[3.5] Consumable or no?

[Gorbash]

So, here's the deal. What should be done regarding spells that are transfered in a wizard's spellbook via scrolls? Should they be accounted into standard wealth by lvl or no? Especially at later lvls, it gets expensive (both scrolls and 100gp per page), leaving wizard with nothing to do with his gold except write spells into spellbook (and please, spare me the arguement 'wizard doesn't need anything except spells'), and even if he did, his current spells in spellbook would take up a lot of WBL, since price increases drastically over the lvls (5th lvl spell costing 1625 gp to write into spellbook).

Of course, all above is played in a normal campaign within borders of common sense, so no, that wouldn't allow a wizard to write all of the spells in a spellbook, given enough gold, since he simply couldn't get by all that gold.

[Lochar]

Blessed book and the Geometer PrC are the answers to this.

Blessed book's don't have a cost to write spells into the book, and have 1000 pages.

Geometer allows the wizard to make all spells he writes in his spellbooks take only 1 page, regardless of level.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Beyond that, why is the Wizard using a scroll as the main way of getting spells? They can also be copied out of someone else's spellbook for no charge(other than the page cost). It's usually understood that the other Wizards will trade spells with you so you both benefit.

[LibraryOgre]

I require that spells above the minimum be paid for in WBL, though I'm willing to forgo scroll costs, assuming you learned it from someone; to do otherwise, IMO, would be tantamount to saying fighters don't need to account for their weapons and armor in WBL. I'm now wondering if not requiring that is part of the strength of wizards in many games... not that they're weak naked, but if their large spellbooks aren't paid for, it would greatly increase their power.

Of course, that just makes Blessed Book abuse more likely, so maybe I should insist on scroll costs, too.

[Gorbash]

They can also be copied out of someone else's spellbook for no charge(other than the page cost)

That too costs, actually, 50 gp x spell level. But yeah, it's the cheaper way...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

"Blessed Book abuse"? How is it abusive to follow the RAW? It mentions trading spells at no cost to either in the PHB, and a Blessed Book isn't available until ~10th level anyways, but it's designed in part to make it cheaper to scribe spells, and is in the DMG. I don't see how that could be abuse.

[shadow_archmagi]

I would. They're copying the scroll into their book so they can re-use it later. If it were a class feature that made scrolls re-useable, you'd count it in WBL.

By the way, if a wizard loses his spellbook and buys a new, blank one, does he still keep his default 2 spells per level or is he utterly powerless?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I would. They're copying the scroll into their book so they can re-use it later. If it were a class feature that made scrolls re-useable, you'd count it in WBL.

By the way, if a wizard loses his spellbook and buys a new, blank one, does he still keep his default 2 spells per level or is he utterly powerless?Powerless. Which is why so many DMs don't mess with spellbooks. They're worse than Disjunction. Of course, generally there is a backup book hidden somewhere(usually the spellbook they had back before they got a Blessed Book), but it's still not a good thing to do.

[LibraryOgre]

"Blessed Book abuse"? How is it abusive to follow the RAW? It mentions trading spells at no cost to either in the PHB, and a Blessed Book isn't available until ~10th level anyways, but it's designed in part to make it cheaper to scribe spells, and is in the DMG. I don't see how that could be abuse.

Baseline, I can afford a BBB at 6th level; I'll only have 500gp in other gear, but if I can argue that I traded my way into all 0th-3rd level spells in the PH, I'm doing pretty well. By 8th level, a BBB doesn't even cost half your WBL, and you can be a 2nd level Geometer*, meaning you can have 2000 spells, all with the argument "I traded for them", and still have a couple thousand in other items.

Could you cast all 2000 spells in a day? No. But the chances of having a useful spell in that array is greatly increased, and you can always leave a slot or two open... and if you have Alacritous Cogitation, that's some severely bodacious flexibility.

*Note that I'm not entirely sure that a Geometer gets to scribe spells at a 1/page rate for free in BBB; the BBB text specifically mentions the 25gp/page rate (presumably errataed to 50gp/page), not anything else. There may be errata stating otherwise, but a plain reading of the text would imply that the entire cost is not negated.

[CASTLEMIKE]

So, here's the deal. What should be done regarding spells that are transfered in a wizard's spellbook via scrolls? Should they be accounted into standard wealth by lvl or no? Especially at later lvls, it gets expensive (both scrolls and 100gp per page), leaving wizard with nothing to do with his gold except write spells into spellbook (and please, spare me the arguement 'wizard doesn't need anything except spells'), and even if he did, his current spells in spellbook would take up a lot of WBL, since price increases drastically over the lvls (5th lvl spell costing 1625 gp to write into spellbook).

Of course, all above is played in a normal campaign within borders of common sense, so no, that wouldn't allow a wizard to write all of the spells in a spellbook, given enough gold, since he simply couldn't get by all that gold.


Boccob's Blessed Spell Book is an option in game just like choosing not to use one is an option in game. Prorating the Blessed Book down to 100 pages instead of a 1,000 is always an option at the lower levels. Craft Wondrous Item magical item so half price if someone in the party has the feat or knows someone with the feat (Need the Secret Page spell). Arcane Guilds can craft magical items without the feat for an additional +10% using the reference library (Arcane Guilds of Silverymoon)

PCs can trade freely amongst themselves for no cost.

Guild Members like MotAO or Guild Wizard's of Waterdeep can copy for half market cost all the common PHB spells in addition to Guild bonus spells plus any other spells the DM/GM wants in his game but pay full inscribing cost without the Boccob's Blessed Book. (Most arcane guilds have been around for centuries and have many members it wouldn't be an unusual bequeath to the guild (New Original Spells and Extra Spell Books), (Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors (Guild of Waterdeep) has approximately 1,000 members)

Believe there was a small note in Complete Arcane or Complete Mage that if a wizard lost all their spell books they received a free spell book with standard known wizard spells for their level not a free replacement book of everything lost or at half cost (Hazy on the details).

Having all the party gear stolen once or twice can be interesting but the Wizard shouldn't be solely targeted in a group. All Wizards know Read Magic (Basic limited free Spell Mastery) consider upgrading that to the full feat as a bonus if you think he is being to careless with his valuable spell books which should get his attention (The feat is of marginal value to a wizard with spellbooks).

[Gorbash]

*Note that I'm not entirely sure that a Geometer gets to scribe spells at a 1/page rate for free in BBB; the BBB text specifically mentions the 25gp/page rate (presumably errataed to 50gp/page)

That always bugged me. BBB says that it ignores the usual cost of 25gp/page, although PHB says that that cost is 100gp/page. So which is it?

[LibraryOgre]

That always bugged me. BBB says that it ignores the usual cost of 25gp/page, although PHB says that that cost is 100gp/page. So which is it?

I looked it up on the SRD, which cited 50gp/page. The 100/page was a Geometer feature (presumably: More expensive, but takes up a lot less space).

[Recaiden]

Geometer and Boccob's blessed book make it a lot easier to scribe scrolls. Trading spells makes it cheaper and is totally reasonable.

