First Gestalt Campaign [3.X]

[FatherMalkav]

So my friend is running an oriental themed game and we're meeting on Friday to finalize characters and make sure the group overs all needed roles. We have six people, so finding the roles should be easy, there is just one problem; It's gestalt, which I've never done. The players are split 3 experienced and 3 new players (played before, but still learning basic stuff). So the question on gestalt; what are good builds? Any pitfalls I should look out for or rules of thumb to follow?

The game is basically Oriental Adventures, but expanded classes and races. We're allowed access to all books (but we need the books to show what we're doing and where we got it.) With the exception of no psionics (DM call) and no ToB (DM & player call, we just don't like it). I was thinking doing part binder, but unsure. I was also thinking Nizumi (rat people), but don't know the info for them. Anyone have any suggestions?

Level: 1 Gestalt
Alignment: LG,NG,CG,LN,N,CN
Ability Scores: 18,18,16,16,14,14 - No lie, the dice love me :smallbiggrin:.
Books: We have access to most, everything from DMG's, PHB's, Completes, ToM, OE has already been OKed. Like I said, psionics and ToB are banned.

Thanks in advance. I'll answer any questions anyone has.

[kamikasei]

Something worth clarifying is how LA and RHD are being handled. Some games let you take LA on one half of a gestalt and RHD on the other, some count the LA against both halves, etc...

[FatherMalkav]

LA counts for just one side. We have savage species so for low LA's We'll probable use that. Higher ones (Mindflayer and the like) won't be allowed most likely. As for RHD, I have to ask the DM, though I doubt he'll allow it.

[Duke of URL]

The most general gestalt advice is that gestalt provides additional options, but does not provide additional actions. As such, you want to pair a class/progression with active features with another side that provides more passive features. (This is why Monk is far more popular in gestalt than it is in regular play -- it provides excellent support features that pair nicely with a more active skill set. This is doubly true when using the feats that let you use INT or CHA in place of WIS for Monk abilities.)

Attribute synergy is something to consider as well -- try to pair progressions that depend on the same attribute(s) so you don't run into MAD issues.

But most importantly, pick a set of progressions that will be fun to play. That's all that matters in the end, right? Unless you're just randomly picking stuff, you'll likely be powerful enough to hold your own in a gestalt game.

[Chronicled]

I was thinking doing part binder, but unsure. I was also thinking Nizumi (rat people), but don't know the info for them. Anyone have any suggestions?

Binder, like Monk, works better in gestalt than alone. The right vestiges can give a huge boost to whatever class is on the other side of your progression, or can let you pick up other duties and fill in for other classes; and you can change this from day to day. Where a non-gestalt Binder is often a bit worse at whatever he's picked as his role for the day than the dedicated specialists, giving those vestige bonuses to a dedicated specialist can be wonderfully effective. Keep in mind that if you're not one of the expert players in your group, you might want to pick something else; it's notoriously difficult to play a Binder to its full potential.

Here's the Binder Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=784085) from the WotC forums.

[FatherMalkav]

No ,I'm one of the experienced one's, so I understand the daily role change the binder has and hence why I'm glad I have a chance to play them and not have that issue. I was, more then anything, looking for a good class to mix with them. I was thinking rogue or fighter, though a spell caster may not be bad. I was just asking for some help from more experienced players then I or from anyone who has done a gestalt binder before.

I've started on the Binder Handbook, but have yet to sit down and read it in full. I should do that before Friday.

[OzymandiasVolt]

The official ruling is that LA applies to both sides.

This is a stupid ruling that makes LA even more painful than it already is, and should be ignored.

[Chronicled]

I was, more then anything, looking for a good class to mix with them.

There's a lot of classes that fit the bill, since the Binder's so flexible. Since it gets some mileage from a high Cha and Con, though...

How about Paladin of Freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures)//Hellreaver (FC2)? A very Charisma based build; being able to bind Naberius lets you offset the Con loss from renewing your Hellreaver points, and lets you easily handle social encounters. Once you get two vestiges at once, you can keep Naberius constantly active and then add whatever fits the situation. (Make sure to pick up Expel Vestige.) You'll have a lot of immunities, and generally be quite hard to kill.

If you don't mind an alignment change mid-build, Hexblade 3/Paladin of Freedom 2-3/Hellreaver 10//Binder 20 would be an even tougher customer. Pick up a Ring of Evasion once you have the cash and don't worry about dying.

