I feel like the strip has really slowed down...

[Godric]

Roy has been dead for a long time, everyone just seems to be endlessly wandering without accomplishing a single thing. The comic doesn't seem to be/feel like it's heading anywhere at all at this point. It obviously is, but there isn't any excitement or anticipation or well, I'm not sure. I've just noticed that as of late I'm not enjoying the strip as much as I once was.

I feel like there are too many viewpoints to be considering for a 3/week updated strip to have any sense of flow or pace.

[Lissou]

Roy has been dead for a long time, everyone just seems to be endlessly wandering without accomplishing a single thing. The comic doesn't seem to be/feel like it's heading anywhere at all at this point. It obviously is, but there isn't any excitement or anticipation or well, I'm not sure. I've just noticed that as of late I'm not enjoying the strip as much as I once was.

I feel like there are too many viewpoints to be considering for a 3/week updated strip to have any sense of flow or pace.

I think it's meant to be that way. By which I mean, there was a storm (the Azure City Battle) and now it's the calm that follows. Stuff is happening, no doubt, but it might seem les so because so much was happening at the time.
Also, don't forget there were many viewpoints during the battle as well: the heroes were already split, the villains were as well, and there was the linear guild, too.

I think a webcomic, in essence, offers a very small progresion with each update, but when you re-read it it feel different. It's that way for me, at any rate.

This being said, I guess I could understand if you wanted to read the webcomic only once a month so more happens each time. But in my opinion, it's normal, a good story has to go through calm phases and action phases. And I really much appreaciate the split stories.

[T-O-E]

If i'm flaming then i'm sorry, I don't mean to be.

Dnd is a world where if you die, you can be ressurected or you can re-roll your character. I think Roy's long-overdue death is Rich Burlew's way of saying that death (the worst thing to happen to a character besides having their soul stolen or destroyed) is still serious in a world where raises are common-place. This had to happen else people wouldn't really care if a main character died, they'd think that he/she'd be back the next day.

Plus, the strip would eventually get stale if it was just 6 adventurers making jokes.

[Jayabalard]

Also, don't forget there were many viewpoints during the battle as well: the heroes were already split, the villains were as well, and there was the linear guild, too.As I recall, we had complaints about the story slowing down at that point as well, so that's not really much of a counter-argument.

[headhoncho]

Roy has been dead for a long time, everyone just seems to be endlessly wandering without accomplishing a single thing. The comic doesn't seem to be/feel like it's heading anywhere at all at this point. It obviously is, but there isn't any excitement or anticipation or well, I'm not sure. I've just noticed that as of late I'm not enjoying the strip as much as I once was.


I'm with you. OOTS used to be my favorite work of serial media. It has slipped a number of notches, mostly due to the apparently interminable nature of the Dead Roy plot point. I feel like he could have been raised 100 strips ago, and it wouldn't have been too soon.

The splitting of the OOTS has also made things less interesting for me. I actually anticipate Erfworld much more than OOTS right now, which is pretty amazing given my former love of OOTS.

Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy it a lot. The dialogue is still incredibly clever. Story/plot wise, however, it's just a far cry from what it once was, IMO. It's starting to feel like the mid-books of the Robert Jordan Wheel of Time epic for me, with things feeling really dragged out.

[Lissou]

As I recall, we had complaints about the story slowing down at that point as well, so that's not really much of a counter-argument.

But didn't we have complaints about the story slowing down from as long as there has been an actual story?

[NerfTW]

There have been complaints when they left the dungeon, when they did the prison/trial/oracle part, when they did the Cliffport side quest, when they did the Elan's escape story, when they did each part of the battle, and when Rich bothered to show Roy in heaven.

Suffice to say, there have been "The strip has really slowed down" complaints since the strip began. Different people like different plots. Although I don't see how there's too many plots right now. There was the prerequisite Team Evil interlude, Roy trying to contact someone, and the two main plots of Team Hinjo and Team Haley.

I think the problem is people complaining are focusing on Roy being raised, which at this point should just be considered "sometime in the future, possibly not before the next gate.". Also, getting to the next gate. Roy and Team Evil should just be considered the same as the Linear Guild and Miko. They're out there, but they won't show up until it's relevent.

[mofabulous]

In my opinion Roy is the focus of the team.

Its his team. He did the work to get everyone together. The whole first story arc established him as THE comic. The OoTS was in that dungeon for his quest and his interaction with the members provided the story.

With no Roy the OoTS is just lost. None of the other characters compel the readers to follow this band of misfits as well as Roy. :smallfrown:

[Morty]

While I'm mostly happy with current pace of OoTS and feel neither the need to see Roy raised or -he's been in the centre of the spotlight for long enough- nor to see Order reunited -it provides a nice change of pace- I've recently noticed one funny thing: Haley's speech about easiness of ressurection in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html) strip doesn't fit very well with team's current struggles to get Roy raised.

[ZerglingOne]

Roy has been dead for a long time, everyone just seems to be endlessly wandering without accomplishing a single thing. The comic doesn't seem to be/feel like it's heading anywhere at all at this point. It obviously is, but there isn't any excitement or anticipation or well, I'm not sure. I've just noticed that as of late I'm not enjoying the strip as much as I once was.

I feel like there are too many viewpoints to be considering for a 3/week updated strip to have any sense of flow or pace.

Well think about it. If you read 1 page of a good novel every 3 days, you'd feel exactly the same way. You'd feel like nothing was going on in the story. Once this strip is done it'll seem like it was just the right amount of time to have Roy dead. Give it time, it'll be great in the end. :)

[NerfTW]

None of the other characters compel the readers to follow this band of misfits as well as Roy. :smallfrown:

Like you said, your opinion. I feel the other characters are quite capable of holding thier own in the story, Elan and Haley especially. And V is starting to become less of a one dimensional character. Durkon is still Durkon, the straight man, er Dwarf.

The plot has moved far beyond a simple adventuring group, and therefore needs to start fleshing out more characters and allies, or else the story will just become a cliched series of dungeon crawls/battles.

[Kish]

But didn't we have complaints about the story slowing down from as long as there has been an actual story?
Yes. We have.

[busterswd]

Roy has been dead for a long time, everyone just seems to be endlessly wandering without accomplishing a single thing. The comic doesn't seem to be/feel like it's heading anywhere at all at this point. It obviously is, but there isn't any excitement or anticipation or well, I'm not sure. I've just noticed that as of late I'm not enjoying the strip as much as I once was.

I feel like there are too many viewpoints to be considering for a 3/week updated strip to have any sense of flow or pace.

If nothing else, it's a good visual aid of how disorganized the order is without his leadership. Under Roy, they got things done. Without Roy, Vaarsuvious's megalomania overpowers his intelligence, Elan and Belkar run around doing pretty much whatever they want, Haley lacks the authority or will to make people listen to her, and Durkon is just the box of band aids that everyone ignores. If the order functioned perfectly without Roy, what would be the point of him being alive?

[Kaytara]

I'm completely with Lissou on this one. As I said elsewhere, every good story has its high and low points, and we wouldn't be able to appreciate the high ones without the low ones. Given the completely epic scale and the dynamics of the battle at Azure City, and how that ended for the heroes, it seems right that things have significantly slowed down. It takes a while to pick yourself up after such a massive defeat. You're free to feel that Roy could've been raised one hundred strips ago but to me, it would've made the entire subplot with getting him raised cheap and superfluous, just a random obstacle thrown at the heroes and not an actual integral part of the story, as it should be.

From a storytelling perspective, keeping Roy dead has been a very good move. It's called letting characters develop. The Order coping without Roy's leadership has been largely the point here, and you can't properly show how things deteriorate or grow over time if you don't let enough time pass. Things like that happen gradually, so a fast pacing would make them feel forced, rather than natural.
(EDIT: ninja'd by busterswd :D)

To headhoncho: Literally 'a hundred strips ago' happens to be the very first strip of Roy in heaven, which is the very next strip after At the End of the Day.
Only a hundred strips have passed since the battle, in the first place. So far, we've been served decently proportioned cutaways to Roy, Team Evil, Team Junk and Team Haley. All of those parts still focus on the separated members of the Order (with the exception of Team Evil, understandably) and when supporting cast is featured (like Therkla), it's only because of their proximity to the heroes. (I don't mean proximity in a literal, geographical sense. I just mean that they're around and involved. A counter-example would be the LG. Cutting away to them, now that WOULD slow down the plot.)

To M0rt: True, but Haley was talking about the antagonists coming back to haunt them. :P That's something very different. It's common knowledge that heroes have to struggle in every Rats in the Cellar side quest while villains just randomly have things fall into their laps. XD Also, she was talking about evil allies getting money to cast True Resurrection on Nale, and it's far easier for unscrupulous people to earn money than it is for heroes.

[Totally Guy]

To M0rt: True, but Haley was talking about the antagonists coming back to haunt them. :P That's something very different. It's common knowledge that heroes have to struggle in every Rats in the Cellar side quest while villains just randomly have things fall into their laps. XD Also, she was talking about evil allies getting money to cast True Resurrection on Nale, and it's far easier for unscrupulous people to earn money than it is for heroes.

That part of the story is foreshadowing. It is the first time the team has been shown to be a competent unit without Roy's involvement. The team is all grown up and ready to face the future without Roy, although we didn't know it at the time.

[Morty]

To M0rt: True, but Haley was talking about the antagonists coming back to haunt them. :P That's something very different. It's common knowledge that heroes have to struggle in every Rats in the Cellar side quest while villains just randomly have things fall into their laps. XD Also, she was talking about evil allies getting money to cast True Resurrection on Nale, and it's far easier for unscrupulous people to earn money than it is for heroes.