Another trick that i saw elswhere is the use of the spell secret page, which specifies that the page can be made to show a spell. No cost is given for the material components. Why pay for spells when you can use a 3rd level spell to scribe them for free? DMs may rule that the secret text is not a 'real' spell and can't be used to memorize, but the spell is transmutation, not illusion, so i think it has a pretty good case.

[Curmudgeon]

So, here's the deal. What should be done regarding spells that are transfered in a wizard's spellbook via scrolls? Should they be accounted into standard wealth by lvl or no?
Absolutely! Acquiring spells is most of the power of a Wizard, and that's exactly what WbL should reflect. Ready availability of spells means that a Wizard has less need for expensive equipment to be able to function effectively. Compare that to a Fighter, who relies on magical arms and armor to do their job, and you'll see that a Wizard's WbL really needs to include all their spell costs: spellbooks, special ink, scrolls, and the like. As they automatically get new spells, the DM should automatically make them pay for those spells by factoring the costs into the WbL formula.

Wizards automatically get a big initial boost by being granted an expensive spellbook for free. It's unfair to other classes to continue the free ride when Wizards are becoming increasingly more powerful.

[Talic]

"Blessed Book abuse"? How is it abusive to follow the RAW? It mentions trading spells at no cost to either in the PHB, and a Blessed Book isn't available until ~10th level anyways, but it's designed in part to make it cheaper to scribe spells, and is in the DMG. I don't see how that could be abuse.

"Abuse" is traditionally when one follows the rules as written to achieve an effect that makes you disproportionally more powerful.

For example, using Gate + Wish to wish for more things, finishing with another scroll of gate. This allows you to get many powerful effects, most notably bypassing WBL costs of attribute bonuses, items, and the like.

If Blessed Book does something similar, then it could be construed as a lesser form of that abuse.

As to the OP question. If you're bringing this character up from lv 1, there is a certain amount of padding to the Average wealth per encounter. The game puts in that padding to account for a certain amount of use of potions, scrolls, wands, and the like. I usually refer to it as "Disposable WBL". It's basically, how much money, on average, you can spend each level, and still have the expected WBL using nothing but average treasure rewards from your encounters. Thus, no DM mitigation, or the like.

[Morandir Nailo]

I absolutely agree that Wizards should have to pay for their spells. I'd say that they have to pay all scribing costs. The 2 free spells/level would incur no further cost, but if they wanted more than that, they'd have to pay the cost for a scroll to copy.

Mor

[Gorbash]

I absolutely agree that Wizards should have to pay for their spells. I'd say that they have to pay all scribing costs. The 2 free spells/level would incur no further cost, but if they wanted more than that, they'd have to pay the cost for a scroll to copy.

Did you even read my first post or any other, for that matter?


It's basically, how much money, on average, you can spend each level, and still have the expected WBL using nothing but average treasure rewards from your encounters.

But using the scroll to use a spell from it once is different than writing it into a spellbook, since you get to use that spell over and over afterwards. And there's still the cost of the special inks and all that... Maybe I should just count the cost of those into WBL? It's 5000 gp per spellbook, and considering that at 10th lvl a wizard will likely have two of those or even 3, it's not that much gold, but it still hampers their choice of other equipment.

[Talic]

But using the scroll to use a spell from it once is different than writing it into a spellbook, since you get to use that spell over and over afterwards. And there's still the cost of the special inks and all that... Maybe I should just count the cost of those into WBL? It's 5000 gp per spellbook, and considering that at 10th lvl a wizard will likely have two of those or even 3, it's not that much gold, but it still hampers their choice of other equipment.

Well, technically, even if the scroll is a disposable item, the spell you scribe is not, and thus, using that wealth in that manner will put you a little high on WBL.

A spell in a spellbook has a value. 100gp per page, and 50gp per level of the spell. In most cases, that means that it's 150gp per level of the spell. Now, scrolls cost more than that, and it's perfectly acceptable to use disposable wealth to offset that difference. (cost of scribing from another book vs cost of scribing from a scroll)

However, if your character is adhering more or less by WBL, the cost of putting extra spells in the spellbook, above and beyond what the wizard gets for free? That should be factored in.

[Gorbash]

A spell in a spellbook has a value. 100gp per page, and 50gp per level of the spell. In most cases, that means that it's 150gp per level of the spell. Now, scrolls cost more than that, and it's perfectly acceptable to use disposable wealth to offset that difference. (cost of scribing from another book vs cost of scribing from a scroll)

Well, this is the option I'm gonna go with, I think. Except it's 100 gp per level of the spell in total. This is where clerics have the upper hand on wizards. Until wizards get BBB, of course.

Thanks, everyone.

[Telonius]

Powerless. Which is why so many DMs don't mess with spellbooks. They're worse than Disjunction. Of course, generally there is a backup book hidden somewhere(usually the spellbook they had back before they got a Blessed Book), but it's still not a good thing to do.

Except for Read Magic. Which is a good thing, since without it the Wizard would really be up a creek if he needs to re-do his whole spellbook and make a d20+spell level Spellcraft check each time he wants to even decipher a spell.

[Gorbash]

Well, that's not really a problem due to wizard's high int, synergy bonus from knowlede and arcana, and maybe even skill focus (spellcraft), which a bunch of wizards will have, since it's a prerequisite for Archmage. At 10th lvl, my wizard has +25 Spellcraft.

[Curmudgeon]

Spells Gained at a New Level

Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice to add to her spellbook.
I treat "gains two spells" as "gains access to two spells".

Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll

A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook.

In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp.
The rules provide three mechanisms for Wizards to acquire new spells:
scrolls
borrowed spellbooks
new spell research
None of these mechanisms mentions getting spells for free, so I've always made Wizards pay the "borrowed spellbook" price for these two spells when leveling up.

[John Campbell]

The way our games have handled it is:

You pay only scribing costs (100 gp/page, assuming a normal spellbook) for those two new spells at each level.

You can copy/trade spells for free (modulo scribing costs), or whatever other terms you can negotiate, with other PC wizards or named NPCs; however, that relies on your ability to negotiate doing so (Role-playing! In a role-playing game! Who'd've thunk?), and is restricted to the limited list of spells that those characters actually know, and possibly your ability to come up with spells that they don't already have to trade them.

Given a sizable town with a reasonable population of wizards, you can probably find most other spells available to copy, given some time to search, but that'll cost you the 50 gp/level spellbook access fee. And the DM has an obvious easy veto there for spells that he doesn't want around.

This makes Boccob's blessed books extremely useful items that'll pay for themselves over the course of your career, but not a thousand pages of free spells.

[Gorbash]

Who'd've thunk?

It's 'thought', actually...


This makes Boccob's blessed books extremely useful items that'll pay for themselves over the course of your career, but not a thousand pages of free spells.

Since a spellbook full of spells costs 5000 gold and you can put a finite number of spells in it, it's likely that you'll need at least 3 by lvl 10, it's a pretty good idea to buy one...

Anyways, I'll make my player who plays a wizard count 50gp/page into his WBL, and the method of obtaining the spells is left to him - he can buy a scroll or borrow someone's spellbook, but I won't count it into his WBL.

