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Erk
2008-08-15, 06:41 PM
I'm trying to fluff these powers to be believable. Any suggestions?

Figher l7e: Come and Get It (p80)
What forces the enemies to shift next to the fighter? I can't imagine any reason a, say, controller would come waltzing into the fighter's reach, no matter how hard he bellows. In fact I can only imagine this ability working on Brute type enemies as described. Any suggestions?

Warrior's Urging (p85)
Same as above. By this level it's easier to brush it off as an almost magical effect, such as the fighter smashing the ground hard enough to shake monsters closer to him or something ridiculous like that. Maybe.

An additional problem is that the enemies don't seem to get any type of save, as the attack isn't even rolled until after they have moved. I could understand if the fighter first had to make an attack, say an Intimidate roll vs. Will. Any suggestions for how to fluff this or should I just house-rule in something?

OneFamiliarFace
2008-08-15, 07:14 PM
Yeah, that is a rough one actually. I'm surprised no one has brought this up yet, as it is one of the more quote "unrealistic" abilities, especially since it is more or less listed as non-magical.

I would first ask your player what he wants it to be (or yourself if you are the fighter). Reading, I kind of think stomping the ground is bad-ass. But it could be as simple as, "The Figher IS the King of the Hill," and he can taunt/show-off/bellow in a way that puts fire in his enemies' veins. Even if they aren't normally predisposed, they feel that they must take a chunk out of him, and feel themselves doing it. Only too late do they realize the error of their ways.

I would say, if you really need a houserule to make it make more sense, you could merely add a descriptor to the ability, but keep in mind that in most cases that makes it worse. For example, in the "fire in the enemies' veins" example, it would become a charm effect (because it is akin to compulsion), but then this would make it ineffective against certain bad dudes.

AstralFire
2008-08-15, 07:17 PM
Yeah, I think the only way to handle that one is to just keep your options open on how he does it, as appropriate to the situation. But that one is hard.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-15, 08:35 PM
Nah, this is totally action-hero stuff. These are, what, Paragon level powers? At least high Heroic (too lazy to check) - by this point, the fighter is literally enough of a badass to say "You think you can take me? Bring it on!"

Alternatively, for the more "subtle" fighter, it can be part of a clever gambit. The fighter fakes a stumble, or looks like he's badly wounded, encouraging the nearby enemies to rush in for the kill. Sure, it doesn't work under "standard mechanics" but you're using fluff, so why not get creative? :smallbiggrin:

Erk
2008-08-15, 09:39 PM
Nah, this is totally action-hero stuff. These are, what, Paragon level powers? At least high Heroic (too lazy to check) - by this point, the fighter is literally enough of a badass to say "You think you can take me? Bring it on!"Come and Get It is 7th level. Not even close to high enough; and besides, like I said, I can only see that working against Brutes and possibly soldiers. No caster or artillery, no matter how badass the fighter is, is going to respond by charging him and trying to hit him with a stick. In fact, a more badass fighter should provoke an even more "run the heck away and blast from afar" response from those kinds of creatures. I just don't buy that fluff.


Alternatively, for the more "subtle" fighter, it can be part of a clever gambit. The fighter fakes a stumble, or looks like he's badly wounded, encouraging the nearby enemies to rush in for the kill. Sure, it doesn't work under "standard mechanics" but you're using fluff, so why not get creative? :smallbiggrin:My friend suggested the same thing, and it works a bit more for lurkers and skirmishers and the like, but still doesn't make sense for casters and artillery, who are equally affected; they are the big problem with this feat. An artillery foe who saw the fighter feint an opening would take the chance to put an arrow through his eye, not charge up and smack him in the face with the bow.

Mewtarthio
2008-08-15, 09:49 PM
He is so tough that flexing his muscles really hard creates a small gravity well.

Erk
2008-08-15, 10:41 PM
He is so tough that flexing his muscles really hard creates a small gravity well.

Already thought of it :elan: Most plausible so far except for the first part.

"Chuck Norris is so strong, when he flexes his muscles the Earth's orbit is shifted."

olentu
2008-08-15, 11:22 PM
Both Come and Get It and Warrior's Urging have been changed to pulls by the errata.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-16, 12:09 AM
Both Come and Get It and Warrior's Urging have been changed to pulls by the errata.

Doesn't help much, unless your fighter sprouts grappling hooks and shouts "Get over here!" :smallannoyed:

Yeah, I'm just not able to fluff it well. Actually, the best way to think of it might involve you moving about, and drawing in the fighters around you until you get them right where you want them.

bosssmiley
2008-08-16, 05:47 AM
I'm trying to fluff these powers to be believable. Any suggestions?

Figher l7e: Come and Get It (p80)
What forces the enemies to shift next to the fighter? I can't imagine any reason a, say, controller would come waltzing into the fighter's reach, no matter how hard he bellows. In fact I can only imagine this ability working on Brute type enemies as described. Any suggestions?

Going from the name and the effect I'd say it's pretty obvious that the fighter liberally smears himself in BBQ sauce. Everyone loves BBQ sauce. No exceptions. And no added magic required. :smallwink:

Myshlaevsky
2008-08-16, 07:14 AM
Doesn't help much, unless your fighter sprouts grappling hooks and shouts "Get over here!" :smallannoyed:

If I had a grappling hook, that's how I'd be fluffing it. That's awesome.

Sebastian
2008-08-16, 07:48 AM
Both Come and Get It and Warrior's Urging have been changed to pulls by the errata.

Even worse, now it works even on imobilized, stunned and asleep enemies.

anyway, that is 4e, either you come up with a description or ignore it altogether, you don't like this? Then you should't like 4e, because in a form or the other almost any power have the same problem.

Funkyodor
2008-08-16, 08:40 AM
No matter how smart an opponent is or how well thought out their tactics, everyone has a trigger that sets their minds aflame or piques thier interest. By observing an opponents race, stance, facial expressions, and combat mannerisms; you can target infuriating insults, compulsions, and flat out lies to lure enemies toward your location.

The always popular "I've got some candy, wanna see?" works wonders when surrounded by goblins for some reason...

Erk
2008-08-16, 10:58 AM
Even worse, now it works even on imobilized, stunned and asleep enemies.

anyway, that is 4e, either you come up with a description or ignore it altogether, you don't like this? Then you should't like 4e, because in a form or the other almost any power have the same problem.

I do like this. So far this is the only power that can't be easily fluffed for most situations. Please let's not turn this into a 4e like/dislike thread.

A "pull" is very slightly more fluffable, but it's hard to picture a level 7 fighter lunging and pulling up to ... well, a ton of enemies all within the space of a single combat action. Pull works for small groups, breaks down with large.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-16, 02:01 PM
I do like this. So far this is the only power that can't be easily fluffed for most situations. Please let's not turn this into a 4e like/dislike thread.

I concur. I like 4e myself, and it still isn't difficult to understand the difficulty the OP is having with this particular power.

Worse, I can't think of a serious suggestion at the moment. All I'm getting is images of a yellow and black-garbed ninja throwing a harpoon at the intended target and then yanking it close ...

CarpeGuitarrem
2008-08-16, 02:11 PM
Doesn't help much, unless your fighter sprouts grappling hooks and shouts "Get over here!" :smallannoyed:
Link's hookshot, perchance?

Morty
2008-08-16, 02:25 PM
Well, this exploit seems like a perfect way to use "Yo momma" insults during a session and tell GM that you're simply roleplaying.

Totally Guy
2008-08-16, 02:47 PM
The fighter bakes a delicious pie, pulls out a fake window cill and places the pie upon it. The enemies lift up into the air slightly and are pulled toward the aroma by the nose. The fighter then makes an attack whilst their noses guide them. EDIT: Maybe pheromones instead of the pie...

or

The fighter drops a remote with a big red button upon the ground that says "Do not press". The baddies see this remote and cannot resist pushing the big red button. On pressing the button a chandalier drops on the fighter but the fighter is ok as he's in the middle but all enemies adjacent are hit for 1[W] + Strength. EDIT: A fake valuable jewel instead of the button.

or

The fighter spins on the spot. The carpet he's standing on moves inward around his feet pulling the enemies closer to him. Then he sticks out his weapon, still spinning to hurt them all. If not on a carpet grass works just as well. Dungeon tiles and rock gain carpet-like properties until the end of the turn. EDIT: Carpet...

Knaight
2008-08-16, 03:35 PM
A fighter sticks his arm high in the air while ducking, twists his wrist, tons of grapnels on hooks shoot out, curving around and grabbing enemies, then he twists his wrist again and they are yanked spinning into them, dislodging at the last minute.

If inside though, use the carpet one. Thats just awesome.

Skyserpent
2008-08-16, 03:59 PM
I picture it more as something like...

"Your momma's so fat she can't even see her feats!"

Gavin Sage
2008-08-16, 04:20 PM
Any female fighter should be able to accomplish this with ease, at least against males.

Artanis
2008-08-16, 05:18 PM
"Hey! Hey you! I have a cake!"
"Ooh, cake?" *walks forward*
"THE CAKE IS A LIE!" *stab*

Arbitrarity
2008-08-16, 05:37 PM
Link's hookshot, perchance?

No, Another Game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpion_%28Mortal_Kombat%29)....

Brigham
2008-08-16, 05:56 PM
First, props for picking up on the peculiar operating order in these powers (Effect before attack- what?!). One of the goals in 4e (I could be wrong; I'm not an expert) is to encourage roll playing (in combat, at least). This can sometimes lead to/require some fudging of the flavor text supplied with combat powers. For instance, not every warlock's eldritch blast must be black in color.

Working from the mechanic descriptors (weapon damage, shifting effects, etc) come up with new fluff for the power. Ask "what would elicit this specific response from this particular opponent?"


I'm trying to fluff these powers to be believable. Any suggestions?

Figher l7e: Come and Get It (p80)
What forces the enemies to shift next to the fighter? I can't imagine any reason a, say, controller would come waltzing into the fighter's reach, no matter how hard he bellows. In fact I can only imagine this ability working on Brute type enemies as described. Any suggestions?

Play it as a feint. It's not so much that he calls out "come and get it" and everyone comes running it. I envision the fighter crouching down/assuming a meek stance, then all available enemies think "hey, free pie hit" and converge on the fighter who then springs into the attack. Similar to how an implosion creates a vacuum then expels everything violently outward.

Shade your strength and ability. lull them into security. strike fierce.

Erk
2008-08-17, 12:38 AM
Working from the mechanic descriptors (weapon damage, shifting effects, etc) come up with new fluff for the power. Ask "what would elicit this specific response from this particular opponent?"

Play it as a feint. It's not so much that he calls out "come and get it" and everyone comes running it. I envision the fighter crouching down/assuming a meek stance, then all available enemies think "hey, free pie hit" and converge on the fighter who then springs into the attack. Similar to how an implosion creates a vacuum then expels everything violently outward.

Shade your strength and ability. lull them into security. strike fierce.

Already suggested above, here was my answer:

...
My friend suggested the same thing, and it works a bit more for lurkers and skirmishers and the like, but still doesn't make sense for casters and artillery, who are equally affected; they are the big problem with this feat. An artillery foe who saw the fighter feint an opening would take the chance to put an arrow through his eye, not charge up and smack him in the face with the bow.
The skill is fluffable for any creature that has a strong melee presence, but it continues to make no sense for artillery and controllers, and a few others who are worthless in melee. More niggling than problematic is that it also doesn't allow a save, it's a flat-rate, so a Wis30 level 40 demigod is automatically taken in by the 7th level fighter's feint... but that's partly due to this odd ability having an effect with no attack roll, and I think that is an oversight.

Anyway. No feint, no matter how clever, should provoke a caster to come in and try to jab the fighter in the eye with its wand.

Incidentally, props to glug's carpet maneuvre. Though limited in where it can be used, that's the first one I can visualise. Nice!

Kompera
2008-08-17, 01:58 AM
More niggling than problematic is that it also doesn't allow a save, it's a flat-rate, so a Wis30 level 40 demigod is automatically taken in by the 7th level fighter's feint...Yeah, but doesn't the Fighter deserve what he's about to get?


Anyway. No feint, no matter how clever, should provoke a caster to come in and try to jab the fighter in the eye with its wand.

Incidentally, props to glug's carpet maneuvre. Though limited in where it can be used, that's the first one I can visualise. Nice!It's tough to justify, true. No brilliant caster/artillery would bother to take a melee swing. Perhaps they just get closer to 'make sure' of their next spell/arrow? And perhaps not all casters/artillery are always brilliant under every situation. In combat everyone doesn't always react as you might expect when looking at the situation from the perspective of someone who is not in combat.

I also appreciate the spinning-carpet-pull maneuver. :smalltongue:

MartinHarper
2008-08-17, 05:56 AM
I'm trying to fluff these powers to be believable. Any suggestions?

Hypnotism. Over the course of the battle, the fighter has been waving her sword about in a subtly rhythmic manner, as she uses it to hack and slash at the enemy. Slowly, her enemies fall under her spell. When the moment is right, she intones "come and get it" in a calm, powerful voice, and they cannot help but respond. Her ensuing whirlwind attack breaks the spell, and also a few bones.

Alternatively, magic. Maybe the fighter learned some tricks from the party warlock, or she slept with a siren, or she got buffed by a ritual or drank a potion during downtime, or she picked up a magic item, or her ancestral sword has manifested a new power as she has become more powerful.

I also like grappling hooks, particularly for a Warforged Fighter.

Yakk
2008-08-17, 12:08 PM
Come and Get It:
The Fighter actually moves during this power, but in such a way that nobody can exploit it.

Creatures can choose not to follow the fighter back to the initial location, but that results in an additional free 3[W]+Str critical hit by the fighter above and beyond the attack from this power, as they leave themselves open.

In short: it results in the enemies moving to the fighter of their own free will -- but not moving in makes it even worse.

Prophaniti
2008-08-17, 12:47 PM
Geez, read the 4e-serious business thread and then jump to this one. I wonder where all those acusations of silliness come from?:smallamused:

The best explanation I can think of for the power working on someone who would not normally approach to melee would simply be taunting that hit the right button coupled with anger blinding common sense on the part of the victim. Common enough, both in reality and in books and stories. Not a perfect explanation, but maybe it'll help a little.

CarpeGuitarrem
2008-08-17, 12:51 PM
No, Another Game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpion_%28Mortal_Kombat%29)....
Oh, yeah, I knew about MK. Link's hookshot is, like, the younger cousin of Scorpion.

Gralamin
2008-08-17, 12:59 PM
Pull it off with fluff similiar to that of Own The Battlefield (Warlord 22). Own the Battlefield is simply the warlord using a variety of brilliant tactics through out the battle to force the enemies exactly where he wants them. Similarly, you could flavor these as a false assault that forces the enemy closer to you (by say, throwing a cask of alchemist's fire behind the enemy, causing them to dodge towards you.) Just think of a tactic that could force the enemy to move, and flavor it as that.

DMfromTheAbyss
2008-08-17, 04:10 PM
I agree that these powers are difficult to describe for all possible targets. The problems are particularly with the ranged attackers and wizards (artillery and controllers) who usually don't or wouldn't melee attack in the first place. Also mindless attackers (golems and oozes) would be difficult to describe as simply insulting them would be inneffective in the extreme.

Basically you have to tailor the description to the specific instance. Maybe an insulting jibe that gets the wizard peeved in just the right way could work, overwhelming his common sense, Maybe an opening that an archer could only take advantage of from short range. Maybe shear strength of personality overwhealms their good sense. Physically drawing them in for some targets makes a certain amount of sense in some situations.

I've seen something similar in real life while playing street hockey with a penalty shot. Basically take your average nerd (Hi Kevin no insult intended) and stick him in goal. He's facing the alpha center (hi Eric). Now just by Flailing madly and staying in the net he has a decent (well better) chance of blocking the shot (and he knows and has been told this when we stuck him in the goaly position). So the Center rushes up then stops 18 feet from the goal and begins slowly playing with the puck (hockey ball) and says in a calm voice "Can you feel the fear welling up inside you?" The Goaly hesitates for one second a look of horror on his face before charging screaming out to meet him.

Afterwards we asked him and he said it was like he could feel this aweful tension. It was the dumbest thing to do given the situation, he knew he shouldn't, but he did anyway. And this is from the smartest guy in my high school class for reference. (if he had a class it was Wizard brilliant but bad at sports/coordination) If that sort of psychological ploy can work in real life, I have no problem with it in game. They may not even understand why they do it. But that sort of thing could happen in a "combat" situation where tensions run high and sometimes you react in stupid ways counter to what you would logically choose to do.