Wheel of Time Movie Announced

[Rare Pink Leech]

At first I thought this was a joke, but apparently it's true: Universal Pictures has bought the film rights to the entire The Wheel of Time series. They'll be starting with The Eye of the World. Linky. (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117990464.html?categoryid=13&cs=1)

Thoughts? I think it's a terrible idea. The movie format is absolutely the wrong choice for The Wheel of Time. A miniseries (preferably animated) would be much better.

[Dhavaer]

Will there be braid tugging?

[Helanna]

This is either going to be THE coolest movie ever, or it's going to suck so badly that fans are going to lynch the director. Possibly both at once.

I am extremely excited about this, but also worried. There are a LOT of pitfalls for a movie. Will they do the special effects right? Will they get all the details? Will they stay true to the book? Will it just over-all suck?

I really don't think this is the right media, though. An animated miniseries would indeed be better - I would definitely love that, so, so much. But I guess I'll take a movie.

Although I'm worried - before he died, didn't RJ say that he was unhappy with Red Eagle?


Will there be braid tugging?

There'd better be! Nynaeve would be lost without that and her sniffing!

[Revanmal]

Much braid-pulling, chin raising, sniffing, and over-nose talking. Stuck up b*tches they are in those books. :smallannoyed:

But seriously, I am truly hoping for the movie to do well. Though I just KNOW the fanboys are going to start griping when they don't include all 80,000 minor characters the books have. Seriously, there are WAY too many people in that series.

[freerangetroll]

Oh please no. My childhood was already wasted reading the series... /crai

[Trizap]

NO! WoT is far too good to be a movie! WoT is too freakin' awesome, too brilliant for the movies, so infuriating

[averagejoe]

Much braid-pulling, chin raising, sniffing, and over-nose talking. Stuck up b*tches they are in those books. :smallannoyed:

Don't forget crossing their arms beneath their breasts.

No good can come of this. It's a series that just does not translate well to film without cutting wide swaths through it. Now, this isn't something I mind per se, but the main group of people who will be interested in the movies (fans of the books) will gripe endlessly about it. Like with the Harry Potter movies, most of the negative responses will be about how they left this or that out or, like Revanmal said, left their favorite Nearly Insignificant Character out. Meanwhile, the people who aren't fans of the books will probably just consider it another ripoff/clone leeching off the success of Lord of the Rings, and, let's be honest with ourselves, they won't be entirely wrong.

[freerangetroll]

Jordan and Goodkind, two authors who's writing didn't deserve to be read and they are both getting visual media for their series as well. So unhappy, why couldn't Hollywood pick something good... like Malazan?

[Innis Cabal]

No......bad idea.....12 books.....1 movie.....no. Not seeing it.

[Trizap]

Don't forget crossing their arms beneath their breasts.

No good can come of this. It's a series that just does not translate well to film without cutting wide swaths through it. Now, this isn't something I mind per se, but the main group of people who will be interested in the movies (fans of the books) will gripe endlessly about it. Like with the Harry Potter movies, most of the negative responses will be about how they left this or that out or, like Revanmal said, left their favorite Nearly Insignificant Character out. Meanwhile, the people who aren't fans of the books will probably just consider it another ripoff/clone leeching off the success of Lord of the Rings, and, let's be honest with ourselves, they won't be entirely wrong.

oh my god, your right, its even worse, people will think that its freakin' ripoff of Lord of the Rings of all things! and LotR doesn't even compare to any of Robert Jordan's books, WoT > LotR, you all know that I speak truth :smallfurious:

[Mr. Scaly]

Uh oh...I sense a fiasco coming. Has the series even ended yet?

[horngeek]

Jordan and Goodkind, two authors who's writing didn't deserve to be read and they are both getting visual media for their series as well. So unhappy, why couldn't Hollywood pick something good... like Malazan?

NO! Wheel of Time is one of the best book series I have ever read, and given how much I read (a lot), that is high praise indeed. I would rate Jordan as THE BEST fantasy author I have ever read.

Don't you DARE say it did not deserve to be read. Don't you DARE.

[Innis Cabal]

It dosnt deserve it. And i mean that. It is sub-par writing after the 3rd book

[kamikasei]

*frantically waves hands to divert the impending flame war*

I haven't read Wheel of Time. But from everything I've heard about them I can't imagine you could make them into movies, even one movie per book, that would be faithful enough to be worth attaching the name to, unless they were absolutely terrible as movies.

It's bizarre to me that anyone would try. A miniseries - or more precisely a giant, extra-long series - does seem like it'd be a much better idea.

[Trizap]

I agree with horngeek, best fantasy author ever, don't dare say he doesn't deserve to be read, don't you dare.

[Pink]

This will end badly. Whether or not they can make one good movie isn't the problem. Can they make 12? Considering that some of those books aren't really stellar reads at best? Sure, they may start with just some cuts here and there, but eventually they'll be reaching parts where "Oh no, we cut the background for this part out!" and need to rewrite and then later they'll be larger cuts and by the end won't it just be something completely different?

That alone makes it a bad idea, however It also doesn't have a far reaching audience beyond fans as well. To the casual viewer who has no knowledge of the books, It will be seen as a Lotr rip off (Not calling it one myself, I'm just saying to the person who hasn't heard of Robert Jordan it will be seen that way). To the fan it will not be true enough to the written word.

Lotr at least had the fact that at the time the concept of fantasy adventure films was more fresh to bring in those that didn't care about books.

[freerangetroll]

NO! Wheel of Time is one of the best book series I have ever read, and given how much I read (a lot), that is high praise indeed. I would rate Jordan as THE BEST fantasy author I have ever read.

Don't you DARE say it did not deserve to be read. Don't you DARE.

Quantity of titles read does not mean good taste. Now it doesn't mean bad taste either, but that isn't a particularly strong argument for the quality of the novels.

George Martin, Stephen Erickson, Simon R. Green, Terry Pratchett. Those are authors with a strong track record of quality work. Once Jordan got outside of the third book they all read the same, with the same dull and bland characters. The wheel of time characters with the possible exception of mat never changed their outlook or their personalities. It was repetative, trite ,and boring.

Goodkind is worse though.

[horngeek]

kamikasei is right on my opinion on this. I would not make it into a movie.

That said, seeing somone say that this series was not worthy of reading REALLY made my blood boil, as those who read my earlier post will realise. Innis Cabal, you are WRONG. I do not know about your other veiws, but on this, both you and freerangetroll are WRONG.

[Trizap]

yes it will................stupid movie industry, stupid hollywood.

I have now a new Conspiracy theory about pop culture: Hollywood is a parasite upon our culture, taking the best of the best quality works and warping, corrupting, gutting, twisting and deforming them into monstrosities that only cause people anger and suffering!!

[freerangetroll]

kamikasei is right on my opinion on this. I would not make it into a movie.

That said, seeing somone say that this series was not worthy of reading REALLY made my blood boil, as those who read my earlier post will realise. Innis Cabal, you are WRONG. I do not know about your other veiws, but on this, both you and freerangetroll are WRONG.

Its a matter of taste. I don't like it, in my opinion I am right, and in yours you are right.

I just happen to think that your fandom for this particular series is a bit incomprehensible... but whatever floats your boat.

[Trizap]

kamikasei is right on my opinion on this. I would not make it into a movie.

That said, seeing somone say that this series was not worthy of reading REALLY made my blood boil, as those who read my earlier post will realise. Innis Cabal, you are WRONG. I do not know about your other veiws, but on this, both you and freerangetroll are WRONG.

I agree with that, those two are wrong, just wrong, and I also agree V is female, but thats another topic, point is......


THEY ARE WRONG!!! WRONG I SAY!

[Anteros]

I'd say both sides are right. The writing for the series does decline around the third book. However it goes up again shortly after and then declines again every few books thereafter. When Jordan is good, he is very good. But when he is bad, he is very bad....producing pointless, filler books. At least with the last book it seemed to be swinging back up into good again, so maybe the final book will be of good quality.

[Ascension]

I don't suppose there's any chance you could have a civilized and thoughtful discussion of the reasons behind your differing opinions rather than shouting "You're wrong!" back and forth at each other, is there?

That being said, I echo kamikasei's statements. Though I haven't read the WoT, even I know enough about it to say that a film series isn't Sparta, it's just plain madness.

When will studios learn that some most books just aren't meant to be adapted to film? :smallconfused:

[freerangetroll]

I'd say both sides are right. The writing for the series does decline around the third book. However it goes up again shortly after and then declines again every few books thereafter. When Jordan is good, he is very good. But when he is bad, he is very bad....producing pointless, filler books. At least with the last book it seemed to be swinging back up into good again, so maybe the final book will be of good quality.

I do have hopes for the last one. Thank Ao that his son isn't writing it.

Edit for the post above:

1.) Characters are in no way dynamic. Rand despite all the supposed traumatic events that have been heaped on him remains the exact same person. See any other character aside from Mat and you get the same thing.

2.) Half of the books are filler. They don't advance the plot at all and just serve as a platform for Jordan's battle of the sexes (see point three).

3.) All men are harem wanting untrustworthy dogs. All women are control freak, distrusting know it alls who for some odd reason want to be in Rands harem. At least in Jordan's world.

4.) The enemies are cardboard cut out evil. You know who is a bad guy within four seconds of meeting them... even if they are a spy.

5.) For some reason the characters can't figure out these incredibly obvious bad people are bad. I think it is because they are spending too much time lambasting the opposite sex.

6.) Faiyle. I really can't explain that one. She is just to me one of the most horrid characters ever penned.

7.) He does give glimpses of brilliance in writing, so the fact that the majority of the series is over exposition and descriptive drivel frustrates me even more.

I can come up with more, but I'm getting depressed just thinking about it.

[Trizap]

When will studios learn that some most books just aren't meant to be adapted to film? :smallconfused:

did you actually read my conspiracy theory about Hollywood, or am I going have to recite it again?

[kamikasei]

When Jordan is good, he is very good. But when he is bad, he is very bad....producing pointless, filler books.

A case could be made that a good writer should know when his writing is bad, and not publish it. Of course, then you get the question of whether someone can be a bad author if they can produce excellent material but are bad at editing out the sub-par stuff. (Not saying that this is the case with Jordan - have never read a word the man's written - just going off what Anteros says, here.)

[Anteros]

The problem is that each of these details is actually necessary to tell the story that Jordan wants to tell. Sure, he could tell a very similar story with far less detail, but he chooses not to. Sometimes it drags the series down, but the same attention to detail is what makes the series so epic.

Also, the WOT series would be great if adapted to anime form. I'm very skeptical about a movie.

[kamikasei]

The problem is that each of these details is actually necessary to tell the story that Jordan wants to tell. Sure, he could tell a very similar story with far less detail, but he chooses not to. Sometimes it drags the series down, but the same attention to detail is what makes the series so epic.

If this is a response to me... if all the details you want to include in your story require you to have long, uninteresting stretches that test a reader's patience and interest, that seems like a failure of your storytelling craft. Sure, any narrative is going to have slow points, but if you have entire books that make readers question whether the series is worth it that strikes me as a legitimate mark against you.

Or to put it another way: the question isn't simply whether he should tell the story with less detail, but whether he could tell the story with better detail, or is wedded to the particulars of what he's come up with at the expense of the story's overall quality.

[Innis Cabal]

I feel other then Mat all the other characters become boring, utterly and absolutly uniteresting. By book 7 I wondered why I was still reading, by ten the idea that Mat got better just reminded me why the series should have ended at 4.

[Anteros]

If this is a response to me... if all the details you want to include in your story require you to have long, uninteresting stretches that test a reader's patience and interest, that seems like a failure of your storytelling craft. Sure, any narrative is going to have slow points, but if you have entire books that make readers question whether the series is worth it that strikes me as a legitimate mark against you.

Or to put it another way: the question isn't simply whether he should tell the story with less detail, but whether he could tell the story with better detail, or is wedded to the particulars of what he's come up with at the expense of the story's overall quality.

And yet the series has managed to sell how many millions of copies, and is widely hailed as an excellent piece of literature. This is not Eragon we're talking about here. This is a legitimately good fantasy series that has a few snags. (Which one doesn't?) I personally find the LOTR books mind numbingly boring. Someone needed to tell Tolkein he was writing a story, not a dictionary about the specific shades of trees and grass. That doesn't stop most people from considering it to be excellent.

[Trizap]

I feel other then Mat all the other characters become boring, utterly and absolutly uniteresting. By book 7 I wondered why I was still reading, by ten the idea that Mat got better just reminded me why the series should have ended at 4.

{Scrubbed}

[Weezer]

I feel other then Mat all the other characters become boring, utterly and absolutly uniteresting. By book 7 I wondered why I was still reading, by ten the idea that Mat got better just reminded me why the series should have ended at 4.

You sum up my feelings exactly, I started off loving the series, the intracate plot, images, etc. It had the makings of an exceptional series but it was just too long, too much unneeded detail and plot points. After the 5th or 6th book it lost all enjoyment for me except for the parts that involved Matt. I actually skipped some parts of book 10 and did not feel like a missed anything. I later reread the book this time reading the whole thing and I did not come away feeling like I picked up on things the second time that I missed.

Saying all that I will be reading the final book when it comes out, because while the wheel of time is not an exeptional series it is at least decent which is more than can be said for the majority of fantasy series.

[freerangetroll]

I'd actually agree with you about tolkien.

I am however going to point out that quantity read does not quality make. Eragon, The twilight series, and other horrifically written series have sold in the millions or show strong sales.

I guess I just expect more from what I read these days. More grit, more grim, more dynamic characters. I really like the series until I was reading book five and realised that it was just book two again in a different location. Jordan gave in to the lure of money and extended the story so he could get those paychecks. That is probably my biggest grievance. When an author suborns his vision to milk a few extra dollars. Great concept from Jordan, really bad execution.

[Mr. Scaly]

I liked the series last time I read it (way back when). It's long, involved, and full of all that stuff that makes fantasy interesting...heroes, villains, monsters...personal struggles and byzantine plots. But honestly? I don't think it's adaptable to a movie. Or even a series of them.

[WalkingTarget]

I got into the series after book 8 was out and picked up all of them to that point from a book club for $1 apiece, so I've been tortured less than some.

I like the books. They're not great, but I enjoy them. I've heard a lot of people's complaints over the years, and while they're complaints are valid, their criteria for dislike don't apply to me. The thing that most mystifies me is the rabid hate directed at Faile. She's not my favorite character, but I was surprised to find so much venom in large parts of the readership. I digress.

That being said, I think that films are a terrible idea. I don't even think that they're particularly well-suited to being animated miniseries. Some books are just best as books.

I did have a few questions/comments for frt though.


1.) Characters are in no way dynamic. Rand despite all the supposed traumatic events that have been heaped on him remains the exact same person. See any other character aside from Mat and you get the same thing.

Not necessarily limited by the section I'm quoting here, but for somebody who has complained as much about the deficiencies of the series, have you read all of them? If so, why? You obviously didn't care for it past a certain point, so why put up with the interminable gaps between books and/or read them beyond when you decided you didn't like them? It just seems odd to me that somebody would put in the time required to read these books if they didn't enjoy them at all. It's like people who were outraged at the things that Howard Stern did on his radio show so they began listening to every broadcast so they knew what to be outraged about. My only guess is that you read the next few hoping that they'd be a return to form and are mad that they didn't after you put the time in anyway.


3.) All men are harem wanting untrustworthy dogs. All women are control freak, distrusting know it alls who for some odd reason want to be in Rands harem. At least in Jordan's world.

First: Perrin. Second: Lan. Neither of these (prominent) men want harems and both of them are about as trustworthy as characters get. A second woman tries to worm her way into Perrin's life, but he's never even considered being unfaithful. As for Mat, he doesn't want a harem, he's just a womanizer but you never get the idea that any of the women don't know exactly what they're getting into with him. Min is hardly a control freak and most of the other prominent women are in positions of authority in one form or another to begin with (and the men in authority are control freaks too). Rand ends up with a harem of 3, which even he realizes is weird and spends most of the series trying to figure out how to deal with that when they come to him telling him what's what. There are characterization problems, sure, but your point here is exaggerated at best.


I'd actually agree with you about tolkien.

And that's probably indicative of the differences in opinion here. If you dislike Tolkien because of the long descriptions of setting it doesn't surprise me that you dislike the WoT. Like a surprising amount of what I read, neither author is for everyone. Tolkien wrote the story he wanted to write because it was what he enjoyed. The fact that he was able to turn it into a salable product was a bonus for him. I don't know/haven't read anything about Jordan that indicates that it was all for the money or that he was writing it the way he did because that's the way the story went in his head.


I guess I just expect more from what I read these days. More grit, more grim, more dynamic characters.

Not everybody is into grit and grim in everything. I like Martin as much as the next guy, but I don't demand that everything is as dark as what he writes. I guess my responses here can be summed up as "if you don't like [an author]'s books, just don't read them."

Likewise to people on the other side: "Just because you like [author]'s books doesn't mean that everyone has to." Recommending a book to somebody is one thing. Berating them because they gave it a shot and didn't care for it doesn't serve any real purpose.

[Helanna]

Well, I think Walking Target summed it up pretty well, but I'll add this:

Robert Jordan's style is a long, overly-descriptive style. It's much like Tolkien. Now it's okay if you don't like that style. A lot of people really don't.

But saying that a series is a waste of time and isn't worth reading at all, just because YOU personally don't like the style, is going a bit far.

Jordan did drag it out a bit (well, a lot) longer than necessary. But a lot of fans don't mind. I don't mind at all, because a) I've never really minded filler, and b) I don't think it's a BAD thing if my favorite book series gets extended! In fact, I think it's a good thing!

Of course you might have a different opinion. But I have to agree: Why on earth did you keep reading if it's obvious that you don't like the books?! Then it really is a waste of your time!


*frantically waves hands to divert the impending flame war*

Nice try. :smallamused:

Now, about the movie itself - a lot of people are saying that it'll have to cut out a lot of the book. Yes, it will. It will cut out the *description*, which is about half the book anyways. All that'll be left is the plot, so it'll be easier to understand. So this might actually gain WoT a few fans. Of course people are going to complain - I'll probably be one of them - but you *can* ignore them, y'know.

Oh - and anime WoT would be awesome beyond words.

[Dhavaer]

So unhappy, why couldn't Hollywood pick something good... like Malazan?

Because the Malazan Book of the Fallen has ~1000% of Hollywood's quota of main character deaths.

[freerangetroll]

Not necessarily limited by the section I'm quoting here, but for somebody who has complained as much about the deficiencies of the series, have you read all of them? If so, why? You obviously didn't care for it past a certain point, so why put up with the interminable gaps between books and/or read them beyond when you decided you didn't like them? It just seems odd to me that somebody would put in the time required to read these books if they didn't enjoy them at all. It's like people who were outraged at the things that Howard Stern did on his radio show so they began listening to every broadcast so they knew what to be outraged about. My only guess is that you read the next few hoping that they'd be a return to form and are mad that they didn't after you put the time in anyway.

Stopped at eight. I have a serious problem with not finishing something I've started.




First: Perrin. Second: Lan. Neither of these (prominent) men want harems and both of them are about as trustworthy as characters get. A second woman tries to worm her way into Perrin's life, but he's never even considered being unfaithful. As for Mat, he doesn't want a harem, he's just a womanizer but you never get the idea that any of the women don't know exactly what they're getting into with him. Min is hardly a control freak and most of the other prominent women are in positions of authority in one form or another to begin with (and the men in authority are control freaks too). Rand ends up with a harem of 3, which even he realizes is weird and spends most of the series trying to figure out how to deal with that when they come to him telling him what's what. There are characterization problems, sure, but your point here is exaggerated at best.

Maybe I should clarify. Those aren't how the characters are actually acting. That is how the opposite sex views them. Lan being an exception I will grant you. But Perrin still had to deal with Faeile's jealousy whenever anything else remotely female came near him. Jordan has massive hangups about the interactions between the sexes. Starting with how magic varied between the sexes, and going down the list. Also the Harem effect just wasn't seen with Rand. It was however the only one that was "consumated".





And that's probably indicative of the differences in opinion here. If you dislike Tolkien because of the long descriptions of setting it doesn't surprise me that you dislike the WoT. Like a surprising amount of what I read, neither author is for everyone. Tolkien wrote the story he wanted to write because it was what he enjoyed. The fact that he was able to turn it into a salable product was a bonus for him. I don't know/haven't read anything about Jordan that indicates that it was all for the money or that he was writing it the way he did because that's the way the story went in his head.

I think Tolkien was a good writer, I just hated the lengths he went to describe which exact shade of grey the moss was on the tree. Jordan descended to hack levels of writing in my opinion. Not only was he extremely long winded, it was just plain bad word crafting.




Not everybody is into grit and grim in everything. I like Martin as much as the next guy, but I don't demand that everything is as dark as what he writes. I guess my responses here can be summed up as "if you don't like [an author]'s books, just don't read them."

For the lighter side? That I consider good reading. The Dresden Files , early Harry Potter, The Valdamer series. I just don't like grim and dark, although it is my preferred reading right now.

Edit: I still don't see anybody trying to defend Jordan's static character development.

[WalkingTarget]

Stopped at eight. I have a serious problem with not finishing something I've started.

Ah. You have simultaneously avoided the worst book of the lot as far as plot progression goes and missed some of the significant character development. I'm not saying that the development that's there would make up for what you disliked, but there is some there that you've missed.


Maybe I should clarify. Those aren't how the characters are actually acting. That is how the opposite sex views them. Lan being an exception I will grant you. But Perrin still had to deal with Faeile's jealousy whenever anything else remotely female came near him. Jordan has massive hangups about the interactions between the sexes. Starting with how magic varied between the sexes, and going down the list. Also the Harem effect just wasn't seen with Rand. It was however the only one that was "consumated".

Ok, thanks for clarifying what you meant there. I'll be one of the first to agree that Jordan has some problems with female characterization.


Edit: I still don't see anybody trying to defend Jordan's static character development.

For my part, that's because that's not a major hangup for me. Sure, people who've been reading since the beginning are now 18 years older than they were then, but less than 3 years have passed in book time so I can understand how it might frustrate people who were the boys' age when the books began to be dealing with people who haven't grown as much. I see changes in character happen, maybe not to the extent that might be expected, but it is there. As I said, there are character problems, but nuance of behavior isn't why I read these books in the first place. I'm not claiming them to be the best thing since sliced bread either, though, so maybe I'm not the audience you're really addressing here.

[Innis Cabal]

Perrin is also easily one of the -worst- characters in the series. By Book 7 i just gave up on him. His girl(and guess what guys, he gets 2) are far mroe interesting. A thing the series had in spades, strong decent female roles. At the expense of whiney male characters. Was it grity? No, not why I disliked it. Was it well written? At times. Did it take itself way to seriously, never end, and lets be honest, continue after its creators death. Sure did. Do all those things make it bad? Not a single one makes it bad. All togather. Yes. It does. I've read up to 10. I felt robbed. But just because i went on with the series dosnt mean i liked them. Not in any way. There is a sense to finish something you started, regardless of how awful it is. And there is always a glimmer of hope, a prayer to the heavens!(tm) that the author decides its done, and finishs it.


RRM has the same problem.

