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Tempest Fennac
2008-08-18, 01:36 AM
I was just thinking that it would be interresting to create a 3.5 chartacter who's an Adept with full casting, but I'm not sure how to balance them with PC classes without going overboard. So far, I've extended their spell list* while givin gthem the same number of spells as a Generalist Wizard, but I can't think of any class features which would fit with them. If you guys have any ideas, please could you tell me while letting me know if the spells I added to the class are balanced while fitting with their other spells?

0
Prestigitation added.

2
Rope Trick added.

3
Slow added.

4
Rainbow Pattern and Shout added.

5
Heal replaced by Cure Light Wounds Mass, add Spell Resistance.

6
Heal, Blade Barrier, Greater Dispell, Banishment, Undeath to Death, Chain Lightning, Perminant Image, Cure Moderate Wounds Mass, create Undead.

7

Mass Cure Serious Wounds, Spell Turning, Prismatic Spray, Repulsion, Control Weather, Resurrection, Regenerate, Greater Restoration.

8

Cure Crtical Wounds Mass, Firestorm, Greater Spell Immunity, Prismatic Wall, Sunburst, Greater Shout, Create Greater Undead, Polymorph Any Object.

9
Mass Heal, True Ressurrection, Gate, Meteor Swarm, Prismatic Sphere, Miracle.

mabriss lethe
2008-08-18, 01:52 AM
....wellllll.....

It's a neat idea, but I really can't think of anything off the top of my head.

-you might incorporate some bit of binder or invoker for some added fun. y'know, to take into account the supernatural back alley deals that swamp witches and hedge wizards are supposed to make. maybe access to one least, lesser, and greater invocation on top of spells (except that would start to work a bit too much like 4E for some people.)

-You could, instead, focus on their familiars. Since in a lot of the legends surrounding the sort of folks Adepts represent, the familiar as often as not plays as big a role in the magic as the mortal does. have their class features dedicated to improving the familiar's abilities and adding a few buff spells for them as well. Not sure exactly what they'd be, maybe free access to a list of bonus feats that improve familiars, maybe improve the bonuses that familiars grant, access to a list of templates that the adept could add to the familiar. Maybe the familiar gets limited access to its own spellcasting? potentially abusable, but I'm just sort of venting ideas.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-18, 01:56 AM
That could be interresting thanks. Invocations would probably be a bit too powerful, but I'll check out Binder's abilities (I know that class is quite weak, but some of its abilities could act as a good suppliment). Would allowing a familiar to grant Enshew Materials work? (It's mainly for flavour). Alternatively, a Ranger-style Companion would work to a degree.

EDIT: I was getting Binders mixed up with Incarnates somehow (I'll check Binders out soon).

vampire2948
2008-08-18, 02:57 AM
How about:

1) Familiar grants you a metamagic feat every 5 levels, only usable when it's with you.

2) Imbue Staff feats tweaked for familiars?




Vampire2948,

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-18, 03:16 AM
That would work as well (especially since staffs are a steriotypical impliment for this type of spellcaster). Do you guys think allowing a staff/familiar and a Ranger-style animal companion would be too unbalancing?

F.L.
2008-08-18, 05:38 AM
You're upping a NPC class. There's a lot you'd have to do before it would become unbalanced. The animal companion may be pushing it though, but if it fits the flavor, go for it.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-18, 06:11 AM
Thanks. I remember someone mentioning a while back that Adepts had a really good spell list, so I was worried about overpowering it that way (I wanted it to have a relatively limited spell list which fits with the spells the class already has).

Eldariel
2008-08-18, 06:14 AM
The one spell about them that is overpowered is Polymorph. That's the single reason they're on par with optimized Fighters. Take away that and you're good to go.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-18, 06:21 AM
Did you have any other advice, and do you think Polymorph is too powerful? (I don't like the idea of up-staging other party members unless they do something ridiculous like dump Con.:smalltongue:)

Eldariel
2008-08-18, 06:25 AM
I'm just pointing out why someone may have mentioned something about Adepts potentially being overpowered - if you remove their access to Polymorph, they become little more than Clerics with access to some blasting (and in exchange, losing the real juicy spell levels). So if you don't allow them to utilize Polymorph, you're free to buff them up pretty much as much as you want to. Really, an Adept is a cross between a Wizard and a Cleric by how the spells fall - lacks the versatility of both, but has tools from both sides. As long as you advance it in that manner (and remove Polymorph), you're fine.

In other words, if you DO use Polymorph, you can upset party balance plenty. If not, there's no danger whatsoever of upsetting the party balance :P

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-18, 06:34 AM
Thanks for the clarification. Apart from the familar/staff-powered Sudden Metamagics/Enchew Materials and companion, I'm not sure what else would work well (limited Wildshape would fit, but it could be too powerful, even if the only get medium shapes much later on).

