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Skyserpent
2008-08-17, 03:42 PM
Okay, now 4e has an interesting Multiclass system to say the least. Some people like it, some people hate it. But I'm not here to talk about that.

What I AM here to talk about is the whole idea of synergistic multiclassing.

The synergy concept is pretty basic and understandable, you don't want to choose a pair of classes with abilities that are unrelated, as that would require you to spread out your ability scores too much.

Now, question: How bad is it, really? Are there class combinations that just downright fail hard? I mean, Fighter Wizard I hear is sub-par, but are there any combos that just CANNOT be played?

The idea that a class choice is fundamentally weaker than another seems to be something 4e is trying to avoid as a whole, but this multiclassing system seems to be open game for exactly that.

Starbuck_II
2008-08-17, 03:56 PM
Okay, now 4e has an interesting Multiclass system to say the least. Some people like it, some people hate it. But I'm not here to talk about that.

What I AM here to talk about is the whole idea of synergistic multiclassing.

The synergy concept is pretty basic and understandable, you don't want to choose a pair of classes with abilities that are unrelated, as that would require you to spread out your ability scores too much.

Now, question: How bad is it, really? Are there class combinations that just downright fail hard? I mean, Fighter Wizard I hear is sub-par, but are there any combos that just CANNOT be played?

The idea that a class choice is fundamentally weaker than another seems to be something 4e is trying to avoid as a whole, but this multiclassing system seems to be open game for exactly that.

No Fighter/Wiz Works. But you need good Int (obviously).
Example, Utilities like Shield are great.

1of3
2008-08-17, 04:11 PM
It depends very much what you take for your second class and how much you want.

Obviously you need certain stats at 13+ to even start multiclassing. If you have the stat and just want the very first MC feat, you're fine with almost any combination, since dips most do not require a stat for rolling. (Wizard and Warlock being the exceptions.)

The same counts for most utility powers and certain attacks (like Weapon of the Gods, Reign of Steel...). - No roll, no further synergy required.

Edea
2008-08-17, 04:15 PM
Not so much your raw ability scores...as long as you keep it down to two, you should be fine. I think all of the available multiclassing options have at maximum 2 to-hit stats, so in theory they should all function as least passably well. It's better to focus on a multiclass where one of the primary to-hit stats happens to be the secondary of the other class (such as warlord/wizard or warlock/wizard), but it's not necessary.

However...IMO you need to be careful about Weapon Powers vs. Implement powers in your repertoire, especially in the late game. One way the Fighter/Wizard multiclass gets around this is the Wizard of the Spiral Tower Paragon Path.

As for utilities, these do not normally require to-hit rolls, and thus function pretty much regardless of your multiclass.

ghost_warlock
2008-08-17, 11:45 PM
Some classes are certainly easier to multiclass with than others. Probably the easiest are fighter, rogue, warlord, and wizard since all of their to-hit abilities rely on a single stat (Str, Dex, Str and Int respectably).

Clerics, Paladins, Rangers, and Warlocks are a bit tougher since they have powers that rely on different to-hit stats. This can be avoided somewhat since players can choose to rely only on a certain stat if desired.

Since every class also has at least one stat that boosts their powers, it's generally best to aim for a multiclass that synergies either with the primary stat or the boost stat. A fighter/wizard multiclass would do fine by focusing on Str & Int with Dex or Wis as a secondary stat, for instance.

Most races have bonuses to two stats so it's not too hard to get 16-18's in both of your primary stats and a 13-14 in your secondary stat right out of the box.

Note that some class options can be a lot tougher to multiclass with/severly limit your options. For example, star pact warlocks typically need good scores in both Con and Cha, with Int as a secondary stat, if they plan on taking many of their pact powers/their paragon path. This means that their only ideal multiclass is paladin (Cha to-hit) or maybe wizard (relying on their secondary stat, Int, to-hit). The problem with taking the paladin multiclass feat is that they also need a 13 Str to do so, which is stretching their ability scores a bit thin, since they'll probably want Str 13+, Con 16-18, Int 12+, Cha 16-18.

One multiclass combination I think would be fun/cool/flavorful/appropriate would be warlock/rogue, but this is less than optimal since the only primary stats these classes have in common are Cha, and then only for artful dodger/fey pact.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-18, 12:12 AM
One multiclass combination I think would be fun/cool/flavorful/appropriate would be warlock/rogue, but this is less than optimal since the only primary stats these classes have in common are Cha, and then only for artful dodger/fey pact.