[Gavin Sage]

I both recognize but remain largely unaffected by the flaws of the WoT. I don't think I've read a book without flaws of some nature yet. That said I do not think static character development among them. The long winded grinding of the back half of the series does not stop the books from being my favorite series, and at this point probably my most read series.

And despite its flaws I honestly think its an EXTREMELY short list of writers that can even compare in quality to Robert Jordan's work. Yes Martin is on that list, but one can debate the merits of SoFaI verus WoT forever. I don't think its warranted here. Its far above "not worth reading" in any case, even Goodkind is worth reading for 2-4 books before he completely devolves into a political platform.

In any case I have never seen another author even come close to the level of detail that Jordan does in his story. I'm not even talking about what Mat has for breakfast in the White Tower kinda detail but in the number of characters juggled and how many scenes have some way of advancing the plot. Its the closest I've seen to writing a realisticly (and I mean this in the sense of complexity) fleshed out story of an entire world. And in that light I cannot see how one can make a movie. Jordan hasn't even had the main characters in one location since the Stone of Tear. It boggles the mind to think of a decent movie actually covering things.

Sure the Academy scenes seem useless, except when Herid Fel starts spouting the underlying foundation of the series philosophy. Will a movie producer/scriptwriter/director pick up on that, or have time to make Herid Fel more then a random character showing up to deliever a plot point. Aludra is another character like that, who understanding when she's important in book 11 requires seemingly random setup scenes in books 2 and 3, nevermind Valan Luca. Heaven help the fools on this for the scenes where Jordan hides things in plain sight by simply not describing something.

Now you still might make a movie, but you the WoT has just so much more to loose in the editing. And that's assuming all 12 movies for a LOTR scale film. Or 13 given the scale A Memory of Light will have to be. (I recall not-quite-joking statement by Jordan about it being one book if its over 2000 pages and needs a new binding system while coming with it own cart to be hauled around on)

All in all I think I would rather see Wheel of Time sent over to Japan to be made into an anime series. Only medium really built to cover it, low-budget high-story capable.

[WalkingTarget]

Perrin is also easily one of the -worst- characters in the series.

Well, that's just something that's just not going to get resolved between us then. Perrin is my favorite character (yeah, more than Mat who seems to be most peoples' favorite). Preferences are funny things, aren't they?

[Rare Pink Leech]

For my part, that's because that's not a major hangup for me. Sure, people who've been reading since the beginning are now 18 years older than they were then, but less than 3 years have passed in book time so I can understand how it might frustrate people who were the boys' age when the books began to be dealing with people who haven't grown as much.

I think this is the biggest reason for people disliking The Wheel of Time - people wait so long for the next book, and then the next book, and then the next book, and become disappointed when things don't happen as fast as in the first three books. It's natural. When you wait several years for the next book and nothing seems to get accomplished, you're going to get frustrated. I think, ironically, that most of the people who now hate the series are the long-term fans who grew frustrated at the pace.

I started reading the books when Winter's Heart (book 9) just came out. Yes, I noticed that the later books started to drag out, especially books 7 and 8 if I'm remembering them correctly. But since I got to read the next book right away, it didn't matter. Then I had to wait for three years for Crossroads of Twilight, and I was extremely disappointed that essentially nothing happened since the plot didn't move forward since Jordan brought all the major plot lines to the same moment. I think if I had suffered this same disappointment multiple times I would have become a jaded fan, but since I got to read the majority of the series at once, the complaints about pacing didn't affect me.

Not saying that this covers every criticism levelled towards Jordan, but I honestly believe this is the reason behind most of it.


And despite its flaws I honestly think its an EXTREMELY short list of writers that can even compare in quality to Robert Jordan's work. Yes Martin is on that list, but one can debate the merits of SoFaI verus WoT forever. I don't think its warranted here. Its far above "not worth reading" in any case, even Goodkind is worth reading for 2-4 books before he completely devolves into a political platform.

In any case I have never seen another author even come close to the level of detail that Jordan does in his story. I'm not even talking about what Mat has for breakfast in the White Tower kinda detail but in the number of characters juggled and how many scenes have some way of advancing the plot. Its the closest I've seen to writing a realisticly (and I mean this in the sense of complexity) fleshed out story of an entire world. And in that light I cannot see how one can make a movie. Jordan hasn't even had the main characters in one location since the Stone of Tear. It boggles the mind to think of a decent movie actually covering things.

Sure the Academy scenes seem useless, except when Herid Fel starts spouting the underlying foundation of the series philosophy. Will a movie producer/scriptwriter/director pick up on that, or have time to make Herid Fel more then a random character showing up to deliever a plot point. Aludra is another character like that, who understanding when she's important in book 11 requires seemingly random setup scenes in books 2 and 3, nevermind Valan Luca. Heaven help the fools on this for the scenes where Jordan hides things in plain sight by simply not describing something.

I completely agree with you. Jordan was a master of world building. The world of The Wheel of Time is the most thorough and complete fantasy world I have ever read. It feels real to me.

Similarly, Jordan's ability to foreshadow and set things up that won't come to fruition until much later is unparalleled and simply underrated, or at least not talked about enough.


All in all I think I would rather see Wheel of Time sent over to Japan to be made into an anime series. Only medium really built to cover it, low-budget high-story capable.

I like this idea. I don't like animes, yet I think an anime would be a perfect fit.

[horngeek]

Some points i agree with, some I don't.
Now I've had time to calm down...
The reason I blew up in the first place is that people said that the books were not worth reading.
If somone says that they didn't like it, that's fine. Some people don't like Tolkein, some don't like C.S.Lewis, some don't like Star Wars. And despite the fact that I like all three of these things, I do not blow up at these people.

I blow up and rage at the people who say that these things are not worth reading/watching.

Freerangetroll, that is what made me blow up at you.

[freerangetroll]

You can blow up at me if you want. In my opinion they aren't worth reading *shrugs*.

If you choose to read them I don't have a problem with you personally. It is all about taste.

[Trizap]

You can blow up at me if you want. In my opinion they aren't worth reading *shrugs*.

If you choose to read them I don't have a problem with you personally. It is all about taste.

how do you if they are not worth reading if you haven't read them?

in fact, how do you ever, EVER know if something isn't worth trying, if you don't try it? thats the paradox of your logic, if you don't do it, you won't actually know if its not worth doing or not, but if you do do it, and it fails you have just wasted your time doing something not worth doing, but if it is successful, you prove yourself wrong, so really you have no argument since your unwilling to try, therefore you don't actually know if they are worth reading or not since you didn't read all of them.

[freerangetroll]

how do you if they are not worth reading if you haven't read them?

in fact, how do you ever, EVER know if something isn't worth trying, if you don't try it? thats the paradox of your logic, if you don't do it, you won't actually know if its not worth doing or not, but if you do do it, and it fails you have just wasted your time doing something not worth doing, but if it is successful, you prove yourself wrong, so really you have no argument since your unwilling to try, therefore you don't actually know if they are worth reading or not since you didn't read all of them.


I have read eight of them. I've talked to others about the ones I haven't read. Also considering that 9 and 10 are considered worse then everything but number eight among the peoples opinions I trust I think I can draw a conclusion from that.

Edit: They say eleven is about on par with four. Which is where my distaste started. So not reason enough to read anything past eight.

[CannibalHymn]

Boy, this should be a challenge for all the acresses involved, playing the roles of subserviant, slutty damsel and calculating, still pretty slutty, bitch. On some characters, even both.

I'll give it the miss I should've given the books.

[Revanmal]

Perrin is also easily one of the -worst- characters in the series. By Book 7 i just gave up on him. His girl(and guess what guys, he gets 2) are far mroe interesting. A thing the series had in spades, strong decent female roles.

I like Perrin, cause he seems more relatable to me than the playboy Mat and the half-insane jerk Rand. He doesn't WANT the second girl, and he does everything he can to get rid of her, so I'm not sure why you brought that up..

Also: decent female roles? Yes, sure; all four of them.

There's the young damsel, the snooty headstrong b*tch, the evil b*tch, and the slut with attitude. That's about all. They're the same four people with wigs on. Take away the names and you have no idea who's talking unless they're Aiel, with the constant talk of ji and toh or Taraboner (at least I think its them), with their weird syntax.

[CannibalHymn]

I would say three, max. Snooty headstrong bitch is evil bitch but on the good-guy team. Young damsel is usually at least a little slutty and have something of an attitude, from what I recall, but maybe those characters are seperate.

[freerangetroll]

No, see the problem is all his female characters are the same. The all fall under the aforementioned catagories once they have been in the series for more then one chapter.

[Tengu_temp]

Who wants to bet that this will be horrible, but still better than the Earthsea live action movie?

[freerangetroll]

Who wants to bet that this will be horrible, but still better than the Earthsea live action movie?

My ferret has created better media then the Earthsea LA. I'm taking that bet.

[Ozymandias]

I sort of half enjoyed the books the first way through, but unlike most other books (even bad or mediocre ones) I can't read them again. It's sort of like a weird prose aversion - Jordan has these little things that he uses over and over and while it takes a while to notice, by the third time you read them you really get sick.

I think that whether they make a decent movie or not is going to bee almost completely based on the director and writers and actors, not the source material, to be honest. There's just so much in the series, good and bad - picking and choosing could make it either a lame overview of the bullet-point plot or far, far better than the series was itself.

Jordan isn't better than Tolkien, and neither are exceptional, in my opinion. Tolkien's prose toes the line between expansive and just overly prolix, while Jordan's is either overly prolix or just plain exasperating. Tolkien's characterization always struck me as sort of shallow, while Jordan's was generally either strictly archetypal (Lan, the Aiel), vaguely offensive (Rand apropos his ménage à trois), or both (Nynaeve, or, come to think of it, most of the women in all of the books. There are exceptions, of course, but that doesn't excruciating frequency of "Men are stupid." exchanges.)

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Eh, I read 'em, and I really got lost in all the intricate plotting. They had some interesting ideas, but really...I got lost. I don't do well with high fantasy politick-intensive books. And if RJ requires twelve books to spin out a story...

Yeah, I've got an issue with that.

I may read Book 12, if I can pick up all the plot threads that have blurred together in my mind.

[mangosta71]

The difficulty with the series is that he went off on so many tangents that grew up into side plots that were just as big and important as the main story. Sure, the details are nice, but the overall product probably would have been better off if the side plots were published separately. I enjoyed (most of) the books, but I'm extremely apprehensive about any attempt to turn them into film, because after the second or third book there's just so much going on.

[Prustan]

Wheel of Time movie? Are they crazy? There's far too much stuff to make a good movie out of WoT that's a decent length. And making the whole series into movies? They're going to run into the same problem that Harry Potter has - the actors/actresses are growing up and changing too much, not to mention it'll be really had to get enough actors dedicated enough to stick with it to the end.

WoT anime should work though.

[Whoracle]

Well, that's just something that's just not going to get resolved between us then. Perrin is my favorite character (yeah, more than Mat who seems to be most peoples' favorite). Preferences are funny things, aren't they?

That's a funny thing: Perrin is a character that's not written badly. He's just so goddamn annoying. I have reread the series about 5 or 6 times now, and ever since the first time I skip the Perrin parts. I simply hate him. But a character that has you hating him can't be all that badly written, now, can he?

[Rare Pink Leech]

I have read eight of them. I've talked to others about the ones I haven't read. Also considering that 9 and 10 are considered worse then everything but number eight among the peoples opinions I trust I think I can draw a conclusion from that.

Edit: They say eleven is about on par with four. Which is where my distaste started. So not reason enough to read anything past eight.

Book 9 is considered among the worst? Really? I was under the impression most people (including myself) found this to be the book that picked things up again, not being one of the worst.

I always thought this is how the books generally went for former fans: 1-3 kick ass, 4-6 are still good but where the series starts to go downhill, 7-8 are plain bad, 9 is good at a 4-6 level, 10 is bad, and 11 is back to the 4-6 level. Then again, maybe we've just talked with different groups of people, since before I came to this forum the consensus among everyone (fans and "haters" alike) that books 1-6 were all worth it, whereas here people tend to only recommend the first 3 before they begin to dislike them.

[Mephisto]

Jordan and Goodkind, two authors who's writing didn't deserve to be read and they are both getting visual media for their series as well. So unhappy, why couldn't Hollywood pick something good... like Malazan?

The problem with series like Malazan or A Song of Ice and Fire is that you've got at least half a dozen POV characters wandering around and dozens of subplots all interacting. Not the sort of thing that translates well to a visual medium, no matter how good the story is.

[freerangetroll]

The problem with series like Malazan or A Song of Ice and Fire is that you've got at least half a dozen POV characters wandering around and dozens of subplots all interacting. Not the sort of thing that translates well to a visual medium, no matter how good the story is.


Agreed. I just don't understand why sub par series get movie or tv deals. I really would actually cringe if Malazan went visual for the reasons you just stated.

Although ASoFI was slated to be made into a miniseries by HBO. I believe the idea was trashed rather early on in production though.

[Philistine]

The problem with series like Malazan or A Song of Ice and Fire is that you've got at least half a dozen POV characters wandering around and dozens of subplots all interacting. Not the sort of thing that translates well to a visual medium, no matter how good the story is.

All that is true... but it goes double for WoT. Especially in the later books, where you almost need a scorecard to keep track of who's where doing what to whom.

I note that just because somebody's picked up the 'rights' to make a movie out of some work of fiction, that doesn't mean that a movie will be forthcoming. Rights to various IPs get moved around all the time, and mostly nothing ever comes of it. The author (or his estate, in this case) gets a nice little cash boost, and the company gains value on the stock market even if they never manage to actually do anything with those rights.

[Gavin Sage]

I find it somewhat amusing the sheer number of people complaining about how they got lost in the books. I won't claim to have gotten everything the first time through but it does all have a way of making sense once you do sort it out. Which is one of the most stunning things about the books to me. That it is so complex, with so many characters and sub-plots. Jordan has almost no one appear and become important without some sort of prelude (Cadsuane is a notable exception) to them. I find amazingly... realistic I suppose is the best word. Randland lives and breathes in its own right, instead of being wished into existence when needed by the plot.


Now then on the women. You know I've given this some thought and frankly think the common attack (ie: they're all bitches) on has its source not in a actually being true, but in Nynaeve having way way too much importance.

She's the awkward fifth wheel to the story's core character of Rand, Perrin, Mat, and Egwene. Those four are all sympathetic protagionist types who go out into a big world from small beginings. Nynaeve is not, but can't rank in a mentor character like Moiraine/Lan/Thom from the original group. Yet despite this she gets more screen time then anyone except the core four, of which only Egwene is female too. Come to think of it excepting possibly book 10 she may have a POV chapter in every book and exceed Egwene for screen time. And she's a total and complete bitch, through and through.

I submit Nynaeve colors the perceptions of every other female character in the series by having far more attention placed on her then she's worth as a character.

Which is oddly not helped by Jordan's rather concious refusal to use any "negative" female archetypes. Elayne is not a Princess. The figuative sense is reinforced by this being literally the case. The few times there are damsels in distress they are halfway out of it on there own terms if not entirely so. Egwene speaks to this rather directly in Falme when rescued. Heck I think the most "classically" feminine character of note is Min, who spends her time wearing pants and speaking directly enough to rate as mildly rude. Like it or not the WoT has a very high percentage of strong female characters. And strong females almost have to come off a little bitchy. Add in a total one though, who gets too much time though.... and that's where I think this all the same/bitchy stuff gets started.

[Innis Cabal]

No negative female characters? Really? I'd call the Black Ajah pretty negative wouldn't you?

[Zakama]

[movie announcer guy voice]
This summer... 12 6 hour long movies...
[/movie announcer guy voice]

[Gavin Sage]

No negative female characters? Really? I'd call the Black Ajah pretty negative wouldn't you?

Evil =/= Negative

I'm talking about something else.

[Prophaniti]

I'm aprehensive, much as I was when the LotR movies were announced. Honestly, if they turn out half as good, even considering there will be many things that bug the crap out of me, I'll consider it a smashing success.

[Innis Cabal]

Yes, and so am I.

They posses what I would call negative traits, just because they are evil does not mean they do not. And some of them I would say are very strictly of the female type.

[Mr. Scaly]

I think it will probably end up between LotR the movies, and Eragon the movie. So pretty good but not worth seeing in theater unless I'm impressed.

[CannibalHymn]

Uhm, I recall Jordan openly admitting to making all his female characters one of a few negative female stereotypes because "That's the only kind of women there are."
I don't have a link or anything, but reading it impressed enough derision on me that I am damn sure it happened.

[Premsyl]

I'm optimistic, but I think that Eye of the World is one of the lesser books in the whole series. I'd like to see how it turns out.

[Douglas]

Movies is the wrong way to go with this, I think. The books just have too much going on to reasonably compress to typical movie length without losing too many important details. A TV series would be a much better approach imo.

That said, execution will make a HUGE difference. If it's all planned out and done by talented and smart fans of the series with the entire series in mind from the very beginning so that minor-turned-major characters and plot points are introduced appropriately, it could be done well - if they're willing to make the series long enough.

[Gavin Sage]

Movies is the wrong way to go with this, I think. The books just have too much going on to reasonably compress to typical movie length without losing too many important details. A TV series would be a much better approach imo.

Problem with a TV series is the budget needed. When was the last time you saw something made for TV with an epic battle scene. That wasn't in space. And WoT demands how many battles? Okay you might cut a number of them but that would be harder for the likes of Falme, the Shaido at Cairhein, Dumai's Wells, Rand & the Seanchan, or Malden. Nevermind all those One Power duels, and just how often Channelers use it for anything else.

Sure CGI can do almost anything, but good CGI is exspensive. I don't know that I want my WoT to look like Doctor Who. Not that Doctor Who isn't awesome but its brand of cheesy awesome effects won't work elsewhere.

So I favor animation, cheaper actors, no sets or out door shots, and big effects are not terribly different then no effects.


That said, execution will make a HUGE difference. If it's all planned out and done by talented and smart fans of the series with the entire series in mind from the very beginning so that minor-turned-major characters and plot points are introduced appropriately, it could be done well - if they're willing to make the series long enough.

Well the first few books are fairly doable, particularly the Eye of the World. Once the main group disintegrates into changing sub groups with non-interesecting adventures though..... how much can one cut from Tanchico, how much time will Perrin in Emond's Field demand, what of the White Tower split, or Masema's depradations. Its like predicting how balefire will work out.

[Hawriel]

Uh oh...I sense a fiasco coming. Has the series even ended yet?

No Robert Jordan died last year. He never wrote the last book. oh I meen the 12th book to add more sublots that never get resalved, in wich the whole 800+ page book really only took 1.5 days in actual in story time.

[SilverSheriff]

it's going to suck so badly that fans are going to lynch the director.

thats what I think.

[Gavin Sage]

No Robert Jordan died last year. He never wrote the last book. oh I meen the 12th book to add more sublots that never get resalved, in wich the whole 800+ page book really only took 1.5 days in actual in story time.

Bitter much? And innacurate too, 800 pages is faaar to conservative an estimate.

[Trizap]

Bitter much? And innacurate too, 800 pages is faaar to conservative an estimate.

by now its more like 1100 or something, maybe even 1200......

[Anteros]

Of course if people actually read the entire series before criticizing it they would know that Jordan actually tied up quite a few of the plots during the last release. It’s almost like he waited until the end of the series to end the series! Crazy right?!

My problem with the statements on here is not that I disagree with your opinions. You are entitled to form your own opinion of a series without ever reading a word. However, if you don't actually read the entirety of the series, you really are not qualified to review the books, or to tell others whether or not to read them.

[Gavin Sage]

Of course if people actually read the entire series before criticizing it they would know that Jordan actually tied up quite a few of the plots during the last release. It’s almost like he waited until the end of the series to end the series! Crazy right?!

Knife of Dreams resolves some three sizable plot threads by my count, while setting up one such that it practically demands to be the first chapter of the final book. And resolve a very big plot thread.

I honestly think once the series is complete and people in the future will be able to read it straight through, the lagging of say book 10 will feel like a deep breath before the plunge.

[CurlyKitGirl]

I first saw this thread and thought 'Holy crud. They're making films out of this?!' being surprised because twelve books (one still not out yet either) all over 700 odd pages will make for a lot of films.
Now assume that half of each book is description still makes for over 3 000 pages to transcribe into film.
Even thinking logistically it would be more advisable to make two movies per book for all the sheer detail. But I can't help but think that if movies were to be made it would have to be a movie series in that after book one you almost never see the whole 'group' in one place aafter that as everyone goes off to do their own thing.
So you have threads.
One each for Rand, Mat and Perrin (except where they're together) and then maybe one for the three girls and so on and so on; however, what you get there is a series of plots which'll interact and have different perceptions for each intereaction based on the POV. Sometimes as many as three or four for each interaction, not to mention the more secondary characters views on it as told/heard by another person which shades their whole interactions later.
Anyway, each of these threads wouln't have to stop at the end of a book but continue until some determined cliffhanger or something. And then with this possible solution/following of plots you get a whole new ream of problems separate from the ones of filming each book straight.
To be honest, it'd be a bit like a soap opera, but not.
You'd really have to have some sort of epically long movie series to deal with all their adventures and if you did go book by book with constant POV switching it would be needlessly complicated and you'd forget the other characters' plots and situation after a bit which is why having separate movie thread would be better. But then you have the problem of essentially remaking each book up to six times minimum for the major characters.
An anime series would suit the complexity of the series better as the films would cut out a lot of stuff that'll become relevant later on or cause humungous plot holes.

These books do not lend themselves to a movie format or, if I was entirely honest, any kind of format because they've got too many POVs and plots, sub-plots, sub-sub-plots and background information which isn't necessary yet but will be now.

And on the books themselves: there are many caracters I can not stand, he is too decriptive in places, book 10 was by far the worst as it was pure filler, he has too much filler and filler-which-won't-be-filler-after-you've-read-the-next-two-books which is good but not good i you have to wait X years to find out why the musings of a character who dies two chapters later were so important to Z's plot.
Nevertheless, when he gets it right it's extremely good and there are scenes and characters I love. But when it's all spaced out it's a bit . . . thin.
An average series overall but really very good in many parts, just dragged down by a lot of faults.

[Gavin Sage]

These books do not lend themselves to a movie format or, if I was entirely honest, any kind of format because they've got too many POVs and plots, sub-plots, sub-sub-plots and background information which isn't necessary yet but will be now.

More then that I would argue there are a number of scenes that can't be done convincingly in a visual format. We see a number of Forsaken before there reveal, not wearing disguises but simply not described enough to find there identity. Be a shame to know who Semirahge is a few books early. And work arounds like convienent shadows get old quick, nevermind trying to add OP disguises to every Forsaken with an alternate identity.

(And so help the fandom if the last book doesn't tell us who killed Asmodean, and a movie tries to add something to the scene as to HOW it was accomplished)

[CurlyKitGirl]

More then that I would argue there are a number of scenes that can't be done convincingly in a visual format. We see a number of Forsaken before there reveal, not wearing disguises but simply not described enough to find there identity. Be a shame to know who Semirahge is a few books early. And work arounds like convienent shadows get old quick, nevermind trying to add OP disguises to every Forsaken with an alternate identity.


[ . . .] a series of plots which'll interact and have different perceptions for each intereaction based on the POV. Sometimes as many as three or four for each interaction, not to mention the more secondary characters views on it as told/heard by another person which shades their whole interactions later.

Which is that problem. I seem to remember off the top of my head a good dozen or so POVs where the person they know by sight is very important, but not known for certain, to their plot who are named for certain in another persons' POV.
Also the repeating of scenes as seen by another person will get boring after a while.
Then again, the readers/watchers know who it is so maybe that's acceptable for some things; but yeah, that's another biiiig problem that'll have to be faced.
Also where Mat slips into the old language whose name I can't remember. Or quite frankly the whol ji e toh thing of the Aiel. Name one person who knows what that system actually is. Or any of the other languages. It's okay with the glossary. Actually, the glossary's just important anyway because o all the little details and background stuff it throws in.
another thing is that if it was a film or live action I can see at least 80% of it being green screen. The Ways anyone? Or the huge battle scenes. Or any of the other fantastic things which are just better to make in CG.
This'll end up as a CG film with occasional live action pieces thrown in.

[Arang]

I'm not sure I agree that the books are too long to make movies from, of only because there's so much useless stuff that can be cut.

Like, y'know, all of book 10.

[Irenaeus]

Of course if people actually read the entire series before criticizing it they would know that Jordan actually tied up quite a few of the plots during the last release. It’s almost like he waited until the end of the series to end the series! Crazy right?!

My problem with the statements on here is not that I disagree with your opinions. You are entitled to form your own opinion of a series without ever reading a word. However, if you don't actually read the entirety of the series, you really are not qualified to review the books, or to tell others whether or not to read them.I disagree completely with this. Unless the style, plot progression, characterization or writing suddenly improves greatly after a while, you are fully qualifyed to comment on everything exept the actual ending after reading a few books by them.


I agree with horngeek, best fantasy author ever, don't dare say he doesn't deserve to be read, don't you dare.Don't I? Don't I? Well OOOH LOOK! Somebody's waving their hands! Weeeeee!

[mangosta71]

I disagree completely with this. Unless the style, plot progression, characterization or writing suddenly improves greatly after a while, you are fully qualifyed to comment on everything exept the actual ending after reading a few books by them.

When someone is criticizing a series based entirely off of loose ends, then no, they really can't say anything without finishing it.

[Flickerdart]

It was originally going to be 14 books, wasn't it? Jordan decided to stop at 12 no matter what because he didn't think he had enough time to do 14 (and he was right). Plus New Spring.

And they could very easily cut everything that doesn't have to do directly with Rand and change a few things so it doesn't feel like something is missing. Sure, the story gets nerfed, but enough balefire shooting and most people won't care.

[Helanna]

It was originally going to be 14 books, wasn't it? Jordan decided to stop at 12 no matter what because he didn't think he had enough time to do 14 (and he was right). Plus New Spring.

Well, originally it was supposed to be a trilogy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TrilogyCreep) . . . so okay, maybe there's a LITTLE extra material . . . I hold by my statement that the series is better this way.

I know there are a lot of people that hate the series because "there's too much description!"

. . . Well, DUH!!! That's the writing style. The entire series is like that, because that's how the author writes! If you don't like it, don't read it, it's as simple as that! I know that a lot of people don't like trying to slog through all the description, but other people PREFER this style. Don't try claiming that the entire series sucks just because you personally don't like the style!

. . . Did anyone actually do this on this thread, or is this just something random that popped into my head?

[Gavin Sage]

I'm not sure I agree that the books are too long to make movies from, of only because there's so much useless stuff that can be cut.

Like, y'know, all of book 10.

I once tried to decide on things to cut from book 10, and couldn't find pieces that honestly stuck out as simply to be done away with. Sure showing everyone's reaction to the Choden Kal is time consuming, but it makes sense given that this really it is thus far the biggest event in the series. The book doesn't resolve much, but it builds considerable parts of book 11. Which honestly I think wastes more time if being a better book.

The real solution is to steal a couple plots from book 11 and shift things around that way. Take Perrin's and/or Elayne's plot lines and resolve them in book 10 and you solve the biggest problem with the book. Which is a lack of climax.

[Irenaeus]

When someone is criticizing a series based entirely off of loose ends, then no, they really can't say anything without finishing it.That is completely correct. It is also not in any way in conflict with my post, nor is it what the post that I replied (and objected) to stated;
However, if you don't actually read the entirety of the series, you really are not qualified to review the books, or to tell others whether or not to read them.

But still, thank you for making it clearer.

[psycojester]

I'm almost certain that they're going to screw these movies up by changing the characters.

I just can't see Hollywood leaving Nynaeve, Egwen, Elayne and just about every other female character bar Min as shrill, self-important, domineering, irrational bitches.

They'd probably try to turn them into characters instead of caricatures.



However, if you don't actually read the entirety of the series, you really are not qualified to review the books, or to tell others whether or not to read them.

Because somehow the series finishing will make what he read less ****? He disliked what he read and formed valid opinions based around this fact. A friend lent me the books, i read them and found myself left with the unshakable certainty that Robert Jordan hated women with an intense ferocity, there's an overabundance of pointless description, padding and stock phrases, Jordan was a pretty good world builder but he was a terrible writer.

[Gavin Sage]

I just can't see Hollywood leaving Nynaeve, Egwen, Elayne and just about every other female character bar Min as shrill, self-important, domineering, irrational bitches.

Frankly if you can't see the differences between Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne I wonder if you've actually read the books or merely skimmed them.

[psycojester]

Lets see they're all irrational, they all see love love hen-pecking the male characters, they repeatedly get captured, and they're all ungrateful bitches. Around book 4 or so i think i stopped caring and just kept reading in the vain hope that Nynaeve would get eaten by Trollocs or drowned or just mutilated.

[Helanna]

Egwene has been getting quite a bit of character development ever since she became Amyrlin.

Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elaine all do tend to be alike, but at times they can be very different. Plus, they are NOT the only females in the book - everyone just keeps using them to prove non-existent points. Min, Faile, Moiraine, Morgase, Tuon, and many other female characters don't fall into this archetype at all. (Well, Faile does *sometimes*.)

And the bitchiness . . . let's face it, a lot if not most women can be or are bitches a lot of the time. And I say this as a female. I know I'm a bitch most of the time, and it'll stay that way.


Jordan was a pretty good world builder but he was a terrible writer.

But again: Do you really think he's a bad writer or do you just not like his style? Am I the only one that cares about the difference!?

Which brings me to another question: While reading a snarky chapter-by-chapter summary of Eragon, the writer mentioned WoT a lot, pointing out suspicious similarities in the books. At one point it says (paraphrased): "Every culture in WoT believes in the Creator, and calls him that. There is no variance." Okay, it seems like a valid, if really, really minor and unnecessary nitpick, but then it continues: "This is just one more example of how RJ doesn't understand how societies work and can't create realistic settings".

The sheer stupidity of that statement is one of the things that caused me to stop reading that website, besides the fact that they began criticizing books I actually thought were pretty good, and devolved into endless nitpicking about stupid things.

But am I the only one who thinks that's truly stupid or is this a common criticism? I've never heard RJ criticized because he can't build realistic societies before.

[psycojester]

No thats a pretty stupid criticism. I'm more than happy to take Jordan to task on bad pacing and poorly written characters but he did a really good job of building a world with a detailed history and distinct cultures.

[mangosta71]

I've never heard that particular claim before either. Every culture in WoT also shares a single language. Is that any more believable? Both are easily explained by common origin.

[CurlyKitGirl]

Jordan builds a fantastic world and he can actually use the history to further plot, explain prophecies or just expand the world. Off the top of my head I can't really think of a time when he just spouts history without it being relevant to that particular time. Although that ji e toh explanation just annoys me every time I read the series.
My one, most major nitpick is his dating sytem. I can understand why it's been so complicated, but that doesn't mean it's good.
And the reason why all the main nations involved speak the same language is that they, oh I don't know, originted from the same culture before the Breaking. Not all of them have the same language - the ones beyond the Aiel Waste don't, the Seanchan speak 'English' but with an accent so they must have their own language too (not to mention it's Hawkwing's 'English' mixed in with whatever people who were on the Seanchan islands before), you have the Old Tongue and Trolloc.
And as for 'every culture being the same': Taraboner (or possibly Illianer) dialect; the Aiels' honour system, Seanchan rankings and how it's shown, the Traveller people n the Borderlands are not all exactly the same.
The detail Jordan puts into showing how many nations are distinct is amazing and relevant. Mostly.
I'm not even a great fan of him but I can admire his world building and history.

[Flickerdart]

Please, people, PLEASE use spoiler tags! Some jerk up there just ruined half the series for me before I could catch myself.

[mangosta71]

And the reason why all the main nations involved speak the same language is that they, oh I don't know, originted from the same culture before the Breaking. Not all of them have the same language - the ones beyond the Aiel Waste don't, the Seanchan speak 'English' but with an accent so they must have their own language too (not to mention it's Hawkwing's 'English' mixed in with whatever people who were on the Seanchan islands before), you have the Old Tongue and Trolloc.

Which is exactly my point - they share a common origin, so they share a common language. It also explains the common belief in a Creator. Though I would point out that, given who exactly the Seanchan are, they also have the same origin as the other primary cultures. Any survivors of their conquest of the other continent would have had their culture imposed on them (as has happened numerous times in our own history). The descriptions of the Seanchan accent always make me think of a thick Southern drawl - not indicative of a different native language.

Edit: changed a bit of wording to comply with ^'s wish to not include spoilers without compromising my point.

[Rare Pink Leech]

More then that I would argue there are a number of scenes that can't be done convincingly in a visual format. We see a number of Forsaken before there reveal, not wearing disguises but simply not described enough to find there identity. Be a shame to know who Semirahge is a few books early. And work arounds like convienent shadows get old quick, nevermind trying to add OP disguises to every Forsaken with an alternate identity.

(And so help the fandom if the last book doesn't tell us who killed Asmodean, and a movie tries to add something to the scene as to HOW it was accomplished)

There are ways to get around this; not everything has to happen exactly how they happen in the books. Maybe the Forsaken do disguise themselves. I'm sure there are other ways to visually avoid revealing who a character is, even though they might be tedious and awkward. Although I do agree with you that seeing what a character looks like right away would majorly spoil things, especially since

we still don't know who Demandred is right now

Also, regarding the Asmodean thing,

we will never find out 100% who killed him, at least if Brandon Sanderson doesn't screw things up. Robert Jordan repeatedly said that he would never outright tell us who killed him, since he felt there is more than enough information in the books to let us know who did it. I think the three leading candidates, with plenty of evidence to back up the claims, are Graendal, Slayer, and Moiraine, but I could be wrong since it's been a while since I've read WoT theories. I personally liked Slayer the most of the three.


I once tried to decide on things to cut from book 10, and couldn't find pieces that honestly stuck out as simply to be done away with. Sure showing everyone's reaction to the Choden Kal is time consuming, but it makes sense given that this really it is thus far the biggest event in the series. The book doesn't resolve much, but it builds considerable parts of book 11. Which honestly I think wastes more time if being a better book.

The real solution is to steal a couple plots from book 11 and shift things around that way. Take Perrin's and/or Elayne's plot lines and resolve them in book 10 and you solve the biggest problem with the book. Which is a lack of climax.

Thank you. While I agree that Book 10 has the least amount of plot progression and resolution of any of the books, and is one of my least favourite of the series, I still think that it was necessary, both for what you said and because we needed all the disparate plotlines to be brought to the same point in time, seeing as how far flung they were chronologically.

If you read the series straight through, then many of Book 10's faults are lessened or disappear, which proves, in my mind, that the series needs to be read as one large book rather than (soon to be) 12 books that you can pick any one up and start reading and enjoy the book by itself (although you certainly can do that with the early ones). I also agree with whoever said that, in the future when people can read the entire series at once, there will be many fewer people who so intensely dislike it. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: it's the wait times that have killed the series for people more than anything else. Yes, the faults people point out are still there, but if you can go from one book straight into the next without waiting (like I did) then you just don't care about them as much.

[Helanna]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: it's the wait times that have killed the series for people more than anything else. Yes, the faults people point out are still there, but if you can go from one book straight into the next without waiting (like I did) then you just don't care about them as much.

I agree with this. It must be truly annoying to wait so long for a book, and then have nothing actually RESOLVED in it. Of course, I'm one of the lucky ones - I began reading after book 11 was released. I only have to wait for one book - and it BETTER have a real climax!

[freerangetroll]

I agree with this. It must be truly annoying to wait so long for a book, and then have nothing actually RESOLVED in it. Of course, I'm one of the lucky ones - I began reading after book 11 was released. I only have to wait for one book - and it BETTER have a real climax!

Could be some truth to this. I started reading the series when I was 13. I'm 25 now. :|

[Gavin Sage]

Lets see they're all irrational, they all see love love hen-pecking the male characters, they repeatedly get captured, and they're all ungrateful bitches. Around book 4 or so i think i stopped caring and just kept reading in the vain hope that Nynaeve would get eaten by Trollocs or drowned or just mutilated.

Nynaeve is, and she recieves too much attention for being an annoying character. She is also a fifth wheel to the easy equation of the four from Emond's Field plus assorted mentor characters exacerbating her considerable negative features. She's not terribly important to the plot at any point yet is a major, major character.

However Egwene is VASTLY less bitchy then Nynaeve and goes from very distinctly from innocent and naieve protagionist type, to a determined learner, to a mature and crafty leader. She has her moments certainly with the running gag about men and women, but they are radically different from the constant fury from Nynaeve.

Elayne is even more separate, its almost suprising she doesn't start wearing pants and swinging a sword around. If she is like anyone its Aviendha and Min, which is not unintentional I'll say. Now yes Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne can gang up at times, but they are all friends. this buys more into the running gag about men and women the series has to begin with. Which is a gag stolen from the real world mind you, what with our mars and venus. Its hardly like the notions of a 'sisterhood' of solidarity for women is so unnatural either. Or have you never heard women chatting with each other about things they'd likely never bring up with any man? And I've known both myself and other men to make the universal utterance of "women!" on occaison.

Oh and as for ungrateful, there's only really one time and it is addressed later for great justice.


we will never find out 100% who killed him, at least if Brandon Sanderson doesn't screw things up. Robert Jordan repeatedly said that he would never outright tell us who killed him, since he felt there is more than enough information in the books to let us know who did it. I think the three leading candidates, with plenty of evidence to back up the claims, are Graendal, Slayer, and Moiraine, but I could be wrong since it's been a while since I've read WoT theories. I personally liked Slayer the most of the three.

Course its Slayer. Graendal is only in consideration because she has no major counter-points to combat against her doing it. And everyone else that makes sense either expressed ignorance in some way or was otherwise occupied. Moiraine is a crack theory given her letter to Rand, at that point Lanfear makes more sense and they have the exact same barring circumstances. And I'll believe it was Moridin and a horrible pun before either of those two. She only makes sense if it has to be balefire that kills Asmo.

However I'm convince Slayer can be supported. At the end of book 4 we have Padan Fain going to Tar Valon, but it is often forgotten he says "but Camelyn first!" in there too. Now he was already gone from there by the time Asmodean shows up, but who follows Padan Fain.... Slayer. This gives Slayer reason to be in Camelyn. And he's the Shadow's hitman, so he sees a rogue and boom down goes Asmodean.

(What was Fain doing in Camelyn? My money is on touching Morgase with a bit of his taint. She seems quite irrational on certain points, much like Elaida who we know Fain screwed with)

I think there is further evidence. Nynaeve see's a man in the dreamworld during the battle who is not identified as Belial IIRC, despite her later seeing him. Slayer's favorite haunt, albeit this is plenty circumstanial. However if one considers the leading theory before book 9 to be Taimandred, the earliest proof Demandred is not Taim is followed by an appearence by Slayer. Namely in Far Madding the one of the Darkfriend Asha'man expresses confusion over how Taim and Demandred gave the same order, as if unaware of the other's action. Right after, boom Slayer pops up for his only POV chapter. And clears up a few mysteries then too.

Given that Jordan won't say directly, it seems clear to me he wrote in a specific if hidden message to the readers outlining who he means is obvious

At least that's my thinking. They better not tell us in the book. Though I could support a "Dumbledore is gay" type thing.


Thank you. While I agree that Book 10 has the least amount of plot progression and resolution of any of the books, and is one of my least favourite of the series, I still think that it was necessary, both for what you said and because we needed all the disparate plotlines to be brought to the same point in time, seeing as how far flung they were chronologically.

If you read the series straight through, then many of Book 10's faults are lessened or disappear, which proves, in my mind, that the series needs to be read as one large book rather than (soon to be) 12 books that you can pick any one up and start reading and enjoy the book by itself (although you certainly can do that with the early ones). I also agree with whoever said that, in the future when people can read the entire series at once, there will be many fewer people who so intensely dislike it. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: it's the wait times that have killed the series for people more than anything else. Yes, the faults people point out are still there, but if you can go from one book straight into the next without waiting (like I did) then you just don't care about them as much.

I was the one that said that. And yeah I first got start on WoT four years ago when I bought Eye of the World in an airport to read on the plane. A month later I was picking up book 10 hot off reading book 9, and it didn't bother me much at all.

[Anteros]

More then that I would argue there are a number of scenes that can't be done convincingly in a visual format. We see a number of Forsaken before there reveal, not wearing disguises but simply not described enough to find there identity. Be a shame to know who Semirahge is a few books early. And work arounds like convienent shadows get old quick, nevermind trying to add OP disguises to every Forsaken with an alternate identity.

(And so help the fandom if the last book doesn't tell us who killed Asmodean, and a movie tries to add something to the scene as to HOW it was accomplished)

Umm...it tells us who "kills" Asmodean (not convinced he's dead.) It clearly says "Death took him." Later on we are introduced to a character named Death. I doubt it's a coincidence.

[Helanna]

And yeah I first got start on WoT four years ago when I bought Eye of the World in an airport to read on the plane. A month later I was picking up book 10 hot off reading book 9, and it didn't bother me much at all.

Heh, almost like me. I actually bought The Eye of the World in it's "children's" form, in two separate books, when I was in 5th or 6th grade at a buy-one-get-one free school book fair. This, of course, was BEFORE I had a huge list of books I must buy and I could just choose books at random. So I read tEotW and though "No big deal. A bit tough to get through." Then I totally forgot about the series.

A few years later, about . . . 9th grade maybe? I re-read the books. Two months later I was completely addicted and I haven't gone for long without reading at least 1 of the books since then.

[Gavin Sage]

Umm...it tells us who "kills" Asmodean (not convinced he's dead.) It clearly says "Death took him." Later on we are introduced to a character named Death. I doubt it's a coincidence.

ugh....

Is all I will say on that theory

[Anteros]

ugh....

Is all I will say on that theory

It fits perfectly with what I've seen of Jordan's writing style.

[Neon Knight]

Which is exactly my point - they share a common origin, so they share a common language. It also explains the common belief in a Creator. Though I would point out that, given who exactly the Seanchan are, they also have the same origin as the other primary cultures. Any survivors of their conquest of the other continent would have had their culture imposed on them (as has happened numerous times in our own history). The descriptions of the Seanchan accent always make me think of a thick Southern drawl - not indicative of a different native language.

Edit: changed a bit of wording to comply with ^'s wish to not include spoilers without compromising my point.

Which is why the various Slavic peoples, after spreading out from a point of common origin, maintained the same language and the same religion.

Oh. Wait. No they didn't. In fact, every single region, every single tribe, and every single clan developed its own dialects, deities, and customs. They have a common basis, a common origin, but there are still massive differences between them, enough to make communication difficult. They can hardly be described as the same thing.

Because they have a common basis, a common origin, in the Proto-Slavic tongue, all Slavic speakers should speak the same language. The reality is that the Slavic tongue is divided into East, West, and South branches, each of which can be divided into distinct sub-branches. Throw in the purely theoretical North Slav branch and you have a massive amount of variation. I mean, have you ever tried to understand a Bavarian after being educated in High German? And those guys live fairly close together. It gets worse as you get spread out further and further apart, and as communication between groups becomes less frequent.

And the religion! Good lord! The pre-Christian Slavs each had their own set of deities. There were a few shared names and concepts, but otherwise everything else changed the second you got over the border. Some areas removed deities, some added them, some relabeled existing ones... Seriously. The supreme deity of one group is another group's minor deity, and that deity is completely absent from another group's pantheon.

Have you ever read Buck Godot? The Winslow, although an exaggeration of this phenomenon, is nevertheless eerily similar to how some real life religions and their variations play out.

This doesn't occur in modern times because of our superior mass communications systems. Everyone can talk to everyone at almost anytime they wish. Everyone can take part in shaping a gigantic common way of speaking (Also, most modern Southern accents are bizarre fusions of British, Irish, and French accents.)

And you? You buy "common origin," despite all real life evidence to the contrary. GWurh... Glak...

SLAVOPHILE RAAAAAAAAAGGGEEEEEE!!!!

[Gavin Sage]

It fits perfectly with what I've seen of Jordan's writing style.

Except... completely not?

[Douglas]

Umm...it tells us who "kills" Asmodean (not convinced he's dead.) It clearly says "Death took him." Later on we are introduced to a character named Death. I doubt it's a coincidence.
Robert Jordan explicitly stated at some point that he thought who killed Asmodean was immediately obvious. The confusion about it took him by surprise. Therefore, any case based entirely on evidence introduced after the fact is almost certainly wrong.

Seriously, go read the Wheel of Time FAQ (http://www.siliconcerebrate.com/faqs/WOTFAQ/0_admin/0.01_intro.html). It has a whole section devoted to Asmodean's death (http://www.siliconcerebrate.com/faqs/WOTFAQ/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.6_asmo.html).

Personally, I think Lanfear did it. She had the means and the motive in plenty, Asmodean would have recognized her instantly, and her disappearance with Moiraine was sufficiently ambiguous about what actually happened to immediately make alert readers think she may not actually be gone.

[Anteros]

Well, I did do a little research. Apparently RJ almost directly admitted it was Graendal in an interview.

Here is the link if anyone wants it. But beware of spoilers. http://www.cnn.com/chat/transcripts/2000/12/12/jordan/index.html

[mangosta71]

Personally, I think Lanfear did it. She had the means and the motive in plenty, Asmodean would have recognized her instantly, and her disappearance with Moiraine was sufficiently ambiguous about what actually happened to immediately make alert readers think she may not actually be gone.

Except there's significant evidence that Lanfear was reincarnated as Cyndane. She would have had to die for that to happen, and the only time that could have happened is when she and Moiraine went through the door unless it happened somewhere offstage (not likely, given her importance). Asmodean's encounter occurred after that. Which means that even if Lanfear had already been raised, he would not have recognized her.

Yes, I realize that even with a common origin, distinctions arise over time. However, with the Aes Sedai still running all over the place trying to hold things together, there would have been fairly constant interaction among the differing groups. The interaction is the only way any common system could have survived. In your example of the Slavs - how much contact did they have with each other after they splintered? How advanced was their society at the time of their diaspora? More to the point, how would you explain the common beliefs and language of the WoT world?

[The_Snark]

And you? You buy "common origin," despite all real life evidence to the contrary. GWurh... Glak...

SLAVOPHILE RAAAAAAAAAGGGEEEEEE!!!!

It isn't quite the same, though. On the matter of language, there wasn't simply one common origin followed by a period of separation—there were three periods of separation, followed by unifying events of one kind or another.

In between the Breaking and the Trolloc Wars, things are still pretty advanced; people can remember their common heritage during the Age of Legends, and trade and travel is probably very commonplace. There would still be some drifting apart, of course, but we're looking at Renaissance-era cultures, maybe.

Cue the Trolloc Wars, which wipes large amounts of the population off the map. The surviving nations spread out into the reclaimed territory once it's done with, and we have fairly similar cultures again. Another thousand years of drifting apart passes, and cue... Artur Hawkwing's continent-spanning empire, taking those beloved cultural differences that have arisen and stamping them into the ground. Forcibly standardizing culture simply doesn't work very well, of course, but the fact is that during his (fairly long) reign, all of the various areas had a lot of contact with all of the others. The war that ensued gives a whole new set of nations, most of which are a random blend of previous nations and cultures based on which rulers could grab what land.

And then there's the White Tower, and its three thousand years of meddling with everybody evenhandedly; I imagine they wouldn't much care for lingual barriers. It might not be completely realistic to have everyone speak the same language, especially in the case of the Aiel, but it's not the same case as with Slavic and Romance languages. And it's a lot easier on the narrative.

Tthe religion part of it is more easily explainable. The evil antithesis part of the religion is very tangible, owning maybe a third to a quarter of the known world, and it's constantly in a state of low-grade war with the countries next to it. Sure, some people who don't live nearby don't believe, and there are some dogmatic differences (compare Tar Valon with Amadicia), but rather than looking at real-world religious beliefs, it might be better to look at the proportion of people who believe the Apollo moon landings were a hoax.

Or rather, given the generally bad effects of saying the Dark One's name, the proportion of people who would believe the Apollo moon landings were a hoax if the government sent burly men in suits to break their knees every time they voiced this belief.

Back to the main topic, I'm in agreement with the people who said this ought to be a (not-so-)miniseries; I've even flipped through the first book with a mind to how one would divide the episodes, and it works pretty neatly. It might be tricky with later books, but it would be even harder as a movie. It just doesn't seem to work in movie format.

Ah, well; my guess is that it's not actually going to get made.

[Philistine]

Ah, well; my guess is that it's not actually going to get made.

"This," as the kids say.

Universal has the rights to make a movie based on WoT. They don't have a cast, to start shooting. They don't have a director, to start picking the cast. They don't have a script, to start trolling for a director. They don't have a writer, to start working on a script.

It's going to be years before an actual movie results from this deal, if it happens at all.

[Gavin Sage]

Well, I did do a little research. Apparently RJ almost directly admitted it was Graendal in an interview.

Here is the link if anyone wants it. But beware of spoilers. http://www.cnn.com/chat/transcripts/2000/12/12/jordan/index.html

I believe I know the incident, and it strikes people more as reiterating his standard answer of "What isn't it obvious you guys, c'mon I thought it was real clear" that only sounds like an admission because of a sneaky question to begin with.

Its covered in the FAQ linked to up the page. Not that this slows down the --------- faction a bit




Yes, I realize that even with a common origin, distinctions arise over time. However, with the Aes Sedai still running all over the place trying to hold things together, there would have been fairly constant interaction among the differing groups. The interaction is the only way any common system could have survived. In your example of the Slavs - how much contact did they have with each other after they splintered? How advanced was their society at the time of their diaspora? More to the point, how would you explain the common beliefs and language of the WoT world?

I think it is worth pointing out that the Seanchan imported their language from Randland with the growth of the empire. That covers the hardest to explain end, and we don't know about Shara. For Randland itself, starting from a common language with a lot of trade between nations and a tradition of say print, reading, and generally better then medieval education.... works close enough for a Trope older then Tolkien.


Now the common religion ties more into a sort of philosophical point about the structure of the WoT. People believe in the Creator and the Dark One, because its essentially long established fact passed down from the ages. I'd note in our world how we haven't exactly had a major religion spring up in the past thousand years. And for that matter if you combined the only ones with large global followings (Christianity, Islam, Buddhism) you could get something rather close to the state of a affairs in Randland.

(And of course Jordan didn't want to make a novel about religion, thus plays it soft like Tolkien. You can read LOTR without knowing that Tolkien was a devout Christian who supposedly brought C.S. Lewis into the flock. Nobody cries out for God to save them in LOTR, but its also the influence of Christianity is pretty clear if one wishes to look. Given that I find genuine portrayals of religion are fairly rare I actually rank this approach quite highly)

[Rare Pink Leech]

ugh....

Is all I will say on that theory

Agreed.

In one of the books (Book 6, I believe) the Dark One told Demandred that both Rahvin and Asmodean had "died the final death", which means balefire. Besides, RJ said in interviews that Asmodean was dead and not coming back. Nice try, though.


I believe I know the incident, and it strikes people more as reiterating his standard answer of "What isn't it obvious you guys, c'mon I thought it was real clear" that only sounds like an admission because of a sneaky question to begin with.

Its covered in the FAQ linked to up the page. Not that this slows down the --------- faction a bit


Also agreed. I think RJ was just ignoring the stupid part.

More stuff regarding this incident:

So, apparently RJ said sometime before he died that he would ultimately reveal the killer, either in Book 12 or just by telling fans. Brandon Sanderson also intends to reveal the killer in Book 12. So I guess we only have a little while longer before the killer is finally revealed. Here are the articles I used for info in this post:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asmodean
http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.6_asmo.html

[Telonius]

Could be some truth to this. I started reading the series when I was 13. I'm 25 now. :|

I gave up after book 10. I bought the blasted thing in hardcover, and was treated to a $20 paperweight. Seriously, it was the single worst book I've ever read, made worse by the fact that I'd waited three years to get it. Nothing happened. Reading the Wikipedia plot summary could have saved me time and money. I was so disgusted I gave up on the series, and will not read the last two books, ever, until I receive a refund for my book from his publisher or descendants.

That said, if they concentrate on the first few books (where his writing was best) the movie should have a lot of good material to work from.

[MammonAzrael]

I haven't read the entire thread, so apologies if I repeat.

I cannot see this as being a good idea. I am a fan of the books, and while I could easily understand removal of minor characters and scenes, and other various cuts movies get, the simply fact is that the book are too large to be shrunk down into even an unreasonably long movie. Look at LotR, with each book a third to half the length of a WoT book, the movies still turned out incredibly long, and people still complained about missing characters.

the only way I could see WoT being successful in the motion picture world would be a TV show, one book per season, with all the attention and care of a blockbuster movie. It would be easier animated, but it's always possible to find a mind-blowing cast of actors for RL (though difficult).

In fact, wasn't it recently announced that ASoIaF will be seeing a TV show?

[Gavin Sage]

I gave up after book 10. I bought the blasted thing in hardcover, and was treated to a $20 paperweight. Seriously, it was the single worst book I've ever read, made worse by the fact that I'd waited three years to get it. Nothing happened. Reading the Wikipedia plot summary could have saved me time and money. I was so disgusted I gave up on the series, and will not read the last two books, ever, until I receive a refund for my book from his publisher or descendants.

That said, if they concentrate on the first few books (where his writing was best) the movie should have a lot of good material to work from.

Wow that's kinda sad you know. :smallconfused:

I mean seriously check if your local library has Knife of Dreams and then read without buying. I mean its clearly book 10 is the least book in the series, but cripes if you got that that far you should at least finish the series.

I hate A Feast for Crows in ASoFaI but I'm not giving up on the whole series. And it wastes more time then WoT does. Heck I think Jim Butcher is the only writer I've read thus far that hasn't had a dip in quality between books.

[Rare Pink Leech]

Telonius, I'm going to echo what Gavin Sage said. Get Knife of Dreams from the library, and give it a try. In my opinion it more than makes up for Crossroads of Twilight, and getting it at the library won't cost you anything. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

[The_Snark]

I gave up after book 10. I bought the blasted thing in hardcover, and was treated to a $20 paperweight. Seriously, it was the single worst book I've ever read, made worse by the fact that I'd waited three years to get it. Nothing happened. Reading the Wikipedia plot summary could have saved me time and money. I was so disgusted I gave up on the series, and will not read the last two books, ever, until I receive a refund for my book from his publisher or descendants.

The problem with book 10 was that it was half a book, and was concluded in book 11. I'll echo the others by saying that if you ever find yourself without something to read, you could pick 11 up at the library. It resolves pretty much all the plotlines that book 10 did not. It actually puts me in mind of a rubber band, which for the duration of book 10 is stretched... and stretched... and stretched out some more, and then the book ends with that rubber band still stretched...

... and then in book 11 the rubber band is allowed to snap back. The analogy, confusing as it may be, feels apt to me, because the book moves fast. Crossroads of Twilight could have been vastly improved, I feel, by taking some of the resolutions from Knife of Dreams and using them early; regardless, it makes for a fairly satisfying book 11.

[Philistine]

The "half a book" thing has really been the case for quite a while now, IMO. I wasn't surprised at Book 10's "incompleteness," because I'd been more or less expecting it since before #9 came out.

The first five books each ended with a confrontation between Rand and one or more Forsaken. They also got progressively longer. Book 6 was the first book to be shorter than the one before it, and it did not end as the previous volumes did... and then Book 7 started up at a point in the story chronologically before the end of #6 (on a different storyline), and #7 did finish up with Rand facing a Forsaken. So I believe that the material in #7 was originally intended to be the last 1/3 or so of #6.

Mat doesn't make an appearance in Book 8 at all, so it can hardly be seen as a "complete" entry in the series on its own... and it also does not end with a Rand vs. Forsaken set piece. Book 9 picks up Mat's storyline again but largely drops Perrin, and it ends with the largest One Power battle seen in the series yet. I think the material in these two books was originally intended to comprise a single volume.

Then we have Book 10, which is... well, it's Book 10. Book 11 is a huge improvement over #10, and in fact on most of the previous 5 books, if only because some of the longstanding plot threads are finally resolved. Between them #10 and #11 probably constitute a worthy series entry, except for two niggling details.

First: while #11 does have a Forsaken encounter, it's 3/4 of the way through the book and quite obviously not the climax. Second: long, long ago, the series was planned as 8 books; this was later expanded to 12. If #6 and #7 combined comprise the content of the planned #6; and the actual books #8 and #9 represent the planned volume #7; then the material originally intended for the final book must be split among numbers 10, 11, and 12.

A lot of the above came to me during the wait between #8 (which was so obviously incomplete that everyone with whom I discussed the book mentioned it) and #9. This started me looking back through the earlier books specifically for something along these lines. I couldn't be certain then that #9 would in fact finish off that "volume" of the series, of course, but it seemed likely - and sure enough, #9 structurally did just what I expected, including the big Forsaken showdown at the end. And then #10 came out, and that book is what it is; and #11 came out, and that one is what it is; and if #12 ends the series as planned then it'll go up to the Last Battle, which I expect to be the biggest One Power throwdown in the Age.

*********

So, the tl;dr version: as best I can tell, every entry in the series from #6 on has been "incomplete."

[Helanna]

The biggest problem with all this is that the entire series is actually one book. To paraphrase from . . . someone, somewhere: "The only reason the books are split up is because nobody wants a book that takes up an entire shelf."

You really can't judge a single book from the series, because it's not complete. You can say that nothing happened in book 10, but book 11 wouldn't be possible without it.

And really, I can see how it would be annoying to wait three years for a $20 book in which nothing actually gets accomplished, giving up the entire series? After all that, shouldn't you at least finish off the last 2 books?

This might all be different for me - not only did I start reading after book 11 was released, I cannot even understand the concept of "not having time" to read. I know I have more extra time than usual, but it's still completely alien to me. My mom uses that excuse when I give her a book to read. She's a liar, I know exactly how much time she has. :smallfurious:

[averagejoe]

You really can't judge a single book from the series, because it's not complete. You can say that nothing happened in book 10, but book 11 wouldn't be possible without it.

Yes you can. In fact, inside any single book I can say, "This chapter was really annoying," or even, "This sentence was really annoying." Book 11 would not have been possible without book 10, but the setup certainly could have been more satisfying and entertaining, and there's no reason stuff could not have happened. As far as I'm concerned his prologues could be cut entirely-they don't add anything, and never go anywhere-and that gives you a whole 100+ extra pages right there, at least in the later books. (On a side note, I'm not entirely convinced that Jordan knows what a prologue is.) The fact that book eleven was marginally better than some other books in the series-better mainly because stuff actually happened-it doesn't excuse the badness of previous books.

[Anteros]

But the fact remains that the series is written to be read as a single compilation. Just because you have issues with the pacing does not mean that the book was not written well. It means that you're not reading it in the manner that the author intended. To quote a popular internet meme, "You're doing it wrong."

Now, whether what the author is intending to do is good or bad is another thing entirely, and up for debate.

[averagejoe]

But the fact remains that the series is written to be read as a single compilation. Just because you have issues with the pacing does not mean that the book was not written well. It means that you're not reading it in the manner that the author intended.

Now, whether what the author is intending to do is good or bad is another thing entirely, and up for debate.

Actually I read book ten, then I read book eleven right afterward. Seriously, the library is, like, two blocks from my house. However, it wouldn't have mattered if I had read ten when it came out; it still would have been a bloody boring waste of time which I only got through because, damn it, I had already invested enough time in the series, and I should get some reward.

Pacing is one of the skills involved in writing. If you can't pace well then you pretty much are a bad writer.

[Shogun]

I liked the WOT books until they became similar in resolution to a day time soap opera. I stopped reading them at book 9 and refused to finish it until he finished the series. Then he went the way of Frank Herbert. However, I cannot possibly fathom how a movie would do the story justice.

[Telonius]

Actually I read book ten, then I read book eleven right afterward. Seriously, the library is, like, two blocks from my house. However, it wouldn't have mattered if I had read ten when it came out; it still would have been a bloody boring waste of time which I only got through because, damn it, I had already invested enough time in the series, and I should get some reward.

Pacing is one of the skills involved in writing. If you can't pace well then you pretty much are a bad writer.

That's actually one of the big things that I took away from the book. I'm an aspiring writer myself. That hardcover is still on my shelf, right next to my favorite books. I want to remember how I felt - angry, cheated, and a little betrayed - so that I never do something like that to any readers I might eventually have.

I should also probably have this in poster format, from Mark Twain.


There are nineteen rules governing literary art in domain of romantic fiction -- some say twenty-two. In "Deerslayer," Cooper violated eighteen of them. These eighteen require:

1. That a tale shall accomplish something and arrive somewhere...

2. They require that the episodes in a tale shall be necessary parts of the tale, and shall help to develop it...

3. They require that the personages in a tale shall be alive, except in the case of corpses, and that always the reader shall be able to tell the corpses from the others...

4. They require that the personages in a tale, both dead and alive, shall exhibit a sufficient excuse for being there...

5. They require that when the personages of a tale deal in conversation, the talk shall sound like human talk, and be talk such as human beings would be likely to talk in the given circumstances, and have a discoverable meaning, also a discoverable purpose, and a show of relevancy, and remain in the neighborhood of the subject at hand, and be interesting to the reader, and help out the tale, and stop when the people cannot think of anything more to say...

6. They require that when the author describes the character of a personage in the tale, the conduct and conversation of that personage shall justify said description...

7. They require that when a personage talks like an illustrated, gilt-edged, tree-calf, hand-tooled, seven- dollar Friendship's Offering in the beginning of a paragraph, he shall not talk like a [redacted for forum rules] minstrel in the end of it...

8. They require that crass stupidities shall not be played upon the reader as "the craft of the woodsman, the delicate art of the forest," by either the author or the people in the tale...

9. They require that the personages of a tale shall confine themselves to possibilities and let miracles alone; or, if they venture a miracle, the author must so plausibly set it forth as to make it look possible and reasonable...

10. They require that the author shall make the reader feel a deep interest in the personages of his tale and in their fate; and that he shall make the reader love the good people in the tale and hate the bad ones...

11. They require that the characters in a tale shall be so clearly defined that the reader can tell beforehand what each will do in a given emergency...

In addition to these large rules, there are some little ones. These require that the author shall:

12. Say what he is proposing to say, not merely come near it.
13. Use the right word, not its second cousin.
14. Eschew surplusage.
15. Not omit necessary details.
16. Avoid slovenliness of form.
17. Use good grammar.
18. Employ a simple and straightforward style.

[averagejoe]

3. They require that the personages in a tale shall be alive, except in the case of corpses, and that always the reader shall be able to tell the corpses from the others...

You know, whatever you say about his writing, Twain was just an awesome guy.

[Helanna]

Do they sell posters of that? Because if they don't - well, could I start selling them? I visit a couple of forums (http://www.nanowrimo.org)where I could make a ton of money off those . . .


9. They require that the personages of a tale shall confine themselves to possibilities and let miracles alone; or, if they venture a miracle, the author must so plausibly set it forth as to make it look possible and reasonable...


LOVE this one. No Dues ex Machina for you!


11. They require that the characters in a tale shall be so clearly defined that the reader can tell beforehand what each will do in a given emergency...

Also this one, and a couple others that basically say "Characters are people, treat them as such."

[Anteros]

Actually I read book ten, then I read book eleven right afterward. Seriously, the library is, like, two blocks from my house. However, it wouldn't have mattered if I had read ten when it came out; it still would have been a bloody boring waste of time which I only got through because, damn it, I had already invested enough time in the series, and I should get some reward.

Pacing is one of the skills involved in writing. If you can't pace well then you pretty much are a bad writer.

No. See, because there are also other important skills that make a good writer. You can have pacing issues and still be an excellent writer because you can be good at the other skills. In your opinion Jordan is a bad writer. Several million people worldwide, myself included, disagree.

Telonius, Perhaps you could now express which of those rules Mr. Jordan broke?

[averagejoe]

No. See, because there are also other important skills that make a good writer. You can have pacing issues and still be an excellent writer because you can be good at the other skills. In your opinion Jordan is a bad writer. Several million people worldwide, myself included, disagree.

RPG's are really stupid; several million people worldwide, certainly more than those who think the contrary, think this way. Therefore this proves that RPG's are stupid.

There are other skills that make a writer. However, Jordan has no strengths which might compensate for his pacing problems, like entertaining dialogue or good prose. These things could compensate because they can keep the story entertaining during the dry bits; however, he is deficient here too. In fact, Jordan really doesn't have any overwhelming strengths as a writer.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to dissuade you from reading the books. They can, to some people, be entertaining despite their flaws, and this is where matters like taste and opinion come in. However, Jordan is not, by any standard, a particularly good writer, and the case can be made that he's a pretty bad one. I don't care if everyone else in the world disagrees; it doesn't make them right.

[Gavin Sage]

The "half a book" thing has really been the case for quite a while now, IMO. I wasn't surprised at Book 10's "incompleteness," because I'd been more or less expecting it since before #9 came out.

The first five books each ended with a confrontation between Rand and one or more Forsaken. They also got progressively longer. Book 6 was the first book to be shorter than the one before it, and it did not end as the previous volumes did... and then Book 7 started up at a point in the story chronologically before the end of #6 (on a different storyline), and #7 did finish up with Rand facing a Forsaken. So I believe that the material in #7 was originally intended to be the last 1/3 or so of #6.

[QUOTE]Mat doesn't make an appearance in Book 8 at all, so it can hardly be seen as a "complete" entry in the series on its own... and it also does not end with a Rand vs. Forsaken set piece. Book 9 picks up Mat's storyline again but largely drops Perrin, and it ends with the largest One Power battle seen in the series yet. I think the material in these two books was originally intended to comprise a single volume.

Perring wasn't in Book 5, at all.

Most characters have major gaps in their appearences. Loial is a big supporting character and he was gone for multiple books in a row. Heck even Rand is hardly in books 3 and 10. Okay he's still a major player in the latter, but given that its the only book named after him this is rather ironic. The only characters I'm prepared to say appear in all books are Rand, Elayne, and Min. With the latter two only by a one chapter bit part apiece.

I don't think appearences is a good standard to judge completeness by. I think each book except ten is fairly complete, just the story focus shifts in a way that doesn't allow for a smaller scale. Okay one can argue that it could be made shorter, but this would entail essentially rewriting the books from the ground up. You cannot edit them down to less books without reworking the plot, the effects of which would spread like Callandor throwing balefire.

(And book 10 I think we've established a solution, its switch out stuff from book 11)



First: while #11 does have a Forsaken encounter, it's 3/4 of the way through the book and quite obviously not the climax.

I think you're a bit over focused on Forsaken battles. A theme of the latter half of the series is a deliberate shift away from those sorts of heroics. The latter half of the series is the world adapting to massive changes wrought upon it by the End being nigh, and Rand's story is becomes one of more personal struggle to deal with a world that won't be shaped merely by ta'veren fiat.

The Forsaken are also ordered to step back from throwing themselves at Rand too.


Second: long, long ago, the series was planned as 8 books; this was later expanded to 12.

Wrap ya mind around it originally being planned as a trilogy. Since that's what the original plan was. Or at least I've seen that said more commonly



So, the tl;dr version: as best I can tell, every entry in the series from #6 on has been "incomplete."

Well I'd agree the books have stretched longer then the original plan I don't think this is quite what you seem to be saying. There's some seams from a smaller plan that show up early in the books. Namely Mat loosing an eye, which stopped being foreshadowed fairly early on.

That said I don't think you could tell many of the plotlines in a smaller scale story. I'm talking about stuff as important as the Seanchan and Asha'man plots even. Okay there might be ways, but they would not be the same books and not even nessecarily better books. The story isn't stretched, it simply expands at an almost exponential rate.

[Anteros]

RPG's are really stupid; several million people worldwide, certainly more than those who think the contrary, think this way. Therefore this proves that RPG's are stupid.

There are other skills that make a writer. However, Jordan has no strengths which might compensate for his pacing problems, like entertaining dialogue or good prose. These things could compensate because they can keep the story entertaining during the dry bits; however, he is deficient here too. In fact, Jordan really doesn't have any overwhelming strengths as a writer.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to dissuade you from reading the books. They can, to some people, be entertaining despite their flaws, and this is where matters like taste and opinion come in. However, Jordan is not, by any standard, a particularly good writer, and the case can be made that he's a pretty bad one. I don't care if everyone else in the world disagrees; it doesn't make them right.

Yes it does. It's exactly what makes them right. I'm so sick of this "individualism" crap creeping into everything. I'm sorry, but your opinion doesn't outweigh that of millions of people who continue to buy his books simply because you believe in a certain set of intangible standards that a large portion of people could not care less about. Things like writing or art are not like a math equation where you can say "this is wrong because he messed up at this particular point."

What's good quality or bad quality is determined by the audience. I don't care if you can come up with an infinite list of things wrong with his works, if everyone else thinks that they are good then they is good. This is because an author's primary purpose is to appeal to his audience. It's painfully obvious that Jordan does this successfully. That makes him a good writer regardless what you think.

It's true that millions of people dislike RPGs. However, it's also true that millions of other people like them. A good author's work does not have to appeal to everyone, or even to most people. It simply needs to appeal to a good portion of the population. RPGs obviously do this, and so does Robert Jordan.

[Telonius]

Telonius, Perhaps you could now express which of those rules Mr. Jordan broke?

Bear in mind it has been five years since I've read any of it. A lot of these are repeat offenses, and I'll just list the worst ones.

1. Guilty. Book 10.
2. Guilty. Massive chunks of the series. Nearly all of Book 10, and also large swathes of Elayne's royal politics.
3. Guilty. I occasionally forgot which of the Forsaken were still alive. I think that's understandable, since it would go for hundreds of pages between mentioning them.
4. Guilty. Far too many to mention here. Probably 75% of the supporting cast didn't need to be there. (Tolkien had a huge problem with this one as well, but his strengths more than made up for it).
5. Not guilty. I give him a pass on this one. It's fantasy literature, after all; the genre expects it.
6. Undecided. Hit and miss. Mat was a hit; Perrin was a miss.
7. Undecided. Again, hit and miss; though much of this can be chalked up to characters talking differently in official as opposed to private settings.
8. Not guilty. I didn't remember any of these offhand. This probably means he did a good enough job of making tracking and woodcraft seem plausible at least.
9. Not guilty. He followed this one pretty well. There are "miracles," but it's a magical world.
10. Guilty. He followed this in the first few books. By the last few books, I'll echo Twain's critique: "But the reader of the "Deerslayer" tale dislikes the good people in it, is indifferent to the others, and wishes they would all get drowned together." The notable exception was Mat, but I'm always a sucker for a magnificent bastard.
11. Undecided. Some are. Most aren't. Mat, Lan, and Nynaeve are consistent. Not many others are. Rand and Perrin, particularly not; although Rand at least has some excuse, since he is going insane. Note that a consistent character can be a dynamic character. Mat is an example of this. He changes and learns things, but he stays Mat. Perrin's whole characterization changes completely between the first part of the series and the last.
12. Not guilty. I don't remember any point where he obviously used the wrong word to describe something.
13. Not guilty, if only because he uses so many words.
14. Guilty. Anyone who thinks the books couldn't deal with some massive cuts is deluding themselves. Fail.
15. Not guilty. He errs (very much) on the side of too much detail.
16. Undecided. Some phrases are over-used. Otherwise, okay.
17. Not guilty.
18. Guilty. He talks circles around the points he tries to make.

My tally: 7 guilty, 7 not guilty, 4 undecided.

[Anteros]

I guess it's largely a matter of opinion. Most of the points you made here I actually disagree with. For example, I find most of the characters likable (Well, not Nynaeve.) and I think that Rand and Perrin stay pretty much the same characters throughout. (Too much so in the case of Perrin. I'm just bored with him by the end of the books.)

[freerangetroll]

Yes it does. It's exactly what makes them right. I'm so sick of this "individualism" crap creeping into everything. I'm sorry, but your opinion doesn't outweigh that of millions of people who continue to buy his books simply because you believe in a certain set of intangible standards that a large portion of people could not care less about. Things like writing or art are not like a math equation where you can say "this is wrong because he messed up at this particular point."

What's good quality or bad quality is determined by the audience. I don't care if you can come up with an infinite list of things wrong with his works, if everyone else thinks that they are good then they is good. This is because an author's primary purpose is to appeal to his audience. It's painfully obvious that Jordan does this successfully. That makes him a good writer regardless what you think.

It's true that millions of people dislike RPGs. However, it's also true that millions of other people like them. A good author's work does not have to appeal to everyone, or even to most people. It simply needs to appeal to a good portion of the population. RPGs obviously do this, and so does Robert Jordan.

So by your definition Aragon and the Twilight series are good word crafting?

[averagejoe]

Yes it does. It's exactly what makes them right. I'm so sick of this "individualism" crap creeping into everything. I'm sorry, but your opinion doesn't outweigh that of millions of people who continue to buy his books simply because you believe in a certain set of intangible standards that a large portion of people could not care less about. Things like writing or art are not like a math equation where you can say "this is wrong because he messed up at this particular point."

What's good quality or bad quality is determined by the audience. I don't care if you can come up with an infinite list of things wrong with his works, if everyone else thinks that they are good then they is good. This is because an author's primary purpose is to appeal to his audience. It's painfully obvious that Jordan does this successfully. That makes him a good writer regardless what you think.

What individualism crap? If I can't believe in myself, who can I believe in? Are you saying I should completely abandon what is the result of careful thought just because everyone else disagrees, despite the fact that I'm given no reason other than their overwhelming numbers to change my opinion. If everyone told you that there were no sequels written beyond The Eye of the World would you simply throw away the evidence of your eyes and mind without question? Individualism crap indeed. (A quick aside: this is pretty much hypothetical, as were my previous statements. Lots of people agree with me on this; I'm in good company, so this is hardly individualistic anyways. I was only trying to point out the irrelevancy and the incorrectness of your statements about numbers of people.)

What's good quality is determined by the audience; however, as you have said, the majority of the audience isn't interested in quality, only the entertainment value of the piece, so they're not exactly fit to judge anyways. Again, this is fine. There's nothing wrong with that. However, that's not the same as quality.

My dad kept a drawing of mine on his wall for years. I made it when I was five(ish), and you know what, I was a crap drawer then. Dad couldn't care less; he loved the picture anyways. However, he (being a rational person) wouldn't admit that it's a quality drawing. He has his own reasons for liking it, separate from the quality.

You can make the case that the books are entertaining; you can make the case that they are fun to read. However that is, ultimately, the bit that is opinion. You have not, however, said a word about the actual quality of the works, beyond saying that tons of people think that they are good writing. (A falsehood. I submit that most people who enjoy the books think very little about the actual writing quality. Again, and for the third time, this is fine; not everyone enjoys craftsmanship, and not everybody should. However, craftsmanship is something that should be recognized.)


It's true that millions of people dislike RPGs. However, it's also true that millions of other people like them. A good author's work does not have to appeal to everyone, or even to most people. It simply needs to appeal to a good portion of the population. RPGs obviously do this, and so does Robert Jordan.

So you're saying that a quality writer (or, indeed, a quality anything) is defined as something that enough people like. How many does it take? Is one hundred people liking it not quality, but one hundred one people liking it quality? Why don't the opinions of the people who don't like it count? Is dislike less valid than like? If so, why?

You know what appeals to a good portion of the population? Pretty much anything. So everything is quality and therefore quality is a meaningless concept?

[Anteros]

What individualism crap? If I can't believe in myself, who can I believe in?

I was referring to your earlier statement that went along the lines of "I don't care if everyone in the world disagrees, it doesn't make them right." Because, it does make them right. With writing we're not judging whether or not something meets a certain set of standards because there are no standards to judge it by. Literally the only standard you can apply to a fictional work by is whether or not it is entertaining. This is because these works serve literally no purpose other than to entertain. As long as the book remains entertaining, then Jordan is a successful and good writer, no matter how many of your imaginary rules he breaks.

Obviously I admit that there are certain styles to writing and pacing that people generally find more entertaining than others. However, if an author deviates from these styles and still manages to entertain, then he has done his job successfully. These styles are guidelines, not rules.

As for the rest of your statement, it really doesn't contradict what I said at all. Of course there is information in existence that we can judge the veracity of by examining set standards and rules. However, there are many things you can not. Such as art, or writing. You seem to draw some distinction between the quality of a piece and the entertainment value. This is a fallacy, because the only quality that a fictional piece of literature may possess is whether or not it is entertaining. As long as it meets this one purpose, not one other thing matters.

[averagejoe]

As for the rest of your statement, it really doesn't contradict what I said at all.

I'm beginning to doubt that you're listening very much. My last two paragraphs in particular dealt directly with this idea you have that popularity=quality. To respond to your statement that, "there are many things you can not [judge by a certain set of rules]. Such as art, or writing." What can I say, other than that I have and did judge his writings by a set of rules, and you haven't responded directly to this at all except to give a rather more verbose "nuh uh." Because of these two things I honestly have reservations about continuing to respond, as I don't see the point. However, I'll give it at least one more try.


This is a fallacy, because the only quality that a fictional piece of literature may possess is whether or not it is entertaining.

I ask again, why do the people who find it entertaining have more valid opinions than those who don't? Shouldn't this mean that a lack of quality is indicated by people who find it not entertaining? Doesn't this mean that a book is of poor quality if one million people enjoyed it but a million and one people didn't?

Also, how do you account for people who find quality to be entertaining. If your statement is true, than the previous statement means that I only like books that are popular; however, I find this is rarely the case.

[Anteros]

I'm beginning to doubt that you're listening very much. My last two paragraphs in particular dealt directly with this idea you have that popularity=quality. To respond to your statement that, "there are many things you can not [judge by a certain set of rules]. Such as art, or writing." What can I say, other than that I have and did judge his writings by a set of rules, and you haven't responded directly to this at all except to give a rather more verbose "nuh uh." Because of these two things I honestly have reservations about continuing to respond, as I don't see the point. However, I'll give it at least one more try.



I ask again, why do the people who find it entertaining have more valid opinions than those who don't? Shouldn't this mean that a lack of quality is indicated by people who find it not entertaining? Doesn't this mean that a book is of poor quality if one million people enjoyed it but a million and one people didn't?

Also, how do you account for people who find quality to be entertaining. If your statement is true, than the previous statement means that I only like books that are popular; however, I find this is rarely the case.

Of course you can judge things by whatever standards you want. And on a personal level that's fine. However, when you're trying to perform an objective review on a form of entertainment, you need to look at a broader picture. There is a huge difference between "I didn't like it" and "no one should read them ever" as was stated on this thread earlier. When you state that Jordan is "not, by any standard, a particularly good writer" you are leaving the realm of opinion and making a statement that the facts we have directly dispute.

The reason that I give enjoying something more weight than not enjoying it is that people are diverse. It's inevitable that more people will dislike or be uninterested in something than will like it. However, if a large number of people do like something, then we can safely assume that the writer was successful in appealing to a large portion of his or her audience. This is his only job. There will always be more people who dislike, or just don't care about a work than like it, perhaps with the exception of a few classic pieces of work. However, one does not need to produce a classic in order to be a good writer of fiction. He needs merely to appeal to a large number of people. Stating that you personally dislike an author's work because he does not follow certain precepts that you have of what good writing should be proves nothing whatsoever other than the fact that your opinion of what is good is different from other people.

There exists no set of universally accepted standards by which to judge works of fiction other than entertainment value, because the only reason for their existance is to entertain. Thus we are forced to look at a work's general popularity in order to objectively quantify its quality. As Jordan has clearly been wildly successful at achieving his only objective (to entertain) We clearly can not say that he is a bad writer. We certainly may say that he uses a different style than most good writers use, but we may not say that his writing is bad.

[Helanna]

So what I *think* Anteros was saying (and correct me if I'm wrong), is that you (averagejoe) are stating "Robert Jordan is a bad writer because I don't like his style." Even though there are millions and millions of people who disagree, you're still acting like your opinion is better than theirs. What you apparently fail to realize is that quality itself is an opinion! Just look at modern art! You keep saying that only quality matters and popularity does not. How, then, do you define "quality"? For some, it's whether it's entertaining, for some, it's how it's written - but that's still subjective. I like the overly-descriptive prose, and I say it's good. But what of the people who dislike that and say that it's bad writing? Seeing as it's impossible to be truly objective, there's no way to agree on a set standard for 'quality' other than personal preference - or popularity.


Originally Posted by Anteros
I'm so sick of this "individualism" crap creeping into everything.


What individualism crap? If I can't believe in myself, who can I believe in?


So by your definition Aragon and the Twilight series are good word crafting?

I actually like Eragon. For me, it's worth reading. That's my individual stance. However, it doesn't make me right. The books are still crap and I know that. Just because I still enjoy reading them doesn't give me the right to unequivocally say "The books are good because I like them." Just like disliking a book doesn't give anyone the right to say "That book is bad and no one should read it." I would NEVER say that, because there is ALWAYS someone who will like it.

[Rare Pink Leech]

However, Jordan is not, by any standard, a particularly good writer, and the case can be made that he's a pretty bad one. I don't care if everyone else in the world disagrees; it doesn't make them right.

Yet just because you think so doesn't mean that you're right, at least in any objective sense. By your standard Jordan is not a particularly good writer, but that doesn't mean your standard is the only one, or even the most important or widely used standard. I've seen other people laud him for his writing.

Yes, the case can be made that he's a bad writer, but the same could be said for any writer, because every writer has their weaknesses or faults, and depending on what those faults are and how much you dislike those faults a writer can be anywhere from "unpolished" to "annoying" to "terrible". The case could also be made that he's a good writer. Saying that Jordan is not by any standard a particularly good writer is just as bad as saying that just because millions of people love and read him that he's automatically a good writer.

Anyway, I'm not trying to pick on you in particular. You just had a better quote for me to use to start what I wanted to say :smallwink: What I'm trying to get at here is everything everyone is arguing in this thread comes down to taste and opinion, both completely subjective. Nobody's going to convince anyone else otherwise, so arguing fervently one way or another about whether Jordan is a good writer or a bad writer only serves one purpose: raising your blood pressure :smallamused:

[mangosta71]

Help! Someone is trying to impose rationality on an internet message board! He must be stopped!

[averagejoe]

Look, quality isn't subjective, and it's silly to say so. If quality is subjective, then I can go out and buy a stack of printer paper, call it a novel, and it would be exactly as good as Wheel of Time, or any other book written ever. I could even claim to be a bestseller, considering how many people buy printer paper.


So what I *think* Anteros was saying (and correct me if I'm wrong), is that you (averagejoe) are stating "Robert Jordan is a bad writer because I don't like his style."

Actually you are wrong; that's not what I'm saying. In fact, I've been explicitly trying to underline the separation of quality and style. I mean, I don't like his style, as a matter of fact, but that isn't what makes him a bad writer. What I've been referring to an assessment of his writing skills, not my own opinions of his writing. There are good writers out there who I don't particularly care for. Quality of writing is something I look for in a novel; it's how I derive enjoyment from it. Not everyone, or even most people, look for this, and that's fine. I'm not saying not to enjoy the book, only that Jordan isn't particularly good at the craft of writing.


Yet just because you think so doesn't mean that you're right, at least in any objective sense.

I'm well aware of this. That wasn't an argument to convince anyone of the rightness of my point of view, but one to contradict the idea that numbers of people with a point of view=right point of view.


The case could also be made that he's a good writer.

So someone make the case instead of just telling me I'm wrong.


Nobody's going to convince anyone else otherwise, so arguing fervently one way or another about whether Jordan is a good writer or a bad writer only serves one purpose: raising your blood pressure

If other people are getting upset by this that's their affair, and I can't speak for them. I happen to enjoy a good discourse, and don't see any reason why it should make me upset. I've said it many times, I don't particularly care if anyone likes Jordan.

Also, thanks for the concern about singling me out; it didn't even occur to me to think that you were, but I appreciate it anyways. As I stated above, I don't really get riled up about this sort of thing.

[mangosta71]

What I've been referring to an assessment of his writing skills,

Is an assessment of someone's writing skills not subjective? It seems to me that the "rules" you quote are fairly arbitrary, and as you point out, a lot of people agreeing that they like them doesn't make them good. Even if lit teachers all over the world embrace them and teach them to students, it doesn't make them right. I learned plenty of false crap in high school that I had to unlearn when I got to college, and then I had further unlearning to do after I ventured into the real world.

[averagejoe]

Is an assessment of someone's writing skills not subjective? It seems to me that the "rules" you quote are fairly arbitrary, and as you point out, a lot of people agreeing that they like them doesn't make them good. Even if lit teachers all over the world embrace them and teach them to students, it doesn't make them right. I learned plenty of false crap in high school that I had to unlearn when I got to college, and then I had further unlearning to do after I ventured into the real world.

What rules have I been quoting? And, again, if it is entirely subjective then my blank piece of paper is exactly as skillful a piece of writing as anything.

[mangosta71]

What rules have I been quoting? And, again, if it is entirely subjective then my blank piece of paper is exactly as skillful a piece of writing as anything.

Oh, were you not the one that posted the list of the rules Mark Twain came up with? I'm too lazy to look back through the thread.

[The_Snark]

Look, quality isn't subjective, and it's silly to say so.

*snip*

I usually don't like to get involved in the occasional debates about individual opinion versus objective standards, but in this case, I think I should point out that yes, quality writing is subjective to the standard of the culture it's in. There is no mandate dating from the beginning of the universe (or of the written word) that This (this being any given set of standards) is Good writing, and This-2 (this-2 being something that doesn't live up to said standards) is Bad. Culture changes. The culture's idea of what makes writing good changes with it, which is why classics from different centuries are often different.

Now, whether Jordan is a good writer by modern standards is different. My opinion is that he's a fairly good writer. Certainly he has flaws, but he goes in for complex plots, lots of description, and

Part of this might be that I don't mind long books so much; I read rather fast most of the time. His pacing is definitely a flaw in places—I think I read an interview at one point where he mentioned that in book 10, he thought he'd try and start every point-of-view chapter on the same day, so they'd get the reaction to book 9's conclusion. He essentially finished by saying that it was sort of interesting to write that way, but that it also screwed up the pace of the book.

The scattered plot threads and change in style around the middle of the series is something I actually like. There are a million fantasy books out there where a small group of heroes singlehandedly save the world. There are some cases where the heroes are said to be bogged down in boring administrative work in the sequel, and gladly take the chance at another adventure to get away from it. Jordan has a small group of heroes saving the world, but they're doing it by shoving around the existing organizations. I read the books somewhat out of order, and unlike most people, I was actually less impressed with the Eye of the World (and to a lesser extent the second book too).

It felt like any other fantasy series with heroic adventures—fairly good ones, but nothing out of the ordinary. We have uncountable weird monsters that don't even have names (in the Blight), we have Nazgul-lookalikes and Orc-lookalikes, we have mysterious other worlds (Ways and Portal Stones) that are never mentioned before we see them and ominous, liquid magic, portentious dreams... it's not necessarily bad stuff, but it's not very eye-catching either.

Then we start quantifying everything. Magic is not a "can do everything" force; it has pretty specific limits. Those ominous dreams are explained. The Ways are explained. Liquid magic is... kinda dropped. It's a fantastic world, but it's becoming internally consistent. And so when Evil starts quietly breaking the rules again in later books, it's actually intimidating, not just "oh look, another ravening beast with mysterious powers."

I think it's those two things (fantasy heroes becoming active political figures, consistent world) that appeal to me most. The pacing has flaws (although length isn't a deterrent to me). The characterization is all right but not the main strength—some people seem to attack it unnecessarily; Nynaeve, Elayne, and Faile get a lot of abuse, but they've never annoyed me all that much, and I've rather enjoyed Rand's descent into madness. (And really, he is mad already. Just because it isn't destroy-the-world barking mad like the voice in his head* doesn't make him sane.) The description can go on for a while, but as I said earlier, length by itself doesn't bother me.

I enjoy the books, and I don't feel like reading them is a guilty pleasure, or like they're substandard books. They're alright books, with strengths and flaws. Not literary classics, not something everybody should read or like, but enjoyable to a lot of people and decent books.

*See?

[averagejoe]

Oh, were you not the one that posted the list of the rules Mark Twain came up with? I'm too lazy to look back through the thread.

I quoted one and commented on it, but that's just because I thought the wording was funny.


I usually don't like to get involved in the occasional debates about individual opinion versus objective standards, but in this case, I think I should point out that yes, quality writing is subjective to the standard of the culture it's in. There is no mandate dating from the beginning of the universe (or of the written word) that This (this being any given set of standards) is Good writing, and This-2 (this-2 being something that doesn't live up to said standards) is Bad. Culture changes. The culture's idea of what makes writing good changes with it, which is why classics from different centuries are often different.

Fair enough. Far be it from me to argue an objective universe. However, at the same time it doesn't really add anything to the discussion.


I enjoy the books, and I don't feel like reading them is a guilty pleasure, or like they're substandard books. They're alright books, with strengths and flaws. Not literary classics, not something everybody should read or like, but enjoyable to a lot of people and decent books.

Great. I'm happy for you. I am perfectly okay with someone thinking this, as I have said over and over.

[Somebloke]

The constant spanking would never make it past the censors.

And without the spanking, there is no plot.

[Stupendous_Man]

The constant spanking would never make it past the censors.

And without the spanking, there is no plot.

there is also braid tugging.

[The_Snark]

Fair enough. Far be it from me to argue an objective universe. However, at the same time it doesn't really add anything to the discussion.

This is true; it was just something that was bothering me.


Great. I'm happy for you. I am perfectly okay with someone thinking this, as I have said over and over.

I should maybe clarify that I was trying to defend Jordan's writing, without actually sounding too defensive. :smallredface: I really don't want to be defending something mindlessly just because I like it, and I think I've outlined things which I do think are merits. I wouldn't say he's a great writer, but I don't think it's fair to say the flaws in his writing make him a terrible writer. Possibly I just tend to be more easygoing when evaluating a book, but terrible is a pretty harsh description.


there is also braid tugging.

Oh dear, oh dear. Must... not... go off on rant about nervous habits...

[musicfreak313]

I thought you meant the remake of "Time Machine." I thought it was okay. Didn't like it as much as the original.

[averagejoe]

I wouldn't say he's a great writer, but I don't think it's fair to say the flaws in his writing make him a terrible writer. Possibly I just tend to be more easygoing when evaluating a book, but terrible is a pretty harsh description.

That's fair; I probably have been overstating things. I didn't mean to imply that his writing is entirely without merit, but as a writer I do find him to be a bit lazy, overly derivative, and gimmicky, and a lot of the time it feels like he's jerking his audience around just to accomplish... whatever it is that he hoped to accomplish.

Edit: What about the nervous habit thing? I'm curious.

[The_Snark]

Oh... that's something I've had personal experience with, so it irritates me when people seem to think Nynaeve's habit of tugging on her braid is unrealistic/annoying. She does it a lot, often without thinking about it. She doesn't see it as a problem when she notices herself doing it (nervous habits that a person genuinely dislikes tend to be broken sooner or later). Other people are periodically irritated by it, and she gets annoyed in return when they point it out because she feels it really isn't their business. This is a very realistic portrayal of a nervous habit. If it annoys some readers, that may be because they would be annoyed by the same behavior in real life.

Anyway, there's my tangential mini-rant, which I restrain every time somebody makes a joke about braid-tugging. Except this time.

[averagejoe]

Oh... that's something I've had personal experience with, so it irritates me when people seem to think Nynaeve's habit of tugging on her braid is unrealistic/annoying. She does it a lot, often without thinking about it. She doesn't see it as a problem when she notices herself doing it (nervous habits that a person genuinely dislikes tend to be broken sooner or later). Other people are periodically irritated by it, and she gets annoyed in return when they point it out because she feels it really isn't their business. This is a very realistic portrayal of a nervous habit. If it annoys some readers, that may be because they would be annoyed by the same behavior in real life.

Anyway, there's my tangential mini-rant, which I restrain every time somebody makes a joke about braid-tugging. Except this time.

I would tend to agree, except it seems like it's symptomatic of a larger problem with Jordan's work, and the way he seems to have only a few actions that people perform and uses them over and over. The braid thing alone isn't annoying-and I even tend to find it less annoying than the others, just because it's an idiosyncrasy particular to Nynaeve-but it's something that Jordan does a lot, with more than just nervous habits. This isn't a huge thing for me, but it did bug me when I was reading the later books.

[The_Snark]

Yeah, I'll concede that one. A few mannerisms (mostly sniffing and arm-crossing) get used a lot, and since they're not specific to one person they can't really be seen as that person's mannerisms.