[LordOkubo]

Um yeah:

1) The inks have value, the spells really don't. Once you have a BBB the ink no longer has value, and only the BBB takes out of your WBL.

2) If there is a Wizard guild in your world, and you are a member of it, and your DM makes you pay for spells several levels lower then your maximum, he's kind of a ****.

3) what I usually do is make do with a couple spells of a given level until I gain a higher level, for example, just Web and Glitterdust at level 3. Then at level 5 I find some level 3 Wizards and let them copy Stinking Cloud in return for invisibility.

4) Yeah, the spellcraft DCs are a joke. At level 1 you have a +8-9 mod. At level 2 you have +11-+12. Guess what? You can take ten on deciphering a spell. You can also take ten on the check to prepare spells from someone else's spellbook. This means that after level 2, anyone's spellbook is just as easy to prepare from as your own.

@Curmudgeon

I treat, "Fighters gain bonus feats" as gain access to, and then I make them pay two million gp per feat that they actually get. For some reason no one plays fighters in my campaigns.

I also don't pretend it's the actual rules though, because I'm not stupid.

[Talic]

I treat "gains two spells" as "gains access to two spells".

The rules provide three mechanisms for Wizards to acquire new spells:
scrolls
borrowed spellbooks
new spell research
None of these mechanisms mentions getting spells for free, so I've always made Wizards pay the "borrowed spellbook" price for these two spells when leveling up.

I think it's really more similar to new spell research, except that there is no cost listed. I can see the price for inking it in (100gp per page), but the borrowed cost of 50gp per spell level? Not so much.

I typically treat "gains two spells" as "add two spells to your book". It's a class feature. It shouldn't be designed to make casters pay out the nose for the basics.

[ericgrau]

WBL is what you have not what you get. When you get a consumable, it is part of WBL, after you use it then it is no longer part of WBL. If something is sold for half, then only half of its value goes into WBL.

Thus the treasure you give out should be higher than WBL. I'd make a rough estimate of what treasure to put in the dungeon and stick to it (maybe 110% WBL, for example), so that reasonably smart PCs will end up with 100% WBL in the long run. More if they're extra smart, less if they're not or if they're wasteful.

Or guess how quickly they should burn through the consumables, how much will be sold, how much might be lost/destroyed, and give out extra treasure to match. In the example of copying a scroll into a spellbook, the PC's WBL gained is now the value of the spells in the spellbook (100gp per page, maybe more as mentioned in previous post), not the value of the scroll.

[mostlyharmful]

Wizards get two free spells per level as part of their class features, it's just that simple.

taking that away from them and sticking in even more constraints does bupkus to stop high level uberness, completely cripples low level wizards and makes captured wizards spell books the most valuable thing in the game. In general all it does is raise a whole lot more problems in playing a low level wizard, a whole lot more problems fititng wizardry into your game world and no kind of limitation on high level uberness.:smallfrown:

Finding a balance point for expressing excess spells as part consumables and part WBL is a DMs challange and it depends mostly on gameplay, if the campaign features lots of high CRs then desposable wealth goes a long way for all the classes towards meeting it and if the mage decides to spend their hard cash on more versatility thats fair enough, likewise in a tight WBL campaign you'll want to tip it the other way and make more than 2 spells per level cut into their budget.

[LibraryOgre]

1) The inks have value, the spells really don't. Once you have a BBB the ink no longer has value, and only the BBB takes out of your WBL.

The information that allows you to change the universe has no value? The lifeblood of the wizard class has no value?

Once again, we're talking "Warriors get swords and armor for free, but have to pay for their repair tools."


2) If there is a Wizard guild in your world, and you are a member of it, and your DM makes you pay for spells several levels lower then your maximum, he's kind of a ****.

Yes, because valuable information should be free.

Ten fully-loaded spellbooks cost 50,000gp, and have the same page counts as 1 BBB. For 50,000gp, you can buy 4 BBBs. Suggesting that you can fill one of them, for free, and not have the contents count against WBL is pretty egregious.

[ZekeArgo]

All these restraint things are going to do is lead wizards to take collegiate wizard at first level and go geometer + guild wizard (preferably the FR one). 4 freely scribed spells per level is *more* than enough for any wizard to gain any and all spells he'll need per spell level.

[Gorbash]

Suggesting that you can fill one of them, for free, and not have the contents count against WBL is pretty egregious.

Well, it wouldn't be for free, you'd still have to pay for every spell... It just wouldn't count against WBL.


4 freely scribed spells per level is *more* than enough for any wizard to gain any and all spells he'll need per spell level.

Not really... I have a level 10 wizard and he has 78 spells... On lvl 11, I'll try to get another 14 I need...

[LordOkubo]

The information that allows you to change the universe has no value? The lifeblood of the wizard class has no value?

Once again, we're talking "Warriors get swords and armor for free, but have to pay for their repair tools."

Let's try this again. Spellbook: Costs money. Ink: Costs money.

Ephemeral abstract concept of knowledge: Not part of WBL.

Do you make Monks pay for their fists too?


Yes, because valuable information should be free.

Ten fully-loaded spellbooks cost 50,000gp, and have the same page counts as 1 BBB. For 50,000gp, you can buy 4 BBBs. Suggesting that you can fill one of them, for free, and not have the contents count against WBL is pretty egregious.

What I was referring to was trading spells, because you know, trading spells is right there in the PHB.

No you can't just summon spellbooks for free. Yes you can trade spells to get other spells, as outlined in the PHB.

[Zeful]

Well, it wouldn't be for free, you'd still have to pay for every spell... It just wouldn't count against WBL.

Where do you get that assertion? If you have any item with a note able cost than it comes out of WBL. Every spell in a wizard's spell book counts against his wealth by level, even from books from captured wizards. It seems kind of simple to me.

[Gorbash]

Where do you get that assertion? If you have any item with a note able cost than it comes out of WBL. Every spell in a wizard's spell book counts against his wealth by level, even from books from captured wizards. It seems kind of simple to me.

And where do you get your assertion? You see, that's the problem, it doesn't say anywhere what should be done with scrolls that are used to put spells into spellbook. It seems kinda stupid that a consumable becomes a permanent item once you transfer it to a spellbook, it's just a different method of using a consumable item...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Honestly, I'm confused by this. What are you talking about with WBL? That's not the DMs concern on a player-level. He gives out awards roughly equal to those detailed for the level, and the players decide what to do with it. If they want to use a scroll, fine, if they want to scribe with it instead, fine. Let them make the decisions, and if they end up broke because of too many wands, let them figure out how to deal with it.

[only1doug]

Some DM's try to maintain balance by keeping their PC's close to the WBL guidelines during play. (My GM recently checked total party wealth so he knows roughly what level of rewards to give.)

I'm glad i'm not playing with a GM who charges wizards for their free spells though (and i'm not even playing a wizard)



by PHB pg 179

Spells gained at a new level:
<snip>The two free spells must be of spell levels she can cast.


the text could be interpreted to read that the player needs to pay to scribe the free spells but not that they would have to pay for any cost of the spells.

