, the odds for the spell to succeed are now 1 in 80,000. Thus, according to the rules stated in the current comic, it's a sure kill. Plus we get to see the worst fear of a 50-foot tall devil. Probably a basket of puppies.

I think you're on the right track, but need to carry it further. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MillionToOneChance?from=Main.Million-to-oneChance

As everyone knows (especially Elan) something that's 1 in a 100 never happens, but something that's 1 in a 1000,000 is a sure thing. I recommend reading Terry Pratchett's Guards Guards for more source material. 3 characters spend the majority of a chapter trying to jiggle the odds to a 1 in a 1000,000.

[Degausser]

I'd say V will defeat the devil with a casting of
Phantasmal Killer, 4th level illusion spell which shows the starget its worst fear and might kill it in on shot. See for, it to work, V needs to defeat the devil's Spell Resistance. It must then fail a Will save to believe the Illusion to be true, and then a Fortitude save or die from the fear.

With the devil's size and it's 150 HD or so, it certainly cannot fail its saving throws except on a 1. And let's give it an arbitrary SR of 33, so that V can only beat it on a roll of 20. Now the devil threatens the whole island, and knowing that V has a low Concentration score, as seen in the first fight against Miko, he/she needs to succeed on a DC 19 Concentration check to cast the spell defensively. Assuming a Constitution modifier of +0, that's a 10% chance. Globally, the odds for the spell to succeed are now 1 in 80,000. Thus, according to the rules stated in the current comic, it's a sure kill. Plus we get to see the worst fear of a 50-foot tall devil. Probably a basket of puppies.

That's actually pretty darn funny, and I'll totally buy it. Though, I'm guessing, since he's probably a Baazatu, his worst fear is love, happyness, and Chaotic good.

Heh, I'm guessing his worst fear is Elan. That's pretty funny actually.

[Graymayre]

Maybe. But it would probably happen 2 or 3 strips from now. In fact, I believe the chances of it happening next strip to be 1 in a 1,000,000.

[Kaytara]

I'd say V will defeat the devil with a casting of
Phantasmal Killer, 4th level illusion spell which shows the starget its worst fear and might kill it in on shot. See for, it to work, V needs to defeat the devil's Spell Resistance. It must then fail a Will save to believe the Illusion to be true, and then a Fortitude save or die from the fear.

With the devil's size and it's 150 HD or so, it certainly cannot fail its saving throws except on a 1. And let's give it an arbitrary SR of 33, so that V can only beat it on a roll of 20. Now the devil threatens the whole island, and knowing that V has a low Concentration score, as seen in the first fight against Miko, he/she needs to succeed on a DC 19 Concentration check to cast the spell defensively. Assuming a Constitution modifier of +0, that's a 10% chance. Globally, the odds for the spell to succeed are now 1 in 80,000. Thus, according to the rules stated in the current comic, it's a sure kill. Plus we get to see the worst fear of a 50-foot tall devil. Probably a basket of puppies.

Heh, love that theory. XD

Why do you think V has a low Concentration score? The only proof we've seen is that at the time, when receiving penalties from both the bag of goo and the heavy rain, V failed the concentration check on his most powerful spell. Even with those penalties, he succeeded with the Fireball. (Then he failed with Suggestion, but I guess you can't win them all...)

Concerning an earlier post, I really don't think Enlarge Person is a viable option in this case, even if it did them any good. They set out in order to ambush a ninja and certainly weren't expecting this much resistance. Considering V's mindset, it's not unreasonable to assume he prepared a very limited array of offensive spells for the day.
Then again, that would leave V pretty much useless in the upcoming fight, so maybe not...

[ironballs]

well, looks like my original guess was pretty correct - first thing V attempts is Dismissal \ Banishment... :smallcool:

[GSFB]

...and apparently, an imp doesn't need a summon ability when he manages to win a bet!