Does anyone have "War and XPs" yet?

[SPoD]

As near as I can tell, it went on sale at GenCon more than four hours ago. Someone who posts here has to have it by now.

HEY! YOU! STOP ENJOYING YOUR CONVENTION EXPERIENCE AND TELL THE REST OF US ABOUT THE BOOK!

[Porthos]

As near as I can tell, it went on sale at GenCon more than four hours ago. Someone who posts here has to have it by now.

HEY! YOU! STOP ENJOYING YOUR CONVENTION EXPERIENCE AND TELL THE REST OF US ABOUT THE BOOK!

Seconded.

Oh sure, I may be getting my copy in the mail soon enough, but some of us would like to hear about the juciy details as soon as possible.

So spill already, people. :smallbiggrin:

<Roger Rabbit>
puh-puh-puh-pleeese? :smalltongue:
</Roger Rabbit>

[SPoD]

Anyone?


Anyone?







Bueller?

[Yoritomo Himeko]

Well, it's only the second day of Gencon and only a few playgrounders are there as far as I know.

I hope someone is able to get their hands on it and give us some kind of review. :smallbiggrin:

[Linkavitch]

I hope so. come on, people, post already!

[Kaertos]

Well, I don't know what to say really. You've read the strips which are the vast majority of the book. The extra strips are exactly what they are in the other books, which is to say a very welcome addition to the storyline and always a few great new gags.

I think the best part about this one is the commentary by Rich throughout the book. It is obvious that he has matured as a writer and that this is, as he mentions, the first full set of strips that were written entirely with the larger ongoing plot in mind.

Very good, very worth the money.

Oh, and the magnet is, of course, awesome.

[Porthos]

Well, I don't know what to say really. You've read the strips which are the vast majority of the book. The extra strips are exactly what they are in the other books, which is to say a very welcome addition to the storyline and always a few great new gags.

I think the best part about this one is the commentary by Rich throughout the book. It is obvious that he has matured as a writer and that this is, as he mentions, the first full set of strips that were written entirely with the larger ongoing plot in mind.

Very good, very worth the money.

Oh, and the magnet is, of course, awesome.

Were there any Hints About the Future in the book?

Spoiler tags exist for a reason, after all. :smalltongue:

[Felixaar]

It's a good book. as for hints about the future...

Rich points out that the main focus of the story arc we are currently in is getting the order back together and rezzing Roy. Simple enough except he states that such an acheivement will come at a great price to both the order in general, and one character specifically. Said character is unnamed. There is also no real mention on Miko having any involvement from now on in the story

and now I feel bad cause I just flicked through someone else's copy. I did buy start of darkness though...

[Nerd-o-rama]

First, nonspoilers:

The bonus strips are, as usual, quite great, including some more insight into Miko's descent into her her-ness, a nice conversation between Shojo and Hinjo, Elan and Julio's dramatic exit from Cliffport, and yes, fanservice.

The books includes a nice map and travelbook writeup of Azure City, which helps a lot for people like me who like to have geographical reference handy.

Vaarsuvius's plot summary at the start is surprisingly handy in spite of shkler typical loquaciousness.

Finally, I really enjoyed Rich's commentary before each "part". It really gives a lot of insight into his writing and pointing out the trickier parts of the series's subtext. Also, the man really loves him some Babylon 5.

And one "spoiler":
The writer's notes pretty much say outright that Miko's gone for good. Other hints I noticed were covered by Felixaar.

[Felixaar]

Yeah. Reading Rich's intro about how he "learned to write" I was like "dude, stop reading my mind!"

The amount of detail you see in the comic is amazing. The amount of detail you never get to see but Rich has in his head is staggeringly mind-blowing.

Where does it say Miko's out for good? I remember him saying that in a fall from grace one either goes full villain or redemption and saying something like "we wont know" as far as what Miko would've done... so I suppose this more or less rules Miko out from coming back, but I dunno. I get the feeling she could drop back in at one point or another.

[Chronos]

OK, a nice concrete question: How did he lay out the strip where Roy's falling?

[Deepkicker]

It's a good book. as for hints about the future...