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-08-18, 06:41 AM
Hexer from Masters of the Wild (3.0 but still usable) is a really decent PrC and Adept is the only class which can meet the spellcasting prerequisite without additional tricks. Use other full casting PrCs to get out of the Adept's abysmally low HD/BAB/saves asap and it could actually be a viable character.


I once ran a super-low-magic game which used vitality and wound points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm) and didn't allow any spellcasting classes at all other than 1/2 CL 4th level spell classes like Ranger, Paladin, and Hexblade, with Adept being the only full spellcasting class allowed (this was before Tome of Battle was printed), and Blackguard the only PrC with a separate spellcasting progression allowed. I'd houseruled that wound damage and ability damage couldn't be healed by anything but normal rest, ability drain was downgraded to ability damage, and level drain never became permanent level loss, instead allowing another save every 24 hrs to remove it. It actually worked really well, everyone had a lot of fun not being outdone by the spellcasters.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-18, 06:46 AM
Hexer looks interresting, but it wouldn't fit with the type of characters which I use (I'm useless at playing non-good characters). Also, http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.0Index-PrestigeClasses.pdf only mentions the first 2 class levels. Don't forget that I'd only use an Adept if I could use full spellcasting progression, so it probably wouldn't be that weak (was the Adept overshadowed in your game at all? I'm just curious due to how long it takes them to gain spells).

Fan
2008-08-18, 09:09 AM
0 lvl spells: Flare, and Light VERY typical for the hedge wizards.
1st: color spray, seems VERY mysticy to me, with the whole prismatic spray of light.
2nd: Summon monster II, seems like the sort of thin they would have, cept any creature they summoun would have to be infernal.. invisiblity
3rd: lightning bolt.

and just use a every third level progression for metamagic feats, that can only be used in the presence of a familiar.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-18, 09:10 AM
They already get Lightning Bolt.:smalltongue: Thanks for the ideas (I wanted to avoid adding spells which didn't go with spells they already have, though, so Invisibility and summoning spells don't really work). Colour Spray and the Light-based Orisons fit well, though.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-18, 10:29 AM
What about a Gestalt Sorcerer based Witch// Adept using the two NPC classes. (Witch class is on page 175 DMG you could use either the Beguiler or the Sorcerer Known Spell Variant for the spell list).

Should be comparable to a PC (Gestalt Lite with 2 NPCs) and gets some ninth level spellcasting. Probably should treat the class like a Paladin and prohibit taking PRCs that increase spellcasting in more than a single class or the suggested Gestalt rules. A strong feat would adding Arcane Disciple.

If you use the ECS variant you can give the Adept a single domain to increase known spells. ECS Sharn City of Towers slightly tweaks the Urban Adept spell list compared to the standard Adept.

What about a Psychic Adept using the psionic mechanic of the Psychic Rogue 15 first to fifth level powers with 100 PP at L20.

What about a Gestalt Binder Adept for a Cultmaster type?

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-18, 12:35 PM
That honestly sounds way too complicated for me. I've seen the Witch variant on Crystal Keep, and I'm honestly not impressed due to how limited its spell list is (I decided that adding more spell levels to the Adept would be much easier, and it would be much more effective then using Witch spells later on). I don't want to use Psionics for flavour reasons, and I don't like the look of Psionics that much. Also, what are the Sorcerer Known Spell Variant and ECS variant? I don't like the idea of using Gestalt builds either due to the complexity, and it would possibly be overpowered in a normal game.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-18, 01:04 PM
That honestly sounds way too complicated for me. I've seen the Witch variant on Crystal Keep, and I'm honestly not impressed due to how limited its spell list is (I decided that adding more spell levels to the Adept would be much easier, and it would be much more effective then using Witch spells later on). I don't want to use Psionics for flavour reasons, and I don't like the look of Psionics that much. Also, what are the Sorcerer Known Spell Variant and ECS variant? I don't like the idea of using Gestalt builds either due to the complexity, and it would possibly be overpowered in a normal game.

I agree simple is good. Gestalt lite Adept//Witch since NPC levels are weaker than PC levels.

My thought was that the DMG Witch spell list (page 175) would keep it comparable to a PC class level. Choosing known spells mechanically like a Sorcerer would be weaker than knowing the whole spell list leveling like a Beguiler or Warmage and knowing all the spells. The Witch spell list could be powered up with Feats.

ECS grants the Adept a Single Domain to increase his known spells without the daily spell bonus. The ECS (Eberron Campaign Setting) Urban Adept tweaks the spell list of the Urban Adept compared to the standard Adept.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-18, 01:11 PM
i'm still not interrested in using the Witch's spell list due to how it's so different to the Adept's spell list. (Incidentally, are the spells I added okay?)

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-18, 01:14 PM
i'm still not interrested in using the Witch's spell list due to how it's so different to the Adept's spell list. (Incidentally, are the spells I added okay?)

