Creature with the highest CR?

[Roythebattousai]

Highest I've seen is 27, is there higher?

[Tsotha-lanti]

Man you lazy.

I guess you mean without templates and other advancement?

Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon, CR 66.

[monty]

Core only? If not, there's all sorts of crazy stuff like Death (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Death%2C_CR_373) (CR 373).

[Spiryt]

Core only? If not, there's all sorts of crazy stuff like Death (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Death%2C_CR_373) (CR 373).

I wonder WHO ever spend time on writing something like that. ANd, more importantly, what for?

[monty]

I wonder WHO ever spend time on writing something like that. ANd, more importantly, what for?

Epic campaigns, maybe? I suppose they were trying to make something that actually posed a threat to a level 21 wizard.

[hamishspence]

Dragon mag's highest in 3.5 was Great Wyrm Time Dragon (CR 90)

[RTGoodman]

The think highest CR I can remember seeing in an actual WotC published book was in Dragons of Faerun or something like that - it was that demigod red dragon whose name I don't know, and I think his CR was either 53 or 73. I don't actually have the book, so someone else'll have to check that.

[hamishspence]

Not Dragons of Faerun: Tchazzar the Conqueror is CR 40, as are some others in back of Book, Inferno was also CR 40 (Power of Faerun)

The Creeping Doom was CR 50 (dracolich: Wiz20 Archmage 5) And not statted out.

Some Dragon monsters have been moved to wizards products (or wizards gave out stats to dragon) since Dragon mag steel dragon exactly matchs WoTC steel dragon.

[Frosty]

Core only? If not, there's all sorts of crazy stuff like Death (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Death%2C_CR_373) (CR 373).

I don't even know what 90% of those abilities do. Now I wanna see stats for Life.

[FMArthur]

D20 NPCs by challenge rating. (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/D20_NPCs_by_Challenge_Rating) It's just a wiki, so most of the stuff on the high-end is probably made up by players, but if you're looking for the toughest foes around, here they are. Ouroboros, the Dragon Lord of Time seems to be the most fearsome, despite some other nasty higher-CR ones, but it's actually kind of surprising not to see Greater Celerity as an at-will ability for a creature who literally is time itself.

[sikyon]

http://www.immortalshandbook.com/immortalshandbook.htm

http://bp1.blogger.com/_CbQVPSTbe3w/SC_0SYAjcAI/AAAAAAAADl8/4rJKGZZ3370/s1600-h/IMG_1643.JPG

Edit: note the lack of templates and actually being published

[hotel_papa]

CR 84,431,558, anyone?

Someone statted "A'tuin the Star Turtle" from Discworld

http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/A%27tuin_the_Star_Turtle

Such highlights include:

AC 137,469,003
hp 10,969,646,080
DR 15,234,372/—

Melee Bite +130,023,532 melee (1920d10 + 108), 2 flippers +130,023,528 melee (960d10 + 108)

No, I don't know why.

[Mushroom Ninja]

My absolute favorite high CR creature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57301)

[Adumbration]

The sad thing is that it still gets defeated by shivering touch... 25 dex and touch AC somewhere in the minus 4 million.

Any wizards up for some extra XP?

EDIT: Of course, I mean the great A'tuin.

[fractic]

http://www.immortalshandbook.com/immortalshandbook.htm

http://bp1.blogger.com/_CbQVPSTbe3w/SC_0SYAjcAI/AAAAAAAADl8/4rJKGZZ3370/s1600-h/IMG_1643.JPG

That text is sooooo stupid.



An Earth sized planet would have about 80000 hit points


Sure...

[edit]: oh and it has an ability called superluminal which makes it move at the speed of light. That's just luminal not superluminal.

[TwystidMynd]

The sad thing is that it still gets defeated by shivering touch... 25 dex and touch AC somewhere in the minus 4 million.

Any wizards up for some extra XP?

EDIT: Of course, I mean the great A'tuin.


Is the range on Shivering Touch greater than 6,666 miles? 'Cuz otherwise old Turtley would snap you before you even got close!