Rich points out that the main focus of the story arc we are currently in is getting the order back together and rezzing Roy. Simple enough except he states that such an acheivement will come at a great price to both the order in general, and one character specifically. Said character is unnamed. There is also no real mention on Miko having any involvement from now on in the story

and now I feel bad cause I just flicked through someone else's copy. I did buy start of darkness though...

Interesting...One character specifically? The way things are going now I'm predicting that it's V.

[Lupy]

Does he give any clue as to how much V will have to pay? :smallconfused:

[Lissou]

We already know that Belkar's going to die, so I hope he'll be the one to pay.

[David Argall]

It's a good book. as for hints about the future...

Rich points out that the main focus of the story arc we are currently in is getting the order back together and rezzing Roy. Simple enough except he states that such an acheivement will come at a great price to both the order in general, and one character specifically. Said character is unnamed.


Hmm... That would fit nicely with my idea that V is about to gain, and lose, ultimate power. Of course Haley might deem this such if she had to recognize Therkla as a sister-wife. Or...

[busterswd]

I'd actually bet on Haley. Even after a full dungeon's worth of adventures (and several in between adventures before Dorukan's), AND the dragon's horde, she may still not have had enough to free her dad. We've also seen her have to start from 0 GP after helping out the resistance, and now paying for a resurrection for Roy?

Something may come up where she has one last chance to save her dad, or she may finally come up with the requisite amount of GP months later, only to find he's passed away in captivity, or somesuch. This may be V's chance to gain ultimate power in the arc, but I don't get the feeling he's going to be connected to Roy's ressurection.

[paladin_carvin]

I feel pretty sure it's gonna be Belkar. I mean, he's looking horrible. And, his fate is at hand. This is the most logical conclusion, but... well, logic is not always the master of the day. V is the most likely next to be the person that is hurt. Durkon is very solid right now. Roy... well, how can Roy pay something right now? Elan and Haley seem unlikely to me...

[kabbor]

I feel pretty sure it's gonna be Belkar. I mean, he's looking horrible. And, his fate is at hand. This is the most logical conclusion, but... well, logic is not always the master of the day. V is the most likely next to be the person that is hurt. Durkon is very solid right now. Roy... well, how can Roy pay something right now? Elan and Haley seem unlikely to me...

Well, Roy would think that his most precious possession, at the moment, is Celia. I can think of several ways he could loose her.

[Ampersand]

I'm going to be lending my copy to a friend at tonight's game, but there's one part of the book that just bugs the hell out of me.

It's in the Giant's commentary for Round 6. Specifically:

It was critical for Miko's behavior in the throne room to follow from her previous characterization while at the same time coming as a complete shock, if possible. The way I attempted to do this was to keep one key fact in how I conceived her character a secret from the audience, right from her very first appearance: Miko considered herself chosen by the Twelve Gods, personally, for something Special.

There's more, of course, but the bolded bit is what gets me. I've always thought that Miko's "Anakin moment" came pretty much out of left field and was a result of the Giant losing control of the character (after all, she was discussed far more than the main characters!) and just not knowing what to do with her. But this whole "keeping a secret from the audience" thing seems to smack of...ah...recent (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RetCon) additions (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Asspull) to Miko's character at best, and outright poor characterization at worst.

I mean, let's look at this. Where are the clues, prior to her fall, that Miko considered herself personally chosen by the gods? Reading from start to finish, mind, not retroactively justified. That she lectures the OotS? Roy is still the king of self-aggrandizing moralistic grandstanding...that's pretty much his entire character up until (arguably) halfway through what we've seen in Celestia. That she's mean to the OotS? That she treats them with the same lack of respect that they treat her with?

I admit that I'm not the most unbiased when it comes to Miko...I've always thought she was a more interesting character than the majority of the Order...but the whole "I keep major characterization facts secret!" thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[AKA_Bait]

I wonder if the high price will be paid by Durkon. We know he's going to die too, and before he returns to the Dwarf Lands. All we know with Belkar is that he is going to die at some point in the next calendar year and he isn't exactly the self sacrificing type.

