wheel of time d20

[fireinthedust]

So I'm reading the main book. It's pretty fun, though looking at it from a min/max pov I can see some problems. for example, the myrddhal (spelling? eyeless guys) have this ability to control Trollocs with no actual mechanical feature (moral bonus, hive mind, etc.) except that when they're killed all linked Trollocs are brought to their knees; which means that it's not mechanically valuable to pair these two critters up, as all you're doing is giving PCs a quick way to slay all Trollocs.

The art is fantastic, tho, and the source material is great


has anyone actually played the d20 setting game? I'm wondering what style of play for non-hack'n'slash games is like.

[Hzurr]

The myrdaal...er...Myrddrhal....um...skinny white eyeless guy's link with Trollocs is just in there as much for fluff as anything else, since it's in the books, and the weakness you pointed out is a viable strategy that's used by the characters in the books often.

As far as gameplay goes, there are...significant balance issues between casters and non-casters (even more-so than standard 3.5). Aes Sedai can kill things in awesome ways (but again, they stayed pretty true to the source material). In spite of these balance issues, the rules are pretty solid as long as you keep in mind the setting (if you try and run it like you do a typical d&d game, both the DM and the players will be frustrated). There are some really cool classes/mechanics (like the Aes Sedai/Warder Bond), and you can create just about anything from the books (including crazy male casters. The insanity rules are pretty rough).

If everyone who is playing is clear on the setting, and know what they're getting into and what to expect, it can be a blast and you can have a lot of fun. If they're going into it expecting to kill monsters and get treasure, people will be sorely disapointed.

[Krrth]

Yeah, it can be kinda fun. Just look over the characters closely. The Aiel can get nasty rather quickly (for non-casters). Warder bond is good. If you enforce the taint rules, male casters become almost fixed. (+1 taint for every time you overchannel!). The other casters can get ugly as well, but make sure to enforce the over channeling roll. A natural one on that one can end a characters usefulness quickly.

[Shishnarfne]

Yeah, the memories...

My first RPG experience was the WoT D20. Fun, but unfortunately too much seemed cribbed verbatim from the core 3.0 rules. Non-casters are weaker than normal, but it's a decent background set of rules for an RP-heavy game (it's WoT, how can you not go RP-heavy?).

Yeah, Overchannel DC's aren't hard to hit (unless you nat-1 the roll...), but the Fort Saves when you do fail are OUCH!

Yeah, it had incredible balance issues: algai d'siswai get a bunch of abilities early then a bunch of levels of nothing but periodic initiative bonuses. Channelers win pure power-level matchups, etc. However, I remember it being easier for me to focus on RP in that well-defined world, so I used it for a campaign and a fragment of a campaign. I only wish that there was a clean way to borrow the A Game of Thrones D20 Influence mechanic: one of the cleanest ways to quantify political intrigue I've ever seen.

Yes, taking out the Fades does make the Trollocs go down, but not only does that follow the setting, it's not easy to bring down Trollocs that way...

Well, if you have a copy and some friends who like WoT, it's a great excuse to RP for hours... I just wish that Wizards had put more time into the rulebook...

[WalkingTarget]

So I'm reading the main book. It's pretty fun, though looking at it from a min/max pov I can see some problems. for example, the myrddhal (spelling? eyeless guys) have this ability to control Trollocs with no actual mechanical feature (moral bonus, hive mind, etc.) except that when they're killed all linked Trollocs are brought to their knees; which means that it's not mechanically valuable to pair these two critters up, as all you're doing is giving PCs a quick way to slay all Trollocs.

I don't know about the game, as I haven't played it, but the linking deal with the Myrddraal keeps the Trollocs in line. From a fluff perspective it cuts down on obedience problems and is a detail carried over from the novels (and was used in exactly the way you mention in order for the protagonists to escape). In theory, Trollocs who aren't linked might be lazy or rebellious if the Myrddraal in charge isn't actually present, but never if the link is there. No mechanical bonus, just a roleplayed one. Myrrdraal are also supposed to be crazy-scary in combat anyway so if taking one of them out is "easy" then a bunch of Trollocs probably weren't really much of a threat in the first place. And it's also possible to have a Myrrdraal around without linking with the Trollocs too (at least in the novels), so you can still pair them up without worrying about the insta-kill stuff.

[RTGoodman]

has anyone actually played the d20 setting game? I'm wondering what style of play for non-hack'n'slash games is like.

I haven't play it, but I know my college gaming group had a long-ish running game going through most of last school year. I think the setting probably lends itself to at least a good deal of RPGing, but knowing the people in that group I assume it was mostly a hack-and-slash fest and I guess that sort of worked out (seeing as it lasted as long as it did).


