PDA

View Full Version : Legacy Weapons



CasESenSITItiVE
2008-08-14, 03:58 PM
in the "Best/Worst books of 3.x" thread, a fairly common response was the legacy weapons book.

it was thus an unpleasant shock to find a legacy weapon as the reward at the end of the published adventure i was planning to run (Barrow of the Forgotten King).

Thus, my question is, what exactly is the problem with legacy weapons, and what might i do to fix one(ie. would taking away the feat prerequisites help?)?

hamishspence
2008-08-14, 04:04 PM
low power for level. Plus, DR is what you often need to break, and weapons specializing in doing that aren't in the legacy items. Also, while feats are a very valuable resourse, its also the fact that the more powerful the item, the bigger the penalties you have to take to saves, or HP, or whatever.

Douglas
2008-08-14, 04:17 PM
The problem is that the bonuses from pretty much every legacy weapon are too little too late, and accompanied by penalties to things any character who wants such a weapon would care about. Sure, that big sword gives +6 strength eventually... several levels later than you would normally get a Belt of Giant Strength +6. Meanwhile, you're sucking down a penalty on attack rolls, hp, etc. I'll take the belt and a normal sword for my fighter, thank you very much.

The feat "prereqs" have nothing to do with it. Those feats are really just a tracking mechanism for which rituals you have performed. Perform the ritual, pay the gold cost, and you get the feat without having to spend one of your normal feat slots on it.

Fixing the problem is, in principle, pretty simple. Take a look at the abilities the weapon gives, move them around or change them so that they appear at the right levels to be significantly useful and not preempted by other gear, and adjust the penalties and gold cost of the rituals so that the combination of bonuses and penalties is attractive at that cost. You may have to do some math to figure out how much duplicating all the item's abilities with normal equipment would cost. Keep in mind the net effect of both the bonuses and penalties when you do this - for example, +6 strength and a -2 attack penalty gives a total of +1 to attack and +3-5 to damage, and should probably be valued as about +4 strength. I, personally, would just eliminate the penalties entirely and balance the price solely on the bonuses. The total cost of all rituals required to unlock a legacy item's abilities should be somewhat less than the cost of duplicating those abilities with normal equipment (this is a special item, after all, and it's less flexible than the normal ensemble would be), but not too much less.

CasESenSITItiVE
2008-08-14, 04:28 PM
alright, thanks for the help!

Thurbane
2008-08-14, 04:33 PM
Like I said in the relevant thread, I really like the concept of legacy weapons, but the execution is sub-par.

The price and penalties you pay for being a legacy weapon wielder generally make them less useful and less powerful than "ordinary" magical items...

Edge of Dreams
2008-08-14, 04:35 PM
Or just go read the Artifact rules from 4e. I really really like that particular way of doing legendary items. Hard to explain in a quick post, but take a look for yourself.

If you really really want to use 3.5's type of legacy weapon, I recommend dropping the hp/save/etc. penalties entirely and reducing the ritual costs. Focus on using the rituals as a way to add plot hooks to the game instead of just monetary costs. Also, consider that you could easily homebrew legacy / artifact items that are not weapons to allow you to give one to each member of the party. Rogue gets a shiny cloak, wizard gets an awesome staff, etc..

Tokiko Mima
2008-08-14, 05:10 PM
A huge problem I have with Legacy weapons is that while a ritual usually tends to be unique, time consuming and expensive, there are quick casting spells in the WoL book that sever your Legacy and force you to redo your ritual all over again. How stupid would you feel to blow 36,000k gold and a trip to the Astral Plane, only to have to do the same thing over again because an enemy wizard had a Legacy killing spell loaded one day and used it to annoy you? Worse, you need to even redo the minor rituals too!

Also, like everyone said, Legacy weapons scale poorly with equivalent non-Legacy weapons you could buy at the same level and are less customizable. You can't add an extra +fire weapon enhancement to a legacy weapon before heading to the Iron Wastes. For the most part they rely on daily uses of spells with low DC's which makes the item little more than extra buffing/utility tools, rather than adding effects when one strikes a blow especially well as with the Burst weapon enhancements.

The penalties are outrageously out of balance depending on the class you happen to be. Most caster items have a penalty to caster level which is insanely easy to raise (grab an ioun stone!) to compensate or ignore and has no appreciable out of combat effect, whereas skill users take a universal penalty to all their skills that is impossible to compensate for and makes them worse at everything they do all the time.

Waspinator
2008-08-14, 06:49 PM
Like I said in the relevant thread, I really like the concept of legacy weapons, but the execution is sub-par.

The price and penalties you pay for being a legacy weapon wielder generally make them less useful and less powerful than "ordinary" magical items...

Quoted for truth. Personally, I would just drop the whole penalty thing and just tone down the bonuses the thing gives. Or, just make sure every party member gets an appropriate legacy weapon and balance it that way.

Jimp
2008-08-14, 07:31 PM
Or just go read the Artifact rules from 4e. I really really like that particular way of doing legendary items. Hard to explain in a quick post, but take a look for yourself.


I'd recommend this too. You can find the rules in the 4e DMG in the Artifacts sections. It works on a sort of 'relationship' scale, where the more your goals match the artifacts the more it likes you and the more it likes you the more power you unlock. If the artifact dislikes you then it starts to add penalties.

Proven_Paradox
2008-08-14, 08:03 PM
If you want an example of legacy weapons done right, you needn't look in the Weapons of Legacy book. The Tome of Battle has several legacy weapons that are actually quite strong. The Umbral Awn in particular is brutal--Invisibility at will and bonuses to sneak attack: delicious cake. You'll take a hit to fort saves and hit points, but the Shadowstrike ability the blade grants will make up for the attack roll loss (well, on any attacks that actually matter if you're sneak attacking). Faithful Avenger absorbs the HP loss and most of the fort save loss by granting bonus constitution, and Boundless Determination on a mono-class Crusader means more temporary HP than you can shake a stick at.

Overall, the idea behind legacy weapons is one I really like, but as some others have stated, most of them aren't worth the penalties one must take to use them. Still, fixing them isn't that hard with some homebrewing.