Though I'd have to ask: why MC? You can already take Thievery as a Warlock Skill (I don't know why). Besides, if you MC Rogue, you can get the occasional Sneak Attack with your Pact Blade and just use the MC Utility to get a nifty power.

Honestly, Warlocks do made better thieves than Rogues do. Weird eh?

ghost_warlock
2008-08-18, 12:18 AM
Though I'd have to ask: why MC? You can already take Thievery as a Warlock Skill (I don't know why). Besides, if you MC Rogue, you can get the occasional Sneak Attack with your Pact Blade and just use the MC Utility to get a nifty power.

Primarily, the reasons to go rogue would be a striker boost in the form of SA, even if it's limited in uses, as well as the stealth utilities. Stealth isn't a class skill for warlocks, but there's so few "Take Me! Take Me!" feats for warlocks it wouldn't be suboptimal to take Skill Training.


Honestly, Warlocks do made better thieves than Rogues do. Weird eh?
:smallconfused: Um, no.
Warlocks don't make better thieves than rogues because 1) Dex, the key Thievery stat, is a dump stat for warlocks and 2) warlocks don't have much in the way of utility powers that buff thievery. Unless you're a rogue who chooses to be crappy at Thievery, you're going to be better at it than a warlock.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-18, 12:39 AM
Warlocks don't make better thieves than rogues because 1) Dex, the key Thievery stat, is a dump stat for warlocks and 2) warlocks don't have much in the way of utility powers that buff thievery. Unless you're a rogue who chooses to be crappy at Thievery, you're going to be better at it than a warlock.

Beguiling Tongue? Shadow Form? Those are pretty good thieving utilities, if you ask me. Heck, they have an at-will that makes them Invisible to a single target, and when they move three squares, they gain mobile concealment.

I'll say Feylock with CHA, DEX, INT as their three stats and Skill Training (Stealth) is going to make a pretty impressive thief. To make life easier, let's call him an Eladrin Feylock with Stealth from Eladrin Education.

1) Can he use Stealth? Yes
2) Can he use Thievery? Yes

Seriously, I can stat this guy out if you want. The only place he fails is in doing high DPR, though he is able to do impressive damage alone, while I Rogue will need a flanking buddy for long term DPR.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-18, 01:39 AM
Beguiling Tongue? Shadow Form? Those are pretty good thieving utilities, if you ask me. Heck, they have an at-will that makes them Invisible to a single target, and when they move three squares, they gain mobile concealment.

I'll say Feylock with CHA, DEX, INT as their three stats and Skill Training (Stealth) is going to make a pretty impressive thief. To make life easier, let's call him an Eladrin Feylock with Stealth from Eladrin Education.

1) Can he use Stealth? Yes
2) Can he use Thievery? Yes

Seriously, I can stat this guy out if you want. The only place he fails is in doing high DPR, though he is able to do impressive damage alone, while I Rogue will need a flanking buddy for long term DPR.

It depends on how you use them. Can Warlocks make better sneaks than Rogues? Yes, they actually can because for one thing, they have a class feature that grants them concealment just for moving. I suppose if you've decided you just want to be Sneaky McCantFindMe, you can't get much more optimal than a Drow Fey Pact Warlock with Sneak of Shadows who prioritizes Charisma and Dexterity at the expense of Intelligence and takes the Master Infiltrator paragon path and maybe grabs something like Hide in Plain Sight, too.

Of course, de-emphasizing Intelligence is going to hurt your overall usefulness somewhat. You'll also never match a Rogue at pickpocketing because Nimble Fingers + Dangerous Theft >>>>> anything you can ever do in that area.

Crow
2008-08-18, 01:45 AM
Ranger/Warlock blows pretty hard.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-18, 01:53 AM
It depends on how you use them. Can Warlocks make better sneaks than Rogues? Yes, they actually can because for one thing, they have a class feature that grants them concealment just for moving. I suppose if you've decided you just want to be Sneaky McCantFindMe, you can't get much more optimal than a Drow Fey Pact Warlock with Sneak of Shadows who prioritizes Charisma and Dexterity at the expense of Intelligence and takes the Master Infiltrator paragon path and maybe grabs something like Hide in Plain Sight, too.