I do think the Haley interpretation is plausable too though.

[NerfTW]

I'm going to be lending my copy to a friend at tonight's game, but there's one part of the book that just bugs the hell out of me.

It's in the Giant's commentary for Round 6. Specifically:


There's more, of course, but the bolded bit is what gets me. I've always thought that Miko's "Anakin moment" came pretty much out of left field and was a result of the Giant losing control of the character (after all, she was discussed far more than the main characters!) and just not knowing what to do with her. But this whole "keeping a secret from the audience" thing seems to smack of...ah...recent (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RetCon) additions (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Asspull) to Miko's character at best, and outright poor characterization at worst.

I mean, let's look at this. Where are the clues, prior to her fall, that Miko considered herself personally chosen by the gods? Reading from start to finish, mind, not retroactively justified. That she lectures the OotS? Roy is still the king of self-aggrandizing moralistic grandstanding...that's pretty much his entire character up until (arguably) halfway through what we've seen in Celestia. That she's mean to the OotS? That she treats them with the same lack of respect that they treat her with?

I admit that I'm not the most unbiased when it comes to Miko...I've always thought she was a more interesting character than the majority of the Order...but the whole "I keep major characterization facts secret!" thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

He always planned Miko to destroy the gate from her first appearance. That was how the plot was to move on to the next two gates. That was the whole purpose of her character.
From his post on the subject (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4390407&postcount=76)



OK, so let's clear something up: This mythological notion that Miko was originally intended to be the indefinite romantic interest for Roy is pure fantasy and unfounded speculation. Everything from the point where Miko drags the Order to Azure City in chains in #251 is more-or-less exactly what was always going to happen, with only some tone changed. Miko, and only Miko, was intended to kill Shojo, fall from grace, and ultimately destroy the Azurite gate. No one else was ever considered for this role, and this role was assigned to her from before her first appearance in #200. It was the entire narrative purpose of her character. Of course, I couldn't SAY that in the notes to Paladin Blues, because none of that had happened yet. There was never an intention for there to be a relationship with Roy, merely a few clumsy attempts on Roy's part to start one, followed by a rebuff and the Order's capture. Miko was always a "villain", and I did not intend for Roy to have a long-running relationship with a villain, merely to make her an appealing enough antagonist that some people were rooting for her.

[NENAD]

Logic/facts and a Miko lover/hater do not mix at all. It's better to ignore the inanity until it's forgotten.

[SteveMB]

I mean, let's look at this. Where are the clues, prior to her fall, that Miko considered herself personally chosen by the gods? (emphasis added)

Up until something forced her to confront her assumption that she's specially favored by the Twelve Gods, I just don't see a clear way of distinguishing between "considers herself to have a personal divinely ordained destiny" and "just a pompous self-important prig". The question is like asking, "Where are the clues, before the box is opened, that Schrodinger's Cat is alive (or not)?"

I just don't see the question, with the arbitrary restriction tacked on, as meaningful.

[SPoD]

I'm going to be lending my copy to a friend at tonight's game, but there's one part of the book that just bugs the hell out of me.

It's in the Giant's commentary for Round 6. Specifically:


There's more, of course, but the bolded bit is what gets me. I've always thought that Miko's "Anakin moment" came pretty much out of left field and was a result of the Giant losing control of the character (after all, she was discussed far more than the main characters!) and just not knowing what to do with her. But this whole "keeping a secret from the audience" thing seems to smack of...ah...recent (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RetCon) additions (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Asspull) to Miko's character at best, and outright poor characterization at worst.

I mean, let's look at this. Where are the clues, prior to her fall, that Miko considered herself personally chosen by the gods? Reading from start to finish, mind, not retroactively justified. That she lectures the OotS? Roy is still the king of self-aggrandizing moralistic grandstanding...that's pretty much his entire character up until (arguably) halfway through what we've seen in Celestia. That she's mean to the OotS? That she treats them with the same lack of respect that they treat her with?

