PDA

View Full Version : 4E: How do you visualise powers working?



holywhippet
2008-08-18, 08:41 PM
It occured to me during my last 4E gaming session to wonder how some of the class powers would play out if you were roleplaying them. I'm playing with a warlord which has some, odd powers in combat if you think about it.

Hammer and tongs: You make an attack roll against an enemy and, if it hits, an ally next to the enemy gets a free melee attack against them as well. So basically you hit the enemy and one of your allies either goes "That looks like fun, I'll have a swing as well" or "No, no, this is how you hit someone".

Inspiring word: Lets self/ally spend a healing surge and get an extra 1d6 HP back as well. Since the warlord doesn't actually use magic, basically he is saying "Suck it up you wuss".

CasESenSITItiVE
2008-08-18, 08:46 PM
Hammer and tongs: You make an attack roll against an enemy and, if it hits, an ally next to the enemy gets a free melee attack against them as well. So basically you hit the enemy and one of your allies either goes "That looks like fun, I'll have a swing as well" or "No, no, this is how you hit someone".

actually, since in d&d, it assumes that your constantly striking and parrying, and the attack roll just represents a possible hit, i would assume that power just creates an additional opening for that ally

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-18, 08:48 PM
Inspiring word: Lets self/ally spend a healing surge and get an extra 1d6 HP back as well. Since the warlord doesn't actually use magic, basically he is saying "Suck it up you wuss".

Isn't it great? :smallbiggrin:

Yes, the Warlord's healing powers all revolve around him shouting at people, except for the ones that involve him smacking them around until they wake up. He's just a big, angry man and you'd better not wuss out on him.

Orzel
2008-08-18, 08:54 PM
You never hit someone because someone else's hit looked fun?

I am currently kicking my cousin because my other cousin is having too much fun kicking him.

Inspiring word can go from an insult to a cheer to when that person you like asks if you're hurt and you're like "Nah. That didn't hurt." and play it off.

My group has 2 warlords. One's the cute girl no one wants to look bad in front off. The the other is her big angry sister who curses at you.

Glawackus
2008-08-18, 08:58 PM
Hammer and tongs: You make an attack roll against an enemy and, if it hits, an ally next to the enemy gets a free melee attack against them as well. So basically you hit the enemy and one of your allies either goes "That looks like fun, I'll have a swing as well" or "No, no, this is how you hit someone".


All I can think of is Batman Forever. "Hey, Two-Face, show me how to punch a guy!"

The New Bruceski
2008-08-18, 09:22 PM
I like Leaf on the Wind with a ranged weapon. I'm thinking a pole-vault and a push.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-18, 09:51 PM
Generally, the short descriptions in the PHB are pretty useful.

Warlord powers tend to have some of the effects that are "hardest" to RP, so here goes...

Inspiring word - "I shout 'No surrender! No quarter!', and Bob feels the strength return to his sword-arm."
Furious smash - "I roar and strike the goblin skullcleaver, inspiring Bob to join me in the attack!"
Wolf pack tactics - "I attack the goblin warrior, distracting it so Bob can shift out of the fray."
Hammer and anvil - "I move in to attack with Bob, hitting the goblin hexer from both sides!"
White raven onslaught - "I strike down the goblin blackblade, leading everyone forward to crush the remaining enemies!"

For Warlords, specifically, Aragorn's and Theoden's melodramatic speeches in LOTR are a great example of using your powers. "A sword day! A red day! Ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride! Ride to ruin, and the world's ending! Death!" That's iron dragon charge all over. Just cut them down to one sentence or so: just "Stand, Men of the West!" (Renew the troops.)

There's endless ways to RP each power, depending mostly on the style and flavor of your character. Maybe your Warlord has a more personal touch, forming a close bond with each companion, and inspiring them personally with his confidence in them and their admiration of him (Rikk from Fans!). Maybe your Warlord coldly shouts instructions and orders, but his allies know that only by obeying him are they assured victory, and that death at the hands of the enemy may very well follow if they ignore his words. Or maybe your Warlord drives his "allies" with cruel words, threats, curses, insults, and a whip, fanning their anger and directing it against the enemy.


I like Leaf on the Wind with a ranged weapon. I'm thinking a pole-vault and a push.

That'd be impressive, considering it's a melee weapon power. (It's ridiculous enough when you, for instance, use it to stab an enemy through a window.)

fireinthedust
2008-08-18, 09:56 PM
Isn't it great? :smallbiggrin:

Yes, the Warlord's healing powers all revolve around him shouting at people, except for the ones that involve him smacking them around until they wake up. He's just a big, angry man and you'd better not wuss out on him.

Ah, the healing powers of yelling. See, Mom? I've been helping my rat-faced lil' sister all these years!

Yeah, I like the "you open up another opportunity" idea for the extra strike. Personally I'd like to know about shifting spaces' justification for goblins and such. Are they just jumpy little guys?

