OOTS #585 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Ryuuk]

Yeah, V's really lost it now, trying to apply common sense to a fantasy setting and all.

[IM@work]

V going to finally be forced into cooperation with her party! nice.

[Lissou]

I feel sorry for V, but at least he's just as cool as usual ^^

[Kyeudo]

I think V just killed a catgirl.

[SolkaTruesilver]

V will always be his worst impediment toward absolute Arcane Power.

(Think of the XP won if he had single-handely banished the Demon..)

[Winged One]

...I think Banishment only lets you use something you actually have for an optional focus, and V just attacked an enormous devil and expected it to be a cakewalk.:smalltongue:

Also, I think V is turning evil. I mention it now because of V comparing V to a devil in this chapter, but V has been acting really callous towards everybody since V's defeat at Azure City as well.
SCREW PRONOUNS!:smallwink:

[Marlowe]

V takes a hit and DOESN'T get knocked out?

EDIT: "I want all mortals on the island dead". So, let's leave the island maybe? Rather quickly.

Also, Quar just officially threw Therkla to the wolves. I wonder if she heard that.

[Vossik]

I don't have much to say but,
I think this might be the being V has four words to say to.

[Child Conscript]

"But I had three kings showing"
new fav quote

[SPoD]

V takes a hit and DOESN'T get knocked out?

Durkon cast Mass Bear's Endurance on everyone in panel #5. That's 26-28 extra hit points right there.

[WarriorTribble]

I do believe lack of sleep (or it's equivilant) is driving our neurotic elf insane...

[Tempest Fennac]

To be fair, was V ever really sane to begin with?

[teratorn]

Durkon cast Mass Bear's Endurance on everyone in panel #5. That's 26-28 extra hit points right there.

Now, how did I miss that? thanks...

[Ganurath]

A wizard entering melee range of a beefy demon and monologuing... What common sense?

[Tempest Fennac]

That is a good point, Ganurath. The problem is that Banish is only a Close Range spell, and I'm guessing V doesn't have a Metamagic Enlarge rod.

[Nerd_Paladin]

I hope V sleeps soon, her gruesome mug is really creeping me out. Also, shouldn't she run out of spells soon, since the comic is still running on Vancian 3.5 magic, where Wizards are really sleepy and forgetful?

[SPoD]

A wizard entering melee range of a beefy demon and monologuing... What common sense?

I'm pretty sure that's the exact point of this comic. V's faculties have been ravaged by his/her lack of trancing, so much so that he/she is incapable of even realizing that his/her faculties have been ravaged at all.

[Aethir]

I was kinda hoping V would get ko'd by the hit just like Durkon. Hasn't anyone told V that no sleep = poor thought process meaning less effectiveness in figuring out a solution?

[RandomPlayer]

I hope V sleeps soon, her gruesome mug is really creeping me out. Also, shouldn't she run out of spells soon, since the comic is still running on Vancian 3.5 magic, where Wizards are really sleepy and forgetful?
You don't need to sleep (or in V's case, trance) to study spells.

Also, minor art nitpick: Qarr's cut seems to be from his left shoulder to his right hip (vaguely) through comic 584, except in the last panel - though his body turns, his right shoulder is still his right and his left is still his left - yet the cut reverses to angle from his right shoulder to his left hip. Similarly, in the last panel he's seen in in comic 585, the same reverse was made.

[bentheiii]

maybe people know this by now but...

in the the strip before- the demon thing was next to about 10+ boats, probably with catapult in most- I think that makes it a fair fight




also: no sleep and no belker-booming make V something-something:smallbiggrin:

[Tempest Fennac]

To make spoiler tags, but the text you want to hide between [ spoiler] and [ /spoiler] while taking the spaces out. Would te catapults be hindered by DR, though?

[Nevitan]

AWW come on that should of worked... I think Mr.Burlew is just a really mean DM. If its funny enough to people watching from a safe distance... then it should work.:smallamused:

[Blackdrop]

Hinjo seems to be taking over Roy's role fairly well. He's even calling Vaarsuvius, V.

[Grokvar]

Oooh,:smalleek: that didn't go too well. V looks really messed up. I hope this goes better in the next strip.

[Lerky]

and the giant says he never posts at midnight:smalltongue:

[Mercenary Pen]

V's in a pretty bad way, so presumably one of the other casters will have to step up to the plate...

Which means, either Durkon or Elan... okay, it means Durkon

[bentheiii]

Would te catapults be hindered by DR, though?

probably not- according to Heros of Battle (D&D book about warfare) the least damaging siege engine deals 2d6 damage and the most 14d6. my moneys on somthing of about 7-5d6 which is an avrage of 15-21 damage from one catapult!(and to make that usless you need one hell of a DR)

[zzyss]

Hi Giant... you forgot to change the number at the top of the strip - it's obscured by speech bubbles, but you can pretty clearly tell that it says 584 instead of 585...

Great strip, although I don't get Durkon's comment about Mass Bear's Endurance?

[Tempest Fennac]

I've not seen that book. Thanks for explaining.:smallsmile: (I don't think thre's anything with more then DR 15, is there?

[FrankNorman]

This should settle that debate as to whether that oversized fiend is a "devil" or a "demon". Keeping a promise even when doing so involves doing something seriously injurious to your dignity is certainly a "Lawful" action.
(I love the way the monsters eyes change shape from "evil half-moon" to the expression they have when he says "Aww!" )

Some might point out that Qaar is calling in the big monster's gambling debt; aren't games of chance "Chaotic"? Not really an argument. Its obvious by now that moral standards in Rich's invented cosmos are somewhat on the libertine side. "One night stands" are considered okey-dokey there even in Celestia! So why shouldn't poker be perfectly legal in the Nine Hells?

Funny - I'd been meaning to post in response to the previous episode, that Qaar had realised how badly he'd messed up by revealing his involvement to Lien, (when he openly orders that Orc-chieftain to have them all killed) and was acting like a gambler whose response to a loss was to make a bigger bet next round. And by summoning that big whatever-it-is, he'd "pushed all his remaining chips across the table".

[OmegaDonut]

The number at the top of the comic is still #584... though it's hard to see because big red thing's speech bubble is obscuring the 4.

[bentheiii]

and frankly-
I don't think the demon/devil thing was going to attack at all- it didn't even seem angy or even hostile to them, that hand that slapped V' was probably to say hello

[Red XIV]

I hope V sleeps soon
Not going to happen. Elf, remember?

