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arguskos
2008-08-15, 03:09 AM
I hear frequently about the Big Three Core casters and how they rock. I hear tons about how Fighters/Samurai/Monks/etc suck. I even hear praises sung from the hills about classes like Swordsage and Beguiler, but I rarely hear anything about some classes.

What about the Archivist? Or the Ninja? Swashbuckler anyone? Spirit Shaman and Knight want hugs. Does anyone love the Wu Jen or the Hexblade? I know these classes aren't optimal (or even very good in some cases) but surely the Archivist, at the VERY least (though Dread Necro is good, Knight's not terrible, Duskblade is decent, etc), should get mentioned sometimes, though he almost never is.

Mostly, I'm wondering if these, less popular classes are less discussed because they suck, because no one cares, or because people just forget about them?

-argus

Behold_the_Void
2008-08-15, 03:33 AM
Archivist gets mentioned a lot, it's one of the more powerful classes in the game as a matter of fact. The others you mention tend to be... decent-ish. Swashbuckler is usually mentioned for a 3-level dip, Hexblade comes up occasionally but there tend to be better options around, Wu Jen is a Wizard with a crappier spell list, Knight is considered pretty decent at what it does but tends to be overshadowed by Tome of Battle classes, and Ninja is ok, as I recall. Spirit Shaman I don't think is particularly interesting. In most cases, I think those classes you mentioned all have other classes that do what they do only better, but they're not bad at what they do like the bottom-tier classes are.

TheCountAlucard
2008-08-15, 04:40 AM
Admittedly, classes that get mentioned most are those that are extraordinarily good, and those that are extraordinarily bad.

Actually, that's how it is about a lot of things... :smallsigh:

Saph
2008-08-15, 05:15 AM
Mostly, I'm wondering if these, less popular classes are less discussed because they suck, because no one cares, or because people just forget about them?

Mostly because people just forget about them, I think. Which is a shame in some ways, as some of those classes really are forgettable, but others are very well made.

Duskblade, for instance, is an excellently balanced class that's effective and flexible (without being overpowering) at every level from 1 to 20. It's one of my favourite classes to play in one-shot adventures.

- Saph

arguskos
2008-08-15, 05:29 AM
I'd agree that some are honestly forgettable, but some others I just don't know how we miss. Take Spellthief, for instance. It's a cool mechanic, not often done. I read it, liked it, and somehow totally forgot it existed after an hour. I never see it referenced, ever, and wonder why. It's not cause it's not cool (cause it is). I dunno, I guess I just feel bad that so many classes go unloved.

That's it, I need to make a single character at level 1 for EVERY base class out there, so they can each have their time to shine (and yes, I mean EVERY class... Samurai, I'm lookin' at you).

-argus

Zeta Kai
2008-08-15, 05:52 AM
All I know is that the Factotum is made of 100% pure WIN.
But yes, Saph, the Duskblade is most awesome as well.

kamikasei
2008-08-15, 05:54 AM
Why would these classes be referenced? Why would they crop up in discussion?

People seem to get the most jawin' material out of the extreme ends of class balance - the overpowered and the sucky. Reasonably balanced classes that don't stand out as ridiculously better at everything they do than everyone else, or being completely incapable of fulfilling their intended purpose, just don't draw attention for those reasons.

People do occasionally bring up classes like Spellthief, Spirit Shaman, etc, but only if they want advice on how to play one. If a class is decent but not crazy powerful, you don't need that much advice, so it doesn't come up.

Eldariel
2008-08-15, 09:13 AM
Archivist is win. It's right there with Druids, Wizards, Clerics and Artificers on the top of the mountain. And it gets mentioned in numbers appropriate for that. Only thing is, most arguments area "core" nowadays and only 3 of the best 5 classes in the game are core.

FatherMalkav
2008-08-15, 09:41 AM
Personally I love my Archivist. I don't play divine spell casters ever so when I was drafted into the divine roll I agreed only if I could play that class. They have a nice Lovecraftian feel to them and their Dark Knowledge power is very nice. Their biggest bonus is they can cast any divine spell written, not only cleric, but also druid, paladin and ranger, and anything else you can find (I believe even Arcane Domain spells if you find them written). If you're in a game with a lot of undead, outsiders, aberrations, magical beasts, or elementals or even if you just want to play divine without being a walking box of band aids, Archivist is the way to go in my opinion.

Neon Knight
2008-08-15, 09:45 AM
If I remember correctly, the 3.5e Ninja got a little bit of flak for not being a good team player. Most of its abilities and the employment of said abilities only work alone or in the company of other Ninja; most other classes would give away the Ninja.

As a loner to perform quick ambush assassinations, the Ninja was good, but as a team member PC its use was limited.

I don't have first hand experience with the Ninja, mind you, but that was the summary of most reports on its effectiveness.

OneFamiliarFace
2008-08-15, 09:49 AM
I'm all for the Hexblade as awesome-town. The main problem was that I don't even think they could stand toe-to-toe with a paladin, at any level. And they were supposed to kind of be the arcane version of that class. Especially with the Duskblade and a lot of the fighter/caster PrCs, the Hexblade was something you'd really only play for flavor, and if that flavor was bad luck, there were also a plethora of classes having to do with luck which were far more effective.

Still, I hold a special place in my heart for the Hexblade and his only real ability: Hexblade's curse.

I think I'm gonna go see if I can't make a winner out of him in 4e!

Arcane_Snowman
2008-08-15, 10:00 AM
Archivist is extremely strong on the basis that they can learn EVERY (and I mean every) single Divine spell there is, they are not limited to a spells list as the Wizard is, and I think I recall some cheesy Warlock trick that allows you to manufacture ANY (as in any and every spell, divine or arcane) given spell as a divine spell, thus enabling the Archivist to acquire all the horribly nasty spells that are only available to Wizards, and combine them with all the nasty spells that are only available to Clerics and Druids.

I really, really like Spirit Shaman. In terms of raw power, it is not as good as a Druid, but in terms of spellcasting it is far superior. It has in my mind got the best (and I really mean the best) form of spellcasting available to any class. The only thing is, that even that is not enough to compensate for the lack of Wild Shape.