[Adumbration]

Is the range on Shivering Touch greater than 6,666 miles? 'Cuz otherwise old Turtley would snap you before you even got close!

Spot +1. Although the likeliest outcome in real life would be one very flattened wizard, with the A'tuin's fly speed of 152 miles.

[hamishspence]

Star Munchkin answer Planet: 360768HP, "Hull plating": +50, Siz modifier, -64. So, AC = -14, damage reduction = 50/-.

So Munchkin planets are pretty tough, not sure how it compares with d20 Future.

[sikyon]

That text is sooooo stupid.



Sure...

Remember that HP is an abstraction, not an actual percentage of life or whatnot.

[fractic]

Remember that HP is an abstraction, not an actual percentage of life or whatnot.

And every time someone falls down a cliff and takes 20d6 falling damage the earth also takes 20d6 damage. And all those fireballs going of with the earth in the area of effect. Why is the earth still intact?

[hamishspence]

or a percentage of Unit volume, otherwise said planets would have more HP, and the core being both liquid and Iron would make for oddities.

Single flat HP for whole thing makes for cheap and easy baseline for "can d20 super-spaceship blow up planet"

[chiasaur11]

The sad thing is that it still gets defeated by shivering touch... 25 dex and touch AC somewhere in the minus 4 million.

Any wizards up for some extra XP?

EDIT: Of course, I mean the great A'tuin.

Well, there needs to be some way to kill it. Otherwise Death'd never be able to reap it.

So, whadya think Discworld's Death's CR would be?

[hamishspence]

DR 50 might account for falling damage, though not magic damage.

[fractic]

DR 50 might account for falling damage, though not magic damage.

Except stone has only hardness 8. There are simple rules for this kind of thing. Stone has 15 HP per 5ft*5ft*1 inch block. Someone less lazy could do the math.

[edit] But shouldn't. Assigning an ammount of HP to a planet is just silly.

[hamishspence]

which is why a silly source did it. And gave it a rather higher hardness than stone

(if you insist, it can account for gravitational binding energy, and only come into play when attacks are made against whole planet)

[Texas Jedi]

I have always been a big fan of the Klurecher (sp) from the Fiend Folio. I think they have a CR of 27 or so and that was before all of the cool stuff in the epic level handbook came out.

Monster wise I think the great worm prysmatic dragon had an ungodly amount of CR on it.

The only think else I could think of is in the epic level hand book was an adventure hook of a lvl 20 paragon mind flayer sorcerer takes over a small world with his paragon mind flayer buddies. I can't remember exactly how much a paragon adds to a CR of a monster but it could be more than 20.

[hamishspence]

Klurichir was Cr25, Fiend folio was released a while after Epic, and it was revised in Fiendish Codex 1 to CR 18. Maybe it was over-CRd.

rules change was simply to DR in 3.5 update web enhancement.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Monster wise I think the great worm prysmatic dragon had an ungodly amount of CR on it.


Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon, CR 66.

It's still the first page, even.

The epic monster section of the SRD has like 4-5 monster of CR 50+. Hecatoncheires, Devastation Spider, other old dragons...

[hamishspence]

And, if you like, you can advance monsters as far as they will go. Rules might break down a bit though.

[Chronos]

http://bp1.blogger.com/_CbQVPSTbe3w/SC_0SYAjcAI/AAAAAAAADl8/4rJKGZZ3370/s1600-h/IMG_1643.JPGWhoa, that silly Neutronium Golem was actually from a published book? It came up in a thread some time back, and I figured out how to kill it with either a level 21 ranger (at significant monetary cost), or a level 17 wizard (at a cost of 500 XP and a few magic items he could re-use after the battle).

It's extremely difficult to make epic monsters, because you have to take absolutely everything into account. Miss one slight vulnerability, and it goes down like the Hindenberg, to characters well below its supposed CR.

[hamishspence]

which book? not a WOTC one as far as I can tell.