He/she/it needs a good trance soon, though.

[David Argall]

and the giant says he never posts at midnight:smalltongue:

It says right on the post that he didn't. It was 11:25

[Bitzeralisis]

I just realized just how ew Vaarsuvius looks. :smallyuk:

[jerichodrumm]

Great strip, although I don't get Durkon's comment about Mass Bear's Endurance?

Uh..what is there to get? It was the spell...

[Angela Christine]

Also, I think V is turning evil. I mention it now because of V comparing V to a devil in this chapter, but V has been acting really callous towards everybody since V's defeat at Azure City as well.


Actually, I was just thinking that V is showing a lot more loyalty and concern for the Order than I would have expected. Definitely not evil. Roy is dead, Haley and Belkar are MiA for several months and possibly dead, yet she is literally working herself ragged trying to make contact with them. She has been trapped on a boat with Elan, Durkon, some paladins and a bunch of refugees for a long time and that has to be pretty unpleasant for her (maybe she can't trance/rest properly under those conditions?) I would have expected that with the leader dead (and his body lost) and the party all but disbanded, she would cut her losses and move on. Why stay on a ship of fools?


I wonder who she is so eager to reunite with. She has some respect for Roy. She has usually gotten along pretty well with Miss Starshine. But could it be Belkar that her heart is longing for? :smalltongue:

[lord_khaine]

i find it nice to see the order is just as confused about the identity of the unknown outsider as i am :smallsmile:

[Trizap]

ok, can V get some kind of rest soon? he is starting to lose it

[Halvormerlinaky]

"Really? It seems less 'angry' and more... 'mildly put out'."

Pure win, Giant.

Methinks someone's been reading his Pratchett lately.

And I do believe I called that knocking out comment last episode.

[Kaytara]

Nice developments. I was kind of hoping for a double page of action, but maybe we'll get that next update. This was great. :D

This shows just how desperate V is to gain XP and therefore power. A valid tactic would have been allowing the teammates to distract the devil, then approaching and banishing it when its attention is elsewhere. But then, the XP gain would have been split at least five ways. Flying straight up to a devil that is watching you and explaining how you're going to banish it is pretty reckless, and obviously V was willing to take that chance, as gaining a new level is probably the only thing that could help his attempts to contact Haley at this point.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that V only cares about arcane power, it's just personally frustrating him to be feeling his own limits that sharply. Maybe his attempt to banish the devil single-handedly also stems from a drop in his self-esteem and a need to prove it to himself (and to others, as well, remember the failed bird experiment he'd been so sure would work?) that he's not useless.

Also, as it has been mentioned, the group knows absolutely nothing about what happened to Haley. They don't even know if she safely returned from retrieving Roy's body. For all they know, she might be lying dead under a mass of rubble or being held prisoner in Xykon's tower. With this in mind, it's completely understandable why V is unwilling to be distracted by petty side quests, since he feels that every second is precious.

And finally, Vaarsuvius is under a great deal of stress. He's the only one in the entire fleet who can be expected to come up with a solution to their problem, and his two teammates are proving anything but helpful. V has a clear strategy in mind, namely becoming powerful enough to contact Haley. Durkon has been complaining that it's getting them nowhere but hasn't been able to contribute himself.

Note that at the end of this page, he still wants to take on the devil on his own. "Remain here..."

[eilandesq]

IIRC, generally PCs don't get XP for defeating summoned monsters, as the fact that a monster can summon help is accounted for in its challenge rating. However, since imps don't *have* summoning ability, and the Big Guy's presence is apparently due to a abnormal circumstance (abysmal poker skills, in this case), I'd certainly award full XP for the kill if they manage it.

[Neopolis]

(I love the way the monsters eyes change shape from "evil half-moon" to the expression they have when he says "Aww!" )
Similar to the first appearance of a certain other characer! :mitd:

[Crinos]

Similar to the first appearance of a certain other characer! :mitd:

Hey, Maybe that's what the MITD is; some sort of demon or devil that was kicked out of the lower planes for being too nice.

...except that it doesn't have the black and red speech bubbles.

Huh.

Nevermind.

[Fern tree]

Yeah, V's really lost it now, trying to apply common sense to a fantasy setting and all.

Subtle reference to the flight of the dragons (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083951/taglines)?

Hello everybody. This is my first post, but I am being following OOTS for many months.:smallbiggrin:

[Otempora]

Well, I'm pretty sure something really bad is going to happen to V soon. Between the lack of trancing and his/her ego, s/he is going to get hurt.

[ref]

Hmm, things haven't started well, granted. But it's not how things start, it's how they end. So let's keep trying. But V, please, let someone else try and trance!

[Ossian]

I wonder who she is so eager to reunite with. She has some respect for Roy. She has usually gotten along pretty well with Miss Starshine. But could it be Belkar that her heart is longing for? :smalltongue:

;) Perhaps it is just her shattered ego...After all, she/he is supposed to be all knowing and infallible. More obstination than loyalty, I take it.

O.

[Coke_Can64]

Nice one Giant!

And am I the only one that saw this as a Take That (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TakeThat) moment? Like everybody saying "V is gonna fire off a banish" AND "V needs to be knocked out" AND The Giant makes it perfectly coherent to anybody reading who doesn't look at the forums.

You go guy! :smallbiggrin:

[OverUsedChewToy]

Mayhaps we will see V make a deal with the devil, literally? Is V desperate enough for power to do that?

[HUMVEE Driver]

I'm guessing V doesn't have a Metamagic Enlarge rod.


Sheesh, couldn't you have just said "I think V is female"?

[Tempest Fennac]

No, I was refering to the fact that magic items are apparently rare in the OotS world, and that item would allow V to cast it at a greater distance (admittedly, the Sudden version of the feat would have worked, but the normal Enlarge Spell wouldn't work due to V apparently being limited to being able to use level 7 spell slots.

[Mauve Shirt]

Heehee. He's just mildly put out!

[AstralFire]

I don't get V's last line. Like, I can't parse it.

[Zephra]

@^ :vaarsuvius: is it scarred of unwanted advice etc.? if so, that yes, you guys can definitely help me when I banish it the second try.

[Prowl]

I don't get V's last line. Like, I can't parse it.