Of course, de-emphasizing Intelligence is going to hurt your overall usefulness somewhat. You'll also never match a Rogue at pickpocketing because Nimble Fingers + Dangerous Theft >>>>> anything you can ever do in that area.

True about the pick pocketing, of course, but even without Sneak of the Shadows, look here:

Eladrin Feypact (using standard array)
STR 10
DEX 16
CON 11
INT 14
WIS 13
CHA 16

That's a pretty good Feylock Build to start (note that the INT bonuses aren't that huge for Feylock powers), and it outmasters the straight Rogue on several fronts:
1) Sneaking - yeah, mobile Concealment, at-will Invisibilty. Also, Shadow Form, if you want it, not to mention Spider Climb.
2) Bluffing - Beguiling Tongue, Bluff as a class skill.
3) Escaping - Fey Step, and various other teleportation powers. Find me a better way to get out of binds!
4) Traps - Shadow Form bypasses them nicely, but aside from that, equal.

Note, as well, that several Rogue utilities can be acquired as feats. True, you can't get Pick Pockets as well as a Rogue can, but that's about it. Theoretically you'll also fall behind on DEX based skills unless you sack INT entirely (which is really tempting for the Feylock, to be honest), but when you tack on the supernatural aspects of the Warlock, I'll have to say it comes to close to equal.

This here was just a proof of concept. Yes, you can optimize the crap out of a Rogue and make the superior counterexample, but look how good a completely Core Warlock is at thieving, right out of the box! If he decided to MC, then he'd probably be even better.

EDIT:

Ranger/Warlock blows pretty hard.
Actually, I think Warlock-Ranger blows harder. None of the Ranger attacks are remotely useful for a Warlock, while some of the Warlock powers might be helpful for the Ranger (CON isn't a bad stat to buff, and Warlock offers some non-AC targeters).

Wizard-Fighter does too, though Fighter-Wizard is OK.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-18, 02:02 AM
Note, as well, that several Rogue utilities can be acquired as feats. True, you can't get Pick Pockets as well as a Rogue can, but that's about it. Theoretically you'll also fall behind on DEX based skills unless you sack INT entirely (which is really tempting for the Feylock, to be honest), but when you tack on the supernatural aspects of the Warlock, I'll have to say it comes to close to equal.

No, I'd say you pretty much have to sack Intelligence at least to some rather significant degree, because in the late game, the Rogue starts to have a lot of tricks that make hiding possible even when hiding isn't possible. If you want to be a sneak, you're going to have to bite the bullet and actually be a sneak somewhat at the expense of your magic.

At the very least, you can't have all of your cake and eat all of your cake, too. You're going to either have so-so Intelligence and so-so Dexterity, or one is going to be great while the other is blah. By contrast, the Rogue doesn't have to make such a choice -- she can pump Dexterity and either Strength or Charisma, depending on type, to the max while losing nothing for doing so, and as the game progresses, the relative importance of the Warlock's class feature diminishes somewhat with the appearance of powers that get around needing concealment or cover as well as magical items that grant invisibility briefly or for longer periods, depending.

ghost_warlock
2008-08-18, 02:06 AM
Beguiling Tongue? Shadow Form? Those are pretty good thieving utilities, if you ask me. Heck, they have an at-will that makes them Invisible to a single target, and when they move three squares, they gain mobile concealment.

Beguiling Tongue is useful, yes. But we're not debating whether a warlock can be an effective liar.

Shadow Form is a daily. Great, so you've successfully snuck in, how are you going to get back out?

Eyebite is useless for being sneaky because it automatically alerts people that "hey, someone I can't see is attacking me!" Any reasonably intelligent guard is going to call for reinforcements and the place will soon be crawling with guardsmen which is exactly opposite of what you'd want. A wizard could do better than eyebite with an at-will cantrip (ghost sound used as a quiet distracting, which can be dismissed by the guard as 'hearing things,' 'nerves,' or 'the wind' as opposed to 'ow, I just took damage!').

Shadow Walk is probably the best thieving tool warlocks have out-of-the-box, yes. But concealment doesn't penalize your opponent's ability to Spot you, simply allows you to make a Stealth check at the end of your movement. Concealment =/= invisibility. Just sneaking around in dim lighting would be just as good as using shadow walk, so far as Stealth is concerned and anybody can potentially do that.


