Member of the Order with an important past?

[Deepkicker]

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but it caught my attention when I recently reread On the Origin of Pcs.

In the Introduction Rich wrote for that book he talks about the reasons he decided not to reveal certain things about the characters' pasts. For Belkar, it was simply a case of not wanting to lessen his character, but he goes on to say something like "one character's history will be intergral to the OotS storyline", so he chose a different scene from that character's past to outline in the book.

Which member of the Order do you think it is?

When I read it I immediately thought Vaarsuvius. Other than Belkar, we probably know the least about V. Also, V's segment in the book is only set four days prior to the beginning of the story. Out of the five (I'm excluding Belkar) the prequel gives us the least back-story for V, which gives me the feeling that the Giant purposely only showed us how (s)he came to join the team because (s)he has the aforementioned "intergral" past.

But when I thought about more I also considered Haley, mainly because of the several mysterious references we've had to her past (Kyran and Rachel was it?) Also, in one of her cryptograms she says something along the lines of "Elan, I'm not exactly what you'd call...", which is practically screaming mysterious past.
Thoughts?

EDIT: Added spoiler tag. Sorry.

[SensFan]

Your post should be written like this

[Teatime]

My money's also on Vaarsuvius. Certain commentaries in No Cure for the Paladin Blues also support this, by stating that V's mate will play a very important role in the story at some point.

[Chronos]

Isn't Elan the obvious choice, here? I mean, his brother is one of the major antagonists of the strip, and there's still a lot of speculation about who their parents are. I mean, sure, there are holes in Haley's past, but we don't even know Elan's last name (officially, at least: A lot of people have guesses).

[Kaytara]

Seconded. Haley may have her share of secrets from her sneaky life as a thief, but the fact remains that she is still rather young, and to this point probably hasn't done much other than grow up in Greysky City, work with the Thieves since she was 17 and adventure with the Order.

Everything, and that is EVERYTHING, about Elan has been played for comic relief so far. It's unlikely that his parents will play any important role. (And it's not outside the realm of possibility that Nale has killed their father....) In any case, even if they did, Elan's own life has supposedly been very simple, growing up, becoming a squire, joining the Order. He's even younger than Haley, if I recall correctly. But more to the point, whatever importance his parents have doesn't really qualify as HIS past.

Vaarsuvius, on the other hand, is not only an adult elf who's had much more time to engage in anything important, he also seems to have lied about his age with no clear motivation, which suggests that he has something to hide. And yeah, as you said, for such a prominent member we know next to nothing about V. We know V grew up and studied and was kicked out into the world, but those few decades between being kicked out and joining the Order are a complete blank to us. It's safe to say V is most likely the one with the plot-critical past.

[Penquin47]

What about Roy?

More specifically, Eric. Sure, everything in the book is awesome too, but the scenes at Fighter College could have been cut to make room for Eric.

Haley, V, Durkon, and Roy's flashbacks all answer the question "How did this character decide to become an adventurer?"
Elan's seems to indicate that he'd been an adventurer for most if not all of his adult life.
Belkar's only shows us how he came to be in the town to meet up with the rest of the future OotSers. That may have been his first adventure or he may be another Elan, but the question is left needing an answer.

[Kaytara]

The purpose of Origins isn't just explaining how the Order got together, since that one's easy: they met at a tavern. Roy was looking for allies to defeat Xykon and they were interested. Origins' purpose is also providing background on the characters. The phrase used by Rich in the intro is 'detailed origins that explain everything about them, while others simply have scenes that predate their appearance on Roy's team by a few days'.
The storytelling explanation he gives for the latter is that some characters are ruined by too much background that explains their tendencies. He names Belkar as an example - if we got a Freudian Excuse for Belkar's behaviour, his antics would seem more sad than funny. The other reason he names is that, as mentioned, in the case of at least one character, their background will be critical to the plot, so he chose another scene from that character's life.