V is expressing his disdain for the unsolicited and unwanted comments from Durkon and Elan. Note that something the demon hates would aid in its banishment... so if the demon also hates unhelpful snarky comments then the other two could fulfill that requirement and ease the process of banishment.

TL:DR version - that's V's way of saying "STFU".

[Blaznak]

I wonder what the duration on the summoning is. I mean, I dont' think big red gets to stay in the Prime Material for ever. That would make running in sheer terror actually a viable plan. You know, use up its time chasing everyone around until it goes bye bye. Dunno...

[Zolem]

I think V just killed a catgirl.

NOOOO oh wait, catgirl not cat? Nevermind.


V is expressing his disdain for the unsolicited and unwanted comments from Durkon and Elan. Note that something the demon hates would aid in its banishment... so if the demon also hates unhelpful snarky comments then the other two could fulfill that requirement and ease the process of banishment.

TL:DR version - that's V's way of saying "STFU".

At this point I'd ask the court wizard to develop a Trance spell, since elves don't sleep, make it have no will save, and cast it on V and get her some 'sleep' already!

[AstralFire]

Ah, thank you. I was missing that all the 'it's were pointed at the demon/devil/whatever it is. (I don't actually remember which one is which.)

[Deepkicker]

Ha ha! How did Quarr play cards with that thing?

[hamishspence]

Now we know it was not summoned by Qarr's summoning abilities, but by Qaar calling in a favour, I wonder how that favour was called in? Message to other plane, Big Red uses plane shift, or arranges for another fiend to send him?

[lemonhoney]

Silly V, that wasn't very likely to work. (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=020529)

[Scarblade]

I wonder what possibilities Qaar have in mind, maybe he's going to threaten someone.

[HOLEkevin]

I wonder what possibilities Qaar have in mind, maybe he's going to threaten someone.

Maybe. Maybe he's just going to keep knocking Varsuvius all over the island until he kills everyone else with the wizard's body.

[MyrddinDerwydd]

It looks rather grim for Hinjo and crew if nearly all of our currently present named characters are there on that island....:smallfrown::smallfrown:

[factotum]

I wonder what the duration on the summoning is. I mean, I dont' think big red gets to stay in the Prime Material for ever. That would make running in sheer terror actually a viable plan. You know, use up its time chasing everyone around until it goes bye bye. Dunno...

Or they could simply


get off the island! The big red guy clearly isn't happy about doing Qarr's bidding, so as far as he's concerned his task is complete as soon as every mortal on the island is dead. If they're all OFF the island then there are no longer any mortals on the island and the job is done!

[Lupy]

I think that V is gonna get seriously injured and Durkon, Elan, and the rest will save her.

[Lunaya]

...What does it say about me that Elan echoed my exact thoughts in the last panel? :smalleek:

[Knaight]

I'm seeing another possibility for the 4 words:
Qarr Cheated At Cards.

[Zolem]

...What does it say about me that Elan echoed my exact thoughts in the last panel? :smalleek:

That you care for V and don't want anything bad to happen because of her lack of trance.

[jzimbert]

I wonder what possibilities Qaar have in mind, maybe he's going to threaten someone.

He's going to bang the big guy's girlfriend!

[H. Zee]

Oh V, you card, you.

Even in such a state she makes Belkar look the epitome of health, V still manages to use that dry wit of hers.

(And yes, I said 'she' - V is a woman, dammit.)

[Ramien]

I wonder what possibilities Qaar have in mind, maybe he's going to threaten someone.

Probably run back to Kubota and tell him that Hinjo is on the island and is likely to be occupied for some time, if not killed. As such, it is now the perfect time for Kubota to either attempt an outright takeover of the fleet, or at the very least start laying further groundwork for such plans.

[Traker]

I think that V is gonna get seriously injured and Durkon, Elan, and the rest will save her.

Sounds rather good to me.

[KilltheToy]

As of now, they are all somewhat screwed.

[David Argall]

Minor detail. It is now established that V has purple hair and is not wearing a purple headcloth.



This shows just how desperate V is to gain XP and therefore power. ...But then, the XP gain would have been split at least five ways. Flying straight up to a devil that is watching you and explaining how you're going to banish it is pretty reckless,
Does not follow. While the standards of who does and does not get XP are not precise, at this point the XP gets split several ways. For the most part, you get XP if you were at risk. Even if your contribution was to be a possible target for one round, you are generally deemed worthy of a full share. Durkon most obviously gets a share for casting a spell. Lien, Hinjo and Elan get a share for just standing around. It is possible that Therkla and the 2+ guards are also benefiting.
V is merely getting close because this is a close range spell, and explaining everything in great detail because this is V. Recall comic 10 where V spent so much time talking the spell never got cast.


For all they know, she might be lying dead under a mass of rubble or being held prisoner in Xykon's tower. With this in mind, it's completely understandable why V is unwilling to be distracted by petty side quests, since he feels that every second is precious.
Every second is not the case here. Since Haley could have been killed in any of those seconds, each succeeding second is less precious and has long ago reached pretty trivial value. Every effort is precious since alive or dead, she still represents about the only effective way [in V's view at least] to get the quest back on track.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarblade
I wonder what possibilities Qaar have in mind, maybe he's going to threaten someone.

He's going to bang the big guy's girlfriend!

Assuming she is built on the same scale Big Guy is, Qarr may not be up to the job.

[imp_fireball]

The thing is, V thinks he has common sense, but in reality common sense is wisdom, and V hasn't got a lot of it (his WIS is like 8). On that side of logic, I'd think that the huge ass devil doesn't know much about V to actually fear his common sense, and so V is proven even more ignorant of the situation.

Also, there's more devils that can be made up than are to appear in the core rules, thank you very much. :P

Also, there could easily be a homebrewed feat that allows a devil to create a temporary pact with a demon, for all we know.

Despite however much everyone here might condemn fantasy settings ('it is fantasy after all so don't expect to find common sense yadda yadda'), Rich does follow a certain semblance of logic in his strips.

[T-O-E]

I'm seeing another possibility for the 4 words:
Qarr Cheated At Cards.

I doubt it, it's too early in the strip for a main-character to gain ultimate arcane power.

[Borris]

That is a good point, Ganurath. The problem is that Banish is only a Close Range spell, and I'm guessing V doesn't have a Metamagic Enlarge rod.
Close range is still 25 feet + 5 per 2 caster levels. In V's case, that's either 55 or 60 feet of range. The devil may be giganormous, but I doubt its range extends that far. Remember that a colossal (tall) creature only has a reach of 30 feet. Since tall creatures have a reach equal to their space, that devil sould occupy a space of 60 x 60 feet. It's big, but I don't think it's that big.


