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NPCMook
2008-08-19, 05:21 AM
My character recently died in out 4e campaign, using the Forgotten Realms preview material I created a level 3 Genasi Swordmage, seeing an opportunity to try out some mounted combat I spent a little more than the 100 gold you would normally be allowed during character creation, 15 gold extra, and bought a Riding Horse.

I took the Mounted Combat feat, and the DM agreed that it would be okay to play the character, once we start the session the DM decides to house rule last minute since I'm only riding a "Riding Horse" I would have to make a check to see if I am thrown off the horse for every attack I make... Should I dispute this with my DM, or just forgo the horse and choose a different Feat?

I took both Mounted Combat and Toughness feats

Frownbear
2008-08-19, 05:23 AM
That's both pointless and goes against the whole grain of 4E.

Triaxx
2008-08-19, 06:05 AM
Yes, because you never fight from horseback in Morepigs. :smallsigh:

I don't see a problem. I'd have to look at Mounted Combat in 4e, but it might be easier to make the checks until you can trade up to a Warhorse. It's always a good idea not to PO the DM unless you can back it up by RAW.

Even then you might find yourself fighting encounters over your head.

Dhavaer
2008-08-19, 06:20 AM
My character recently died in out 4e campaign, using the Forgotten Realms preview material I created a level 3 Genasi Swordmage, seeing an opportunity to try out some mounted combat I spent a little more than the 100 gold you would normally be allowed during character creation, 15 gold extra, and bought a Riding Horse.

Just checking; you do know that the 100gp budget is just for level 1, right?

Eikre
2008-08-19, 06:26 AM
Clearly your DM just doesn't want you to have a 10 square move speed when you're outside, because he's not even giving you a choice. You have the option to pay a feat, a bunch of money, and a draconian penalty for a circumstantial speed bonus that only works outside, or actually be an effective character. Think about it.

Maybe you need to read up on Mounted Combat, anyway. Page 42 of the DMG. Anyone can use a mount without spending the feat, it's just that the feat gives you two things: One, it allows you to use your own movement-based skills while mounted instead of the mount's. That means you're always at least as effective at moving around when you're in the saddle as you are when you're just on your feet. The other benefit depends on the mount; most mounts give you a little aside when you charge, but some of them have other special "Mount" abilities.

Well, the Riding horse doesn't have any special Mount ability, and his attack is pretty terrible so you're never going to use it. All you're getting out of the Mounted Combat feat is the opportunity to stay in the saddle when you're sneaking or jumping, but really, how often is that even going to come up? The horse has a +4 STR anyway, it's not like without the feat the horse will be incompetent.

When the DM is going to punish you for wanting to be inconsequentially decent at what you do, don't even bother.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-19, 06:28 AM
My character recently died in out 4e campaign, using the Forgotten Realms preview material I created a level 3 Genasi Swordmage, seeing an opportunity to try out some mounted combat I spent a little more than the 100 gold you would normally be allowed during character creation, 15 gold extra, and bought a Riding Horse.

I took the Mounted Combat feat, and the DM agreed that it would be okay to play the character, once we start the session the DM decides to house rule last minute since I'm only riding a "Riding Horse" I would have to make a check to see if I am thrown off the horse for every attack I make... Should I dispute this with my DM, or just forgo the horse and choose a different Feat?

I took both Mounted Combat and Toughness feats

I'd probably say, flatly, "Clearly, you don't want me doing mounted combat. How about I just rework my character concept and ditch the feat?"

Last-second house rules are generally bad. :smallyuk:

fractic
2008-08-19, 06:37 AM
I agree with the rest, ask your DM if he just doesn't want you to do mounted combat in general. If he doesn't just retrain the feat.

If he does and his problem is only with the riding horse then get a warhorse. Since you're level 3 you'll actually get something out of that mounted combat feat. Now a warhorse costs 680 GP the starting budget for a level 3 character is free mundane equipment, 3 magic items of levels 2,3 and 4 and 520 GP. So you are a little short on GP, but if your DM says you can have a warhorse you should be able to get him to agree to only get 2 magic items and enough gold for the warhorse.