I must admit to a real curiosity, how do you deal with sorcerers spells known and wealth by level? how about rogue sneak attack dice? cleric/druid spells known? Animal companions and familiars?
all of these class features must have some value right? Wrong IMO

[Zeful]

And where do you get your assertion? You see, that's the problem, it doesn't say anywhere what should be done with scrolls that are used to put spells into spellbook.

So? No where in the DMG are there rules on what to count for WBL, so you should really count everything, unless they get it as part of a class feature. Just because a resource is consumable doesn't make it any less expensive.


It seems kinda stupid that a consumable becomes a permanent item once you transfer it to a spellbook, it's just a different method of using a consumable item...
How is this stupid? When you scribe it into your book, it becomes permanent as long as you have the book, and is no longer, by any definition, consumable. Therefore you treat the spell like any other permanent part of WBL.

[LordOkubo]

How is this stupid? When you scribe it into your book, it becomes permanent as long as you have the book, and is no longer, by any definition, consumable. Therefore you treat the spell like any other permanent part of WBL.

Yes, and the spell has a very different value then the "scroll" since you can get the spell without buying a scroll. This value is either 100gp per spell level, or 0gp if you are using a Blessed Book. So spells don't take up any WBL if you have a BBB.

[Curmudgeon]

I must admit to a real curiosity, how do you deal with sorcerers spells known and wealth by level? how about rogue sneak attack dice? cleric/druid spells known? Animal companions and familiars?
all of these class features must have some value right? Value? Yes. Monetary value? No.

A Wizard's spellbook can be taken from their corpse and sold for tangible wealth. You can't do that with sneak attack dice from a Rogue's corpse.

A lot of the really atrociously broken builds start by taking a level 1 Wizard and selling their "free" spellbook for substantial wealth. Giving them access to 2 spells of their choice, without any quests to find them in a remote library or expenditure of resources for the search, is quite a further boon. Letting those spells get copied for free is just an insult to other character classes, who have to work for their increased wealth.

Wizard is the most powerful class in D&D, eventually. It's unreasonable to accelerate that increase in power with freebies instead of just following the rules and using the standard costs for all Wizard spells.

[Chronicled]

Giving them access to 2 spells of their choice, without any quests to find them in a remote library or expenditure of resources for the search, is quite a further boon. Letting those spells get copied for free is just an insult to other character classes, who have to work for their increased wealth class features.

Fixed that for you. You must really hate Sorcerers, Beguilers, and Warmages. Just think of all the spells they get access to, without any quests to find them in a remote library or expenditure of resources for the search. And they can't even be stolen!

[LordOkubo]

Wizard is the most powerful class in D&D, eventually. It's unreasonable to accelerate that increase in power with freebies instead of just following the rules and using the standard costs for all Wizard spells.

I'm curious, do you even realize that what you are doing is not following the PHB rules which very specifically say, "These free spells..."

Or are you actually so deluded that you think you are following the actual rules.

[Curmudgeon]

You must really hate Sorcerers, Beguilers, and Warmages. Hate them? Not at all. I'm just happy to use the existing rules to bring Wizards down to approximately the same level. Sorcerers have built-in limits on the number of spells they can know. The only limit for Wizards is their budget.


I'm curious, do you even realize that what you are doing is not following the PHB rules which very specifically say, "These free spells..." Let's get the context for that quote:
Each time a character attains a new wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice to add to her spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels she can cast. The Wizard gains access to two spells of their choice for free. The rules do not say they get to copy them into their spellbook without paying the standard costs.

These spells are free in the same sense that we have freedom of the press. You are free to have your own printing press -- but you still need to pay for it.

[Fizban]

Here's how I see it:

Wealth by level is the value of gear the game assumes a character of a certain level will have. The game is balanced based on this amount, so characters with more will be more powerful, and those with less will be less powerful. The DMG states that the random treasure tables supply a bit more than WBL in order to account for consumables used while adventuring, somewhere around 10-20% if I remember right. This doesn't affect the value of spells, but means that consumables such as scrolls and potions don't count as long as their combined value is only about 10% of the character's wealth.

The wizard gets an amount of spells for free as a class feature, their starting spells and another 2 at each level up, limited to levels they can cast at the time. Any spells they know above and beyond those are part of their permanent gear, and count against WBL. Depending on how you read the description of free spells on level up, they may be completely free, or the cost of scribing may be counted against WBL (I'd say they're completely free, as it's less hassle, and if the cost of scribing counted, wizards wouldn't get any treasure for several levels). In any case, spells learned above those granted on level up are valued at 150gp per level (100gp per page+ 50gp per level copying charge) against WBL. It doesn't matter if they were learned by paying someone to copy, "trading" (paying by allowing the other to copy one of your spells), copying or capturing a defeated enemies book, finding a lost spellbook in a dungeon, copying for free from a friend, or copying from a magic scroll. Once the PC is in possession of the spell and can prepare it whenever they want, it is part of their gear and counts against WBL.

What if the spells are scribed in a Boccob's Blessed Book? They count the same. While the book saves on in character money, it doesn't alter the value of the spells withing, and further more the inherent magic of the book is valued separately and counts against WBL as well. Technically, the book is only an investment of convenience, as it provides no actual power increase to the player (not that the wizard class needs it). However, since most games (as far as I know) don't monitor WBL that stricly, instead simply awarding enough treasure to roughly equal the amount needed to bring the characters up to the next tier of the table, and then allow them to spend it as they wish, it goes unnoticed. This allows prudent spenders to gain more power by exceeding the WBL, such as when the WBL value of all the spells in the Blessed Book becomes greater than the price of buying the book iself in character.

Well, that was longer than I thought, let's see if anyone reads it...

[Gorbash]

The Wizard gains access to two spells of their choice for free. The rules do not say they get to copy them into their spellbook without paying the standard costs.

Well, rules also do not say that my character can't suddenly grow wings and fly or shoot lasers out of hs eyes, but somehow I don't think that's RAI.

I really can't believe that you think the only advantage of those 2 FREE spells is that you don't have to find a wizard to buy them off from him.

[Saph]

It never stops amazing me that the people who talk most about the uberness of Wizards always tend to be the same ones who oppose any restrictions on them. I wonder if there's a causal link there? :P

Anyway. The point of WBL is to maintain rough parity of useful stuff. Spells in a spellbook are useful stuff. Hence spells should count against your WBL. I wouldn't sweat the exact formula, though; just eyeball it. If the wizard's dominating, scale it up, if the wizard's overshadowed by everyone else, scale it down.

A wizard is NOT allowed to say "I spend a year trading spells until I've got every spell I want, and you shouldn't count that against my WBL." If he does, then the Rogue and Beguiler are just as entitled to reply: "Okay, since our stealth skills are so high that no normal living being can see us, we're spending the same year robbing everyone in the country, and you shouldn't count that against our WBL either. By my calculations we should earn 6,345,000 gold."
Wizard: "That's not fair! I'm just using my class features!"
Rogue & Beguiler: "So are we."