[mangosta71]

Don't forget plucking at skirts and raising eyebrows.

[Anteros]

That's not entirely fair though. Things like crossing one's arms or raising one's eyebrows are fairly universally accepted ways to express surprise or displeasure. I will concede that Jordan would benefit from expanding the ways his characters show emotion, but they are very common traits, and are very noticable to those watching the scene. Other things, such as Rand thumbing his earlobe when watching a pretty woman are much less common and obvious and subsequently get much less use.

As to my earlier argument, other people have made the point I was trying to make, and probably better than I was doing anyway. I think we should just agree to disagree on it Averagejoe as it seems that you and I could circle this topic forever and never agree.

[Gavin Sage]

Bear in mind it has been five years since I've read any of it. A lot of these are repeat offenses, and I'll just list the worst ones.

1. Guilty. Book 10.


1. That a tale shall accomplish something and arrive somewhere...

Being as the rule as quoted is that of "a tale" then upon judging the entire series I would say much is accomplished. Also an arrival is in mind if not yet in sight, though of course several lesser arrivals have been acomplished. And changing the world rather counts as accomplishing something

Verdict: Not Guilty



2. Guilty. Massive chunks of the series. Nearly all of Book 10, and also large swathes of Elayne's royal politics.

2. They require that the episodes in a tale shall be necessary parts of the tale, and shall help to develop it...

Actually I'm prepared to say that the only subplot thus far thats expendable has been Elayne's bit.

Even that could prove to turn out important, just hasn't been foreshadowed yet. Aludra only becomes important in book 11 but shows up in book 2 and has a seemingly even less (but even more) important scene in book 3. This we don't know yet, its one of the smallest enclaves in the plot. Not the most important part thus far.

However if one wishes Elayne to have an identity separate then that of Rand's romantic interest.... then the plot becomes a piece of developing the plot because it expands on a character in it.

Verdict: Undecided leaning towards not guilty.


3. Guilty. I occasionally forgot which of the Forsaken were still alive. I think that's understandable, since it would go for hundreds of pages between mentioning them.

3. They require that the personages in a tale shall be alive, except in the case of corpses, and that always the reader shall be able to tell the corpses from the others...

Given that each Forsaken aside from Be'lal has been very distinctive as characters and die rather elaborately I fail to see how this is a problem for you. And if the 'Gars, Moridin, and Cyndane are screwing with you that's because you're supposed to have to figure out.

In general I've only had problems keeping very very minor characters straight. Mostly Aes Sedai without POVs. And even minor characters are alive in that they have distinguishing characteristics to follow. Thus...

Verdict: Not Guilty



4. Guilty. Far too many to mention here. Probably 75% of the supporting cast didn't need to be there. (Tolkien had a huge problem with this one as well, but his strengths more than made up for it).

4. They require that the personages in a tale, both dead and alive, shall exhibit a sufficient excuse for being there...

I'd very much disagree with you there on percentages. Even minor characters go up to the underlying theme of a fully fleshed out world that is not merely constructed for the whim of the story, but in which the story happens in a larger but interconnected context.

Verdict: Not Guilty



6. Undecided. Hit and miss. Mat was a hit; Perrin was a miss.

6. They require that when the author describes the character of a personage in the tale, the conduct and conversation of that personage shall justify said description...

So Perrin is not gentle and more careful to act? I'm not sure you're reading the rule right. When Jordan describes someone, they pretty much meet the description barring occaisonal (ie: ironic or intentional) error I think on the part of the describer. This rule is if someone has a described 'timid manner' then acts like Nynaeve.

Verdict: Not Guilty


7. Undecided. Again, hit and miss; though much of this can be chalked up to characters talking differently in official as opposed to private settings.

7. They require that when a personage talks like an illustrated, gilt-edged, tree-calf, hand-tooled, seven- dollar Friendship's Offering in the beginning of a paragraph, he shall not talk like a [redacted for forum rules] minstrel in the end of it...

Different scenes and different demands do not fufill this rule as those are legitmate uses of someone changing manner. Jordan's characters are consistent within one line of thought if nothing else. Random is not a part of this series.

Verdict: Not Guilty.


10. Guilty. He followed this in the first few books. By the last few books, I'll echo Twain's critique: "But the reader of the "Deerslayer" tale dislikes the good people in it, is indifferent to the others, and wishes they would all get drowned together." The notable exception was Mat, but I'm always a sucker for a magnificent bastard.

10. They require that the author shall make the reader feel a deep interest in the personages of his tale and in their fate; and that he shall make the reader love the good people in the tale and hate the bad ones...

Subjective rule here, I very much love the good people of the tale and I'm very interested in their fate. There aren't enough nuts and bolts to this definition to be objective. It relies on human reaction which is automatically unpredictable.

Verdict: Personal opinion plays too highly for this one. However multiple number one best sellers suggest that plenty of people are connected to the character. If not all of them nessecarily

Though since when has Mat been anything close to a bastard? That's flanderizing the trope to being "any really cool character" there. He's not a badass normal either.


11. Undecided. Some are. Most aren't. Mat, Lan, and Nynaeve are consistent. Not many others are. Rand and Perrin, particularly not; although Rand at least has some excuse, since he is going insane. Note that a consistent character can be a dynamic character. Mat is an example of this. He changes and learns things, but he stays Mat. Perrin's whole characterization changes completely between the first part of the series and the last.

11. They require that the characters in a tale shall be so clearly defined that the reader can tell beforehand what each will do in a given emergency...

I actually have problems with this rule since it seems to demand that characters be very predictable. Sure this whole list isn't tongue and cheek ribbing of a more pulply limited genre? That said...

Verdict: Guilty, it is hard to guess what a lot of characters will do.



14. Guilty. Anyone who thinks the books couldn't deal with some massive cuts is deluding themselves. Fail.

14. Eschew surplusage

I'd originally have agreed only further readings led me to believe that there really isn't much one can simply cut out. At least as far as events and plot lines. On this fron the story is amazingly purposeful for being five times as big a story as anything else I've read.

If one wishes to talk about dress colors or meals then sure, but that's deeply changing the writing style anyways. And I like the details most of the time, Mat's meal in the White Tower gets me hungry every time. Its the small details that make the world so realistic to me.

Verdict: Guilty



18. Guilty. He talks circles around the points he tries to make.

18. Employ a simple and straightforward style.

I think the writing style isn't particularly flowery or indirect, you are told things and deliberately not told things in good order as Jordan chooses. In this case its particularly dense and detailed, but not flowery like this rule is speaking too. Jordan will write "the dress had blue flowers on the hem" far far more often then the likes of "vibrant petals of a resplendent azure hue the color of sapphires adorned the line of the dress like stars upon the night sky during the night of the new moon" and the thought of applying the latter style to the level of detail in the books....

If one wishes to apply the rules standard to the plot thoug, then the book is neither. However I'd challenge whether that sort of approach is appropriate to begin with. A complex tale you can chew over a couple times before swallowing is a good thing, unless one only cares for their literature to be diet coke. I don't think that's what being talked about in the rule though.

Verdict: Not Guilty

[Justin_Bacon]

I agree with horngeek, best fantasy author ever, don't dare say he doesn't deserve to be read, don't you dare.

Look, I'm a Jordan fan, I've been known to defend his books vigorously, and I'm eagerly looking forward to seeing the last book published so that I can re-read the series from beginning to end. (I made the decision a few years ago not to read any more until the series was finished.)

But "best fantasy author ever"? C'mon. That's such ridiculous hyperbole that it's impossible to take it seriously.

[Gavin Sage]

Look, I'm a Jordan fan, I've been known to defend his books vigorously, and I'm eagerly looking forward to seeing the last book published so that I can re-read the series from beginning to end. (I made the decision a few years ago not to read any more until the series was finished.)

But "best fantasy author ever"? C'mon. That's such ridiculous hyperbole that it's impossible to take it seriously.

Well he's my absolute favorite author personally but even I would shy away from greatest. Tolkien is the probably the greatest ever simply for the impact he has beyond any quality of his work. Or dive back farther to Howard and Conan. Jordan I feel wrote the best stuff to come out in the past decade, but he doesn't have the broader impact to demand consideration for greatest yet.


However I have to think that if Jordan was writing some decades back before say LOTR then we might well be talking about him in place of Tolkien, because their strengths are relatively similar. Arguable in writing, but incredible at worldbuilding and getting up to epic scale stuff.


(Though tongue in cheek the best fantasy author is Frank Herbert with Dune.... yes he is!)

[horngeek]

In my opinion, every book int the wheel of Time series is great.
The universe is extremely well constructed, and it really comes to life.

As for Elayne's storyline, there is actually foreshadowing of how it will become important. Elida has Foretold that the royal house of Andor will be vital to winning the last battle.

[Anteros]

In my opinion, every book int the wheel of Time series is great.
The universe is extremely well constructed, and it really comes to life.

As for Elayne's storyline, there is actually foreshadowing of how it will become important. Elida has Foretold that the royal house of Andor will be vital to winning the last battle.

What Elaida doesn't know is that Rand is descended from the previous royal house of Andor, who were in power when she had her fortelling. She thinks it means Elayne but in reality it means Rand.

[mangosta71]

What Elaida doesn't know is that Rand is descended from the previous royal house of Andor, who were in power when she had her fortelling. She thinks it means Elayne but in reality it means Rand.

There's nothing to indicate that her Foretelling doesn't mean that both of them will be vital.

[Gavin Sage]

There's nothing to indicate that her Foretelling doesn't mean that both of them will be vital.

While I'm not sure we've heard the verbatim words I believe the specific term was 'the key' not merely vital. I'm not one hundred on that but that's what I remember. Which is more singular and suggests Rand more strongly. Plus it was "Royal House" in the singular when Rand and Elayne are from separate houses. To Rand's great relief.

Though I'm far too sketchy on the specifics to rule out two for one I think it would contradict Elaida's major theme of being a total fool. We know from her own lips she's destined to loose the White Tower. Expect Egwene serving supper to Elaida to end with the Ajah heads scheme completing itself and Egwene as the fully acknowledged Amyrlin.

[Anteros]

Yes, I'm with Gavin on this. It's unlikely it means both since they are from different houses. Actually Elayne's subplot is the one so far with no real consequenses towards Tarmon Gai'don. Even Perrin's which is mind numbingly boring has a bigger impact. Maybe it will change in the last book though.

[WalkingTarget]

While I'm not sure we've heard the verbatim words I believe the specific term was 'the key' not merely vital. I'm not one hundred on that but that's what I remember. Which is more singular and suggests Rand more strongly. Plus it was "Royal House" in the singular when Rand and Elayne are from separate houses. To Rand's great relief.

Though I'm far too sketchy on the specifics to rule out two for one I think it would contradict Elaida's major theme of being a total fool. We know from her own lips she's destined to loose the White Tower. Expect Egwene serving supper to Elaida to end with the Ajah heads scheme completing itself and Egwene as the fully acknowledged Amyrlin.

From The Shadow Rising:

"The very first thing Elaida had ever Foretold, while still an Accepted - and had known enough even then to keep to herself - was that the Royal line of Andor would be the key to defeating the Dark One in the Last Battle. She had attached herself to Morgase as soon as it was clear Morgase would succeed to the throne..."

So the Royal line (singular) would be the key.

[mangosta71]

From The Shadow Rising:

"The very first thing Elaida had ever Foretold, while still an Accepted - and had known enough even then to keep to herself - was that the Royal line of Andor would be the key to defeating the Dark One in the Last Battle. She had attached herself to Morgase as soon as it was clear Morgase would succeed to the throne..."

So the Royal line (singular) would be the key.

Yes, but the Royal line at the time she was an Accepted, or the Royal line at the time of Tarmon Gai'don? The Foretelling isn't clear. I still think it could mean either or both.

[Gavin Sage]

Yes, but the Royal line at the time she was an Accepted, or the Royal line at the time of Tarmon Gai'don? The Foretelling isn't clear. I still think it could mean either or both.

That part is ambigous perhaps, but combine it with "THE key" and frankly I'm not inclined to go with Elayne being pivotal to the books as a whole. Not versus you know Rand, and Elayne being part of a co-equal trinity to begin with.

[Anteros]

Slight shift in topic, but am I the only one who absolutely hates Elayne and wants her to die in the most painful way possible?

I guess it's just good writing and character development, but the idea that anyone could be as self centered as she is in the latest book turns my stomach.

[Prustan]

(Sorry, can't do spoiler tags)

Been a while since I've read the relevant parts, but I was under the impression that Rand was a more or less direct descendant of the first Queen of Andor, which would make him the Key that Elaida's Foretelling mentions. Sure, Elayne is carrying his child, but she's far less important then Rand.

[WalkingTarget]

Yes, but the Royal line at the time she was an Accepted, or the Royal line at the time of Tarmon Gai'don? The Foretelling isn't clear. I still think it could mean either or both.

Yeah, I just provide the relevant quote. My reading of it is the line at the time of the Foretelling and that Rand is the important bit, but that's just me. Note that this kind of includes Galad Damodred and the Luc half of Slayer (Rand's half brother and uncle respectively) if you want to go into conspiracy theory mode.

Of course, we don't even have the exact wording of that Foretelling (unless there's something in New Spring that I'm not remembering), only her general recollection of the event.


Slight shift in topic, but am I the only one who absolutely hates Elayne and wants her to die in the most painful way possible?

I guess it's just good writing and character development, but the idea that anyone could be as self centered as she is in the latest book turns my stomach.

I don't necessarily want her to "die in the most painful way possible" but I remember not being thrilled with her chapters in the recent books (it's been a while since I've read them, though, so I might be forgetting stuff).

[SnowballMan]

I have a question for people who have read the whole series :
Did I miss something? Is there any indication as to what specifically the creatures in the gateway told Rand that allowed him to figure out how to clean Saidin? This bothered me. Like reading a mystery, having it solved with no possible way for the reader to have figured it ahead of time. "I have a clue! I will not tell you what the clue is, but state that it proves the butler is guilty!"

Not only that but how it happened made no sense to me. It's as if two wrongs really do make everything alright.

And for those that have not read it :
Have some pie.
http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/8679/pumpkinpieck521671lre4.jpg

[mangosta71]

No, Rand's experiences there were never revealed, other than that he needed a translator.

[Rare Pink Leech]

I have a question for people who have read the whole series :
Did I miss something? Is there any indication as to what specifically the creatures in the gateway told Rand that allowed him to figure out how to clean Saidin? This bothered me. Like reading a mystery, having it solved with no possible way for the reader to have figured it ahead of time. "I have a clue! I will not tell you what the clue is, but state that it proves the butler is guilty!"

Not only that but how it happened made no sense to me. It's as if two wrongs really do make everything alright.

Like mangosta71 said, it has never been revealed. Presumably, it was something along the lines of "you need saidin and saidar working together and more One Power than anyone could hope to channel by themselves". You have to figure it was a pretty heavy clue, not that I feel the particular need to have exactly what they told him revealed. Knowing what his three questions were would be cool (we never found out all three, did we?), but not detailed answers

[Blackfang108]

Jordan and Goodkind, two authors who's writing didn't deserve to be read and they are both getting visual media for their series as well. So unhappy, why couldn't Hollywood pick something good... like Malazan?

...

Start running.

[freerangetroll]

...

Start running.


About two weeks behind on that one buddy. :smallcool:

[MammonAzrael]

About two weeks behind on that one buddy. :smallcool:

That just means you should have a good head start. :smalltongue:

As others have said......the only answer we know about was how to cleanse Saidin of the taint (I think). I figure he got a fairly good answer on it, and has been working out the minor details for a couple books prior to the actual cleansing.

I do hope we will find out what his other two questions were though.

[WalkingTarget]

The only real clue we have as to his questions is that "He had been told by those he had to believe. To live, you must die."

I always assumed that the Saidin-cleansing thing was more about Shadar Logoth than a clue that he had to use Saidar to do it. Worded in some obscure, not very helpful way of course (then again, the reaction of his two side-wounds may be more of a catalyst for that).

[Gavin Sage]

Rand got a riddle out of the 'finns for how to cleanse Saidin. He got "to live, you must die" for winning Tarmon Gai'don which also ranks as a riddle if maddeningly unhelpful. And I saw somewhere that his third question was whether he should go home and save the Two Rivers, and probably got something along the lines Mat got about Rhuidean.

Apparently the books will end with Rand faking his death with Alivia's help, Logain taking all the credit for saving the world (since can there be more glory then that I say!) and Elayne/Min/Aviendha all on a boat with Rands fake-dead self. My bet is they are sailing to Tar Valon since its where Rand notably hasn't been ever.

[mangosta71]

Rand got a riddle out of the 'finns for how to cleanse Saidin. He got "to live, you must die" for winning Tarmon Gai'don which also ranks as a riddle if maddeningly unhelpful. And I saw somewhere that his third question was whether he should go home and save the Two Rivers, and probably got something along the lines Mat got about Rhuidean.

Apparently the books will end with Rand faking his death with Alivia's help, Logain taking all the credit for saving the world (since can there be more glory then that I say!) and Elayne/Min/Aviendha all on a boat with Rands fake-dead self. My bet is they are sailing to Tar Valon since its where Rand notably hasn't been ever.

The Prophecies indicate that victory at Tarmon Gai'don will cost Rand his life. "To live, you must die" could well refer to a future reincarnation of the Dragon, as the world will not continue if he loses.

[Anteros]

It's pretty obvious that the version of the Dragon who is going to die at Tarmon Gai'don is Lews Therin, not Rand Al'Thor. There are numerous hints towards this, but the most obvious is when Min sees Rand's face merge with Lews Therin's, but only sees that one of them is going to die. Obviously this means one of them will live. The fact that Rand assumes he is the one who will die is wrong.

[Rare Pink Leech]

Rand got a riddle out of the 'finns for how to cleanse Saidin. He got "to live, you must die" for winning Tarmon Gai'don which also ranks as a riddle if maddeningly unhelpful. And I saw somewhere that his third question was whether he should go home and save the Two Rivers, and probably got something along the lines Mat got about Rhuidean.

Apparently the books will end with Rand faking his death with Alivia's help, Logain taking all the credit for saving the world (since can there be more glory then that I say!) and Elayne/Min/Aviendha all on a boat with Rands fake-dead self. My bet is they are sailing to Tar Valon since its where Rand notably hasn't been ever.

Interesting theory, that Logain will take the credit for saving the world. Hadn't thought of that one - I always assumed Logain's glory would be from being a general at the Last Battle, or killing Taim/saving Rand from Taim or something else, but there certainly isn't any more glory than saving the world at the Last Battle, right? I'm still not sure that this is what will happen, but it would certainly fit with Jordan's style, and it is a very interesting theory nonetheless.


The Prophecies indicate that victory at Tarmon Gai'don will cost Rand his life. "To live, you must die" could well refer to a future reincarnation of the Dragon, as the world will not continue if he loses.

I think it's going to be a little more complicated than referring to a future reincarnation. I think the reincarnation of souls in The Wheel of Time is a little more established and widely known among the general populace, if I remember correctly

Another theory of mine:

Earlier in this thread I think someone referenced the fact that Rand was going to destroy the world again in another Breaking; if it wasn't mentioned in this thread, I know I've read people state this as fact elsewhere. I don't think this is correct, at least not in the literal sense.

I've had this theory kicking around for quite a few books now: the prophecy goes that in order to save the world, Rand must break it. Well, Rand isn't going to break the world by destroying its physical landscape, but rather its sociopolitical landscape. I've seen hints relating to this, not that I can remember them at all now, and we've already seen Rand create upheaval wherever he goes; part of it is simply because he is who he is, but it is also part of his overall plan to move armies and nobles to different parts of the world, break old political ties, etc. I think he's already in the process of Breaking the World a second time.

[Gavin Sage]

It's pretty obvious that the version of the Dragon who is going to die at Tarmon Gai'don is Lews Therin, not Rand Al'Thor. There are numerous hints towards this, but the most obvious is when Min sees Rand's face merge with Lews Therin's, but only sees that one of them is going to die. Obviously this means one of them will live. The fact that Rand assumes he is the one who will die is wrong.


Sorry but that's actually very much wrong,

The face Min see's is not that of Lews Therin. Rand cannot merge with Lews Therin because he is Lews Therin already, one soul bound to war against the Shadow for all time. Lews Therin is both a split personality and real.

The face Min sees is that of Moridin.

[Anteros]

That's some pretty hard core speculation. I could see where you might be right, but what kind of evidence do you have to support that?

[mangosta71]

Sorry but that's actually very much wrong,

The face Min see's is not that of Lews Therin. Rand cannot merge with Lews Therin because he is Lews Therin already, one soul bound to war against the Shadow for all time. Lews Therin is both a split personality and real.

The face Min sees is that of Moridin.

That's an interesting theory. I realize that Min, having never seen either, would be unable to say which she saw, and it was Rand's assumption that it was Lews Therin after she gave him a rough description. I don't recall where in the books it was, but I think we've been given a physical description of Moridin, and it didn't fit with Lews Therin (he's younger and blond iirc)...

[Krrth]

WHile we're discussing this, remember that RJ designed the story around old myths and legends. Al'thor (Arthur), Lan (Lancelot), Merrilin (Merlin) and the like. Don't be suprised if the end has similar themes. Personally, I have a sneaking idea that he will end up on a boat, being taken to Tar Valon (Avalon) to rest by the three "sisters", like in several of the arturian myths.

[The_Snark]

Gawyn and Galad (Galahad) are even more obvious parallels. But don't forget that he's borrowing from more than one set of myths at a time. Rand, Mat and Perrin resemble old Norse gods—Mat's parallels to Odin are obvious, what with the raven motif, hanging from the Tree of Life for knowledge, and visions of him with only one eye. Perrin and Rand resemble Thor (hammer) and Tyr (lost right hand as a sacrifice to save other gods); I thought it was the other way around at first, what with Perrin's associations with wolves and Rand's last name, but this seems to make more sense. And the whole idea of the Last Battle rather resembles Ragnarok.

[Krrth]

Gawyn and Galad (Galahad) are even more obvious parallels. But don't forget that he's borrowing from more than one set of myths at a time. Rand, Mat and Perrin resemble old Norse gods—Mat's parallels to Odin are obvious, what with the raven motif, hanging from the Tree of Life for knowledge, and visions of him with only one eye. Perrin and Rand resemble Thor (hammer) and Tyr (lost right hand as a sacrifice to save other gods); I thought it was the other way around at first, what with Perrin's associations with wolves and Rand's last name, but this seems to make more sense. And the whole idea of the Last Battle rather resembles Ragnarok.


Yeah, he put several different legend sets into it. I actually had the pleasure of meeting him when he came to sign books in Virginia a number of years back. I asked him about it....he mentioned that he was pulling Perrin partially from Celtic myths as well.

[WalkingTarget]

Yeah, he put several different legend sets into it. I actually had the pleasure of meeting him when he came to sign books in Virginia a number of years back. I asked him about it....he mentioned that he was pulling Perrin partially from Celtic myths as well.

Not to mention Slavic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perun) myth.

[Krrth]

Not to mention Slavic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perun) myth.
Well, while I'm not familiar with Slavic myths, that does seem to be a connection there. Anyone have ideas as to which myths characters might have been pulled from? So far, we've got Arthurian, Celtic, Greek, Norse, and Slavic.