Villains have everything fall into their laps? I suppose it's true... expcept for the moment where they couldn't find a suitable V's evil twin and had to take an incompetent, horny half-elf. Or when the people they were counting on decided to not give a damn about them. Or when their hostage ran away from them. Also, I don't think we can call Haley much more "scrupulous" than Nale's potential allies. To sum up, Linear Guild has got as much chance of buying themselves a True Ressurection as OoTS does.

[Kaytara]

That part of the story is foreshadowing. It is the first time the team has been shown to be a competent unit without Roy's involvement. The team is all grown up and ready to face the future without Roy, although we didn't know it at the time.

Hm. You might have a point in that the TEAM is ready to stand on its own, but only if it is complete, with everyone balancing each other out, and not fractured as it is right now. The current disastrous state might be due to arbitrary circumstances. If V were stuck with Haley instead of Durkon and Elan, he probably wouldn't have become quite so obsessed, or rather, Haley wouldn't have let him. Similarly, Haley is more or less completely incapable of detaining Belkar in any way. He might be more under control with Elan, who amuses him, and Durkon, whose bashing power he somewhat respects. Maybe.
Probably not, though. XD

EDIT:

Villains have everything fall into their laps? I suppose it's true... expcept for the moment where they couldn't find a suitable V's evil twin and had to take an incompetent, horny half-elf. Or when the people they were counting on decided to not give a damn about them. Or when their hostage ran away from them. Also, I don't think we can call Haley much more "scrupulous" than Nale's potential allies. To sum up, Linear Guild has got as much chance of buying themselves a True Ressurection as OoTS does.

That part wasn't completely serious. (Note the smiley) I meant to point out that that's the tradition, but yes, OotS subverts tradition on a regular basis.

Still, the 'troubles' you listed aren't really anything compared to having to take on an Epic-level Lich, being nearly hanged by bandits because of a silly blunder, being nearly killed by a dragon, and then being beaten up, imprisoned and dragged to a faraway city in chains to stand trial for their lives. Oh, and being drafted to take this quest with the Gates and a monster that menaces even the gods. (You could say that Roy's teammates agreed to this, but it was Roy's decision to give them that much freedom, not Shojo's. Shojo wanted to hire the entire team.) Compared to that, "Ohmigod we can't find an ally who's the evil opposite of that elf, what are we gonna dooooo????" is rather petty. XD Not to mention that going through the trouble to find an evil opposite and not just any competent wizard, was entirely by choice.

Also, Haley may be a thief, but she's still Chaotic Good-ish. Not evil, not even neutral, but good. Nale probably earned a lot of gold from his killing spree in Cliffport. That's certainly something Haley would never have done, even in pressing circumstances. She's good-natured and avoids harming the innocent.

[mofabulous]

I just want Roy rez'd.

He's the heart and soul of the team to alot of us.:roy:

[Morty]

Still, the 'troubles' you listed aren't really anything compared to having to take on an Epic-level Lich, being nearly hanged by bandits because of a silly blunder, being nearly killed by a dragon, and then being beaten up, imprisoned and dragged to a faraway city in chains to stand trial for their lives. Compared to that, "Ohmigod we can't find an ally who's the evil opposite of that elf, what are we gonna dooooo????" is rather petty. XD Not to mention that going through the trouble to find an evil opposite and not just any competent wizard, was entirely by choice.

That's because Linear Guild doesn't take on challenges anywhere like those OoTS does. Order tries to save the world, while Linear Guild's activities to date were centered around Nale's petty revenge on his brother. And the bigger the challenge, the bigger the problem.


Also, Haley may be a thief, but she's still Chaotic Good-ish. Not evil, not even neutral, but good. Nale probably earned a lot of gold from his killing spree in Cliffport. That's certainly something Haley would never have done, even in pressing circumstances. She's good-natured and avoids harming the innocent.

The money isn't the biggest problem in ressurection. The really big one is finding a high-level cleric who can be bothered to cast it for you. It just struck me as funny that first Haley talks about getting True Ressurection all casual-like and then yells on Celia that finding a 17th level cleric is nigh-impossible.

[Hippoboy]

While it's nice to have time to have character development for characters it shouldn't slow down too much.

But in the last few comics the speed appears to raising again.

[Kaytara]

That's because Linear Guild doesn't take on challenges anywhere like those OoTS does. Order tries to save the world, while Linear Guild's activities to date were centered around Nale's petty revenge on his brother. And the bigger the challenge, the bigger the problem.

This is an interesting point in that Nale and Sabine have recently broadened their horizons after learning of the Gates. If they now have more challenging goals, by this logic they should have more trouble accomplishing them. Time will tell. But my point remains that the LG have been acting as a foil and nuisance for the heroes, and no matter what challenge, they've had it rather easy. So far, the three consistent members seem to be able to get away with literally anything, due to luck in no small part. Yes, there were plenty of times when they made their own luck, but they're still incredibly fortunate, at least in comparison to the heroes, to whom only bad things seem to happen.


The money isn't the biggest problem in ressurection. The really big one is finding a high-level cleric who can be bothered to cast it for you. It just struck me as funny that first Haley talks about getting True Ressurection all casual-like and then yells on Celia that finding a 17th level cleric is nigh-impossible.

I think the assumption here is also that Sabine, as an Evil Outsider, has resources beyond simple money. Hells, we saw what Qarr pulled. ;P If a tiny imp can call on an unlikely favour like that, who's to say Sabine doesn't have an ace up her sleeve in case Nale gets into trouble? After all, she is supposed to be something of an evil mentor figure to him. If the higher-ups have taken an interest in him, they'd probably be interested in raising the rookie if he got in over his head.

[Morty]

This is an interesting point in that Nale and Sabine have recently broadened their horizons after learning of the Gates. If they now have more challenging goals, by this logic they should have more trouble accomplishing them. Time will tell. But my point remains that the LG have been acting as a foil and nuisance for the heroes, and no matter what challenge, they've had it rather easy. So far, the three consistent members seem to be able to get away with literally anything, due to luck in no small part. Yes, there were plenty of times when they made their own luck, but they're still incredibly fortunate, at least in comparison to the heroes, to whom only bad things seem to happen.

Good points, but there's one thing: Haley doesn't know that. 4th wall might be busted repeatedly in OoTS, but Haley isn't a Dashing Swordwoman and therefore doesn't know that she's a hero who has it hard and LG are minor villains who are lucky. From her perspective, it's a matter of invention and resourcefulness.


I think the assumption here is also that Sabine, as an Evil Outsider, has resources beyond simple money. Hells, we saw what Qarr pulled. ;P If a tiny imp can call on an unlikely favour like that, who's to say Sabine doesn't have an ace up her sleeve in case Nale gets into trouble? After all, she is supposed to be something of an evil mentor figure to him. If the higher-ups have taken an interest in him, they'd probably be interested in raising the rookie if he got in over his head.

This might be true, but Haley was talking about Hilgya, Zz'Dtri or "someone else they don't know about" getting True Ressurection cast.

[Kish]

That part of the story is foreshadowing. It is the first time the team has been shown to be a competent unit without Roy's involvement. The team is all grown up and ready to face the future without Roy, although we didn't know it at the time.
Huh. The impression I'm getting now that Roy is dead is just the opposite, that the team is being shown (deliberately) to be unable to function effectively without Roy.

[Linkavitch]

Well think about it. If you read 1 page of a good novel every 3 days, you'd feel exactly the same way. You'd feel like nothing was going on in the story. Once this strip is done it'll seem like it was just the right amount of time to have Roy dead. Give it time, it'll be great in the end. :)

I agree with this guy. Also, watching one minute if a movie a day would feel about the same way.

[Kaytara]

To M0rt: Right, but why are we suddenly talking about Haley's perspective? The discussion was more about how much the LG have to struggle to achieve their goals, objectively.

It seems you're looking for a justification why HALEY would think the LG have a good chance of getting rezzed. I believe the answer to that is that she's still genre savvy enough to know that they're recurring villains, and as such do not simply go away. She practically says as much. 'If we kill them, they'll just come back later.' She then gives an example as to how that might happen. No one says those examples are exclusive.

Concerning your second point, she says that Nale is very good at finding loyal allies. (We, of course, know that it's not completely true, as with Leeky and Pompey, but again, we're looking at this from Haley's perspective.) I understood it to mean that Haley thinks villains always find a way back into the story because they always have contacts who intervene at opportune moments.

Also, I agree with Kish. I don't think that part of the story was foreshadowing Roy's death. Mainly, there is a difference between not having a person to direct you in battle and not having a person to direct you long-term.
In a short battle, if they're used to working together, removing the meat shield and commander from the equation shouldn't change that much. Haley should still know what to do with her arrows, Vaarsuvius still knows how to cast spells, Durkon knows when to heal, etc. We're talking about tactics here. As long as there's someone in the group with a decent INT score who's able to think creatively and come up with ideas about how to beat this monster or break through that door, removing the usual leader shouldn't change much.

The group's current problem is of a more strategic nature. They don't know where and how to direct their efforts and more importantly, they need Roy to keep them in check. Roy is important because he is an authority, and over a long period of time, the group is much less effective without him.

[One_Wolf]

I have no problem with the overall story progression, and I feel the comic is still funny and interesting. (In that order)

However, I want Roy back and Belkar better.

For no other reason than I like the dynamic between them.

-One Wolf

[Admiral_Kelly]

The group's current problem is of a more strategic nature. They don't know where and how to direct their efforts and more importantly, they need Roy to keep them in check. Roy is important because he is an authority, and over a long period of time, the group is much less effective without him.Wrong, wrong, wrong. The order's current problem is the living members are split into two groups. Which, in my opinion, is also the reason why the storyline has declined for me and for others - in addition to all the stumbling blocks Burlew keeps dropping so the current status quo remains the same.

Nonetheless, I theorize things will come to a head and the storyline will be more filling eventually.