Wizard are allowed to trade spells. It requires roleplaying, it's part of what they do in adventures, and it's factored into their rewards. While they're doing it, the other members of the party should be getting their own rewards as well.

Finally, DMs should remember that acquiring new spells and the money to scribe them (beyond the free ones they get at level up, anyway) is a prime adventure hook for wizards. Why throw it away?

- Saph

[LordOkubo]

It never stops amazing me that the people who talk most about the uberness of Wizards always tend to be the same ones who oppose any restrictions on them. I wonder if there's a causal link there? :P

Anyway. The point of WBL is to maintain rough parity of useful stuff. Spells in a spellbook are useful stuff. Hence spells should count against your WBL. I wouldn't sweat the exact formula, though; just eyeball it. If the wizard's dominating, scale it up, if the wizard's overshadowed by everyone else, scale it down.

A wizard is NOT allowed to say "I spend a year trading spells until I've got every spell I want, and you shouldn't count that against my WBL." If he does, then the Rogue and Beguiler are just as entitled to reply: "Okay, since our stealth skills are so high that no normal living being can see us, we're spending the same year robbing everyone in the country, and you shouldn't count that against our WBL either. By my calculations we should earn 6,345,000 gold."
Wizard: "That's not fair! I'm just using my class features!"
Rogue & Beguiler: "So are we."

Wizard are allowed to trade spells. It requires roleplaying, it's part of what they do in adventures, and it's factored into their rewards. While they're doing it, the other members of the party should be getting their own rewards as well.

I'm sorry, can you point to a single person in this thread that advocates allowing Wizards to just claim previous (free) knowledge of a bunch of spells?

Or anyone who advocates not counting some part of spells toward WBL?

All I see is a bunch of people arguing about how much of a spell counts towards WBL, and one guy claiming that free costs money.

[Saph]

I'm sorry, can you point to a single person in this thread that advocates allowing Wizards to just claim previous (free) knowledge of a bunch of spells?

Or anyone who advocates not counting some part of spells toward WBL?

All I see is a bunch of people arguing about how much of a spell counts towards WBL, and one guy claiming that free costs money.

WBL is basically a DM tool. Unless you're starting a high-level character (which isn't really all that good an idea for most games) it isn't something you have to worry about much as a player.

As a DM, you can decide an exact formula for wizard spell value if you like, but for most campaigns it shouldn't really be an issue. The PCs get wealth; they spend their wealth on whatever they want, which for the wizard will include spells. The only time you need to tally up WBL is if you've got reason to believe that there are serious imbalances and that they're going to mess up the game.

- Saph

[LordOkubo]

WBL is basically a DM tool. Unless you're starting a high-level character (which isn't really all that good an idea for most games) it isn't something you have to worry about much as a player.

As a DM, you can decide an exact formula for wizard spell value if you like, but for most campaigns it shouldn't really be an issue. The PCs get wealth; they spend their wealth on whatever they want, which for the wizard will include spells. The only time you need to tally up WBL is if you've got reason to believe that there are serious imbalances and that they're going to mess up the game.

You made a huge post about how those bastard Wizard supporters keep advocating giving Wizards free spells for no reason at all?

Also, Starting at a higher level is a good idea for every single campaign. No Campaign should ever start at level 1, or even below 5.

[Zeful]

Yes, and the spell has a very different value then the "scroll" since you can get the spell without buying a scroll. This value is either 100gp per spell level, or 0gp if you are using a Blessed Book. So spells don't take up any WBL if you have a BBB.

Not true. The Ink no longer costs toward scribing, but that has nothing to do with WBL. WBL is for DM's to roughly track any character's wealth advancement. Not spending money on spells (or anything for that matter) doesn't make said spells (equipment, cash, etc.) not count toward WBL. The only spells that don't count toward WBL are the ones they gain through character advancement.

[LordOkubo]

Not true. The Ink no longer costs toward scribing, but that has nothing to do with WBL. WBL is for DM's to roughly track any character's wealth advancement. Not spending money on spells (or anything for that matter) doesn't make said spells (equipment, cash, etc.) not count toward WBL. The only spells that don't count toward WBL are the ones they gain through character advancement.

Okay let's try this again.

I have 40 billion spells in my BBB that I got there for free. HOW N PO}{

m]padg How much do they cost?

[Greg]

Okay let's try this again.

I have 40 billion spells in my BBB that I got there for free. HOW N PO}{

m]padg How much do they cost?
Surely you only get 2/level free..? Beyond that, you should be receiving scrolls as loot/purchasing them/being given them as rewards. Up to the DM, but wizards aren't needing to upgrade weapons and armour as they level.

[Zeful]

Okay let's try this again.

I have 40 billion spells in my BBB that I got there for free. HOW N PO}{

m]padg How much do they cost?

They cost nothing as you received them for free. They count against your WBL at 100gpx spell level.

[Greg]

They cost nothing as you received them for free. They count against your WBL at 100gpx spell level.
No, otherwise what's the point of the BBB (other than having 1000 pages)? Surely you pay for a scroll, but don't pay scribing costs. Bearing in mind it is possible to fail the spellcraft check to scribe the spell into your spellbook. This costs a minimum of 3,825 gp for a 9th level spell for a scroll.

[LordOkubo]

Surely you only get 2/level free..? Beyond that, you should be receiving scrolls as loot/purchasing them/being given them as rewards. Up to the DM, but wizards aren't needing to upgrade weapons and armour as they level.

You can trade for others, or buy them, or be given them. The point is that a level 1 spell can cost you 125gp, 150gp, 0gp, or really, any damn amount you want, so what is it's actual "WBL" value? Who the **** knows.


They cost nothing as you received them for free. They count against your WBL at 100gpx spell level.

That's great, why is it valued at that amount even though that's not it's cost, that's not the "standard" cost, and that's not really anything at all except you making up a number which you think is right.

Please point to anything anywhere in any book that even remotely implies that 100gp per spell level is it's WBL.

[LibraryOgre]

Here is what I have been arguing against.

If your game starts at or above 6th level, a Wizard does well to invest in a BBB. Since there is no scribing cost, and spells in a spellbook are not considered to have inherent monetary value (there is a cost to fill scribe the spell on a page, or the cost of it as a scroll), it is not a stretch to argue that your BBB is full... that you traded spells to fill your spellbook, using your two free as a base to start trading from. For 12,500gp, he's bought the equivalent of ten completely full spellbooks, which would otherwise cost 100,000gp (100gp/page*100pages*10books) Source for 100gp/page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#writingaNewSpellintoaSpellbook)

When the cost of scribing a spell is removed (via a BBB), there is no financial reason to assume that the BBB is not filled prior to play... if the character had access, then it is filled. He bartered his 2 free spells into 2 more, which were in turn bartered into 4 more, until the book is filled.

I argue that pre-game trading should not be assumed, only pre-game purchases. Whether a character is going to get a BBB or not (it is a good investment for a variety of reasons), he should have to pay for all beginning spells over his 2 free, at the rate of 50gp/level, as suggested in the SRD. If he doesn't have a BBB, then he's got a further cost of 100gp/page (and page = level), since his book doesn't allow free scribing.