[Rare Pink Leech]

Another theory of mine:

Earlier in this thread I think someone referenced the fact that Rand was going to destroy the world again in another Breaking; if it wasn't mentioned in this thread, I know I've read people state this as fact elsewhere. I don't think this is correct, at least not in the literal sense.

I've had this theory kicking around for quite a few books now: the prophecy goes that in order to save the world, Rand must break it. Well, Rand isn't going to break the world by destroying its physical landscape, but rather its sociopolitical landscape. I've seen hints relating to this, not that I can remember them at all now, and we've already seen Rand create upheaval wherever he goes; part of it is simply because he is who he is, but it is also part of his overall plan to move armies and nobles to different parts of the world, break old political ties, etc. I think he's already in the process of Breaking the World a second time.

What? No love for this theory?


Sorry but that's actually very much wrong,

The face Min see's is not that of Lews Therin. Rand cannot merge with Lews Therin because he is Lews Therin already, one soul bound to war against the Shadow for all time. Lews Therin is both a split personality and real.

The face Min sees is that of Moridin.

Another interesting theory from you, Gavin Sage. I'm liking the stuff you come up with/have read elsewhere. This one makes since, because

Rand and Ishamael/Moridin are total opposites, and the whole merging before one dies has a nice duality to it. Since Ishy/Moridin has said their two souls are constantly reincarnated to fight each other throughout the ages, this would be a great way to end their conflict, at least for this Age.

[Gavin Sage]

What? No love for this theory?

Its pretty much established in canon at this point. Given events in Winter Heart and all makes it rather hard besides....

....the guardians balanced against the servants. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle.

And all that with Nicola's Foretelling pretty much spoils the whole post Tarmon Gai'don political setting. The age called by some the Third Age will not end with a breaking like the last one.




Another interesting theory from you, Gavin Sage. I'm liking the stuff you come up with/have read elsewhere. This one makes since, because

Rand and Ishamael/Moridin are total opposites, and the whole merging before one dies has a nice duality to it. Since Ishy/Moridin has said their two souls are constantly reincarnated to fight each other throughout the ages, this would be a great way to end their conflict, at least for this Age.

Consider also...

Min sees the future, or at least symbolic portents of it. By the time we here about the faces Lews Therin is already 'alive' and ranting like a madman. The touching such as it would if not at birth has already occured. Heck I think this is even after the Tel'aran'rihod event. (On a side note taking Min to only see future events makes Lan's own images much more interesting)

However it is before the True Power and One Power balefire stream cross in Shadar Logoth. And in Book 11 Rand confirms as much that he's seeing that man's face when he channels and gets sick, and Lews Therin adds that it must have happened in Shadar Logoth. We of course know the man in Shadar Logoth to be Moridin. It's like in Ghostbusters only more psychic and less nuclear.

[Anteros]

Except she describes the face to Rand and he thinks it's Lews Therin. Who looks nothing like Moridin.

As for you saying she only sees the future, I'm not convinced that is so. But even if you're right, she sees the two faces merging together. And Rand and Lews Therin are certainly becoming much more similar to one another as time has progressed past that point. Rand can't even tell his own memories apart from Lews Therin at times now. And Lews Therin talks about growing up in Emond's Field. This is much more likely than your Moridin theory, which while not completely unbelievable, lacks any real evidence. At least as far as you've provided.

[Gavin Sage]

Except she describes the face to Rand and he thinks it's Lews Therin. Who looks nothing like Moridin.

As for you saying she only sees the future, I'm not convinced that is so. But even if you're right, she sees the two faces merging together. And Rand and Lews Therin are certainly becoming much more similar to one another as time has progressed past that point. Rand can't even tell his own memories apart from Lews Therin at times now. And Lews Therin talks about growing up in Emond's Field. This is much more likely than your Moridin theory, which while not completely unbelievable, lacks any real evidence. At least as far as you've provided.

The original doesn't have description enough to tie to Lews Therin as I recall. Rand immediately leaps on that interpretation because its all he knows, not because it matches Lews Therin's description. That a prophecy is solved as soon as its uttered should is a big red flag to genre savy anyways.

I think about this time we had Rand declaring a dagger he couldn't see was just a Grey Man. When better interpretations would be Dashiva or Taim. Or even perhaps Logain or Alivia, since neither's had a POV chapter thus has little evidence for not being a Darkfriend. And Rand cutting the wetlands in two is vague enough to be merely interpretive, but has a very discernable meaning if one considers the truce with the Seanchan will divide the lands.

And while we do have Lews Therin, we still have Rand seeing Moridin in his head too. So we have to deal with both having some kind of connection. The incident in Shadar Logoth makes more sense with respect to 'touching then seeming to merge' then Lews Therin gradually bubbling up. I submit again Lews Therin is not a separate from Rand. Because they are the same one soul reincarnated over and over again.

[WalkingTarget]

The original doesn't have description enough to tie to Lews Therin as I recall. Rand immediately leaps on that interpretation because its all he knows, not because it matches Lews Therin's description. That a prophecy is solved as soon as its uttered should is a big red flag to genre savy anyways.

I think about this time we had Rand declaring a dagger he couldn't see was just a Grey Man. When better interpretations would be Dashiva or Taim. Or even perhaps Logain or Alivia, since neither's had a POV chapter thus has little evidence for not being a Darkfriend. And Rand cutting the wetlands in two is vague enough to be merely interpretive, but has a very discernable meaning if one considers the truce with the Seanchan will divide the lands.

And while we do have Lews Therin, we still have Rand seeing Moridin in his head too. So we have to deal with both having some kind of connection. The incident in Shadar Logoth makes more sense with respect to 'touching then seeming to merge' then Lews Therin gradually bubbling up. I submit again Lews Therin is not a separate from Rand. Because they are the same one soul reincarnated over and over again.

From A Crown of Swords "I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't." So you're right in that we have no data to work from (other than the genre-savvy response that since Rand immediately concludes that it's LTT then it's unlikely that that's the case). First time for everything, though.

[Anteros]

Well, regardless which interpretation of that you prefer, my original point concerning Rand's survival is still valid.

[Gavin Sage]

Yeah that's pretty true. Jordan doesn't seem to want to end things terribly unhappily.

[Rare Pink Leech]

Its pretty much established in canon at this point. Given events in Winter Heart and all makes it rather hard besides....

....the guardians balanced against the servants. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle.

And all that with Nicola's Foretelling pretty much spoils the whole post Tarmon Gai'don political setting. The age called by some the Third Age will not end with a breaking like the last one.





Consider also...

Min sees the future, or at least symbolic portents of it. By the time we here about the faces Lews Therin is already 'alive' and ranting like a madman. The touching such as it would if not at birth has already occured. Heck I think this is even after the Tel'aran'rihod event. (On a side note taking Min to only see future events makes Lan's own images much more interesting)

However it is before the True Power and One Power balefire stream cross in Shadar Logoth. And in Book 11 Rand confirms as much that he's seeing that man's face when he channels and gets sick, and Lews Therin adds that it must have happened in Shadar Logoth. We of course know the man in Shadar Logoth to be Moridin. It's like in Ghostbusters only more psychic and less nuclear.

Is the theory I posted really that widely accepted? That actually makes me feel better. Whenever I talk to other Wheel of Time fans, they almost always take it for granted that Rand is going to physically destroy the world like at the Last Breaking. It's been obvious to me since before Winter's Heart that it would happen like this, but it seems like everyone else I talk to still believe it. Must be because all the characters still think that's what's going to happen, completely ignoring the fact that Jordan has consistently shown that even if a character believes something to be true, it isn't always so. Which, going on a tangent here, is a pretty big gripe of mine: people who take anything a character says to be true.

I have a question, since you obviously remember a lot of the details much better than me: how would Min's visions of Lan be interesting if she only sees into the future?

Oh, and the Ghostbuster's analogy? Best. Analogy. Ever.


Well, regardless which interpretation of that you prefer, my original point concerning Rand's survival is still valid.

I quite agree. I like the Rand/Moridin theory more than the Rand/Lews Therin theory right now, but I think they both have their merits and either could reasonably occur. I also agree with the theory of Rand's survival; this is one that I've heard kicked around for quite a while, and I've been operating under the assumption that Rand will fake his death. Gavin Sage's theory that Logain will take the credit adds an interesting fold to it, though.

Edit: messed up both my spoiler tags :smallannoyed:

[mangosta71]

I have a question, since you obviously remember a lot of the details much better than me: how would Min's visions of Lan be interesting if she only sees into the future?

I assume he's referring to the seven towers being whole vision. Which implies that Malkier will be restored, with Lan as the crowned king.

[Gavin Sage]

Is the theory I posted really that widely accepted? That actually makes me feel better. Whenever I talk to other Wheel of Time fans, they almost always take it for granted that Rand is going to physically destroy the world like at the Last Breaking. It's been obvious to me since before Winter's Heart that it would happen like this, but it seems like everyone else I talk to still believe it. Must be because all the characters still think that's what's going to happen, completely ignoring the fact that Jordan has consistently shown that even if a character believes something to be true, it isn't always so. Which, going on a tangent here, is a pretty big gripe of mine: people who take anything a character says to be true.

I have a question, since you obviously remember a lot of the details much better than me: how would Min's visions of Lan be interesting if she only sees into the future?

Oh, and the Ghostbuster's analogy? Best. Analogy. Ever.

Well I can't speak for the fandom:
...but the real kicker is Nicola's foretelling. And Rand taking such steps to leave a legacy with his academy and advances like steam power and Aludra's dragons. It would be tremendously anti-climatic for Rand to blow every thing to flinders.

(Its also worth noting that between half of the Choden Kal being gone and saidin being clean.... how Breaking would be possible is a bit of a reach)

That doesn't mean there won't be a major new order after everything is done. We have the Seanchan established in their corner. Perrin is essentially the King of Ghealdan already, and in line for being Prince-Consort/King of Saldea... oh and Andor has no real control over the countryside between those nations. And Two Rivers is swelling with people. Then we've got the closely aligned Borderlands in general, and we have Rand setting up Stewards under his empire. I think Randland is ripe for an era of unification and shift from a patchwork of nations, to a series of greater unified powers. Considerable war is near certain in the years following Tarmon Gai'don.

Now Lan. You see Lan has images of ruined towers and a babe with a sword in a cradle. One might think these are hints of his past. If Min only see's the future then well.... currently we only know of one reason babe's are given swords in cradles. Its generation xerox for the next King of Malkier.

[mangosta71]

(Its also worth noting that between half of the Choden Kal being gone and saidin being clean.... how Breaking would be possible is a bit of a reach)

Not that big a reach, really. After all, saidin was clean when LTT beat Shai'tan last time. If time is cyclic, then it had to be cleansed before the Bore could be repaired again, and it's certainly possible that doing so will again have a backlash that leaves it tainted. And in another age, it will be cleansed again and then tainted again in victory unless the cycle is broken (which is certainly possible).

[Rare Pink Leech]

Well I can't speak for the fandom:
...but the real kicker is Nicola's foretelling. And Rand taking such steps to leave a legacy with his academy and advances like steam power and Aludra's dragons. It would be tremendously anti-climatic for Rand to blow every thing to flinders.

(Its also worth noting that between half of the Choden Kal being gone and saidin being clean.... how Breaking would be possible is a bit of a reach)

That doesn't mean there won't be a major new order after everything is done. We have the Seanchan established in their corner. Perrin is essentially the King of Ghealdan already, and in line for being Prince-Consort/King of Saldea... oh and Andor has no real control over the countryside between those nations. And Two Rivers is swelling with people. Then we've got the closely aligned Borderlands in general, and we have Rand setting up Stewards under his empire. I think Randland is ripe for an era of unification and shift from a patchwork of nations, to a series of greater unified powers. Considerable war is near certain in the years following Tarmon Gai'don.

Now Lan. You see Lan has images of ruined towers and a babe with a sword in a cradle. One might think these are hints of his past. If Min only see's the future then well.... currently we only know of one reason babe's are given swords in cradles. Its generation xerox for the next King of Malkier.

What you said about Rand breaking the world is pretty much what I've been thinking about -- all the upheaval that's already happened makes it pretty obvious the breaking has already begun. And besides, having everyone misinterpret what the second breaking involves is a typically Jordan thing to do :smallbiggrin:

Regarding Min's visions, I'm pretty sure I always took them to be a mix of the past, present, and future, but I could be mistaken since it's been a number of years since I read any of the books (the last time I read books 1-9 was in preparation for Crossroads of Twilight, and since then I've only read Knife of Dreams). At any rate, if I remember correctly, Lan was given the sword in the cradle not because it was tradition, but because Malkier was a doomed country. Not that I don't think Malkier will remain dead; I think it's very possible that the nation will be resurrected.

Edit: Gah! Messed up my spoiler tags again :smallfurious:

[Anteros]

Here's a question for my fellow Wheel of Time theorists. Obviously Rand is Lews Therin reborn, and there is strong evidence that Mat is Aedmon of Manatherin, but who is Perrin?

There are hints he could be either Rogosh Eagle Eye or Hawkwing, but both of those answered the horn of Valere.

They said that time works differently in Telhanriod, but I doubt it's that much of a difference.

[MammonAzrael]

I find it hard to believe that Mat or Perrin are legendary heroes reborn. When the heroes are called back by the horn at the end of the second book, they greet Rand, and they know who he is, but they don't acknowledge Mat or Perrin in such a manner.

(Am I wrong? I'm AFB, and haven't read the Great Hunt in a long while...)

[mangosta71]

Assuming that Mat's memories are real, he must be bound to the Wheel. That being the case, we need another theory to explain why he isn't acknowledged by the heroes.
@Anteros: Is Aedmon a typo/misrecollection of Aemond? Because if it is, it doesn't fit. Aemond was the king, and Mat's memory of that time is that of one of his generals.

[The_Snark]

Why would he have to be bound to the Horn? His memories were given to him by the Eelfinn when they twisted his request for them to fill the gaps in his memory, as far as I can tell. Prior to that, he just spoke the odd word or two in tongues, which has to do with the old blood and which we've seen from other people as well (Egwene, for example).

And Perrin likely can't be bound to the Horn, because there are no old stories of people speaking with wolves. According to the wolves themselves, it has been an incredibly long time since that ability was last seen.

My theory is that Mat and Perrin are wild cards. Moiraine didn't expect them; Ishamael doesn't know how to fit them into his theories, and now he wants them dead much more consistently than he wants Rand dead. They're not familiar to any of the Forsaken, for that matter, and keep in mind that Moghedien somehow knew what Birgitte was in a prior incarnation. None of the evil people know what's going on with them, because it's not part of the usual pattern, and it has Moridin, at least, spooked.

[Douglas]

According to the Wheel of Time FAQ (http://www.siliconcerebrate.com/faqs/WOTFAQ/2_nondark/2.1_taveren/2.1.5_mat-memory.html), Robert Jordan explicitly stated that Mat's memories are not from his past lives (if he had any). He may have gotten small fragments from the Old Blood, but even that has little or nothing to do with past lives and reincarnation. The vast majority of his extra memories came from the Eelfin granting his request to have the holes in his memory "filled" (he neglected to specify with what), and the memories they happened to have on hand to do the filling with were all gathered from the sort of person who would willingly step through a mysterious doorway to another dimension - the adventurous sort, who generally have rather eventful lives.

This is in addition to the fact that the Heroes of the Horn completely ignored both Mat and Perrin when they were summoned at the end of TGH, despite Mat having been the one who summoned them, but instantly recognized and greeted Rand. The only acknowledgment by the Heroes that Mat even exists in that scene addresses him purely by his role there - "Trumpeter, will you give us music on the Horn?"

[Anteros]

Well in one of Perrin's prophetic wolf dreams he remembers fighting in countless battles throughout time, using his axe. I don't see how that's possible if he isn't bound to the wheel. I guess the dream could have been false, but Jordon doesn't usually include pointless scenes.

Also, if Mat isn't Aemond (or however you spell it.) How do you account for him not answering the call of the horn? There's little doubt that Aemond had achieved heroic status.

Edit: Also just found a Robert Jordan quote on the matter in the very faq that was just linked. "Gender/soul rebirth, is best illustrated by Mat and Birgitte." This proves that Mat at least is tied to the wheel, although not as who. (I still think Aemond.)

[Gavin Sage]

Here's the important question with the Horn and reincarnation: Are those tied to the Horn ta'veren?

We know Hawkwing is both ta'veren and the apparent leader of the host. What about the rest though. Its important because if the answer is that heroes of the Horn are all ta'veren, then it seems likely that's what constitutes being ta'veren in the first place. And from the other direction, minor twists of chance are just the thing one needs to win out 'heroically' in the first place. If the heroes are all ta'veren to one degree or another then it become much more likely for Mat to be Aedomon or such. (Yes this would mean there are actually four of 'em running around)

That all said, its entirely possible for the answer to be no. I believe we have mention of exactly 5 ta'veren in the entire series. The three, Hawkwing, and a woman from the era when the White Tower was founded. She's mentioned once and I can't even remember where. If someone knows what I'm talking about please get me a name and I'll compare to Falme.

It seems that being ta'veren isn't terribly notable, next to all the storied heroes showing up. I have strong suspsicions that ta'veren might be a mutable position. That Hawkwing when born again is not nessecarily going to be. And that Mat and Perrin are just random souls picked by the Wheel with no other special signifigance. This requires an exception though since the Dragon is both times he's been known. The Dragon only rides once an Age it seems, maybe not even that often so the exception doesn't mean much.

In any case while there is a case for Mat being Aedomon (or the like) solely because of his Healing in book 3, Perrin isn't anybody we've can tie a name too.

[Anteros]

Well we know for a fact that ta'veren status can be lost once the wheel is done with its purpose for the person. Or at least several characters believe so.

Also, Hawkwing tells the sniffer Hurin in book 2 that he has a chance of being bound to the wheel, and it seems doubtful that he is ta'veren. I would imagine that Hawkwing of all people would be among the most knowledgable on the subject, so I'm thinking that it's probably not a requirement for being bound. We also have first hand experience with Birgitte, and it seems unlikely that she is ta'veren either.

[Rare Pink Leech]

Hmm, interesting stuff all around. I agree that one doesn't need to be ta'veren to be a hero of the horn, nor are all the heroes ta'veren. Like Anteros said, people can be ta'veren for only small periods of time, when the Wheel needs them, and thus most will never be known.

I have a few reasons why Aemond wasn't summoned by the horn. A lame reason is that Jordan didn't mention him because he couldn't mention every single hero. Another reason is that Aemond is possibly the reincarnation of another hero (Hawkwing, maybe?) and thus only appeared as the most recognizable version of himself. Similarly, and I think this is the most likely of my reasons if any is true, is that Aemond simply wasn't notable enough to be a hero of the horn.

I may be remembering this wrong, but aren't all the heroes of the horn well-known figures who have many tales told about them? As far as I can remember, the tale of Aemond and his sacrifice is an obscure one that few people know, even among Aes Sedai and scholars. Maybe becoming a hero of the horn requires more than "just" a great deed (which Aemond certainly performed) or else there would be many, many more heroes of the horn (do we have an approximate figure of how many of them showed up?). Maybe you also require great notoriety.

Finally, could someone help me refresh my memory? Is it only heroes who are reborn, or are all souls reborn? I seem to remember that the fact that everyone will eventually be reborn is common knowledge/belief, but only the heroes will be constantly reborn to do great things.

[Gavin Sage]

I have a few reasons why Aemond wasn't summoned by the horn. A lame reason is that Jordan didn't mention him because he couldn't mention every single hero. Another reason is that Aemond is possibly the reincarnation of another hero (Hawkwing, maybe?) and thus only appeared as the most recognizable version of himself. Similarly, and I think this is the most likely of my reasons if any is true, is that Aemond simply wasn't notable enough to be a hero of the horn.

I may be remembering this wrong, but aren't all the heroes of the horn well-known figures who have many tales told about them? As far as I can remember, the tale of Aemond and his sacrifice is an obscure one that few people know, even among Aes Sedai and scholars. Maybe becoming a hero of the horn requires more than "just" a great deed (which Aemond certainly performed) or else there would be many, many more heroes of the horn (do we have an approximate figure of how many of them showed up?). Maybe you also require great notoriety.

Aemon can easily just be a king that is only famous for being the last king when Manetheren fell.

However I've had that thought too about the Heroes. I can't decide whether I buy Jordan using belief powered magic though. Though given that we know order and chaos have a metaphysical effect it its very possible. (Here's hoping for the Song of Hurin becoming Thom's most popular work!)


Finally, could someone help me refresh my memory? Is it only heroes who are reborn, or are all souls reborn? I seem to remember that the fact that everyone will eventually be reborn is common knowledge/belief, but only the heroes will be constantly reborn to do great things.

Everyone is reborn countless times as the Wheel turns and Ages come and go.

The Heroes of the Horn however are special in that they remain not where ever the dead go but in Tel'aran'rihod. Personally this suggests to me that the Horn of Valere "functions" by blurring the lines between reality and the World of Dreams. How I have no idea, when its not the OP its all a crap shoot.

Presumably everyone in the story has had a vast number of past lives through all seven ages. Afterall the books take place so far in the future that not-yet-formed fossils feel new compared to a Mercedes-Benz hood ornament.

[Anteros]

I dunno. Remember when Morraine said, "He was a man of such great courage, that the greatest compliment one could recieve even among his enemies was that they had Aemon's courage." That's not an exact quote, but the idea is the same. I really expect someone like that to be bound to the wheel.

Also, remember that Mat's memories from before going through the door are all from Aemon. He specifically remembers being him when healed in Tar Valon, and in the battle against the trollocs in the 2 Rivers he shouts Aemon's personal battle cry, not just Manatherens. Even the other character's comment jokingly that maybe Mat is Aemon reborn, before Lan tells them to shut up.

Also, Mat is constantly saying that "It's time to toss the dice." Which seems to originate from Aemon.

Nothing conclusive of course, but it seems very likely to me that Mat is Aemon.

[MammonAzrael]

Also, remember that Mat's memories from before going through the door are all from Aemon. He specifically remembers being him when healed in Tar Valon, and in the battle against the trollocs in the 2 Rivers he shouts Aemon's personal battle cry, not just Manatherens. Even the other character's comment jokingly that maybe Mat is Aemon reborn, before Lan tells them to shut up.

Also, Mat is constantly saying that "It's time to toss the dice." Which seems to originate from Aemon.

Nothing conclusive of course, but it seems very likely to me that Mat is Aemon.

I'm afraid that's pretty off. Mat's memories from the Eelfinn span a good long time, and an enourmous amount of military talent:


He could remember being tall. Taller than Rand, when he rode against Artur Hawkwing. And a hand shorter than he was now when he fought beside Maesine against the Aelgari. He had spoken to Lan, claiming he had overheard some names; the Warder said Maecine had been a king of Eharon, one of the Ten Nations - that much Mat already knew - some four or five hundred years before the Trolloc Wars. Lan doubted that even the Brown Ajah knew more; much had been lost in the Trolloc Wars, and more in the War of the Hundred Years. Those were the earliest and latest of the memories that had been planted in his skull. Nothing after Artur Paendrag Tanreall, and nothing before Maecine of Eharon.

Bolding mine.