[Kaytara]

Wrong, wrong, wrong. The order's current problem is the living members are split into two groups. Which, in my opinion, is also the reason why the storyline has declined for me and for others - in addition to all the stumbling blocks Burlew keeps dropping so the current status quo remains the same.

Nonetheless, I theorize things will come to a head and the storyline will be more filling eventually.

Um, wrong? You said the problem is that they're separated. I said the problem is that they can't organize themselves to get back together. Where's the big difference?

I'll second what someone said, though. The recent comics DO seem to be showing a change of pace. For one thing, we're doing a cutaway to one part of the group and diving directly into battle rather than the usual exposition. So... maybe.

[Trizap]

do not question a story in progress.

Also he have actually got a mention of a cleric of Loki, in Greysky, so I'm thinking the Roy will be raised soon when we get back to Haley, its been around 90 or so strips since the last arc ended, which is approx. the length of a standard OOTS arc, so methinks Roy will get resurrected soon, ok?

gods, the story intentionally spirals into its down point, and you all complain

[Prowl]

You people gotta realize that unless you got here when the first few comics were put out, for you personally the story has indeed slowed down. At first you had a whole archive to plow through, which was a whole lot of story in a condensed period of time (these strips are like Doritos, can't read just one). Once you catch up to the present, there's no way to re-create the pace you went through the story while you were catching up.

[silvadel]

Lord of the Rings also slowed when the members were split up.

It is just hard to pace at that point.

Personally though I think we are going to see some coalescing soon. I mean that cloister is either off or will be soon and once Haley and V reunite things should move faster.

[David Argall]

I measure a strip slowing down by the length of time I spend without checking for an update. By that standard, the strip seems to be doing fine.

[TreesOfDeath]

I kind of agree with the OP.
While I don't/didn't want Roy to return to life right away, and I'm happy for him to stay dead a bit longer, I feel too many strips were spent in the afterlife and too many on meaningless diversons (the orc tribe).
This may be some attempt at calm after the storm, but it feels more like Mood Whiplash.
And its been 100 strips since Roy's left the afterlife? Jeesh the plots hardly moved on at all >_> .
I remember reading Start OF Darkness during this time, and in comparison to these currently strips, it has a rocket ship pace. So yeah, the strip has definitely slowed down, and not in a good way.
I still like OTTS, but...

[The Hop Goblin]

Lord of the Rings also slowed when the members were split up.


Good example. Obviously Tolkien dropped the ball in his story telling ability. I'm sure if he had the wonderful, page-by-page imput of arm-chair critics that the story would have been so much better - it might have even changed literary world as we know it. Who knows, had Tolkien listened to a host of naysayers all wanting the characters to do what *they* wanted, it may have ended up making hundreds of millions of dollars in a film adaptation.

Wait a sec...

[Morty]

To M0rt: Right, but why are we suddenly talking about Haley's perspective? The discussion was more about how much the LG have to struggle to achieve their goals, objectively.

That's because the dicsussion diverged from my original point which was, Haley's speech about easiness of True Ressurection doesn't fit their current struggles, which is ironic.


It seems you're looking for a justification why HALEY would think the LG have a good chance of getting rezzed. I believe the answer to that is that she's still genre savvy enough to know that they're recurring villains, and as such do not simply go away. She practically says as much. 'If we kill them, they'll just come back later.' She then gives an example as to how that might happen. No one says those examples are exclusive.

I don't see a good reason to assume it's genre savviness rather than underestimating the difficulty of getting someone raised. It's open to multiple interpretations, I guess.

[Warren Dew]

But didn't we have complaints about the story slowing down from as long as there has been an actual story?

Perhaps that says something about the value of having an "actual story".

Now, I'm personally enjoying the current arc - what can I say, I think Qarr and his pal are cute - but I can understand the original poster's point of view. I felt the same way during the orc island strips, as did quite a few others.


I measure a strip slowing down by the length of time I spend without checking for an update. By that standard, the strip seems to be doing fine.

One objective measure is how fast the updates are coming. They seem to be faster when the arc is interesting enough to hold the author's attention. The current arc seems to be okay by that measure.

With regard to resurrections and the Linear Guild, I'd note that they lost half their original group and none of those have been resurrected.

I do agree with Kish that the order really seems unable to function without Roy. Indeed, I think that's the primary reason for leaving him dead so long - to show how long the group can go without making any real progress, and thus just how important he is to them.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I kind of agree with the OP.
While I don't/didn't want Roy to return to life right away, and I'm happy for him to stay dead a bit longer, I feel too many strips were spent in the afterlife and too many on meaningless diversons (the orc tribe).
In terms of story, I wouldn't say the orc tribe bit was meaningless yet.

So far, every time we get to look at the Hinjo's Fleet plotlines, it's been revolving almost entirely around Therkla's internal conflicts regarding her loyalty vs. her crush. This indicates that Therkla and her conflict will be important to the overall story somehow. And, of course, the orc island was a significant development in Therkla's conflict, which makes that arc important to the overall story.

Just because it doesn't get us directly closer to raising Roy, protecting Girard's Gate, or defeating Xykon or the Linear Guild, doesn't mean it's meaningless.

[King of Nowhere]

I do agree with Kish that the order really seems unable to function without Roy. Indeed, I think that's the primary reason for leaving him dead so long - to show how long the group can go without making any real progress, and thus just how important he is to them.
Actually, I believe that V, Elan and Durkon could work well under Haley lead (as they did in the end of the battle for Azure City). After Roy, Haley is the one with enough leadership capability, but the only one she can lead is Belkar, who can be ruled only by threatening him. Not only the group needs Roy, but the half group with the fleet needs Haley as well.

And back to topic, yes, there have been that kind of complaining since the start of the comic. What would have been the lord of the rings if there weren't side plots and b-list villains and all happened in 100 pages? As long as Rich keeps putting out good comics, he can drag as much as he wants.

[teratorn]

This indicates that Therkla and her conflict will be important to the overall story somehow. And, of course, the orc island was a significant development in Therkla's conflict, which makes that arc important to the overall story.


The problem is that Therkla is not an antagonist. It was relatively simple to get arcs revolving around the one that shall not be named (haha I made this a TOTSNBN thread). It won't be that easy with Therkla, unless she replaces one of the PCs.

It would be interesting for the people who think the strip is slowing down to say when they started reading the strip. I started around 200, and I don't feel a slowing down.

[NerfTW]

An antagonist does not have to be a "bad guy".

Therkla is an antagonist because she creates drama within the Order. She'll do what Elan says, but can anyone else trust her? Will she steal him away from Haley? Will she turn on everyone? What reprucussions does her changing sides have for the fleet now that Kubuto is outed?

She's just as much an antagonist as Miko, just in a different way.

[Jayabalard]

But didn't we have complaints about the story slowing down from as long as there has been an actual story?Not that I recall; certainly nothing like we've seen since the group got split up near the end of the Azure City battle.

[AKA_Bait]

Not that I recall; certainly nothing like we've seen since the group got split up near the end of the Azure City battle.

I don't know about that. The whole series of scenes in the Inn felt very dragging to quite a lot of readers I know. Some folks I game with even stopped following the strip at that point.

[King of Nowhere]

It would be interesting for the people who think the strip is slowing down to say when they started reading the strip. I started around 200, and I don't feel a slowing down.

That's an intersting point. When you read all the old comics in a row, the moment you stump with the "two or three a week" you always feel the strip is slowing and going to nowhere, and get used to it after a while.
If there really was an increase in those that think the comic is slowing after the party split (I don't know, I started reading three years ago but I started reading the forum much later), it could be because there are a lot of people who started reading OOTS recently.

[T-O-E]

Re-read the comics from the time when you started to wait for them.

[EyethatBinds]

I'll concur that the story isn't really slowing down, just that more new people are aware of the comic and mistake the first five hundred strips as being done the previous year. I've been reading since about #100 and haven't really felt the story to have lost pace. Meandered? Yes, but within acceptable parameters.

{Scrubbed}

[NerfTW]

{Scrubbed}


If you've been reading since strip #100, you'd be aware that he has health issues. When he was at cons, he couldn't sign books for very long. He's repeatedly stated that he is doing the best he can.

And the strips take way longer than four hours, even if he was in perfect health.

[Lissou]

If you've been reading since strip #100, you'd be aware that he has health issues. When he was at cons, he couldn't sign books for very long. He's repeatedly stated that he is doing the best he can.

And the strips take way longer than four hours, even if he was in perfect health.

Yay, even just making the patches can take that long (if you include the translation). He's got to come up with the lines, don't forget that, not just create the images.

[Charles Phipps]

Roy has been dead for a long time, everyone just seems to be endlessly wandering without accomplishing a single thing. The comic doesn't seem to be/feel like it's heading anywhere at all at this point. It obviously is, but there isn't any excitement or anticipation or well, I'm not sure. I've just noticed that as of late I'm not enjoying the strip as much as I once was.

I feel like there are too many viewpoints to be considering for a 3/week updated strip to have any sense of flow or pace.

Honestly, I don't read the comic for the adventures of Roy.

Personally, I'd like for the OOTS to go after Xykon without Roy. However, since that's not going to happen, I enjoy the development of the OOTS cast that's usually overshadowed by him. I think the story has slowed down a bit but I think that's really just the Giant's decision to continue having everyone seperate and not questing together without Roy.

They should just loot the body, incinerate him, and Roy's player's new character can show up.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Discussions of dramatic pacing are fine, but discussions of the timing of comic posting are generally not allowed. I'll leave this thread open, but please post with this in mind.

[multilis]

You guys have it all wrong. It isn't Roy being dead or Belkar being not dead yet or soon to be dead or team good being divided, or team evil on sidelines...

Its Miko. Nuf said.

[mofabulous]

I don't have a problem with the pace of comics. We get regular updates. It's not how fast the comic is being updated thats frustrating.

Its the FOCUS of the comic ( roy ) is dead and the comic just SEEMS lost right now. We have a million subplots going to keep the team going, but without Roy it all just seems pointless.