I admit that I'm not the most unbiased when it comes to Miko...I've always thought she was a more interesting character than the majority of the Order...but the whole "I keep major characterization facts secret!" thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

So wait. You're actually saying that you read these commentaries and decided that because your long-held personal opinion of why the author did something does not match the author's stated reason why he did it, that means that the author is lying???

I think the tropes you were looking for were here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Fanon) and here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DracoInLeatherPants). You don't think Miko from OOTS is a more interesting character, you think that the character in your head that you labeled "Miko" is a more interesting character, and that anything the author writes about the OOTS Miko that doesn't match your Miko is his error.

[David Argall]

W&X
So wait. You're actually saying that you read these commentaries and decided that because your long-held personal opinion of why the author did something does not match the author's stated reason why he did it, that means that the author is lying???
Well, that is pretty much what the writer is confessing to here, that he deliberately tried to give us a false impression of the character in the strip.
"...I attempted to do this was to keep one key fact in how I conceived her character a secret from the audience, right from her very first appearance".

Now there are justified, even praiseworthy, lies by the writer, but they are still lies. So just how justified is this deception?
Frankly, I don't see it at all. I am not seeing any "now I understand". Nor do I see how the concealing of information really did much for the desired shock value. All I see is damage to our ability to trust the writer in the future.


anything the author writes about the OOTS Miko that doesn't match your Miko is his error.
It can be. Some of it is by definition.
The writer is mortal. What he says is not exactly what he wants to say, and that difference is his flaw. If he presented Miko as an atheist and intended to have her as a believer, he is in error, and the correct picture of Miko would be as an atheist.
An example we have had around here a time or two. We have an artist who can't draw a straight line and he tries to draw a square. But the lines curve outward and the results looks much like a circle. The artist may claim it is a square all he wishes, but we tell him the result is a circle.

[Remirach]

David, I don't mean to speak for SPOD, but my impression is that you are talking about two different things. SPOD is taking issue with "retcon," a characteristic of which is to actually change the revealed past and make it retroactively true. What you're saying is that by not revealing all of Miko's motives, and contriving to keep them secret, the Giant has committed a lie by omission. I don't agree, personally, but that's not as serious an accusation as to say the Giant is actually retconning Miko's motives, because he claims he'd had it in mind from the beginning. If he were doing both, he would be outright lying, as in saying something he knew was false.

[Chronos]

Huh, the part about that quote that had me scratching my head was the "...and kept it a secret" part. I thought it had been clear for quite a while that Miko considered herself Special in the Eyes of the Gods.

[Warren Dew]

I'm going to be lending my copy to a friend at tonight's game, but there's one part of the book that just bugs the hell out of me.

It's in the Giant's commentary for Round 6....

There's more, of course, but the bolded bit is what gets me. I've always thought that Miko's "Anakin moment" came pretty much out of left field and was a result of the Giant losing control of the character (after all, she was discussed far more than the main characters!) and just not knowing what to do with her. But this whole "keeping a secret from the audience" thing seems to smack of...ah...recent (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RetCon) additions (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Asspull) to Miko's character at best, and outright poor characterization at worst.

Thanks for pointing that out. I've always felt the same way - "out of left field" - about Miko's behavior when ignoring Hinjo to in strip 406 page 3 frame 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html), though it always felt to me a bit more like the author needing to get rid of Shojo and just picking whichever character happened to be closest regardless of the fact that it was poor characterization.

I mean, let's look at this. Where are the clues, prior to her fall, that Miko considered herself personally chosen by the gods?

I haven't got my copy of the book yet, but I do think there are clues about that part. To me, her prayers in page 3 frame 7 here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html) and the first page here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html) show pretty well that she thinks she has a special relationship with the gods. That's really not surprising, for a paladin. That she thought she had a special destiny isn't an unlikely detail. It's even correct - her destiny was to destroy the gate. She was just wrong about which god it was from; it was directly from Rich rather than from the southern gods. I think I'll believe Rich when he says it wasn't a retcon.

Reading from start to finish, mind, not retroactively justified. That she lectures the OotS? Roy is still the king of self-aggrandizing moralistic grandstanding...that's pretty much his entire character up until (arguably) halfway through what we've seen in Celestia. That she's mean to the OotS? That she treats them with the same lack of respect that they treat her with?

