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View Full Version : Help! My DM is really hard to work with...



TaintedLight
2008-08-18, 12:11 AM
Hi guys. You might remember the fiasco I talked about months ago with the ninja whose gender was switched, overpowered DMPCs stealing the spotlight, etc. in a campaign I was in? Well, I talked to my DM about it, and most of those issues have been worked out. We are going to start a new campaign in which we are using the Iron Kingdoms d20 campaign setting by Privateer Press, but warforged are not native to the setting. I asked my DM if he would consider importing them, but he said no. Now, being the (hopefully reasonable) kind of fellow that I am, I went and asked him why he couldn't just drop them into the setting and say they were originally assistants to wizards who needed feedback by intelligent assistants who could observe and evaluate their experiements, etc...

He finally relented after a long series of arguments and counters, but we have another problem. It seems like he has set up surprise house rules of which many of us are unaware before (changing the operations of bull rushes slightly, magic poisons that can affect warforged, NPCs with ridiculous land speeds, stats, and illegal numbers of ranks in skills, etc) and I never have any idea of how to approach any given situation because one of these surprise rules might come up and bite my ass when I really need a lucky break.

Third issue; with the exception of the warforged bit, he is almost always unmovable in his decisions. Now, I understand that the DM has executive decision making power, but D&D is a game with PLAYERS, too. Shouldn't we be able to protest what we all deem as ridiculous and have some say in the inclusion or exclusion of certain details? No player group wants to be railroaded constantly.

Last issue, I swear. The way he handles roleplaying with NPCs can be downright frustrating. One, his villains (and most plot-relevant NPCs) always have the same personality: infuriatingly vague, smug, and condescending to the PCs. All of them have that "I-know-something-you-really-should-know-but-don't-and-can't-possibly-at-this-point" kind of omniscience, where they are all abnormally perceptive. The second issue with NPCs also extends to PCs, and that would be the blatant feminism. All female NPCs are at least ECL 4+ above our level, female party members are favored with gear, roleplaying, etc, and female PCs are expected to have one of two archetypes: fiercely, militantly independent, or demure and man-dependent with no room for any other kind.

To Recap My Rant:
1. House Rule Surprises (and a refusal to allow me to look up the rule when I have a suspicion that there is some BS going on)
2. Refusal to let the players have any real influence
3. NPC monotony and sexism

I dont know anyone else who can really be a DM, and this guy is my best friend. I dont hate him, I'm not pissed at him, but he is so hard to influence on this issue. I have told him so many times that he will eventually drive the other players away with the iron fist approach, but he just waves it off.

What Do I Do?:smalleek:

BRC
2008-08-18, 12:15 AM
Well, as the DM he has the right to Houserule anything he wants, however, I feel that he should announce all houserules ahead of time, preferably provide a sheet with said houserules on it. The exception would be if he's fixing an obvious exploit, but still.

The second two just sound like some Bad DMing. I dunno what to say, usually I recommend Pizza of DM bribery, but who knows if that will work here.

TaintedLight
2008-08-18, 12:29 AM
Oh, there was one other problem I forgot:

He LOVES to provide us with ludicrous amonts of money and set us loose in shops to buy up armor, weapons, rings, ioun stones, boots, whatever. In theory this is good for us, but when a level 10 character is wielding a +5 merciful defending blurstrike shortsword and most of her other gear is +3ish, the game's balance is off no matter how you spin it. He compensates for this artificial power by beefing up the enemies as well, and this doesn't QUITE equate.

Help me?:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

Tormsskull
2008-08-18, 12:30 AM
He finally relented after a long series of arguments and counters, but we have another problem.


Sounds to me like that issue isn't really settled.



and illegal numbers of ranks in skills, etc) and I never have any idea of how to approach any given situation because one of these surprise rules might come up and bite my ass when I really need a lucky break.


Out of curiosity, how do you know that an NPC has an illegal (I'm assuming when you say illegal you mean too many for their level?) amount of skill ranks.

Sounds to me like you want a by-the-book tactical game. Where, knowing the rules, you formulate and make plans to win encounters, and it sounds like the DM isn't catering to that.



Shouldn't we be able to protest what we all deem as ridiculous and have some say in the inclusion or exclusion of certain details? No player group wants to be railroaded constantly.


You definitely should be able to say what you want, but it is ultimately up to the DM as to what actually happens. If you are going to confront him about specific issues, use common sense (i.e. be polite, discuss it with him away from the group so he doesn't feel like you're ganging up on him, etc.).



Last issue, I swear. The way he handles roleplaying with NPCs can be downright frustrating.


I'm not sure if this can really be helped, but when you are RPing with these NPCs, perhaps ask the DM if they have any unusual characteristics or mannerisms? Maybe if you help to make each one different from the next, he will be more encouraged to develop unique personalities for each.



What Do I Do?:smalleek:

Honestly, it you are very dissatisfied, I'd suggest finding another group (I know you said that would be difficult) or taking up a different hobby. Its not worth playing in a game that you aren't having fun in.