He's really that important to the comic.


I know that Rich has his plans for the comic, but the roy fans out there are just hoping his death gets resolved soon. Its amazing how much rich ahs made us all care about his characters :smalltongue:

[Morgan Wick]

We definitely seem to be approaching something big happening. Elan has settled things with Therkla, and more importantly, Haley and Celia are with friends in Greysky. They may be about to raise Roy or at least make contact between halves of the OOTS. 600 is fast approaching. (And I can't help but think V's "ultimate cosmic power" may be coming soon...)

[Godric]

Don't get me wrong, I loved it when Haley was in the city. It's just... well, for a long time the following have been true:

1) Durkon, Elan and V have been at sea
2) V has been trying to scry Haley and has been failing.
3) For awhile (not as long as the above two) Haley has been trying to res Roy.
4) We haven't had any good redcloak action (love him)
5) We haven't had any good contact with the villains I (and Im sure a lot of people) care about - either the linear guild or redcloak/xykon. I know people like qarr and the weirdo sapphire noble guy, but I honestly don't care. No depth at all, not near redcloak/mysterymonster/xykon. (Note: I like Therkla now)

I'd like to see either V get some damn sleep (100~ strips feels like a long time) or find Haley already, the other chunk of the party needs to hit land in a non-sucky island way or Roy needs to get ressed - and, mind you, I can accept that not happening for awhile - or we get some good MAIN plot advancement.

That's all. I'm not saying the strip is balls now, I'm just saying I don't enjoy it as much as I did. Like when Haley was leading the resistance, for example. When V sent his birdies and they just failed because B/H killed them I was annoyed. Hopes were dashed, joke not funny.

[Paragon Badger]

Having reread the whole strip from first page to latest in the last few days, I can say that in comparison to everything else that has happened, it has not slowed down. It's your imagination. :smalltongue:

There are more main plot arcs. Before, we just had the Order, Team Evil, and the Linear Guild. The last two had only an on-off precense on camera.

Now we have Haley, Hinjo, Roy's Ghost, and Team Evil. All save for Team Evil have pretty equal camera-time.

In fact, I hypothisize a cut to O-Chuul before the Big Red Angry Demon is dispatched. :smallsmile:

Seriously, it's your imagination. After rereading the whole strip at once, I can say that this last arc is a breeze compared to say, the end of Dorukan's Dungeon to Azure City Trial.

[Schaffer1979]

I'm just happy, despite his ailing health, that he chooses to entertain others free of charge and I shall refrain from stating that I think rather than complain that some entities should quit yakking and if they think can do better get out there and do it.

Rich's doing a fine job, he's been entertaining us for years and years, and I'm perfectly happy to embrace his art and his story at his own pace. Have a little respect for the man and quit gnashing on his hard work.

Oops. I didn't refrain. Oh well.

That being said, hello all. I enjoy reading the forums for the most part but my irritation got the better of me. Greetings.

[MyrddinDerwydd]

I agree with this guy. Also, watching one minute if a movie a day would feel about the same way.

It's so true. When I first found OOTS, I got to read a few hundred strips all at once :-) Just be patient all you young grasshoppers. :smalltongue: Or, as someone else advised, read every few weeks :smallcool::smallbiggrin:

[Jade_Tarem]

Try to remember that this is, perhaps not at its core (anymore), but still very importantly: a DnD webcomic. Now total the factors in place:

- A massive battle took place, involving tens of thousands of combatants. In a DnD game, this is somewhat difficult to pull off at a fast enough pace to keep it interesting, let alone finish in a single session of whatever. Honestly, it's a testament to how fast-paced the comic really is, and the quality of the writing, that the comic didn't grind to a total halt and die during the Battle of Azure City.

- The OOTS's primary opponent is an EPIC LEVEL SORCERER. I don't know how many or who among you play DnD, but pure ignorance, of both the locations of the the two gates and his own potential, is the only thing keeping Xykon in check. That no headway has been made toward his defeat is not surprising in the slightest. The only way a level 13 party accomplishes anything against that is under his nose. That said, the epic level spell currently in play is a major obstacle to be overcome, and the order is still struggling with it.

- A good DM tries to throw in sidequests and realistic NPCs from time to time, and that includes trips out into the woods in search of phat lootz, wacky hijinks at the inn, and total bastards like Kubota trying to get in your way from time to time.

- A good party is not made of Leader + others. The necessities of the story meant that Roy had quite a bit of the spotlight for a long time, and now he's gone and dinkin' around in the afterlife so that the other PCs can shine. If Roy was your favorite character, then tough. Miko was a bunch of other people's favorite character (not mine, though), and no one's even trying to rez her.

- An examination of "all those meaningless hurdles that Rich is tossing in just to maintain the status quo" reveals that it's mostly some very realistic reactions as opportunistic characters take potshots at a weakened OOTS. Granted, Celia's sudden and apparently permanent loss of about 60 IQ points and an Imp pulling some kind of advanced Pit Fiend/Devil Lord out of his *** are stretching the point - but those are mostly played for laughs, because the comic is still trying to be funny and not capitulate to Cerebus Syndrome.

Honestly, I think the comic would feel much more contrived and, well, stupid if Roy was back after some token challenges and a little diamond dust, and if all the NPC's just jumped out of the way so that things would be more convenient for the PCs.

[Schaffer1979]

- An examination of "all those meaningless hurdles that Rich is tossing in just to maintain the status quo" reveals that it's mostly some very realistic reactions as opportunistic characters take potshots at a weakened OOTS. Granted, Celia's sudden and apparently permanent loss of about 60 IQ points and an Imp pulling some kind of advanced Pit Fiend/Devil Lord out of his *** are stretching the point - but those are mostly played for laughs, because the comic is still trying to be funny and not capitulate to Cerebus Syndrome.


I concur with all of your points except the above. I think Celia is just evidencing naivete in understanding a race different than her own. She's young, just got out of college and worked in an abandoned dungeon with no exposure to another race or culture. She's not dumbed down, just inexperienced and emotionally involved (both states that result in stupid decisions).

As for the imp pulling the pit fiend out of its pocket, perhaps the percentile dice just happened to come up 100% as it has a probability to bring about uber results; or depending on demon vs. devil, one could argue that a contract exists due to the loss of the card game and that if the summoned creature is a devil, it has to keep its pact as devils are lawful evil. It's just game mechanics really.

[teratorn]

Just be patient all you young grasshoppers.

Wow, I used to watch that, something like 30 years ago...

[funkyhomosapien]

It's getting pretty obvious that Rich doesn't really know what direction he's trying to go right now and current turn of events in the story are him biding time.

[teratorn]

It's getting pretty obvious that Rich doesn't really know what direction he's trying to go right now and current turn of events in the story are him biding time.

No, it's not obvious at all.

[Paragon Badger]

It's getting pretty obvious that Rich doesn't really know what direction he's trying to go right now and current turn of events in the story are him biding time.

Are you kidding?

If that was the case, the following would have never occured;


The exposition on Vaarsuvius' zeal. A chekhov's gun waiting to fire.
Belkar activating the MoJ. A chekhov's gun that is still firing... messily.
Roy gaining insight on where the party is relative to one another
Therkla's character exposition and her near face heel turn.
Exposition on Roy's bloodoath, his brother, and his role as a character (the alignment dispute with the deva) relative to the party.
Exposition on redcloak's plans for world domination under hobgoblin rule.
Ect. Ect. Ect.


If Rich was buying time, we would have a fetch quest to sit through.

[NerfTW]

It's getting pretty obvious that Rich doesn't really know what direction he's trying to go right now and current turn of events in the story are him biding time.

Unlike terrible writers, Rich planned the plot out ahead of time, like most professional writers would.

[Wreckingrocc]

Roy has been dead for a long time, everyone just seems to be endlessly wandering without accomplishing a single thing. The comic doesn't seem to be/feel like it's heading anywhere at all at this point. It obviously is, but there isn't any excitement or anticipation or well, I'm not sure. I've just noticed that as of late I'm not enjoying the strip as much as I once was.

I feel like there are too many viewpoints to be considering for a 3/week updated strip to have any sense of flow or pace.
...You just noticed? I've felt that ever since the early 500s. They're not funny anymore. AT ALL. They move slow, and nothing happens. Now it's just a bunch of NPCs running around doing things. The PCs haven't done squat. OOTS has been degrading for a long time; I'm surprised you haven't found all the threads about it.

I can't wait until Belkar dies :)

He obviously knows where he's going, he's just doing it slow and humorlessly.

[Rayzin]

TAKE THAT BACK!!!
Besides the story seems to hobble along nicely, at least somethings happening now.

[Nargrakhan]

Yea... I feel the "500 series" has been a major let down for me. The momentum of fun just isn't there anymore. Don't get me wrong: I love OotS and continue reading it, but I'm doing so in anticipation for when things get better and out of the rut.

There used to be a time when I visited GitP for OotS... but now I find myself enjoying Erf more. The stick figures have just... well... done nothing of major significance for me.

Only an opinion of course - mine is just as useless as everyone else's - but I just wanted to get it off my chest. When the hardback for the "500 series" is released, I don't think I'll be in line... that's how disappointed I've been with it.

[The Extinguisher]

Wait then. If you don't like the updates, stop reading them. Wait a while, sit back and read it all at once.

It's not a gag a day comic. It's meant to be read in big chunks. I've read through the whole Battle for Azure City, which believe me, recieved a lot more complaints than this has, and the pacing has been fine.

It would be a lame story, if the party got back together and Roy was raised easily. It needs to take time and be difficult. Roy has only been dead for about 100 strips. It's not that long.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Its the FOCUS of the comic ( roy )…
Really? I was under the impression this was more of an ensemble piece. That the focus was on the Order, not just one of them.