I admit that I'm not the most unbiased when it comes to Miko...I've always thought she was a more interesting character than the majority of the Order...but the whole "I keep major characterization facts secret!" thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Does it actually change anything? I have a hard time seeing how Miko's having a special destiny would make her actions in strip 406 any less uncharacteristic. It seems to me like her special destiny could equally well have been to unmask Shojo and deliver him to the Magistrates, replacing his rule with paladin rule, as was likely always intended in her eyes. What actually happens still seems to me uncharacteristic, because while her character as developed over the previous couple hundred strips is consistent with her thinking she had been specially chosen by the gods for something, it's not consistent with her being rash or illogical.

Granted I haven't read the bonus material in the book yet. What do you think? If the retcon really was intended all along, does strip 406 make sense, or does it still seem like poor characterization?

[SPoD]

Secrets are not lies. If the someone says, "I have a secret," they are not lying to you. They are simply not telling you something. It is not even a lie of omission, because a lie of omission requires the other party to not even know that there IS an omission. Everyone who reads a story knows that there are omissions that will not be revealed until later, because every author, ever, keeps secrets from the audience until the right time to reveal them. In this case, that secret was revealed after Miko killed Shojo. There are other secrets we know about, but do not know: What is V's gender? What is the MITD? Is Elan's father Lord Tyrinar or not? These are secrets, and Rich is not revealing them right now. When they are revealed, it doesn't mean that Rich was lying up until that point.

It is impossible for an author to "lie" within a story. Misleading impressions are part and parcel of good storytelling. He was not obligated to tell the audience every facet of Miko's personality the moment she walked onstage, and nothing that he DID tell us actively contradicts what came later (at least not to people who haven't deluded themselves into thinking Miko was something she wasn't).

If your trust in the author is damaged every time they misdirect you or surprise you, you are way too sensitive.

-------------

At any rate, Remirach is correct; I am taking issue with Ampersand's claim that Rich invented Miko's "secret" at the moment it was revealed, and then is trying to cover his ass by putting in the commentary that he intended it that way all along. That is an accusation of active deception, of lying to us NOW, in the commentary, and Ampersand's sole evidence for this is that it doesn't match up with what he always believed (namely, that Miko's fall was an Ass Pull). It has nothing to do with the fact that Rich concealed it (which seems to be your complaint), and everything to do with Ampersand believing that it never existed in the first place.

[SPoD]

What actually happens still seems to me uncharacteristic, because while her character as developed over the previous couple hundred strips is consistent with her thinking she had been specially chosen by the gods for something, it's not consistent with her being rash or illogical.

To my eyes, believing you are chosen by the gods for something without any concrete proof IS rash and illogical.* No other characterization is necessary. If you think you were singled out by destiny, and you take actions based on that belief, you are crazy, period. Miko was insane from Day One, it was just a quiet, "under control" insanity until her buttons got pushed.

Maybe the problem people are having is that they think Rich made a mistake in her characterization, when maybe he was trying to send a deliberate message about what he thought about certain personality types.

* Before someone tells me that her paladin powers were concrete proof, remember that every cleric and paladin in the city had the same powers, and she considered herself More Special than any of them.

[Warren Dew]

Secrets are not lies. If the someone says, "I have a secret," they are not lying to you. They are simply not telling you something. It is not even a lie of omission, because a lie of omission requires the other party to not even know that there IS an omission. Everyone who reads a story knows that there are omissions that will not be revealed until later, because every author, ever, keeps secrets from the audience until the right time to reveal them. In this case, that secret was revealed after Miko killed Shojo.

May I suggest spoilering that? Because ...

in fact the secret that's being talked about isn't revealed at all to readers of the web comic. It's only revealed in the bonus material in the book.

Edit to respond to interim post:


If you think you were singled out by destiny, and you take actions based on that belief, you are crazy, period.

Even if you are correct, as she was?

[Forum Staff]

This thread has veered completely off the original topic, which was discussing whether people had gotten the book or not.