Shazzbaa
2008-08-18, 10:05 PM
...This discussion just makes me want to play a 4e Warlord more than I did already. :smallbiggrin:

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-18, 10:09 PM
...This discussion just makes me want to play a 4e Warlord more than I did already. :smallbiggrin:

It really is the coolest class, hands down. Nobody's more of a Hero than the Warlord.

Grug
2008-08-18, 10:27 PM
I see Hammer and Tongs as the Warlord striking in a way that pins the opponent, opening an attack for his friend.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-18, 10:51 PM
Personally I'd like to know about shifting spaces' justification for goblins and such. Are they just jumpy little guys?

No, goblins are shifty - it's in their power name! It helps if you imagine them as Forest Imps (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=010919) and they cackle every time they shift.

Other great powers: Cleave with a Polearm. Not that it's hard to imagine, but I just like thinking of my Eladrin Spearmistress jabbing some guy 5 feet away and then whacking an adjacent mook with the spearbutt. It just makes me smile almost as much as Shake It Off - where the Warlord yells at someone to make them make a saving throw.
Rogue: Ow! The Hexer's Stinging Curse is going to slap me if I take a step!
Warlord: Don't be such a baby! Is little roguey going to cry because the big-bad goblin scared him? Oooo, let's all run and hide because the scaaaaary goblin is going to use his mojo on us!
Rogue: *saves* Jeez, you don't have to be such a jerk. I'm going to cut your throat when this is over with...
Warlord: What was that, nancy-boy?
Wizard: Don't mind the Rogue, he's just Unaligned.

tbarrie
2008-08-18, 10:54 PM
For Warlords, specifically, Aragorn's and Theoden's melodramatic speeches in LOTR are a great example of using your powers. "A sword day! A red day! Ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride! Ride to ruin, and the world's ending! Death!" That's iron dragon charge all over.

But the second half, at least, is Eomer's speech. (That old ham Theoden stole a lot of Eomer's best lines for the movies.:))



That'd be impressive, considering it's a melee weapon power. (It's ridiculous enough when you, for instance, use it to stab an enemy through a window.)

I'm sure he meant reach weapon. Though using Leaf on the Wind with an actual ranged weapon would be pretty awesome.

holywhippet
2008-08-18, 11:00 PM
It really is the coolest class, hands down. Nobody's more of a Hero than the Warlord.

Yeah, except the warlord tends not to benefit from their own powers as often. Most of their abilities are aimed at making allies fight better.

Dhavaer
2008-08-18, 11:02 PM
No, goblins are shifty - it's in their power name! It helps if you imagine them as Forest Imps (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=010919) and they cackle every time they shift.

It's kobolds who are shifty. Goblins use goblin tactics.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-08-18, 11:05 PM
Funny. The warlord in my group is a goblin.

holywhippet
2008-08-18, 11:07 PM
I see Hammer and Tongs as the Warlord striking in a way that pins the opponent, opening an attack for his friend.

Yes, but in theory you could have a 6 person party with 5 people as warlords (or even all 6). The first five hit a monster with hammer and tongs and the sixth one keeps making their own attack after each success. So that's 5 extra attacks, and then their own set of actions.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-18, 11:07 PM
It's kobolds who are shifty. Goblins use goblin tactics.

And their tactics are shifty. See, I always tell people that goblins are far sneakier than kobolds, but do they listen to me? Noooooo :smalltongue:

Other nice ones including Blinding Flurry when using a Hand Crossbow. I can't help but imagining a halfling quick-drawing a hand crossbow and then diving over a table while firing bolts in bullet time.

SadisticFishing
2008-08-18, 11:12 PM
Yeah, except the warlord tends not to benefit from their own powers as often. Most of their abilities are aimed at making allies fight better.

Oh no :P End of the world.

I like the idea of indirectly winning fights for my group!

chiasaur11
2008-08-18, 11:33 PM
Isn't it great? :smallbiggrin:

Yes, the Warlord's healing powers all revolve around him shouting at people, except for the ones that involve him smacking them around until they wake up. He's just a big, angry man and you'd better not wuss out on him.

Man, that makes me want to play a Warlord like Sarge from Red vs. Blue.

Morty
2008-08-19, 05:26 AM
I was thinking about RPing using Inspiring Word on a dying character and I couldn't help imagining warlord kicking a lying, bleeding fighter in the guts shouting "Stand up, you wuss or I'll have you clean the toilets with your own toothbrush, you lousy runt!".
Another one would be Thicket of Blades with a spear, something that occured to me when I was trying to make level 9 bugbear spear-using fighter. It's described as a series of fast slashes at enemies' legs, which is kind of hard to do with a spear.

nagora
2008-08-19, 05:32 AM
Isn't it great? :smallbiggrin:

Yes, the Warlord's healing powers all revolve around him shouting at people, except for the ones that involve him smacking them around until they wake up. He's just a big, angry man and you'd better not wuss out on him.
Inspired by the game "Goad the Fierce Man" from the first episode of Father Ted.