Hexblade and Spellthief suffer from the same problem as Paladin and Ranger, they have abilities from two different classes, which have been watered down too much, while not having new special features to make up for their lack of power. If their spells were to be a bit more useful, they might be competitive (I recall having house ruled in a Prestige Spellthief on occasion, and I've also done some work on making a more interesting Hexblade)

The problem with Wu Jen and Beguiler (and Beguiler has the same issue as the sorcerer, it acquires spells one level later) is that they have set spells lists, although it does mention in the other books, that specifically themed spells that fit with the classes, should be included on the spells lists, they are still pretty much closed off from a lot of possibilities.

Duskblade is a neat class that I find enjoyable to play on occasion.

Swashbuckler does have its uses, but they tend to mostly in the region of 3 level dips or for the purpose of Daring Outlaw (I think its name is)

All I know is that the Factotum is made of 100% pure WIN.
But yes, Saph, the Duskblade is most awesome as well.
Indeed, Factotum is my favorite class, its made of win and awesome.

I was never really that impressed with the Knight to be honest.

Lets not go into the War Mage, it is a horrible class, based on a horrible school of magic and is horribly weak.

Darrin
2008-08-15, 10:03 AM
What about the Archivist? Or the Ninja? Swashbuckler anyone? Spirit Shaman and Knight want hugs. Does anyone love the Wu Jen or the Hexblade? I know these classes aren't optimal (or even very good in some cases) but surely the Archivist, at the VERY least (though Dread Necro is good, Knight's not terrible, Duskblade is decent, etc), should get mentioned sometimes, though he almost never is.


Most of them fall somewhere in the middle. But if you want the off-the-cuff opinion of someone who's never played any of these classes...

Archivist leans quite heavily toward the deeper "borken!" end of the pool. It doesn't get talked about too much because it requires a *lot* of research and effort, moreso than your usual wizard, to track down the optimum spells. The number of sourcebooks and the time to dig through them and dig out the really juicy spells is just simply exhaustive. Some DMs preserve their sanity by restricting which sourcebooks you can mine, or making research of obscure spells tougher.

Ninja was another attempt to make a playable monk, and by most opinions it didn't work so well. To be fair, the designers did try to avoid some of the monk problems, and attempted to make some of the Ninja abilities work together, such as Sudden Strike and Ghost Step. But Sudden Strike is more difficult to use than Sneak Attack, and once you get up past the easy CRs, monsters that can see invisible opponents can become pretty common. The Ninja frequently gets overlooked because anything it can do, a rogue can usually do better.

Swashbuckler has a couple problems. "Grace", for example... would have been much more elegant to just give them a good Ref save. It also becomes a complete snorefest after level 3. It could use some fighter bonus feats or a variety of rogue special abilities... instead, it gets a few bells & whistles here and there, and eventually some ability damage on criticals. Like the Ninja, you can usually design a much more effective swashbuckler by playing a fighter or rogue.

Spirit Shaman I know almost nothing about, hated the artwork for it and never paid much attention to it. It appears to be someone's attempt to nerf the druid into a more balanced caster by turning the animal companion into an imaginary sparkle pony and removing wildshape. Which leaves the question, if you want a divine caster without the animal companion and wild shape, why the heck wouldn't you play a cleric? Clerics get domain powers, free cure spells, turning attempts to trade in for "I Win" buttons, and oh, hey... Divine Power.

Knight is another attempt to make a more decent Paladin/Cavalier. And from what I hear, it's actually pretty playable. It works because it fills a niche that the other base classes haven't addressed directly: battlefield control via the knight's challenge ability. That being said, it probably isn't talked about as much because it's a bit of a one-trick pony. Issue some challenges, charge it into a bloody pulp on your mount, and you're done.

Wu Jen is functionally very close to a wizard, just refluffed a bit. Slightly better spell selection than the shujenga, but not enough of the really good Batman spells to stand toe-to-toe with the other spellcasters. On the other hand, it's got enough of a selection that it may be one of the more balanced spellcasters... maybe closer what the wizard should have been, balance-wise.

Hex Blade we know is a lemon because the designer came right out afterwards and said it was underpowered. At the time, the designers thought mixing spellcasting with a full BAB would lead to balance problems. If you can track down the post, the designer suggested some fixes. However, the real fix for the Hex Blade is the Duskblade. If you want to mix spellcasting with a full BAB melee class, then the Duskblade has everything you need.

Hmm... what am I missing? Let's see...

Warmage. Another attempt at a spellcaster who isn't afraid to get his hands dirty... the warmage gets a lot of "meh" mostly because of the limited spell selection and the focus on direct damage, which is usually a sub-optimal strategy for spellcasting. What puts the nail in the Warmage's coffin, however, is the designers are deathly afraid of metamagic monster they created, and have attempted to put a leash on the metamagic shenanigans with the "Sudden" versions. For a direct-damage blaster, though, metamagic you can only use 1/day just plain stinks. If you want to do a direct damage blaster, you can get a lot more bang for your buck with another spellcasting class.

Favored Soul is a nerf of the cleric, much like the spirit shaman was a nerf of the druid. You want to Divine Power the fighter into a weeping puddle of shame? Fine, but you lose domain powers and converting turning attempts to Divine Metacheese. As a class, it's not bad... more balanced, maybe what the cleric should have been, but anything it can do the cleric can still do better.

Shujenga is the divine version of a sorcerer, and normally that would put it at the top of the pile, but what sinks it toward the bottom is a very limited spell selection. This could easily have been fixed with some sourcebook support, but it didn't get any. I like the flavor, but a good example of too much flavor handcuffing usability.

Healer is frequently idenfitied as underpowered because they took one thing the cleric does pretty well (cast cure spells) and stripped out everything else. So you're stuck being That Cleric. Yes, the one that does absolutely nothing but run up to people and heal them. Except you cannot heal hopeless boredom... ugh. The one thing it does that no other class does... it can cast more spells per day. So... hmmm. Yeah, have fun with that.

Scout is sort of a wilderness rogue, but the designers seem to be afraid of skirmish damage, and have been loathe to give a lot of it out, even to the class that's supposed to specialize in it. As a "tweener", the Scout may be a little too diluted... if you want a skill monkey, the rogue can do the same thing a scout can do, and has more sneak attack damage. If you want a wilderness-type that can skill-monkey and fight... the ranger is a better fighter, and isn't too shabby in the skill department either.