Charity
2008-08-19, 07:03 AM
OK lots of 'issues' flying about here.

As a 3rd level chracter you would normally start with a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level magic item and enough cash for another 2nd level item.

Your DM may be uneasy with you riding into battle on a riding horse, but there is a perfectly suited Warhorse in the PHB a snip at 680GP (about the same as a 3rd lvl magic item) not only is this animal trained for war and thus not going to force you to make rolls at the first sign of danger it will also provide a niffty +5 bonus to damage rolls on charge attacks (incidentally there is little point getting the mounted combat feat for an animal without a mount ability)...
Your DM might think you are trying to get mounted combat on the cheep spending a measly 75 gold on a riding horse... and as the description in the MM of riding horses "Riding horses usually panic and bolt when faced with danger, striking out with their hooves only when trapped or startled." he might have a point.
If mounted combat is going to be a big thing for your character, I advise you spend the money on a warhorse, trading your lvl 3 item for one if nesissary.

Jarlax
2008-08-19, 08:52 AM
I took the Mounted Combat feat, and the DM agreed that it would be okay to play the character, once we start the session the DM decides to house rule last minute since I'm only riding a "Riding Horse" I would have to make a check to see if I am thrown off the horse for every attack I make... Should I dispute this with my DM, or just forgo the horse and choose a different Feat?

your DM seems to have come to the assumption that an animal can either be ridden into combat or it cant (the 3rd edition definition). i would argue that 4th edition instead assumes all mounts can be ridden into combat, but those of the [MOUNT] type grant additional bonuses to the rider as a result of being trained for mounted combat. otherwise if you open the system to the idea of creatures that can be ridden but not ridden into combat you raise questions like:

how is your DM determining what is or is not a "combat mount" is it case by case? does he just get to say so?

if your supposed to be making some kind of check each time you attack then what check is it?

riding is gone as a skill so did he put it back in?

is it just a trivial ability check?

4th edition doesn't care for these very 3rd edition complications. if it meets the VERY loose definition of a mount in the DMG (larger than your. large size or larger, willing and able to carry) then 4th edition assumes its a mount and it will carry you into combat.

NPCMook
2008-08-19, 08:49 PM
Well then it seems Both him and I over looked the amount of money I get for starting a level 3 character, I may have to talk to him about this and possible trade out the horse.

My DM is one of those competitive types of people, one of our characters has the Quick Draw feat and used it to drink a potion in 1 action, he began to argue this that well then perhaps I will have the monsters smash your potions if they are going to be on your belt! So I can see he probably just doesn't want me having the save against being knocked prone, or the movement of 10.

So when I see him Friday, I may discuss with him if I can opt out one of my Magical items for the Warhorse. The whole point of this was to actually give me DM a challenge since he seems to enjoy throwing nothing but challenging level encounters at us.

@Jarlax: It would have been a Trivial check, he would roll a d20 and then I would roll my d20 and have to beat his result with no modifiers

Charity
2008-08-20, 02:17 AM
^ that is not a trivial check, you would have failed that check 50% of the time, for an experianced rider even on a riding horse during a forest fire that seems a bit harsh... anyway talk it out, trade an item for a warhorse, charge stuff alot.

Colmarr
2008-08-20, 02:24 AM
Out of interest, are there any other useful [Mount] abilites that a PC might reasonably expect to get access to?

I don't have access to the MM or DMG, and the warhorse bonus [+5 damage on charge attacks] is nice enough to make me curious about whether my melee cleric should look at taking Mounted Combat.

Dhavaer
2008-08-20, 02:27 AM
Out of interest, are there any other useful [Mount] abilites that a PC might reasonably expect to get access to?

I don't have access to the MM or DMG, and the warhorse bonus [+5 damage on charge attacks] is nice enough to make me curious about whether my melee cleric should look at taking Mounted Combat.