I'll say Feylock with CHA, DEX, INT as their three stats and Skill Training (Stealth) is going to make a pretty impressive thief. To make life easier, let's call him an Eladrin Feylock with Stealth from Eladrin Education.

1) Can he use Stealth? Yes
2) Can he use Thievery? Yes

Seriously, I can stat this guy out if you want. The only place he fails is in doing high DPR, though he is able to do impressive damage alone, while I Rogue will need a flanking buddy for long term DPR.

At yet just about any rogue will still be a better thief.

To be a good thief, all a rogue has to do is select two class skills that are based on his primary attribute and which he will probably use often for other rogue-y things. Later, he can take one or more utilities that buff these skills and which he can also use to make him a better assassin. Moreover, most of the rogue utilities that make them good thieves are at-will or encounter powers whereas your warlock is relying on encounter and daily powers.

Your specific warlock build might be a good thief, but that doesn't make warlocks in general better thieves than rogues, which is what you're effectively claiming when you say that "warlocks make better thieves than rogues." Your claim simply isn't true and specially-built warlock does not in any way justify your claim. With some work I could make a wizard or even a cleric who's just about as good a thief as your warlock; doing so certainly wouldn't prove that wizards or clerics are better thieves than rogues.

Warlocks can, with some work, be good thieves. But this is a specific build based on thievery and not a typical example of a warlock character.

Tengu_temp
2008-08-18, 02:10 AM
Paladin/rogue. I dare you to find something good coming from this combo.

(Rogue/paladin could be more useful, since most rogues have good cha and many of paladin's powers base on it.)

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-18, 02:14 AM
Warlocks can, with some work, be good thieves. But this is a specific build based on thievery and not a typical example of a warlock character.

Ah, the truth comes out. Yes, I built a Warlock for Thievery. I can also build a Rogue for Stabbing. The point was that Warlocks do not need MC to become good thieves - they make very good thieves out of the box. It's kind of weird how good Warlocks can be at stealthing, to be frank.

A point on Eyebite: it's not for proactive stealth, it's for reactive stealth. If a guard spots you, and you can get into Eyebite range, then he immediately loses you again (Total Concealment + Shadow Walk FTW). This is an excellent escape tool, particularly if you are a Stealth-optimized Warlock. Yes, this is limited to when only a single guard can see you, but let's be honest - a Rogue in the same situation would have to kill the guard to return to hiding; a Warlock needs to spend no more than a Standard Action.

EDIT:

Paladin/rogue. I dare you to find something good coming from this combo.

Hmm... Halfling Rapier & Board Paladin-Rogue. Gets some extra striking power, and perhaps some nice utilities. I think I could make that work to OK, if no higher :smallcool:

ghost_warlock
2008-08-18, 02:30 AM
A point on Eyebite: it's not for proactive stealth, it's for reactive stealth. If a guard spots you, and you can get into Eyebite range, then he immediately loses you again (Total Concealment + Shadow Walk FTW). This is an excellent escape tool, particularly if you are a Stealth-optimized Warlock. Yes, this is limited to when only a single guard can see you, but let's be honest - a Rogue in the same situation would have to kill the guard to return to hiding; a Warlock needs to spend no more than a Standard Action.

Well the rogue could, you know, use a move action to run. Turn around a corner, duck behind a pillar, or whatever and you're out of LoS and can stealth again.


Ah, the truth comes out. Yes, I built a Warlock for Thievery. I can also build a Rogue for Stabbing. The point was that Warlocks do not need MC to become good thieves - they make very good thieves out of the box. It's kind of weird how good Warlocks can be at stealthing, to be frank.

Nobody's debating the fact that warlocks can be good at stealth.

We're debating this:

Honestly, Warlocks do made better thieves than Rogues do. Weird eh?

Sorry, you're simply wrong. Warlocks are not better thieves than rogues. Sure, a couple warlocks with specific builds may be as good, or maybe better, than your average rogue at stealth/thievery but these guys are by no means the rule.