No issues but you could call the Variant Cloistered Cleric an Adept (Clerical spells and 3 domains, D6 and 6 SPs. (You could do the ECS trick and have the domain spells added to the known spell list instead of granting the daily bonus spell)

Nice house rule is to have a Personal Domain the PC picks the bonus spell for each level which would work well with the Variant Cloistered Cleric.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-18, 01:20 PM
If I'm honest, I don't like CCs that much due to how I don't think their skills and skill points are worth them being nerfed as far as combat goes (also, what's wrong with the suggestions which have been made so far? I'm just curious due to how you're suggestions seem to be more complicated while being much more radical then the other ideas).

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-18, 01:27 PM
I was just thinking that it would be interresting to create a 3.5 chartacter who's an Adept with full casting, but I'm not sure how to balance them with PC classes without going overboard.


IMO a Gestalt Adept//Witch grants the PC full spellcasting with quite a bit of variety and is actually probably slightly superior to a PC through level 6 or 7 depending on the the known spells for the Witch list without feats which can improve the spell lists since both spell lists have good spells on them. I'm just offering a few suggestions like this is a brainstorming session.



If I'm honest, I don't like CCs that much due to how I don't think their skills and skill points are worth them being nerfed as far as combat goes (also, what's wrong with the suggestions which have been made so far? I'm just curious due to how you're suggestions seem to be more complicated while being much more radical then the other ideas).
Nothing however Adept comes with baggage, it conveys a certain type of spellcaster and spellcasting capablility. I think arcane/divine spellcaster with D6 capped at level 5 spells.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-18, 01:30 PM
Wouldn't just adding to the normal spell list be easier, though? I'm guessing from your "some ninth level spellcasting" comment that you were planning on leaving the Adept spell list as it is, right?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-18, 01:35 PM
Wouldn't just adding to the normal spell list be easier, though? I'm guessing from your "some ninth level spellcasting" comment that you were planning on leaving the Adept spell list as it is, right?

Maybe but it seems like you are doing more (which is fine) since the Adept is limited to Poor BAB, D6, a very limited known spell list, capped at fifth level spells and now you are giving them ninth level spells and more spellcasting.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-18, 01:36 PM
I thought that was the simplest approach to be honest (it took less then 10 minutes to pick out Wizard and Cleric spells which I thought fitted with their existing spell list).

mabriss lethe
2008-08-18, 01:37 PM
spell list:

I'm not sure I agree with the flavor of Meteor swarm. Maybe Storm of Vengeance instead. they seem more like "call up a wrathful storm" type instead of a "drop burning rocks from the sky" type.

Also, sympathy and antipathy as either an 8th or 9th level spell fit the idea of an adept really well. As crusty ol' hermits nothing says "keep out" quite so well as antipathy.

maybe glyph of warding and greater glyph, might as well add the rest of the [random animal's] Ability score buff spells to the list.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-18, 01:40 PM
It may be. What about a Variant Favored Soul of a God of Magic? It could choose from all spell lists like (Adept, Arcane and Divine like the Variant Spellcaster). Basically just opening up spell lists the balance is the PC has limited fixed known spells from open lists.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-18, 01:41 PM
That is a good point about Storm of Vengance (I just didn't think the spell was that worthwhile, which is why I used Meteor Swarm). Also, would Sympathy and Antipathy have much of a point to them considering that Repulsion is on the list? I'll look over the Glyphs in a minute while considering adding the other animal buffs.

EDIT: I don't really like Glyph of Warding that much (it probably wouldn't be used that much in most games, and I wanted the spell list to be as versatile as possible while still being limited).

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-18, 01:43 PM
I would consider adding Lesser Planar Ally, Anyspell and Anyspell (Greater).

What about a Variant Neutral based Ur Priest PRC? The Adept PRC using the Adept and Divine spell lists?

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-18, 01:45 PM
What does Anyspell do?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-18, 01:47 PM
Anyspell (L3) lets a divine caster study a arcane scroll or spellbook and cast a cantrip to second level spell (basically 15 minutes to study the spell).

Anyspell Greater (L6) opens up spells to fifth level.

Another way to balance Adepts as a NPC class is to give them the Archivist spellcasting mechanic minus two spells at each level.

mabriss lethe
2008-08-18, 01:51 PM
Sympathy and antipathy Vs. Repulsion

Repulsion is sort of a personal version of antipathy. short duration, wider range of targets lower spell level. Antipathy/sympathy are the sorts of spells that a reclusive adept might use to draw travellers away from his shack in the woods/to a rather inconvenient and humiliating trap should they persist. By the time you can cast it, it'll last better than a day per casting. If anything, both repusion and sym/antipathy fit the flavor and could be seen as a natural progression of power.