EDIT: My bad, i didn't see that part. :smallsigh:

[Anteros]

Did you even read what I wrote? I was specifically talking about his memories from BEFORE he went through the doorway ter'angreal.

[Rare Pink Leech]

Everyone is reborn countless times as the Wheel turns and Ages come and go.

Ah, thought so. When you put it that way, I can't believe I kind of forgot such a central tenet in the books :smallsigh:


I dunno. Remember when Morraine said, "He was a man of such great courage, that the greatest compliment one could recieve even among his enemies was that they had Aemon's courage." That's not an exact quote, but the idea is the same. I really expect someone like that to be bound to the wheel.

Also, remember that Mat's memories from before going through the door are all from Aemon. He specifically remembers being him when healed in Tar Valon, and in the battle against the trollocs in the 2 Rivers he shouts Aemon's personal battle cry, not just Manatherens. Even the other character's comment jokingly that maybe Mat is Aemon reborn, before Lan tells them to shut up.

Also, Mat is constantly saying that "It's time to toss the dice." Which seems to originate from Aemon.

Nothing conclusive of course, but it seems very likely to me that Mat is Aemon.

Hmm, interesting points. I do not remember Mat remembering being Aemon when getting healed in Tar Valon, but that, and the other things you brought up, certainly gives one something to think about. I think Mat being Aemon reincarnated is a very real possibility.

Of course, that raises the question why none of the other heroes hailed Mat at Falme. Maybe they only knew who Rand was (when none of the heroes should have been able to recognize Rand as either himself or Lews Therin) simply because he is the Dragon, the single most important person in history. Maybe they can't recognize each other - does anyone remember what Birgitte said about if she would recognize Gaidal Cain in the real world?

Oh, and regarding whether Perrin could be Hawkwing or Rogosh Eagle-eye: I'm going to say definitely not, since they existed at the same time in Falme. If Mat really is Aemon, then Perrin would have to be someone else, although I'm stumped who.

[mangosta71]

Except that Aemon was married to an Aes Sedai, and Mat's outbursts (that several here claim originate from his life during that time) show a pronounced distrust of them. I seem to recall Mat having a memory of being the leader of Aemon's, or possibly his wife's, personal bodyguard (explaining his battlecry), but there's a bit too much for me to sift through to find it.

[Anteros]

And Mat is also married to a woman who can channel. It certainly doesn't mean he trusts Aes Sedai.

Look at Rand and Elayne. Elayne is an Aes Sedai and Rand loves her, but he certainly doesn't trust Aes Sedai in general. Just because he married one, doesn't mean he trusted them.

Actually, the novel itself even addresses this point.

"“But, Mother,” Egwene said, “he could not have meant it as it sounds. Manetheren was allied with Tar Valon.”
“Manetheren was an ally, child,” the Amyrlin told her, “but who can know the heart of a man? Not even he himself, I suspect. A man is the easiest animal to put on a leash, and the hardest to keep leashed. Even when he chooses it himself.”

Also remember that Tar Valon was an ally of Manatherin. One of the very allies who betrayed them and did not come to their aid when they were destroyed. Aemon would have little reason to love Aes Sedai.

Finally, that memory you are recalling is of Mat being Aemon himself. I'll spoiler it for length. Muad’drin tia dar allende caba’drin rhadiem,” he murmured. The words were only sounds, yet they
sparked - something.
The packed lines of spearmen stretched a mile or more to either side below him, dotted with the pennants and banners of towns and cities and minor Houses. The river secured his flank on the left, the bogs
and mires on the right. From the hillside he watched the spearmen struggle against the mass of Trollocs trying to break through, ten times the humans’ number. Spears pierced black Trolloc mail, and spiked axes carved
bloody gaps in the human ranks. Screams and bellows harried the air. The sun burned hot overhead in a cloudless sky, and shimmers of heat rose above the battle line. Arrows still rained down from the enemy, slaying
Trolloc and human alike. He had called his archers back, but the Dreadlords did not care so long as they broke his line. On the ridge behind him, the Heart Guard awaited his command, horses stamping impatiently. Armor
on men and horses alike shone silver in the sunlight; neither men nor animals could stand the heat much longer.
They must win here or die. He was known as a gambler; it was time to toss the dice. In a voice that carried over the tumult below, he gave the order as he swung up into his saddle. “Footmen prepare to pass cavalry forward.” His bannerman rode close beside him, the Red Eagle banner flapping over his head, as the command was repeated up and down the line.
Below, the spearmen suddenly moved, sidestepping with good discipline, narrowing their formations, opening wide gaps between. Gaps into which the Trollocs poured, roaring bestial cries, like a black, oozing tide
of death. He drew his sword, raised it high. “Forward the Heart Guard!” He dug his heels in, and his mount leaped down the slope. Behind him, hooves thundered in the charge. “Forward.” He was first to strike into the
Trollocs, his sword rising and falling, his bannerman close behind. “For the honor of the Red Eagle!” The Heart Guard pounded into the gaps between the spearmen, smashing the tide, hurling it back. “The Red
Eagle!” Half-human faces snarled at him, oddly curved swords sought him, but he cut his way ever deeper. Win or die. “Manetheren!”

I suppose you could argue that this is just the memory of a general, but it's very strongly implied to be Aemon himself, and it is very unlikely given the importance of that battle that Aemon would let anyone but himself command.

[Rare Pink Leech]

Regarding Mat's distrust of Aes Sedai: let's not forget that distrust of Aes Sedai is pretty ingrained within the people of Randland. While a (possible) former incarnation of Mat might have trusted them and been married to one it doesn't mean that Mat will inherit this trait (or even most of the previous traits).

I have a question not related to the contents of the books, but the books themselves: if you were recommending The Wheel of Time to someone, would you recommend reading The Eye of the World or New Spring first? I just had this discussion with someone, and he was adamant that anyone starting the series should read it in chronological order, starting with New Spring. I feel that doing so would ruin the mystery, sense of wonderment, and much of the intrigue from the earlier books, and that it should be read in the order that it was written. I don't think it matters if it's read after The Path of Daggers, when the short story came out, or after Crossroads of Twilight, when the novella came out - in fact, you could probably read it after Lord of Chaos or even The Fires of Heaven and still be okay. But my point is, New Spring should not be read first by a newcomer to the series. Agree/disagree?

[MammonAzrael]

I agree. While it may be a prequel, it reveals so much about several characters that thrive on their mystery in the first books that it can remove a lot of their greatness.

It's like watching Episodes 1-3 of SW before 4-6. It removes the impressiveness of Vader a bit, the "I am your father" twist is completely spoiled, and so on.

Some things can be read chronologically, but I don't believe WoT is one of them. A New Spring should be saved until after Moraine is "killed," IMO.

[Gavin Sage]

New Spring should not be read until after Cadsuane shows up, since knowing her in advance spoils the "who the f@#$ is this b&%@#?" moment. Once she's in the picture pretty much everything clicks into place and the book doesn't spoil anything. Then again as yet doesn't grant much insight either aside from the fact that Siuan didn't always chew up nails and spit them out as fish for a living.

Its one of those things I put in my "official fanfiction" category. Now the Tam one would have been awesome since we know so little about Tam al'Thor when it comes right down to it.

[Anteros]

Honestly you don't even need New Spring at all. I'd just read it last. Certainly not first. For one thing, a lot of the terms used within the story assume a certain level of knowledge about the setting.

[Rare Pink Leech]

Its one of those things I put in my "official fanfiction" category. Now the Tam one would have been awesome since we know so little about Tam al'Thor when it comes right down to it.

I agree. I think one of the saddest things about Jordan's passing is that we'll never get to read the other two prequels - how Tam came to find Rand on the slopes of Dragonmount, and how Moiraine and Lan arrived in the Two Rivers just in time. From everything I've read Jordan never wrote notes for those stories or revealed to family what would have happened, which really sucks because those stories sound cool. I don't care about the "two or three outrigger novels" he was considering, since we don't know anything about those.

[Gavin Sage]

I agree. I think one of the saddest things about Jordan's passing is that we'll never get to read the other two prequels - how Tam came to find Rand on the slopes of Dragonmount, and how Moiraine and Lan arrived in the Two Rivers just in time. From everything I've read Jordan never wrote notes for those stories or revealed to family what would have happened, which really sucks because those stories sound cool. I don't care about the "two or three outrigger novels" he was considering, since we don't know anything about those.

I can leave or take another Moiraine and Lan book, because while interesting they are complete characters really we know their secrets more or less I think. Tam though is someone we hardly know anything about. I mean the guy was a blademaster and commander, he's gotta have some stories aside from just randomly showing up on a volcano slope. Heck I've got a pet theory that Kari al'Thor might have been a Darkfriend (saved as it were by Tam) but I have no data to work with.

[Helanna]

I don't care about the "two or three outrigger novels" he was considering, since we don't know anything about those.

What about the one involving Tuon and Mat? I was really disappointed, I was looking forward to that . . . as well as you can "look forward" to anything that's likely to happen 10 years from now. I really wanted to know what happens to them. :smallfrown:

[Krrth]

What about the one involving Tuon and Mat? I was really disappointed, I was looking forward to that . . . as well as you can "look forward" to anything that's likely to happen 10 years from now. I really wanted to know what happens to them. :smallfrown:
I wasn't aware that he was doing a novel based on them. I always kinda assumed that would be covered in the last book.

[Rare Pink Leech]

One of the outrigger novels was going to be about Mat and Tuon? I didn't know that. I thought they were going to focus on minor characters.

[Gavin Sage]

Its one of those things that can be found by getting reports of people asking Jordan at various appearences I think.

I've heard it in vague terms, those books weren't seriously mapped. And not that Mat isn't fun to read I'd have to wonder what one does for a plot with that sort of book. Have them fall in love more seriously? I'd rather read the adventures of Olver myself with Mat as an aging support characters, though I'm probably in the minority on that front.

[Anteros]

I'd expect something along the lines of Mat trying to free the damane. We all know he'll never accept ruling over a people who keep captives like that, but I don't expect it to be resolved by the end of the next book.

[Gavin Sage]

Mat ruling the Seanchan heh-heh-aha-ha-ha.

That's funny it really is.

[Anteros]

Yeah, it's not like he's married to their queen, and directly next in line to the throne or anything.

[Krrth]

Not to mention that Hawkwing, the entire basis of their right to rule, has to obey Mat

[Anteros]

That's really something that Mat will probably never, ever tell Tuon. And far as I can tell, Mat doesn't really have any power to command him, just to summon.

[Krrth]

That's really something that Mat will probably never, ever tell Tuon. And far as I can tell, Mat doesn't really have any power to command him, just to summon.

That's the kicker....he does. Remember the whole fuss about darkfriends getting the horn? They have to obey the sounder of the horn. As for Tuon not finding out, I'd almost be willing to bet that it gets sounded during the next book (during the last battle).

[Anteros]

Well that's what Morraine and Verin thought, but it turned out to not be true. Remember, when the heroes show up, they told them that the horn summoned them, but they would only ride behind the Dragon banner.

[Krrth]

I read that differently. The whole "serve whomever blows the horn" is mentioned in several of the books.
I also took the "needs the standard" as preference, not an actual necessity.

[Anteros]

They went to advance and then couldn't. Then he specifically said "Something holds us here. Do you have the standard?" Or some such. Obviously they literally could not advance without it.

[Krrth]

Maybe that was the effect of having Rand there. He's the only person more powerful that Hawkwing. Rand was supposed to be proclaimed then and there, so they did so.

[Anteros]

Maybe. I'm going to just agree to disagree with you on that one though.

[Krrth]

Fair enough. There's room for many opinions. Who knows, we may both be wrong. :smallwink:

[Anteros]

Fair enough. There's room for many opinions. Who knows, we may both be wrong. :smallwink:

Well that's certainly not possible, because it would mean that I am not perfect.

[Gavin Sage]

Yeah, it's not like he's married to their queen, and directly next in line to the throne or anything.

Okay since I apparently need to spell it out.....

Okay first off succession doesn't work like that in our world and Jordan has given nothing to indicate that its like that in Seanchan.

Children inherit, not the spouse of the deceased. Being the consort is not inherently a powerful position whatever title gets attached its more an extension of the ruling monarch. And when said monarch is Tuon I'm sad to say that Mat has simply replaced being Tylin's Toy with being Tuon's Toy. Given the rather Chinese emphasis of the Seanchan this is especially so I think.

And there's the further complication of the Blood and High Blood. For all its appearences of nigh-religous support there's plenty of intrigue. Mat exercising power will need some modicrum of support among the Blood, so that one of them doesn't just say 'screw this I'm in charge now' if nothing else. And Mat has not proven even the slightest bit interested in Daes Dae'mar. And he'd be coming in as a jumped up plaything who's job is to pleasure the Empress, may she live forever, and provide for the continuation of Hawkwing's dynasty.

Now Mat may influence Tuon in some way, but she seems far to self-reliant and besides what shocking revelations are left to quake her to the core with? Freeing the damane will need some sort of cultural shift I think, and Mat doesn't seem ta'veren like that.

[Anteros]

Okay since I apparently need to spell it out.....

Okay first off succession doesn't work like that in our world and Jordan has given nothing to indicate that its like that in Seanchan.

Children inherit, not the spouse of the deceased. Being the consort is not inherently a powerful position whatever title gets attached its more an extension of the ruling monarch. And when said monarch is Tuon I'm sad to say that Mat has simply replaced being Tylin's Toy with being Tuon's Toy. Given the rather Chinese emphasis of the Seanchan this is especially so I think.

And there's the further complication of the Blood and High Blood. For all its appearences of nigh-religous support there's plenty of intrigue. Mat exercising power will need some modicrum of support among the Blood, so that one of them doesn't just say 'screw this I'm in charge now' if nothing else. And Mat has not proven even the slightest bit interested in Daes Dae'mar. And he'd be coming in as a jumped up plaything who's job is to pleasure the Empress, may she live forever, and provide for the continuation of Hawkwing's dynasty.

Now Mat may influence Tuon in some way, but she seems far to self-reliant and besides what shocking revelations are left to quake her to the core with? Freeing the damane will need some sort of cultural shift I think, and Mat doesn't seem ta'veren like that.


It's really not necessary to act condescending every time I disagree with you.
As for Mat suceeding Tuon...yes, normally he would not be next in line for the succession, but as we learned in the last novel, there is no one else to follow Tuon because Simirhage killed them all. There is only one member of the high blood left, the general who is leading the return. (I have forgotten his name.) And Mat is hardly powerless in his own right. He has his own personal army for one thing, which was I believe 20-30 thousand at last count?

Also, we know that Mat is at the least of the very high blood now, so much so that when he tells someone to call him by his name they say they cannot as it would shame them forever. We have seen people call Suroth and the other high blood by name, so it seems logical that Mat outranks them. If something were to happen to Tuon, it seems logical that Mat would assume leadership of the Seanchean on this side of the ocean.

I'm not saying that any of this will happen, as I doubt Jordan planned for Tuon to die, but it is possible. And while, no Mat obviously does not outrank Tuon I hardly think that he will be powerless. She clearly no longer thinks of him as her toy, and has come to respect him.

[Philistine]

Okay since I apparently need to spell it out.....

Okay first off succession doesn't work like that in our world and Jordan has given nothing to indicate that its like that in Seanchan.

Children inherit, not the spouse of the deceased. Being the consort is not inherently a powerful position whatever title gets attached its more an extension of the ruling monarch. And when said monarch is Tuon I'm sad to say that Mat has simply replaced being Tylin's Toy with being Tuon's Toy. Given the rather Chinese emphasis of the Seanchan this is especially so I think.

And there's the further complication of the Blood and High Blood. For all its appearences of nigh-religous support there's plenty of intrigue. Mat exercising power will need some modicrum of support among the Blood, so that one of them doesn't just say 'screw this I'm in charge now' if nothing else. And Mat has not proven even the slightest bit interested in Daes Dae'mar. And he'd be coming in as a jumped up plaything who's job is to pleasure the Empress, may she live forever, and provide for the continuation of Hawkwing's dynasty.

Now Mat may influence Tuon in some way, but she seems far to self-reliant and besides what shocking revelations are left to quake her to the core with? Freeing the damane will need some sort of cultural shift I think, and Mat doesn't seem ta'veren like that.

Why are people spoilering discussion of a series whose most recent book has been out for almost three years? Just for length? Anyway...

I believe you're correct that Mat is not in the line of succession for the Seanchan throne. If there are no children, then rule would go to the nearest surviving blood relative - no matter how distant "nearest" actually turns out to be. The purge back in Seanchan would probably have had to exterminate not only all of the High Blood, but most of the Blood more generally in order to get everyone who claimed relationship to the Hawkwings, no matter how distantly. Not to mention all of those who would claim descent from Hawkwing in the power vacuum resulting from the purge. Beyond that, however, no. The problem with the "Tuon's Toy" hypothesis is that it ignores everything that happens toward the end of KoD except Tuon completing the marriage ceremony.

When the Ebou Dar refugees reach the Band, Tuon is shown to be revisiting her previous dismissal of Mat as being merely Tylin's Toy, as he is clearly both a leader of men and possessed of a keen military mind. Her decision to marry Mat at this point could be taken as an attempt to recruit Mat to the Seanchan cause, except for his explicit statement that "You're not my enemy, but your Empire is," a point she does not argue. Note that he said "your Empire," not "the misguided bunch a few miles from here who think you're an impostor and are coming to take your head" - at this point neither Mat nor Tuon are aware that Rand is trying to arrange a meeting with the Daughter of the Nine Moons to talk truce, and they both accept that the next time they see each other may be across a battlefield. So it does not appear that she's marrying in order to secure an alliance.

What's more, I don't see how the "Tuon's Toy" hypothesis fits in with her statements that "I have always known I would marry to serve the Empire" and "I live for the Empire." If her consort is to be merely a Toy, in her own eyes or in others', then there would be no need to marry to serve the Empire. So it doesn't really make sense. Nor does it fit with her earlier statements that she didn't intend to marry Mat, but rather to make him da'covale and then use him as a Toy - clearly implying that Prince of the Ravens is something rather more than that. The implication that a Toy is not a consort, and a consort is not a Toy exists in her words even though they were (probably) spoken to discomfit Mat rather then reflecting her true intent. So it does not appear that she's marrying in order to secure a playmate.

What Mat's role in Seanchan would be, I don't know. Less than a ruler, clearly, but at the same time certainly more than a Toy. Anteros correctly points out that after the marriage ceremony is completed, the Deathwatch Guard Musenge calls Mat "Highness" and "Prince of the Ravens" (which might imply command over the raven-tattooed Seekers - or just as easily might not) and refuses to use his name; on the other hand, Mat's expectation of fighting the Seanchan in battle appears to work against the idea of him actually ruling them.

[Anteros]

We were using spoilers because someone asked us to earlier.

As to your other point, no I don't think that he currently rules the Seanchean, but he is certainly a figure of power, and very likely the next in line for the throne. (Although he certainly doesn't want it.) Sure he was not born of the blood, but we already know that people may be raised to the blood, or demoted from the blood at any time. Outside of Mat, the closest person left bloodwise to the throne is probably Berelain. Even though he is not a ruler, he is obviously going to be in a position of power, and he is obviously not ok with keeping damane prisoner. I would be very surprised if there was not a plan for some type of subplot with Mat convincing Tuon to free the damane.

[Gavin Sage]

The purge back in Seanchan would probably have had to exterminate not only all of the High Blood, but most of the Blood more generally in order to get everyone who claimed relationship to the Hawkwings, no matter how distantly.

Screw spoilers full speed ahead!

I think Semirhage is only clear that its the Imperial Family that is dead. Going further and elminating all the High and Low Blood (its who's blood afterall?) would reduce the chaos versus a thousand potentially powerful factions.



What Mat's role in Seanchan would be, I don't know. Less than a ruler, clearly, but at the same time certainly more than a Toy. Anteros correctly points out that after the marriage ceremony is completed, the Deathwatch Guard Musenge calls Mat "Highness" and "Prince of the Ravens" (which might imply command over the raven-tattooed Seekers - or just as easily might not) and refuses to use his name; on the other hand, Mat's expectation of fighting the Seanchan in battle appears to work against the idea of him actually ruling them.

Honored certainly but that's more about respecting the Empress. Spouses always have potential influence sure. The prime manner for such things is again derivative from the monarch. When you see a strong behind the throne power its generally because the actual throne is weak. Tuon respects Mat more certainly, but that's not the same even as thinking of him as an equal. And even as a equal she's isn't exactly reliant on others with decisions.

And lets not forget this is supposedly to get the damane free. Which amounts to cultural change from the top by an outsider. And Tuon didn't waver on that an inch even with some rather personal revelations. Its too much for Mat to do it by virtue of position. I personally doubt the issue will be solved in the books given the problems with trying to free damane.

Also the Seekers answer only to the Empress. This is said more then once. One notes he's put her own children to the question. Again ceremonial titles and an honor guards do not real influence make

[Anteros]

Screw spoilers full speed ahead!

Honored certainly but that's more about respecting the Empress. Spouses always have potential influence sure. The prime manner for such things is again derivative from the monarch. When you see a strong behind the throne power its generally because the actual throne is weak. Tuon respects Mat more certainly, but that's not the same even as thinking of him as an equal. And even as a equal she's isn't exactly reliant on others with decisions.

And lets not forget this is supposedly to get the damane free. Which amounts to cultural change from the top by an outsider. And Tuon didn't waver on that an inch even with some rather personal revelations. Its too much for Mat to do it by virtue of position. I personally doubt the issue will be solved in the books given the problems with trying to free damane.

Also the Seekers answer only to the Empress. This is said more then once. One notes he's put her own children to the question. Again ceremonial titles and an honor guards do not real influence make

And this is exactly what I think the plot would be. Of Mat trying to free the damane as I don't see him ever accepting a position of power in a society with slaves. Of course I don't think it will be as simple as "As Tuon's husband I declare the damane to be free!" I think it will be a central theme of conflict between them. I think it will be as you say, a cultural change, but I believe that Mat will be the catalyst for that change.(Or would if the novel were being produced.)

[Philistine]

@Anteros:
No, sorry. A consort does not succeed unless it's via their own bloodline - being married to the king/queen isn't enough. So if Tuon were to die without issue, the throne would pass to some other member of the Blood - probably in a straight-up power grab, or even via civil war. And Musenge calls Mat "Prince of Ravens," not "Son of the Nine Moons," which appears to be the title for the designated heir. Even granting that we don't know what "Prince of Ravens" does mean, "Surprise, you're in the line of succession now!" is still terribly improbable.

@Gavin Sage:
Where did I say that Mat would be an equal to Tuon? "Less than a ruler, clearly" was what I said - how did you get "equal to Tuon," who is a ruler, out of that?

And where did I say anything about freeing the damane? That's not my argument and never was. I'm taking issue with your statement that "Mat has simply replaced being Tylin's Toy with being Tuon's Toy" - a claim for which I've yet to see a single supporting argument. In particular, I'd like to know how "Consort = Toy" can be reconciled with Tuon's statement that she must "marry to serve the Empire." Because if the consort's only duty is to provide for the succession, then it would seem that she would be able to pick and choose. That would seriously undermine the idea of marrying for the Empire, rather than for herself. So, how do you justify the "Tuon's Toy" interpretation?