Sebastian
2008-08-19, 05:47 AM
Another one would be Thicket of Blades with a spear, something that occured to me when I was trying to make level 9 bugbear spear-using fighter. It's described as a series of fast slashes at enemies' legs, which is kind of hard to do with a spear.

It is even harder to do on enemies without legs, but that don't stop it from working. :)

Saph
2008-08-19, 06:16 AM
I was thinking about RPing using Inspiring Word on a dying character and I couldn't help imagining warlord kicking a lying, bleeding fighter in the guts shouting "Stand up, you wuss or I'll have you clean the toilets with your own toothbrush, you lousy runt!".

That's exactly how it works. In fact, the warlord doesn't even have to be near the dying character; he just shouts at him really hard and the dying guy wakes up. :P

That said, I usually don't try too hard to visualise powers in 4e. They're designed as game mechanics first, representation second, and I find the game flows faster if you don't try too hard to work out what's supposed to be happening.

Often they can be pretty funny, though. Like the "Hammer and Tongs" power fits perfectly if you're assuming Terry Pratchett mechanics. :)

Rincewind: "Ow!"
First thief: "No, no, no! What do you call that?"
Second thief: (mumble mumble)
First thief: "Speak up."
Second thief: "Overarm Belter, Mr Boggins."
First thief: "You call that an Overarm Belter? This - sorry sir, we'll have you on your feet in just a moment - this is an Overarm Belter."
Rincewind: "Ow!"
First thief: "Now, what you did was - sorry to impose, sir, this won't take a minute - what you did was this."
Rincewind: "Ow!"
First thief: "Got that? Now you try."
Rincewind: "Ow!"
First thief: "No, no, no. Look, let's start from the beginning . . ."

- Saph

Totally Guy
2008-08-19, 06:30 AM
I like the ranger utility power Crucial Advice.

"Hey guy, don't do it like that. Do it like this"
"Thanks ranger you really are helpful! ... Bloody know it all... let's not talk to him for the next 10 minutes."

Once per encounter indeed. Someone else pointed that out on these boards before me.

Then there's the two warlords that stand next to each other adjacent to an enemy.

"You! Attack him!"
"Ok!" Bop! "Now you attack him!"
"Ok!" Bop! "You should attack him now!"
"Ok!" Bop! "Why don't we just both attack him?"
"No. That's stupid, we lose a +int! You attack him!"

Grey Paladin
2008-08-19, 06:49 AM
Modern (4E) warfare mostly consists of a single high level Ranger and a troupe of cheerleaders Warlords shifting him around at high speeds and causing him to fire at the rate of a machine gun.

The day someone explains to me how the hell does Own the Battlefield works I'll gladly change my opinions, but so far it seems like trying to apply logic to 4E is like attempting to divide by zero.

Frownbear
2008-08-19, 07:51 AM
how the hell does Own the Battlefield works

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w179/kingpoopa84/1176387326941.jpg

wodan46
2008-08-19, 07:59 AM
Its works by magic awesomeness.

What I want to know is how Warlords can make people recover form injury induced unconsciousness just by yelling at them a lot.

Roderick_BR
2008-08-19, 08:14 AM
It really is the coolest class, hands down. Nobody's more of a Hero than the Warlord.
I'd say, nobody's more of a leader than the warlord. He's like a pumped up, magicless bard.
Sounds loads of fun if you like to be the tactical mastermind in the battlefield. I may try one after playing my paladin.

TwystidMynd
2008-08-19, 08:48 AM
What I want to know is how Warlords can make people recover form injury induced unconsciousness just by yelling at them a lot.

Dwarven Fighter, unconscious on the floor: "...."
Dwarven Warlord, kneeling next to his compadre: "Oy! 'Ere's free mug o' ale if'n yer t'be wakin' up, laddy!"

Eldmor
2008-08-19, 09:11 AM
I'm playing a Hobgoblin Warlord in a PbP, and he is a blast of new air in my RP-hair to play. He wantonly insults his allies and enemies mid-battle in Goblin. I've already had a few awesome moments with him, and I am sure there are plenty more to come.
Our party just got near-wiped by a dragon, and I Inspiring Word'd an unconscious ally up by punching them in the chest and telling him to get up.
His last name is also Nailgrinder. He drives nails into the joints of lazy allies. So what if he's Evil? :smalltongue: At least he isn't one of those Bane-worshiping cop-outs. :smallbiggrin:

Sebastian
2008-08-19, 09:29 AM
IMHO, trying to explain the mechanics in 4e is like talking "in-character" or using props in the other editions/systems, it can be fun and all, but it is not part of the game and the rules were not created with that in mind.

wodan46
2008-08-19, 12:33 PM
Dwarven Fighter, unconscious on the floor: "...."
Dwarven Warlord, kneeling next to his compadre: "Oy! 'Ere's free mug o' ale if'n yer t'be wakin' up, laddy!"

Dwarven Fighter: I wish I could, but as I am unconscious I can't hear you, and also you are 25 feet away from me and thus you can't help me up either.