Additional Class features

The archivist suggestion gave me an idea for something a bit weaker, but still useful. Give the Adept an Advanced Learning feature where they can add a limited number of spells to their list. I'm not sure how you might want to limit that list, maybe "any one spell of X, Y, or Z schools" maybe take a page from the spellthief and restrict advanced learning to abjuration, divination, enchantment, Illusion or transmutation.

edit for additional class features

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-18, 01:55 PM
That is a good point, Mabriss. I'll think about that one. I don't like using spells to cast lower levels spells, so I don;t like Any Spell that much. Do you guys have any other ideas for spells which would fit which do things which spells I've already added to the Adept list don't do?

mabriss lethe
2008-08-18, 02:09 PM
Maybe mark of justice? they already have bestow/remove curse, so it's sort of a natural extension of that. It also fits with that crochety hermit mystique they have.

"I've warned you boys to leave me alone. Now you're going to promise me you'll never come back here again and I'm going to make sure that promise sticks."

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-18, 02:10 PM
That would work. It doesn't appear to be the sort of spell a player would use very often, though (this is awkward due to the risk of making them too versatile). Also, I'm sure that there are some young Adepts as well.:smalltongue:

mabriss lethe
2008-08-18, 02:17 PM
bestow curse (and by extension MoJ), by RAW, is one of the most overlooked abusables on the planet to begin with. The rules of the spell let you do pretty much anything as long as it doesn't exceed the power of the standard listed effects. and it's permanent.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-18, 02:19 PM
I'd forgotten about Bestow Curse (it;s useful and it fits). Thanks for that one.:smallsmile: I'll add Spell Resistance as well.

mabriss lethe
2008-08-18, 03:11 PM
They already have bestow and remove curse as 3rd level spells. I was just pointing out that a creative player can do "very bad things" with bestow curse or MoJ.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-18, 04:19 PM
I'd like to see the class receive some Specials:

A1 Bonus Domain
A4 Freebie +1 Spell Secret like a Wujen
A5 Divine Grace
A7 Improved Familiar or a NPC Cohort as if the PC possessed the leadership feat
A9 Second Domain
A8 Second Freebie +1 Spell Secret
A12 Third Freebie +1 Spell Secret
A16 Fourth Freebie +1 Spell Secret
A17 Third Domain
A20 Fifth Freebie +1 Spell Secret

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-19, 12:25 AM
What would the Freebies do, and would the Secret Spells have Taboos? Also, I was thinkng about giving them 1 Wizard or Cleric Domain with it working in the same way as a Wizard Domain (ie: they have to use the spell for the Domain slot while also adding it to their normal spell list). I think I'll add Rope Trick and Slow to the spell list.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-19, 12:30 AM
Freebie meta apply a meta feat you don't have to know to a single spell without an increase in level.

Instead of Slow what about the first level spell Sticky Floor from Races of Dragon. (Basically a reversed Grease with a 10' by 10' area regardless of level but 1 hour a level and works through footwear.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-19, 01:01 AM
I thought that Grease worked if anyone affectyed by it was wearing shoes? I was thinking of them getting a Sudden Metamagc feat at every 5th level as long as their familiar/staff was with them. I'll look up Stickly Floor soon (I still want to keep Slow, though).

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-19, 01:10 AM
Should have posted more concisely I was only referring to the Sticky Floor spell (No slipping out of your footware to escape the spell but you can make lots of checks over 1/hour a level :smallamused:).

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-19, 01:17 AM
Thanks for clarifying. I never heard of that trick to escape Grease; I thought the floor itself was slippery and that it didn't affect footwear (to be fair, out of the 5 characters I've made so far, only one of them wears shoes, so that tactic wouldn't help me much:smalltongue:).

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-19, 07:02 AM
That honestly sounds way too complicated for me. I've seen the Witch variant on Crystal Keep, and I'm honestly not impressed due to how limited its spell list is (I decided that adding more spell levels to the Adept would be much easier, and it would be much more effective then using Witch spells later on). What are the Sorcerer Known Spell Variant and ECS variant? .

If you look in the DMG the spell list of the adapt and the spell list of the witch are pritty similar... i would suggest using the witch's spell list but use more of a wizard progression or the adepts progrssion.. just because alot of the changes you are making are pritty much what the witch spell list has... but i would use a wizards progrssion and class as the base just change the spell list to a witches.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-19, 08:56 AM
Would you recommend using prepared spell casting with the Witch's list? I'll look back over it but I honestly don't remember that many of the higher level spells really being worthwhile the last time I looked at it.

EDIT: Checking the list, it was more a case of the spells being poor for a spontaneous caster (to be honest, I still prefer the spells I added to the Adept list so far).

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-19, 09:57 AM
Consider making it somewhat unique. Gestalt lite - Keep the spontaneous casting for the Witch side which has a few decent spells at each level (Foresight and Shapechange) and praying for the Adept side. The Witch side spell casting can be improved with a mix of feats and PRCs: Arcane Disciple feat or tweaking a Feat like the Nexus Method to work for any caster. Throw in a Draconic or other bloodline feat

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Arcane_Disciple,all

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Nexus_Method,all

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-19, 10:05 AM
Would you recommend using prepared spell casting with the Witch's list? I'll look back over it but I honestly don't remember that many of the higher level spells really being worthwhile the last time I looked at it.