Vaarsuvius and Belkar are the only members whose backstory scenes take place days before the comic, rather than weeks (Elan), months (Haley) or years (Durkon and Roy). Also, in the case of those four, the backstories do indeed explain more or less 'everything about them'.
Belkar's backstory will probably never be revealed, as that will take away the funny. Thus, Vaarsuvius remains the only true enigma of the party, therefore it's his past that is most likely to be critical for the plot.

I wouldn't bet against Eric being important somehow, but Roy's history already plays such a huge role in the comic that it would be redundant.

[DBear]

I think Elan's dad is Lord Tyranar and is holding Haley's dad hostage. C'mon, rule of drama!

[Ramien]

It could very easily have been Roy. After all, there was a rather large amount of explanation from Eugene that was cut out of Origins that were later revealed in SoD. V's past was pretty quickly summed up in the Iron Mage voice-over (Save for the wedding). Although I do wonder if that's V we see in the second panel of page 21 of SoD... the black and white makes it hard to tell.

[Red XIV]

I think Elan's dad is Lord Tyranar and is holding Haley's dad hostage. C'mon, rule of drama!
That's a B-plot at most, though. I'm pretty sure Rich was referring to a character's as-yet-unverealed backstory being important to the main plot, not merely to one of the sub-plots.

[David Argall]

Origin and plot
The phrase used by Rich in the intro is 'detailed origins that explain everything about them, while others simply have scenes that predate their appearance on Roy's team by a few days'.
The storytelling explanation ... The other reason he names is that, as mentioned, in the case of at least one character, their background will be critical to the plot, so he chose another scene from that character's life.

Vaarsuvius and Belkar are the only members whose backstory scenes take place days before the comic, rather than weeks (Elan), months (Haley) or years (Durkon and Roy).
While V's backstory covers only a few days, it also contains references to a number of details in his previous life. She was trained by a leading elven mage and led a very ivory tower existance until recently.



Also, in the case of those four, the backstories do indeed explain more or less 'everything about them'.

Not really. The purpose of a backstory is to make us understand why X acts this way instead of that. For that purpose, Elan's backstory is useless. It is merely typical Elan behavior.

But you are going about this backwards. The claim is that showing much of one PC's backstory will interfer with the plot. On known evidence/suspicions, there is no sign of a V-centered future plot part. Instead we have the two remaining gates. One is in dwarven lands, and one is on the Western Continent, which is where Haley's father is, and where we suspect Elan/Nale's pop is too. Now it is hard to see how Durkon's past could be interfering with the future here. Indeed, we would say much of it is foreshadowing.
But look at Elan. If we assume the twins were brats of Lord Tyrinar, an assumption many make, there are many possible secrets, secrets that would 'spoil the surprise', that a proper backstory would reveal. So here we have a character who should not have a proper backstory because it would interfere with the plot.

[werik]

I don't see Roy as being the one to have only had a different scene shown from their past, since Roy had many different scenes of his past shown in OOPCs. I can see the argument for Elan, if we're going along the lines of DBears assertion:

I think Elan's dad is Lord Tyranar and is holding Haley's dad hostage. C'mon, rule of drama!
However, since Elan doesn't really appear to have met this character as an adult, it's not the most probable answer. The Haley prediction also makes sense, but I feel we got some pretty meaty information about her past out of OOPCs. I agree that Vaarsuvius seems like the most likely answer to this question. We've only seen a small portion of his/her life and I had never even noticed Ramien's observation before when reading SOD.

Although I do wonder if that's V we see in the second panel of page 21 of SoD... the black and white makes it hard to tell.
This leads me to believe even more that it's Vaarsuvius.
If he was living in Cliffport at the same time as the scene in SOD, it's possible (s)he knew Eugene. Since V has yet to see Eugene in the online strip, the possibility is open on that. The only other character I could see having the extra scene is Durkon since there is a blank space of what happened to him between his first encounter with humans and his meeting with Roy.