[FatherMalkav]

There's a lot of classes that fit the bill, since the Binder's so flexible. Since it gets some mileage from a high Cha and Con, though...

How about Paladin of Freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures)//Hellreaver (FC2)? A very Charisma based build; being able to bind Naberius lets you offset the Con loss from renewing your Hellreaver points, and lets you easily handle social encounters.
I'll see. I know about the Hellreaver, but I don't have FC2. It's a nice idea if I can get the book.


If you don't mind an alignment change mid-build, Hexblade 3/Paladin of Freedom 2-3/Hellreaver 10//Binder 20 would be an even tougher customer.
You're talking about the Hexblade fix, right?

[Chronicled]

You're talking about the Hexblade fix, right?

No, I'm talking about the Hexblade's Charisma to saves vs spells and Mettle. You don't go far enough into the build for the fix to really apply (and if you can trade the 1/day Curse for a bonus feat or something, do it).

[brant167]

If you want to go with Binder in a Oriental Campaign. I suggest going Binder/Warblade, flavor it so that its your ancestors that are guiding you. It would make a excellent Samurai type feel which is directly being assisted by his ancestors. The intelligence synergy would be nice and you would be able to be the main tank with a great skill selection list.

[Chronicled]

If you want to go with Binder in a Oriental Campaign. I suggest going Binder/Warblade, flavor it so that its your ancestors that are guiding you. It would make a excellent Samurai type feel which is directly being assisted by his ancestors. The intelligence synergy would be nice and you would be able to be the main tank with a great skill selection list.

Unfortunately for the OP, his group doesn't allow ToB.

[Eldariel]

Generally, casters are a good pair for just about anything in Gestalt.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Ever since I saw the Binder class I have thought it is a great fit with the Ur-Priest PRC particularly with Anima Mage PRC for vestige fueled metamagic. Actually a little tougher to do Binder in Gestalt IMO for what you give up and gain.

Two fun effective builds:

Rogue -2 (or 1 with Monk -1 or Marshal -1 (Minor Motivate Aura)), Factotum -8, Ur-Priest -10//Binder -20 should be effective. (Probably need the DM/GM's permission for Ur-Priest if Non-evil so might not be an option but a nice way to get some spellcasting on the side)

Factotum -19, Marshal -1//Binder-20 (Concentrate most of your feats on extra Fonts of Inspiration and take a look at the Factotum board at WOTC fior ideas)

Edit: At first level Factotum-1//Binder-1 would probably be the most fun to play.

[Swok]

Well, there's always Binder//Warlock/Hellfire Warlock for all your needs of cutting things very, very hard with touch attacks. The only problem is I can't remember if Hellfire Warlock has an alignment restriction restriction of evil only or just non-good, and you're playing a non-evil game. Though if by "Oriental Themed" you mean Rokugan...a Binder//Hellfire Warlock would make an interesting Scorpion Clan member if it's just non-good restriction. I mean, you've got combat and out of combat utility from both Binder and Warlock.

[Duke of URL]

HFW is "non-good", though "usually" evil.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

HFW is "non-good", though "usually" evil.And Warlock is either Evil or Chaotic, so he'd have to be CN.

[Eldariel]

Although with some Malconvoker-flavouring, you could easily be Chaotic Good.

[shadow_archmagi]

Generally, casters are a good pair for just about anything in Gestalt.

Artificers are also a good pair. Its hard to think a build that wouldn't be enhanced by having top of the line magical equipment at 1/3rd the usual price.

[Eldariel]

Artificer should be considered a caster for all intents and purposes. They have absolutely same mechanics, except they're a bit better than other casters (free crafting, all the metamagic trigger-abilities, everything keyed off Use Magic Device (already the best skill in the game), infusions in addition to mass Wandage, bonus feats, Trapfinding, tons of class features, just every ridiculous thing you can imagine). In fact, when talking about brokenness, Artificer should rank there right below Planar Shepherd and Incantatrix. As a bonus, Artificer has much lower stat dependancy.

[Jack_Simth]

So my friend is running an oriental themed game and we're meeting on Friday to finalize characters and make sure the group overs all needed roles. We have six people, so finding the roles should be easy, there is just one problem; It's gestalt, which I've never done. The players are split 3 experienced and 3 new players (played before, but still learning basic stuff). So the question on gestalt; what are good builds? Any pitfalls I should look out for or rules of thumb to follow?