If everyone who is playing is clear on the setting, and know what they're getting into and what to expect, it can be a blast and you can have a lot of fun. If they're going into it expecting to kill monsters and get treasure, people will be sorely disapointed.

Yeah, knowledge of the setting probably helps out a bit. None of the people playing in the aforementioned game knew the setting other than the DM (I sort of do, but don't really like it enough to play), and that led to some interesting conversations where my roommate tried to tell me about how his troll or half-orc kinda woodsman fellow sang to trees...

[Krrth]

I haven't play it, but I know my college gaming group had a long-ish running game going through most of last school year. I think the setting probably lends itself to at least a good deal of RPGing, but knowing the people in that group I assume it was mostly a hack-and-slash fest and I guess that sort of worked out (seeing as it lasted as long as it did).



Yeah, knowledge of the setting probably helps out a bit. None of the people playing in the aforementioned game knew the setting other than the DM (I sort of do, but don't really like it enough to play), and that led to some interesting conversations where my roommate tried to tell me about how his troll or half-orc kinda woodsman fellow sang to trees...

That would have been an Ogier. Think really, really big critter. They don't like violence, and thus cannot start play with anything more than simple weapon proficiency. They also cannot channel. At all.

[fireinthedust]

Any advice on adding in 3.x material? Not monsters, as I'm thinking it's a class-heavy system (ie: you fight nobles, briggands, assassins, armsmen, aiel, and aes sedai; like in the books).

But in terms of letting Armsmen be fighters, or using the ranger varient from, like, Midnight setting, for class abilities. Or the Rogue class. I don't have miniatures handbook, but I know some of the Dragonlance leader classes could also work.
Basically expanding purely martial classes, such as with feats and prcs and equipment.

Or any other catchall 3.x stuff that could port over well into WoT?

I might run a game on these boards, tho I havn't read the books in a *long* time (since Matt fell under that wall I stopped reading).

I wonder how to actually run an intrigue game... and have it be fun and exciting! I don't really know (dungeon styles or supers, personally).

[Krrth]

We actually tried to do just that, since the line of products was discontinued. The non-channelers translate over fairly well. The channelers require a bit more work. They simply do not work well with other caster classes. One of the biggest points of the system is that there is NO divine magic, and healing only works once per day. Combats can get really, really brutal.
However, since the world is so highly fleshed out, you can get some good RPing out of it.

[fireinthedust]

I think so also. A look at the plot for the additional book is interesting. I'm surprised the setting didn't take off the way star wars rpgs have. non-casters in both mechanically suck, and they're either going to follow a pre-made story or they won't.

personally, if running one on these boards, I might make a point of avoiding major issues in the story... though I get the feeling that would be hard. Hmmm... maybe have it happen in a non-cannon setting? Or in areas where the story isn't.
I think the book could have used more setting infor, and mechanics for places like the Dreamworld and the gateway paths from the first book. Also typical minions (seanchan, for example, or example NPC aes sedai with ability lists, some brigands, etc.)

Think these boards would love a game?

[PnP Fan]

One of the most enjoyable games I've ever played was in WoT d20. It also had the ugliest disparity between casters and noncasters that I've ever seen. A relatively low level spell called Solid Air pretty much lets casters kill anything that breaths (how does one breath solid air?).

As for male casters. . . if you have a cooperative female caster in the party, of significant level, she can cure his taint/sanity points away, and all of the limitations on being a male caster become moot.

Whatever you do, don't hand out any of the lost spells. Why they're in the book if they're "lost" I don't know, but they are pretty horrific. As in "slay all creatures of a particular species within 1 mile radius." horrific.

But lots of fun, in spite of my complaints about the mechanics, the GM was in love with the setting, so he knew all kinds of neat things to do with the party. Great fun! :-)

[Krrth]

Part of the problem is that the Author never fleshed out some of those parts enought to make good rules out of them. Given some of the rules, non casters can do quite well for themselves. I mean, male casters go bonkers, and female caster find themselves sent to the tower. Failing that fort save can literally kill a caster as well.
I don't know if the board would like a game, as in my area at least the rules were hard to get ahold of, even more so now that they are out of print.

RPing is good though...I still have fond memories of our first encounter. We were in an inn when Trollocs attacked. The two Shienarians pulled swords and charged while the rest of the people in the inn screammed and ran away.

[fireinthedust]

sounds about right.

It kinda makes sense. I saw the broken spells. heh. Some focus on making magic items more mysterious would be good; and including the insanity rules and doing things with them might not be bad.