[Shatteredtower]

Wait then. If you don't like the updates, stop reading them. Wait a while, sit back and read it all at once.Read in chunks, it still reads as stalling for time, not as setting things up.


I've read through the whole Battle for Azure City, which believe me, recieved a lot more complaints than this has, and the pacing has been fine.The Battle of Azure City, for all of its faults, moved things forward. Since then, there's been more running in circles than progress.


It would be a lame story, if the party got back together and Roy was raised easily.It's a lame story that prevents something easily within the party's capability from happening time and time again for one cooked up contrivance after another. After a certain point, the joke has been beaten well past the point of reanimating it.


Roy has only been dead for about 100 strips. It's not that long.One hundred forty-two strips (at the time of this post) amounts to nearly a quarter of the series to date. The party's progress toward overcoming a world-threatening plot has been stalled for most of that time as well. Long -- "that long", even -- is exactly what it is.

Look, if there were signs of progress toward the big goals while characters were exploring new facets of their histories and political situation, that would be one thing. What we've seen instead is one obstacle after another placed in the path, and it's worn well past thin by now.

Xykon's spell prevents scrying? Fine. Celia shows up to address this problem? Great -- except that the party never got any closer to a solution, and is now actually further away. One step forward, two steps back is one thing, but the first part of the equation has been missed more often than not. At least Haley and Celia looked in the right direction a few times, but they never actually got to take the step -- and we still got the setbacks.

[Jade_Tarem]

Yes, because the story would be so much more realistic if every action the Order took brought them closer to the conclusion of the plot. Really. In a DnD game, that's called Railroading - and in real life, it's called bad writing. Sometimes a series of unfortunate events occurs. Let's look at a possible future for the comic:

1. In the next comic, V's plan for defeating the Pit Fiend thing succeeds. Qarr is thwarted with whatever he's doing in the comic after that, and magical interrogation techniques allow for Therkla to betray Kubota, who is promptly arrested and thrown out of power. House Kato inherits his belongings, for good measure. That takes place over the next two comics. Then V gets some rest.

2. In the fifth comic from now, we shoot back over to Greysky, the morning after. Crystal figures out where Haley is, but in the sixth comic from current Celia, Haley, and Pete are able to driver her off, or kill her. Two comics pass as the cleric of Loki arrives, and it is, of course, Hilgya, because we're trying to wrap up plotlines here. She's happy enough to greet the order, but is really looking for Durkon, and in the interests of finding him is willing to Rez Roy. She also happens to have some diamond dust on her - exactly 10,000 gp worth. The ninth comic after that, Haley, Celia, Pete, and Belkar + Mr. Scruffy have to hold off the entire Graysky City Thief's guild + Heironymous Grubwiggler's golems as Hilgya casts raise dead. This fight lasts for one or two comics. Then, the eleventh comic after that, The leader of the guild, + Grubwiggler, Giro, the arcane trickster, and Crystal if they didn't kill her before, all show up, but Hilgya finishes her spell, Roy comes back to life, gets his gear, and the protagonists beat 'em all back. Also, Roy will have gained a level, instead of losing one like you're supposed to when you get raised, because we wouldn't want to slow down the plot, and the Order becoming more powerful could only speed things up, after all. He'll also have mastered the whatchmacallit Greenhilt maneuver that lets Horace one-shot things, and use it on the leader of the theif guild as Haley finishes off Crystal and Celia nukes Grubwiggler.

They all immediately set out for either a means to contact the others, or for the other crew themselves. They stop on the way out of town to free Ian Starshine from prison, kill Darth Tyrannus or whatever his name was, who, of course, is Nale's dad. They also find the Linear Guild there, and wipe them out on the way out of town, too, and soul-bind their souls into a bunch of black gemstones (actual DnD spell) so that they can't be raised, moral objections from before notwithstanding. This takes one comic.

3. Two comics later, the order and the azure city forces are reunited and enroute to Girard's gate. Meanwhile, Redcloak has finally figured out where it is, and so Team Evil is heading there too! O Chul stages a massive coup of Azure city in their absence and lives happily ever after (this takes one comic, too).

There, now the main plot is back on track, after about 15 or so pages, and we have successfully eliminated any and all interesting NPCs that might get in its way again. If this is your idea of a good story, then you need to go back to playing Halo, which wrapped up its plot in similar fashion.

[T-O-E]

I don't know about any of you guys but i'm reading the Order Of The Stick for the journey, not the destination.

[Godric]

...the story you just created was awesome! Roy coming back to life just in time to save the day? V finally succeeds at something and gets some rest? Therkla sides with good (until the inevitable conflict with Haley)? Haley's main quest resolved? Giant battles? More O Chul? More redcloak?

I saw the sarcasm/meant-to-not-be-good in the post, but a lot of that was quality stuff. A good bout of happenings to get the main quest back on track is long overdue (or at least due) by now.

[NerfTW]

Yes, because the story would be so much more realistic if every action the Order took brought them closer to the conclusion of the plot. Really. In a DnD game, that's called Railroading - and in real life, it's called bad writing.

Which, as mentioned in Paladin Blues, is the reason for Miko just tying them up and dragging them to Azure City. Because there was no other way for them to want to go there, and they were pretty much about to split up anyways. Roy had to trick them into helping him get the starmetal for his sword.

But then again, it was planned ahead of time. The only change was that he did a Linear Guild interlude to avoid having Durkon become unlikable for following Miko of his own free will.

[Shatteredtower]

Yes, because the story would be so much more realistic if every action the Order took brought them closer to the conclusion of the plot.Straw man. The issue isn't with the fact that there are diversions. The issue is with the fact that there are only diversions. Well, that, and a lot of empty gestures toward getting back on track.


I don't know about any of you guys but i'm reading the Order Of The Stick for the journey, not the destination.When the journey is starting to look like the pacing of a neurotic polar bear, there are going to be complaints.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

I AM NOT CRITICIZING THE GIANT HERE.

{Scrubbed}

I know The Giant has health problems and needs more time to get out the strips. That's fine. He shouldn't be rushed. All we can do is adjust.

Plus, people get annoyed when a strip goes from a cliffhanger to another plot. Especially when it's one that the reader isn't interested in. But that's a common storytelling technique. We can't blame the Giant for that.

It just comes down to whether or not we like the current arc. If we don't like the arc, or if it just ended on a cliffhanger, it seems like it has slowed down.

We'll get back to the others soon. :smallsmile:

[Lissou]

I concur with all of your points except the above. I think Celia is just evidencing naivete in understanding a race different than her own. She's young, just got out of college and worked in an abandoned dungeon with no exposure to another race or culture. She's not dumbed down, just inexperienced and emotionally involved (both states that result in stupid decisions).

As for the imp pulling the pit fiend out of its pocket, perhaps the percentile dice just happened to come up 100% as it has a probability to bring about uber results; or depending on demon vs. devil, one could argue that a contract exists due to the loss of the card game and that if the summoned creature is a devil, it has to keep its pact as devils are lawful evil. It's just game mechanics really.

Yeah. I mean, I'm French and when I went to Canada, I would make mystake about the stupidest things. Now we live in France and my husband, who's Canadian, keeps surprising me by not knowing something or doing something wrong while I'd think it was obvious.
And that's just a change of country, I mean, imagine a plane change. I think it was exagerated for the humour of it, but it's mostly more reaslistic than Celia knowing everything she'd normally have no way of knowing.

[Paragon Badger]

Have you ever seen a Seinfeld episode?

That's what happening here.

Just because you can't SEE the resolution immediatly becoming apparant, doesn't mean that the subplots aren't working towards it.

Seriously, the belt of gender changing, ring of jumping, potions of heroism, ect. were introduced way before they were ever used. You're underestimating the author a great deal here- and are simply wrong. :smalltongue:

Do you guys seriously need the ending immediatly revealed to you?
Do you hate mystery novels because the crime isn't solved until the end?
Do you go to the last page of a book, read it, and then count yourself as having completed it?

If you do, you fail at reading. :smallannoyed:

Not all gratification is immediate, so quit your whining- the lot of yeh. :smallmad:

[Emanick]

Really? I was under the impression this was more of an ensemble piece. That the focus was on the Order, not just one of them.

"...basically the whole story was/is Roy's story."
I quote NCftPB's commentary. Round 3, if you want to check it.

[NerfTW]

"...basically the whole story was/is Roy's story."
I quote NCftPB's commentary. Round 3, if you want to check it.

The focus of the story may be Roy, but that doesn't mean the other characters aren't important. Especially since right now both groups are working towards either raising Roy or finding Haley (and by extension, Roy's corpse)

The focus doesn't have to be the main character. The focus of Lord of the Rings was the One Ring, but that doesn't mean they had to bring up it's existence every page.

Roy is driving the plot. He put the team together. He got them attacked by Miko. (by tricking them into helping him find the starmetal. Otherwise, they would have split up) He convinced them to continue to find information on the gates. He was the one who sent them to Cliffport to fight Nale and cause Elan's progression as a character. He is now the one driving the order to find eachother.

You can say you prefer the comic without Roy, but to somehow claim that Haley's resistance group, summoning Celia, traveling to Greysky, and finding a lead on a cleric aren't focused on Roy is ridiculous. If it wasn't, she would have just ran off and left them all to rot.

[Shatteredtower]

Have you ever seen a Seinfeld episode?Once. It was okay, but didn't seem worth following.


Just because you can't SEE the resolution immediatly becoming apparant, doesn't mean that the subplots aren't working towards it.Umm... no.

Eating the birds and killing the Oracle and getting Roy's corpse turned into a golem are just some of the ways the strip has been actively working against resolution.

It all smacks of trying too hard to justify putting off the big scene.


Seriously, the belt of gender changing, ring of jumping, potions of heroism, ect. were introduced way before they were ever used.If any of the items you just mentioned went the way of Trigak (dun dun DUN!) and never appeared again, the story would have carried on regardless. There would be consequences, sure, but they would not be of the sort that brought matters to a standstill.

Token freedom fighting notwithstanding, we've seen the party do nothing to stop Xykon's quest since the day Roy died. That's absurd.


Do you guys seriously need the ending immediatly revealed to you?Wrong question. Again.


Do you hate mystery novels because the crime isn't solved until the end?If it reads more like a game of Snakes & Ladders, with no ladders, sure. An author is only allowed so many obstructive contrivances before the story starts to look padded for length.


Do you go to the last page of a book, read it, and then count yourself as having completed it?No, but it's where I've started most of the lengthier books I have finished. It's proven pretty effective incentive.


Not all gratification is immediate, so quit your whining- the lot of yeh. :smallmad:Uh... you have it backward.

I enjoy the Giant's writing, but he's got an annoying plotting problem going on this time. I'm not forcing anyone to read that observations made. The whining about doing so was amusing for awhile, but hypocrisy loses its flavour rather quickly. :smallwink:

[David Argall]

He obviously knows where he's going, he's just doing it slow and humorlessly.
Slow maybe, [and since the strip ends with the destination, slow is better] but humorlessly, not at all. I have cracked up at several of the recent strips.



The only change was that he did a Linear Guild interlude to avoid having Durkon become unlikable for following Miko of his own free will.
Now he changed the inn scene before this, but there is no evidence he made a change by adding the LG interlude. In particular, any danger to Durkon was only a secondary consideration. The basic point was that there isn't much to do with a chained up party. And when we already have people yelling about slowing down the plot, there is even less. So this was a fine time for a cutaway. And since he likes to keep us updated about the evil plans, the cutaway was likely planned long before it happened.

[David Argall]

Eating the birds and killing the Oracle and getting Roy's corpse turned into a golem are just some of the ways the strip has been actively working against resolution.
You say that like it was a bad thing.
The bird eating was great stuff. While killing the Oracle may not have been much of itself, it quickly produced fine strips.


It all smacks of trying too hard to justify putting off the big scene.
Apparently it isn't hard at all. And while I didn't and don't approve of the idea of the split party and dead Roy, the journey has been a lot of fun anyway.


If any of the items you just mentioned went the way of Trigak (dun dun DUN!) and never appeared again, the story would have carried on regardless.

You are missing the point of the argument. Our writer has obviously planned things far into the future, and sometimes in considerable detail. Anyone might order all the potions he could carry if he got them at a bargain rate, but 27 potions of heroism and no other types? Our writer was looking nearly 300 strips ahead.
If he was looking ahead there, and in the other cases mentioned, he can be assumed to be looking ahead here too, and thus the various "meaningless" activities we see at the moment will have a meaning in the future plot.
Now I am not sure the argument is particularly valid. A whole lot of meaningless activities have remained meaningless. But the idea is that we are making progress even when we don't seem to be.

[Godric]

Let us remember these two important facts

1) We all like OoTS.

2) We aren't talking about immediate gratification. We're talking about over one hundred and forty strips and constant frustrating turns of events.

Whenever I read the comic I just feel hopeless now. When something is resolved at last I'll either a) be happy or b) have a "****ing FINALLY" reaction, and it's getting closer to the latter. I don't mind the odd schedule, I'm quite happy and thankful that we're even getting three strips a week. I just wish...that something positive would happen. Something that we could feel good about. Haley getting 50,000gp doesn't fall into that category. If we saw O-Chul escape, I'd cheer. My favourite strip is the one where his interrogation inspires the prisoners.

[Kaytara]

Let us remember these two important facts

1) We all like OoTS.

2) We aren't talking about immediate gratification. We're talking about over one hundred and forty strips and constant frustrating turns of events.

Whenever I read the comic I just feel hopeless now. When something is resolved at last I'll either a) be happy or b) have a "****ing FINALLY" reaction, and it's getting closer to the latter. I don't mind the odd schedule, I'm quite happy and thankful that we're even getting three strips a week. I just wish...that something positive would happen. Something that we could feel good about. Haley getting 50,000gp doesn't fall into that category. If we saw O-Chul escape, I'd cheer. My favourite strip is the one where his interrogation inspires the prisoners.

My impression is that the down-ness of the strips since Roy's death is largely the point here. The Order has suffered a massive defeat at Azure City, lost the battle, lost the gate, lost their leader, and lost contact with each other, their DPSer is helpless, and their nuker is working himself into undeath. Haley has assassins breathing down her neck and Durkon's team has to deal with a scheming noble and now a giant fiend menace.
Personally, I'm betting on another two or three strips of things getting even worse (something with V), and then, they can only get better. Maybe the point of this story arc is that the Order CAN get itself out of an impossibly tight spot. :)

[King of Nowhere]

Well, let's make another comparison with the lord of the rings, and what those who are complaining in this thread would have said on it...
In the first book, the party is going to climb the mountains to keep the travel.
But snow blocks them, so they must come back and pass through the dwarven citadel.
Here they find orcs. And a ballrog.
Crap! The plot is slowing down!
Then Gandalf "dies".
Nothing good is happening to the heroes! All more obstacles to them!
They come out of the mountain, and come to the elves. They stay there for weeks, or even months.
The plot is slowing again!
They start traveling by river, but they are attacked.
Boromir dies.
Frodo and Sam are separated from the party.
I just feel hopeless now!
Aragorn and the others follow the orcs, but they found that they are already being killed, the hobbits maybe died in the battle.
They find the hobbits, but they came to this king Theoden, who is harmed by an evil counselor.
Who cares about these minor NPC! They're not important! Basically, the only thing important is the ring, and we won't see it for some other hundreds pages.
Rohan is attacked, everybody flees at Helm's deep. The battle seems lost.
We aren't talking about immediate gratification. We're talking about 300+ pages and constant frustrating turns of events. That's even worse than oots!


The lord of the rings rewritten for those who likes a plot quick and linear:
The ring must be destroied. Frodo must carry the ring to Mordor to destroy it. Frodo starts. Frodo reach the first village. Frodo reach the palace of elves. Frodo keep going on, and he finally enters in mordor. There, he arrives at mount Doom, where he throw the ring in the fire, destroying it. Everybody lives happily ever after. The end.

I don't think anyone would prefer THAT.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

One hundred forty strips… Since Roy died. Which was still in the Act covered by War and XPs. We haven't really had a chance to really focus on actually getting Roy raised until this Act. (Recover the body, sure. Get him raised, no.)

Since this particular Act began, it's only been about a hundred strips. The Acts covered by No Cure for the Paladin Blues and War and XPs are about 180 strips each. Now, it seems to me that this Act is all about developing the characters through this experience of being shattered. I have no reason to expect these conflicts to be resolved before the end of the Act. So I just want to wait and see what happens with the next 80 strips before I second guess what each element has to do with the Act yet.

[Emperor Demonking]

Well, let's make another comparison with the lord of the rings, and what those who are complaining in this thread would have said on it...
In the first book, the party is going to climb the mountains to keep the travel.
But snow blocks them, so they must come back and pass through the dwarven citadel.
Here they find orcs. And a ballrog.
Crap! The plot is slowing down!
Then Gandalf "dies".
Nothing good is happening to the heroes! All more obstacles to them!
They come out of the mountain, and come to the elves. They stay there for weeks, or even months.
The plot is slowing again!
They start traveling by river, but they are attacked.
Boromir dies.
Frodo and Sam are separated from the party.
I just feel hopeless now!
Aragorn and the others follow the orcs, but they found that they are already being killed, the hobbits maybe died in the battle.
They find the hobbits, but they came to this king Theoden, who is harmed by an evil counselor.
Who cares about these minor NPC! They're not important! Basically, the only thing important is the ring, and we won't see it for some other hundreds pages.
Rohan is attacked, everybody flees at Helm's deep. The battle seems lost.
We aren't talking about immediate gratification. We're talking about 300+ pages and constant frustrating turns of events. That's even worse than oots!


The lord of the rings rewritten for those who likes a plot quick and linear:
The ring must be destroied. Frodo must carry the ring to Mordor to destroy it. Frodo starts. Frodo reach the first village. Frodo reach the palace of elves. Frodo keep going on, and he finally enters in mordor. There, he arrives at mount Doom, where he throw the ring in the fire, destroying it. Everybody lives happily ever after. The end.

I don't think anyone would prefer THAT.


Frodo threw the ring in mount doom?

[Gamerlord]

{Scrubbed}

[Occasional Sage]

Frodo threw the ring in mount doom?

No, and I think that's his point; that's what would have happened in a streamlined LotR. You know, without all of the extraneous things that slowed it down.

[T-O-E]

Well, let's make another comparison with the lord of the rings, and what those who are complaining in this thread would have said on it...
In the first book, the party is going to climb the mountains to keep the travel.
But snow blocks them, so they must come back and pass through the dwarven citadel.
Here they find orcs. And a ballrog.
Crap! The plot is slowing down!
Then Gandalf "dies".
Nothing good is happening to the heroes! All more obstacles to them!
They come out of the mountain, and come to the elves. They stay there for weeks, or even months.
The plot is slowing again!
They start traveling by river, but they are attacked.
Boromir dies.
Frodo and Sam are separated from the party.
I just feel hopeless now!
Aragorn and the others follow the orcs, but they found that they are already being killed, the hobbits maybe died in the battle.
They find the hobbits, but they came to this king Theoden, who is harmed by an evil counselor.
Who cares about these minor NPC! They're not important! Basically, the only thing important is the ring, and we won't see it for some other hundreds pages.
Rohan is attacked, everybody flees at Helm's deep. The battle seems lost.
We aren't talking about immediate gratification. We're talking about 300+ pages and constant frustrating turns of events. That's even worse than oots!