Wyverns give +2 to defences, I think. Rimefire Griffins give fire and cold resistance. Normal griffins and hippogriffs give something decent, but I can't remember what.

Rockphed
2008-08-20, 03:05 AM
I seem to remember the rage drake having an interesting ability, though I can't remember what.

NPCMook
2008-08-20, 04:14 AM
Well originally I wasn't aware of the rules for starting a character at a higher level, so I had only spent 100 Gold + 15 extra, mostly I wanted to add a little bit of flair to the combat since the DM likes to throw 8 or so Guard Drakes at us in a Cave! (Guard Drakes gain a +9 To hit and Damage Bonus when standing next to another Guard Drake) I also took it even though I'm a Swordmage to be able to use my ability checks instead of the horses.

Several Mountable Monsters have some interesting abilities, I believe the Dire Wolf grants Combat Advantage when an ally is just adjacent to the monster you are going to attack

Note: most monsters can be ridden as mounts being that they are at least 1 size larger than your character, some just don't grant special abilities while mounted

Dhavaer
2008-08-20, 04:15 AM
I seem to remember the rage drake having an interesting ability, though I can't remember what.

+2 to attack and damage in melee.

Jarlax
2008-08-20, 06:53 AM
Out of interest, are there any other useful [Mount] abilites that a PC might reasonably expect to get access to?.

Dire Boars deal extra damage on a charge, knock the target back two squares and leave them prone.

a Celestial charger deals radiant damage on a charge

Dire wolves grant combat advantage to riders on any target if there is an additional ally that is not the mount adjacent to that target.

other creatures have powers not related to the mount descriptor that make them good mounts. unicorns for example have the power to heal and teleport 5 squares.

Colmarr
2008-08-20, 07:00 AM
Interesting.

Second question, is there any RAW mechanic for giving a warhorse a snowflake's chance in hell of surviving a battle between an epic creature and its rider? Such as rules for levelling up mounts? A la Brego and Shadowfax in LOTR

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-20, 08:24 AM
What sort of check? There's no Ride skill and no riding rules in 4E, other than Mounted Combat (which gives you whatever benefit the mount grants). It doesn't make any sort of sense, either - it'd almost make sense if you had to make a check to avoid being unhorsed when the horse attacks, or is attacked, but why would you fall off when you attack? Is this pre-stirrups-and-saddles?

There's no reason for this kind of ad-hoc "balancing." Mounts are balanced as is because they reduce the total experience the party gains from an encounter by their own experience value.

Edit:


Interesting.

Second question, is there any RAW mechanic for giving a warhorse a snowflake's chance in hell of surviving a battle between an epic creature and its rider? Such as rules for levelling up mounts? A la Brego and Shadowfax in LOTR

Page 184 of the DMG. Again, since the mount deducts its XP from the XP total of an encounter, like any and all allies do, it's automagically balanced. (In practice, this means that the DM should / will raise the XP total of every encounter by the sum of the XP values of the party's mounts and allies to get an encounter of any desired level.)

Ecalsneerg
2008-08-20, 08:29 AM
Wyverns give +2 to defences, I think. Rimefire Griffins give fire and cold resistance. Normal griffins and hippogriffs give something decent, but I can't remember what.

4e gives prices for wyverns, and rules to make them useful mounts?!

Must... resist... spending... money

fractic
2008-08-20, 08:56 AM
Out of interest, are there any other useful [Mount] abilites that a PC might reasonably expect to get access to?

Here is a list of mounts from the MM with a mount keyword power

Warhorse, lvl 3+, +5 damage on charge attacks
Rage Drake, lvl 5+, +2 to attack and damage on melee attacks,
Hippogriff, lvl 5+, +1 to defenses while flying
Dire Wolf, lvl 5+, rider gains combat advantage if an ally is adjacent to enemy
Hipppogriff Dreadmount, lvl 5+, move 1 square less on forced movement
Dire Boar, lvl 6+, extra attack by boar when charging
Griffon, lvl 7+, griffon makes 2 claw attacks when rider charges
Celestial Charger, lvl 10+, 2d6 extra damage on charge attacks
Manticore, lvl 10+, Manticore's attacks get +2
Blade Spire, lvl 10+, blade spider gets a free attack when rider attacks
Wyvern, lvl 10+, +2 to all defenses while flying
Nightmare, lvl 13+, resist 20 fire
Rimefire Griffon, lvl 20+, resist 10 cold and fire