The game is basically Oriental Adventures, but expanded classes and races. We're allowed access to all books (but we need the books to show what we're doing and where we got it.) With the exception of no psionics (DM call) and no ToB (DM & player call, we just don't like it). I was thinking doing part binder, but unsure. I was also thinking Nizumi (rat people), but don't know the info for them. Anyone have any suggestions?

Level: 1 Gestalt
Alignment: LG,NG,CG,LN,N,CN
Ability Scores: 18,18,16,16,14,14 - No lie, the dice love me :smallbiggrin:.
Books: We have access to most, everything from DMG's, PHB's, Completes, ToM, OE has already been OKed. Like I said, psionics and ToB are banned.

Thanks in advance. I'll answer any questions anyone has.
What "power level" are you after? At level 1, can't do much with LA anyway, so I'm ignoring that and just looking at "standard" gestalt characters.

General advice:

1) Avoid MAD, shoot for SAD. Sure, the Wizard//Favored Soul looks good on paper (lots of spontaneous casting for the "all the time" stuff, plus prepared casting for the situational stuff) but you've got three casting stats, and you need Con just as much as anyway - that's bad. In your case, it's not that bad, with your insane rolls, but it's still something to watch out for. The Druid//Ninja, on the other hand, needs only Wisdom (for spellcasting, Ki Points, AC) and Con (Hit Points) after Wildshape becomes available. Before Wildshape, Dexterity helps for the AC, but isn't required.
2) Avoid classes where the benefits can't all apply at the same time; look for pairings where the two do not interfere with each other at all. The Fighter//Monk, for instance, can't take advantage of any monk abilities while using the Fighter's armor or shield proficiency. This is a bad thing. The Druid//Ninja, on the other hand, isn't nearly so bad off - the Druid can't use good armors anyway, and Ninja's don't get their AC bonus when armored - you don't lose much over either by ignoring armor.
3) Avoid overlapping abilities, look for complimentary ones. Sure, the Wizard//Sorcerer looks good on paper as the ultimate arcanist, but they both use the same spell list, they both have the same d4 hit die, they both have the same single good save, they both have the same skill points per level, and so on. The Ninja//Druid, on the other hand, gets good Fort and Will from the Druid, good Reflex from the Ninja; a d8 Hit Die from the Druid side; wildshape (eventually) from the Druid side; spellcasting from the Druid side; swift-action Ki abilities from the Ninja side; sudden strike from the Ninja side (which incidentally applies on all attacks in Wild Shape... keep that in mind for 5th level); and so on. The Druid and Ninja have very few class features in common - mostly just the 4+Int skill points per level and the 3/4th's BAB.
4) Don't think in terms of filling two roles - think in terms of one primary role and a secondary role with supporting abilities. If you try to do everything, you will (generally) not excel. If you instead focus, you will do very well. Pick your "Primary" class based on what you want to do, and pick your "secondary" class based on how it supports the primary.
5) Beware the action limit; look for active/passive combos. Sure, the Wizard//Cleric looks good on paper, but most spells take a standard action to cast. You're unlikely to "run out" of spells, but you're also not really doing anything more than what a regular Wizard or a regular Cleric could do on any given round. You want one side to do stuff with your actions (e.g., Full Attack, cast spells, grappling, whatever); and the other side to do stuff that does not consume actions, or does not consume significant actions (such as a good saves, a large hit die, Paladin's Divine Grace, a Monk or Ninja's AC bonus, Full BAB when you're using ray spells in the primary side, armor proficiencies, long-duration personal buff spells, swift action Ki abilities, Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike that adds to a full attack, and so on). The Druid//Ninja, for instance, can (eventually) Wildshape to get lots of attacks + Pounce, Full Attacking using a Ki point for swift-action invisibility and thus getting Sudden Strike damage on all attacks (this tends to one-round subject opponents - when you get five attacks with +3d6 damage each at 5th level, opponents tend to die).
6) Be aware of power curves. At low levels, melee and skill monkey classes do quite well, and tend to rule the roost in usefulness. At high levels, it's the full casters that take over party usefulness. One side needs to be a full caster. The Barbarian//Fighter will do pretty well at levels 1-5, but will be hurting for things to do from 15-20. The Wizard//Sorcerer will be hurting at levels 1-5, but is liable to develop a cult at 15-20 (if he swings that way). The Druid//Ninja, on the other hand, plays as a skillmonkey at 1st-4th, and is very useful; at 5th+, plays a melee class (wild shape) without losing skillmonkey abilities, and at 15th-20th rules the roost with the other Full Casters (but loses out on Miracle/Wish - oh well).