[AKA_Bait]

Core only? If not, there's all sorts of crazy stuff like Death (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Death%2C_CR_373) (CR 373).

I found the random encounter table for that critters realm very interesting.


RANDOM ENCOUNTERSThe following is a list of possible random encounters within Death's realm. Encounter Levels have specifically not been given so that the encounter may be tailored as necessary.


1d6 Encounter


1 -- Dread wraiths
2-3 -- Wights
4-5 -- Negative energy elementals (from The Tome of Horrors III [1])
6 -- Visitors (e.g. emissary from a death god)
7 -- Unique (e.g. Azrael, Exhumus, etc.)
8 -- GM's choice

Notice anything odd here?

[Frosty]

That there's 8 numbers instead of 6?

[AKA_Bait]

That there's 8 numbers instead of 6?

Indeed. I guess a unique creature and the DM's choice only get to happen when the laws of the universe decide to take a hiatus.

[monty]

Whoa, that silly Neutronium Golem was actually from a published book? It came up in a thread some time back, and I figured out how to kill it with either a level 21 ranger (at significant monetary cost), or a level 17 wizard (at a cost of 500 XP and a few magic items he could re-use after the battle).

I see a few mistakes in that entry.


Neutronium golems travel at the speed of light. This gives them a speed of 5,621,108,587 feet, the equivalent of 106,460 miles per round.

First, that second number is off by a factor of ten. Second, its (correct) speed is less than the speed of light; it comes out to about 177,434 miles per second, compared to the actual light speed of about 186,282.

What book is that, anyway?

[chiasaur11]

Indeed. I guess a unique creature and the DM's choice only get to happen when the laws of the universe decide to take a hiatus.

Well, yeah. Death doesn't really "get" the laws of physics and probability.

[sikyon]

What book is that, anyway?

If you re-read my original post...



First, that second number is off by a factor of ten. Second, its (correct) speed is less than the speed of light; it comes out to about 177,434 miles per second, compared to the actual light speed of about 186,282.
Consider that it can double-move/charge to twice that speed.

Edit: Also, about planet HP: Most likely that is the relevant HP when the neutronium golem strikes the planet, which is a substantially different effect than when a person strikes the surface of the planet. Normal people can't attack the planet at all. We're probably talking planetary core and whatnot here.

[FMArthur]

I'd say attacking the planet's surface alone is like an attempt to sunder its armor, and that the world doesn't actually take damage from normal things happening on its surface.

[Glimbur]

CR 84,431,558, anyone?

Someone statted "A'tuin the Star Turtle" from Discworld

http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/A%27tuin_the_Star_Turtle

Such highlights include:

AC 137,469,003
hp 10,969,646,080
DR 15,234,372/—

Melee Bite +130,023,532 melee (1920d10 + 108), 2 flippers +130,023,528 melee (960d10 + 108)

No, I don't know why.

Pshaw, I reckon a level 9 wizard could kill that thing with a Rod of Extend spell. Just cast Extended Solid Fog somewhere in the middle of it, then cast Cloudkill at the back of it, extended with the rod. That'll do 180d4 con damage, which should kill the thing. The Solid Fog keeps it inside the cloudkill instead of scooting off at 800,000 feet per round.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Are we talking official WotC? Cause that's the Great Wyrm Time Dragon clocking in at a natural CR 90 before advancement or templates. If not the Dicefreaks Asmodeus was probably under-CRed at 99 I think.

[Chronos]

Pshaw, I reckon a level 9 wizard could kill that thing with a Rod of Extend spell. Just cast Extended Solid Fog somewhere in the middle of it, then cast Cloudkill at the back of it, extended with the rod.Not quite, unless your 9th-level wizard has a 32 Int. One of its epic feats is Perfect Health, which makes it immune to any poison with a DC of 25 or less. Of course, that's still perfectly achievable for a wizard of, say, 13th-15th level.

Or, of course, you could just prepare a few dozen Fingers of Deaths, Baleful Polymorphs, or the like. It still fails a save on a natural 1, just like anything else, and it doesn't have any spell resistance.