EDIT: Checking the list, it was more a case of the spells being poor for a spontaneous caster (to be honest, I still prefer the spells I added to the Adept list so far).

the higher level witch spells arn't that bad and they fit the adept theme, As i always vision adepts as being witch's any way.. kinda the shrew at the edge of town.... only you get potions from her/him...
the witch spell list actualy isn't that bad. i would say add in the spells you picked out to the wtich's spell list... gives it a little bit of versititlity in the way a character can pick there spells. also makes each witch a little more unique.
I would keep it prepared though... sponinaity and witch/adapts for me don't seem to go

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-19, 10:15 AM
Witches are basically a Sorcerer variant so they cast spells spontaneously. Which specific Witch spells would you want to add to the Adept spell list? (I don't want them to become too powerful.)

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-19, 10:34 AM
Witches are basically a Sorcerer variant so they cast spells spontaneously. Which specific Witch spells would you want to add to the Adept spell list? (I don't want them to become too powerful.)

also do you have an exaple of what you consider an adept from storys/movies/what not... i always viewed them as the hermit in a village or a village witch(not nessaserily evil)

by the way screw the sorcerer aspect... im just talkign about the spell list not how they cast..

pritty much all of them.. after looking over the two lists... it won't be over powered to mesh the two lists together. i meen there still no wizards and where your not getting any bonus feets or what not....

I meen with most the sugestions up above your just making a wizard that has to have his familiar with him to use any of his bonus feets. i always liked the adept for her unique spell list.. which is easily applied to a wizards and just calling it an adept or witch or what not. ( i personaly prefer the name adept over witch)

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-19, 12:23 PM
Thanks for telling me. I didn't want to add any other bonus feats due to thinking the Ranger animal companion would overpower them if they had feats as well. I'm not honstly sure what I'd consider a steriotypical Adept to be. Do you think adding the Summon Nature's Ally spells to the list would help, and what do you think of my Domain idea?

Sorry about missing those links earlier, CASTLEMIKE. To be honest, I don't like either of those feats (Arcane Deciple would equate to my Domain idea while being less effective, and Nexus Method isn;t that great; I know SNA spells are better in combat then SM spells). Also, I still don't like the idea of having 2 separate spell lists.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-19, 12:36 PM
Just tossing a few ideas in the pot. Curious what the end product Adept is going to look like. :smallsmile:

There is the variant that a sorcerer or wizard can trade a familiar for a animal companion as a druid of half his level if you wish to ramp it down.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-19, 12:37 PM
the reason i ask what you consider an adapt to be is because we can focus on building the class to your needs. if your giving them an animal companion i would say they progression of abilitys would be like so

lvl1 -
lvl2- familar
lvl3-
lvl4-animal companion

and have it so they have to designate the animal companion as there familiar also...
there animal is like a rangers animal companon.. (so there level -4) and it ounts as a familiar.. which would add alot of flavor..


judging by question about summon natures ally im guessing your taking this more nature oriented rather then planar.. so yes i would add that spell progression.
As far as the domain ehh thats iffy i would choose between the animal companion and a domain...

i'd prefer the animal...


although you could give them liek the nature or animal or plant domain later on.... also may want to give them brew potion as a bonus feet some where,

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-19, 12:40 PM
That's a good idea about combining the companion and familiar. Would the familiar's skill/saving throw bonus and Alertness still be granted once the familiar becomes a companion? (I'm guessing it wouldn't be too overpowering.) I tend to see them as more nature-based due to their fluff. I like the idea about adding Brew Potion (parhaps it could happen at level 5?), and I think adding spells from either the Plant or Animal Domain at level 10 would work as well.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-19, 12:42 PM
That's a good idea about combining the companion and familiar. Would the familiar's skill/saving throw bonus and Alertness still be granted once the familiar becomes a companion? (I'm guessing it wouldn't be too overpowering.) I tend to see them as more nature-based due to their fluff. I like the idea about adding Brew Potion (parhaps it could happen at level 5?), and I think adding spells from either the Plant or Animal Domain at level 10 would work as well.

basiacly i would have them apply the familiar abilities as if they where a wizard equal to there adept level and apply the animal companion abilitys as if they where a druid equal to adept levels -3

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-19, 12:46 PM
Thanks. Wouldn't using Ranger companion progression be better with them starting with a 4th level ranger companion at level 4? (I know that Druid companions are much stronger, unless the -3 penalty would counter that.)

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-19, 12:54 PM
it would because the ranger entry states that there animal companion is as if they where a druid lvl - 3


so basicaly an adept at level 4 counts as a 1st level druid for the purposes of determaning there animal companions abilitys

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-19, 12:57 PM
Thanks (sorry about that; I've never really looked at the companion abilities to be honest). So far, we've got the extended spell list (possibly with some Witch spells), a Familiar which becomes a Ranger companion at level 4, as well as companion-based Enschew Materials and a Sudden Metamagic feat at every 5th level. Do you think it needs anything else? i was thinking about them having 4 skill points rather then just 2.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-19, 01:02 PM
Thanks (sorry about that; I've never really looked at the companion abilities to be honest). So far, we've got the extended spell list (possibly with some Witch spells), a Familiar which becomes a Ranger companion at level 4, as well as companion-based Enschew Materials and a Sudden Metamagic feat at every 5th level. Do you think it needs anything else? i was thinking about them having 4 skill points rather then just 2.

drop the sudden metamagic.. give them enschew materials at level 5 and brew poition at level 1

i would leave there skills at 2 and i'd add hide as a class skill

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-19, 01:08 PM
Okay. Would they be too weak without the Sudden Metamagics, though? Also, wouldn't having Enschew Materials earlier on make more sense considering the Exp. cost of making potions?

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-19, 01:13 PM
Okay. Would they be too weak without the Sudden Metamagics, though? Also, wouldn't having Enschew Materials earlier on make more sense considering the Exp. cost of making potions?

not sure basialy like a wizard accept adding animal companion and enschew.. youcan technicaly give them thebonus feets (the metamagic) at level one if you want ... its no big deal just figured some thign to work for.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-19, 01:14 PM
I didn't think it would be that much of a problem due to the companion being needed to use them. Shall we have it so that the companion must be within 30 feet of the Adept for these feats to function?

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-19, 01:16 PM
i'd say within 5 feet or something smaller then 30

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-19, 01:18 PM
i was initially going to have it as the same range as the familiar's normal abilities, but I thought that would make the companion useless in battle unless an enermy reaches the Adept (they aren't designed for close-quarter combat at all, so they can't go near the frontlines).

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-19, 01:20 PM
true i guess your right im a bit weary of sudden metamagic...

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-19, 01:21 PM
I started a thread about it a while back, and the concensus seemed to be that a Metamagic rod was better, so I assumed they weren't that powerful.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-19, 01:23 PM
tghe rods the reason why... i ususaly encourage players not to take it or i just don't allow the rod.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-19, 01:25 PM
Do you see the rods as overpowered? (Don;t forget that they can be used at least 3 times while each Sudden Metamagic can only be used once/day).

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-19, 01:27 PM
it actualy depends... i prefer the feats because they make a character give up a higher level spell..

ehh eather way its a little off topic i'd say your good.. i would add brew potion as its deffinetly fluffy

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-19, 01:32 PM
Do you think any other class features are really needed for this adaptation?

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-19, 01:35 PM
no i think if you added any more it would be pushing over powered.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-19, 01:39 PM
please do a full class write up and post it on here as im curious what it will look like

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-19, 01:39 PM
Thanks.:smallsmile: Do you know how to make tables on this forum? (It isn't too essential, but I'm curious about what it would look like.)

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-20, 12:17 AM
You should be able to copy and paste something from homebrew.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-20, 12:45 AM
Okay thanks (I'll try doing that now. If I succeed, I'll edit this post.)

Alignment: Any
Starting Age: Advanced (or just do what I do and always start at the youngest age.:smalltongue:)
Adept (PC modification) Hit Die: d6
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Wizard Familiar which grants Enschew Materials.

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Familiar becomes Ranger Companion

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Companion dependant Sudden-Metamagic feat.

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Add Brew Potion as a free feat.

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|
8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6|

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6|Add all of the spells from either the Animal or Plant Domains to the Adept's spell list.

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Companion dependant Sudden-Metamagic feat.

11th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|

12th|
+6/1|
+4|
+4|
+8|

13th|
+6/1|
+4|
+4|
+8|

14th|
+7/2|
+4|
+4|
+9|

15th|
+7/2|
+5|
+5|
+9|Companion dependant Sudden-Metamagic feat.

16th|
+8/3|
+5|
+5|
+10|

17th|
+8/3|
+5|
+5|
+10|

18th|
+9/4|
+6|
+6|
+11|

19th|
+9/4|
+6|
+6|
+11|

20th|
+10/5|
+6|
+6|
+12|Companion dependant Sudden-Metamagic feat.[/table]

Class Skills (4 + Int modifier per level, ×4 at 1st level)
Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Survival (Wis).

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Adepts are skilled with all simple weapons. Adepts are not proficient with any type of armor nor with shields.
Class features:

Spells: Casts Wis-based spells from the enhanced Adept spell list (see below).

Familiar: works like a Wizard's Familiar while granting Enschew Materials as long as the Familiar is within 5 feet of the Adept.

Companion: the Familiar becomes a Ranger Animal Companion. The range for the Familiar's bonus features extends to 30 feet (if the familiar is further away, the Adept loses Enchew Materials as well as Alertness, the skill/saving throw bonus and access to Sudden Metamagic feats until the Companions goes back to within 30 feet of them).

Sudden Metamagic: add any Sudden Metamagic feat which you qualify for as long as your familiar is within 30 feet (each SMM will allow you to apply a Metamagic feat to any 1 of your spells everyday with no spell level increase).

Brew Potion: works as the normal feat.

Domain Access: spells are prepared normally (use the Cleric Domains for this class feature).

It will take me a while to add everything.

Spell list; all spells need Wis equal to 10+spell level to cast. Wis is also used for bonus spells and the spell's Save DC.
0—create water, cure minor wounds, detect magic, ghost sound, guidance, light, mending, prestigitation purify food and drink, read magic, touch of fatigue.

1st—bless, burning hands, cause fear, command, comprehend languages, cure light wounds, detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, endure elements, obscuring mist, protection from chaos, protection from evil, protection from good, protection from law, sleep, summon nature's ally 1.

2nd—aid, animal trance, bear’s endurance, bull’s strength, cat’s grace, cure moderate wounds, darkness, delay poison, invisibility, mirror image, resist energy, rope trick, scorching ray, see invisibility, summon nature's ally 2, web.

3rd—animate dead, bestow curse, contagion, continual flame, cure serious wounds, daylight, deeper darkness, lightning bolt, neutralize poison, remove curse, remove disease, slow, summon nature's 3, ally tongues.

4th—cure critical wounds, minor creation, polymorph, rainbow pattern, restoration, shout, stoneskin, summon nature's ally 4, wall of fire.

5th—baleful polymorph, break enchantment, commune, major creation, mass cure light wounds, raise dead, summon nature's ally 5, true seeing, wall of stone.

6th- Heal, Blade Barrier, Greater Dispell, Banishment, Undeath to Death, Chain Lightning, Perminant Image, Cure Moderate Wounds Mass, Create Undead, Summon Nature's Ally 6.

7th- Mass Cure Serious Wounds, Spell Turning, Prismatic Spray, Repulsion, Control Weather, Resurrection, Regenerate, Greater Restoration, Summon Nature's Ally 7.

8th- Cure Crtical Wounds Mass, Firestorm, Greater Spell Immunity, Prismatic Wall, Sunburst, Greater Shout, Create Greater Undead, Polymorph Any Object, Summon Nature's Ally 8.

9th- Mass Heal, True Ressurrection, Gate, Meteor Swarm, Prismatic Sphere, Miracle, Summon Nature's Ally 9.

Check the Generalist Wizard's spells/day table to see how many spells Adepts can cast/day; http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Wizard (Familiar information can also be found here). Spell recovery requires 8 hours of sleep and 1 hour of uninterrupted meditation. A Holy Symbol is also needed to cast spells.

Variant rule: remove Sudden Metamagics and Companion/Familiar. Replace Familiar with Imbued Staff (page 19 of http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Creatures.pdf ) and grant 1 Wizard or Cleric Domain as long as the Adept has his/her staff http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard ). OnlyDomain spells can be stored in the Domain slots. Domain spells can't be stored in normal slots unless they are on the Adept's normal list. The staff also grants Eschew Materials when it is held by the Adept.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-20, 01:01 AM
Off to a great start cooking with fire :smallsmile:

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-20, 01:39 AM
I've finished it. How does it look?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-20, 01:46 AM
Looks pretty good minor typo with Eschew Spells, :smallsmile: I make typos all the time.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-20, 01:50 AM
Thanks (I altered that while adding the weapon and armour proficiencies). If anyone has any ideas for spells which haven't been made, I'l consider adding to the spell list (I only really want to add up to 1 more spell for each level, though).

EDIT: I'm adding an extra 2 skill points due to how many class sklls Adepts have.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-20, 01:55 AM
Calling it a night will look at it again tomorrow.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-20, 07:03 AM
i would keep the class skills at two... to follow in lien with the other full casters...

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-20, 08:36 AM
Druids get 4 skill points, though. Also, I was thinking of a way to use Invocations; would allowing the Adept to have a free Bloodline feat at level 2 before giving them a free Warlock Invocation at levels 5,10, 15 and 20 while not giving them an animal companion or familiar work as an alternative class feature? They could be limited to Least or Lesser ones at levels 5 and 10 while getting Greater Invocations at levels 15 and 20 (barring them from using the Extra Invocation feat would be wise as well).

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-20, 08:44 AM
Druids get 4 skill points, though. Also, I was thinking of a way to use Invocations; would allowing the Adept to have a free Bloodline feat at level 2 before giving them a free Warlock Invocation at levels 5,10, 15 and 20 while not giving them an animal companion or familiar work as an alternative class feature? They could be limited to Least or Lesser ones at levels 5 and 10 while getting Greater Invocations at levels 15 and 20 (barring them from using the Extra Invocation feat would be wise as well).

that may be so with druids... but i don't see this character being very druidy.. they also have hinderances that balance that out...
you asked us to tell you if some thing is over powered, and i think 4 is opushing it...
I also think what you have here is perfectly fine i would leave it as is...

i wouldn't add the warlock invocations... takes away from the warlock and dragon fire adept.. and is realy to flavor that you where working on before.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-20, 08:47 AM
Okay thanks (my idea behind the Bloodlines feat and Invocations is that it could represent other divine power sources other then nature). Which hinderances were you refering to?

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-20, 08:54 AM
for druids.. alignment restrictions, weapon armour restrictions etc

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-20, 08:57 AM
Okay thanks. (are those really problems ingame, though? Wildshape is really powerful.) What sort of features would you have to represent other power sources for Adepts?

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-20, 09:04 AM
the question is...

Does there realy need to have other power sources?

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-20, 09:05 AM
Not really. I just thought it would be good to have a altenative for people who didn't want an animal companion.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-20, 09:14 AM
Not really. I just thought it would be good to have a altenative for people who didn't want an animal companion.

Elemental Companion from Complete Mage which improves as the PC levels or Improved Special Familiar at L8 after receiving a familiar at L2.

Instead of an invocation perhaps a single reserve feat or a Dragon Shaman Aura but Divinely based Aura or the Variant Limited Ranger Wild Shaping.

IMO the new Adept class has surpassed the Samauri PC class.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-20, 09:16 AM
then they play a wizard with an alternate spell list?


Edit: or that castle mike

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-20, 09:24 AM
I like the limited WS and aura ideas. How often would you guys grant auras?

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-20, 09:27 AM
i think adding more stuff will make it over powered especialy if you add dragon auras.. why play a DS when i can play this?


edit: I think having the ability to stack familrar and an animal compainion is pritty powerfull cuz remember there the same creature. it could get pritty potent..


mm wolf...

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-20, 09:29 AM
That is a good point (I wanted a different class feature which didn't need another character to be honest; I really like the ideas regarding the companion, but I tend to prefer the idea of only playing as 1 character due to getting confused easily).

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-20, 09:30 AM
Probably go with 1, 8 and 15 or 3, 10 and 17 for picking up an aura. Starting Aura is based on the Marshal and Dragon Shaman or the Paladin picking up his Aura.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-20, 09:32 AM
I know what could work; would having a Staff which grants Reserve feats be as powerful as a combined familiar/companion which grants EM and Sudden Metamagic feats be balanced, or would the Staff Companion need something else to give it an extra boost?

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-20, 09:40 AM
well not sure but i think what you have works is balanced and has some good fluff... i would leave it as is... but thats just me...

I may actualy use the whole combine familiar and animal companion idea,.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-20, 09:47 AM
The variants offer a lot of options and are my standard for whether or not a class is to powerful (which is subjective to each person):

http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/variantClasses.htm

Finding a nice mix to personal taste:

Variant Expert - 1 for dipping skills and lots of skill points along with a bonus feat , Variant Spellcaster -1 for spellcasting (Choice of attribute (Int for skill points) and a bonus feat), Variant X - 1 to taste for another bonus feat, Variant Spellcaster +17

Skill points at L20 unless human 24 + 38 + Intelligence mod times 23
6 open Variant Bonus feats plus standard feat options.
Limited ninth level spellcasting which can be improved via PRCs or Feats.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-20, 10:01 AM
I've seen a lot of these before thanks (I kind of like the Generic classes). I was thinking about letting an Adept with a staff use a Wizard or Cleric Domain while only being able to use the Domain spell for the Domain slot while not being able to prepare that spell in any other slots unless it's on their standard spell list in exchange for the Familiar/Companion and the Sudden Metamagics. Would that work? (I'm pleased you like the combination idea, RagnaroksChosen.:smallsmile:)

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-20, 10:08 AM
Kind of like making the Staff a Focus or even a Construct Familiar. Should probably include Eschew Materials feat and maybe a +1CL bump using the staff and a -1CL when the staff is lost or stolen or he has to cast without it.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-20, 10:11 AM
The CL increase, as well as using it as a focus, is a really good idea. Do you think only applying the increased Caster level to some spells would be a good idea, or would it still be balanced if it applied to all spell schools?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-20, 10:39 AM
To keep it simple +1 CL to All Spells when in personal possession of the staff and -1CL to All Spells when not in personal possession.

ourmaninsaigon
2008-08-20, 11:47 AM
hi,

how noticed the staff comments earlier - how about an adept/ancestral weapon style blend - an otherwise rubbish spellcaster beefed up by a powerful item - staves being most obvious?

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-20, 12:25 PM
Hello.:smallsmile:I wanted it as a full caster to be honest. That's an interresting idea, but I'd sooner keep them focussed on magic.