[LibraryOgre]

You can trade for others, or buy them, or be given them. The point is that a level 1 spell can cost you 125gp, 150gp, 0gp, or really, any damn amount you want, so what is it's actual "WBL" value? Who the **** knows.

The SRD puts the value of copying a spell without trading at Spell level * 50gp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#addingSpellstoaWizardsSpellbook). It puts the cost of writing a spell into a spellbook at 100gp/level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#writingaNewSpellintoaSpellbook).

So, it's safe to say that the monetary value of any spell, in any spellbook, is 50gp/level.

[LordOkubo]

Here is what I have been arguing against.

If your game starts at or above 6th level, a Wizard does well to invest in a BBB. Since there is no scribing cost, and spells in a spellbook are not considered to have inherent monetary value (there is a cost to fill scribe the spell on a page, or the cost of it as a scroll), it is not a stretch to argue that your BBB is full... that you traded spells to fill your spellbook, using your two free as a base to start trading from. For 12,500gp, he's bought the equivalent of ten completely full spellbooks, which would otherwise cost 100,000gp (100gp/page*100pages*10books) Source for 100gp/page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#writingaNewSpellintoaSpellbook)

When the cost of scribing a spell is removed (via a BBB), there is no financial reason to assume that the BBB is not filled prior to play... if the character had access, then it is filled. He bartered his 2 free spells into 2 more, which were in turn bartered into 4 more, until the book is filled.

I argue that pre-game trading should not be assumed, only pre-game purchases. Whether a character is going to get a BBB or not (it is a good investment for a variety of reasons), he should have to pay for all beginning spells over his 2 free, at the rate of 50gp/level, as suggested in the SRD. If he doesn't have a BBB, then he's got a further cost of 100gp/page (and page = level), since his book doesn't allow free scribing.

Okay, once again, that's all wonderful a great, except:

1) How does this relate in any way shape or form to a Wizard that does all his trading in game? What is his WBL value?

2) No one ever claimed that you should give out infinite free trading before play begins. I personally give out infinite free trading (assuming they have access to a wide enough pool) of all spells lower then highest level, but even I accept that this is something I do for primarily common sense reasons, not rules reasons.

{Scrubbed}

[LordOkubo]

The SRD puts the value of copying a spell without trading at Spell level * 50gp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#addingSpellstoaWizardsSpellbook). It puts the cost of writing a spell into a spellbook at 100gp/level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#writingaNewSpellintoaSpellbook).

So, it's safe to say that the monetary value of any spell, in any spellbook, is 50gp/level.

Oh really? And yet that isn't the number the last poster stated when he was making up his bull**** numbers.

I can see an argument for 50gp, but honestly, if it's in a BBB, it has a WBL value of 0. The BBB is the WBL value, anything over that is part of "disposable" WBL, the equivalent of everyone else's scrolls or wands or staffs. Of course if the Wizard spends more then the budgeted amount on spells, then the extra is subtracted from WBL.

[LibraryOgre]

Okay, once again, that's all wonderful a great, except:

1) How does this relate in any way shape or form to a Wizard that does all his trading in game? What is his WBL value?

I would leave it at 50gp/level of spell. That's the established monetary value for a spell, no matter how it is acquired.


2) No one ever claimed that you should give out infinite free trading before play begins. I personally give out infinite free trading (assuming they have access to a wide enough pool) of all spells lower then highest level, but even I accept that this is something I do for primarily common sense reasons, not rules reasons.

By the rules, what stops them? I mentioned BBB abuse, and my definition is claiming that you traded for a bunch of spells before the game began, without them being reflected in WBL.


3) Anyone who fills their entire BBB before play for a level 16 or lower character is the stupidest person alive and deserves to be shot repeatedly in the head. Please actually suggest something that is in some way actually valid.

Why? A second BBB costs only slightly more than filling a second spellbook (2500gp difference), and has far more pages.

[LordOkubo]

{Scrubbed}

[Zeful]

You can trade for others, or buy them, or be given them. The point is that a level 1 spell can cost you 125gp, 150gp, 0gp, or really, any damn amount you want, so what is it's actual "WBL" value? Who the **** knows.
The WBL value is the cost it would take to buy the scroll at 50gp xspell level x caster level plus the cost it would take to scribe it into a normal spell book, which according to this poster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4731994&postcount=12) is 50 gp per page. Every spell takes 1 page per spell level so scribing costs 50gp per spell level. The 100gp per spell level is simply applying the additive property to the two equations and discounting the caster level of the scroll's creator (which everybody else has been doing oddly).
(50*n)+(50*n)=100*n
In other words the math isn't made up.


That's great, why is it valued at that amount even though that's not it's cost, that's not the "standard" cost, and that's not really anything at all except you making up a number which you think is right.
True but these are the numbers every body else has been using. And they are apparently wrong. So the actual WBL total is 50gp*SL*CL+100gp*SL or discounting the Caster level it is 150*spell level.


I can see an argument for 50gp, but honestly, if it's in a BBB, it has a WBL value of 0. The BBB is the WBL value, anything over that is part of "disposable" WBL, the equivalent of everyone else's scrolls or wands or staffs. Of course if the Wizard spends more then the budgeted amount on spells, then the extra is subtracted from WBL.
Incorrect, the only spells that don't count against WBL are the spells a wizard gets from advancement in the wizard class, 2 spells a level of any spell levels he can cast. Every other spell he gets from any source in any fashion count against WBL, even if had spent no gold to acquire them. This is like a Rouge stealing a +5 magic dagger rather than paying for one. The cost of the dagger is subtracted from his WBL, despite not paying for it.

[Glimbur]

A lot of the really atrociously broken builds start by taking a level 1 Wizard and selling their "free" spellbook for substantial wealth.

That's a good idea... if you're only facing one dungeon and you have to do it in a day at first level. It's a decent trick for one shot characters; the thread about a solo level one character has had this mentioned. However, after that adventure is over and the war dogs you bought with that cash are dead, you are a commoner with a good will save until you can get a spell book, and those are expensive at first level.

Clericzilla doesn't sell his spellbook [doesn't have one], nor does the druid. I'm far too lazy to compile a list, as that'd require defining "broken" and counting a lot of builds, but I disagree with your contention.

[LordOkubo]

The WBL value is the cost it would take to buy the scroll at 50gp xspell level x caster level plus the cost it would take to scribe it into a normal spell book, which according to this poster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4731994&postcount=12) is 50 gp per page. Every spell takes 1 page per spell level so scribing costs 50gp per spell level. The 100gp per spell level is simply applying the additive property to the two equations and discounting the caster level of the scroll's creator (which everybody else has been doing oddly).
(50*n)+(50*n)=100*n
In other words the math isn't made up.

Well here's some Math for you. You are wrong x 1000.

1) You don't need to buy a scroll to get the spell, and it's the worst possible way to do it, therefore it's a terrible measure of value. That's like saying that buying Masterwork Greatsword subtracts 525gp from WBL because that's the maximum value you might buy it for if you rolled the absolute worst on an appraise check.