The caster disparity might be solvable if I can get another look at the power rules. Maybe add some combat feats, and grant non-casters some extra options depending on concept.

yeah, that could work. Also some plot-element stuff for Nobles (ie: they're politically powerful or important with contacts, at least in some respect), make Armsmen full fighters (or a PrC that grants them that much), and expand the lost abilities section. Everyone gets something special plot wise, and something important they can do in context in a fight (ie: a magic sword or item, animal followers (wolves), casting, or the ability to be ignored by foes, etc.)

My question would be how to ignore the FX side of D&D, and what I could add in without ruining the WoT side of it. Using Gnolls and Minotaurs as Trolloc stat varients is one thought. Maybe some templates...
The items and other options I'd have to think about, and how to keep the game going without special effects all the time.

[Krrth]

One thing to remember. As per the books at the time the RPG was published, no one knew how to make magic items. They were usually not for sale at any price, and could only be found while adventuring. I know our DM let us start off with some minor item. I took a masterwork Warders blade, and our other shienarian took a cloak that gave cold resist 5, only outside.
As for nobles, I seem to recall that part of the class was feature called something like "Favor". They got one every couple of levels, and could call it in to get special requests granted. Of course, not owning the books, our GM could have made some of it up, plus he also had the expansion.

[Innis Cabal]

Balefire....ah....memories. Sad that the game stopped being printed

[fireinthedust]

I wonder if healing surges would be good for martial PCs. It'd keep the game going, and if it's only one per encounter, it could certainly come in handy. maybe also action points and higher hp. Considering healing is once a day, it might not be a bad idea.

[Krrth]

I'm not sure about healing surges, but our GM toyed with the idea of healing not being once a day, but once a wound. It meant players have to keep track of each wound they took, but the one time we tried it it seemed to work out fairly well.

[Hzurr]

RPing is good though...I still have fond memories of our first encounter. We were in an inn when Trollocs attacked. The two Shienarians pulled swords and charged while the rest of the people in the inn screammed and ran away.

Well...yeah. I mean, they're Shienarians. I would have expected nothing less. I'd forgotten how awesome they were.

[fireinthedust]

I wonder what additional abilities could work for the game, including weaves and talent groups.

Maybe some PrCs for Aes Sedai orders, and the Aiel clans and groups. Also maybe the blademaster could have maneuvers not unlike 4e, with special options thrown in. Considering balance issues...

healing sounds good. Maybe once "per encounter" or rather every rest period or so.

[Krrth]

Well...yeah. I mean, they're Shienarians. I would have expected nothing less. I'd forgotten how awesome they were.
The real fun came in when our two characters not only charged the Trollocs, we both managed to crit on our first attack. Two swings, two dead Trollocs. Of course, my Blademaster has been trying to kill a fade for 15 levels now without any luck. Everyone *else* in the party has, but not him.

I wonder what additional abilities could work for the game, including weaves and talent groups.

Maybe some PrCs for Aes Sedai orders, and the Aiel clans and groups. Also maybe the blademaster could have maneuvers not unlike 4e, with special options thrown in. Considering balance issues...

healing sounds good. Maybe once "per encounter" or rather every rest period or so.
Could work. Like I said, our with our experiment, once you were healed, any remaining damage had to heal normally. Any injuries you took after that healing were eligible for healing. As for the blademaster, that actually worked rather well as is. I mean, being able to simply declare maximum damage was kinda cool, ya know? Although ToB hadn't been released yet, giving a blademaster access to selected forms from that book might be justified in setting. I mean, one person they *thought* was a blademaster scared an entire room of soldiers.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Wilder Talent was pretty abuseable as I recall at low levels.

[namo]

I haven't seen the rules, but to avoid the RJ storyline one could set the action in an alternate Age. Since history repeats itself, it would be similar but different.

But the real question: do you get bonus healing ability when you tug your braid ? Extra power when you decree people of the opposite sex are crazy ? :smallwink:

[Emperor Tippy]

Sorry about this but it's an honest question: Why in the world do you care about the balance of Wheel of Time d20?

It was never meant to be balanced, the source material wasn't balanced, balancing it by the rules will never work with the setting, and it's generally a waste of time to try and balance it.

Aes Sedai do some very nasty **** in the books, as in erase cities from time nasty. All of the systems balance is supposed to come from RP. It's not a system you use for a pickup game, its one you use for a deep, RP heavy, game with a party that doesn't care that the fighter can't take out the caster and where the caster's are played by mature players who don't nova everything in sight.

[fireinthedust]

Emperor Tippy: ...I agree! I'm thinking more about making non-casters fun to play, rather than having to sit in the back the whole time; that and more options than allowed in the book as written. I took a look at 4e and started hashing out earth benders using those rules. For this, I want to see if I can use what I've got to make an entirely setting-appropriate set of encounters (which isn't easy; D&D can be spastically SFX real easily)
Very good point and I'm glad you asked. RP it is!

Plot: I hashed one out at work, actually, between this and my last post. It'd be vaguely during the books, approximately after Rand has started being "the dragon" and leads the Aiel into the wetlands (if someone absolutely *had* to play an Aiel, for some reason) along with his armies slowly trying to conquer the world. However, I intend (if I run this) to avoid *events* if not major NPCs; so no reinacting parts of the series, but they could easily meet Rand or Moiraine, go to the White Tower, etc. Partly because I stopped reading years ago when Matt got hit by a wall, and partly because I don't want to re-read books right now; I know enough to run in the world, but not enough to challenge more current readers or fanatical accuracy. Kinda like if I tried running a Star Trek game.

hair pulling: yeah, there should be a feat for that. Seriously, I thought she was going to go Red Ajah for sure.

[Aquillion]

I would suggest you read up on Ars Magica, which is in some ways very very close to the Wheel of Time in terms of things like magic power and organization, overall setting, the functions of magic items, extended lifespans for casters, and so on. (Many of the Houses of Hermes are very similar to Aes Sedai Ajahs.) You would have to condense Ars Magica's fifteen arts and forms into five, which would have serious balance issues. An Ars Magica-style virtue/flaw system also has support for giving characters 'wild' magical abilities like wolfbrotherhood and dreaming and so on.

Ars Magica has some ways of making non-casters more fun to play, although it comes down to more adjusting the assumptions of the entire game and the framework in which you play it than in balance. Basically, in Ars Magica (at least the versions I played) you have three classes of characters: Grogs, who are generic redshirt grunts and minor servants; Companions, who are skilled characters with backstories and nifty abilities of their own; and Magi, who are the real stars of the story. (You can also play some 'magi-equivalent' characters with similar powers, like faeries or casters from rival traditions or whatever.)

Normally, the way it works is that a group of players will work together to design an entire covenant of Magi. Each player will get one magi character, but you won't use them all at once for most stories... instead, you'd also have a few companions each, and then a ton of grogs who are shared between everyone. While it might seem odd that anyone would want to play a low-powered grog, this means that you can also play grogs as redshirts, having them charge forward to get killed, then switching easily to another (this is a world where reviving the dead isn't possible... another important part of the Wheel of Time setting, mostly.)

[fireinthedust]

I read the sourcebook years ago. I remember thinking "okay, so you're either a powerful mage or else you're a sub-optimal grunt... what a weird way to have fun". Now, if I understand correctly, the entire group plays the entire group of characters (mages, grunts, slightly more powerful non-mages, etc.)?

Cool, and I see the similarities (and may mine for ideas, so thanks), but I'm thinking about the specific set of rules published by wizards.

I wonder how many people could get the rules if I ran a game here. (another reason to try and expand the rules beyond the book!)

Wikipedia is great for the setting info. I'm going nuts trying to cram for this (kinda fun; it's a hobby, so don't fret... also, some people do drugs for kicks, so don't frown on me! :smalltongue: )

I guess the supernatural should be really mysterious.

[Aquillion]

Now, if I understand correctly, the entire group plays the entire group of characters (mages, grunts, slightly more powerful non-mages, etc.)? Sort of. Most players would have multiple characters, but each player would have 'their' Magi character, which wouldn't be shared, and usually Companions wouldn't be shared either. Grogs tend to be shared, though.

But yes, the idea is everyone has a magi character of their own, but not everyone uses all their magi all at once. This allows for non-magi to feel more 'expendable' (because you put less time into making your companion, and very little time at all into the grogs), which also means they tend to have more to do -- often the magi will have to hang back while the people who aren't so important go up and risk their lives. Sometimes it's fun to play a powerful magi, and sometimes it's fun to play Benny the Guard wot has a wart on his nose, basically, especially since you know you can have Benny the Guard die or risk a heroic death without really losing too much. And you can even have your magi character sitting back in his tower doing research or whatever to become more powerful while you're out having laughs as Benny the Guard.

(Of course, Ars Magica -- at least in the edition I played -- also has several rules that hold magic back, to support this -- one big one is that by default all spells go off at the end of the round, unless you take serious penalties to rush casting. Additionally, almost all spells carry serious risks, another thing that crops up in the Wheel of Time, especially for male channelers in the 'original' setting. And there's unspecified but dire penalties for being under the effects of magic constantly, so you can't do a DMM persist sort of trick all the time like people do in D&D -- at the very least you'd accumulate Twilight Points, which make you die when you get too many. This and other rules help make mages more vulnerable no matter how powerful they are, and ensures that there's usually something for grogs and companions to do.)