Seriously, you'd think that the folks who stat these things out would notice weaknesses like that.

[Glimbur]

Not quite, unless your 9th-level wizard has a 32 Int. One of its epic feats is Perfect Health, which makes it immune to any poison with a DC of 25 or less. Of course, that's still perfectly achievable for a wizard of, say, 13th-15th level.

Or, of course, you could just prepare a few dozen Fingers of Deaths, Baleful Polymorphs, or the like. It still fails a save on a natural 1, just like anything else, and it doesn't have any spell resistance.

Seriously, you'd think that the folks who stat these things out would notice weaknesses like that.

Curses. Yeah, I also thought of spamming save or dies, but tried to do it on the cheap with lower level spells.

[Ascension]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but since it supports the world (right?), wouldn't you be on it's back to start with anyway? And unless it's a really strange turtle, there's no way it can attack the tiny little insignificant motes crawling around in the center of its back until they've already figured out how to kill it.

[Ascension]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but since it supports the world (right?), wouldn't you be on it's back to start with anyway? And unless it's a really strange turtle, there's no way it can attack the tiny little insignificant motes crawling around in the center of its back until they've already figured out how to kill it. Simply put, you'd be too small a target in too inconvenient a location for it to actually hurt you at all, and perhaps too small for it to even perceive at all.

[Irreverent Fool]

http://www.immortalshandbook.com/immortalshandbook.htm

http://bp1.blogger.com/_CbQVPSTbe3w/SC_0SYAjcAI/AAAAAAAADl8/4rJKGZZ3370/s1600-h/IMG_1643.JPG

Edit: note the lack of templates and actually being published

I know who buys this stuff... but does anyone actually use it?

[sikyon]

I know who buys this stuff... but does anyone actually use it?

It's more for just fluffing out a universe.

[hamishspence]

Not sure how official is official.

I personally put:
WOTC stuff: Rank 1
WOTC online stuff: Rank 1.5
Dragon and Dungeon stuff: Rank 2
Third party publishers: Rank 3

In which case, Time Dragon would be more official than some other things, but less official than Prismatic.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Not sure how official is official.

I personally put:
WOTC stuff: Rank 1
WOTC online stuff: Rank 1.5
Dragon and Dungeon stuff: Rank 2
Third party publishers: Rank 3

In which case, Time Dragon would be more official than some other things, but less official than Prismatic.

That system doesn't make too much sense...why is the online stuff less official then the stuff in books? I mean I know people like to THINK Dragon and Dungeon magazine stuff isn't official but with the big glaring 'Official Dungeon and Dragon' sign on the cover of like...every magazine I wonder how people dispute that. :smalltongue: But I'm rambling.

[Irreverent Fool]

That system doesn't make too much sense...why is the online stuff less official then the stuff in books? I mean I know people like to THINK Dragon and Dungeon magazine stuff isn't official but with the big glaring 'Official Dungeon and Dragon' sign on the cover of like...every magazine I wonder how people dispute that. :smalltongue: But I'm rambling.

Because Dungeon and Dragon magazines have many things that seem to be built more for fun than balance. That's fine, but it just seems that the implications weren't thought all the way through. Two things that pop into my head are "Chicken Infested" and the underpriced golem enhancement "Rudimentary Intelligence".

[Arbitrarity]

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showpost.php?p=2873260&postcount=1

Fun stuff, albeit created through template application.

Challenge Rating: 264,093,876,000,000,000,000,000,058,608

[Kurald Galain]

Core only? If not, there's all sorts of crazy stuff like Death (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Death%2C_CR_373) (CR 373).

I also wonder why on earth people would bother to write that down.

The stats for Caine are much, must easier...

"You lose."

[chiasaur11]

I also wonder why on earth people would bother to write that down.

The stats for Caine are much, must easier...

"You lose."

Because Death is just beatable enough to give a false sense of hope.