Whatever the WBL is it should be based on the "standard" cost, not the absolute worst.

2) Spells cost 100gp in Ink per page to inscribe not 50gp, and no one in the entire thread except you right now has claimed otherwise.

3) See there is this part of the money you get, that is supposed to be spent on consumables, and is not part of your WBL. Everyone in the entire thread agrees that some part of the cost of spells is part of this number, and not WBL.


True but these are the numbers every body else has been using. And they are apparently wrong. So the actual WBL total is 50gp*SL*CL+100gp*SL or discounting the Caster level it is 150*spell level.

1) No one else was using these numbers.

2) Thank you for once again missing the point that just like every potion the Fighter has ever consumed is not part of WBL, every short term cost on consumable material is not part of the Wizard's WBL.


Incorrect, the only spells that don't count against WBL are the spells a wizard gets from advancement in the wizard class, 2 spells a level of any spell levels he can cast. Every other spell he gets from any source in any fashion count against WBL, even if had spent no gold to acquire them. This is like a Rouge stealing a +5 magic dagger rather than paying for one. The cost of the dagger is subtracted from his WBL, despite not paying for it.

1) Please provide any kind of evidence, even a single citation that implies or states that spells in a spellbook count towards WBL instead of, oh I don't know, disposable Wealth.

2) No it is not like claiming the rogue can steal a +5 Magic dagger and not count it towards WBL. It is like claiming that spending 12,500gp on a Book who's sole purpose is to reduce the cost of spells reduces the cost of spells.

3) Also, it's four free spells of every level he can cast, except possibly his most recent level where it may be two, and definitely level 0/1 where it is all spells and 5 + Starting Int modifier, respectively.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

2) No it is not like claiming the rogue can steal a +5 Magic dagger and not count it towards WBL. It is like claiming that spending 12,500gp on a Book who's sole purpose is to reduce the cost of spells reduces the cost of spells.This is the part of this I don't get, and maybe it's because I'm a player and not a GM, but if the Rogue puts in the effort to get more money than the rest of the party, shouldn't he have more money than the rest of the party? In my groups we devide up rewards equally, unless something is much more valuable to one member than the others, in which case we usually take it out of the next haul(for example, if we only capture a spellbook, the wizard gets it, then loses his share next time, since it is far more valuable to him than it's "sell value" would indicate). If the Rogue steals a portion of our shares, it's accepted that he will have more money than the rest of us, because he spent character resources on getting more loot. Yes, it may not be perfect, but that's better than penalizing characters for trying to get money. Do you all stint Artificers, too?

[LibraryOgre]

You in other words, you brought it up and therefore it is SERIZ BIZNEZ, and needs to be shut down. How about, what stops them from doing it is that you can't trade for spells unless the DM tells you you can. Because you don't control NPCs.

I brought it up. Sstoopidtallkid objected. I clarified. You flamed.

[Zeful]

1) You don't need to buy a scroll to get the spell, and it's the worst possible way to do it, therefore it's a terrible measure of value. That's like saying that buying Masterwork Greatsword subtracts 525gp from WBL because that's the maximum value you might buy it for if you rolled the absolute worst on an appraise check.

Whatever the WBL is it should be based on the "standard" cost, not the absolute worst.

The standard cost up for debate. Is it the 50gp per spell level to "buy" it out of another wizard's spellbook? Or the cost of a scroll which is much much higher.


2) Spells cost 100gp in Ink per page to inscribe not 50gp, and no one in the entire thread except you right now has claimed otherwise.
And I admit I'm wrong about the scribing cost per page.


3) See there is this part of the money you get, that is supposed to be spent on consumables, and is not part of your WBL. Everyone in the entire thread agrees that some part of the cost of spells is part of this number, and not WBL.
I don't really understand what your saying here but if you could please clarify, I'm confused.



2) Thank you for once again missing the point that just like every potion the Fighter has ever consumed is not part of WBL, every short term cost on consumable material is not part of the Wizard's WBL.
Optimum words: Short Term and Consumable. Spells in spell books are neither.


1) Please provide any kind of evidence, even a single citation that implies or states that spells in a spellbook count towards WBL instead of, oh I don't know, disposable Wealth.Having looked through my DMG and SRD and unable to find my PHb I cannot find a section (or reference) of disposable wealth. If you could please point out a section that references disposable wealth, I will be more than happy to read it and provide a rebuttal or agreement.
Now as for your request, in the Wizards And Treasure section, on page 54. It states that you "subtract the value of a spellbook and material components (see selling a Spellbook page 179 of the PHb)from the average treasure value[...]"
Selling a spellbook (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#sellingaSpellbook) states:

Captured spellbooks can be sold for a gp amount equal to one-half the cost of purchasing and inscribing the spells within (that is, one-half of 100 gp per page of spells). A spellbook entirely filled with spells (that is, with one hundred pages of spells inscribed in it) is worth 5,000 gp.
Granted that part is contridicting itself (is half cost of purchased spells+50gp a page or just 5000gp?) but both sections seem to indicate that a wizard's spellbook is to be treated like any other piece of gear in realtion to WBL.


3) Also, it's four free spells of every level he can cast, except possibly his most recent level where it may be two, and definitely level 0/1 where it is all spells and 5 + Starting Int modifier, respectively.
Actually (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#spellbooks), it's all 0-level spells, 3+Int mod 1st level spells. Then two spells of any level they can cast every time they gain a level in wizard (though I agree that many times it good to place it in your highest spell levels).

[Aquillion]

Let's get the context for that quote: The Wizard gains access to two spells of their choice for free. The rules do not say they get to copy them into their spellbook without paying the standard costs.
Actually, it specifically does:

Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook

Once a wizard understands a new spell, she can record it into her spellbook.
Time

The process takes 24 hours, regardless of the spell’s level.
Space in the Spellbook

A spell takes up one page of the spellbook per spell level. Even a 0-level spell (cantrip) takes one page. A spellbook has one hundred pages.
Materials and Costs

Materials for writing the spell cost 100 gp per page.

Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for the spells she gains for free at each new level.
The spells a wizard gains from their class features go directly and instantly into the wizard's book, completely and 100% free of all costs of any sort (aside from the cost of the pages themselves, of course.)

You may not like this, and are free to houserule otherwise; but the RAW are very, very clear. I don't understand how you could have missed this, since the price of scribing a spell into a spellbook is listed in only one point of the rules, and that point specifically says wizards don't pay to scribe their two freebies.

[LordOkubo]

This is the part of this I don't get, and maybe it's because I'm a player and not a GM, but if the Rogue puts in the effort to get more money than the rest of the party, shouldn't he have more money than the rest of the party? In my groups we devide up rewards equally, unless something is much more valuable to one member than the others, in which case we usually take it out of the next haul(for example, if we only capture a spellbook, the wizard gets it, then loses his share next time, since it is far more valuable to him than it's "sell value" would indicate). If the Rogue steals a portion of our shares, it's accepted that he will have more money than the rest of us, because he spent character resources on getting more loot. Yes, it may not be perfect, but that's better than penalizing characters for trying to get money. Do you all stint Artificers, too?