Spellthief I know very little about, but its signature ability depends on going up against other spellcasters, which tend to be the most powerful classes in the game. So you have to get close to a spellcaster, surprise them with a sneak attack, and then if you're lucky you can use one of their spells against them on a later turn... not exactly a class for the faint of heart. It seems to me, though, if you want to steal things, the rogue does that pretty darned well. And if you want to cast spells, well, be a spellcaster. And if you want to do both... Arcane Trickster's pretty easy to qualify for.

Marshall is... okay, you're in charge of fighters, but you have a medium BAB. Huh... so you're some kind of REMF or a bard who can't sing or cast spells? Ok, well, the extra move actions are nice, since extra actions in D&D = Win Button, but while the marshall starts off with some interesting but minor buffs, it just doesn't go anywhere in the higher levels.

Dragon Shaman is supposed to be some sort of nod to how mighty dragons are, but *real* dragons have a better-than-mediocre BAB, rip-your-lungs-out kind of melee damage, a breath weapon that can do more than mildly annoy enemies, more HP than you can shake a 10-ft. pole at, fly way way way before ECL 19, cast real spells, and wouldn't be caught dead using some kind of wimpy "aura". Other than that, the dragon shaman suffers from the same problem that the Marshall does: starts off pretty decent, but very weak finish.

Well, that should be more than enough from me.

ghost_warlock
2008-08-15, 10:07 AM
Hexblade, like the paladin, suffers in that it's primary class ability has extremely limited uses/day without the benefit of enhancing feats outside of a handful published in an obscure issue of Dragon Magazine. It's other class abilities (Arcane Resistance and Mettle) are nice but not super-good since there's other ways to go about getting similar abilities from other classes.

The spirit shaman is a fun-looking class with a cool mechanic and some interesting abilities but suffers from some MAD for it's spellcasting, which is a major pain for anyone wishing to play one and still be competent at other things.

Wu Jen and Shugenja are interesting classes, but both are typically only considered for Oriental camapaigns and then only if the DM won't allow wizards and clerics, respectively since the latter classes are more powerful.

Part of the issue is also that WotC hasn't offered much of any support for these classes in the form of extra feats or PrCs benefitting them specifically (except the Wu Jen's watchful spirit ability, which is actually kind of lame).

I see the spellthief mentioned fairly often and it has few feats published for it in books other than the one it was introduced in. It's superior to the arcane trickster, but probably doesn't get as much love as the beguiler since that class is simply better on the spellcasting side (which is the true path to power, after all).


Hex Blade we know is a lemon because the designer came right out afterwards and said it was underpowered. At the time, the designers thought mixing spellcasting with a full BAB would lead to balance problems. If you can track down the post, the designer suggested some fixes.

Here's (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10585113#post10585113) a link to what the designer says he might have done differently.

Arcane_Snowman
2008-08-15, 10:13 AM
I see the spellthief mentioned fairly often and it has few feats published for it in books other than the one it was introduced in. It's superior to the arcane trickster, but probably doesn't get as much love as the beguiler since that class is simply better on the spellcasting side (which is the true path to power, after all). Superior to the Arcane Trickster How? (I know Unseen Seer is a vast improvement, but I haven't heard anything about the Spellthief even comparing with the Arcane Trickster in anything, except perhaps skills, and those don't really matter when you have wizard levels anywho) Arcane Trickster still has spells higher than level 4, has Orbs of X (which work particularly well with Sneak Attack I might add, that or the Acid Splatter reserve feat), while it might be a bit harder to enter than the Spellthief, but thats about it.

ghost_warlock
2008-08-15, 10:28 AM
Superior to the Arcane Trickster How? (I know Unseen Seer is a vast improvement, but I haven't heard anything about the Spellthief even comparing with the Arcane Trickster in anything, except perhaps skills, and those don't really matter when you have wizard levels anywho) Arcane Trickster still has spells higher than level 4, has Orbs of X (which work particularly well with Sneak Attack I might add, that or the Acid Splatter reserve feat), while it might be a bit harder to enter than the Spellthief, but thats about it.

The soonest you can enter arcane trickster is 9th level (2d6 SA, 3rd-level spells prereqs, so you're looking at a 10th-level entry as a sorcerer). The spellthief has both spells, steal spells, steal spell-like ability, and +2d6 sneak attack by 5th level without having to do anything other than simply advance in the class.

Spellthief also has the almighty UMD as a class skill, which synergies well with Cha being the class' primary casting stat. Arcane Trickster doesn't have UMD as a class skill, which I find franky absurd.

Sinfire Titan
2008-08-15, 10:34 AM
Superior to the Arcane Trickster How? (I know Unseen Seer is a vast improvement, but I haven't heard anything about the Spellthief even comparing with the Arcane Trickster in anything, except perhaps skills, and those don't really matter when you have wizard levels anywho) Arcane Trickster still has spells higher than level 4, has Orbs of X (which work particularly well with Sneak Attack I might add, that or the Acid Splatter reserve feat), while it might be a bit harder to enter than the Spellthief, but thats about it.


The soonest you can enter arcane trickster is 9th level (2d6 SA, 3rd-level spells prereqs, so you're looking at a 10th-level entry as a sorcerer). The spellthief has both spells, steal spells, steal spell-like ability, and +2d6 sneak attack by 5th level without having to do anything other than simply advance in the class.

Spellthief also has the almighty UMD as a class skill, which synergies well with Cha being the class' primary casting stat. Arcane Trickster doesn't have UMD as a class skill, which I find franky absurd.

Spellthief 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 8/Arcane Trickster 6 with Master Spellthief is actually very viable. Spellthief 20 just sucks outright due to lack of spellcasting enemies and crappy sneak attack bonuses.

Vael Nir
2008-08-15, 10:37 AM
The spellthief can also use acid splatter to sneak and steal spells with. He can also gain buffs through other party members willing to let him grab buffs off them (including "personal" buffs like divine power), lower spell resistance of a target, lower energy resistance, steal SLA's, use arcane sight as a SLA (pretty useful imo), *automatically know* all spells prepared/known by a target past lvl 13, UMD and some other fun stuff (absorb spell).

Of course, I would never play one in a low magic campaign. High magic, there's always loads of fun things to do.