Or, in the case of Batman Wizards, CoDzilla, and The Kobold, because "You lose" is followed with five hundred contingencies, and, if all else fails, singular enemy self. Epic cheese DnD players have a plan for losing. Don't.

[Worira]

Anything advanced an infinite number of HD. Seriously, why do people bother to stat this nonsense?

[chiasaur11]

Anything advanced an infinite number of HD. Seriously, why do people bother to stat this nonsense?

Maybe you could take 'em with save or dies?

[Sledge_bro]

Won't hundreds of wizards all firing ray of stupidity at once hopefully make A'tuin fail its save and be permanently in a Coma-like stupor?

[hamishspence]

By online stuff I meant the mass of weird monsters to be found on site, from Vampire Lord to Obsidian Dragon. There is probably other online stuff which might be regarded with disdain by some players.

Personally, I was OK with web enhancements, but more wary of stuff that isn't firmly tied to a published book.

[Worira]

Maybe you could take 'em with save or dies?


No, since all their saves are at +infinite. You could shivering touch them, but the point wasn't the hardest creature to beat, it was the highest CR. Since the rules allow arbitrarily high CR, the discussion is irrevelant if you include advanced monsters.

[monty]

No, since all their saves are at +infinite. You could shivering touch them, but the point wasn't the hardest creature to beat, it was the highest CR. Since the rules allow arbitrarily high CR, the discussion is irrevelant if you include advanced monsters.

Natural 1 still fails.

[Tengu_temp]

Whoa, that silly Neutronium Golem was actually from a published book? It came up in a thread some time back, and I figured out how to kill it with either a level 21 ranger (at significant monetary cost), or a level 17 wizard (at a cost of 500 XP and a few magic items he could re-use after the battle).

It's extremely difficult to make epic monsters, because you have to take absolutely everything into account. Miss one slight vulnerability, and it goes down like the Hindenberg, to characters well below its supposed CR.

How? My curiosity won't let me sleep before I learn how.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Natural 1 still fails.

Of course there are Luck feats like Better Lucky than Good:

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Better_Lucky_Than_Good,all

Sure there are others :smallsmile: Skill check one:

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Make_Your_Own_Luck,all

ECS has Action Boost:

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Action_Boost,ECS

Think I wanted something like Greater Destiny for non Dieties.

Saving Throws
A deity’s outsider Hit Dice and character level determine its base saving throw bonuses. A deity gets its divine rank as a divine bonus on all saving throws. Deities of rank 1 or higher do not automatically fail on a natural saving throw roll of 1.

Actually I was remembering Protected Destiny for humans and half-humans from Races of Destiny:

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Protected_Destiny,RD

[Worira]

Keep in mind that the infinite HD give this creature infinite feats, which it can spend on infinite epic feats for infinite ability scores. You may as well give it infinite levels in every class, too.

This is beside the point anyway. I think I've shown pretty clearly why allowing advanced monsters in a highest-CR contest is absurd.

[sikyon]

Keep in mind that the infinite HD give this creature infinite feats, which it can spend on infinite epic feats for infinite ability scores. You may as well give it infinite levels in every class, too.

This is beside the point anyway. I think I've shown pretty clearly why allowing advanced monsters in a highest-CR contest is absurd.

Different levels of infinity.

[monty]

Different levels of infinity.

At the risk of turning this into yet another discussion of the concept of infinity, it'd be really interesting to see how two creatures with different levels of infinite HD would compare.

[fractic]

At the risk of turning this into yet another discussion of the concept of infinity, it'd be really interesting to see how two creatures with different levels of infinite HD would compare.

The one with the larger infinite amount of HD would win?

[tonberrian]

The one with the larger infinite amount of HD would win?

So, if hypothetical creature A had one hit die for every natural number, and hypothetical creature B had one hit die for every rational number, creature B would win? :smallconfused:

I blame my Introduction to Theoretical Math course.

Edit: Especially since I'm wrong.

[fractic]

So, if hypothetical creature A had one hit die for every natural number, and hypothetical creature B had one hit die for every rational number, creature B would win? :smallconfused:

I blame my Introduction to Theoretical Math course.

Those kinds of infinity are the same size actually. I don't want to derail the thread but if you want an explanation PM me.

[Chronos]

How? My curiosity won't let me sleep before I learn how [to kill a Neutronium Golem].A few key vulnerabilities: First, it still fails a save on a natural 1, like anything else. Second, it has no special senses besides that Magnetar thing, which is only useful after it's managed to target its foe (and if it can't detect you in the first place, it can't target you). Third, it's about as smart as your average rock.

In both cases (level 21 ranger and level 17 wizard), the core of the plan is to immobilize it with some sort of illusion that it stays to fight (since no matter how lousy the illusion is, and no matter how it reacts, the golem can't disbelieve), then to shoot a whole bunch of Arrows of Construct Slaying at it from a few million miles away. In the ranger's case, he takes Distant Shot as his level 21 epic feat, and the extreme expense is for buying a few hundred Arrows of Slaying (he needs hundreds, because each only has a 1 in 20 chance of hitting, and each one that hits only has a 1 in 20 chance of slaying). In the wizard's case, he Gates in a Solar, lets it borrow some Gloves of Dexterity, and gives it the Distant Shot feat via the Heroics spell (a solar's bow creates Arrows of Slaying for free).

[fractic]

Why wouldn't the golem stop fighting the opponent that doesn't seem to affect him (the illusion) and insta move (light speed) to the enemy that is hurting him?

[Chronos]

Because it's too dumb to notice that the illusion isn't affecting it. Remember, Int --.

[chiasaur11]

Because it's too dumb to notice that the illusion isn't affecting it. Remember, Int --.

So you could beat them just by saying "I defeated you. Now you're dead."?

[Waspinator]

Because Dungeon and Dragon magazines have many things that seem to be built more for fun than balance. That's fine, but it just seems that the implications weren't thought all the way through. Two things that pop into my head are "Chicken Infested" and the underpriced golem enhancement "Rudimentary Intelligence".

It's worth noting that Chicken Infested was an April Fool's joke.

[Callos_DeTerran]

It's worth noting that Chicken Infested was an April Fool's joke.

And also meant for commoners. If your playing a commoner then unexpectedly pulling a chicken out of any container is the least of your problems.

[FMArthur]

But with a spell-component pouch, pulling out things is a free action. Infinite chickens. It's ridiculous, but also pretty powerful. If it weren't for thematic concerns, I'd probably want to play one in a normal campaign. The ability to make an infinite number of anything at first level generally evens out the fact that you're just a commoner.

[Glimbur]

But with a spell-component pouch, pulling out things is a free action. Infinite chickens. It's ridiculous, but also pretty powerful. If it weren't for thematic concerns, I'd probably want to play one in a normal campaign. The ability to make an infinite number of anything at first level generally evens out the fact that you're just a commoner.

Infinite chickens are one thing, but one use for them is to have your Dread Necro buddy animate them. If you've got the right feats even when they die they explode in negative energy. And the DM can't use the excuse of "you can't find any bodies" to stop your necromancy.

[Wreckingrocc]

One time while fingering through the monster manual, I saw a creature called a 'kobold' with upwards of 1/3 CR, although it might've been 1/4. I underestimate a lot of huge numbers a lot. I think that was the highest I've seen.

[cliffiepizza]

There's Hecatoncheres form the epic level handbook with 100 greatswords or 100 boulders, 988 hp, and ac 70. he's CR 57

[Tsotha-lanti]

So you could beat them just by saying "I defeated you. Now you're dead."?

No, because it can't process that.

This is pretty basic golemology. "Dumb as stone/iron/clay/sewn-together corpses."

[chiasaur11]

One time while fingering through the monster manual, I saw a creature called a 'kobold' with upwards of 1/3 CR, although it might've been 1/4. I underestimate a lot of huge numbers a lot. I think that was the highest I've seen.

Hey, most of us like to use things the party has a chance against.

There are reasons we left them out of the discussion.