Strangely absent from this list are dwarfs dragons. But then again they are solo monsters and plenty powerful as it is. Lots of mounts at level 5 and 10 (including flying ones with prices listed) and not so much choice for high level mounts with powers.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-20, 09:25 AM
4e gives prices for wyverns, and rules to make them useful mounts?!

No, and yes, respectively.


Strangely absent from this list are dwarfs dragons. But then again they are solo monsters and plenty powerful as it is. Lots of mounts at level 5 and 10 (including flying ones with prices listed) and not so much choice for high level mounts with powers.

I'm still homebrewing that bit myself, for 4E Dragonlance. But nerfing dragons from solo to elite is surprisingly easy - you pretty much just take off an action point, reduce the save bonus to +2, and reduce hit points appropriately.

If I do get non-elite dragon mounts done, I'll be sure to post them (along with my draconians, elite dragons, etc.).

RTGoodman
2008-08-20, 09:52 AM
Note: most monsters can be ridden as mounts being that they are at least 1 size larger than your character, some just don't grant special abilities while mounted

Just a note, but I think that in 4E all mounts MUST be Large or larger, even if you're a Small-sized rider. I can't check right now, but I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere in the DMG or maybe PHB.


I'm still homebrewing that bit myself, for 4E Dragonlance.

I've been on sort of a Dragonlance kick recently, reading a bunch of the novels and flipping through the 3.x books, and I was thinking of doing the same thing. I'd be interested to see some of the stuff once you're done.

MammonAzrael
2008-08-20, 10:55 AM
Don't forget that while the mounts mentioned above are the only ones with special abilities while mounted, they're not the only creatures you can ride. And you don't need the Mounted Combat feat (only if you want the special mounted ability, pretty much).

So you could easily ride a dragon, they simply don't have a mounted bonus.

And the way your DM has it set up now, it's a HUGE nerf as far as 4e is concerned. I get the feeling that he didn't even bother to look up the mounted combat rules (which are quite simple this time around). I'd suggest you both sit down and read pages 46 and 47 of the DMG.

The Warhorse is definitely the best option for you at the moment, since you're level 3 (The minimum level to get it's mounted benefit, Charger).

As for equipment I'd recommend a +1 weapon as your most important need. And Dwarven Armor is always a great option. Probably also consider an Amulet of Protection +1, and maybe a Belt of Vigor.

Enjoy the Swordmage!

Yakk
2008-08-20, 10:56 AM
I'm still homebrewing that bit myself, for 4E Dragonlance. But nerfing dragons from solo to elite is surprisingly easy - you pretty much just take off an action point, reduce the save bonus to +2, and reduce hit points appropriately.
And halve their offensive effectiveness!

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-20, 11:03 AM
And halve their offensive effectiveness!

That's the thing, Elites and Solos don't actually have that much of a quantifiable difference there. (There might've been a difference in bonuses?) Elites are already supposed to get powers that let them attack two PCs in a turn, and dragons are Solo monsters without at-will attacks that can target an entire party - they just have the "double attacks", which an Elite could/should have already...

Yakk
2008-08-20, 01:33 PM
Compare the Adult Blue Dragon (Level 13 Solo Artillery) on page 78 of MMI printing 1, to Beholder Eye of Flame (level 13 Elite Artillery).

Eye:
Aura 5 trick (random eye stalk).
~7 melee damage
Vunerable 10 fire + ongoing 5 fire debuff
Fire Ray of 13 damage, and one debuff
Burst of 13 damage twice per encounter (bloodied and dead)

Aura does an average of 1.625 damage or so.
Fire ray attack does about 42 damage with eye trick.
Extra pushing around and the like from other eyes stalks.
~13 extra AOE damage hitting most of the party (factoring in 50% hit change).

Solo Dragon:
damage 11 7x7 burst standard attack
Fury: 33 melee damage at range 2
Breath: 33% recharge, +2 uses per fight. 23 damage to three targets
Presence: stuns, penalty to attack.

Notice that the damage output of the Solo dragon is significantly larger than the damage output of the Elite beholders.

This makes sense. An encounter with 2 elites and a normal is supposed to be just as hard as a single solo. If the solo had the damage output of a single elite, it would be a bore-fest.

Colmarr
2008-08-20, 10:14 PM
Page 184 of the DMG. Again, since the mount deducts its XP from the XP total of an encounter, like any and all allies do, it's automagically balanced. (In practice, this means that the DM should / will raise the XP total of every encounter by the sum of the XP values of the party's mounts and allies to get an encounter of any desired level.)

Huh?

I'm unsure how that relates to my question.

So there are rules for levelling up a mount (ie. making a level 25 warhorse with 25th level attacks (mostly useless), defences and hp (very important)?

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-21, 12:25 AM
Huh?

I'm unsure how that relates to my question.

So there are rules for levelling up a mount (ie. making a level 25 warhorse with 25th level attacks (mostly useless), defences and hp (very important)?

Exactly. If the DM wants you to have useful mounts at high levels, the DM needs to make high-level mounts.

NPCMook
2008-08-21, 12:32 AM
There is a box at the bottom of page 184 for explaining Monster build/Leveling up, this can even be used to Down level monsters, I may use this to Down level a Blade Spider since my character is an Earthsoul Genasi

Colmarr
2008-08-21, 02:04 AM
There is a box at the bottom of page 184 for explaining Monster build/Leveling up, this can even be used to Down level monsters, I may use this to Down level a Blade Spider since my character is an Earthsoul Genasi

Ok. Forgive me for being dense, but I'm really only going off the DMG excerpts here.

Is DMG p184 the page that they quoted in the pre-release DMG except? Is it also the page that says a monster should never be raised or lowered by more than 5 levels? So that a level 3 warhorse should definitely not be advanced to 25th level.

I know I'm harping on this, but it always annoyed me that 3.5 effectively squashed the horse as a possible mount at higher levels, and I'll be overjoyed if 4e goes some way to addressing that.

EDIT: Off-topic tangent. Wow, the transition from Halfing itP to Dwarf itP seems to take much less time than Pixie to Halfling.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-21, 02:51 AM
Ok. Forgive me for being dense, but I'm really only going off the DMG excerpts here.

Is DMG p184 the page that they quoted in the pre-release DMG except? Is it also the page that says a monster should never be raised or lowered by more than 5 levels? So that a level 3 warhorse should definitely not be advanced to 25th level.

I know I'm harping on this, but it always annoyed me that 3.5 effectively squashed the horse as a possible mount at higher levels, and I'll be overjoyed if 4e goes some way to addressing that.

Customizing monsters, including increasing or decreasing levels, is actually page 174 of the DMG - I actually recommend creating high-level mounts from scratch rather than just raising level, but I'm pretty sure both amount to the same. Page 174 does tell us that if you're raising a monster 5+ levels, you're better off creating it from scratch.

Since the MM has horse mounts at levels 1, 3, and 10, I guess I'll do a warhorse raised to level 5 (according to p. 184, not p. 174 - you do end up with differences), then a level 25 mount.