Sinfire Titan
2008-08-15, 10:51 AM
Scout is sort of a wilderness rogue, but the designers seem to be afraid of skirmish damage, and have been loathe to give a lot of it out, even to the class that's supposed to specialize in it. As a "tweener", the Scout may be a little too diluted... if you want a skill monkey, the rogue can do the same thing a scout can do, and has more sneak attack damage. If you want a wilderness-type that can skill-monkey and fight... the ranger is a better fighter, and isn't too shabby in the skill department either.

Scout's actually a very good class compared to the Spellthief and Ninja. It comes close to what the Rogue can do, but the differences between the two put a gap between their abilities (Rogue comes out ahead with UMD as a class skill). That said, Cloistered Cleric 1/Scout 4/Ranger 15 is one hell of a skirmisher build, especially with TWFing.


Marshall is... okay, you're in charge of fighters, but you have a medium BAB. Huh... so you're some kind of REMF or a bard who can't sing or cast spells? Ok, well, the extra move actions are nice, since extra actions in D&D = Win Button, but while the marshall starts off with some interesting but minor buffs, it just doesn't go anywhere in the higher levels.

Marshall sucks. End of story. Any time I have a player who wants to play one, I show them the Sublime Marshall fix and they change their minds almost instantly.


Dragon Shaman is supposed to be some sort of nod to how mighty dragons are, but *real* dragons have a better-than-mediocre BAB, rip-your-lungs-out kind of melee damage, a breath weapon that can do more than mildly annoy enemies, more HP than you can shake a 10-ft. pole at, fly way way way before ECL 19, cast real spells, and wouldn't be caught dead using some kind of wimpy "aura". Other than that, the dragon shaman suffers from the same problem that the Marshall does: starts off pretty decent, but very weak finish.

Well, that should be more than enough from me.

Dragon Shaman is actually playable past 4th level, something the Marshall can't hold a candle to. It plays to around 14th or so, though most of what it can do the Dragonfire Adept does better.

And for my 2 cents:

Incarnate: Looks can fool everyone easily. This class looks underpowered and heavily restrictive, but it actually can be a potent character in its own right. If you crunch some numbers, you'll find that the Incarnate can pull ahead of everyone who isn't able to cast 5th level spells (or has a Strength score in the mid 60's). The Incarnate can get higher attack bonuses, better skill checks, and a high armor class faster than a majority of the other classes out there. Spellcasters come out ahead of them, but they can hold their own thanks to a few of their Soulmelds.

Totemist: I honestly feel that this class is one of the strongest for melee combat. The number of attacks they can make is sickening in its own right, and they have all of the mobility the full casters enjoy without the use of magic items. If you need proof, I can make a Totemist 4/Barbarian 2 that can solo a Young Adult White Dragon (barely though).

Soulborn: This class is only slightly better than the Divine Mind. Otherwise, it isn't worth a damn.

Divine Mind: Speaking of crap...

Ardent: I've heard they compare to the Psion. Never seen a real one in action though.

Lurk: The holes in the class aside, its a decent Rogue replacement.

Factotum: Where the hell do I start with this class? Aside from the facts that it is a Jack of All Trades that works, I'd say it is a great class. Just add Font of Inspiration for awesome.

Te'Shen
2008-08-15, 10:53 AM
. . .
Warmage. Another attempt at a spellcaster who isn't afraid to get his hands dirty... the warmage gets a lot of "meh" mostly because of the limited spell selection and the focus on direct damage, which is usually a sub-optimal strategy for spellcasting. What puts the nail in the Warmage's coffin, however, is the designers are deathly afraid of metamagic monster they created, and have attempted to put a leash on the metamagic shenanigans with the "Sudden" versions. For a direct-damage blaster, though, metamagic you can only use 1/day just plain stinks. If you want to do a direct damage blaster, you can get a lot more bang for your buck with another spellcasting class. . .The warmage is fine. He's one of the nicer archers out there... the problem happens when you think of him as a caster. It's kind of like the warlock actually, except the warlock is just more interesting.

And as for scout, it's a good skill monkey class. Add the swift hunter feat and levels of ranger to taste and you're good.

GryffonDurime
2008-08-15, 10:53 AM
I have an unabashed love of the Wu Jen. Their (admittedly sparse) unique spells are among some of the simplest and fun effects in the player's toolbox: things like Body Outside Body, Giant Size, and Arboreal Transformation. I agree that the Wu Jen's toned-down spell list is much better in terms of balance, as well.

Not to mention that Epic Spell Secrets are heinous.

Bayar
2008-08-15, 06:00 PM
Here is one that was unmentioned: Truenamer (from tome of magic). It was unmentioned and should not be mentioned again.

no seroiously, the class is busted.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-15, 06:19 PM
Spellthief -1 dip with a Spellcaster using the Master Spellthief feat does a lot of what the base class is supposed to do.

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Master_Spellthief,CS

Spellthief -5 rocks in a planar campaign or summoning campaign doing things like stealing Wishes from Genies. (Basically the spell like abilities your DM/GM will normally limit or twist to the party detriment):smallcool:

I like Archivist but not the Dark Lore it is so much easier just to give the class Bardic Lore.

I'd like to see an official Arcane equivalent to the Spirit Shaman not the poor Dragon magazine update for the Sorcerer similar to the old Shair class in the Al-Qadim setting.

Wujen are flavorful but cheated mechanically with their limited spell list.

Aneantir
2008-08-15, 06:20 PM
The soonest you can enter arcane trickster is 9th level (2d6 SA, 3rd-level spells prereqs, so you're looking at a 10th-level entry as a sorcerer). The spellthief has both spells, steal spells, steal spell-like ability, and +2d6 sneak attack by 5th level without having to do anything other than simply advance in the class.

8th level for Arcane Trickster, actually.

Spellthief 1/Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster works fine.

And as far as the spellthief actually goes, it's a great dip class for arcane casters. Dip into it for one level, take the Master Spellthief feat from Complete Scoundrel at level 6 to have your spellthief level stack with your arcane caster level for determining caster level and spells you can steal, and gives you arcane casting in light armor without a failure chance. Then just tack on Battle Caster and get yourself a suit Mithral Full Plate and you're good to go.

Also, Spellthief is hilarious in a Gestalt game. Spellthief 3/Wizard 3 with the Master Spellthief feat = CL 6. So, by the time you get to later levels you'll have a caster level through the roof, allowing you to laugh at caster level checks, give you silly amounts of damage dice for spells, and have buffs that last all day long without needed you to use Extend Spell on them.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-15, 06:24 PM
Binder/Caster Anima Mages are pretty cool and fun to play if you can get entry with a feat trick.