TwystidMynd
2008-08-19, 12:40 PM
Dwarven Fighter: I wish I could, but as I am unconscious I can't hear you, and also you are 25 feet away from me and thus you can't help me up either.

If'n ye're so knocked oot, then 'ow're ye speakin' ye daft dwarf?! Up 'n at 'em!

KillianHawkeye
2008-08-19, 07:00 PM
Seeing as how I recently saw Starship Troopers again on TV, the first thing I thought of while reading this was "COME ON YOU GRUNTS, YOU WANNA LIVE FOREVER??"

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-20, 08:57 AM
Yeah, except the warlord tends not to benefit from their own powers as often. Most of their abilities are aimed at making allies fight better.

So what? It's way more useful to make the rogue or fighter hit better and harder, anyway.


I was thinking about RPing using Inspiring Word on a dying character and I couldn't help imagining warlord kicking a lying, bleeding fighter in the guts shouting "Stand up, you wuss or I'll have you clean the toilets with your own toothbrush, you lousy runt!".

You can already shake off death on your own - by getting 20+ on your death save. You just stop bleeding to death, get up, and get back in the fight, because you're that damn tough. (Or heroic.)

All the Warlord does is inspire you to do exactly that.


Another one would be Thicket of Blades with a spear, something that occured to me when I was trying to make level 9 bugbear spear-using fighter. It's described as a series of fast slashes at enemies' legs, which is kind of hard to do with a spear.

Many of the default descriptions are half-assed or plain stupid (like for piercing strike).

But in this specific case - spears can, undeed, be used to make fast slashes, but they can also be used to make fast thrusts. That was easy, see? (Check out any kung fu movie with a spear in it to see how it's done.)


The day someone explains to me how the hell does Own the Battlefield works I'll gladly change my opinions, but so far it seems like trying to apply logic to 4E is like attempting to divide by zero.

Man, you wouldn't expect roleplayers to lack for imagination.

"In the heat of the battle, Willy the Warlord's clever tactics have gotten the enemies right where he wants them - like so."

Is this 3.5 thinking or something? It's the same thinking that can't accept encounter and daily powers, seems to me. It's not about what your character is capable of expliticly and literally doing as an action that takes 3 seconds or so. It's about dramatic combat, where heroic feats are performed and interesting things happen.

Morty
2008-08-20, 09:04 AM
You can already shake off death on your own - by getting 20+ on your death save. You just stop bleeding to death, get up, and get back in the fight, because you're that damn tough. (Or heroic.)

All the Warlord does is inspire you to do exactly that.

When you're dying, you're unconscious. I don't think anything can inspire you anymore when you've blacked out. Heroicness has nothing to do with it.

Many of the default descriptions are half-assed or plain stupid (like for piercing strike).

But in this specific case - spears can, undeed, be used to make fast slashes, but they can also be used to make fast thrusts. That was easy, see? (Check out any kung fu movie with a spear in it to see how it's done.)

Well, that wasn't too hard. Still, the default description leaves something to be desired. Also, Thicket of Blades deals 3[W] damage, and it's hard to to this much damage with a spear using fast thrusts. Not to mention that it works on things that have no legs, while the description mentions slashing at opponents' legs.


Is this 3.5 thinking or something? It's the same thinking that can't accept encounter and daily powers, seems to me. It's not about what your character is capable of expliticly and literally doing as an action that takes 3 seconds or so. It's about dramatic combat, where heroic feats are performed and interesting things happen.

Some pople are simply used to -or prefer to- taking stuff more literally, without mixing dramatics into it. You can't blame them for that.

Ulzgoroth
2008-08-20, 09:23 AM
Some pople are simply used to -or prefer to- taking stuff more literally, without mixing dramatics into it. You can't blame them for that.
Indeed. If I were to create a list of features I wanted in an RPG, 'dramatic' anything would not be on it. It would also be clearly contraindicated by the top few items.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-20, 09:28 AM
Indeed. If I were to create a list of features I wanted in an RPG, 'dramatic' anything would not be on it. It would also be clearly contraindicated by the top few items.

So about half of existing RPGs aren't for you, and that includes D&D 4E. Boohoo?

Morty
2008-08-20, 09:33 AM
Indeed. If I were to create a list of features I wanted in an RPG, 'dramatic' anything would not be on it. It would also be clearly contraindicated by the top few items.

Same here, but please, let's not turn this into yet another edition war. The facts are, some powers in 4ed need to be explained by drama or else they don't work well. Which means people who for whatever reason aren't used to using drama in their games might encounter problems.


So about half of existing RPGs aren't for you, and that includes D&D 4E. Boohoo?

Possibly, but while I don't know about Ulzgoroth I myself don't care. I have enough time and money for only few RPGs anyway. Also, I'd rather not let this so far amusing thread turn into yet another "4ed yay or nay" discussion, so that's all you'll hear about this subject from me.

Ulzgoroth
2008-08-20, 09:51 AM
Sorry, not trying to raise any demons...