Only changed lines are included below:

Warhorse Level 5 Brute
Large natural beast (mount) XP 200
Initiative +4 Senses Perception +9; low-light vision
HP 79; Bloodied 39
AC 19; Fortitude 18, Reflex 16, Will 16
† Kick (standard; at-will)
+8 vs. AC; 1d6+6 damage.
† Trample (standard; at-will)
cf. MM p. 159, but +6 vs. Reflex; 1d6+7 damage.
Str 22 (+8) Dex 15 (+4) Wis 15 (+4)
Con 19 (+6) Int 2 (-2) Cha 10 (+2)

And this is brand new, but obviously based on the existing mounts:

Legendary Horse Level 25 Soldier
Large natural beast (mount) XP 7,000
Initiative +21 Senses Perception +24; low-light vision
HP 230; Bloodied 115
AC 41; Fortitude 39, Reflex 37, Will 37
Saving Throws +5 against fear effects
Speed 12; see also surefooted
† Kick (standard; at-will)
+32 vs. AC; 2d8+9 damage, and the target is pushed 1 square.
† Trample (standard; at-will)
cf. MM p. 159, but +30 vs. Reflex; 2d8+10 damage.
Legendary Charge (while mounted by a friendly rider of 25th level or higher; at-will) ♦ Mount
The legendary horse grants its rider a +15 bonus to damage rolls on charge attacks.
Surefooted
The legendary warhorse ignores difficult terrain.
Alignment Unaligned Languages Common
Skills Endurance +23
Str 28 (+21) Dex 25 (+19) Wis 25 (+19)
Con 22 (+18) Int 2 (+8) Cha 10 (+12)

NPCMook
2008-08-21, 03:23 AM
its not recommended to use the chart on PG 184 from the DMG if you are raising or lowering beyond 5 levels, it says to pretty much to rebuild the entire monster...

Using the chart a level 25 Warhorse would look something like this:

HP:278 Bloodied:139
AC: 37
Fort: 37 Ref: 37 Will: 37
Attack vs AC: +28 vs AC
Attack vs other defenses: +26 vs Fort/Ref/Will

Standard Attack; at-will
2d8+9 Damage

This is not even using the basic stats of a Warhorse, or giving it the bonuses for leveling at all or any modifiers that the Warhorse would already have

Hope that helps

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-21, 03:35 AM
Er, which chart are you referring to? p. 184 is for creating new monsters; p. 174 is for increasing level. I did both using the new monster guidelines (the level-increasing on p. 174 actually gets you less powerful creatures).

Not sure who you were trying to help, either; the Soldier horse stats are 100% by the table. (Yours would be a Brute horse.)


Incidentally, creating that thing and going through the MM to compare it, I was struck by how wonderfully simple even level 25 enemies are. There's no "ability creep," unless you're dealing with solos and elites (and when using those you've got fewer enemies to track anyhow, so it works out).

NPCMook
2008-08-21, 04:06 AM
It was just a rough Brute created using the chart on 184, it was meant for Colmarr, I had a little issue with replying that is why the post showed up after yours

Colmarr
2008-08-21, 08:12 PM
Thanks to both of you.

WickerNipple
2008-08-21, 08:12 PM
I'm currently running a 4e game and have come upon the whole Riding Horse issue too.

The flavor text for Riding Horse very much gives me the impression players shouldn't be treating them simply as a bonus move device.


Riding horses usually panic and bolt when faced with danger...

This isn't accompanied by any sort of hard rules, but I've been making my players make Nature (Handle Animal) checks with a difficulty equal to how freaked out I think a normal horse would be in the situation, and I've known a few freaked out horses in my time.

A few folks here have jumped on the OP's GM as in some way nerfing the mounted combat feat, and while I might give a character with that feat a bonus on their Nature rolls, I certainly think the roll is justified for buying the cheap-o mount.

This of course just applies to the Riding Horse ~ you're making a non-combatant do something it's not supposed to do.

trashcan01
2008-08-22, 09:46 AM
In all mounted combat is pretty simple in 4e but one thing bugs me, if an enemy provokes AOO do you and your mount get AOO or just one of you? I could not find anything in RAW about that situation so your view of the thing will be appreciated.

fractic
2008-08-22, 09:49 AM
In all mounted combat is pretty simple in 4e but one thing bugs me, if an enemy provokes AOO do you and your mount get AOO or just one of you? I could not find anything in RAW about that situation so your view of the thing will be appreciated.

I'd say it's the riders choice. But you share actions so still only one opportunity attack per round for the rider and mount combined.