[Kaytara]

Origin and plot
While V's backstory covers only a few days, it also contains references to a number of details in his previous life. She was trained by a leading elven mage and led a very ivory tower existance until recently.


Not really. The purpose of a backstory is to make us understand why X acts this way instead of that. For that purpose, Elan's backstory is useless. It is merely typical Elan behavior.

But you are going about this backwards. The claim is that showing much of one PC's backstory will interfer with the plot. On known evidence/suspicions, there is no sign of a V-centered future plot part. Instead we have the two remaining gates. One is in dwarven lands, and one is on the Western Continent, which is where Haley's father is, and where we suspect Elan/Nale's pop is too. Now it is hard to see how Durkon's past could be interfering with the future here. Indeed, we would say much of it is foreshadowing.
But look at Elan. If we assume the twins were brats of Lord Tyrinar, an assumption many make, there are many possible secrets, secrets that would 'spoil the surprise', that a proper backstory would reveal. So here we have a character who should not have a proper backstory because it would interfere with the plot.

Actually, I thought the typical Elan behaviour was explained pretty well in this panel: :D http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html

Aside from that, the assumption here is that it's a character's past that will be critical to the main plot, not their relatives. Elan grew up with his mother fairly uneventfully, from what we know (or at least, as uneventfully as Elan's life can possibly be...), so any critical importance his father might have won't actually tie into his past. Also, nobody's talking about a plot centered on the main character, just that something critical concerning said character's past will come into play.

The references to Vaarsuvius' past in his backstory don't really tell us anything about him that we couldn't have guessed. (Maybe apart from him having ranger parents... XD) Becoming an apprentice at an early age and then leaving to see the world is pretty standard for a wizard. We're assuming that V, being the studious, dedicated person he is, didn't do much else in his years of adolescence. We also have reason to believe that he lied about his age, giving us a gap of several decades between being evicted and becoming an adventurer that we know nothing about.

On top of it all, not only is Vaarsuvius somewhat reckless (messing with the natural order of the universe when bored???), he actually has the capacity to cause more trouble than Durkon or Haley or even Elan possibly could. Because he's a wizard, and a capable, determined, dangerously confident one at that.

Add to that V seeming to have lied with no apparent cause and an apparent concern for his secrets being revealed, and it's reasonable to think that Vaarsuvius has something to hide.

Therefore, I am assuming that Vaarsuvius may have done some pretty risky things in his youth while out and about in the world. Seeing as HIS risky activities are more likely to have a larger scale, since he's a wizard, I am concluding that it will be something related to him that will come into play.

Didn't the Giant say we would meet V's mate? If that happened, more backstory would probably be inevitable.

[Prowl]

It would pretty much have to be Belkar; we know enough about the backstory of all the rest of the members that for it to be somebody else, it would be very very hard to explain the omission or to fit it into the timelines. Whereas with Belkar, all we ever get to know about his backstory is that shortly before joining the Order he was jailed for slaughtering a bunch of people in a bar. We know literally nothing else of his history.

[Texas Jedi]

I think it might be :durkon:. He hasn't really been specific on why he left the dwarven lands. He has said that he was on a mission from his lord. We know that one of the gates is in the Dwarven Lands so maybe the dwarves found it and sent out people to investigate if there are any more.

Dwarves do live a long time and and I would argue that he is the oldest member of the OotS. Now my idea might be anwsered in the OoPC but I have it and haven't read it yet.

[Deepkicker]

I think it might be :durkon:. He hasn't really been specific on why he left the dwarven lands. He has said that he was on a mission from his lord. We know that one of the gates is in the Dwarven Lands so maybe the dwarves found it and sent out people to investigate if there are any more.

Dwarves do live a long time and and I would argue that he is the oldest member of the OotS. Now my idea might be anwsered in the OoPC but I have it and haven't read it yet.

I'm afraid it has been answered.

Durkon was made to leave because of a prophecy which states that the next time he returns home he will bring death and destruction. The high priest sent him to human lands indefinitely so that he would never return.

