[4e] Helpless

[Crow]

In the Player's Handbook, it says you can only perform a Coup de Grace on a helpless opponent. I've found the condition listing for "helpless" (It's a condition by itself now), but I can't seem to find a listing of in which situations a character would be considered helpless.

Can somebody point me in the right direction? Almost every situation in 3.x that would allow a coup de grace is covered by a specific condition now.

[fractic]

It says right there on page 277 that you are usually helpless because you're unconscious. It's also mentioned at the unconscious condition description.

[Crow]

Hmmmm, so that's it then.

Thanks.

[Dr Bwaa]

You are also helpless if you for whatever reason cannot move your body: you're Held or Paralyzed or some such, or Dominated (though why you would coup-de-grace someone you'd already Dominated, I don't know).

[Tsotha-lanti]

You are also helpless if you for whatever reason cannot move your body: you're Held or Paralyzed or some such, or Dominated (though why you would coup-de-grace someone you'd already Dominated, I don't know).

Held? Paralyzed? I see no such conditions. Dominated characters definitely aren't helpless - they're dazed.

Looking at the listing on page 277, you're only helpless if you're unconscious. (You're also unconscious if you're dying, so you're helpless if you're dying.)

There's a few powers that can make someone unconscious (like sleep, notably). There may be rarer situations in the DMG or under specific monster powers or the like that make you helpless, but I know of no comprehensive listing.

[Dr Bwaa]

Look under the conditions themselves:

Hold Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/HoldPerson.htm) causes you to be paralyzed, which says in its description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#paralyzed) that it causes you to be helpless.

I don't know of a comprehensive listing either. That's why I said originally, as far as I know it's "whenever you can't cause your body to move, for whatever reason." Hence, paralyzed, and in the case of Dominated, I was insinuating that you can simply order the person to lie prone and perfectly still, as if under the effects of Hold Person: if they cannot help themselves, they are helpless, end of story.

I will say that it is one of the worst-documented status effects in D&D, though, and far worse in the 4E handbook. However, what it says is "usually you are helpless because you are unconcious," so there are obviously other ways as well: and for those, I assume the 3.5 rules for helplessness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless) still apply, unless someone knows of some errata that I don't.

EDIT: obviously those links are to the 3.5 SRD, especially Paralyzed, which does not even exist in the status effects section of 4e, unless I'm mistaken. Silly.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Look under the conditions themselves:

Hold Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/HoldPerson.htm) causes you to be paralyzed, which says in its description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#paralyzed) that it causes you to be helpless.

...

EDIT: obviously those links are to the 3.5 SRD, especially Paralyzed, which does not even exist in the status effects section of 4e, unless I'm mistaken. Silly.

Yeah, uh.

Yeah.

I guess you noticed this was about 4E, too, huh?

The only situation I can find, in 4E, where you would be helpless is when you're unconscious. There's no "paralyzed" condition, like I already said, and if you're dominated, you're dazed (and your actions are decided by your dominator).

Why the heck would 3.5 rules apply at all, ever, in any way? It's a whole different game with its own rules. The listing is explicit and covers all conditions - the only condition where you are helpless is when you're unconscious. Like I said, if some power specifically makes you helpless (applies the "helpless" condition to you), then it obviously does, but "paralysis" is usually slowed->immobilized or dazed->stunned.


Edit: Quickly skimming the Cleric and Wizard powers, I couldn't see one that makes a target helpless. There's several that amount to paralysis or otherwise completely immobilizing at target, but they impose the "immobilized" and or "stunned" conditions. Total paralysis would likely be "the target is immobilized and stunned", then.

It's obvious that getting a coup de grace is supposed to be a rare thing, mostly employed against dying PCs by really nasty monsters, but sleep can still grant it to PCs. Daily Wizard attack 1, affects each creature in a burst 2, if they're hit and fail a save against a slow effect they become unconscious, which a save also ends.

[Covered In Bees]

Well, if your head is on the executioner's chopping block and you can't break your bonds, you're Helpless.

If you're bound in chains from head to neck, you're Helpless.

If a powerful arcane force has separated your mind from your body, leaving you able to perceive but not act? Helpless.


But usually, it's when you're unconscious.


Are you guys gonna need Dead defined explicitly, too?

[Dr Bwaa]

Thank you, Mr. Bees, for stating even more explicitly what I thought I had already covered.

Tsotha-lanti, I wasn't applying 3.5 rules, I was using them to fill a hole in the rules. Or do you mean to tell me that in 4E, if you break your neck you're not paralyzed, since that condition doesn't explicitly exist?

It's just like it's always been: it's up to the DM, and the players, to use some common sense: if you're helpless you're helpless, the end.

[Crow]

Well, if your head is on the executioner's chopping block and you can't break your bonds, you're Helpless.

If you're bound in chains from head to neck, you're Helpless.

No, I think that falls under restrained. :smallwink:

[Tsotha-lanti]

Tsotha-lanti, I wasn't applying 3.5 rules, I was using them to fill a hole in the rules. Or do you mean to tell me that in 4E, if you break your neck you're not paralyzed, since that condition doesn't explicitly exist?

"Use" and "apply" are synonyms. Using them is applying them.

How would 3.5 rules have any relevance to 4E? Seriously. I could just as well apply RuneQuest rules, or AD&D rules, or BESM rules, or Rolemaster rules... There's no connection, no relevance. There are no "held" or "paralyzed" conditions. If your character is paralyzed from, say, the neck down, that is not a "paralyzed" condition. (You'd presumably be permanently "immobilized", instead, and unable to take any actions requiring the use of hands, like attacking. Just like with powers, not everything needs to be covered with conditions - special and specific statements can do it better.)

There's no hole in the rules here, really. The rules are pretty clear and explicit. The only thing that's "missing" is some kind of meta-index of the PHB, DMG and MM, that would list every power, item, and other situation that can apply a specific condition.

Seguing to ...


No, I think that falls under restrained. :smallwink:

... as well as CIB's comments, I'm not sure I'd actually apply the conditions anywhere, ever, out of combat. 4E, specifically, feels like a game where situations that aren't combat don't need to apply the rules for combat at all. You're bound and chained, your head on the headsman's block? You're not "helpless", and the executioner isn't going to make a coup de grace - if nothing happens to stop the situation, the axe or sword comes down and you're just dead, no damage or attack rolls. That's a story situation, not a rules situation. (If you're sleeping in your bed and an assassin sneaks in to kill you, you may be helpless and the attacker may make a coup de grace. It's fairer to the player, and waking up just in time to catch an assassin's knife in your bicep instead of your heart is very action-hero.)

And yes, I'm not too sure being bound and the like would fall under "helpless" in combat, either. Looking at precedents, being frozen in ice isn't "helpless", etc. Unconscious, asleep, dying - that's "helpless".

[Yakk]

I'd say that using examples from other games as a reasonable way to use a condition isn't a bad idea.

If some bad guy had a hold person style ability that paralyzed you, you could go with immobilized or with helpless or both as your condition state.

By leaving it separate than unconscious, you get the ability to tack it on elsewhere that it would make sense.

Note that they really need to have split unconscious into three instead of two states -- one where you are unconscious from wounds, one where you are sleeping (and can be awoken by any loud noise, etc), and another where you are in forced sleep (where you can be awoken by damage).

[Kiara LeSabre]

Edit: Quickly skimming the Cleric and Wizard powers, I couldn't see one that makes a target helpless.

Sleep, level 2 wizard daily. Notably, it's one of the only level 2 dailies that can potentially remain relevant your entire career.

Rogues have two powers that can render an opponent helpless: Knockout and Garrote Grip. Coincidentally, it's especially bad to suffer a coup de grace delivered by a rogue.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I think that this is one case where you may just want to forget about RAW, and apply a reasonable definition.

[Dhavaer]

Sleep, level 2 wizard daily. Notably, it's one of the only level 2 dailies that can potentially remain relevant your entire career.

Level 1 daily. A level 2 daily would be a utility power.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Knockout (Rogue 9)
Garrotte Grip (Rogue 15)


"You're bound and chained, your head on the headsman's block? You're not "helpless", and the executioner isn't going to make a coup de grace - if nothing happens to stop the situation, the axe or sword comes down and you're just dead, no damage or attack rolls.

Skill challenge:
Bluff: You convince the axe that you are somewhere else until the executioner gives up.
Intimidate: You make the axe afraid of you.
Acrobatics: You spin your ears so fast that the wind blows the axe away.
Endurance: You tire the axe with your thick skull.
...

[Siegel]

Knockout (Rogue 9)
Garrotte Grip (Rogue 15)



Skill challenge:
Bluff: You convince the axe that you are somewhere else until the executioner gives up.
Intimidate: You make the axe afraid of you.
Acrobatics: You spin your ears so fast that the wind blows the axe away.
Endurance: You tire the axe with your thick skull.
...

Religion - Your gods don't want that

[Kiara LeSabre]

Level 1 daily. A level 2 daily would be a utility power.

You're right. My mistake. :smalltongue:

[Frownbear]

Knockout (Rogue 9)
Garrotte Grip (Rogue 15)



Skill challenge:
Bluff: You convince the axe that you are somewhere else until the executioner gives up.
Intimidate: You make the axe afraid of you.
Acrobatics: You spin your ears so fast that the wind blows the axe away.
Endurance: You tire the axe with your thick skull.
...

For once I'd miss the Perform skill!

"Perform: Na, na na na, na na na... can't touch this!"

[Tsotha-lanti]

Sleep, level 2 wizard daily. Notably, it's one of the only level 2 dailies that can potentially remain relevant your entire career.

Rogues have two powers that can render an opponent helpless: Knockout and Garrote Grip. Coincidentally, it's especially bad to suffer a coup de grace delivered by a rogue.

I mentioned sleep twice already...

Excellent catch on the rogue powers, though - makes sense they'd have them, too.