TaintedLight
2008-08-18, 12:44 AM
This DM consults me sometimes when generating new ideas, characters, etc and he shows me what he is working on because 1) he knows that I can roleplay it right even with some knowledge I shouldn't have and 2) because he values my sense of judgement on these things because we are best friends. Their personalities are more-than-just-occasionally direct rips of characters from video games and animes, and I have said many times, to no avail, "You should try making a character with inspirations from other sources instead of importing X from franchise Y as-is." As for the houseruling/planning/encounter part of the campaign, I like to make my character react to things. When scary things appear, I don't just laugh in the face of death. Knowing full well that it might hinder my performance, I might spend a round cringing or something to increase tension. What gets me is that there are rules for a reason and they are being broken without method to the madness. The rules exist to give everyone a solid, objective framework in which to act and roleplay as well as make combat decisions. Everyone should know these rules so that I dont end up tripping on my fat metal ass when my warforged juggernaut makes a charging bullrush and the DM rules that the feats I picked to optimize his fighting style have not helped me because of Suprise Rule 14A, Section 5 Paragraph 1. (This document is, of course, totally fictional and revealed as we go.) As for when I confront him, he is my oldest friend. Of COURSE I don't embarass him about this stuff, and I try to be reasonable. When his campaigns come together, they do so beautifully and that is when I have a great time playing D&D. If I don't absolutely have to quit, I absolutely dont want to.

FMArthur
2008-08-18, 12:50 AM
Honestly, I'd just come up with stupidly powerful item combinations to solve that problem. I don't mean ruin the campaign with it, but make a few seemingly-important encounters into trivial nuisances will encourage him not to overdo the wealth in future games, even if it's unfixable in the current game without a very upsetting disjunction. He'll find a counter or loophole or DM-fiat around the item stuff in the current game, so it wouldn't be a lasting problem, hopefully.

Behold_the_Void
2008-08-18, 01:24 AM
Honestly, it seems like this playstyle isn't going to work out for you. I mean, he's a friend and all but if the game sucks it sucks, and I don't think there's much room for improvement here from what you've said.

busterswd
2008-08-18, 01:34 AM
Honestly, I'd just come up with stupidly powerful item combinations to solve that problem. I don't mean ruin the campaign with it, but make a few seemingly-important encounters into trivial nuisances will encourage him not to overdo the wealth in future games, even if it's unfixable in the current game without a very upsetting disjunction. He'll find a counter or loophole or DM-fiat around the item stuff in the current game, so it wouldn't be a lasting problem, hopefully.

^

This. If you think he's giving you too much power, break his game. Any DM with a small sense of pride will do one of two things:

Scale up the encounters to match your power.
Scale down the "benefits" you are receiving.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-18, 01:46 AM
I, for one, would vehemently refuse to fit into his female stereotyping.

I'd also, if I decided to stay at all, gleefully break the game! That sounds like a lot of fun. Browse the CharOp boards, chat with Tippy, etc. ... learn stupidly overpowered things you can do, and run the campaign Off the Rails. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OffTheRails)

That's what I'd do. Then I'd kill his stupid GMPCs with my stupid overpowered magical items. :smalltongue:

Behold_the_Void
2008-08-18, 02:18 AM
I, for one, would vehemently refuse to fit into his female stereotyping.

I'd also, if I decided to stay at all, gleefully break the game! That sounds like a lot of fun. Browse the CharOp boards, chat with Tippy, etc. ... learn stupidly overpowered things you can do, and run the campaign Off the Rails. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OffTheRails)

That's what I'd do. Then I'd kill his stupid GMPCs with my stupid overpowered magical items. :smalltongue:

Aren't GMPCs by definition unkillable?

Dr Bwaa
2008-08-18, 02:38 AM
I will suggest a different strategy, though in practice it may be difficult--but it's already difficult, so hey!

grab a DMG, read some of it, and start a campaign with the same group of people. I don't care if you think you can DM or not; it doesn't really matter because you'll learn as you go: and from here, do a couple things. One, make sure you do all the things you want him to do but he doesn't. Two (technically included in #1), after every session ask everyone what they thought, either all together or one-on-one, and honestly invite criticism and suggestions. I still do this second one after DMing for two years with a bunch of my closest friends, and definitely recommend it. Both of these may help to give your other DM a feel for what he's lacking, and they will certainly help you to be a good DM.

Talic
2008-08-18, 02:41 AM
It seems like he has set up surprise house rules of which many of us are unaware before (changing the operations of bull rushes slightly, Basic game mechanics should be discussed with players before altering.

magic poisons that can affect warforged,Reasonable. Various fiend/undead related books reference poisons specifically designed to harm undead and demons, as well as the possibility for creation. However, such things, when used well, would be rare, and should likely be foreshadowed, or introduced in a less than lethal fashon.

NPCs with ridiculous land speeds, stats, and illegal numbers of ranks in skills,I'm not a big fan of breaking character creation rules when introducing NPC's, unless they're under the temporary effect of something (read: MacGuffin)
etc) and I never have any idea of how to approach any given situation because one of these surprise rules might come up and bite my ass when I really need a lucky break.I advise going over any rules integral to your character with your DM prior to it being a clutch situation.

Third issue; with the exception of the warforged bit, he is almost always unmovable in his decisions. Now, I understand that the DM has executive decision making power, but D&D is a game with PLAYERS, too. Shouldn't we be able to protest what we all deem as ridiculous and have some say in the inclusion or exclusion of certain details? No player group wants to be railroaded constantly.Agreed. If players put up a unified front, they can often influence some things with the Player power to Vote with your Feet. Just pick your battles carefully.

Last issue, I swear. The way he handles roleplaying with NPCs can be downright frustrating. One, his villains (and most plot-relevant NPCs) always have the same personality: infuriatingly vague, smug, and condescending to the PCs. All of them have that "I-know-something-you-really-should-know-but-don't-and-can't-possibly-at-this-point" kind of omniscience, where they are all abnormally perceptive. The second issue with NPCs also extends to PCs, and that would be the blatant feminism. All female NPCs are at least ECL 4+ above our level, female party members are favored with gear, roleplaying, etc, and female PCs are expected to have one of two archetypes: fiercely, militantly independent, or demure and man-dependent with no room for any other kind.Likely bringing personal influences, biases, into the game. If DM is male, then possibly trying to gain favor with the ladies. Like anything else, better brought up with him than us.

Talic
2008-08-18, 02:43 AM
I will suggest a different strategy, though in practice it may be difficult--but it's already difficult, so hey!

grab a DMG, read some of it, and start a campaign with the same group of people. I don't care if you think you can DM or not; it doesn't really matter because you'll learn as you go: and from here, do a couple things. One, make sure you do all the things you want him to do but he doesn't. Two (technically included in #1), after every session ask everyone what they thought, either all together or one-on-one, and honestly invite criticism and suggestions. I still do this second one after DMing for two years with a bunch of my closest friends, and definitely recommend it. Both of these may help to give your other DM a feel for what he's lacking, and they will certainly help you to be a good DM.

Quoted for truth. I've got 15 years of DMing experience. After every session, I invite players to share the best parts of the game, and the areas that could be improved on. I ask they comment on every player, and myself, and then award bonus xp to whichever player gets the most votes for "best roleplaying this session". Only catch is that players can't vote for themselves.

Frownbear
2008-08-18, 02:52 AM
The second issue with NPCs also extends to PCs, and that would be the blatant feminism. All female NPCs are at least ECL 4+ above our level, female party members are favored with gear, roleplaying, etc, and female PCs are expected to have one of two archetypes: fiercely, militantly independent, or demure and man-dependent with no room for any other kind.

That's... that's not actually feminism.

Dhavaer
2008-08-18, 04:07 AM
That's... that's not actually feminism.

Aye. What, out of curiosity, does he do when a character doesn't fit either of the stereotypes?

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-18, 04:29 AM
That's... that's not actually feminism.

It sounds, in fact, like the exact opposite.

Same advice as always: change DMs, either within the group or by finding a new one.

Secret houserules are, in fact, against the rules; if the game doesn't work as presented in the rulebooks (the ones meant for players, anyhow), the houserules need to be listed and presented to the players so that they know how things work.

Burley
2008-08-18, 08:05 AM
Looks to me like your DM is trying very hard to be interesting, but doesn't know how. I assume that he finds anime/video game characters interesting, and puts them in his campaigns, regardless of whether or not you find them interesting.
I believe, because I'm guilty of this myself, that he's giving too much equipment/cash because he's afraid of 1) killing you all by accident when one of his crazy anime characters goes Byakugan on you buts, and 2) he just wants you to like him. What player doesn't love having shiny stuff to pimp out their character? He just needs to understand that most players like to work for their shinies.
As for "feminism": Most men will throw preference to one of the two sexes. It's our nature to make women either better or worse than men. Be glad that your friend leans towards the lesser of the two evils. If the women at your table feel that it isn't fair to them, let them talk about it. If you feel that you're not getting enough +3 armors...well...I guess you just have your complaints a little mixed up. :smalltongue:

I would like to add this: I once made up a hombrewed world/campaign for my group. It would have been really great, but there was a single hitch. My campaign had Druids and Barbarians as a barbaric society, and their native language for anything with those classes was Druidic/barbaric (one tongue), instead of Common. I informed my players of this well before CharGen and asked that nobody play a Druid or Barbarian because of the culture difference and because of my plot, but one of my players (and also my very best friend ever) came to the table with a Druid. I told him he couldn't play it, and he argued and threatened to walk from the table if he couldn't play a druid. I said Fine, but I forced him to erase one of his bonus languages if he wanted to speak Common. Him being a Druid completely threw off my plans, and the entire campaign ended up dissolving after only a few sessions because there was no plot.
I add this because you're complaining about your DM not stating house rules, but when he stated one (which was very simple to comply to) you argued until he gave way. Even though D&D has players, it also has a DM. (My group tends to forget that, and get angry when I throw up my hands and go "Wooo" when I roll a natural 20...another story...) Point is: If you want houserules displayed, then don't start off a campaign arguing about things. You can ask for his reasoning, but you shouldn't just whine until you get your way. Playing a Warforged probably wasn't a life-and-death thing for you, but it very well could have been a plot-or-random encounter thing for him. He's probably hiding his some of his houserules because he's afraid his campaign will be ruined if his players refuse them. (I some, not all, because some of them are probably just to give him a leg up when he feels like you're blowing through his encounters too easily.)

The New Bruceski
2008-08-18, 08:52 AM
(My group tends to forget that, and get angry when I throw up my hands and go "Wooo" when I roll a natural 20...another story...)

I got a good zing on one of my DMs the other day. When we were caught too close together and he hit us all with an AoE, 5 rolls 18 or higher, a photo showed up on our web page quite quickly. When his orchestrated plan of attack fell victim to 1s and 2s against all of us, I noticed that the camera never even budged.

Then again we're an informal bunch who cheer the dice often. I actually whoop whenever an enemy rolls a crit against me, because it means I get use out of my Razor Scale.:smalltongue:

valadil
2008-08-18, 09:22 AM
He really needs to discuss rules changes ahead of time. If you think you're playing one game and the GM is playing a different game, you'll be disappointed when your rules don't work in his world. That will always lead to players being frustrated. If he wants a game where players have to discover the rules as they go, start a game that nobody else is familiar with instead of altering D&D.

1of3
2008-08-18, 09:38 AM
Shouldn't we be able to protest what we all deem as ridiculous and have some say in the inclusion or exclusion of certain details? No player group wants to be railroaded constantly.

It's not a matter of should. You have tremendous power just by sitting at that table. You see, as soon as you say no the game stops and it will not continue before you say yes again.

Jayabalard
2008-08-18, 09:52 AM
Secret houserules are, in fact, against the rules; if the game doesn't work as presented in the rulebooks (the ones meant for players, anyhow), the houserules need to be listed and presented to the players so that they know how things work.That sounds like a house rule to me.


magic poisons that can affect warforged, NPCs with ridiculous land speeds, stats, and illegal numbers of ranks in skills, etcI don't see any problem with any of these, even if he doesn't discuss it with you.

TaintedLight
2008-08-18, 09:54 AM
Thanks for all the advice guys. Some of this has put my own opinions into better perspective, but allow me to retract what I siad earlier. "Feminism" probably wasn't the right word, but maybe "heavily favoring women" is. I can say pretty soundly that warforged were not a plot device for him, and that he was just being difficult for some other reason (like not wanting to insert warforged into a preexisting society that could have easily supported them out of sheer laziness). Also, this DM loves to set up very difficult encounters. This is fine with me, because I like to struggle sometimes, but getting critted 4 rounds in a row by a Karrnathi skeleton and having to be carried back to town in saddlebags, facing off against monster(s) that are probably 5 CRs ahead of us on a regular basis, or fighting NPCs with abilities that are direct rips from animes (yes, Byakugan AND Sharingan AND Rinnegan in one character) that have not been even slightly toned down from their setting-specific levels of power gets really old when you just can't win. For ****'s sake, the NPC was ECL 35 and a half-daelkyr. As for derailing and breaking the campaign, I don't want to do that because nobody wants other people to make their fun crash and burn out of spite. He's my good buddy, and I'd like to stay friends.:smallsmile:

Shazzbaa
2008-08-18, 10:09 AM
Well, the truth of the matter is that no matter whether you LIKE or AGREE WITH what he's doing or not, you have a limited number of options if you want to solve this peacefully and you're not willing to leave the game for a new one. "Just break his game!" seems to be a popular solution, but turning things into a power struggle may not turn out the way you'd like.

Problem 1: The warforged issue
Burley Warlock has already said what I was thinking here, so... yeah, I second that. No matter how reasonable you were, you were pushing the DM to change something about the world he created, without knowing all the details... so what looks perfectly reasonable to you may be throwing something off kilter. I've been in a game where one player whined about not being able to play a class that the DM just told him "No, you can't play that" without a reason. It turns out that particular class was too close to a plot-important class he'd created that we knew nothing about until we'd gotten a ways into the plot. DMs are allowed to be unreasonable about stuff like that because they're the people who have to work the story and mechanics around it -- if a DM says "nothing but human PCs in this campaign" and you join, it's just kind of... rude to try to squeeze in as a drow, y'know?
(EDIT: in response to Tainted Light, who ninja'd me -- I still stand by the "it's rude to be a drow if he said only humans" statement. Even if a DM's ruling is arbitrary, why fight against his one specifically stated rule? But if it's all worked out now with no hard feelings, don't worry about it -- though you probably shouldn't complain when he invents poisons to affect you, if he's already letting you get away with something he didn't want to begin with :smalltongue: )

Problem 2: Surprise rules.
Well, naturally I assume that since you're best friends and seem to have a decent relationship, that you're pointing out places where the surprise rules are coming across as frustrating and unfair. Eventually it may get through to him. But, until then, I suggest...act like a new player.
When I first started D&D, I didn't know what bullrush did. So I would ask "Okay, if I bullrush this guy, what happens?" and they would explain that he got an AoO and then we made strength checks and then I might be able to move him, so that I could decide if I wanted to do it. So, if surprise rules have been jumping out a lot, why not just make sure: "Okay, now, I can bullrush this guy, and it's just AoO and then STR checks, right? I don't need any special prereqs?"
Frankly, I've played in homebrewed systems where NOBODY knew how the rules worked and EVERYTHING was adhoc-ed by the GM, and posing each action as a "how would I go about doing this" question works out fine when you're expecting things to work that way.

Problem 3: Unmovable DM
Well, if he wants your advice, you can offer it. If he doesn't listen to advice, all you can really do is decide if you want to deal with it or not. I have one DM at home that is all "Rule 0, I'm the DM, my word is law!" who doesn't really care even when we tell him one of his decisions wasn't fun (which SHOULD be the worst possible criticism against a game session). Then, I have a GM at college who, as previous posters have suggested, takes advice and criticism after every session. Compared to the college GM, my home DM seems like a tyrant... but I recognise that he's not a bad DM, and playing with him is better than not playing, and I'm able to get fun out of the game even when he frustrates me, so... what can I do, but sit back and enjoy the game as best I can?
The other players have tried a "player's revolt" once, but I really don't even know if he listened. Sometimes you have a DM who just wants to run his game and doesn't care how the players feel... which is unfortunate, and not how DMing should be, but it happens. If you can have fun anyway, and it's worth it to sit back and deal, then deal. If not, find a new DM.

Yes, what you say is true -- the players should have some input. But if he won't listen to you, there's nothing you can do to make him listen.

Problem 4: Annoying NPCs

Oh, man, I hear you on the same-y NPCs front. Unfortunately, this is another one of those things that you can't fix unless he takes advice. You can mention that everyone in the game acts exactly the same way, but if he doesn't care, what can you do?
But if he's lifting people straight from games and movies... heck, what's wrong with that? That could be a great opportunity to break him of the "everyone acts exactly the same" problem! I'm in a game right now where our favourite high-priest ever was lifted -- looks, name, and personality -- straight from a video game, but the DM plays that personality so perfectly that we love him. I was in another game that lasted 2 or 3 years where every single NPC was unashamedly based on the persona of a Japanese Rock Star, and all the in-game allegiances shifted as bands broke up or got back together. Both of those games had varied NPCs that were all different and memorable, the most memorable characters I've ever experienced; by contrast, one game I played in where the DM laboriously invented every character and every character's backstory ended up with each NPC just being another version of the DM's personality. I say, don't discourage his blatant plagiarism; encourage it! Encourage him to look at the personalities of his favourite outside characters, and figure out how to affect these different personalities in his NPCs. Depending on his source material, it might not help much, but if he has trouble creating different personality types it might be a step he can take.

After all, gaming is not writing. What's really inadvisable when writing your own story might help tremendously when writing a fun campaign.

A lot of this stuff, though, is stuff you're going to have to live with. It's not optimal DMing, but then, it's easy to forget on these boards full of creative, talented tabletop gamers that many DMs aren't going to be optimal, and until he decides to take critique, you just take the fun that you can out of the game.

PnP Fan
2008-08-18, 12:16 PM
I second everything that Shazzbaa said. Some of these things you're just going to have to live with. I agree that they are not all wonderful qualities in a GM, but they aren't the worst things in the world.
You might drop a few hints during the game. Don't be mean, but asking questions about rules as you're going through the game is an excellent way to 1) know what you're getting into, and 2) if you wind up asking questions every time you do something you're going to bring attention to the number of unwritten house rules there are. I've been in a series of campaigns with a group that has a huge number of unwritten house rules, and the players are largely powergamers based around these houserules. Very frustrating if you don't know the houserules (and half the time the players don't know the RAW in order to differentiate for newcomers). So I did exactly that, asked lots of questions, poured out a small dose of incredulity when I felt necessary, and things worked out much better in the follow on campaign. If I didn't like the people, I probably would have walked at some point.

Kuma Da
2008-08-18, 12:30 PM
Okay. This goes against the grain of the string of "your DM is probably at least a little bit right" posts. All the games I've been in have been as a player, so that's the angle I work from when I'm trying to help along a game that could use some work. The way I see it, there are three very different approaches you could take to fixing things.

Rules/mechanical approach: The main goal here is cluing your DM in to the fact that the campaign could be fantastic and that he has the ability to make it that way. If you can demonstrate to him that his game balance is off without outright telling him that, maybe he'll be more willing to fix it.

So, with that in mind, Kiara LeSabre had a good idea. Trying to run the campaign off the rails (in an in character way. if it comes off as goofing around, that's more stress on him,) could force him to adapt to a changing situation and to compromise with the players who are driving it. If you're lucky, your DM'll have a moment of epiphany and loosen up his style a little bit.

Roleplay/organic characters approach: Fixing DMPCs is hard. Especially if the DM treats them as moving bits of plot and not as characters for the PCs to interact with. If DMPC1's goal is to push the characters in X direction or add X tension to the story, that's bad. DMPC1's goal should be to be DMPC1. One way you can push them in that direction is by going out of your way to build a relationship with that character. Even a cardboard cut-out Kurosaki Ichigo will become more three dimensional after staying up all night listening to the war stories of your party's paladin or cooking and gossiping over the campfire your party's druid.

If you put enough time and effort into this approach, not only will you flesh out the DMPCs a little bit, but you'll also make the DM a better roleplayer. Which is really, really nice for everyone involved in the game.

Out of character/step into another room and have a serious discussion approach: This is by far the most direct strategy, but it could work really well since your DM asks for your advice to help with his world-building. Let him broach the subject first (i.e. "what do you think of making a PC like Vash the Stampede, but a ranger?") Then, when he's open to your ideas, try to brainstorm ideas together to fix the game balance. I mean, you're already helping with characters and he does value your judgment. If you work together to come up with a solution, he'll think of it as partly his idea and you won't have to push anything on him.

If you're going with this approach, though, I'd wait a bit on confronting him about the gender unbalance thing. Like, a week or so. He's doing a totally typical guy thing and, in trying to make his female characters have some depth to them, he's polarized them instead. So now, instead of being plot points or living scenery (damsel in distress,) they're either extremely physically capable but emotionally weak (i.e. the 'emotionless warrior' cliche, or the 'over the top humor/aggression but a simple personality and/or hidden angst that she's trying to cover up' cliche,) or extremely emotionally capable but physically weak/clingy ('empathetic healer' or 'magical schoolgirl who always fixes her friends' problems'.) Your DM is still finding the middle ground between the two. Give him some time and maybe a few subtle pointers. He'll eventually figure out that girls can't be simplified.

...anyways, I hope that all helps somehow. Feel free to PM me if I muddled up my explanation of anything.

Good luck with your game.

DeathQuaker
2008-08-18, 12:41 PM
It seems like he has set up surprise house rules of which many of us are unaware before (changing the operations of bull rushes slightly, magic poisons that can affect warforged, NPCs with ridiculous land speeds, stats, and illegal numbers of ranks in skills, etc) and I never have any idea of how to approach any given situation because one of these surprise rules might come up and bite my ass when I really need a lucky break.

Ask him to type up his houserules and give them to the players. This is the kind of thing that should be a matter of course. It'll help him maintain consistency, help the players keep track of things, and make gameplay go faster.

It is a majorly important part of the player-GM contract that the GM makes players aware of any of his rules and is consistent in his rulings. If the GM isn't telling the players how to play, he can't complain when they're "doing it wrong."



Third issue; with the exception of the warforged bit, he is almost always unmovable in his decisions. Now, I understand that the DM has executive decision making power, but D&D is a game with PLAYERS, too. Shouldn't we be able to protest what we all deem as ridiculous and have some say in the inclusion or exclusion of certain details? No player group wants to be railroaded constantly.

This is a hard situation to judge. Ideally, yes, the GM is in charge but he should also be open to player feedback.

But on one hand... as a player, I certainly know how annoying it is to have the GM say "No" to you on absolutely everything. Especially if there is not a clear rationale for it.

On the other hand, as GM, I can quickly get sick of players who are constantly trying to push the envelope, asking for rules exceptions in thinly veiled attempts to make their characters more powerful for no reason.

I don't know what your GM is disregarding, and I don't know what you players are asking for. But if all the players are multiply frustrated, then it's obvious the players and GM need to sit down and have a talk out of session and review what's going on in the campaign.

The players should be able to ask for the freedom to provide feedback--and if there is consensus amongst players about the GM's ruling, then the GM should be obligated to consider the request seriously.

However, if he doesn't grant the request, he should be able to provide a reasonable rationale as to why. And at that point, it's the players' obligation to accept the GM's judgement. If he fails to provide a reasonable rationale, then he's not holding up his end of the bargain, and you need to remind him of that.

If he's a more structured fellow, maybe setting up a "GM-player check-in" every couple months will be helpful.



Last issue, I swear. The way he handles roleplaying with NPCs can be downright frustrating. One, his villains (and most plot-relevant NPCs) always have the same personality: infuriatingly vague, smug, and condescending to the PCs. All of them have that "I-know-something-you-really-should-know-but-don't-and-can't-possibly-at-this-point" kind of omniscience, where they are all abnormally perceptive. The second issue with NPCs also extends to PCs, and that would be the blatant feminism. All female NPCs are at least ECL 4+ above our level, female party members are favored with gear, roleplaying, etc, and female PCs are expected to have one of two archetypes: fiercely, militantly independent, or demure and man-dependent with no room for any other kind.

This is a less solvable issue, as if he's a poor roleplayer, he's a poor roleplayer. But...


I dont know anyone else who can really be a DM, and this guy is my best friend.

If he is truly your best friend, he should be willing to receive some frank feedback from you with an open mind.

Open up with what you do like about the campaign--by starting positive, it helps keep him from feeling defensive when he gets to the negative bits. A suggestion for "starting positive" could include, "By the way, thanks for letting me play my Warforged character. I'm happy I could try that concept out, and it's working out really well."

The main conversation points you need to bring up are
1. "We're having a lot of trouble remembering your house rules. Can you please write them down for us?"

Emphasize the need for improving efficiency of gameplay, etc.

2. "I know you've put a lot into this, but we're feeling really tied down by some of your rulings, and we're not having any fun."

This is important. You might find a more tactful way to say it, but if the players aren't having fun, the DM isn't doing his job and he needs to know that. Suggest ways of finding compromise, as discussed above. And again--what you should be looking for (tell him this) is a willingness to listen, respect the majority, and provide rationales for when he says, "No." If he agrees to do these things, the players MUST also agree to abide by his rulings after the issues are discussed.

3. "Um, I'm really sorry, but your NPCs seem all alike. Especially the girls. I know it's really hard to play the personalities of multiple people, but... it's getting a little old."

Again, probably more tact is required on this. You're his best friend, so you know how to communicate with him best. Also, again with the not having fun thing. Depending on the setting, maybe suggest he make a few major NPCs and stick to fleshing them out. Maybe even suggest using some of the random NPC tables to give each one unique traits. If he ends up rolling a female who's "matronly and talks with a stutter" it'll be at least slightly different than some of the others (as long as he sticks by it).

If he doesn't listen and your fellow players are still getting frustrated, then it's time to bring all the players in to talk to him. Maybe if he realizes EVERYONE not just you is feeling this way, and you're not just saying "Everyone's gonna walk" if he doesn't change, he will be more willing to listen to reason.

And you may have to stick to your guns and say you're gonna walk if he doesn't change. The point of gaming to have fun, otherwise you're wasting four-six valuable hours a session at least. Y'all could be spending that time going to the movies together or something, where you're not finding yourself constantly aggravated with your best friend.

Burley
2008-08-18, 03:05 PM
Something else that I just thought of:
If your group can afford the loss of one player, maybe suggest to your friend that the two of you Co-DM a campaign, from the beginning at level 1. This gives you the opportunity to have a DMPC that can help drive the plot without being lame (since you already said that you can seperate character and player knowledge) and you'll be able to keep his NPCs and ridiculous plots in check. You'll both have a say in the wealth by level, and you can help him to not just focus on the women at the table.

Would this be something that your friend would go for? I've often considered having my friend Co-DM with me, but our group seems to fluxuate in size from week to week and I can't afford the loss of a full playa.

Frosty
2008-08-18, 03:37 PM
I, for one, would vehemently refuse to fit into his female stereotyping

But how would he do that? He can't change the way the female NPCs are played by the DM.

The Glyphstone
2008-08-18, 04:03 PM
But how would he do that? He can't change the way the female NPCs are played by the DM.
I think Kiara meant that they'd play a female breaking said stereotypes.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-18, 04:03 PM
But how would he do that? He can't change the way the female NPCs are played by the DM.

Huh? I'm not sure what you're asking?

I'd refuse to play to the stereotype myself as a PC. And yes, GMPCs are generally unkillable, but that doesn't mean I can't try, right? It's good to have a goal, especially when the campaign itself is utterly silly to the point of extreme annoyance.

Shazzbaa
2008-08-18, 07:13 PM
Wow, Kuma Da, all I gotta say is -- I'll be keeping that advice in mind myself. ^^; Really good thinking.

Kuma Da
2008-08-19, 01:18 AM
Thank you, Shazzbaa. :smallredface:

Everyone else has been giving really good advice, too.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-19, 01:26 AM
Thank you, Shazzbaa. :smallredface:

Everyone else has been giving really good advice, too.

Except me. I basically suggested that he try to maliciously sabotage the game. That's not really good advice at all. :smalltongue:

Treguard
2008-08-19, 03:32 AM
Playing the devil's advocate here, but warforged really shouldn't fit in IK. Y'see, it's a world heavily steeped in its own flavour, which sets it apart from more generic games of typical dnd (I mean, you wouldn't play in IK for it's great game mechanics now :smallwink:). Whilst there is plenty of charm and character for players to enjoy in the world it also means there is a degree of inflexibility when it comes to player options. As opposed to sheer laziness, perhaps he was trying to preserve the flavour of the world set before you?

It'd be pretty jarring for me to work with were I DMing, simply because warforged in the Iron Kingdoms, where the most sophisticated technology is the steam powered warjack, is akin to driving KITT from Knight Rider in a world where people are still toying with the idea of steam propulsion. Heck, you wouldn't be able to travel anywhere without arcane mechaniks and steamos wanting to strip you down to study your inner gubbins! :smalltongue:

Kuma Da
2008-08-19, 03:59 AM
"Except me. I basically suggested that he try to maliciously sabotage the game. That's not really good advice at all."

Well, sabotage is a viable strategy. The malicious part, not so much, but riding a campaign off the rails can really liven up a story. At the very least, it makes sure that the characters are having a part in the plot.

If you hadn't guessed, I have a bad habit of trying to keep my DMs on their toes. One of them once claimed that the only proper way to do a campaign was to make a flow chart showing all possible directions that they players could take the plot. I spent the next session after that with my musclebound, full plate-encased, clerical tank playing mommy to a velociraptor egg that he had abducted. Said egg had been intended as scenery.

DM: "You do know that the raptors will scent your egg and come after you, right?"

Me: "Shhh. Don't listen to him, egg. He is full of lies."

DM: "If you put the egg back, though, they won't bother tracking you down."

Me: "But it's such a cuddly-wuddly baby-waby raptor-chan. My character has never had to look after young life before, and he thinks that it will be very spiritually fulfilling."

...I like to think that I was responsible for the inclusion of Recurring Villain: Velociraptors in that campaign.

Akisa
2008-08-19, 07:15 AM
DM: "You do know that the raptors will scent your egg and come after you, right?"

Me: "Shhh. Don't listen to him, egg. He is full of lies."

DM: "If you put the egg back, though, they won't bother tracking you down."

Me: "But it's such a cuddly-wuddly baby-waby raptor-chan. My character has never had to look after young life before, and he thinks that it will be very spiritually fulfilling."

...I like to think that I was responsible for the inclusion of Recurring Villain: Velociraptors in that campaign.

Nah except that's where you give the egg to the druid :P

Knaight
2008-08-19, 08:11 AM
...I like to think that I was responsible for the inclusion of Recurring Villain: Velociraptors in that campaign.

That is so awesome. And this is from a GMs standpoint.

Kuma Da
2008-08-19, 10:34 AM
I'm glad to hear you say that, Knaight. I think I actually might've gone off the rails a little too often in that campaign, and that stresses some DMs out. But if you could work with a plot prompt like the raptor egg thing, more power to you.

Demonix
2008-08-19, 12:20 PM
"Except me. I basically suggested that he try to maliciously sabotage the game. That's not really good advice at all."

Well, sabotage is a viable strategy. The malicious part, not so much, but riding a campaign off the rails can really liven up a story. At the very least, it makes sure that the characters are having a part in the plot.

If you hadn't guessed, I have a bad habit of trying to keep my DMs on their toes. One of them once claimed that the only proper way to do a campaign was to make a flow chart showing all possible directions that they players could take the plot. I spent the next session after that with my musclebound, full plate-encased, clerical tank playing mommy to a velociraptor egg that he had abducted. Said egg had been intended as scenery.

DM: "You do know that the raptors will scent your egg and come after you, right?"

Me: "Shhh. Don't listen to him, egg. He is full of lies."

DM: "If you put the egg back, though, they won't bother tracking you down."

Me: "But it's such a cuddly-wuddly baby-waby raptor-chan. My character has never had to look after young life before, and he thinks that it will be very spiritually fulfilling."

...I like to think that I was responsible for the inclusion of Recurring Villain: Velociraptors in that campaign.

You would fit right into one of my gaming sessions. Well done! -Applause-

Kuma Da
2008-08-19, 01:03 PM
Thank you, Demonix. That's high praise.

Unfortunately, right now I seem to be running this thread off the rails. Which I ought not to do.

So: ways to work around a difficult DM. Discuss.

Knaight
2008-08-19, 05:05 PM
Give your GM some literature that is more like how you want the game. Then strike up a conversation about it, and slip in little mentions of D&D every so often. Or personally GM as a positive example.

LordMalrog
2008-08-20, 01:00 AM
Ok, DM breaker coming through (that would be me). See i have a lovely invention that i made for occasions such as these. Its called a
-=SCREW THIS CARD=-
This is a magical thing you can just say when you are seriously fed up with a dm being absoluetly ridiculous. It means if he does not avert his ways you will eventually stop playing the campaign. You should make sure he sets up all his house rules ahead of time, and doesn't spring anything on you. Oh and a "House rule" generally means everyone in the group agreed on it.
Oh and his classic "Sophistacate villain" is an old favorite of mine. This is a character who should be used sparingly however. An easy way to mess with this guy is to make an idiot. yes an idiot. someone who doesn't understand his insutls and just allows acts like hes come out on top no matter how socially destroyed he was by the villain.
"Ha, you petty fools you can't-"
"I SLEPT WITH YOU MOM!"
"what?!"
"You heard me! where'd you get that dress? Was it on sale?"
"ITS A TRENCH COA-
"*sounding victorious* ya whatever...
it defuses the DM thinking that the villain is getting to you. Instead you are getting to the villain.
The sexism thing is simply him not thinking outside the box. He really needs to stop thinking of women as stock characters. you should address him on lacking creativity in this district. maybe give him a few ideas. best of luck!

mangosta71
2008-08-20, 01:38 AM
Except me. I basically suggested that he try to maliciously sabotage the game. That's not really good advice at all. :smalltongue:

It would make the game more enjoyable. Therefore, it is excellent advice. And don't listen to all those people who try to discourage malice. They don't know the fun they're missing out on.

DeathQuaker
2008-08-20, 08:16 AM
I know a lot of what's being said here is said in humor, but I think it's worth mentioning/repeating since the OP's request was a serious one:

The number one priority in gaming is EVERYONE should be having fun, roughly equally. Players and GM alike.

Elaboration: Players and GM should not be enemies of each other. Everyone should be getting together to play a game TOGETHER.

This should not prevent creative and even sometimes mischievous gameplay, but the GM should be enjoying the zanyness along with everyone else. Likewise if the GM's making the call on the insanity, the players should be able to see the joke of it, not feeling like they're being screwed over.

(Like the time we decided the best way to sneak into the gnome's merchant caravan was to set their caged bulette into the crowds was not what the GM was looking for, but he was as amused as we were. :smallsmile: And yes, I realize that's what a lot of people are talking about here. :smallsmile:)

GMs making players miserable makes for a lonely GM with no one to run games for. Players making GMs miserable makes them lose their GM. A situation where everyone is just competing to make each other miserable and one-up each other isn't gaming, it's a dysfunctional polygamous marriage :smallwink:.

Kuma Da
2008-08-20, 08:10 PM
"A situation where everyone is just competing to make each other miserable and one-up each other isn't gaming, it's a dysfunctional polygamous marriage"

That has a ring of being very quotable to it.

Also, I totally agree with what you're saying, and I think it was part of Tainted Light's original intent with this thread. It's important not to alienate/offend the GM, just to get him thinking.