I like feat tricks IMO the way for WOTC to clearly bar early entry into a PRC is to simply have a single or multiple appropiate minimum skill rank(s) required for entry into the PRC since it is basically impossible to defeat the mechanic without DM permission (Things like Mortally Possessed by a Diety will do it).

Arcane_Snowman
2008-08-15, 06:29 PM
The soonest you can enter arcane trickster is 9th level (2d6 SA, 3rd-level spells prereqs, so you're looking at a 10th-level entry as a sorcerer). The spellthief has both spells, steal spells, steal spell-like ability, and +2d6 sneak attack by 5th level without having to do anything other than simply advance in the class.

Spellthief also has the almighty UMD as a class skill, which synergies well with Cha being the class' primary casting stat. Arcane Trickster doesn't have UMD as a class skill, which I find franky absurd. That is true, although it doesn't matter that much, since the prerequisites already include sneak attack (something I commonly attain with a level of rogue) you only have to buy UMD as a cross class skill, while still having the class skill maximum allowed ranks, and quite frankly, there should be high Intelligence in the build that two skill points won't be that big an issue.

The spellthief can also use acid splatter to sneak and steal spells with. He can also gain buffs through other party members willing to let him grab buffs off them (including "personal" buffs like divine power), lower spell resistance of a target, lower energy resistance, steal SLA's, use arcane sight as a SLA (pretty useful imo), *automatically know* all spells prepared/known by a target past lvl 13, UMD and some other fun stuff (absorb spell)..Acid Splatter works on the basis of dealing 1d6/level of the highest acid based spell, and as such there is a significant difference between the 9d6 that the Spellthief can dish out (maximum), against the 9d6+SA that the Trickster can dish out.
Although the Steal Spells and buffs are really cool, they are highly situational.

As far as I've seen with regards to Tome of Magic, Binder is the only thing of notice despite the other two having interesting ways of casting.

As to Magic of Incarnum, its wonderful book and absolutely lovable, I was playing a Totemist 4/Barbarian 2/Totemrager 3/Bear Warrior 1/Warshaper 2 in one of my previous games, and I absolutely loved it :smallbiggrin:

monty
2008-08-15, 06:29 PM
Here is one that was unmentioned: Truenamer (from tome of magic). It was unmentioned and should not be mentioned again.

no seroiously, the class is busted.

I'm pretty sure a Factotum is a better Truenamer than a Truenamer.

Deth Muncher
2008-08-15, 07:18 PM
I'm pretty sure a Factotum is a better Truenamer than a Truenamer.

Are Factotums better skillmonkeys than Rogues? If not, I'd vote a Rogue with Able Learner would be a better Truenamer than a Truenamer.

And also, Kos, as you may recall, the Dread Necro IS a great class. It's flufftastical, and if you play it right you can brizzake it. (Yes, brizzake.) I believe I was going to have 200 HD of undead at my beck and call as a 10th level Character? Plus basically having FH d8+X? Delicious.

Chronos
2008-08-15, 07:19 PM
Superior to the Arcane Trickster How? (I know Unseen Seer is a vast improvement, but I haven't heard anything about the Spellthief even comparing with the Arcane Trickster in anything, except perhaps skills, and those don't really matter when you have wizard levels anywho)If you think skills don't matter when you have wizard levels, then why not just go Wiz20?


Incarnate: Looks can fool everyone easily. This class looks underpowered and heavily restrictive, but it actually can be a potent character in its own right. If you crunch some numbers, you'll find that the Incarnate can pull ahead of everyone who isn't able to cast 5th level spells (or has a Strength score in the mid 60's). The Incarnate can get higher attack bonuses, better skill checks, and a high armor class faster than a majority of the other classes out there. Spellcasters come out ahead of them, but they can hold their own thanks to a few of their Soulmelds.The funny thing about the incarnum base classes is, the less you have of them, the better off you are. A level N incarnate can make skill checks comparable to a level N rogue, for instance, in a small number of skills, since the incarnate needs both soulmeld bonuses and cross-class ranks to keep up. But an incarnate 1/rogue (N-1) can do better than either. Or throw in three levels of Umbral Disciple (which is actually pretty nice), or Uncanny Trickster.

The Marshall is actually in the same boat: Almost anything he can do, he can do at first level. He just can't do everything at first level. But there's usually some particular thing you want to do, which is the reason you take the class. As a result, both Incarnate and Marshall end up being great 1-level dips; they're just not so good to stay in.


I'm pretty sure a Factotum is a better Truenamer than a Truenamer.In so far as a Factotum can actually make a True Speech check once per day (or maybe twice a day, using UMD and Arcane Dilettante to get skill-boosting spells), while a Truenamer can make it zero times per day.

Innis Cabal
2008-08-15, 07:31 PM
Ya, they are. They are -the- skill monkey

FMArthur
2008-08-15, 07:44 PM
I see Truenamers mentioned quite often, actually. Not once has it been in a good way, but it's a very commonly used example of a terrible magic system.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2008-08-15, 07:45 PM
If completely re-worked mechanically, the fluff is awesome. Earthsea ftw.

Gavin Sage
2008-08-15, 07:50 PM
I've always like the Scout as a class rather like what I see the Ranger as being, albeit on an archer focus. Though the no-spell variant of the Ranger I've seen of course hits every such note. I've always found minor casting to be rather silly.

On another note I've always wondered what makes the Archivist so badly broken... simply because all a DM has to do is just not make spells availible. A simple fix lost on too many for all balancing casting classes that one. To me the most annoying thing about the Archivist is that it rather undermines the nature of devotion if used in any of the established settings where you can worship "ideals" or the like.

Arcane_Snowman
2008-08-15, 07:55 PM
If you think skills don't matter when you have wizard levels, then why not just go Wiz20?
You could.
My mistake, let me correct myself: doesn't matter as much.
As far as I know, they have a fair few spells that'll allow them to circumvent a lot of would be cross-class skills:
Greater Invisibility - Hide, Silence - Move Silently (although that can be somewhat unwanted if you don't have silent spell), Charm X - Diplomacy, Divination - Gather information-ish/Search, Knock - Open Lock, Summon Monster I - Disable Device, Teleportation - Escape Artist-esque, Swim - Swim checks, Fly - Jump. Although most of them aren't all day spells, many of them will be more than adequate.