I wonder what the duration on the summoning is. I mean, I dont' think big red gets to stay in the Prime Material for ever. That would make running in sheer terror actually a viable plan. You know, use up its time chasing everyone around until it goes bye bye. Dunno...
Monsters summoned by a demon or devil ability normally stay for one hour (and cannot use their own summoning ability until one hour after having been summoned, thus preventing chain summoning). That's 600 rounds. There's no way the party can stall or outrun the devil for that long.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

Ok, so if V needs to banish the devil, and it only works is he/she has something that the devil hates/fears, then that means V has to find out what the devil hates/fears, right?

So, maybe:
Either Elan can produce a scary illusion. Or, the devil hates/fears.......


Puppets.

[Max_Sinister]

Minor detail. It is now established that V has purple hair and is not wearing a purple headcloth.

No, we knew that already. When he's changed back from lizard to elf, you can see it.

But now back on topic... what helps best against strong but stupid demons devils?

[Linkavitch]

good comic, Giant! WHO DARES SUMMO. . . oh, it's you, Qarr. Pretty good. V is either really over confident about fighting this dragon/demon thing, or he is delusional for lack of trance.

[T-O-E]

The start reminded me of when Celia was first summoned. I enjoyed the verbal exchange between Qarr and the Demon/Devil but I adored the last panel.

[holywhippet]

maybe people know this by now but...

in the the strip before- the demon thing was next to about 10+ boats, probably with catapult in most- I think that makes it a fair fight




also: no sleep and no belker-booming make V something-something:smallbiggrin:


Not really a great idea I think. Firstly, catapults might not punch past the damage reduction. Secondly, it will take several minutes for the crew on the boats to react, man the catapults, ready them to fire and start firing. Thirdly, they can't see the people on the island, but can assume they will be close to the enemy devil. As a result, even shots that hit run the risk of turning into friendly fire when they drop down onto the ground.

If they do start firing, hopefully they have something like burning pitch. Normal fire completely bypasses damage reduction - of course if the devil has fire resistance or immunity it won't help.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Ok, so if V needs to banish the devil, and it only works is he/she has something that the devil hates/fears, then that means V has to find out what the devil hates/fears, right?

So, maybe:
Either Elan can produce a scary illusion. Or, the devil hates/fears.......


Puppets.
*gasp*

ALL HAIL BANJO!

[Axl_Rose]

The gigantic diablo-esque thing is awesome; I hope it doesn't get easily killed, or killed at all.

My guess is

Elan will conjure a female version of that thing as a distracting illusion

[Red XIV]

Or they could simply


get off the island! The big red guy clearly isn't happy about doing Qarr's bidding, so as far as he's concerned his task is complete as soon as every mortal on the island is dead. If they're all OFF the island then there are no longer any mortals on the island and the job is done!

But V wouldn't go along with that, because he gets no XP that way.


My guess is

Elan will conjure a female version of that thing as a distracting illusion
DO NOT WANT.

[Happytime]

Vaarsuvius looks like s/he's about to shatter with all those wear lines...

[Lunaya]

That you care for V and don't want anything bad to happen because of her lack of trance.
Well, yeah. But mostly I was worried about my thought patterns starting to resemble Elan's. *shudder* :smallwink:

[AyuVince]

The tension is almost unbearable. When will the PCs have some success in their ventures again? When will Kubota's evil plot be foiled? When will Roy get a resurrection?

And for the love of all Elven gods, when will V finally trance before ze dies from insomnia?!

[dps]

I doubt it, it's too early in the strip for a main-character to gain ultimate arcane power.

I agree with this point.

[Red XIV]

Well, yeah. But mostly I was worried about my thought patterns starting to resemble Elan's. *shudder* :smallwink:
Even Elan can have a good idea. Not often, but it's a long webcomic. Long enough for those rare ideas to occassionally come up.

[Wreckingrocc]

At the top of the comic, it says "#584" instead of "#585".

Also, in 584 itself, if no-one has found this yet, in the second panel on the second section, it says, "What about you, imp? Anything to say before we send you back to hell."

I think it should be: "What about you, imp? Anything to say before we send you back to hell?"

[Verick Severith]

Is there a reason that at the top of the page it says comic #584 instead of #585? (Though the four is somewhat obscured by the demon's speech bubble)

Sorry if this has already been pointed out.

Oh and by the way great albeit a little short comic, I have to admit V's nature is starting to get the better of him/her.

EDIT: Dang! Ninjad!

[Zolem]

Also, there could easily be a homebrewed feat that allows a devil to create a temporary pact with a demon, for all we know.


Um, Imps are devils, unless theychanged it again. Summoning chits are referenced as favors that devils give out. Thus, by winning a gamble, Quar got an ubersumon. I have to admit, betting a free service with only two Jacks doesn't seem smart, especialy if the other guy has 3 kings showing. On the other hand, that fact could turn such a huge gamble into a super-bluff.

[maxon]

Sheesh, couldn't you have just said "I think V is female"?

No, I was refering to the fact that magic items are apparently rare in the OotS world, and that item would allow V to cast it at a greater distance (admittedly, the Sudden version of the feat would have worked, but the normal Enlarge Spell wouldn't work due to V apparently being limited to being able to use level 7 spell slots.


Don't worry HUMVEE Driver, I got your joke.

As for the comic, I don't know what to think of that. Scary.

[pendell]

*Snicker*
*chortle*

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!

I love it! Especially the whole 'poker game' thing!

Is it just me, or is this big red thing not exactly an 18 in Int?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[xyzchyx]

Some might point out that Qaar is calling in the big monster's gambling debt; aren't games of chance "Chaotic"?Poker players might be inclined to point out that, at its core, the game is much more about psychology than it is about chance.

[David Argall]

there could easily be a homebrewed feat that allows a devil to create a temporary pact with a demon, for all we know.
There is no need for a feat for this, but it is just going against the grain of 3.5. Demons and devils don't like each other. So any partnership between them needs development. The presumption is that if you have two fiends, they are both devil or both demons. Any theory that requires they be different should be marked as suspect at best.



But V wouldn't go along with that, because he gets no XP that way.

