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Frosty
2008-08-14, 05:20 PM
I'm a bit iffy on how Power Attack works and stacks in this situation. Let's say I have Favored enemy (Evil) and the Favored Power Attack feat and I have Supreme Power Attack from taking all levels of Frenzied Berserker.

Assume that I have 20 BAB, 34 Strength, a +5 Greatsaxe, and no other source of damage from equipment.

If I charge <rolls randomly> oh say...the Aspect of Asmodeus (FC2 version) using Leap Attack and Power Attack for max (let's also say I shock trooper or whatever, but that's not relevant to the damage), what damage would I do? I am not sure exactly how it all stacks.

Thinker
2008-08-14, 05:24 PM
Do you also have Favored Power Attack?

Frosty
2008-08-14, 05:25 PM
Yes, I forgot to add that

Kyeudo
2008-08-14, 05:26 PM
IIRC Supreme Power Attack doubles your damage bonus from Power Attack, so this is simple math.

1d12 (Greataxe) +12 (Strength) +40 (Supreme Power Attack) +5 (enhancement bonus) +2 (Favored Enemy)

If your favored enemy bonus is greater than +2, adjust accordingly.

AstralFire
2008-08-14, 05:28 PM
Frenzied Barb multiplies your PA, AFAIK all other PA increases add 100% of the base 1:1 ratio. So add up all your 100%s and then multiply by two.

Frosty
2008-08-14, 05:29 PM
That'd be fine if it was *just* Supreme Power Attack I'm wondering. But here it's Supreme Power Attack + Favored Power Attack + Leap Attack

Frosty
2008-08-14, 05:31 PM
Frenzied Barb multiplies your PA, AFAIK all other PA increases add 100% of the base 1:1 ratio. So add up all your 100%s and then multiply by two.

No, Leap Attack doubles your base PA as well. 2-handed Leap attack Power Attack is 4:1, not 3:1. And is there an errata on FB I should know about?

AstralFire
2008-08-14, 05:33 PM
No, Leap Attack doubles your base PA as well. 2-handed Leap attack Power Attack is 4:1, not 3:1. And is there an errata on FB I should know about?

"you can double the extra damage dealt by your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack."


That'd be fine if it was *just* Supreme Power Attack I'm wondering. But here it's Supreme Power Attack + Favored Power Attack + Leap Attack

Well:
Two-Handed: +100%
Leap Attack: +100%
Favored Power Attack: +100%

You have 400% ratio. (4 Damage:1 AB)

Supreme doubles it.

So you get a +8 damage for each -1.

Frosty
2008-08-14, 05:35 PM
The errata for Leap Attack is widely-regarded as meaning that Leap attack 2-handed = 4x damage.

Eldariel
2008-08-14, 05:35 PM
Actually, yes there's an errata. It's changed to +100% modifier like Leap Attack. They could either stack like:

2:1 (normal)
4:1 (Leap Attack)
8:1 (Supreme Power Attack)

or

2:1 (normal)
4:1 (Leap Attack)
6:1 (Supreme Power Attack)


depending on whether the +100% is applied to your base modifier or your total modifier. Favored Power Attack isn't erratad as far as I know, so the complete would be:


3:1 (Favored Power Attack)
6:1 (Leap Attack)
12:1 (Supreme Power Attack)

or

3:1 (Favored Power Attack)
6:1 (Leap Attack)
9:1 (Supreme Power Attack)

or

3:1 (Favored Power Attack)
5:1 (Leap Attack)
7:1 (Supreme Power Attack)


those are the only stackings that make any kind of sense. The rest would be up to your DM, I suppose - the errata isn't quite particular (the question is what's considered "normal") on whether the +100% is applied before set modifiers or after them and whether it applies on your total Power Attack or your Base Power Attack.

AstralFire
2008-08-14, 05:40 PM
Damn Errata. Always tripping me up.

Frosty
2008-08-14, 05:41 PM
Damn Errata. Always tripping me up.

Now you see why I'm confused?

Eldariel
2008-08-14, 05:48 PM
3:1 > 5:1 > 7:1 is the most likely answer, since the easiest reading of "normal" is what you've got before modifiers.

AstralFire
2008-08-14, 05:50 PM
Google says the 12:1 variant is rather popular for theorycraft, but as a player I'd take the 7:1 just to not make my DM cry and then plot to make everything incorporeal and ranged with huge amounts of DR for my type of weapon.

Frosty
2008-08-14, 05:51 PM
Ok, how would it work if instead of Leap Attack and Greataxe, you now do Supreme + Favored Power Attack while chaging on a horse with a lance (2-handed) and you have the Spirited Charge feat?

fractic
2008-08-14, 05:53 PM
Spirited charge says triple damage which I take to mean after alll other calculations are done.

Frosty
2008-08-14, 05:54 PM
So...5:1 multiplied by 3 = 15:1?

fractic
2008-08-14, 05:55 PM
basically yeah. If normal damage with powerattack would be xdy+z then with spirited charge you'd get 3xdy+3z

Treguard
2008-08-14, 06:37 PM
*backs slowly away from the thread before running away screaming* :smalleek:

Chronos
2008-08-14, 06:47 PM
Spirited charge says triple damage which I take to mean after alll other calculations are done.Multiplication in D&D does not work that way.

Whenever you're doing calculations like this, each multiplier only works off of the base. You never multiply one multiplier times another. So if Spirited Charge with a lance gives you a x3, and whatever other Power Attack boosters you have are giving you x5, then you end up doing x7.

fractic
2008-08-14, 06:48 PM
Multiplication in D&D does not work that way.

Whenever you're doing calculations like this, each multiplier only works off of the base. You never multiply one multiplier times another. So if Spirited Charge with a lance gives you a x3, and whatever other Power Attack boosters you have are giving you x5, then you end up doing x7.

The difference is that spirited charge isn't multiplying the power attack damage, it's multiplying the overall damage.

[edit]: Basically I'd say that using spirited charge with a lance would be equivalent to scoring a critical hit with a x3 crit weapon.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-14, 07:27 PM
The difference is that spirited charge isn't multiplying the power attack damage, it's multiplying the overall damage.

Yep. It multiplies your total, final basic weapon damage, excepting only extra dice (like sneak attack, damage from flaming, or the like).

Edit: Like I said in the other thread, this is why Cavaliers are a bit mental. If your mount can survive the breath weapon blast (Special Mount and evasion kthxplz), you can one-shot a dragon. (Making you almost as good as a spellcaster in that special situation - mounted charge with huge PA.)

Keld Denar
2008-08-15, 12:57 AM
FB's Supreme PA and Favored Power Attack are both worded similarly, so I'd assume they'd follow normal D&D stacking rules. Supreme PA is 4:1, Favored PA is 3:1 so you'd get 4 + (3-1) = 6:1. Leap Attack increases PA by 100%, and would then give you the commonly cited 12:1.

Also, things like crits and charging multipliers are added last, after all the applicable damage is added up. So a crit with a great axe would yeild 36:1 return on PA, plus 3 times strength, base, and other applicable damage. Thats 720 damage just from PA, which is almost enough to smoke the Tarrasque before the damage dice hit the table. Silly? Yes, most definitely.

Eldariel
2008-08-15, 08:53 AM
*sigh* Except you missed the Frenzied Berserker-errata (and the lack of errata for Favored Power Attack). Again.

Frosty
2008-08-15, 10:37 AM
*sigh* Except you missed the Frenzied Berserker-errata (and the lack of errata for Favored Power Attack). Again.

So how would you add in Spirited charge?

Eldariel
2008-08-15, 10:42 AM
There're only so many ways you CAN add it. I'd go with the "full damage gets multiplied"-part, although I could see reasoning for adding D&Dish multipliers to the PA damage (making it FAR less powerful; 7:1*3 is "just" 9:1).

Frosty
2008-08-15, 11:14 AM
So 21x damage?

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-15, 11:26 AM
The Power Attack is always part of the "whole weapon damage, minus extra dice" unit. Which is Spirited Charge and critical hits multiply. (Although those two stack, don't they? So a critical hit with a lance on a Spirited Charge is x5, not x9.)

fractic
2008-08-15, 11:31 AM
Crits and spirited charge stack but this is of course subject to the normal multiplication rules. Lances are x3 crit so on a crit with a lance using spirited charge you would do 5 times normal damage.

Gralamin
2008-08-15, 12:00 PM
My Interpretation:

Two-Handed Weapon = +100% (in other words x2)
Favored Power Attack = +100% (In other words x2, x3 when you already include the bonus from using a two-handed weapon)


If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat.
Leap Attack = +100% of normal damage (In other words x2)


Supreme Power Attack: A 10th-level frenzied berserker deals +100% the normal damage from her use of the Power Attack feat. In other words, when using the Power Attack feat, a frenzied berserker wielding a two-handed weapon gains a +4 bonus on damage rolls (instead of a +2 bonus) for each 1 penalty she applies to her attack rolls.
Supreme Power Attack = +100% of normal damage (In other words x2)

Looking at this from this perspective, you first add up the "normal power attack damage", then Apply Leap attack and Supreme Power attack.
Two-Handed Weapon + Favored Power Attack = +200% or x3
Leap Attack + Supreme Power attack = +200% or x3 The above (They should add, not multiply, since they both only apply to the normal Power Attack damage only)

So...
3:1 (Favored/Two-handed weapon)
6:1 (Leap Attack)
9:1 (Supreme Power Attack)


When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance).
Spirited Charge = x3 Overall

So assume you deal 1d8+25, And Power Attack for 20, and Spirited Charge.
20*9 = 180
1d8+205 before Spirited Charge
3d8+615 after Spirited Charge (Average damage of 628.5)

Crit = x3
+200% + 200% = +400% = x5
5d8+1025 (Average damage of 1047.5)

Frosty
2008-08-15, 12:05 PM
Is there any official CR20 or lower creature with that many HPs? :smalleek:

Eldariel
2008-08-15, 12:14 PM
The Tarrasque.

fractic
2008-08-15, 12:15 PM
The Tarrasque.

You'd think so but no, only 858 HP.

Treguard
2008-08-15, 12:30 PM
Can you use Leap Attack whilst charging on a mount? One can presumably argue that the horse jumps for you but would it fly with a DM?

Eldariel
2008-08-15, 12:30 PM
Oh, we're looking at the effed up numbers (7:1 looks more natural than 9:1). Well then. Although if you just feated the Tarrasque with Improved Toughnesses/Epic Toughnesses instead of Toughnesses, it would work out.

Frosty
2008-08-15, 01:45 PM
Where is Lord Silvanos when we need him? I trust him more than any FAQ.


Can you use Leap Attack whilst charging on a mount? One can presumably argue that the horse jumps for you but would it fly with a DM?

I'd either say no or say that the Horse needs the Leap Attack feat.

Gralamin
2008-08-15, 01:56 PM
Where is Lord Silvanos when we need him? I trust him more than any FAQ.



I'd either say no or say that the Horse needs the Leap Attack feat.

What if you jump 10 feet onto the horse as part of a charge, while the horse is charging the enemy? :smalltongue:
But yes, generally Leap Attack and mounts don't work together, or both mount and rider need leap attack, or some similiar requirement.

Frosty
2008-08-15, 05:56 PM
Oh, we're looking at the effed up numbers (7:1 looks more natural than 9:1). Well then. Although if you just feated the Tarrasque with Improved Toughnesses/Epic Toughnesses instead of Toughnesses, it would work out.

You mean the Terrasque can survive a 7:1 but not a 9:1 ratio?

Eldariel
2008-08-15, 06:00 PM
Yes. The 7:1 ratio deals, with those numbers (that are admittedly ripped from a hat), 847.5 on average. That's not epic, so cut 15, leaving 832.5. Since the Tarrasque has 858 HP, it'll be hurting, but alive at 25.5 HP (rounded to 25). And it now gets to full attack the charger with negative AC.

Frosty
2008-08-15, 06:02 PM
Umm...Ride-by-attack?

fractic
2008-08-15, 06:07 PM
The Tarrasque doesn't have powerattack so it'll only do 84.5 average damage on a full attack not that impressive really. Swallowing isn't going to help much either.

Eldariel
2008-08-15, 06:16 PM
The Tarrasque doesn't have powerattack so it'll only do 84.5 average damage on a full attack not that impressive really. Swallowing isn't going to help much either.

Except that the Tarrasque DOES have Power Attack if you go through its feats. It also has 48 points of BAB. Do the math.

fractic
2008-08-15, 06:17 PM
Oh you're right it's all the way at the end. Well you're dead meat then.

Frosty
2008-08-15, 06:20 PM
Again...Ride-by-Attack, and hopefully a Major Cloak of Displacement for that 50% miss chance. Or better yet...most melee builds should have Elusive Target. Negate Power Attack baby!

Eldariel
2008-08-15, 06:25 PM
Again...Ride-by-Attack, and hopefully a Major Cloak of Displacement for that 50% miss chance. Or better yet...most melee builds should have Elusive Target. Negate Power Attack baby!

Meh, better have Ring of Freedom of Movement too or you'll just end up Grappled (not swallowed yet), which is a bad place to be in. Heck, it might decide to chew you before swallowing you. At that point, you're forced to dig for a Light Weapon and somehow penetrate DR 15/Epic, or alternatively beat its Grapple-check (something crappy like 81).

Frosty
2008-08-17, 01:55 PM
I just got an idea on how to combined Spirited Charge and Leap Attack!

Now imagine this: You're a Centaur Paladin who gave up his Special Mount for Charging Smite. Ok, so you're a 10th level Paladin and someone you got Supreme Power Attack (maybe you're epic or something). You charge with a Lance (and you use Spirited charge. I as a DM allow Centaurs to use all mounted feats) and use Power Attack, Leap Attack, Favored Power Attack, and you're doing a Charging Smite. So you'd be doing 9x Power Attack (base PA is 3:1 for a two-handed against Favored enemy. Doubled by Leap attack is 6. Another double by Supreme PA means 9) and then you add on 30 damage from Charging Smite (3 damage per level of paladin) and *then* you'd triple the whole thing for 27x PA + 90 damage + regular 3x weapon rolls + weapon enhancements.

Knaight
2008-08-17, 04:03 PM
Get the caster to throw in a true strike then go for broke. That said that particular combo is just asking for the DM to throw ranged specialists with flight at you.