AstralFire
2008-08-15, 07:58 PM
I've always like the Scout as a class rather like what I see the Ranger as being, albeit on an archer focus. Though the no-spell variant of the Ranger I've seen of course hits every such note. I've always found minor casting to be rather silly.

On another note I've always wondered what makes the Archivist so badly broken... simply because all a DM has to do is just not make spells availible. A simple fix lost on too many for all balancing casting classes that one. To me the most annoying thing about the Archivist is that it rather undermines the nature of devotion if used in any of the established settings where you can worship "ideals" or the like.

"You can't use that" is a very un-ideal balancing method in a game where the marketing method is "here's more stuff to use." Especially the more you have to peruse. Unless you're going to force the Archivist's player to explain exactly what and how he plans to use each spell as he takes them, it's not very feasible. It's not like there's just one or two bad eggs in the magic pot.

Curmudgeon
2008-08-15, 08:37 PM
I think the Planar Monk (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040706a&page=2) might be the least-mentioned base class ever. It's like adding a souped-up exhaust to a Ford Focus.

arguskos
2008-08-15, 08:40 PM
I think the Planar Monk might be the least-mentioned base class ever. It's like adding a souped-up exhaust to a Ford Focus.
Pretty sure it's cause that's a series of substitution levels. Also, it fails in every way possible.

Also, I'm pretty sure Truenamers might actually be the least mentioned base class ever (talking about ones that actually have 20 levels and all that jazz).

-argus

Starbuck_II
2008-08-15, 11:13 PM
Does anyone love the Wu Jen or the Hexblade?
-argus
The Hexblade is just below par. I wiash he was better. With a few fixes her could be greater, but not he is not. They wenht to far in their cautious design.

Wu Jen: Just needs more support. They got decent spells (well a few crappy ones like Ice Knife, don't get me started on the crap it was), but some better than Wizard spells.
Snake Darts is made of awesome.

No save or die if roll high enough (Con damage that is).

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-15, 11:15 PM
True Namer probably works best with a Marshal -1 with a decent Charisma and magic items boosting it with the Motivate Intelligence Minor Aura.

TeeEl
2008-08-16, 12:03 AM
Does anyone love the Wu Jen or the Hexblade?

I like the Hexblade. Mostly because of the PHB II dark companion feature which is a sweet at-will debuff when you're in the single digit levels, but it has some other decent (if limited) debuffing synergy on top of that. Hexblade's curse is a free action, so while you have severely limited uses per day it's a very nice perk. You get good charisma and intimidate as a class skill, so if you pick up intimidating strike you can hit stuff to render it shaken, which gives it additional penalties. You get a few uses of some OK debuff spells, and Complete Mage has some feats that can add extra no-save debuffs on top of enchantment or necromancy spells you cast; your otherwise mostly useless level 5 bonus feat clears up the prerequisites to pick up one of these.

All in all hexblades are a pretty solid debuff at middling levels. Let the duskblade worry about attacking stuff for a bajillionty damage; your job is nerfing the hell out of enemy AC/attack rolls/saves.

Frosty
2008-08-16, 12:06 AM
If my Beguiler ever takes Leadership, he'll take a Hexblade cohort. They workso well togethr.

monty
2008-08-16, 12:27 AM
Are Factotums better skillmonkeys than Rogues? If not, I'd vote a Rogue with Able Learner would be a better Truenamer than a Truenamer.

Factotum gets Truenaming as a class skill (along with everything else). Rogue, even with Able Learner, can still only put half ranks into it (remember, it only makes all skills in-class for point cost, not max ranks).

Ganurath
2008-08-16, 12:38 AM
Warlock: Mentioned only when Tomb of Horrors is brought up.

Doresain
2008-08-16, 01:09 AM
what about the dread necro?

Dhavaer
2008-08-16, 01:33 AM
what about the dread necro?

Mentioned fairly often, mostly in regards to their potential for infinite healing.

Frosty
2008-08-16, 02:01 AM
Factotum gets Truenaming as a class skill (along with everything else). Rogue, even with Able Learner, can still only put half ranks into it (remember, it only makes all skills in-class for point cost, not max ranks).

I wish there is a racial substitution level for Changeling Factotums that gives them 12+Int skills...

Gavin Sage
2008-08-16, 04:07 PM
"You can't use that" is a very un-ideal balancing method in a game where the marketing method is "here's more stuff to use." Especially the more you have to peruse. Unless you're going to force the Archivist's player to explain exactly what and how he plans to use each spell as he takes them, it's not very feasible. It's not like there's just one or two bad eggs in the magic pot.

More stuff to use should NEVER equal you can use anything you can find in any book.

It should be at the DM discretion as to whether this makes sense in the campaign. A DM wants to run with no LA then that's there option, if he wants to ban a spell out of dislike thats there option. If a DM wants to run core only that's their option. And all of it doesn't have to be layed out in advance either. The DM is always right, and should take responsiblity to prevent cheese.

Back more on topic I'm not talking about standard clerical spells. However the Archivist is in theory supposed to be reasearching these spells, if something is fairly rare then there's no reason it must be availible to be researched. Or that its only availible on a tablet buried in a dungeon guarded by an ancient red dragon. Or maybe simply studying divine magic is not enough. A dwarf Archivist taking a spell on the basis of the Elf domain as an example. Depending on the setting I would even consider restrict Archivists to just universal and/or core divine spells completely fair. On the basis that odder/domain spells require a more direct devotion to a deity, which an Archivist lacks.

Not that there still isn't plenty of power in just the normal cleric spells to begin with.

Thurbane
2008-08-16, 07:00 PM
I may be wrong on this, but can't the Beguiler do basically everything a Rogue can do, minus sneak attack? And generally speaking, you get more bang for your buck from a bunch of spontaneous spells where you know everything of a given level on your spell list than you do from sneak attack anyway.

The only time a Beguiler really struggles is against opponents immune to mind-affecting spells. Most of the time, this means undead or constructs, which the Rogue can't sneak attack anyway (barring a few feats and alternate class features).

In my 3.X experience, the Rogue is the most replaceable of the party roles - but that may be because my group doesn't use traps all that often.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-16, 07:11 PM
I wish there is a racial substitution level for Changeling Factotums that gives them 12+Int skills...

Consider using that first level for the Variant Changeling Rogue which receives 10 + Int skills plus the fast diplomacy and gather information checks.

Collin152
2008-08-16, 07:13 PM
The only time a Beguiler really struggles is against opponents immune to mind-affecting spells. Most of the time, this means undead or constructs, which the Rogue can't sneak attack anyway (barring a few feats and alternate class features).


Plus, Illusions deal with constructs well enough, as well as unintelligent undead.
You don't even have to expect them- Spontaniety over the whole list.

Thurbane
2008-08-16, 07:28 PM
Plus, Illusions deal with constructs well enough, as well as unintelligent undead.
You don't even have to expect them- Spontaniety over the whole list.
True, plus there's always things like Glitterdust, Slow and Solid Fog. Not to mention that with UMD as a class skills, wands and scrolls of other spells are never that far out of reach.

mabriss lethe
2008-08-17, 12:10 AM
Hexblades get a lot of beef for being underpowered. They can be a real freaking challenge to play out of the box. I've seen the designer fix and approve wholeheartedly. I've played HB's without the fix, though, and they ran just fine. You just have to be very careful or you wind up very dead. I'd still play one any day over a duskblade, they just bore the living heck outta me for some reason.

Binder seems to only get real love from the handful of enthusiasts that really dig the flavor (I'm one of them.) other than that, you see it as a dip for things like Hellfire warlock. They're a balanced jack of all trades class that seemed designed from the start for multiclassing. Not quite a factotum, but few things are...

invokers (warlock and DFA)are pretty popular with a decent number of people. They're simple, easy to play and requirevirtually no book keeping. They're fairly well balanced and can hold their own in virtually any style of campaign. also one of the few viable classes for those "in-the-buff" scenarios that seem to crop up from time to time.

Soulknives are pretty crappy, though they can be a neat dip class for certain builds. It's like one of the designers had a neat idea, but didn't really know exactly what he wanted to do with it. The soulknife is a melee combatant with crap armor and 3/4 BAB. His special abilities aren't particularly useful without blowing all your feats on them, and they're still slightly sub-par after that. with 4+int skill he isn't a terrible skill monkey, but his class skills aren't particularly good, and a rogue would be an infinitely better choice. However, a soulknife 6/psywar 14 is an absurdly good combatant. you can allot some of the psywar bonus feats to boosting the usefulness of the soulknife features and still have plenty of feats to spare, but I digress.

FMArthur
2008-08-17, 01:30 AM
I don't think anyone mentions Marshal ever, unless it's about putting one in service of some other class. I kind of wonder what a party made entirely of Marshals boosting each other would be like, though. I could imagine an actually impressive party-wide attack bonus from stacking major auras, with some okay bonuses from minor auras (possibly augmented with one member's Motivate Charisma). Still, the party would have zero class features to take advantage of to do anything other than swing a sword and continuously yell encouragement at one another.

EDIT: Actually, looking at the Grant Move Action class feature, the party could probably pull some pretty wacky shenanigans for to move around. A Yakety Sax moment, a few times a day.

arguskos
2008-08-17, 01:37 AM
Do Marshal auras stack? Cause, if so, that's pretty good actually...

-argus

FMArthur
2008-08-17, 01:38 AM
Crap, they don't. What useless freaking class. If they did stack, at 2nd level they'd be giving a bonus of +4 to attack rolls. At 7th (huge gap :smallannoyed:), that would be +8. At 14th, +12. At level 20, they would be giving each other a bonus of +16 on all attack rolls. I don't know if that's good or not, because I've never played at that level (and don't really want to).

Aquillion
2008-08-17, 02:38 AM
On another note I've always wondered what makes the Archivist so badly broken... simply because all a DM has to do is just not make spells availible. A simple fix lost on too many for all balancing casting classes that one. To me the most annoying thing about the Archivist is that it rather undermines the nature of devotion if used in any of the established settings where you can worship "ideals" or the like.That doesn't really work for any other casting class. Per RAW, wizards get 2 guaranteed spells / level and can research any spell the want. Many other casting classes simply get access to their whole spell list, or get to take all the spells they'll ever get from their full spell list, without any DM input into the matter (beyond the universal "DM can invoke fiat on anything" rule, but that doesn't count for these discussions.) So it isn't "a simple fix lost on too many for all balancing casting classes"; it applies to the Archivist and only the Archivist. (Ok, it can keep the wizard down slightly, but you have to be really draconian, while refusing to allow meaningful research -- which goes against RAW -- and even then it doesn't really work. You can only have enemy spellbooks vanish in poofs of smoke so many times before it starts to look stupid.)

It works a bit better for Archivists, but they can still easily get any divine spell anyone else in the party can cast, without invoking any cheese. Depending on their alignment, they can also dominate enemy casters and get every spell they have access to, too... this isn't even that hard to justify with the archivist fluff (my character is just really insane about preserving old magics, to the point of tying casters who know obscure spells to chairs and making them cooperate as I write the damn spell down.)

Leon
2008-08-17, 10:57 AM
Ya, they are. They are -the- skill monkey

Particualy if you play a hadozee...


Small Rant
Im playing a Archivist atm and feeling a bit stunted as we've not come across Any Divine lore/scroll/etc what so ever (cept possibly once in a session i couldn"t goto) despite hinting that do the DMs this is why i wanted to play this class.

Not had Downtime to research anything as well - the only ones who get down time are the DMs Pcs when they are not playing

So Yes Archivists can be powerful but only if your DM(s) work with you

With many of the other classes mentioned i think i boils down to the over fascination with Optimizing the heck out of things and some classes just dont suit that type of play but are still valid choices for a person to choose as a Concepts base.

Some people dont look outside of Core, im running a 8 person IK game and have 2 Cleric's, 2 Fighters, 1 Wizard, 1 ranger (IK ranger). the other 2 are an Arcane mechanik and a Gun mage as they both decided to if they were going to play a FMF game they may aswell get into a class that was in its theme, ive been trying to promote the use of other classes from the various books.

While there is nothing wrong with any of those classes i my self like to think outside of the Core box and run with variants on the original classes (current Fav being the Thug variant for Fighter - suits a Five Fingers based PC great)

I play a Druid that is so far from what a "Core" druid is like that in the concept stages i had on these boards people questioned how it still could be a druid without the big 2 class features (Wildshape & Companion)

The Spirit Shaman is a Awesome class, if anything happens to the Archivist (again, one reincarnation was enough) a Shapeshift Druid or Spirit Shaman is on the books. Shapeshift as i find it a great alternative to the cumbersome mess that is Wildshape and Spirit Shaman for Party Support Focused caster with a offensive tang (particulay since i can draw heavliy from WoW for Shaman idea's)




Spirit Shaman I if you want a divine caster without the animal companion and wild shape, why the heck wouldn't you play a cleric? Clerics get domain powers, free cure spells, turning attempts to trade in for "I Win" buttons, and oh, hey... Divine Power.

Yes you could play a Cleric but then you would lose out on the great spell list that druids have, the may not have the Other things that a Cleric can offer but if you are after a Divine Blaster type then a Druidic Spell list is going to provide a great range options


x
I really, realThe only thing is, that even that is not enough to compensate for the lack of Wild Shape..
Full caster = Enough Compensation

I Don't like Samurai (or any Oriental theme class) irregardless of the class mechanics or not.

Never been a fan of the half casters, its ethier spells from the get go or not at all (hence why i play Spelless rangers)

Knight, its got a mix of abilities that are trying to make it several things and it falls short of all of them. the chivaraly type is better covered by a couple of PrCs

Hex Blade: Half caster but darkly interesting


Warmage. gets a lot of flak, it is the Subset of the Sorcerer (same as Beguiler and Dread Necro) thats focused heavily on the Blasty side of the list without allowing for much choice in non combat spells

Favored Soul is ok, the Divine Sorcerer

Healer: Never seen it

Scout: its ok, making the ranger go highly mobile and blend a bit of rogue in

Spellthief: weird half caster...

Marshall - never seen the class so i cant say much
Dragon Shaman - trying to sqeeze more out of the & Dragons side of it and being rather bland at it

Jimp
2008-08-17, 11:17 AM
Still, the party would have zero class features to take advantage of to do anything other than swing a sword and continuously yell encouragement at one another.


That sounds hilarious. Cue an all-marshal game :smallbiggrin:.

Zeta Kai
2008-08-17, 11:23 AM
Particualy if you play a hadozee...

Wouldn't they be a skill ape? :smalltongue:

Leon
2008-08-17, 11:51 AM
Wouldn't they be a skill ape? :smalltongue:

well yes.

Hmm, Hadozee + Archivist = The Librarian. wanders off to think some more....

Falrin
2008-08-17, 12:17 PM
Foun this old list on Wizards:

http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-369436.html

*= not enough responses to mean much
D= highly debated - the ranks were widespread
C= consensus – the ranks were often the same

Rated on a scale of ten:


9.4 Druid C
8.6 Wizard C
8.6 Cleric
8.6 Artificer *C
8.1 Psion C
7.7 Wu Jen * C
7.5 Psychic Warrior
7.5 Favoured Soul
7.4 Spirit Shaman D
6.6 Shugenja
6.5 Warmage
6.4 Sorc D
6.2 Warlock
5.9 Rogue
5.8 Barbarian
5.6 Wilder*
5.4 Monk
5.5 Scout
5.2 Ranger C
5.0 Paladin C
4.7 Bard D!!!!!
4.1 Ninja
4.2 Hexblade,
4.0 Marshal
3.8 Spellthief *
3.7 Swashbuckler D
3.5 Fighter
2.4 Samurai C

2.4 Soulknife C

1.5 Healer C

Chronos
2008-08-17, 12:57 PM
Small Rant
Im playing a Archivist atm and feeling a bit stunted as we've not come across Any Divine lore/scroll/etc what so ever (cept possibly once in a session i couldn"t goto) despite hinting that do the DMs this is why i wanted to play this class.

Not had Downtime to research anything as well - the only ones who get down time are the DMs Pcs when they are not playingEven assuming that everything else is core-only, to limit an archivist this way, you have to either never give the character even a single day of downtime (which is unrealistic), or you have to say that adepts, druids, rangers, and paladins just don't exist in the world. Because if they exist, and if you have a day of downtime, you can get spells from them.

Let's say you want to learn Polymorph, for instance: You find an adept somewhere, and convince him to help you (this may involve diplomacy, intimidation, magical compulsion, monetary payment, or whatever). You sit down with him for a day, and together, the two of you scribe a scroll of Polymorph. You can do this, because casters are allowed to collaborate to make a magic item, as long as they have all of the prerequisites covered by one or the other. In this case, the adept has access to the spell, and the archivist has the Scribe Scroll feat. Now you have a divine scroll of Polymorph, and you proceed to transcribe it into your book.

Prophaniti
2008-08-17, 12:59 PM
I Don't like Samurai (or any Oriental theme class) irregardless of the class mechanics or not.Just so you know, you lost big points for that. Right up there with signaling to go straight at an off-set intersection in my book of "things people do that bug me".

On topic, I'd agree with earlier posts, in that boards and online communities, indeed people in general, usually discuss the extremes. Those classes in the middle are exactly that. They're moderate, lukwarm, flavorful, but not memorably so. Personally, I disagree with a lot of what people say online, about any class, since it all stems from thought excercise and RAW, which are rarely fully applicable in a game that involves actual people. In my experience, the Psion is the most consistently overpowered class in our games, since you can get a great deal of the wizard's theoretical power without a lot of cheese or bookkeeping.

I also feel Healer is severely underrated. When we found that class, we used it extensively and it took a campaign where no one wanted to run one and we didn't have hirelings or cohorts to get us to venture outside without him hovering near.

Leon
2008-08-17, 09:11 PM
if you have a day of downtime.

Down time per say is typicaly spent in some back water place that doesn't have any of said divine casters present, when we are back in Venice its generaly only long enough to check in, recover and then head out on our next task.

I know how it works and what to do - I'll be mooching off the 2 rangers and the paladin once i can but they are not really what im interested in - its Druidic magic that i thirst for (im not aware that Adepts are even existing in this setting)


Edit: i have found out that i will be getting some downtime - the Demi lich we found is willing to cure the affliction in exchange for letting him experiment on the Archivist and i can learn from him while we await the turn of the moon



Just so you know, you lost big points for that. Right up there with signaling to go straight at an off-set intersection in my book of "things people do that bug me".


Meh