Possibly, but while I don't know about Ulzgoroth I myself don't care. I have enough time and money for only few RPGs anyway. Also, I'd rather not let this so far amusing thread turn into yet another "4ed yay or nay" discussion, so that's all you'll hear about this subject from me.
Yeah, I'm not at all bothered by the existence of products that don't do anything I want. Never mind money, I don't have time or interest to read anywhere near half the RPGs out there.

I am a little annoyed at 4e being one of them.

(I'm not playing, Tsotha-lanti. If you want to raise demons, go find someone else to help you.)

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-20, 10:07 AM
I am a little annoyed at 4e being one of them.

Why? Why does that annoy you more than, say, HeroQuest (probably, almost certainly) not being a game for you?

Grey Paladin
2008-08-20, 06:09 PM
Tsotha Lanti: I'll bite.

The fact I can decide at any point that I was employing brilliant tactics and suddenly slide everyone 30ft despite not stating that I was doing so previously is what truly bothers me.

This is not 3E thinking, this is common sense - if you did not state you are doing something, (unless its totally trivial) you don't.

The anger many experience is caused by the same reason edition wars were born - the game suddenly morphed into a different genre and has abandoned its previous fans. 2E to 3E was like Civilization turning into an RTS, 3E to 4E is 3E but with combat being replaced by timed matches of Sudoku.

The New Bruceski
2008-08-20, 06:42 PM
The anger many experience is caused by the same reason edition wars were born - the game suddenly morphed into a different genre and has abandoned its previous fans. 2E to 3E was like Civilization turning into an RTS, 3E to 4E is 3E but with combat being replaced by timed matches of Sudoku.

Yeah, no bias in that analogy...

Grey Paladin
2008-08-20, 06:50 PM
Yeah, no bias in that analogy...
To me it seems it is you who is biased - to some Sudoku is the best game ever, its just not my cup of tea.

quillbreaker
2008-08-20, 08:55 PM
While we are talking about how awesome Warlords are...

I was in a new 4th edition game that started at 3rd level (why? dunno), and I made a Doppleganger Warlord. (Everyone is led better by someone of their own race!) The first session, I used a sword and shield. I note that the sample warlord I found on the net also uses a sword and shield. And to that, I answer, where's your polearm? I used a polearm the second game and it was a godsend.

Given that warlords can't use heavy shields, you'd be using a light shield, which gets you one point of armor class and one point of reflex defense. Or, if you give that up and use a polearm, you get reach. Reach lets you melee something - and use your powers - without automatically putting yourself in a situation where you'll have to provoke an AoO to move away.

As a warlord I found myself wanting to move a lot - to put as many people within reach of Hold The Line, for instance. Wolf Pack Tactics also gives you a lot more choices when you are at reach distance, as you can affect more players in more squares.

So, when making your warlord, give that polearm a second look.

Cuddly
2008-08-20, 09:22 PM
Seeing as how I recently saw Starship Troopers again on TV, the first thing I thought of while reading this was "COME ON YOU GRUNTS, YOU WANNA LIVE FOREVER??"

I believe it's "COME ON YOU APES, YOU WANNA LIVE FOREVER!?"

Crowheart
2008-08-20, 11:21 PM
With concerns to how powers are visualized, you have to understand that 4e seems to favor a more abstract representation of how things are working. As a matter of fact, a lot of how the game rolls is abstract thinking.

Take the concept of minions for instance: These creatures only have 1 hp, thus to most of us, this seems terribly weak. The truth, however, is that this 1 hp is not representative of it's physical health, but rather is role as a "mook" to be slashed aside as the heroes drive on toward the leader. That is certainly not a simulation of real life, but then again, neither is the concept of hp in general.

The bottom line is that some prefer a more simulationist real-like way of arbitrating their imaginations and others prefer to be more abstract. There's absolutely nothing wrong with either way. I like the abstract way of 4e. I also like to play Battetech which is very to simulation. I suppose it depends on what mood strikes me at the time.

To me, the editions war is not totally about D&D edition changes, but rather about how one prefers to play and moderate their own game. To me, 3e and 4e are different enough to consider them two different games, and I enjoy both considerably. I guess I'm one of the lucky few who has the time and inclination to play and/or run both systems.

Dausuul
2008-08-20, 11:48 PM
Tsotha Lanti: I'll bite.

The fact I can decide at any point that I was employing brilliant tactics and suddenly slide everyone 30ft despite not stating that I was doing so previously is what truly bothers me.

This is not 3E thinking, this is common sense - if you did not state you are doing something, (unless its totally trivial) you don't.

Yeah. For instance, it would be totally unrealistic to be able to learn to cast wizard spells without spending years studying magic first - just because you killed a bunch of kobolds.

...What?

chiasaur11
2008-08-21, 12:00 AM
Yeah. For instance, it would be totally unrealistic to be able to learn to cast wizard spells without spending years studying magic first - just because you killed a bunch of kobolds.

...What?

Maybe they were magic kobolds?

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-21, 12:09 AM
The fact I can decide at any point that I was employing brilliant tactics and suddenly slide everyone 30ft despite not stating that I was doing so previously is what truly bothers me.

This is not 3E thinking, this is common sense - if you did not state you are doing something, (unless its totally trivial) you don't.

That's not how a ton of games work, though. It's more of a storytelling approach. Let's take HeroQuest combat, for instance:

"Okay, I bid all my points - that's 86. What'd you roll? Okay, so that's a major victory for me - he loses 86 points... down to -10, you say? So my relentless attack have forced him to the edge of the cliff. With one last feint at his head and a sweep at his legs, I knock him down and off the ledge, sending him plummeting to the bottom."

Or using a magic item you've marked on your sheet in the same game (the entry, in it's entirety, would be "name number" - like, "The Wooden Man 17".

"I pull out the Wooden Man, and, er... yeah, I guess it's like this doll-sized wooden statuette, and it was, er... gifted to my ancestors by the Elves, yeah! So I show it to the Elves as a sign of friendship, right? That'll give me a bonus."

Abstracted storytelling isn't that rare at all, frankly (and can work for any game).

Similarly, daily and encounter powers make as as much sense to me as the whole "Every attack roll is actually a bunch of attacks but only one chance to hit" (and every hit doesn't necessarily even signify one hit - it could be several "lighter" hits), and not having parries and dodges.


The anger many experience is caused by the same reason edition wars were born - the game suddenly morphed into a different genre and has abandoned its previous fans. 2E to 3E was like Civilization turning into an RTS, 3E to 4E is 3E but with combat being replaced by timed matches of Sudoku.

Man, this is bizarre. The game didn't change - no one came over and re-wrote your AD&D or D&D 3.X rulebooks. The new game is a different game.


...

Damned well put.

Grey Paladin
2008-08-21, 05:55 AM
Dausuul: If you do not roleplay your training for a (in-game) year or so (which is still ridiculosly fast) you only have yourself to blame.

I'd have no problem with Own the Battlefield if it actually took 10-20 rounds and a logical description of your magnificent stratagem to work.

Tsotha-Lanti: But that's the exact point, previous editions leaned to the opposite direction.

4E is not a different game, its a sequel, and as one I'd expect it to keep to the spirit of its prequels.

As to the abstraction of attacks, AD&D rounds were 1 minute long, do you really want to roll 10-60 Dice a round, each with 2% to succeed and hit for a single point?

Parries and dodges are represented by your Dexterity modifier, hence its effect upon AC.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-21, 06:24 AM
4E is not a different game, its a sequel, and as one I'd expect it to keep to the spirit of its prequels.

Heroic adventure with fighters, wizards, rogues, and clerics? Killing dragons, orcs, goblins, and giants and looting their treasure? Gaining XP from fights and leveling up?

Grey Paladin
2008-08-21, 06:37 AM
Heroic adventure with fighters, wizards, rogues, and clerics? Killing dragons, orcs, goblins, and giants and looting their treasure? Gaining XP from fights and leveling up?

You have just described over 100 games, all of different genres. the aspect unique to D&D was always its attempt at abstract simulation while retaining playability and a gamist side.

Frownbear
2008-08-21, 06:41 AM
You have just described over 100 games, all of different genres. the aspect unique to D&D was always its attempt at abstract simulation while retaining playability and a gamist side.

D&D was never an attempt at abstract simulation! You can check your AD&D DMG for Gary Gygax's thoughts on that.

Morty
2008-08-21, 06:42 AM
And yet another thread has turned into edition war. I wish I could say I'm surprised.:smallsigh: Aren't you people ever tired of repeating the same arguments over and over again?

"4ed is abstract, you should accept it!"
"I don't like abstraction!"
"Well, D&D was never a simulation!"
As so on...

Grey Paladin
2008-08-21, 06:48 AM
Frownbear: Intention and result are two utterly different things, remember that while Gygax was one of the two original creators the game has passed through the hands of many others.

M0rt: I'm trying every possible combination in hope of getting the right one.

Sebastian
2008-08-21, 07:24 AM
Yeah. For instance, it would be totally unrealistic to be able to learn to cast wizard spells without spending years studying magic first - just because you killed a bunch of kobolds.

...What?

Are you saying that it would be realistic learning how to cast spells after years of study? Are you sure?

Zid
2008-08-21, 07:46 AM
Dausuul: If you do not roleplay your training for a (in-game) year or so (which is still ridiculosly fast) you only have yourself to blame.

However, training doesn´t give you experience, killing things does.

Grey Paladin
2008-08-21, 08:12 AM
However, training doesn´t give you experience, killing things does.

Depends on the edition- this problem was mainly present in 3E.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-21, 09:28 AM
Depends on the edition- this problem was mainly present in 3E.

Say what?

In AD&D, the problem was, if anything, worse. (Remember those letters in Scale Mail where DMs whined about their players killing barmaids to put them over the top for the next level? It didn't even occur to many people that you shouldn't get XP for anything and everything you kill.)

3.X is more clear on the whole "if it isn't a challenge, you get no XP" bit.

And then there was the whole ridiculous "you get XP for treasure" thing, and the more ridicuous "thieves get even more XP for treasure!" thing. I guess thieves didn't level up fast enough as is? Gah! (It also synergised hilariously with Council of Wyrms - I never noticed any mention of the "XP equal to gold value of treasure found" -rule not being in effect. Now, dragons needed gold in their hoard equal to their XP in order to advance in levels... which means that dragons don't actually need to defeat enemies or the like, they just need to accumulate treasure.)

mangosta71
2008-08-21, 09:37 AM
And how do you accumulate treasure? The fastest and easiest method is slaughtering hundreds and taking their stuff.

Grey Paladin
2008-08-21, 09:47 AM
I do not think you're thinking of the same problem as I am- the only source of EXP being the death of foes (which is something 4E actually did better then 3E).

Everyone got EXP for treasure, Thieves got bonus EXP for it.
Everyone got EXP for Fighting, Warriors got more for it.
Everyone got EXP for following the tenants of their god and alignment, Priests got more for it
Everyone got EXP for learning spells and how to use magical items, Wizards got far more for it. (Though admittingly, only Wizards and Bards could actually learn spells)

Everyone got EXP from training with characters of their class (or the class they're hoping to dual to) who were their level or higher.

Admittingly, the last three are from splatbooks, but I believe an edition is defined by all material published for it.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-21, 09:55 AM
Everyone got EXP from training with characters of their class (or the class they're hoping to dual to) who were their level or higher.

Admittingly, the last three are from splatbooks, but I believe an edition is defined by all material published for it.

That explains it. Which splatbook? I've never heard of that.

3.X handled XP very well, really; you got it for "overcoming a challenge." The DMG has an explicit example about getting the XP for a minotaur guarding a vault by circumventing the minotaur and getting into the vault.

Grey Paladin
2008-08-21, 10:29 AM
Tsotah-Lanti: Would it annihilate my argument if I admitted I don't remember?

As to 3E - by default, in written material, such was rarely used, if you go by what everyone used practically (RAP as opposed to RAI) then yes, 3E had no problems in this area, and neither did any edition, honestly.

In short, 4E is a great game, if it was called Mazes&Manticores none would complain about it - the fact its a sequel to a game of a different genre is what brings it its bad rep.

mangosta71
2008-08-21, 11:07 AM
Back on topic, I figure any power or ability that marks an opponent is vigorous taunting/trash-talking. I can just see a paladin shrieking obscenities at a kobold. Or speculating as to the virtue of someone's mother. All done for the glory of Heironeus.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-21, 11:52 AM
Back on topic, I figure any power or ability that marks an opponent is vigorous taunting/trash-talking. I can just see a paladin shrieking obscenities at a kobold. Or speculating as to the virtue of someone's mother. All done for the glory of Heironeus.

Yeah, except Paladin Marking is more of the "zapping" kind. It's much more of the "By the power of Greyskull Pelor, I will test your mettle in the field of arms!" and if the baddie decides to smack someone else, Pelor drops a train on him and says "hey you, play by the rules!"

Fighter though, definitely more amenable to a "yo mama" style.

mangosta71
2008-08-21, 12:00 PM
Yeah, except Paladin Marking is more of the "zapping" kind.

Is that specified? I only have pdf versions of the books, so I can't carry them around and browse them when I'm bored at work. Well, at least not until I get a new flash drive...

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-21, 12:03 PM
Is that specified? I only have pdf versions of the books, so I can't carry them around and browse them when I'm bored at work. Well, at least not until I get a new flash drive...

Yeah, Paladin Marking is a ranged minor action that, in addition to putting a -2 to hit on Marked Baddies attacking someone else, the Baddie also takes 1d8+CHA radiant damage.

mangosta71
2008-08-21, 01:20 PM
Yeah, Paladin Marking is a ranged minor action that, in addition to putting a -2 to hit on Marked Baddies attacking someone else, the Baddie also takes 1d8+CHA radiant damage.

The bonus damage from CHA just goes to show how effective his "yo mama" joke is.:smalltongue:

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-21, 01:24 PM
The bonus damage from CHA just goes to show how effective his "yo mama" joke is.:smalltongue:

Hmm... and it would explain why, to maintain the Mark, the Paladin must be "all up in the grill" of his target.

What can I say? You make a compelling argument :smallbiggrin:

MartinHarper
2008-08-21, 01:30 PM
When you're dying, you're unconscious. I don't think anything can inspire you anymore when you've blacked out.

http://www.rnceus.com/uncon/unper.html
"Twenty-five percent of all unconscious patients can hear, understand, and emotionally respond to what is happening in their external environment."

So, I reckon it's fine if the Warlord says "head towards the light" or whatever, and that helps someone get out of unconsciousness.

mangosta71
2008-08-21, 01:36 PM
Hmm... and it would explain why, to maintain the Mark, the Paladin must be "all up in the grill" of his target.