Did I mention I'm fond of the Druid//Ninja in Gestalt? If you go with that, your stat priority is Wis > Con > Int > Dex > Str > Cha (that is, Str 14, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 16, Wis 18, Cha 14) - as you get a Lot out of Wis, everyone loves Con, Int is useful for the skill points (and you've got a decent skill list). Strength and Dexterity are very useful up until they're subsumed by the Wildshape form's physical statistics, and this character has very little use for Charisma.

As for race, mechanically, I'd suggest Dwarf - the Charisma penalty doesn't hurt, the Con bonus is very nice, the save bonuses will help you out for a long, long time (vs. spells or Poison, the build outlined above would have Fort/Ref/Will saves of +9/+7/+8 at 1st level; +7/+5/+6 vs. other stuff), and the Darkvision is needed if you plan to do any sneaking around.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're going to make a Gestalt Warlock, you should definitely consider taking Enlightened Spirit (CM) next to it. You'd gain a Greater Invocation at ES 5, which means you'd be able to spend your Warlock 10 Invocation on another Greater one since that's what you'd already have access to. Hellbred from Fiendish Codex 2 would be perfect for this, with the Spirit trait. That could even get Mindsight (LoM) at level 15, and use Darkness tricks unhindered without having to take Devil's Sight.

[The_Snark]

HFW is "non-good", though "usually" evil.

It actually doesn't have an alignment restriction. Presumably, the reasoning behind it is that devils are perfectly willing to try tempting you into evil by giving you power—at a price, of course.

[Turcano]

If you don't mind an alignment change mid-build, Hexblade 3/Paladin of Freedom 2-3/Hellreaver 10//Binder 20 would be an even tougher customer. Pick up a Ring of Evasion once you have the cash and don't worry about dying.

That doesn't really work, as hexblades are restricted to non-good alignments or they lose their abilities. I found this out while putting together a mage-slayer build and needed stratospheric saves; I ended up using the Incarnate from Dragon, which is true neutral. (Paladins of Tyranny/Slaughter also work, but those are restricted, obviously.)

Anyway, if you're looking for a melee combatant, Druid//Monk is a pretty good build; the bonus unarmored AC is a godsend in wildshape and synergizes with your spellcasting stat, and the movement bonus improves your attack range if you wildshape into animals with pounce/rake (i.e., big cats). You can even get most of the AC bonus from a one-level dip if you want something else on the other side.

As far as pure spellcasting goes, few things beat an archivist//wizard combo; you get a d6 hit die, a good Fort save, and you access to over half a dozen spell lists.

[Eldariel]

Speaking of mage slayers, whatever happened to that fight? I died, but the mage pretty much expended all his level 9- and a few of his level 7 slots along with most of his rod charges and all that, so it would be fully possible to run him out of spells now. To my knowledge, it was discontinued after my Eternal Blade died.

[Turcano]

Speaking of mage slayers, whatever happened to that fight? I died, but the mage pretty much expended all his level 9- and a few of his level 7 slots along with most of his rod charges and all that, so it would be fully possible to run him out of spells now. To my knowledge, it was discontinued after my Eternal Blade died.

Yeah, it pretty much got kicked in the head. I think that Talic was under the impression that it was my turn, as he said he'd think of something to do once I corrected him, but apparently nothing came of that, either.

[Eita]

I like Duskblade//Wizard. At level 7 you can wear medium armor (or as I think of it, heavy armor made of mithril) and use heavy shields with no penalty. Basically, it's Duskblade with more spells. And, since both classes use int to cast....

[Chronicled]

That doesn't really work, as hexblades are restricted to non-good alignments or they lose their abilities. I found this out while putting together a mage-slayer build and needed stratospheric saves; I ended up using the Incarnate from Dragon, which is true neutral. (Paladins of Tyranny/Slaughter also work, but those are restricted, obviously.)

Huh, I'd missed that paragraph (and I know I'm not the only one who has). It might still be worth it for the Mettle, which is an (Ex) ability; only the (Su) abilities and casting are lost from alignment change. However, it'd probably be better to nab Mettle from the first level of the Pious Templar PrC.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I like Duskblade//Wizard. At level 7 you can wear medium armor (or as I think of it, heavy armor made of mithril) and use heavy shields with no penalty. Basically, it's Duskblade with more spells. And, since both classes use int to cast....

Armored Mage only applies to Duskblade spells, and specifically says, "This ability does not apply to spells gained from a different spellcasting class." You'd still suffer the full arcane spell failure chance when casting Wizard spells.

[Turcano]

Huh, I'd missed that paragraph (and I know I'm not the only one who has). It might still be worth it for the Mettle, which is an (Ex) ability; only the (Su) abilities and casting are lost from alignment change. However, it'd probably be better to nab Mettle from the first level of the Pious Templar PrC.

That's true, at least if you can afford the two useless prerequisite feats.

[mabriss lethe]

If you're looking for something to set up opposite to binder, it'll really depend on how you're wanting to play the character.

What's more important for the other side of the equation? Special Abilities or good numbers. Do you want higher BAB? Better hit dice? Better saves? spellcasting? more skills? neat tricks?

a binder's statistics are nearly identical to a cleric. same hd, same BAB, same good saves, similar skill set. So, unless you're dead set on getting your mitts on divine magic, cleric may not be the best choice for you.

as already mentioned, abilities cease to be quite so important in gestalt. You'll have abilities coming out of every oriface. The real commodity in gestalt are actions. Look for any way you can to squeeze in extra actions, or specifically tailor your list of availible abilities so that you have lots of alternate things to do with move, swift, and immediate actions and know the differences backwards and forwards.

[Chronos]

One gestalt build I put together once was based on getting as many natural weapons as possible. I used straight Binder on one side, and picked vestiges to get headbutt, bite, pounce, Sneak Attack, and Sudden Strike (this needs the Ignore Special Requirements feat, since Amon doesn't like a bunch of others), then on the other side put unarmed-variant swordsage (though monk would also work, if you don't have access to Tome of Battle), Totemist for Girallon Arms, and a few other things. The build ended up with five unarmed strikes, four claws, a bite, and a headbutt, more if using the mongoose boosts from ToB, each of which had about fifty points of bonus damage attached, and all of which were usable on a charge.

Ah, here we go (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4244036&postcount=26). This was built under some peculiar constraints (almost no core material allowed), so there's room for improvement if you're allowed things like Power Attack and an Amulet of Mighty Fists.

[FatherMalkav]

I'm thinking I might go Monk//Binder but I'm unsure if I want to stick to 20 the whole way. I like the idea of and fitting two support roles, we're gonna have a rogue/ninja for the skill monkeying (he knows SS and SA don't stack) and a fighter/Samurai (OA version, not CW) for fighting. This way I can support the the fighter in the front lines, but Binder allows me to help me with skills too. Luckily the DM houserules that monks can get magic handwraps and gloves to help their damage.

Anyone have a good idea for a build similar to this?

Also, where do you find the Totemist?

[CASTLEMIKE]

Magic of Incarnum

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070904

If you go non caster on one side can you go Binder Anima Mage on the other with a spellcasting class?

[FatherMalkav]

Ok well i settled on the beginning of my build, now I have another issue; speed.
I settled on Monk//Binder for now, and I'm willing to takes some dips later if needed. The Nizumi come with a 40ft speed, which monk will increase, I just want to get it as high as possible to begin with.
Fluff wise we're saying I discovered a way to contact the Forgotten (Vistages), ancestor's so ancient and powerful that all had forgotten their existence, yet they remained. Their loneliness warped and changed them into the forms they are now though, and they are eager for the touch of life, sometimes too eager (bad bind influence). I chose to study in a brotherhood to help me control myself and those that rode be better (monk). While there I was used as a messenger for the Crab Clan due to my speed, carrying messages from outpost to outpost. I just need to know how to make myself as fast as possible.
I'm allowed traits and flaws, so I've already settled on Quick, making my 40ft a 50ft. On my list to take are Run and Fleet of Foot, but beyond that I have no idea. I'm open on races, (though LA and HD are bad since I'm level 1, though a LA+1 I may be able to swing) though the DM already shot down Xaph, though I may be able to swing him on it if I drop the power point. Anyway, are their any other ways to increase that move speed ASAP?

[Chronicled]

Ok well i settled on the beginning of my build, now I have another issue; speed.
I settled on Monk//Binder for now, and I'm willing to takes some dips later if needed. The Nizumi come with a 40ft speed, which monk will increase, I just want to get it as high as possible to begin with.
Fluff wise we're saying I discovered a way to contact the Forgotten (Vistages), ancestor's so ancient and powerful that all had forgotten their existence, yet they remained. Their loneliness warped and changed them into the forms they are now though, and they are eager for the touch of life, sometimes too eager (bad bind influence). I chose to study in a brotherhood to help me control myself and those that rode be better (monk). While there I was used as a messenger for the Crab Clan due to my speed, carrying messages from outpost to outpost. I just need to know how to make myself as fast as possible.
I'm allowed traits and flaws, so I've already settled on Quick, making my 40ft a 50ft. On my list to take are Run and Fleet of Foot, but beyond that I have no idea. I'm open on races, (though LA and HD are bad since I'm level 1, though a LA+1 I may be able to swing) though the DM already shot down Xaph, though I may be able to swing him on it if I drop the power point. Anyway, are their any other ways to increase that move speed ASAP?

Speed of Thought feat from XPH, requires you keep your Psionic focus; +10 insight to speed. Barbarian level 1. Umm...

If you're going for a speed demon, might you reconsider Monk in favor of Scout, and actually get some use from your mobility? Binder can give you pounce-like effects (and one vestige gives you a line melee attack), which would work great with skirmish. At least ask your DM if you can trade flurry of blows for skirmish, like the Halfling Monk in Races of the Wild.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Catfolk, from Races of the Wild, have move speed 40 and +4 dex, +2 cha, for LA 1. I'd also suggest either a Scout or Barbarian dip or going straight Scout for the +10 to your speed(probably both fluff and mechanics-wise best for 1st level). If you do the Scout dip, also take Imp Skirmish for 3d6 damage every time you move 20 feet, and the dodge-replacement feat that adds 2 to your AC(untyped, IIRC) if you move 40 ft(should be every turn). Monk doesn't really boost your speed much, since it's an enhancement bonus, like the most common magic items.

[FatherMalkav]

The issues with Skirmish is that you get the skirmish die, but can only take one attack due to moving, or am I wrong on that? If so mixing in some Zen archery would be a nasty combo.

I debated a Barbarian dip but the problem was since I'd the go Lawful for Monk, I'd basically get the +10ft and 1d12 HD, thats it. No rage bonus due to alignment change.

[Chronicled]

The issues with Skirmish is that you get the skirmish die, but can only take one attack due to moving, or am I wrong on that? If so mixing in some Zen archery would be a nasty combo.

That's where Binder comes in (or Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian). Check out what binding Paimon gives you, and then think how well Scout works with that.

[FatherMalkav]

Ohh yeah, Dance of Death is disgustingly good with that combo, but I thought skirmish die only applied to ranged attacks when you moved more then 10ft. Can you do it with melee?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Ohh yeah, Dance of Death is disgustingly good with that combo, but I thought skirmish die only applied to ranged attacks when you moved more then 10ft. Can you do it with melee?Yep. In fact, though, you could go Scout//Binder all the way and be fine. Pounce from binding, Skirmish from Scout, the feats I mentioned, and Boots to give you monk-level speed. Keep the fluff, but be better at it.

[Chronicled]

Ohh yeah, Dance of Death is disgustingly good with that combo, but I thought skirmish die only applied to ranged attacks when you moved more then 10ft. Can you do it with melee?

Melee or ranged. Ranged is preferred for most builds, but it's a wonderful addition to meleers too.

[FatherMalkav]

I just found this alternate class feature called Riposte (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) . Since my combat strategy seems to run bast my enemies that just adds a little AC bonus to it.

So my basic strategy is to keep moving for Skirmish die then once I get Paiomon use Dance of Death as often as possible. Just so I understand I'm focusing on either getting one really solid hit in every turn before Paiomon, correct?

Anyway, besides the Trait and class, any other speed boosts?