Overcoming the encounter does not require killing it, or even defeating it. Survival can be sufficient.



My guess is


Elan will conjure a female version of that thing as a distracting illusion
Our writer has used the idea, and tends not to reuse ideas.



No, we knew that already. When he's changed back from lizard to elf, you can see it.
Some readers here require a very high level of proof. There were those willing to argue this was merely the first garment put on.

[JosephHeller]

I don't have much to say but,
I think this might be the being V has four words to say to.

Seconded. And thirded.

[Amarsir]

Our writer has used the idea, and tends not to reuse ideas.Unless it's a running gag, which that already is.

[holywhippet]

Also, there could easily be a homebrewed feat that allows a devil to create a temporary pact with a demon, for all we know.

The evidence suggests both are devils rather than either being a demon. Qarr specifically tells the orc chieftan that his teeth would need to be either silver or good aligned to work on him. Silver is a weakness of devils, demons are vulnerable to cold iron.

When the giant devil appears, he is reluctant to fight for Qarr but agrees to do so. If he was a demon, and thus chaotic, he would feel free to simply ignore his debt.

[brilliantlight]

For once Elan makes more sense then V! V needs to be knocked out.

[David Argall]

Unless it's a running gag, which that already is.

Possibly, but if so, its failure is part of the gag and so we can expect the same failure here.

[JasonDoomsblade]

V really needs to cut out the speeches.

[Doug Lampert]

Some might point out that Qaar is calling in the big monster's gambling debt; aren't games of chance "Chaotic"? Not really an argument. Its obvious by now that moral standards in Rich's invented cosmos are somewhat on the libertine side.

Why would gambling be Chaotic?

CHEATING is Chaotic, but playing by the rules is LAWFUL, both alignments can play games.

As for the argument that poker is a game of chance, and hence random, and hence inherently Chaotic. I'll simply point out that chance has very little to do with someone with three kings showing beating someone with nothing but a pair of jacks, and that anyone bad enough to bet on two jacks thinking that the guy with three kings is bluffing is such a bad player that chance is not required to explain him losing. Poker is a game of skill.

[Doug Lampert]

Possibly, but if so, its failure is part of the gag and so we can expect the same failure here.

It sort of worked on Thog, although not in the expected way.
It failed on TriGak and the prison guard.

Three uses strikes me as enough to establish the running gag. One (limited) success shows that the gag doesn't REQUIRE that it fails completely.

[Prowl]

While the standards of who does and does not get XP are not precise, at this point the XP gets split several ways. For the most part, you get XP if you were at risk. Even if your contribution was to be a possible target for one round, you are generally deemed worthy of a full share. Durkon most obviously gets a share for casting a spell. Lien, Hinjo and Elan get a share for just standing around. It is possible that Therkla and the 2+ guards are also benefiting.



This may qualify under the "I'm ignorant enough that I'm not complicit, but involved enough to still get a share of the XP." rule as per http://www.feartheboot.com/comic/default.aspx?c=44

[zadcap]

V really needs to cut out the speeches.

But then it wouldn't be V, would it? Remember the third spell V ever cast)by name), page 10, that lovely sleep spell.
Kinda.

[hamishspence]

Cheating is not defined as chaotic (since chaotic doesn't get as much definition anywhere.)

PHB gives us a little on CG, CN, CE, Exalted Deeds gives us a little on CG, but neither get the in-depth treatment that Good and Evil do (and law gets some extra support in Fiendish Codex 2)

Cheating is defined specifically as Evil in Vile Darkness.

Closest thing to a source that describes it as Chaotic is Exemplars of evil, which gives a number of personality traits for villains, one of which is Duplicitous, which is described as Chaotic (compared to its counterpart Trustworthy, which is Lawful) And duplicitous villains are described as liars, cheats, and traitors.

So, the two: Chaos and cheating, are associated only in the sense that cheating is commonly done by Chaotic villains. Unlike Law, there is no "anarchy rating" and no list of "anarchic acts"

[Dr. Simon]

It sort of worked on Thog, although not in the expected way.
It failed on TriGak and the prison guard.

Three uses strikes me as enough to establish the running gag. One (limited) success shows that the gag doesn't REQUIRE that it fails completely.

However, since escaping from Cliffport jail, Elan used two illusions during the siege of Azure City, and they worked. (As a reminder, the illusory deaths of the PCs, and the celestial lion on the dock). This progression from failed "girl version" illusions has a whiff of character development about it. In Cliffport jail, Elan bemoans the fact that it never works, so he might be less likely to use it in future.

On the other hand, it is Elan.

[Dr. Simon]

The evidence suggests both are devils rather than either being a demon. Qarr specifically tells the orc chieftan that his teeth would need to be either silver or good aligned to work on him. Silver is a weakness of devils, demons are vulnerable to cold iron.

When the giant devil appears, he is reluctant to fight for Qarr but agrees to do so. If he was a demon, and thus chaotic, he would feel free to simply ignore his debt.

Isn't the fact that Qarr is an imp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#imp) and not a quasit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#quasit) rather explicitly suggest that he's a devil rather than a demon? At least to the D&Ders in the audience.

[hamishspence]

Yes, to modern D&Ders. But apparently 1st ed era imps were demons. And OOTS has been known to work around the standard D&D rules on occasion.

However, the combination of Lawful behaviour, silver vulnerabilty, and Calling In a Favour, are corroborating circumstantial evidence that The Giant has not messed with the rules much, in this case, and Qarr is almost certainly a bog standard imp, maybe with levels.

[Laurentio II]

The evidence suggests both are devils rather than either being a demon. Qarr specifically tells the orc chieftan that his teeth would need to be either silver or good aligned to work on him. Silver is a weakness of devils, demons are vulnerable to cold iron.
Right. But then, goblin should be small creatures, Thor should be of a different alignment, and the comic should be more bound to the official material and less funny.


When the giant devil appears, he is reluctant to fight for Qarr but agrees to do so. If he was a demon, and thus chaotic, he would feel free to simply ignore his debt.
You start from the opinion that devils and demons can't stick around for a poker. And I could point up that this particular demon/devil (the big one, I means) seems to dumb to ever consider the idea of refuse the work. If you are confident and cocky, you don't allow someone with three kind to beat you amazing pair. Not when he is small enough that you can kill him by snorting on him.

[DrivinAllNight]

So by the big red guys own admitted stupidity, (in cards at least) does that also mean that he is bound to be like most big, dumb creatures and have a high strength and HP? Not sure if that basic idea would be followed or not?

[eggamagga]

V is awsome! It's been a while since s/he has made me laugh like that!

[Draz74]

Huh.

I've complained repeatedly that the Elan/Durkon/V/Hinjo subplot has seemed like pure "fluffy" comic relief, with no real long-term bearing on the strip's plot. Therkla and Kubota just haven't seemed important enough to me, in terms of the real plot about the Gates and Xykon.

But now I'm starting to think that V's obsessive attitude is no mere "phase" that (s)he will recover from as soon as the party is reunited. Starting to think there's some permanent character development going on for our wizard friend. And not in a good direction. :smalleek:

... Elan and Therkla being the "main" objects of interest for this subplot, then, is merely a facade. They've been featured prominently, and popularized, mainly to distract people from noticing (or at least asking) as quickly what is really going on with V. And I got fooled. :smalltongue:

[factotum]

he is bound to be like most big, dumb creatures and have a high strength and HP?

Er...simply him being the SIZE he is would imply extremely high strength and HP; strength because he wouldn't be able to move otherwise, and HP because a creature that size simply isn't going to notice small weapon strikes. Intelligence is unrelated.

[M84]

First post here, though I've been following the strip for a while now.

Wow, I am impressed with this strip on so many levels.

It's true when the TV Tropes site warns you that it will ruin your life. I now can't help but see tropes in every piece of media I see. This strip alone hits several good ones.

I'm really liking the character of Qarr, even more so than the typical Evil Aristocrat Kubota or even the Ninja girl Stalker With a Crush Therkla. He just follows so many of my favorite tropes (note how they all relate to villainy).

At first when he was revealed, I was disappointed to see he was a tiny imp; he seemed like a faker, a Man Behind the Curtain.

Then it's revealed that he charmed an entire gang of sea trolls by himself. Then he has the guts to berate a ferocious orc chieftain in his own home, without being absolutely certain said orc DIDN'T have silver teeth or weapons. And while he doesn't legitimately summon the giant devil, he DOES browbeat it with absolutely no sign of fear whatsoever. I reiterate: the tiny imp forces a giant devil that could step on him and not notice the *squish* sound to honor his deal. I mean, yes, he's a Lawful Evil giant devil, but devils are supposedly masters of finding loopholes in said deals.

And now Qarr is about to enact another evil scheme. Qarr practically embodies Not So Harmless, even more so than Xykon! Whatever deal Kubota made with him is really paying off for the (possibly) Magnificent Bastard. He'd better hope he worded the contract VERY carefully.

Another possible trope NOT related to Qarr is V. Am I the only one who thinks that the purpose of this arc might actually be to show V's gradual Start of Darkness? The gradual physical and mental deterioration, the alienating of his peers, and the increasingly desperate attempts to obtain power practically make V an up and coming Sith lord. Yes, he has good reason to want more power (to help his other companions), but then again, a lot of villains in fiction and real life (except Xykon) have sympathetic motives at first, before going into Motive Decay and Jumping Off The Slippery Slope.

Anyway, I just wanted to get this out in the open.

[T-O-E]

Seconded. And thirded.

And then V'll transport to Azure city to kill the goblin army, Red-cloak, Xykon and the Snarl. Then he'll true ressurect Roy and destroy the souls of the linear guild and Kabuto, all occuring in just one round.

Sorry, I don't see it, it's too early.

[Tykus]

To be fair, was V ever really sane to begin with?

I think OCD is hir's problem

[Kaytara]

Another possible trope NOT related to Qarr is V. Am I the only one who thinks that the purpose of this arc might actually be to show V's gradual Start of Darkness? The gradual physical and mental deterioration, the alienating of his peers, and the increasingly desperate attempts to obtain power practically make V an up and coming Sith lord. Yes, he has good reason to want more power (to help his other companions), but then again, a lot of villains in fiction and real life (except Xykon) have sympathetic motives at first, before going into Motive Decay and Jumping Off The Slippery Slope.

Anyway, I just wanted to get this out in the open.

I agree with what's been said that this is basically an arc about V. The comic really makes you hold your breath every time it cuts back to the elf, since we all knew that no good would come of all this. Until such a time when Kubota, Therkla and Qarr prove of critical importance to the main plot, their story will just remain window dressing.

To be fair, I'm sure the idea that this is V's SoD has crossed anyone's mind at least once. I think most of us just hope it won't happen, or at least not to the point of no return.
I really don't see V becoming a fully-fledged villain. V HAS gone quite a bit nuts for this last arc, but there's still a huge gap between just being cold and grumpy to your teammates and actually opposing and physically harming the people you wanted to protect in the first place.

I predict that V actually WILL go as far as technically opposing his teammates; his current ones, at least. He doesn't seem to have much respect for them (which is frankly understandable, since Durkon's attitude has been less constructive than that of a high-WIS cleric should be, and Elan's still Elan, but I digress...), and if he comes to see them as obstacles to gaining more power and contacting Haley and Roy, the only two people in the Order he actually respects, he may use his magic against them, in whatever way. Doesn't even have to be harmful, but anything like using Grasping Hand to detain them is already a pretty clear breach of the house rules. Then, maybe Durkon and Elan will apply more and more effort to stop V from doing something crazy. When people actually oppose you, it's easier to view them as enemies.
Maybe Vaarsuvius actually goes that far, followed up by a What Have I Done moment and possibly Heroic BSOD for a significant part of the comic, until someone tells him to snap out of it. Haley could be important here. Also, her timely intervention may prevent him from going that far in the first place, but the former scenario has a higher drama potential.
This seems somewhat contrived, but that's honestly the direction I see the strip going in at the moment. So far it's a good thing Durkon and Elan haven't resorted to ignoring their teammate's wishes and whacking him unconscious to make him get some sleep. If that actually happens, Vaarsuvius will be justified in resenting them.

[DougTheHead]

That is a good point, Ganurath. The problem is that Banish is only a Close Range spell, and I'm guessing V doesn't have a Metamagic Enlarge rod.

So you think V's female, too? :smallwink:

[elonin]

V's an elf which more or less makes the male vs. female question semi-moot.

[Tobimaro]

V's last statement was the funniest part of the strip, but makes me more worried all the same.