This is not a case where specific trumps general. :smalltongue:

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-18, 02:44 AM
Sorry, you're simply wrong. Warlocks are not better thieves than rogues. Sure, a couple warlocks with specific builds may be as good, or maybe better, than your average rogue at stealth/thievery but these guys are by no means the rule.

This is not a case where specific trumps general. :smalltongue:

I bow to your superior Thread Fu. You have won an argument on the Internet, congratulations :smallwink:

In the meantime, I'll enjoy running circles around the party Rogue with my Eladrin Feylock, even though he's not the "rule" :smalltongue:

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-18, 04:42 AM
Paladin/rogue. I dare you to find something good coming from this combo.

I have a vague idea involving a paladin who prioritizes Dexterity and Charisma (with Wisdom a distant third, which is the part that kind of hurts) and takes the Shadow Assassin paragon path. Mark them, and then they either have to attack you and take your Dexterity modifier as damage on every miss ... or suffer a to-hit penalty and take damage every time they attack anyone else.

I suppose it's not probably not actually better than, or necessarily even as good as, a standard paladin, though.

Totally Guy
2008-08-18, 05:08 AM
Does a warlock curse stack with sneak attack damage for the Warlock that goes Rogue?

ghost_warlock
2008-08-18, 05:12 AM
Does a warlock curse stack with sneak attack damage for the Warlock that goes Rogue?

Don't you have to attack with a weapon to gain SA damage and with a warlock attack to gain curse damage? If so, you can only use one or the other in a round without using an action point and making both a spell and a weapon attack.

Dhavaer
2008-08-18, 05:18 AM
Don't you have to attack with a weapon to gain SA damage and with a warlock attack to gain curse damage?

Nope. Sneak Attack does require you to use a particular weapon, but Warlock's Curse only requires you to deal damage to the opponent.

Totally Guy
2008-08-18, 06:52 AM
So it would need to be a rogue power or a basic melee. I'm just trying to stacke the striker extra damage mechanics. The sneak attack does 1D6 and the Quarry does 1D6 but both can only be used once per encounter. The warlock curse doesn't carry over through multiclassing.

Maybe a ranger becoming a rogue would work better.

Dhavaer
2008-08-18, 06:54 AM
The sneak attack does 1D6 and the Quarry does 1D6 but both can only be used once per encounter.

Sneak Attack does 2d6 to start with.

Totally Guy
2008-08-18, 06:59 AM
Sneak Attack does 2d6 to start with.

Oh nice. I thought they errata'd multiclass quarry to match the rogue power. That's what I'd have done.

Yakk
2008-08-18, 09:08 AM
Sneak Attack requires other annoyances -- weapon restrictions, and combat advantage.

Of course, Sneak Attack as a 1/encounter has other advantages -- picking to use it after you hit...

...

Most classes have a "pick 1 of 2" system.

For each pair of {Str, Con}, {Dex, Int}, {Wis, Cha}, they use one of the two. Ideally you want a class that uses your primary attribute as their primary attribute -- but failing that, a class whose primary attribute lines up with a secondary one of yours is good enough.

Heavy-armor classes are allowed to skip {Dex, Int} and grab a different stat, generally. (Paladin, Cleric, Fighter).

wodan46
2008-08-18, 09:31 AM
There is the Hexhammer build, which consists of a Infernal Warlock with Con and Str as its primary and Int as a secondary multiclasses into Fighter, and grabs a Maul, Hammer Rhythm, the Iron Vanguard PP, and a couple of other fighter powers. The advantage is that cursing has no requirement for you to use warlock or arcane powers, you can deploy it and trigger it just by beating someone to death with a maul.

Totally Guy
2008-08-18, 12:39 PM
There is the Hexhammer build, which consists of a Infernal Warlock with Con and Str as its primary and Int as a secondary multiclasses into Fighter, and grabs a Maul, Hammer Rhythm, the Iron Vanguard PP, and a couple of other fighter powers. The advantage is that cursing has no requirement for you to use warlock or arcane powers, you can deploy it and trigger it just by beating someone to death with a maul.

Plus with high con and str you'd qualify for armour feats.

With reference to my previous post I just figured it out. The sneak atack multiclass feature can happen once for 2D6 and the Quarry can be activated twice upon 2 hits. You activate quarry at the start of your turn, take advantage of it for 1D6 then next turn you get to do it again for 1D6, then at the end of that turn it wears off.