1) For sane people, it's the difference between doing it in game and claiming to have done it in the past. While no even remotely decent DM (IE people outside of this thread, since this thread is made of FailDM) would arbitrarily subtract from wealth because a rogue stole something or a Wizard traded for a spell, if you are starting a game at level 10, you start having payed for your spells and with WBL, not WBL + the 500 Epic items my Rogue totally stole, yes he totally did.

2) Yes they probably do, I have met more then one person that explicitly said: "Of course if you have an Artificer in your party, and so can craft everything, you get half as much Wealth as normal. If I gave you normal wealth you'd have too much wealth!"

[Zeful]

Aquillion, I would like to point out that it is actually hard to miss because it's not in the wizard's class section, where it belongs.

[Fizban]

3) See there is this part of the money you get, that is supposed to be spent on consumables, and is not part of your WBL. Everyone in the entire thread agrees that some part of the cost of spells is part of this number, and not WBL.
I disagree. A spell in a book that you can prepare from daily is a piece of permanent gear, and so costs against WBL.

[LordOkubo]

The standard cost up for debate. Is it the 50gp per spell level to "buy" it out of another wizard's spellbook? Or the cost of a scroll which is much much higher.

No, the Standard cost is not up for debate. The standard cost is 50gp per page, you know, the price of getting the spell, as opposed to a scroll of the spell which has other functions beyond that of the spell.


I don't really understand what your saying here but if you could please clarify, I'm confused.

If you play the game by RAW, you gain more Wealth at every level then WBL. The extra wealth is there to compensate for Fighters buying potions of Enlarge Person, Rogues buying wands of Haste (and Acid Flasks), and Wizards buying material components and ink for inscribing spells.


Optimum words: Short Term and Consumable. Spells in spell books are neither.

No, but one time use Inks are consumable, and when you spend 150gp per spell level to create something that is only valued at 50gp in the market, it is probably a safe assumption that some part of that is counted as "consumable" since it's wealth is very definitely consumed somewhere in the process.


Having looked through my DMG and SRD and unable to find my PHb I cannot find a section (or reference) of disposable wealth. If you could please point out a section that references disposable wealth, I will be more than happy to read it and provide a rebuttal or agreement.

It's very simple, look on page 135 of the DMG, there it has WBL.

Then look on page 51 at table 3-3 called "Treasure values per encounter."

If you multiply that number times the number of encounters per level, you will get a number greater then WBL. The explanation is above the table where it says: "[stuff about 14 encounters and rolling average on the treasure tables ensuring PCs will be at WBL] Assuming that the PCs expend some resources such as potions and scrolls during these encounters."

The point being that you gain more then WBL, and so if you don't use any other form of expendable item, then it is well within common sense to treat material components and, oh I don't know, one use items like expensive ink, as part of that disposable amount of wealth.


Now as for your request, in the Wizards And Treasure section, on page 54. It states that you "subtract the value of a spellbook and material components (see selling a Spellbook page 179 of the PHb)from the average treasure value[...]"
Selling a spellbook (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#sellingaSpellbook) states:

Granted that part is contridicting itself (is half cost of purchased spells+50gp a page or just 5000gp?) but both sections seem to indicate that a wizard's spellbook is to be treated like any other piece of gear in realtion to WBL.

No it's not really contradicting itself, because once again, purchasing spells is a variable cost of which 0gp is a valid amount. And as such, it is the most commonly used amount.

No one is claiming that spellbooks should not be counted as part of WBL. But see, when you have something that cost 10000gp in expensive inks, and now sells at 5000gp. What you have is an item in which the spells themselves have no intrinsic worth. (Or rather, used inks are useless, and scribed spells have an intrinsic worth of exactly 50gp per page.)

However when you have a BBB that cost 12,500gp to buy, and has no value or purpose except to reduce the cost of spells, and you then claim that 100 pages of spells in a BBB costs 12,500gp more then the same spells in a regular book, what you have is retardation.

In summary: I have 5 spellbooks all filled, this should subtract from my WBL total which of the following amounts:

A) 75,000gp plus some bull**** CL stuff that makes it variable, also makes the math harder and really just serves to prove that I have no idea that buying scrolls is not used as a method of gaining access to spells.
B) 75,000gp, because every cent you spend is a cent that subtracts from WBL, ignore those tables in the DMG.
C) 50,000gp, because spells have no value, and the ink cost this much.
D) 25,000gp, because this is the correct answer, as explained in the freaking rules.

Now, situation two: I have the exact same spells as above, but in a Boccob's Blessed Book this time. An item I paid 12,500gp for that serves no purpose other then to reduce the cost of spells.

A) 87,500gp plus CL stuff, because I really hate Wizards, and the stuff in situation 1 about scrolls.
B) 37,500gp, because every cent you spend, yadda yadda yadda.
C) 12,500gp, because spells have no value and the book cost this much.
D) 37,500gp, because spells have a value of 50gp per page, and I refuse to believe that the BBB doesn't have some super secret power besides lowering spell costs.
E) 12,500gp, because I spent WBL on a magic item that makes spells cheaper if you get a lot of them, and so I save some money.


Actually (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#spellbooks), it's all 0-level spells, 3+Int mod 1st level spells. Then two spells of any level they can cast every time they gain a level in wizard (though I agree that many times it good to place it in your highest spell levels).

I was assuming even a modicum of intelligence. Yes if you are retarded it could work out to some other amount.

[LordOkubo]

I disagree. A spell in a book that you can prepare from daily is a piece of permanent gear, and so costs against WBL.

Everyone agrees that some part IE liek the freaking ink that you don't get to use again.

Frankly you can disagree if you want, but just like the person I was replying to, that makes you wrong, since the rules very clearly explain the value of spells, and it is less then the value of gaining access to those spells (by any method other then trading for free spells) and the inks used to write them.

[Greg]

So what you're saying is that a fighter drinking a potion, becoming enlarged for a short period of time, then going back to normal and losing the potion is exactly the same as a wizard finding a scroll, scribing it into his spellbook and being able to cast it again and again because he uses up ink?

That makes no sense to me.

A wizard scribing a spell that he/she can use again is more like a fighter buying a sword that he/she can use again. Which is not a consumable. Swords don't get used up, neither do spells in your spellbook.

[LordOkubo]

So what you're saying is that a fighter drinking a potion, becoming enlarged for a short period of time, then going back to normal and losing the potion is exactly the same as a wizard finding a scroll, scribing it into his spellbook and being able to cast it again and again because he uses up ink?

That makes no sense to me.

A wizard scribing a spell that he/she can use again is more like a fighter buying a sword that he/she can use again. Which is not a consumable. Swords don't get used up, neither do spells in your spellbook.

No what I am saying over and over again, is that spells have a value of 50gp per spell level, not OMFGWTFBBQ OVER 9000! 750gp per spell level.

I am saying that a single ninth level spell reduces the Wizard's WBL by 450gp as it very clearly explains in the book, not by 28,925gp.

How is this confusing?