The lord of the rings rewritten for those who likes a plot quick and linear:
The ring must be destroied. Frodo must carry the ring to Mordor to destroy it. Frodo starts. Frodo reach the first village. Frodo reach the palace of elves. Frodo keep going on, and he finally enters in mordor. There, he arrives at mount Doom, where he throw the ring in the fire, destroying it. Everybody lives happily ever after. The end.

I don't think anyone would prefer THAT.

Anyone else reminded of this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU

[Nargrakhan]

Well, let's make another comparison with the lord of the rings, and what those who are complaining in this thread would have said on it...

I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to disagree on the concept of your argument. Why? Because if you do a short search on criticism against LotR, slow pacing and "long chapters of pointless moments" are inevitably mentioned. That doesn't mean you have to agree with it: criticism is opinionated. However that doesn't mean the criticism is wrong or lacking to "see the genius" in something. That too is criticism (often used a ploy to "poison the well").

Just because I find a long segment of OotS drawing into a rut, does not mean "I lack the intelligence or foresight to see the greater picture." I get enough of that rhetoric from watching Fox News and CNN. I could easily claim supporters are blinded by their overwhelming love to see the faults where they are – but I don't and I won't. At least give us some credit: We're not lesser fans or lesser minds, for finding want in something. That kind of thinking is just wrong.

Don't stoop to the level of politicians. :smallwink:

[Jayabalard]

I don't know about any of you guys but i'm reading the Order Of The Stick for the journey, not the destination.as am I, but I'm not finding my self all that entertained by the journey at the moment.


Well, let's make another comparison with the lord of the ringsThat's not a good story to use as comparison, since it's not uncommon to see criticisms of Tolkein's pacing and side stories.

[Occasional Sage]

Anyone else reminded of this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU

Other than the birds, that's pretty much exactly how it ended.

[Jade_Tarem]

Straw man. The issue isn't with the fact that there are diversions. The issue is with the fact that there are only diversions. Well, that, and a lot of empty gestures toward getting back on track.

It *could* be a straw man, except that you don't have a clear position for me to straw man in the first place. You have these complaints about the pacing of the story, but no one knows exactly what it is you actually want. What should happen next? Should all of the subplots and obstacles be resolved? Some of them? Should it happen now or twelve strips from now? Should they be resolved permanently or can one or two bad guys survive? Was my revised version of the future plot actually appealing to you? Inquiring minds want to know.

Also, should there just be the one plot or are subplots and secondary plotlines ok? Aristotle's Dramatics works well for Oedipus Rex, but not OOTS. Unity of Time, Place, and Action makes for a boring and very short webcomic.

[Warren Dew]

As an experiment, I just went through the most recent 100 strips and the oldest 100 strips. There wasn't any real difference in how long it had been since I'd seen them, since I recently got and read Dungeon Crawlin' Fools. I skimmed them rather than reading every panel in detail to avoid taking all night.

With the most recent 100, there was about one joke each strip. Every dozen strips there was a joke that still drew a smile, even though I already knew them all. One strip - 534 - I just had to go back and reread in full.

With the earliest 100, there was also about one joke each strip, contrary to my memory of there being more. The jokes were better, though; every half dozen strips there was one that had me grinning widely, even though I knew them all, and there were a lot of panels that had me smiling even though there weren't jokes. It seems like th characters had a lot more goofy, funny expressions back then. Perhaps every dozen strips there was one that I just had to go back and reread in full.

I was surprised to see that there weren't a lot more arcs in the first hundred strips. However, a lot less time was spent on exposition - instead of ten strips of Roy and his dad arguing interminably, you'd get just as much out of only one strip. When there was an arguably slow arc, such as Durkon going off on his own with Hilgya, you'd get a cut away every couple of strips, rather than every dozen - and the tie ins would be much more hilarious.

I guess my conclusion is that the comic has slowed, not so much because the plot is slower, but because the presentation is more staid and less sparkling. That might be an inevitable process of an author running out of really good jokes, or it might be that the web comic is now a side effect of producing the books rather than vice versa, but there is a difference.

[ericgrau]

I'm enjoying the comic, and every time there's a thread for a new strip you can see that most others are as well.

Summary of Current Plotlines, plus predictions:

Haley & Belkar: Have Roy, traveling to get him rezzed, then trying to meet up with group. Somehow Haley needs to destroy Roy's golem and get the remains to the newly found cleric. She's suggested the possibility of hiring mercs. It's possible she may find a piece of Roy to shortcut the process, but more likely that she'll have to grab Roy now or later. She may either grab Roy and get him rezzed or come back later with mercs or more likely the OotS. She already has the money, which hints at a shorter resolution, since nobody seems to keep anything for too long in OotS. That may take a few strips, or else they'll have to wait until they re-unite. If they do have to wait for the reunion, not having Roy along means there isn't much left for them to do except travel and (soon) deal with Belkar's illness, so that can only add a few more strips at most. I'd say that leaves around 10 strips tops to resolve this tangent.

Durkon, Elan and V: Trying to find their party and beat Kabuto. Before they had nothing more than a single dead lead on Kabuto, but the pally's are gathering more and more information on the subject. While success may not be immediate, at the very least some kind of confrontation seems immenant. Most likely the imp went back to the ship to get Hinjo killed, since the entire party is away and he said he had to do something b/c of such. And when the party does get back they'll be another confrontation with Kabuto. Again, 10 strips tops.

Then we have a problem-free ship fleet or the horrible reign of Kabuto; a peaceful medium cannot last much longer. Haley reaches a major city with or without Roy. It should take about 3-4 strips for Haley to do something or else sit there bored and waiting while Durkon & co. act as rebels under the reign of Kabuto (unlikely). So 3-4 strips til meetup, with room for maybe one extra 5-strip delaying tangent.

Nah, things are wrapping up too fast. Too many options that might delay the combat further are being trimmed away, leaving some kind of resolution (good or bad) as the only possibility that can soon remain. That's what all these "delays" are, exploring everything that can possibly go wrong until there's nothing possible left. Something has to happen, and soon; there just aren't any other "slow" options left for the story except what I wrote above. Not coincidentally, I'm sure, it seems like that'll be around strip 600. I wasn't part of the "rez/meet at 600" crowd before, but now it seems way too obvious that something conclusive has to happen at strip 600.

In short, the prize is behind one of the 10 doors, and Rich seems to be "teasing" us (or developing every little interesting nook and cranny of the story possible, I think) by opening every single door except that one. Now there are only 3 doors left. I'm sure the other 2 bad doors will open next, but then only one thing can happen.

[Paragon Badger]

Eating the birds and killing the Oracle and getting Roy's corpse turned into a golem are just some of the ways the strip has been actively working against resolution.

It all smacks of trying too hard to justify putting off the big scene.

Birds = Vaarsuvius character development, He woulden't be so stressed out if it worked.

Oracle = Activation of Belkar's MoJ. Roy remembering Belkar's deeds and imminent death.

Golem = Brought them to Greysky city, where they have just made contact with a friendly cleric.

They all served a purpose that is beyond Roy's subplot. Roy said it himself; he was angry that they got their own villian to play with and weren't working towards his resurrection. Roy's Archon replied that they'll get around to it soon enough.

[The Hop Goblin]

I'm just happy, despite his ailing health, that he chooses to entertain others free of charge and I shall refrain from stating that I think rather than complain that some entities should quit yakking and if they think can do better get out there and do it.

Rich's doing a fine job, he's been entertaining us for years and years, and I'm perfectly happy to embrace his art and his story at his own pace. Have a little respect for the man and quit gnashing on his hard work.

Oops. I didn't refrain. Oh well.

That being said, hello all. I enjoy reading the forums for the most part but my irritation got the better of me. Greetings.

I'm glad to see someone has some courtesy and respect for an author's work and effort. Thanks for making me not feel completely alone here.

[Trizap]

just because Rich decides to take things a little slowlier, you all hate him for it?
gods above, have you no respect for the person who providing you the entertainment? really hes being generous by doing this for free.

I agree entirely with Hop Goblin and Schaffer on this.

[David Argall]

Summary of Current Plotlines, plus predictions:


Haley & Belkar: Have Roy, traveling to get him rezzed, then trying to meet up with group. Somehow Haley needs to destroy Roy's golem and get the remains to the newly found cleric. ...
there isn't much left for them to do except travel and (soon) deal with Belkar's illness, so that can only add a few more strips at most. I'd say that leaves around 10 strips tops to resolve this tangent.
Ah... we were at 10 strips tops to resolve this tangent 10 Haley strips ago. Not to mention you do not mention dealing with Crystal and the rest of the Thieves Guild.


Durkon, Elan and V: Trying to find their party and beat Kabuto. ... While success may not be immediate, at the very least some kind of confrontation seems immenant. Most likely the imp went back to the ship to get Hinjo killed, since the entire party is away and he said he had to do something b/c of such.
Success is not immediate, the imp is up to something that could keep the party busy for a dozen strips, and we still need a resolution for Therkla. [No, being dragged off to jail is not a proper ending for her.] We could keep that going for 100 strips.



And when the party does get back they'll be another confrontation with Kabuto. Again, 10 strips tops.
Again saying 10 tops is an act of faith. it will only be that way if our writer wants it to be that way.


So 3-4 strips til meetup, with room for maybe one extra 5-strip delaying tangent.

Nah, things are wrapping up too fast.
Here you are right. Remember that the crucial number is 670. 600 is just a convention of little validity for us. 670 or thereabouts will be the end of the next book. By about that strip number we should have Roy raised, Azure City freed, and the party on their way to the next gate [a likely splash page.] So this 10-10-5 schedule leaves 60 pages
We can put in 10 pages for Team Evil learning the location of the next gate and leaving for it, but what are we going to do for the other 50 pages? It did take about that long to capture the city before, but it's unlikely the recapture will be nearly as long.
So we need something to delay the plot 20-30 strips.



there just aren't any other "slow" options left for the story except what I wrote above.
Nonsense. There are droves of them. Another Linear Guild series is entirely possible for example.


Not coincidentally, I'm sure, it seems like that'll be around strip 600. I wasn't part of the "rez/meet at 600" crowd before, but now it seems way too obvious that something conclusive has to happen at strip 600.

Bah. 600 is just a number, and our writer has shown rather trivial respect for that number. As I have noted 400 and 500 were not even outstanding enough to rate best of 5, much less best of 25 or best of 100. There is even less reason to honor 600.

[Lissou]

I don't think anybody said they hated Rich or the strip. Although I disagree with people who think the strip isn't as good as it used to be, they're allowed to express their opinion.

To the person who compared the first 100 strips and the last ones... Don't forget that the first 100 strips have become classics, and have been referred to in other strips, just because they're older. I've been re-reading the first strips myself, and pretty carefully as I'm translating them, and although I enjoy them I think they lack something, an actual story. It's only midway through the second book that I really got hooked to OOTS, before that I was just reading it because my husband asked me to.

I also think the jokes have become finer in many cases, and therefore funnier, but that's just my taste in humour I guess.

Anyway... My opinion on this is simple: you think it's frustrating, that they can't do anything, that they're not making progress? THAT'S THE POINT.
Really. Just like Harry Potter 7, in which nothing happens for most of the book. Nothing happens, but time is still going by, and for readers to know that, there needs to be stuff to read.
So the writer writes the story so it's going on in a somewhat slower pace, and shifts from one person to the next. And don't forget that 3 full months were pretty much skipped.
Things are falling into place, it's just that we don't know how exactly. We needed to see how desperate V was, and that meant a progression in his state, and seeing his frustrations (and yes, that includes the birds failing).
With the Oracle, one of the predictions came true. We also saw that the Oracle does know things with a lot of details, as he knows exactly when he's about to get killed. And of course the MoJ was triggered. Why aren't more people happy with that? They'd been complaining about the MoJ being there for so long with "nothing happenning".

Ok, I have to go back to work now (stupid short lunch breaks >.>) but I think you get my meaning. IMO, the strip is still pretty good, and I'm enjoying it. I anticipate what's going to be next more and more.

[ericgrau]

David_Argall's comments:

The difficulties Haley has to overcome to get out of that city IS the thieve's guild. Switching to the linear guild now is a bit of a stretch. They're on the way to the next gate. What, do they really have a plan to find it, overcome its epic defenses and activate it now?

One way or another Haley has to get Roy and rez him or get out of that city w/o Rezzing him. Either way that'll leave no reason to take any more side trips. Especially since the cleric will also either heal or fail to heal Belkar (at which point they'll have to give up on him). Worst case scenario they get Roy's body, the cleric gets killed and the continue elsewhere. Now we have to think how many major locations are left that might actually interrupt them before their final destination.

One way or another the ship group is confronting Kabuto soon. Either they take him down or Kabuto takes over. Worst case scenario everyone who might testify against Kabuto gets killed, but they still try to track down the imp. Therkla was the main assasin, and character devolopment of another doesn't make sense now. Some anonymous ninjas are more likely. After they track down the imp and another assasination attempt or two, the only one left to confront is Kabuto. Though I don't even think it'll go that far; I think they're about to confront the big demon and the ninja assasins, followed by Kabuto's trial and/or escape attempt. Even if they're short on evidence, there's been too much buildup for some to not crop up now.

After that we need some time for the reunion.

EDIT:
Oh yeah, I suppose an Azure City /O'Chul rebellion could be heating up. But it seems way too early for them to have any concrete plan worth watching. And the action in the other two plotlines is just too hot to drop now. At least until the capture of Kabuto (or failure thereof) and the lull before the trial (or other non-conflict event).


(end predictions, hence /spoiler)

And throughout all of this several things have been developing. Some are resolutions to new things, but as mentioned the MoJ got resolved. O'Chul's situation has been explored in detail. Nah, man, all this slowdown seems to be causing a ton of development to fuel future action. But if people don't like that action and just want them to go to the next gate instead; meh, to each his own.

[Devon]

All the "diversions" and "empty gestures" remind me of 3/4 of the rpg's i have ever played (rich being ironic maybe?), where you get a slower section because after twelvety hours of writing and rewriting, the GM has realised he wants some easy to run content while he attends to god knows what in his real life, so that when the plot gets all fast paced and involved again, he has dealt with all those things and can keep things going at the lightning pace the audience will be screaming for.

give the guy a break tbh, he has earned enough good credit with us (the audience) to have a little slowdown. it's not like the rest of us are producing award winning comics all day every day.

show the man some love, we get some awesome stuff for free, and he hasn't once tried to make us subscribe or anything.

Devon

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Some are resolutions to new things, but as mentioned the MoJ got resolved.
Not really resolved. Just developed. It's been triggered, but it's still there.

[Lamech]

To the people who are measuring pacing against progress to defeat Xykon:
I think that the pacing seems fairly similar both before and after Roy's death, and I don't think the OotS has made much of any progress against Xykon, since the first gate. I suppose they learned Xykon is still alive, but other than that, nothing. They rebuilt the sword, but Roy's sword didn't do much of anything against Xykon. And of course, they blew up one of the world protecting gates, after Roy died. While Xykon on the other hand got an army, conquered a city, gained Tsukiko, and probably bolstered his army numbers with undead.
The OotS has had set backs before and after Roy's death. Getting kidnapped, being beaten up by a sorceress, the linear guild, and now a broken party.

[ericgrau]

Not really resolved. Just developed. It's been triggered, but it's still there.

Ok, "developed" then, w/e. Rich is developing a lot of things and I love it. It is 1,000 miles from filler. It's a weave of integrated plots and subplots all indirectly or directly tied to the main plot. Enter dungeon, beat up baddies, reach BBEG, defeat BBEG once and for all, rinse, repeat just doesn't cut it. Even the dungeon of durokon strips started adding intricacies and what not before they got out. Seems like only one strip after "success", Rich had a strip that showed how the adventure was the farthest thing from cut and dry (and far from victory) with all the complicated plots from the dungeon unfolding. And it has only escalated from there. This is gold, and I like watching it play out.

It reminds me of the "Cymbeline", the best play eva IMO. There must be twenty different overlapping subplots involving each of the characters over the course of 95% of the play. Seemingly seperate, yet all somehow intertwined.

(spoiler tags for generalized description of ending)

Then there's a battle, everybody gets drafted one way or another. The twenty major characters are before the king, ready for execution. Pleas are to no avail. They're about to all be killed then one guy says...

"Wait, why do you have that ring?" (important to a subplot)

Then the whole situation explodes as convoluted plot after convoluted plot unravels triggering a resolution to the next plot and everyone is saved. It's abs-a-friggin' hilarious. You half-expect the king to interrupt the whole thing halfway through and say "Gah! How can this much complicated drama really happen and why is every member of it here at once?" (there are twenty reasons...) Simply epic.

It's like when Nale goes after Haley, Roy sleeps through the whole thing, wakes up, and thinks he's in some kind of alternate universe when he sees all the party's sub-problems resolved so neatly & elegantly together all at once.


Buildup makes good awesome stories.

[Kaytara]

*eloquent arguments that hit the nail on the head*
Buildup makes good awesome stories.

Seconded for truth. ^^

[Yemkela]

I'm the new guy. I just read all 580+ strips in the last week or so. I have to say, the comic is seriously addicting and I had to force myself to stop reading it when I had other things to do (such as, I don't know, SLEEP).

My favorite storylines though have been the original dungeon crawl (which led itself to more jokes since the plot wasn't as complex), Elan's capture and training, the battle for Azure City, and Roy's afterlife. For me, I don't think the plot has slowed at all. The only time I felt like it was just sort of meandering was the resting period after they escaped the original dungeon. But there were enough jokes during that time to keep things interesting while the plot stalled.

I think it's important to remember that the main overarching plot was NEVER fast paced. Subplots have always been played out first, while the Gates plot slowly moves toward its conclusion. I think this is because once the Gates plot is resolved, the original focus of the entire comic is over, and it's time for the comic to stop or to set up a sequel/ spin-off. Nobody wants it to stop, so don't take the side quests and extraneous plots for granted.

I'm sort of reminded of the whole criticism of the show LOST. People wanted answers and wanted the story to keep moving forward, but this meant that the producers gave the series a finite end date, and the show lost a lot of its character when it started focusing almost 100% on the plot instead of the characters.

So what I'm saying is, this complaint pops up in almost every work of episodic fiction. Just enjoy what's getting produced, and don't dwell too much on what hasn't happened yet.

[DBear]

I guess my conclusion is that the comic has slowed, not so much because the plot is slower, but because the presentation is more staid and less sparkling. That might be an inevitable process of an author running out of really good jokes, or it might be that the web comic is now a side effect of producing the books rather than vice versa, but there is a difference.


I blame Cerebus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0242.html)

[LuisDantas]

Come to think of it, the strip is generally more engaging the slower it gets. The Azure City Siege was quite busy, and therefore quite slow too.

Roy leaped onto Xykon's undead dragon in #430 and only left it in #442; Xykon entered the Throne room in #447 and didn't leave it before #462. That is over 30 strips for dealing with events that just couldn't have taken long to happen.

The Linear Guild was first seen in #043 and wasn't defeated until #069 - and even then we had consequences up until #085, with Durkon refusing to talk further about them, even.

The Order and Miko entered an Inn in #226 and had a rather short stay there that still lasted until #243, without ever leaving the place during that time IIRC.

Haley got her speech impediment in #247 and remained with it until #394.

If anything, the plot is moving forward considerably faster than it used to. Of course, it is also rather more complex and has more characters to develop, so our favorites take that much longer to appear again, which may be the real reason for the perception of a slower pace.