[Chronicled]

I just found this alternate class feature called Riposte (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) . Since my combat strategy seems to run bast my enemies that just adds a little AC bonus to it.

So my basic strategy is to keep moving for Skirmish die then once I get Paiomon use Dance of Death as often as possible. Just so I understand I'm focusing on either getting one really solid hit in every turn before Paiomon, correct?

Anyway, besides the Trait and class, any other speed boosts?

Well, initially you only get one attack due to BAB anyways, so no problem there. Paimon will be the superb vestige for you; going into Anima Knight with him is a valid option to boost your combat effectiveness (the real question is which level you should do it at. I'd wait until you get a second vestige, but YMMV).

The other big benefits of going with Scout instead of Monk include being able to be an authentic skill monkey (8 sp/level vs the Monk's 4) or Diplomat (since you get the Binder skill list and plenty of points to fill it with).

The only other speed boosts I can think of are from Tome of Battle. Maybe a few in the Magic Item Compendium that aren't enhancement bonuses. Minor note: if you do go Catfolk, I'd take the Catfolk Pounce feat.

I'll see about posting a build later. Scout//Binder/Anima Knight is solid without being overbearing.

[Chronos]

going into Anima Knight with him is a valid option to boost your combat effectivenessI think you mean "Knight of the Sacred Seal". Anima Mage is the the arcane/binder combo class.

[FatherMalkav]

Maybe a few in the Magic Item Compendium that aren't enhancement bonuses. Minor note: if you do go Catfolk, I'd take the Catfolk Pounce feat.

I'll see about posting a build later. Scout//Binder/Anima Knight is solid without being overbearing.

Yeah, I have the MiC and was planning on looking through that for later plans. I was planing on Knight of the Sacred Seal, and luckily Piamon has no Special requirements so I can skip the Ignore Special Requirements for Improved Binding so I can get Piamon at 3rd level. Grabbing Mobility won't hurt either. I as flipping through CW and found Karmatic Strike, does that include AoO as well or no?

[Chronicled]

I think you mean "Knight of the Sacred Seal". Anima Mage is the the arcane/binder combo class.

I think you're right. I really ought to double check my posts...


Yeah, I have the MiC and was planning on looking through that for later plans. I was planing on Knight of the Sacred Seal, and luckily Piamon has no Special requirements so I can skip the Ignore Special Requirements for Improved Binding so I can get Piamon at 3rd level. Grabbing Mobility won't hurt either. I as flipping through CW and found Karmatic Strike, does that include AoO as well or no?

Mobility is an armor enhancement in the MiC, so you can save yourself a feat. Riposte ought to work well with Karmic Strike (which is triggered by AoO you provoke, in addition to normal attacks). I should look up some of Fax Celestis's ideas on optimizing Riposte...

[FatherMalkav]

Yeah, I like the Riposte option. With that I make a mad dash, then next turn cutback and deal major damage. Repeat until the end of the encounter.

[FatherMalkav]

I was just comparing the classes and I love the Skirmish ability scouts only get two movement increases at 3rd and 11th level, for that leaves me with 70ft at level 12 (40 base + 10 trait + 20 class). Monk at the same point would give me 90. I know there's the halfling build variant, but what do you think would be a good trade off from Scout to get more movement? I would like more.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I was just comparing the classes and I love the Skirmish ability scouts only get two movement increases at 3rd and 11th level, for that leaves me with 70ft at level 12 (40 base + 10 trait + 20 class). Monk at the same point would give me 90. I know there's the halfling build variant, but what do you think would be a good trade off from Scout to get more movement? I would like more.The monk speed boost is an enhancement bonus, the same kind duplicated (and therefore not stacking with) the most common magic items. Magic items stack with the Scout's speed, so you can actually end up faster than the speed-focused class.

[FatherMalkav]

The monk speed boost is an enhancement bonus, the same kind duplicated (and therefore not stacking with) the most common magic items. Magic items stack with the Scout's speed, so you can actually end up faster than the speed-focused class.

The Scout's is the same type as the Monk's, so the magic items don't stack with it's either. I spoke to my DM though and we discussed options and came to this conclusion and I submit it to you, the play grounders, for approval. He offered that I take levels in Monk, but at the sacrifice of my increased unarmed damage I gain Skirmish at the same rate as a Scout. The come 6th level I forfeit the Monk's bonus feat for the Flawless Stride class feature. Everything else on my class list is monk RAW. (Remember, I'm going to scale Binder with monk so I can just bind Ronove to gain my unarmed damage back to equal level). So with this I have access to OA Monk weapons, as well as all simple through my Binder class.

So, sound fair?

[BobVosh]

Armored Mage only applies to Duskblade spells, and specifically says, "This ability does not apply to spells gained from a different spellcasting class." You'd still suffer the full arcane spell failure chance when casting Wizard spells.

It is gestalt, usually that won't matter.

Cleric+X is good for any gestalting. Cleric/Monk spellcasting + AC off of wisdom, buffs to get your to hit where it should be, recommend divine metamagic + quicken for this. Also persistent. Or cleric + duskblade. Or cleric/warlock/hf warlock/binder cheese these people seem stuck on.

Use SS to get an extra head and cast 2x a round with cleric/wizard. Or Extra arms with the same book and swing your sword and cast.

Also don't forget the cheeseyness of rogue/swashbuckler and daring outlaw or any of the other dual class feats...

[Chronicled]

The Scout's is the same type as the Monk's, so the magic items don't stack with it's either. I spoke to my DM though and we discussed options and came to this conclusion and I submit it to you, the play grounders, for approval. He offered that I take levels in Monk, but at the sacrifice of my increased unarmed damage I gain Skirmish at the same rate as a Scout. The come 6th level I forfeit the Monk's bonus feat for the Flawless Stride class feature. Everything else on my class list is monk RAW. (Remember, I'm going to scale Binder with monk so I can just bind Ronove to gain my unarmed damage back to equal level). So with this I have access to OA Monk weapons, as well as all simple through my Binder class.

So, sound fair?

You're far better off with Scout proper (as you can still bind Ronove as a Scout//Binder), but... it's your character. 70ft is darn fast anyhow--over twice as fast as an ordinary human; keep in mind that you're giving up a lot of skills and good class features for that extra (more like, superfluous) speed by going Monk//Binder.

I wouldn't do it, but again it's your character.

[FatherMalkav]

A lot of the scout abilities I'm missing don't fit the character. I mean, Battle Fortitude will be missed, but the Monk's better save and improved init can cancel that out, and where trackless step is good I can probably swing changing a monk bonus feat for it. I found out that the skillmonkey part won't be an issue with two players taking rogue classes for part of their build (so trap finding won't really be missed either). Most of the Scout bonus feats are based on range, which I'm not doing, and I'll pick up Evasion thee levels early. Camouflages and Hide in Plain Sight are awesome, but don't fit the character. I'll miss the blindsense, though, that I admit. I doubt the game will play long enough for Free Movement though.

What do you feel would be a fair trade then?

[Chronicled]

A lot of the scout abilities I'm missing don't fit the character. I mean, Battle Fortitude will be missed, but the Monk's better save and improved init can cancel that out, and where trackless step is good I can probably swing changing a monk bonus feat for it. I found out that the skillmonkey part won't be an issue with two players taking rogue classes for part of their build (so trap finding won't really be missed either). Most of the Scout bonus feats are based on range, which I'm not doing, and I'll pick up Evasion thee levels early. Camouflages and Hide in Plain Sight are awesome, but don't fit the character. I'll miss the blindsense, though, that I admit. I doubt the game will play long enough for Free Movement though.

What do you feel would be a fair trade then?

Well, if Monk fits the character better, by all means use it. I'll optimize a concept, but min/maxing for it's own sake never ends with a character I'd like to play.

Minor nitpick: How does the Monk have a better save? Between the Scout's Reflex and the Binder's Fort/Will saves, you've got them all covered.

Stuff that I'd miss from Scout that doesn't have the "woodsy" flavor: Uncanny Dodge, more than 4 skill points/level (nobody can have enough skill points. Nobody. Even if you put them into Crafting, Perfoming and Languages, they're great to have.), Blindsense/sight, Freedom of Movement, Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.

Heck, it'd be easier to use the Scout as a base and swap its abilities for Monk ones, than to do the reverse. Trading powerful abilities like Camouflage and HiPS (and whatever else you don't want/doesn't fit from Scout) for enough Monk stuff to make the character feel "Monk-ish" should fly fine with a lot of DMs.