[Teatime]

Actually, I thought the typical Elan behaviour was explained pretty well in this panel: :D http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html

Aside from that, the assumption here is that it's a character's past that will be critical to the main plot, not their relatives. Elan grew up with his mother fairly uneventfully, from what we know (or at least, as uneventfully as Elan's life can possibly be...), so any critical importance his father might have won't actually tie into his past. Also, nobody's talking about a plot centered on the main character, just that something critical concerning said character's past will come into play.

The references to Vaarsuvius' past in his backstory don't really tell us anything about him that we couldn't have guessed. (Maybe apart from him having ranger parents... XD) Becoming an apprentice at an early age and then leaving to see the world is pretty standard for a wizard. We're assuming that V, being the studious, dedicated person he is, didn't do much else in his years of adolescence. We also have reason to believe that he lied about his age, giving us a gap of several decades between being evicted and becoming an adventurer that we know nothing about.

On top of it all, not only is Vaarsuvius somewhat reckless (messing with the natural order of the universe when bored???), he actually has the capacity to cause more trouble than Durkon or Haley or even Elan possibly could. Because he's a wizard, and a capable, determined, dangerously confident one at that.

Add to that V seeming to have lied with no apparent cause and an apparent concern for his secrets being revealed, and it's reasonable to think that Vaarsuvius has something to hide.

Therefore, I am assuming that Vaarsuvius may have done some pretty risky things in his youth while out and about in the world. Seeing as HIS risky activities are more likely to have a larger scale, since he's a wizard, I am concluding that it will be something related to him that will come into play.

Didn't the Giant say we would meet V's mate? If that happened, more backstory would probably be inevitable.


I agree with this chap. Plus, check out this comic: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0328.html

It's obvious Haley would be frightened at the prospect of having the "truths of her heart laid bare for all to know," but Vaarsuvius is freaking out, as well. Hmmm.

[SlightlyEvil]

My money is on Elan. The Lord Tyrinar plotline is too good to pass up.

Also, can we just slap an "[OtOoPCs Spoilers!]" tag in the thread title? It's a pain to have to open a spoiler for every post, plus a few in the quotes.

[Lissou]

I'd say that other than Belkar, the only 2 characters whose story in OooPCs isn't plot-significant are V and Elan. But V's still has a quick summary of his/her life, whiel Elan just has some random event that although funny, doesn't seem of much significance.
V's influenced another story at least, too, so it's more important... Although it was obviously for the fun factor.

So I'd say the character in question would be Elan. It seemed obvious to me when I first read oOoPC and it still is. V would be my second choice, but I kinda doubt it.

[Texas Jedi]

Maybe V is married to Girard.

[silvadel]

Maybe V's whole life is a lie. For all we know V could *BE* Girard. The theme of a character level drained to low level with partial amnesia is a trope that hasnt been done in OOTS yet.

[Kaytara]

Maybe V's whole life is a lie. For all we know V could *BE* Girard. The theme of a character level drained to low level with partial amnesia is a trope that hasnt been done in OOTS yet.

Isn't that pushing it a bit, though? Occam's Razor would certainly come in handy right now. It's possible that V is just a young elf wizard who's trying to put some past mistakes behind him and erase all traces of them, he wouldn't be the first.
So instead to assume that V is actually a male human illusionist who helped save the world, got epic levels, was drained of his power and probably his memory, was implanted with false memories of growing up as an elf, oh and right, either became an androgynous purpe-haired elf wizard or has constantly been upholding some sort of elaborate illusion... and I've completely lost track of how this could even be possible now. XD

So yeah, to assume that would be... odd. XD

[Texas Jedi]

V might not be Girard he might be a symalicrum (sp) of him. That would explain the loss of levels and the lack of memory.

[Zordrath]

While it could be possible, I think we need some more evidence for it before being able to speculate about that. So far, there is absolutely nothing connecting Girard and V, and Girard's character seems to have been completely different from V's.