Is that right? :smalleek:

[brilliantlight]

But then it wouldn't be V, would it? Remember the third spell V ever cast)by name), page 10, that lovely sleep spell.
Kinda.

Exactly, :vaarsuvius: has to be talkative otherwise she isn't herself. V loves long, dragged out explanations and it would be a major shift in her character not to be.

[Logalmier]

I really loved that exchange between Qarr and that devil.

Big Devil: "I thought you were bluffing!"
Qarr: "I had three kings showing."
Big Devil: "...I thought you were bluffing REALLY well!"

That cracked me up.:smallamused:

[Lamech]

Hmm... I'm guessing if that Devil is smart this will be a total party kill. One blasphemy could probably do the trick. Yeah for stuipid villans.:smallsmile: Also Quaar is quite a badass.

[Dragon Rawr]

The devil doesn't seem to be the sharpest guillotine on the chopping block.

This is either a good thing or a bad thing.

The Good: Easily Duped

The Bad: Everyone knows those with low intelligence are too silly to be duped.

The Ugly: He's HUGE.

[Solara]

So you think V's female, too? :smallwink:

Sorry, someone already made that joke.


V's an elf which more or less makes the male vs. female question semi-moot.

Whooosh!

[HUMVEE Driver]

Don't worry HUMVEE Driver, I got your joke.

As for the comic, I don't know what to think of that. Scary.

:smallbiggrin: Good to know someone did!

[Halvormerlinaky]

Well, yeah. But mostly I was worried about my thought patterns starting to resemble Elan's. *shudder* :smallwink:

The horror. The HORROR!

[Zorn]

I have to admit, betting a free service with only two Jacks doesn't seem smart, especialy if the other guy has 3 kings showing. On the other hand, that fact could turn such a huge gamble into a super-bluff.

That depends on how valuable this devil's time is. Judging by the looks of him, he seems more than capable enough to handle just about anything Qarr happens to encounter. Personally, I'd be rather frivolous with handing out summons if all they involved were squishing some troublemakers and then spending the remaining 59 minutes on some beautiful, abandoned isle.

[Selene]

You know, I kind of like Giant Devil Guy. I've been wanting to smack down V for a good 30 strips now. :smalltongue:

[hewhosaysfish]

I find this (http://www.adventurers-comic.com/d/20060128.html) strip from the excellent Adventurers! comic to be relevant to V's complaints:

Elan is more of a scientist in his methods than V is. :smalleek:

[SteveMB]

The devil doesn't seem to be the sharpest guillotine on the chopping block.
Perhaps more significantly, he doesn't have any particular interest in the job -- for instance, if the group retreated off the island, then the job would be technically done and he'd just shrug and go home.

[fehler]

So it's true: Poker is the Devil's Game.

[David Argall]

Perhaps more significantly, he doesn't have any particular interest in the job -- for instance, if the group retreated off the island, then the job would be technically done and he'd just shrug and go home.

this is confusing the possible with the certain. It depends on the way the devil reads the order. If he deems it to mean "kill all of those now on the island, retreat will not help." If he deems it to mean "Kill any who step on the island, now [past?] or future", again retreat is not going to help. This idea only works when the meaning is felt to be "kill everybody while they are on the island".
Oh yes, another possible meaning is "bring people to this island and kill them here."
Devils have a tradition of following the letter, but not the meaning, of orders, which means so something like killing them with laughter is not ruled out. However, devils also like to annoy mortals and so the meaning most painful to the party is a very likely the meaning the devil will adopt.

[factotum]

I think you're over-thinking it, David.


"Kill every mortal on this island" can easily be interpreted as "Keep killing mortals on this island until there are none left". If they leave the island, they're no longer on it and therefore need not be killed, and once the island is free of living mortals the devil has completed his bidding and can leave.

[dbmeboy]

I think you're over-thinking it, David.


"Kill every mortal on this island" can easily be interpreted as "Keep killing mortals on this island until there are none left". If they leave the island, they're no longer on it and therefore need not be killed, and once the island is free of living mortals the devil has completed his bidding and can leave.


Or it could be interpreted easily as "Kill every mortal currently on this island." I'm not sure that all this quite qualifies for spoiler tags, but I'll follow suit.

[myyysha]

Btw. the header of the part 585 is obstacled by speech bubble, but not obstacled enough not to be the number "584" clearly visible...

[Red XIV]

And then V'll transport to Azure city to kill the goblin army, Red-cloak, Xykon and the Snarl. Then he'll true ressurect Roy and destroy the souls of the linear guild and Kabuto, all occuring in just one round.

Sorry, I don't see it, it's too early.
I don't think True Resurrection is an arcane spell.:smalltongue:


Or it could be interpreted easily as "Kill every mortal currently on this island." I'm not sure that all this quite qualifies for spoiler tags, but I'll follow suit.
But given the devil's apparent lack of interest in the job Qarr gave him (he's only doing it because he has a debt to pay off), it seems likely that he'd go for whatever interpretation requires the least effort on his part. If all the mortals leave the island, that means he can just say the job's done and he'll have fulfilled his obligation to the imp.

[David Argall]

[QUOTE=factotum;4743300]I think you're over-thinking it, David.

Not really. I am merely pointing out that you can't say "certainly" here. There are dozens of possible meanings to the command and assuming one tricky meaning that is convenient to the mortals is the correct one is taking a risk at the least. Any of these ideas might be the correct one.

[AlexanderRM]

You don't need to sleep (or in V's case, trance) to study spells.
Yes, but you need to sleep to prepare them. My guess is that all the rules on wizards sleeping have been thrown out the window here, and V is somehow preparing spells without resting, so it's no good going by the official rules.



I don't think True Resurrection is an arcane spell.:smalltongue:

Well, if V gained ultimate arcane power right now, he/she should be able to either case it as an arcane spell (actually, come to think of it, would attaining ultimate arcane power count as becoming a god? In that case V could bring back even people destroyed by spheres of annihilation with ease), or use something like a 12th level equivalent of wish.

[Ceric]

Am I the only one who thinks
the loophole might also be in the word "mortals"? Liches aren't mortal, so if V really is/becomes a lich... well, I'll be very sad. :smalleek:

[brilliantlight]

Am I the only one who thinks
the loophole might also be in the word "mortals"? Liches aren't mortal, so if V really is/becomes a lich... well, I'll be very sad. :smalleek:

:vaarsuvius: certainly isn't a lich now as all undead in OOTS look like :xykon:. I hope he never does become one.

[Red XIV]

:vaarsuvius: certainly isn't a lich now as all undead in OOTS look like :xykon:. I hope he never does become one.
No, only skeletal undead. Zombies, ghasts, wights, etc look basically like recolored versions of whatever they were in life.

[Schaffer1979]

Well, if V gained ultimate arcane power right now, he/she should be able to either case it as an arcane spell (actually, come to think of it, would attaining ultimate arcane power count as becoming a god? In that case V could bring back even people destroyed by spheres of annihilation with ease), or use something like a 12th level equivalent of wish.


Ultimate Arcane power could be acquiring the wish spell which could be a form of ultimate power if used correctly. I remember somewhere it being said the character's skills and abilities are at the level the plot requires.

And it's not too early in the strip for V to gain ultimate power if the character doesn't know how to harness it. You can have the biggest, most powerful vehicular engine in the world but you can't drive it without first acquiring the knowledge and the skill to manipulate all its facets--same goes for magics.

[factotum]

Am I the only one who thinks
the loophole might also be in the word "mortals"? Liches aren't mortal, so if V really is/becomes a lich... well, I'll be very sad. :smalleek:

How exactly would you expect that to happen? People don't become liches just because they WANT to become one, it takes months of preparation and evil ritual to do it...

[David Argall]

it's not too early in the strip for V to gain ultimate power if the character doesn't know how to harness it. You can have the biggest, most powerful vehicular engine in the world but you can't drive it without first acquiring the knowledge and the skill to manipulate all its facets--same goes for magics.

Still the same problems. It is way too early unless we want to totally abandon the indicated plot, or we make the power temporary. If we give V ultimate power, Xykon, gates, and even the Snarl becomes trivial. Now we can do a few strips showing V misusing the power or something, but pretty soon, V just says "powerful spell" and the plot is destroyed. So any granting of ultimate power at this time is going to be temporary.

[Selene]

Still the same problems. It is way too early unless we want to totally abandon the indicated plot, or we make the power temporary.

Ok, now that would be freaking hysterical. V, you have ultimate arcane power for five minutes starting... now. GO!

[teratorn]

Ok, now that would be freaking hysterical. V, you have ultimate arcane power for five minutes starting... now. GO!

From Origins we know that anything shorter than one hour will not do...

[T-O-E]

I don't think True Resurrection is an arcane spell.:smalltongue:

I was exaggerating. Basically, if V does gain ultimate arcane power, prepare to say good-bye to the plot.

[Arcadius798]

Tenacious little f--ker V, isn't he/she/it/shim?

[SteveMB]

Basically, if V does gain ultimate arcane power, prepare to say good-bye to the plot.

The Oracle didn't say anything about how long V would keep the ultimate arcane power, or what other catch it might have.... :smallwink:

[Kaytara]

I.... cannot take much more of this. :smalleek:
I've been checking the comic about 30 times a day every day since 585.... It's taken over my life... I partially know how V feels now... Hopefully tomorrow's dawn will bring salvation...

[Graymayre]

I.... cannot take much more of this. :smalleek:
I've been checking the comic about 30 times a day every day since 585.... It's taken over my life... I partially know how V feels now... Hopefully tomorrow's dawn will bring salvation...

Same here, I cannot stand the beating of this proverbial "Tell-Tale Heart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell-Tale_Heart)" :smalleek:

[Kaytara]

Same here, I cannot stand the beating of this proverbial "Tell-Tale Heart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell-Tale_Heart)" :smalleek:

Apparently I'm behind on my culture.

Indulge me. What does 'the beating of this proverbial Tell-Tale Heart' mean? :smallconfused:

[T-O-E]

Apparently I'm behind on my culture.

Indulge me. What does 'the beating of this proverbial Tell-Tale Heart' mean? :smallconfused:

The link will explain. Now, i'm only guessing but I assume you mean obsession? Or you assume the comic has updated but check again to find that it has not?

[Graymayre]

The link will explain. Now, i'm only guessing but I assume you mean obsession? Or you assume the comic has updated but check again to find that it has not?

Kind of both.

[Occasional Sage]

You know, after you post on the Forum an update will appear over there on the left, if there is one. So you can have the best of both worlds: obsessive Forum posting, and notification of updates!

If you want less of a time expenditure than wallowing in the Forum, just stick the RSS feed in your task bar and check while your computer is working on something else. The RSS feed is your friend :smallbiggrin:

[Kaytara]

Ah, I get it.

With me, it's a straight-out obsession. I've always had a habit of doodling at school whenever I'm not busy, but recently all I've been able to think (and doodle) about is OotS... I've been back at school for three weeks, and I have about two dozen drawings already... Mostly of V, since I can't seem to agree how to draw hir features...
^^ And it's not assuming as much as hoping that the comic has miraculously been updated....

*sigh*

[Bernemer]

The gigantic diablo-esque thing is awesome; I hope it doesn't get easily killed, or killed at all.

My guess is

Elan will conjure a female version of that thing as a distracting illusion

Well, judging by the confusion on the subject of Vaarsuvius's gender and sexual preferences as given by this forum, I'd guess the thing needn't necessarily be perceived as "male" and/or heterosexual, therefore whatever someone else's spolier-hidden guess here is does not necessarily have to be effective at all.

Referencing to the creature as "thing" furthermore opens some options beyond the usual male/female binary logic - maybe its neither male, nor female, but neuter?

(Well, to be honest, I usually get the creeps from reading someone attributing a female gender to a pseudo-Latin name, ending "-ius"... :smallfurious: but that's just my personal view...)

[MuerteMD]

Has anyone else noticed that the strip number is actually written out as 584 instead of 585? It's hidden partially behind the text balloon but the visible portion is pretty clearly a 4.

[An Enemy Spy]

About athousand people have noticed that

[David Argall]

About athousand people have noticed that
But less than a hundred have posted on that.

[AlexanderRM]

Has anyone else noticed that the strip number is actually written out as 584 instead of 585? It's hidden partially behind the text balloon but the visible portion is pretty clearly a 4.
YES. :smallfurious:
Sorry, had to get that out...

[Selene]

From Origins we know that anything shorter than one hour will not do...

Yep. LOL. Ask him a question and it's over.

[dps]

Apparently I'm behind on my culture.

Only by about 165 years. :smallbiggrin: