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Jimp
2008-08-14, 05:48 PM
Let's say we have a party of 4: 1 melee class, a1 skillmonkey class, 1 divine caster, 1 arcane caster. Core only. Each member is level 12 and are up against a CR 12 Red Dragon.
What builds/strategies would work effectively?

Saph
2008-08-14, 05:55 PM
Depends. What optimisation/cheese level is in use by the DM and players?

- Saph

Mushroom Ninja
2008-08-14, 05:55 PM
What sort of arcane caster?

Frosty
2008-08-14, 05:55 PM
Prepare lots of ice spells? Take spell penetration to get pass DR?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-14, 05:58 PM
Dexterity damage, and lots of it. Rays of Clumsiness and Exhastion FTW. If you have a Rod of Quicken, you can do it in one round, otherwise, the skillmonkey and corpse will need to meatshield for you.

FinalJustice
2008-08-14, 05:58 PM
How long until someone says the Shiv... words?

Edit: Yeah, I didn't pay attention to the 'Core Only' part, so I'm guessing someone will overlook it too. =P

Mushroom Ninja
2008-08-14, 06:00 PM
How long until someone says the Shiv... words?

You mean SHIVERING TOUCH? Not long at all :smallbiggrin:

Saph
2008-08-14, 06:00 PM
How long until someone says the Shiv... words?

As long as it takes for someone to fail to read the "Core only" part of the description. :P No Ray of Clumsiness, no Shivering Touch.

- Saph

Edit: Ninjad. Sort of.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-08-14, 06:03 PM
The casters should makes sure the melee guy can fly. Have dispell Magic read if the Dragon decides to get tricky with spell casting.

Covered In Bees
2008-08-14, 06:10 PM
There's no CR 12 Red Dragon entry. A CR 13 Red Dragon is Juvenile; let's use that. It's got saves of +14/+10/+12, no Frightful Presence, no SR, and it casts as a Sorcerer 3.

Have the fighters avoid getting into full-attack range and have the Wizard/Sorc hit it with a few Will-save-or-lose effects. Or, heck, the Sorc might have Spell Focus: Transmutation and be using Flesh to Stone for that 50% chance per casting, or something.

Let's see, 20 base INT/CHA, +4 item... +7. 6th level spells have a DC of 23, 5th of 22. So, yeah, just hit it with . Make sure it doesn't kill you first by staying invisible/mirror imaged/whatever and having Fire Resistance up.

That was easy, I guess? Boils down to "stand back and let the casters take care of it." 3.X WHEEEEEE

Mushroom Ninja
2008-08-14, 06:15 PM
have the party spread out. You don't want to be tpk'd by a breath weapon

Covered In Bees
2008-08-14, 06:16 PM
have the party spread out. You don't want to be tpk'd by a breath weapon

8d10 fire damage isn't TPKing anyone. FITARs have HP, arcanist has protection from/resist energy, Rogue has great Ref save and Evasion, Cleric has HP, healing *and* energy resistance spells.

kamikasei
2008-08-14, 06:18 PM
There's no CR 12 Red Dragon entry. A CR 13 Red Dragon is Juvenile; let's use that. It's got saves of +14/+10/+12, no Frightful Presence, no SR, and it casts as a Sorcerer 3.

A CR 13 Red Dragon is Young Adult, which moves up a size category, has saves +16/+11/+13, Frightful Presence 21, SR 19, and casting as Sorcerer 5.

Spamming on its weak save while prepared and avoiding its attacks still works, though.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-08-14, 06:18 PM
True, but minimizing damage is always desirable.

Chronicled
2008-08-14, 06:23 PM
True, but minimizing damage is always desirable.

True, but minimizing damage =/= avoiding a TPK.

Covered In Bees
2008-08-14, 06:23 PM
A CR 13 Red Dragon is Young Adult, which moves up a size category, has saves +16/+11/+13, Frightful Presence 21, SR 19, and casting as Sorcerer 5.

Spamming on its weak save while prepared and avoiding its attacks still works, though.

Oh, whoops, my bad. Yeah. +16/+11/+13. 45% chance per spell without spell focus is still "it goes down in a few rounds." SR 19 isn't very threatening at level 12, especially with Spell Penetration (and if you're stuck with Core Only...). It won't go down quite as quickly on average, but it will go down pretty quickly.

Frightful Presence isn't an issue thanks to Heroes' Feast.

Glyphic
2008-08-14, 06:24 PM
I'd say the CR would need to be increased for this exercise. ECL+4, perhaps? Dragons are strong for their CR, but still..

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-14, 06:46 PM
Suggested wealth by level is 88,000 GP per PC and it depends on how your DM/GM lets you break it down for his campaign and how he lets crafting feats operate to adjust that wealth upward. Bag of Tricks Tan is really nice at 6,300 GP. You don't alway need the best/most expensive items it you can spread that wealth around a bit and have more options. Dragon Bane weapons are only a +1 enchantment.

Candles of Invocation take a Cl-17 to make and only cost 8,400 GP in game but I've never played in a game where a DM/GM let me purchase one so doubtful how helpful someone saying to buy one is really being.

Under that same premise though Spell Scrolls of Sixth level and under should be available to the PCs IMO.

Disposable magical wealth should probably be in the 15,000 - 30,000 GP range for each PC. (Without a Crafting Feat your DM/GM can disallow any item or even worse have the dragon prepare for your tactics to negate them and give it a few more rounds when things start going into a tailspin).

Edit: Don't forget to factor in the saves it gets Fort +16, Reflex +11, Will +13 or the (EX) DC 21 Fear Aura with a range of 150', SR 19 and a 10D10 DC24 Breath Weapon 50' Cone every 1D4 rounds

The Fighter should probably be a Ranger with Favored Enemy Dragons +6 with two other Favored Enemies +2, +2. (His Favored Enemy Bonus is +4 at Ranger -5 if you want to PRC or multiclass him or her).

There is always the Wand Wielding Sneak Attack Rogue (Possibly with a dip into the Assassin PRC) for the Skill Monkey. Preferably with Mirror Image or Greater Invisibility despite the dragon senses.

A Half-Elf Bard Diplomancer might be interesting for the Skill Monkey if the dragon is treated as a NPC and doesn't have to be killed.

A multi class skill Monkey Rogue -3, Monk -2 (or Monk -1, Barbarian -1), Assassin -7 could be interesting depending on alignment restrictions in this scenario. (A Ranger -5 gets a +4 Favored Enemy Bonus (Dragons) and a F-2 would pick up 2 bonus feats if Assassin doesn't work as a PRC)

As powerful as Druids are in core, in this scenario the divine caster should probably be a Cleric Thaumaturgist -5 depending on the Cohort they receive and how the various Planar Ally spells work in game.

I'd probably make a wizard a Diviner and Loremaster in Core Thaumaturgist is a lot better if you can swing it say original spell research Lesser Planar Ally and a sorcerer a Battle Sorcerer.

It depends where you encounter it. Fire Resistance buffs or magic items other buffs based on your DM/GM. Mirror Image is a very nice buff against a dragon

Improved Initiative is nice for going first.

Acid Fog is nice in a cave type environment if it isn't to large with No save and No SR before Wall of Force to lock it up if no other exits. (Chain Lightning could also be interesting in the same scenario).

Cone of Cold seems like a No brainer but it has SR and Reflex save for half despite it's Vulnerability to Cold (It does cast spells as a Sorc -5 and have treasure with an Int - 14 so it would be odd if it didn't address that weakness IMO (Scroll, Ring or Known Spell).

Disintegrate is an interesting spell but it has Spell Resistance and partial Fortitude Up to 24D6 but possibly just 5D6 or Nothing. (Pretty much the same for Flesh to Stone with SR and Fortitude negating).

Harm spells by the cleric up to 120 HP at CL12 (Save and Will Saves) can drop it down to 60. It has 218 Hit Points on the average.

Glyph of Warding or Greater Glyph of Warding (Cold is hard to cast in this scenario unless using a scroll) and running from the dragon after casting it. (Some campaigns will let you use them as the magical equivalent of land mines though).

Depending on party alignment a Planar Ally to summon a LE Efreeti or CG Noble Djinni with a Thaumaturgist -5 (Shoot the Thaumaturgist cohort might be an Efreeti or Noble Djinni in some games :smallsmile:) using the Planar Ally spell. This strategy mostly depends on how your DM lets those spells operate in his game. (In core really hard to make a arcane spellcaster a Thaumaturgist without using the Variant Spellcaster class)

Bestow Curse (SR Yes Will Negates) could be interesting with a couple but it has SR19 and pretty decent saves.

Evards Black Tentacles iffy how effective that would be.

My 2 cents which leave plenty of room for improvement. Hope it was helpful.

P.S. Summon the 12 HD Aspect of Bahumut with 179 base HP without buffing would be a nice summoning to sic on an evil dragon buffed by a Thaumaturgist but unfortuneatley not core :smallcool:

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-14, 07:25 PM
I'd say the CR would need to be increased for this exercise. ECL+4, perhaps? Dragons are strong for their CR, but still..

Yep. In theory, a CR 12 dragon should take up, what, 20% of the party's resources?

A potential TPK, like a boss-fight or any proper lone dragon fight, should be EL party level +3 or +4, so a CR 15-16 dragon. That'd be an adult red dragon, CR 15. (Saves +18/+13/+17, SR 21.)

This doesn't change the tactics, though. You still use the same, standard protection spells, and the same save-or-lose attacks. Trying to whittle down its HP is neither necessary nor smart.

Leewei
2008-08-14, 10:09 PM
Use control winds to effectively keep it from flying. Cast both protection from elements and resist elements on PCs to allow them to function despite breath attacks. Cast stone skin on the various PCs to take the edge off of the dragon's multiple melee attacks. Cold-based spell attacks are nice to have. Spells and effects with no saving throws are nifty here as well. Dust of Sneezing and Choking is nice for an opener. If a PC or summoned ally is immune to stunning (or is wearing a Necklace of Adaptation), merely tossing the dust about will stun the dragon for several rounds fairly guaranteeably. Negating dragon fear is a big deal. Heroes' feast as was mentioned is a personal favorite. Greater heroism is a nice alternate.

Heroes' feast as a side effect also grants immunity to poison for a while, so cloudkill and similar save-for-reduced-effect spells are quite usable.

Make sure your skill monkey has absolutely nailed his Spot, Search, Listen, Sense Motive, Hide and Move Silently skills, and has obtained the Hide in Plain Sight ability (a Shadow Dancer dip is nice for this) as well as the Darkstalker feat to avoid detection by the dragon's superior senses. Scout the lair out well before striking the dragon to avoid nasty surprises. Dragons are ferocious opponents, and even worse, they're very intelligent.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-15, 02:27 PM
I was thinking more about this thread and wondering what Core spells the dragon would choose to know as a Sorcerer - 5 that Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domains as arcane spells.


For the 6 Cantrips:

Read Magic opens up using spell scrolls (Cleric and Sorcerer spells).
Dancing Lights could be interesting for a distraction in a dungeon or cavern system.
Detect Magic.
Ghost Sounds probably for distraction purposes.
Probably Prestidigitation.

Maybe Arcane Mark or Message or Magehand or Cure Minor or Purify Food and Drink or Guidance for the +1 to Saves.

For the 4 First level spells:

Charm Person has a lot of potential in the short term against parties turning an enemy into an ally, although short range of 35' (Usually pretty easy to identify the low will Fighter in a party by an outside observer). Nice for a Dragon using a spyhole with line of sight.

Cure Light Wounds for personal healing since the Dragon has so many hit points and this will allow faster recovery to 100%?

Grease for battle field control on the ground in a lair. (Not just for the PCs)

Silent Image (Lots of potential: What if cast by an Invisible Flying Dragon of a Red Dragon flying alongside in proximity not an attack per se and shouldn't negate personal Invisibility but could trigger response from the adventuring party using up their resources really strong tactic against Nova parties). Other distraction factors including covering traps.

For the 2 Second level spells:

Augury with a 10 round casting time for a 75% chance of knowing how the dragon will fare in combat against a band of adventurers and whether it should avoid the combat (Woe). Can do several casting based on being Unprepped or Buffed, Partially prepped and buffed or Loaded for Adventures with full buffs.

Invisibility at 1 minute a level for that first potential surprise attack.

----------------------------
Buffs:

Preferably Scrolls over Potions since they are cheaper and the Dragon can Read Magic:

Mirror Image (Curious how this spell interacts mechanically in the various campaigns with the Invisibility spell if cast before or after the Dragon is invisible and when the Dragon becomes visible after an attack)

Protection from Elements

Resist Elements

Protection from Arrows for aeriel encounters

Slow Poison (Mostly for poisoned weapons but should be effective against the Dust of Choking and Sneezing crafted from the Poison spell (Nice tactic of course I was in the party that ran into the Dragon wearing the relatively inexpensive Necklace of Adaptation with a Gust of Wind spell which ended up in a TPK from an Evil EM/GM (There was a bit of a trust issue after that:smallcool:))

Alter Self for turning into a Large Dragon creature might be useful in a case by case situation.

Other temporary and permanent magic items useful to the Dragon that the party will gain for defeating it.

I'm sure plenty of ways to improve on the Dragon tactics.

Siegel
2008-08-15, 02:30 PM
#1 leave them allone, avoid them whenever possibyl

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-15, 03:49 PM
Some of those PC adventurers are greedy for treasure. Others are Heroes and others are greedy Heroes who don't mind profiting from their good deeds.:smallsmile:

AslanCross
2008-08-15, 05:24 PM
Get the dragon out of the air (control winds, for example). The last thing you want is fighting the dragon on its own terms. Keep in mind that while you can spread out to avoid the breath weapon, you can also take massive damage from the dragon when it does a full attack.

Triaxx
2008-08-15, 06:08 PM
Gust of wind as he plummets to attack. Slam him into the ground. Then aim to maim, and remove a wing. A good DM will know how to do that. Once he's trapped on the ground, you just have to run him out of spells. Then he's pure melee, and you can pound him with things he can't counter straight up.

Covered In Bees
2008-08-15, 06:42 PM
Then aim to maim, and remove a wing. A good DM will know how to do that.

A good DM will look at you in disgust for suggesting a hit location table. A bad but obliging DM will improvise something, which will be horribly unbalanced.

Sorry, but "tell the DM you want to remove a wing with your attack and hope he lets you" isn't a good strategy.

LordOkubo
2008-08-15, 06:49 PM
Alternatively, you could build an Acid Flask rogue and go for HP damage.

Let's see.

Core is only 7d6 damage on each attack. Let's say he has Haste from something: Touch AC is really easy to hit, so assume it all hits, (probably have more then a +10 on the lowest attack anyway).

6 attacks with TWFing, Rapid Shot, Haste.

So 42d6 averages 147 damage from that character. That's more then half of the HP of any CR 12 or 13 Dragon. The rest of the party can probably manage the rest.

Covered In Bees
2008-08-15, 06:52 PM
Alternatively, you could build an Acid Flask rogue and go for HP damage.


"Whee! Let's abuse minor quirks of system to make characters with a gamebreakingly high damage output! Nothing wrong with that, kids!"

LordOkubo
2008-08-15, 06:55 PM
"Whee! Let's abuse minor quirks of system to make characters with a gamebreakingly high damage output! Nothing wrong with that, kids!"

I'm sorry, what minor quirk am I abusing, and how on earth is that gamebreaking?

Jack_Simth
2008-08-15, 07:09 PM
Alternatively, you could build an Acid Flask rogue and go for HP damage.

Let's see.

Core is only 7d6 damage on each attack. Let's say he has Haste from something: Touch AC is really easy to hit, so assume it all hits, (probably have more then a +10 on the lowest attack anyway).

6 attacks with TWFing, Rapid Shot, Haste.

So 42d6 averages 147 damage from that character. That's more then half of the HP of any CR 12 or 13 Dragon. The rest of the party can probably manage the rest.

Doesn't work (at least, not in that manner), I'm afraid.

See, "Prepare to throw a splash weapon" is under the "Actions in Combat" table as a full-round action.

Now, you can use UMD on certain spells from wands to get a similar effect (Produce Flame and Flame Blade are effect spells, not touch spells), but with the Red Dragon being immune to fire, those two aren't going to work so hot (plus you'd mostly need to go into melee range for the Flame Blade to reach, but nothing actually stops you from dual-wielding Produce Flame, as it's an effect spell).

Chill Touch will work, but as an actual Touch spell, you can't dual-wield it (unless you can con your DM into letting you deliver the touches with both hands), and it requires you go into melee range (unless you do something like using two charges from a wand of Spectral hand first - another Effect spell).

Frosty
2008-08-15, 07:18 PM
Why not just dual-wield short swords and UMD a wand of Wraithstrike? Oh wait, core only...

ericgrau
2008-08-15, 07:35 PM
Well, to avoid speculation, let's start with exactly what we have and exactly what we're up against.

Resources
level 11 party at most or, conversely, bump up the dragon''s CR. As someone mentioned, CR will be higher than party level. EDIT: Nevermind, see next post.
30 to 77 + 11 * con HP each
5th-6th level spells for mage and cleric. For reference, each 10d6 averages to 35. See also dragon's saves below.
Roughly 20/15 AB (~75%/50% hit), ~20 damage per hit from the fighter (assumes 22 strength, plus rage or greater weapon focus & weapon spec, MW or +1 weapon)
Roughly 15/10 AB (~50%/25% hit), ~25 damage per SA from the rogue

Target
Defenses
Physical
AC 26 (touch 8), 218 HP

Magical
Saves +16/+11/+13
SR 19 (~60% chance for above caster to break, w/o any penetration)

Special
immunity to fire, vulnerability to cold
DR 5/magic
EDIT: immune to sleep and paralysis effects

Attacks
Breath
10d10 (55 avg.) cone of fire, DC 24 reflex for half

Melee
+18 AB

primary (+18): 1 bite 2d8+10 (19 avg.)
secondary (+16, or +13 w/o multi-attack):
2 claws 2d6+5 (12 avg. each)
2 wings 1d8+5 (9.5 avg each)
1 tail slap 2d6+15 (22 avg. each)

tota damage on a single attack: 19 avg. @ +18 AB
(10.5 avg. vs. 27 AC, ~4-18 avg. damage otherwise depending on AC)

total damage on full attack: 19 avg. @ +18 AB + 65 avg. @ +16 AB
(44 avg vs. 27 AC, ~10-75 damage otherwise depending on AC)

"27 AC" is an arbitrary AC, used to get the values and ranges above to get a rough idea

Crush
2d8+15 (24 avg. per round), and target pinned
standard action to initiate. DC 24 Reflex negates. Attack action to maintain pin each following round, otherwise it's just a grapple. Pinned targets are immobilized and, at the dragon's option, may not speak.

Senses
Locate object
blindsense 60'
dark vision, low light vision
maxed out listen, search and spot. Some other skills.

Spellcasting
Caster level 5th (spell level 2)

EDIT:
Feats (7)

Dragons favor Alertness, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Flyby Attack, Hover, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Snatch, Weapon Focus (claw or bite), Wingover, and any metamagic feat that is available and useful to sorcerers.
There are 11 listed there, not including the metamagic (and the dragon's caster level is too low to make much use of those anyway). So there's about a 2/3 chance of having each of those, maybe less if the DM wants to mix in a couple other feats. Blind-Fight and Flyby Attack can really shut down some tactics, and the others are really handy too.
/EDIT

Comments
The party should be able to damage soak him in about 4-6 rounds. Off the top of my head, I don't know any good SoD's below level 6 that will work against the dragon. And if there is one it might take an average of 2-3 rounds (or more) to land one with his saves and SR. It seems likely that the dragon can take down a party member every 2 rounds. A prepped party can change things, whereas in-combat prep burns precious rounds. Likewise a prepped red dragon will use his sorc spells to buff himself ahead of time.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-15, 07:41 PM
Let's say we have a party of 4: 1 melee class, a1 skillmonkey class, 1 divine caster, 1 arcane caster. Core only. Each member is level 12 and are up against a CR 12 Red Dragon.
What builds/strategies would work effectively?

Level 12 Party :smallcool:

ericgrau
2008-08-15, 07:45 PM
Level 12 vs. CR 12 dragon?

That's not a challenge. That's a random encounter on the way to a challenge.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-15, 07:48 PM
As a random encounter then the party shouldn't be able to prepare for the encounter.

Jack_Simth
2008-08-15, 07:50 PM
Well now, you're making a few assumptions there. As laid out, the resources (for the party) are:
"1 melee class, a1 skillmonkey class, 1 divine caster, 1 arcane caster. Core only. Each member is level 12"
And the opposition is: "a CR 12 Red Dragon." (and you can get a CR 12 red dragon - add two levels of Sorcerer (or four levels of very nearly any other class) to a CR 10 Juvenile).

A Rogue-1/Wizard-5/Assasin-1/Arcane Trickster-5 is a level 12 skillmonkey... and casts as a Wizard-10 (fragile, though, but then, most skillmonkeys are).
A Fighter-1/Wizard-5/Eldritch Knight-6 is a level 10 melee class... and casts as a Wizard-10 (fragile, though).
Tack a Wizard-12 and a Druid-12 on, and you've got four characters that can spit out save-or-lose spells (be that Baelful Polymorph, Flesh to Stone, or something else).
Dragon's in trouble.

Alternate method (using the standard four):
Fill up the party with both Resist Energy (Fire, 30 points) and Protection From Energy (Fire, 120 points), and use ranged weapons and spells to fire away at the dragon from inside an Antilife shell.
Again, dragon's in trouble.

Mind you, almost any strategy vs. a Dragon has a flaw: It assumes the party meets the dragon on the party's terms, and it assumes that "retreat" on the party of the dragon = loss for the dragon. Fortunately, Red Dragons don't have Hide and Move Silently as class skills, so this is a somewhat likely scenario.

ericgrau
2008-08-15, 07:54 PM
I didn't mean that the DM actually plans this as a random encounter. By "random encounter" I was referring to how easy this seems even without preparation. With preparation, the challenge seems trivial.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-15, 08:11 PM
I disagree. It depends on how well someone knows the books, how well the dragon is played and how it is encountered by the party. Something as simple as the Sorcerer - 5 spellcasting can really change the dynamics of the encounter. In other words how hard would it be for a party to defeat if played intelligently by someone like Ericgrau or Frosty or Jack trying to win or survive the encounter with the adventurers instead of rolling over to let them have it's treasure?

Disguise Self can make it look like a different type of dragon if randomly encountered and visibly approaches the party.

Does it surprise the party on the first round because it is Invisible for a random encounter?

Yes Jack I am making an assumption it is a Young Adult Dragon Red Dragon because they were CR12 in the 3E MM page 67.

Frosty
2008-08-15, 08:41 PM
I disagree. It depends on how well someone knows the books, how well the dragon is played and how it is encountered by the party. Something as simple as the Sorcerer - 5 spellcasting can really change the dynamics of the encounter. In other words how hard would it be for a party to defeat if played intelligently by someone like Ericgrau or Frosty or Jack trying to win or survive the encounter with the adventurers instead of rolling over to let them have it's treasure?

Disguise Self can make it look like a different type of dragon if randomly encountered and visibly approaches the party.

Does it surprise the party on the first round because it is Invisible for a random encounter?

Yes Jack I am making an assumption it is a Young Adult Dragon Red Dragon because they were CR12 in the 3E MM page 67.

Whoa...I'm quoted as intelligent. When did this start happening? :smallredface:

In any case, if I wanted to be mean and kill off a party memoer of two, I'd give the Dragon Wraithstrike and Scintillating scales. Evil spells for dragons to have. Now their Natural Armor becomes a Deflection Bonus. And Wraithstrike allows for the Dragon to Power Attack all he wants because he's hitting touch AC.

If the dragon had 3rd level spellcasting I'd also have the dragon cast spells like Greater Resistance for a +3 to all saves at the beginning of the day (this buff lasts 24 hours), and of course also Greater Mage Armor for even more defenses.

Dragon spellcasting sucks like a Fighter5/Sorcerer5 sucks. Hence, Dragon spellcasting should focus on things that don't require saves (like Fog Cloud. Hey, Dragons have Blindsense and area breath attacks for a reason!) or self-buffs.

If I wanted my party members to hate me for the rest of the session, I'd have the dragon'sminions spread rumors about a White dragon terrorizing the country-side. The Dragon also uses Disguise Self to appear as a White Dragon. Then, when the PCs are all prepared and buffed up with Fire spells and anti-cold spells, the Red Dragon laughs at them.

Or better yet, PRETEND TO GET HURT BY THE SPELLS!

Jack_Simth
2008-08-15, 09:35 PM
Whoa...I'm quoted as intelligent. When did this start happening? :smallredface:

In any case, if I wanted to be mean and kill off a party memoer of two, I'd give the Dragon Wraithstrike and Scintillating scales. Evil spells for dragons to have. Now their Natural Armor becomes a Deflection Bonus. And Wraithstrike allows for the Dragon to Power Attack all he wants because he's hitting touch AC.

If the dragon had 3rd level spellcasting I'd also have the dragon cast spells like Greater Resistance for a +3 to all saves at the beginning of the day (this buff lasts 24 hours), and of course also Greater Mage Armor for even more defenses.

Yes, but it's not playing fair when the party is restricted to Core sources and you aren't.


Dragon spellcasting sucks like a Fighter5/Sorcerer5 sucks. Hence, Dragon spellcasting should focus on things that don't require saves (like Fog Cloud. Hey, Dragons have Blindsense and area breath attacks for a reason!) or self-buffs.

Catch being that they still take an action to cast, and are easily dispelled (the opposing caster level on the Dispel is 12; yours is maybe 3 or 5; you'll usually lose vs. regular old Dispel Magic, despite the +10 cap). Against a party of four, the action differential will kill you ... provided you have to stand your ground for it to be considered a "win".

All dragons have Spellcraft as a class skill for their racial hit dice - if you max it out, then you'll know every spell the party casts (A Juvenile Red Sorcerer-2, CR 12, has 18 hit dice, and so has a max class of 21 for skill ranks - with 14 Int before the elite array that comes free with class levels, that's a +24 modifier; any components on the spell, and the Dragon knows it, no roll required). As stealth isn't a particularly good option (Hide and Move Silently are not class skills for Red Dragons, Large size imposes a -4 penalty to Hide, and dragons don't get a racial dex bonus - mind you, with Cleric spells available, and the two levels of Sorcerer, the Dragon could have both Invisibility and Silence, which make it at least possible), other tactics are needed. Hit and run work fairly well - zap the party with a breath weapon from the air, flee if they buff, and out-wait them. Patience. The only problem is that this requires running away, a lot of time, and a party that doesn't do the Rope Trick Rest, or the Teleport Home rest (both of which are trivial at this point - an Extended Rope Trick from a 12th level caster grants 24 hours of rest - enough for even the Cleric who just refreshed spells - and a Wizard-12 can fairly readily prepare three copies of Teleport (one "go home", one "go back", and one "oops" - or just get a Helm or Boots of Teleportation, for the same effect).

Really, though, one CR 12 creature vs. four ECL 12 adventurers is begging for a creature death.


If I wanted my party members to hate me for the rest of the session, I'd have the dragon'sminions spread rumors about a White dragon terrorizing the country-side. The Dragon also uses Disguise Self to appear as a White Dragon. Then, when the PCs are all prepared and buffed up with Fire spells and anti-cold spells, the Red Dragon laughs at them.

Or better yet, PRETEND TO GET HURT BY THE SPELLS!

No, if I wanted the party to hate me for the rest of the session, the CR 12 dragon would be a Very Young Red - with 12 class levels (in a PC Full Caster other than the Sorcerer). See, nonassociated class levels count +1/2 CR until they meet the critters Hit Dice - and a Very Young Red is CR 5, with 10 hit dice. That "CR 12" critter has 10 Dragon hit dice, plus 12 levels in Wizard (or Cleric, or whatever). If I'm feeling particularly annoying, I advance the Very Young Red Dragon 2 hit dice, first (at +1/2 CR per HD), leaving me with a CR 6 dragon with 12 hit dice - again, I can fit 12 Wizard (or Cleric) levels on it without having more than CR 12 (according to official guidelines, anyway). 12 Dragon hit dice give +12 BAB, +12d12 hit dice, +8 to all saves, and a bucket of skill points (to go with the Dragon racial modifiers). The 12 Wizard (or Cleric) levels give even more BAB (although more slowly), Full Spellcasting, more saves (although more slowly, for most of them), more skills (although a lot less than those initial 12 dragon racial hit dice), and the Elite Array free of charge. Being a True Dragon, he also gets a lot of nifties.

This one uses Scry/Buff/Teleport (& Fry) tactics. The Dragon's Familiar (Improved Familiar - Quasit) becomes something of a force to be reckoned with itself - assuming the Dragon takes ranks in Use Magic Device, anyway, so that the Quasit can use wands (12 dragon hit dice = 15 class ranks in Use Magic Device - and a Wizardly Intelligence score means cross-class ranks to get the modifier up to the +19 needed to autosucceed with known wands isn't cost prohibitive). The familiar is primarily there for the actions - holds two wands (only using one at a time), and uses no-save spells (or effectively no-save spells) that seriously hamper the party's ability to target, while the Dragon uses offensive area-based spells.

Frosty
2008-08-15, 10:51 PM
I don't deal with that non-associated class crap. It's stupid and unfair. All classes are associated when I'm the DM. I award exp based on the actual difficulty of the encounter, not the official CR, which is bunk.

If my level 2 party defeats a Fleshraker intact, they automatically gain a level.

AstralFire
2008-08-15, 10:55 PM
I don't deal with that non-associated class crap. It's stupid and unfair. All classes are associated when I'm the DM. I award exp based on the actual difficulty of the encounter, not the official CR, which is bunk.

If my level 2 party defeats a Fleshraker intact, they automatically gain a level.

Agreed. But I ad hoc a lot.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-15, 11:02 PM
I don't deal with that non-associated class crap. It's stupid and unfair. All classes are associated when I'm the DM. I award exp based on the actual difficulty of the encounter, not the official CR, which is bunk.

If my level 2 party defeats a Fleshraker intact, they automatically gain a level.The real problem is, stuff can go from "overpowering" to "gimped" in the space of a level. Picture a Monstrous Crab. At level 3, it probably takes out 2 members of the party before they run. At level 6, it maybe still gets the Rogue or Wizard before going down, maybe dies before dealing any measurable damage. Toss up between "Cakewalk" and "25% of party dead." At 7, it gets crushed, and doesn't come back. And it's CR 3. The problem is scaling of SLAs/Saves/Alternate Attacks/Movement Modes. Theres no way to really guage whether or not a party can handle something without looking at the party, not just the monster. With a SoS-Focused Sorc, and a Fighter without a Ghost-Touch weapon, a party can be ganked by something incorporeal but not undead that's far lower CR than their ECL. Not because the CR system didn't work, but because the party hadn't bothered to get one specific form of attack.

Jack_Simth
2008-08-15, 11:20 PM
I don't deal with that non-associated class crap. It's stupid and unfair. All classes are associated when I'm the DM. I award exp based on the actual difficulty of the encounter, not the official CR, which is bunk.

If my level 2 party defeats a Fleshraker intact, they automatically gain a level.
Hence the "if I wanted the party to hate me" bit.

The flip side of that, of course, is that... it's really not all THAT much stronger than a pure Wizard-12 - due primarily due to the action limit. If you play the dragon, and full attack or use a breath weapon, you're not casting (barring Quickened spells, which are either much lower in level for the resources they require or require a hefty expenditure of wealth). If you play the Wizard, and zap away, you're not using your breath weapon or natural attacks. For the most part, the +2 HD, +12 Wizard levels Very Young Red Dragon is either a dragon with some nifty tricks and non-melee fallback options, or a Wizard with a lot more durability and decent melee fallback options. Other than the scry&fry tactics (which any Wizard can do - provided they haven't banned Conjuration). It's really only about +2 CR over the Monster Manual estimates - and when it comes down to it, well built and intelligently played dragons are around +2 CR over their official listing anyway.

Frosty
2008-08-15, 11:34 PM
To be honest, any dragon that knows Wraithstrike automatically gets a +1 CR from just that spell alone. It can kill a front-line tank in one full-attack if it gets a crit or two.

LordOkubo
2008-08-15, 11:51 PM
Doesn't work (at least, not in that manner), I'm afraid.

See, "Prepare to throw a splash weapon" is under the "Actions in Combat" table as a full-round action.

Now, you can use UMD on certain spells from wands to get a similar effect (Produce Flame and Flame Blade are effect spells, not touch spells), but with the Red Dragon being immune to fire, those two aren't going to work so hot (plus you'd mostly need to go into melee range for the Flame Blade to reach, but nothing actually stops you from dual-wielding Produce Flame, as it's an effect spell).

Chill Touch will work, but as an actual Touch spell, you can't dual-wield it (unless you can con your DM into letting you deliver the touches with both hands), and it requires you go into melee range (unless you do something like using two charges from a wand of Spectral hand first - another Effect spell).

I'm sorry, it's cute for you to pretend that's a real objection but it isn't.

"Prepare to throw a splash weapon" does not exist anywhere in the rules for throwing splash weapons, nor does it show up in the rules for throwing weapons, nor does it show up anywhere in the items entry.

So you know what, it takes a full round action to "prepare to throw a splash weapon" and that's great, but I wake up every morning and "prepare to throw a splash weapon" and am then prepared whenever the situation requires all day.

Seriously, there are no rules for "preparing to throw a splash weapon" anywhere. So if that's your objection, then I laugh.

Starbuck_II
2008-08-15, 11:55 PM
Let's say we have a party of 4: 1 melee class, a1 skillmonkey class, 1 divine caster, 1 arcane caster. Core only. Each member is level 12 and are up against a CR 12 Red Dragon.
What builds/strategies would work effectively?

Suicide run?
Step 1: First, buy lots of Dust of sneezing and Coughing.
Step 2: Ask Melee to run at Dragon then open dust (throw it in air, whatever)
Step 3: Dragon maskes a choice:
a. Choose to fail his save and be stunned for many, many rounds.
b. Take save and more likely succeed. As soon as he save, he take Con damage and be severly less life (Con matter alot for Dragons' health).
Step 4: Dragon is wounded or stunned.
Step 5: Gank weakened dragon or stunned Dragon.
Step 6: Revive Melee????
Step 7: Loot Dragon Horde!

I can guarantee this plan will be very succeesful. You might have a death (just the suicide runnner though).

arguskos
2008-08-15, 11:56 PM
Seriously, there are no rules for "preparing to throw a splash weapon" anywhere.
I would like to direct you towards the table on page 141 of the 3.5 PHB. Under Full-Round Action is this line:
Prepare to throw splash weapon

Just thought I'd point that one out.

-argus

LordOkubo
2008-08-16, 12:34 AM
I would like to direct you towards the table on page 141 of the 3.5 PHB. Under Full-Round Action is this line:
Prepare to throw splash weapon

Just thought I'd point that one out.

-argus

I was addressing that. That's my point. It says that to prepare to throw a splash weapon is a full round action, it doesn't say the round before, or for each weapon or only for throwing it as a splash weapon (you can also aim it at a person). There is no way to tell what that is supposed to mean, so given "rules" that don't actually mean anything, I'm not going to try to follow them, since I would not even know what to follow.

I could choose to say that because I am not prepared I take a -2 penalty and that would have just as much backing as anything you could claim.

Jack_Simth
2008-08-16, 12:59 AM
I was addressing that. That's my point. It says that to prepare to throw a splash weapon is a full round action, it doesn't say the round before, or for each weapon or only for throwing it as a splash weapon (you can also aim it at a person). There is no way to tell what that is supposed to mean, so given "rules" that don't actually mean anything, I'm not going to try to follow them, since I would not even know what to follow.

I could choose to say that because I am not prepared I take a -2 penalty and that would have just as much backing as anything you could claim.
So I can fire an unloaded crossbow, then?

After all, there's no way to tell what the "unloaded" condition is supposed to mean, so given "rules" that don't actually mean anything, I'm not going to try to follow them, since I would not even know what to follow.

I could choose to say that because it's not loaded I take a -2 penalty and that would have just as much backing as anything you could claim.

Or to put it a slightly less annoying way, why yes - the rules are incomplete. By their nature, they can't be complete. You have to load a crossbow before firing it - obviously - just as much as you have to prepare to throw a splash weapon before you throw it.

LordOkubo
2008-08-16, 01:38 AM
So I can fire an unloaded crossbow, then?

After all, there's no way to tell what the "unloaded" condition is supposed to mean, so given "rules" that don't actually mean anything, I'm not going to try to follow them, since I would not even know what to follow.

I could choose to say that because it's not loaded I take a -2 penalty and that would have just as much backing as anything you could claim.

Or to put it a slightly less annoying way, why yes - the rules are incomplete. By their nature, they can't be complete. You have to load a crossbow before firing it - obviously - just as much as you have to prepare to throw a splash weapon before you throw it.

That's great. And since I can load a crossbow an hour before I shoot it, I suppose I can prepare to throw an hour before hand. And since repeating crossbows can fire more then once a round without reloading, a repeating thrower (IE anyone with quick draw) can throw more.

But you know what, here's the bottom line:
There are rules for loading a crossbow in five different places in the PHB, there are no rules for preparing to throw a splash weapon, or what it means anywhere in the PHB except in one table, that says it is a full round action.

So as I've said. I wake up, I prepare to throw a splash weapon, then I prepare to throw another one, I do this until I am prepared to throw 400. Now I don't ever waste any actions in combat.

ericgrau
2008-08-16, 01:56 AM
CASTLEMIKE:
Well, if the dragon is played optimally, we most optimize the dragon first to figureo out what we'll be up against. But if both the PCs and dragon play well, and it's level 12 PCs vs. CR 12 dragon, it seems like it should still be easy. If the dragon focuses on one PC he might get a single kill, but that PC is likely to run away after a couple rounds of pain and/or the party cleric would blow a strong heal on him. True, that'll delay the cleric for a round and slow the dragon's demise, but then the PCs won't lose anybody.

Either way, I did post both the dragon and PC stats above. You'll have to adjust a little to get CR 12, but it should apply roughly.

arguskos
2008-08-16, 03:39 AM
I was addressing that. That's my point. It says that to prepare to throw a splash weapon is a full round action, it doesn't say the round before, or for each weapon or only for throwing it as a splash weapon (you can also aim it at a person).
So, that block of rules about using splash weapons on pg. 158 means... what? :smallwink:

If you are claiming that, without in-depth complex arcane rules about preparation timing, the printed rules don't mean squat and that you can't apply a little logical analysis to the RAI, then nothing I or anyone else can say will change your mind. Not trying to be unkind here, but I'm baffled by your train of logic here. What is it you wish to prove with this, that 3.5's ruleset isn't complete? Well, duh. No ruleset is, and any that claim otherwise are lying barefaced.


There is no way to tell what that is supposed to mean, so given "rules" that don't actually mean anything, I'm not going to try to follow them, since I would not even know what to follow.
I just think that the rules are incomplete due to the designers assuming we'd use some logic when we read it, and figure out that it won't stay "prepared" for very long (since that might involve lighting a fuse or some such) or something like that. They are only human, they didn't want to write a paragraph about preparing splash weapons and how long they stay prepared, and all this other silliness. They just wanted to tell you how long it took to do in combat, and they assumed you'd use some logic about everything that isn't relevant.

Iunno, just seems like a silly thing to get up in arms about to me. *shrug*

-argus

LordOkubo
2008-08-16, 09:53 AM
So, that block of rules about using splash weapons on pg. 158 means... what?

That block of rules about using splash weapons on pg 158 never says anything about preparing to throw a splash weapon at all. It doesn't talk about duration, it doesn't talk about what that does. It doesn't even mention it.


I just think that the rules are incomplete due to the designers assuming we'd use some logic when we read it, and figure out that it won't stay "prepared" for very long (since that might involve lighting a fuse or some such) or something like that. They are only human, they didn't want to write a paragraph about preparing splash weapons and how long they stay prepared, and all this other silliness. They just wanted to tell you how long it took to do in combat, and they assumed you'd use some logic about everything that isn't relevant.

So now Acid flasks, those little things that break on hit are actually grenades with fuses?

See here's the problem with this, they wrote four paragraphs about loading a crossbow, something that you could expect someone to know in advance what it does. They wrote exactly zero paragraphs about "preparing a splash weapon" despite the fact that it is something that no one would ever be able to figure out without a written explanation.

Jimp
2008-08-16, 10:13 AM
Let's say the dragon is played as an intelligent being. It will try and gain the upper hand over the PCs if it can, but not blow all its resources if it can. Let's also say that for whatever reason this dragon has a code of honour where if he is being defeated he continues the fight to his last breathe, rather than just teleporting away.

Jack_Simth
2008-08-16, 10:49 AM
That's great. And since I can load a crossbow an hour before I shoot it, I suppose I can prepare to throw an hour before hand. And since repeating crossbows can fire more then once a round without reloading, a repeating thrower (IE anyone with quick draw) can throw more.

But you know what, here's the bottom line:
There are rules for loading a crossbow in five different places in the PHB, there are no rules for preparing to throw a splash weapon, or what it means anywhere in the PHB except in one table, that says it is a full round action.

So as I've said. I wake up, I prepare to throw a splash weapon, then I prepare to throw another one, I do this until I am prepared to throw 400. Now I don't ever waste any actions in combat.
The difference is merely a matter of degree. The rules also don't say anything about limiting a non-repeating crossbow to one loaded quarrel at a time. The rules also don't say anything about being inconvenienced by having the "dead" condition.

Preparing to throw absurd numbers of them at the same time, hours in advance, or not bothering to prepare them at all, is the exact same type of thing to a different degree. It's a silly exploitation of the incompleteness in a ruleset that cannot be fully complete.


Let's say the dragon is played as an intelligent being. It will try and gain the upper hand over the PCs if it can, but not blow all its resources if it can. Let's also say that for whatever reason this dragon has a code of honour where if he is being defeated he continues the fight to his last breathe, rather than just teleporting away.
Then this dragon is pretty much dead in this situation without some kind of exploit (like class levels equal to or in excess of his CR). He cannot do hit-and-run wear-down tactics. His racial makeup (red dragon) doesn't give him stealthy skills. Two of his opponents (at least) are capable of spitting out two+ save or lose spells each, and his saves are only looking at 50-75% success - he's likely to lose one. Plus he's got two damage-dealers to worry about (rogue and fighter) who (at this level) should have methods by which to fly themselves - potentially faster than the dragon can, if the Wizard is fond of Phantom Steed.

LordOkubo
2008-08-16, 11:00 AM
The difference is merely a matter of degree. The rules also don't say anything about limiting a non-repeating crossbow to one loaded quarrel at a time. The rules also don't say anything about being inconvenienced by having the "dead" condition.

Preparing to throw absurd numbers of them at the same time, hours in advance, or not bothering to prepare them at all, is the exact same type of thing to a different degree. It's a silly exploitation of the incompleteness in a ruleset that cannot be fully complete.

No it's not. It's a recognition that an accidental table entry that's a carry over from 3.0, that did have rules for preparing splash weapons has absolutely no bearing on the game.

The ruleset could very easily be completed, all it would need is the following entry for the rules of throwing splash weapons on page 158: "Splash weapons must be prepared before throwing, this is a full round action."

Instead, the deleted that section, but forgot to remove a single entry from a table several pages away from the actual rules for splash weapons. Get over it.

Jack_Simth
2008-08-16, 11:08 AM
No it's not. It's a recognition that an accidental table entry that's a carry over from 3.0, that did have rules for preparing splash weapons has absolutely no bearing on the game.

The ruleset could very easily be completed, all it would need is the following entry for the rules of throwing splash weapons on page 158: "Splash weapons must be prepared before throwing, this is a full round action."

Instead, the deleted that section, but forgot to remove a single entry from a table several pages away from the actual rules for splash weapons. Get over it.No - the rules for that single aspect could be completed in such a manner. The ruleset itself could not.

Besides - permitting a rogue to dual-wield full attack thrown splash weapons makes the rogue pretty much the single-best combat class in the game in the level range of about 1 to 6. Add to that the skillmonkey role, and it makes for an overpowered rogue.

LordOkubo
2008-08-16, 11:29 AM
Besides - permitting a rogue to dual-wield full attack thrown splash weapons makes the rogue pretty much the single-best combat class in the game in the level range of about 1 to 6. Add to that the skillmonkey role, and it makes for an overpowered rogue.

1) No it doesn't.
2) Overpowered Rogues? That's cute.
3) If only there where some kind of limitations on what Sneak attack applied to, like not affecting certain creatures, or requiring people to lose their dex bonus. Then they might not be ideal...Oh wait.

ericgrau
2008-08-16, 11:32 AM
Could someone please specifiy which core "save-or-lose" spells you would use?

EDIT, on the rogue: You may have noticed in the stats I listed above that the rogue does less damage per round than the fighter, even with sneak attack. That mid BAB and lack of rage/feat AB sure is a pain. Combine that with the rogue's horrible defense and you'll see that, at least in this battle, he's a secondary combatant.

ericgrau
2008-08-16, 12:11 PM
(oops..., double post)

LordOkubo
2008-08-16, 12:19 PM
Even though I never specified it as my strategy I'll jump in.

As a level 12 Cleric, Core only, you are mostly limited to touch spells and domain spells, so unless you took a 1 level dip in Heirophant (quite possible) you have to close to touch range to hit with Poison/Slay Living/Harm. Which is why the Cleric should be the one casting Resist Enery and Dispel Magic instead of the Wizard.

And of the most Common Core domains, (Trickery/Luck/Travel) only Confusion at 4th level is really viable.

As a Wizard, your choices are more open, Feeblemind and Hold Monster are good for starters, Baleful Polymorph and Flesh to Stone back when we thought it had a weaker fort save.

Druids have their own touch, including Control Winds and Baleful Polymorph.

That's about it for save and lose, but both Clerics and Wizards have more then a few ways to juggle the Dragon when not actively casting such spells.

LordOkubo
2008-08-16, 12:21 PM
EDIT, on the rogue: You may have noticed in the stats I listed above that the rogue does less damage per round than the fighter, even with sneak attack. That mid BAB and lack of rage/feat AB sure is a pain. Combine that with the rogue's horrible defense and you'll see that, at least in this battle, he's a secondary combatant.

I think the point is that we are arguing about my Rogue not yours, the one who has 6 attacks that all hit on a 2 from 30ft away.

Jack_Simth
2008-08-16, 01:44 PM
1) No it doesn't.

Dual-wielding splash weapons at first level means that all the rogue needs to do is win initiative, and there's around a 80% chance of the target taking 4d6 damage - which will KO basically anything at that level. It scales up rather quickly (as sneak attack increases, and attacks increase, and the chance of hitting with an attack increase).

Also - a flat contradiction with no support? Not really an argument.


2) Overpowered Rogues? That's cute.

Ah, resorting to simply making fun of a position. Not really an argument.


3) If only there where some kind of limitations on what Sneak attack applied to, like not affecting certain creatures, or requiring people to lose their dex bonus. Then they might not be ideal...Oh wait.
You have no idea just how easy it is to make someone lose their dex to AC, or for a Skillmonkey to make sure to go first, do you?

Sure, it doesn't work so hot against constructs, undead, and plant creatures - but then the DM is in the position of "he either slaughters everything, or can't do anything of use" which isn't really somewhere a DM wants to be. Part of the reason why so many people dislike the option of stealing the Wizard's spellbook as a balancing factor.


Could someone please specifiy which core "save-or-lose" spells you would use?

For the Cleric, there's Symbol of Fear (summon something to trigger it, if you need to use it offensively), Blindness/Deafness, Bestow Curse, and (Greater) Command. For the Wizard, it's easy (there's a fair number of them). For the Druid, Baleful Polymorph is a favorite.

LordOkubo
2008-08-16, 02:15 PM
Dual-wielding splash weapons at first level means that all the rogue needs to do is win initiative, and there's around a 80% chance of the target taking 4d6 damage - which will KO basically anything at that level. It scales up rather quickly (as sneak attack increases, and attacks increase, and the chance of hitting with an attack increase).

Also - a flat contradiction with no support? Not really an argument.

And being a level 1 Fighter means you have a 100% chance of killing anything you attack, so what?

And yes it does scale up quickly. So does HP, and before you get your 4th attack, everything is surviving three, also you can get 3 attacks at level 1.


Ah, resorting to simply making fun of a position. Not really an argument.

Ah, you want me to spell it out for you that Wizard's can take out 5 enemies at once at level 1 with the same chance of success, or Fighters can kill things all day every day at that level. And no one cares. And Wizards can actually do stuff later, crazy huh.


You have no idea just how easy it is to make someone lose their dex to AC, or for a Skillmonkey to make sure to go first, do you?

I know exactly just how easy it is. It is also a limit.


Sure, it doesn't work so hot against constructs, undead, and plant creatures - but then the DM is in the position of "he either slaughters everything, or can't do anything of use" which isn't really somewhere a DM wants to be. Part of the reason why so many people dislike the option of stealing the Wizard's spellbook as a balancing factor.

I don't think it's the best situation either, but that's still how it works. And that's how it's always been with even a minimally optimized Rogue in Core.

Non-Core Fighters do approximately the same damage, and Rogues get to Sneak attack more things.

ericgrau
2008-08-16, 05:31 PM
I think the point is that we are arguing about my Rogue not yours, the one who has 6 attacks that all hit on a 2 from 30ft away.

True for rogues in general, though, and you need the precision to target a creature's vitals to use sneak attack. I'd say even if you hit a giant creature square between the eyes or right over the heart with a splash of acid, you wouldn't actually do anything special. Unlike stabbing them in the heart/brain/hamstring/etc or even konking them over the head with bludgeoning, etc. An acid orb or ray of acid that hits and bores deeper (maybe just to a critical muscle on the surface, if we wanna make it really easy) might be plausible, but a flask that randomly splashes acid all over a creature is really pushing it. Or maybe most DM's won't give it much thought or they'll rule that most anything will SA. W/e. Pick up your greater invis and go to town then.

How'd you get 6 attacks in core anyway? I have a way, but it makes your AB ridiculously low, and secondary attacks are at an extra -5. You sure you auto-hit even against AC 8 on all 6? And how do you get close enough to the dragon and manage enough defense to not get dropped in 1 round? Bear in mind he has blindsense; even assuming no see invisibility or glitterdust (any caster worth his salt with only low level spells should have glitterdust and grease..,), he can still target your precise square and simply has a 50% miss chance. Don't forget the range penalties to AB; or else the dragon gets earlier full-attackage.

Most of the save or lose spells mentioned seems pretty effective. Though note that somes spells like hold monster have limitations. That one, for example, allows a save every round IIRC. Otherwise they seem to work if you can land one. That's part of the strat right there then... landing it and/or getting around the limitations. Plus saves and SR. It may take a couple rounds or so to land one, and you gotta have a way for the party, especially the casters, to survive in the meantime. I'm not saying this isn't a good strat, it seems like one of the best options even, I'm just saying it's time to churn out the details.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-16, 05:46 PM
Let's say the dragon is played as an intelligent being. It will try and gain the upper hand over the PCs if it can, but not blow all its resources if it can. Let's also say that for whatever reason this dragon has a code of honour where if he is being defeated he continues the fight to his last breathe, rather than just teleporting away.


OP it's your dragon and your campaign so how about a little more information regarding the dragon.

Determine the dragon and it's treasure. It is a CR13 Young Adult Red Dragon right?

Is this a random encounter or a dragon with a lair?

Is this a Suggested Wealth by Level campaign or is it a little looser or tighter?

NPC gear value is 35,000 GP for a Level 13 NPC and 45,000GP for a Level 14 NPC.

After that value is determined a general hoard can be described.

IMO it should have useful items like: Amulet +1, Ring +1, +2 Headband of Intellect (Some will be better than the most basic items), Maybe a Heward's Handy Haversack full of coin for that starter hoard if he has to run away.

To me that means that the dragon should have 5,000 GP of disposable resources (Not 200 first level scrolls or a 100 first level potions probably a mix of first to third level magic items including a wand or two) for his encounter on top of the basic 35,000 GP (If the PCs perform extremely well dropping it in the first round or two they get extra treasure). Usually it is better to spread some of that wealth around for a synergy.

Barring hit and run tactics to deplete party resources (can be a viable strategy depending on how those resources are handled in your campaign (Doesn't work very well with Magical Walmart one stop shopping)) or really strange optimization probably the best you can hope for the CR13 Young Adult Red Dragon is to survive the encounter and fight another day.

Leadership feat is nice for a tribe of Kobolds or agents in nearby thorps, hamlets and villages like Adepts with Raven familiars. Giving the Dragon a single level of Wizard for a Hawk or Raven familiar of his own as a lookout (Empathy to one mile).

I prefer an interesting, challenging and memorable encounter or encounters with the dragon that lasts more than 3 rounds as a Player or DM/GM not a Total Party Kill but that is a personal bias. A party member dying is okay because they have the resources to Raise him or her via the Cleric or other Clerics back in civilization.

Spell choices determine tactics. Casting Mage Armor and Shield as buffs probably a pretty good ideal.

How do the spells Invisibility and Mirror Images interact in your campaign?

If your dragon casts Rope Trick and pulls the Rope up can he end the spell at will and fall on the adventurers perhaps in a tight passage way for his size?

LordOkubo
2008-08-16, 07:10 PM
True for rogues in general, though, and you need the precision to target a creature's vitals to use sneak attack. I'd say even if you hit a giant creature square between the eyes or right over the heart with a splash of acid, you wouldn't actually do anything special. Unlike stabbing them in the heart/brain/hamstring/etc or even konking them over the head with bludgeoning, etc. An acid orb or ray of acid that hits and bores deeper (maybe just to a critical muscle on the surface, if we wanna make it really easy) might be plausible, but a flask that randomly splashes acid all over a creature is really pushing it. Or maybe most DM's won't give it much thought or they'll rule that most anything will SA. W/e. Pick up your greater invis and go to town then.

So now you think Sneak Attack doesn't apply according to the rules, and only how you can conceptualize it? See most DMs I have accept that anything in which the rules allow to be SAed with can be Sneak attacked with. And the rules do allow it.


How'd you get 6 attacks in core anyway? I have a way, but it makes your AB ridiculously low, and secondary attacks are at an extra -5. You sure you auto-hit even against AC 8 on all 6? And how do you get close enough to the dragon and manage enough defense to not get dropped in 1 round? Bear in mind he has blindsense; even assuming no see invisibility or glitterdust (any caster worth his salt with only low level spells should have glitterdust and grease..,), he can still target your precise square and simply has a 50% miss chance. Don't forget the range penalties to AB; or else the dragon gets earlier full-attackage.

I'm using Blinking instead of Invisibility, and He can have fun trying to full attack me before I get my ranged full attack if he wants.

The attack routine is, assuming no Divine Power, and 26 Dex, (18 Base +2 Racial +2 Level +4 Item)

+2 from Haste, +2 from attacking as invisible, +1 Size +1 Halfling racial bonus +8 Dex -2 Rapid Shot -2 TWFing +BAB.

Even without any BAB at all that's a +10 to attack. BAB is +9/+9/+9/+9/+4/+4

so yes, I think +19/+19/+19/+19/+14/+14 is going to hit all six times against AC 6, even after the possible -4 from range (since there is no reason to attack from outside 30ft in core.)

Falrin
2008-08-16, 09:48 PM
Is it me or should we all read up on 'How to play Dragons?'-threads again?

Rules for Dragons:

1 Get out and fight on your own terms. All dragons should have a decent warning, anti teleporting & bailing system ready.

2 Use your spells.
Invisibility, Wraithstrike, True Strike, ...
Even a simple Mage Armour & Shield go a long way

Scrolls & Potions can provide most of the situational ones.

3 Your save, Wait for their Buffs to end, Buff yourself, Take the caster now.
Just fly in invisible, grapple the caster and fly away. Depending on size &

If I might be so free to use a Mature (Huge) White Dragon, get Snatch and ready your breath weapon to blast when they cast. Flyby will fit there too.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-16, 09:54 PM
The real question is, standard feats(boop) and spells(nearly as bad), or evil ones?

ericgrau
2008-08-17, 02:29 AM
LordOkubo:
Per the rules you can't use SA when you can't use precision against the vitals. There are a few examples given in the PHB if you wanna get a better idea (both from denying the use of precision and being unable to reach the vitals).

Mage must spend a round to blink you, except that's a self-only spell. And a ring of blinking breaks the max 1/4 WBL rule for any single item. So you're stuck with greater invis. Not that it matters. Either way the dragon can still sense you and attack you and you gotta figure out the rogue's defense as well as his offense.

Per the monster description, one of the dragon's favored feat choices is blind-fight: reroll miss chance and attacker gets no special advantages! No +2, not denied dex to AC, no sneak attack! The other workaround is the rogue's 30' range vs. flyby attack (another favored feat).

I'm editing my previous post to include the dragon's favored feats.

I just took a 2nd look at the SoD's mentioned:
Using symbol of fear offensively is iffy, kinda like dispelling your own explosive runes. Depends on the DM. It also allows a fort save. But you may often get away with it. Blindness/deafness merely gives the dragon a 50% miss chance, thanks to his blindsense. Bestow curse and feeblemind are likewise nerfs not SoLs. Command is greatly limited, might just disable him for a round. Baleful polymorph works and flesh to stone work, but the dragon has a +16 fort save, so basically his chance of failure is equal to your caster stat mod plus feats (if any) out of 20. That's around 1/3 or so; with that and his 26 SR we're probably looking at an average of 4-6 rounds to land the SoD, if you don't run out of spell slots. And sorry for not noticing it in my previous post, but all dragons are immune to hold monster b/c it's a paralysis effect.

So basically whether you damage soak him or SoL him, you probably need to survive 4-6 rounds. Maybe less if you can get dual caster wizard/cleric SoL, or some other strat somebody might post. Given how hard it is to have a short combat via the standard methods, I'd think that anything that takes down the dragon in 1-2 rounds is likely to be cheese (but maybe not). So I'd suggest including defense in any strat, not just offense.

LordOkubo
2008-08-17, 11:17 AM
LordOkubo:
Per the rules you can't use SA when you can't use precision against the vitals. There are a few examples given in the PHB if you wanna get a better idea (both from denying the use of precision and being unable to reach the vitals).

1) I am well aware of that, but since you can still hit someone with precision damage with an Acid flask, that doesn't matter.


Mage must spend a round to blink you, except that's a self-only spell. And a ring of blinking breaks the max 1/4 WBL rule for any single item. So you're stuck with greater invis. Not that it matters. Either way the dragon can still sense you and attack you and you gotta figure out the rogue's defense as well as his offense.

1) My intelligent ring of blinking does it for me, and there is no 1/4 WBL rule, so I don't care.


Per the monster description, one of the dragon's favored feat choices is blind-fight: reroll miss chance and attacker gets no special advantages! No +2, not denied dex to AC, no sneak attack! The other workaround is the rogue's 30' range vs. flyby attack (another favored feat).

Try to read the feat description: "An invisible attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you in melee."

"The invisible attacker’s bonuses do still apply for ranged attacks, however."

As I said, I still don't need to worry about defense much because the Dragon is not going to be able to full attack me until after I full attack it.

Rogue, Crap a Dragon!
Cleric/Druid: Casts Protection from Energy or Control Winds
Wizard: Casts Haste
Fighter: Full attacks with bow.
Rogue: waits.

Dragon gets within range, can't fly. Uses breath weapon, minimal/no damage
Cleric/Druid: dispels.
Fighter: continues Full attacking with bow as before.
Rogue: waits? Full attacks?
Wizard: hit it with damage or debuff, Feeblemind for example.

Dragon charges rogue standing out in front.
1 attack, 20% miss chance.
Rogue: Full attacks with flasks, provoking 1 AoO.

If you can show me that 2 attacks has any chance of killing a Rogue, I'll bother to tell you his AC.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-17, 02:52 PM
Control Winds is thrown around a lot in this thread probably because A windstorm (51+ mph) drives most flying creatures from the skies, uproots small trees, knocks down light wooden structures, tears off roofs, and endangers ships. but Fortitude negates it so what am I missing since a Young Adult Red Dragon has a base +16 Fortitude save seems like a wasted action casting a spell that will probably be ineffective since a DM/GM can rule a Dragon isn't most flying creatures?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWinds.htm

LordOkubo
2008-08-17, 03:28 PM
Off hand, I'd say because we are used to using Earthbind for this purpose and are having to improvise.

I guess we need to use walls of stone or stand with backs to cliffs to prevent flyby attacks.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-17, 03:44 PM
Thanks thought I'd overlooked something.