Personally, I think we will sooner or later learn some more important facts about all three suggested characters: Haley, Elan and V.

Haley has even admitted to still having a secret even her most trusted friend doesn't know, and that she hasn't told her boyfriend, either. Add to that that the Giant said in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools that Haley hasn't shown all her true colors yet, and that this secret would be another key way in which she's opposed to Sabine, a fiend, and I'm sure Haley still has a revelation to offer, even if it might not be utterly plot relevant.

As for Elan, we simply don't know very much about him yet, and Origins revealed nothing at all. The Giant himself said that he was keeping some members' important past for himself, and I think it's Elan, because he's, apart from Belkar (whose past we never will learn), the one we know the least about.

V is a given, simply because we have yet to see his/her mate. I'm quite sure the OOTS won't just stumble across her/him without any relevant context, and like Haley, V did give evidence he has, in fact, something to hide (it might have been done simply for the joke in that particular comic, though, and just have referred to one of V's experiments).

[AlexanderRM]

We have quite a number of possibilities. With V, we have, as stated before, a lack of actually seeing backstory beyond a few days in OOPC, so that information could be false: we also have his/her spouse that we have yet to meet in-comic. I don't remember where V lied about has/her age, but if that's there, then it's more evidence.

On the other hand, with Haley, we have an Ultimate Secret that even V doesn't know, that was deliberately cut off in order to avoid revealing it. There's definitely something about Haley being hidden from the readers. I'm thinking we'll probably have most of her remaining backstory revealed in the greysky city arc, but it's not a certainty.

Then we have Roy: there was a smaller part of the dialogue with his father that I'm almost certain was deliberately skipped, not just to avoid telling us what we already knew.

And there's also the possibility of Elan, though I do think that that's largely because there wasn't much to tell.

So... I'd bet that the giant is deliberately giving us as many possibilities as possible to prevent us from guessing. The fact that almost all the characters have evidence towards them could even be potential evidence that it's Durkon or Belkar, just so we wouldn't guess it... Durkon sounds more likely, but the entire point of that theory is that it would be the character we won't guess.

So... probably not much point discussing. The Giant has covered his tracks quite well.

[Kish]

Then we have Roy: there was a smaller part of the dialogue with his father that I'm almost certain was deliberately skipped, not just to avoid telling us what we already knew.
Actually, that part is told in Start of Darkness. So you're right that it was deliberately skipped, but it doesn't relate to the important past question.

[Kaytara]

Concerning the gaps in Roy's dialogue, weren't they filled in in SoD?

But you're right. In any case, Rich's exact words were "...in the case of at least one character..." :)

[AlexanderRM]

Actually, that part is told in Start of Darkness. So you're right that it was deliberately skipped, but it doesn't relate to the important past question.
Ah. That still leaves us with V, Haley, and possibly Elan.





But you're right. In any case, Rich's exact words were "...in the case of at least one character..." :)
Ah. Smart of him, that leaves us with many more possibilities to guess at.

[Lira]

I scanned through this topic and I see no mention of this...In No Cure for the Paladin Blues, Rich makes a very interesting comment in his commentary for Round 3 (Strips 175 - 189). He says, "But I wasn't quite ready to delve into V's history..."
Now, if all V's history is being apprenticed to a wizard then being kicked out after 60 years... well, there's nothing to "delve" into about that. Rich's comment strongly implies there's more to V's past and that he will, one day, bring it up in the comic. And I really doubt Rich would bring it up if it didn't affect the plot in some way. So I'm convinced V is the member with an important past.

[Siegel]

And there is also the oracel with this "By saying all the right words for all the wrong reasons" thing. My dip on V

[AKA_Bait]

But you're right. In any case, Rich's exact words were "...in the case of at least one character..." :)

Indeed. Probably Haley, Elan and V all have things in their past that will be plot relevant that have not yet been shown. The other characters might too, although at least in the cases of Roy and Durkon, I doubt it.