What can I say? You make a compelling argument :smallbiggrin:

You broke me :smallbiggrin:

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-21, 01:54 PM
More abilities:

Prime Shot. I can't help but shout "Boom! Headshot!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0076.html) whenever I get that +1. Sure, it's not "fluff," except that I can totally imagine an Infernal Warlock using Hellish Rebuke to set someone's head on fire with that phrase.

Morty
2008-08-21, 02:12 PM
Another fun one would be rogue's Sly Flourish. Sure, it's rather easy to describe, but think of the possible descriptions... like rogue doing a double backflip before finally stabbing the monster for 7 damage.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-21, 02:26 PM
Another fun one would be rogue's Sly Flourish. Sure, it's rather easy to describe, but think of the possible descriptions... like rogue doing a double backflip before finally stabbing the monster for 7 damage.

Or with certain weapons!

Sly Flourishing Halflings with Hand Crossbows become The Gunslinger (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheGunslinger), often with wide-brimmed hats, pulled way down low :smallbiggrin:

Tormsskull
2008-08-21, 02:52 PM
I also try not to visualize the powers too much. I try to treat combat as a separate game from the story part. Kind of like how in the way of some console RPGs you have special powers you can use in combat but outside of combat the characters never really even reference them.

My favorite kind is when you have one or more characters that can heal wounds/bring people back from the dead, and then as part of a non-combat encounter someone is dieing, and it never occurs to anyone to cast Cure2 or whatever.

Artanis
2008-08-21, 03:53 PM
Fighter: I...I don't know if I can keep this up.
Warlord: Remember that time when we were fighting the goblins in the village?
Fighter: Yeah...
Warlord: Remember what I did to the Wizard who wussed out and tried to run away?
Fighter: Yeah...
Warlord: You're being a wuss right now.
Fighter: *gulp* ...uh...back to the fight, then!
Warlord: That's the spirit.

Nerzul9000
2008-08-22, 06:56 AM
No, goblins are shifty - it's in their power name! It helps if you imagine them as Forest Imps (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=010919) and they cackle every time they shift.

Other great powers: Cleave with a Polearm. Not that it's hard to imagine, but I just like thinking of my Eladrin Spearmistress jabbing some guy 5 feet away and then whacking an adjacent mook with the spearbutt. It just makes me smile almost as much as Shake It Off - where the Warlord yells at someone to make them make a saving throw.
Rogue: Ow! The Hexer's Stinging Curse is going to slap me if I take a step!
Warlord: Don't be such a baby! Is little roguey going to cry because the big-bad goblin scared him? Oooo, let's all run and hide because the scaaaaary goblin is going to use his mojo on us!
Rogue: *saves* Jeez, you don't have to be such a jerk. I'm going to cut your throat when this is over with...
Warlord: What was that, nancy-boy?
Wizard: Don't mind the Rogue, he's just Unaligned.

for that spoiler there, i'd just like to add...you're my freaking hero :P

Totally Guy
2008-08-22, 07:06 AM
Hmm... and it would explain why, to maintain the Mark, the Paladin must be "all up in the grill" of his target.

What can I say? You make a compelling argument :smallbiggrin:

I had the problem of the paladin marking a target that was not in combat.

"I will divine challenge you, Librarian stamping those books! Go ahead, stamp another and find out whether that counts as an attack. If you use that rubber stamp again it will be on me!"

Would be a good way to stop a mugging though. "Kick that woman again while she's down and you will feel the wrath of a deity! My deity!"

Nerzul9000
2008-08-22, 07:24 AM
funny
chep trick
but effective....
like an evil kobalt bard
*laugh machivillanly*

TwystidMynd
2008-08-22, 08:25 AM
http://www.rnceus.com/uncon/unper.html
"Twenty-five percent of all unconscious patients can hear, understand, and emotionally respond to what is happening in their external environment."

So, I reckon it's fine if the Warlord says "head towards the light" or whatever, and that helps someone get out of unconsciousness.

So does this mean that 25% of unconscious patients are PCs?

And... therefor the other 75% are redshirts? :smalleek:

Nerzul9000
2008-08-22, 08:32 AM
A: Exactly... :)

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-22, 11:48 AM
I had the problem of the paladin marking a target that was not in combat.

"I will divine challenge you, Librarian stamping those books! Go ahead, stamp another and find out whether that counts as an attack. If you use that rubber stamp again it will be on me!"

Would be a good way to stop a mugging though. "Kick that woman again while she's down and you will feel the wrath of a deity! My deity!"

Well, unless the Paladin stayed adjacent to the Librarian every round, it would just wear off. Plus, as a DM, I would have the Paladin take a jolt from his diety for abusing his god-given powers.

But yeah, the mugging example works great. It's very nice if you carry around a sling to "tag" the muggers from a goodly distance away. You don't have to hit, after all, to maintain the Mark :smallwink: