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SadisticFishing
2008-08-19, 05:46 PM
I have TONS of them. New with the system, we're going to build characters within a few weeks, but I want a bit of a better understanding of the rules.

Exept my questions are so ridiculously vague and numerous that using a message board probably isn't the best way to solve this problem. PM me if you want a more... conversation, otherwise, I'll do my best to ask.

Okay this system is twisted and weird and so far I love it.

The character I want to play is a simple shapeshifter - or so I thought, until I read the power. Then my head exploded. Still cleaning mess off the walls!

Also, my other character concept is a hyper intelligent hamster (or similar creature) in a robot suit, but my GM thinks it's too complicated to build.

Thanks!

Kyeudo
2008-08-19, 06:02 PM
Also, my other character concept is a hyper intelligent hamster (or similar creature) in a robot suit, but my GM thinks it's too complicated to build.


Actually, this one is probably the easiest.

Most of your points are dumped into Device, for all your robot suit goodness.

The rest go to buying Fine size and your Intelligence increases.

Congratulations, you now have a hyper-intelligent power suited hamster.

HardboiledJJ
2008-08-19, 06:15 PM
That. . .that's simply genius! As soon as I get to my book I'm gonna stat up a mecha-hamster of my very own!

All the cool kids are doing it. . .

SadisticFishing
2008-08-19, 06:15 PM
Huh. That does sound simple, supposedly actual robots are very difficult to create (constructs), and that's how I figured you'd deal with a hamster in a suit (since it's not like it's really a suit, as his movements and its do not really connect directly at all, unlike, say, Iron Man). But that DOES sound simple. Thanks.

MammonAzrael
2008-08-19, 06:20 PM
It doesn't have to be a humanoid-shaped suit.

Giant armored Space Hamsters of doom! I really hope you can get a companion or minion or something and name him Minsk.

SadisticFishing
2008-08-19, 06:23 PM
It doesn't have to be a humanoid-shaped suit.

Giant armored Space Hamsters of doom! I really hope you can get a companion or minion or something and name him Minsk.

Haha I like the second bit.

But to the first bit, just imagine having Iron Man or War Machine following you around, and eventually he takes off his mask and GASP! A hamster!

Okay, real specific rules question:

Alternate Power. If I take that on Growth or Shrinking, is that 1 point to basically learn both skills for the price of one? (well, +1... yeah)

Shapeshift: So if I understand this, whenever I use this, I multiply the rank by 5, and then put that many points wherever I want (in physical things only though)? Seems relatively simple as a concept, but REALLY complicated in gameplay. Also, how does this interact with Growth and Shrinking? Can I put points in those, and save my points from Shapeshift for more physical stats? That may not be worth it, I'll do the math later, but I'm still confused about this power.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-20, 09:01 AM
Huh. That does sound simple, supposedly actual robots are very difficult to create (constructs), and that's how I figured you'd deal with a hamster in a suit (since it's not like it's really a suit, as his movements and its do not really connect directly at all, unlike, say, Iron Man). But that DOES sound simple. Thanks.

They really aren't. The only thing that really distinguishes them is a lack of Con and Immunity (Fortitude effects). Your hamster's suit should probably have Fortitude.

You could also go with constructing the hamster as a "sidekick" and the robotic suit as the "main character." That's more complicated, but it's perfectly doable. (In fact, there's some example hero in, I think, Hero High who's constructed this way.)

SadisticFishing
2008-08-20, 03:58 PM
Fair enough. Where are the rules for battlesuits? I really can't find any.

batsofchaos
2008-08-20, 04:31 PM
Battlesuits are an option of the Device power. The device power and details on building one appears at the bottom of page 81. Page 128 talks about battlesuits specifically and the sorts of things you might want to buy for one.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-20, 04:47 PM
Fair enough. Where are the rules for battlesuits? I really can't find any.

There are no "rules for battlesuits." That's not how the game works. Equipment and Devices (which covers "super"-equipment, like Iron Man's suit or Cap's Shield) are defined with Powers.

Look at the example characters (always look at the example characters - they are frigging great, especially in the supplemental books). A battlesuit is a Device (hard to remove) with powers like Blast, Protection, Flight, Immunity (Life Support), and so on.

It's not "I want X item, what do they do?" It's "I want my item to have these powers, and it's not really any different from having them myself, but since it's a Device it's cheaper."

SadisticFishing
2008-08-20, 04:54 PM
Ah, yeah, that's what I was starting to assume, but looking at the sample The Battlesuit confused me. A lot. Heh.

Okay, so Alger-BOT is starting to come together.

Any advice or anything for the Shapeshifter? It looks extremely complicated. But I'm fine with that.

Oh and how Shapeshifting, Grow, and Shrink all work together.

batsofchaos
2008-08-20, 05:55 PM
Shapeshift is a power that is extremely versatile, and as such requires a lot of prep-time beforehand or you run the risk of slowing the game down in order to accomodate figuring out stats for a specific form. Basically, the power works as such:

You buy ranks in shapeshift (at 8 PP a rank). Each rank gives you five points to work with, plus the points you've already spent in physical traits. You then use these points to construct the stats for alternate forms. These points can also be spent on buying growth or shrinking as appropriate to the assumed shape. So if you wanted to transform into a gorilla, you would need to buy four ranks on growth to increase your size to large (provided you were medium to start with), which would also give you 8 points of strength and 4 points of constitution. This would cost 12 points from shape-shift, so you'd need at least 3 ranks in shape-shift (or two and shift two ranks from physical stats around) in order to buy that. Having additional ranks allows you to buff up the transformation to have feats, skills, and other stats that are more fitting for the choice of transformation.

Sounds complicated? If you're trying to do it spur of the moment in a game, yeah it is. But you can build several different transformations as your "usuals" so you have their stats on-hand for when you transform.

That make sense?

SadisticFishing
2008-08-20, 06:00 PM
Alrighty, cool, that's what I figured (complicated spur of the moment, doable planned ahead).

Is there an errata anyways? I Googled it but only found the 1e thing (I think). Is Growth 3 points/rank, or 4?

Okay, so to build a decent shapeshifter, I don't actually need to max out shapeshift, as if I want to grow or have decent physical attributes it's better to put them in right away... Hrm.

SadisticFishing
2008-08-20, 06:07 PM
And growing appears to be very bad for hitting, and decent for damage... But no where near as decent as just shoving more points into strength...

This game is weird.

Edit: And Growth Strike seems totally confusing to me. Is it ever set up as an actual feat? As is, do I make my attack in my small form, then grow as many sizes as I want, getting +2 str, +1 con per rank, then doing +1 damage per size I changed? Which means let's say I go Miniscule, I get a huge bonus to attack, then mid attack, change to Large, Getting +5 damage, and another +1 damage per rank I have in Growth (for each two strength?)

And how does Growth work? Do I always have the +2 str/+1 con, even if I'm in a smaller size? What if I use Alternate Power for Growth/Shrink? In fact, how does Alternate Power work in the first place? Is it as it reads (pay 1 point to get two skills equal rank)

batsofchaos
2008-08-20, 06:14 PM
Well, you're supposed to use the points from shape-shifting to buy the points for growth/shrinking per transformation. Buying growth or shrinking seperately gives you the power to change size in your normal form.

So three ranks in shape-shift will get you up to large size and give you three other points to invest in other physical traits, skills, powers, or feats. More ranks will of course give you more capabilities in a given form, and likewise picking a form that doesn't change your size will give you more ranks to put into other things.

batsofchaos
2008-08-20, 06:48 PM
It doesn't say for sure whether you use your original attack bonus or not. Personally, I'd rule that you make the attack roll after transforming, so you use your roll based on your new size and strength, and then get the bonus per size-change.

When you activate growth you get the str/con bonuses, they're not always on. Additionally, if you only partially activate growth, you only get that portion of the bonuses. For example, if you have eight ranks in growth, you can get +16 str/+8 con and grow two sizes, but if you were in a tight area and could only stand to get to a large size, you could do so (provided you didn't take the full power drawback) and only have +8 str/+4con.

Alternate power works by allowing you to "share" power points between two powers, by limiting it to one power at a time. So in other words, you can have both growth and shrink, allowing you to change your size at will but only using one power at a time. It's basically a way to let you have more powers than your power point would normally allow, but only one power at a time.

SadisticFishing
2008-08-20, 08:08 PM
Okay, I'm starting to get it. All of it. Cool.

How do I make myself a hamster though? I can't find rules for starting size or anything.

batsofchaos
2008-08-20, 09:34 PM
The rules for size are on page 34. Other than that, the fact that the character's a hamster is just fluff. Well, you could maybe make him mute, which would be a disability drawback.

Beleriphon
2008-08-20, 09:55 PM
The rules for size are on page 34. Other than that, the fact that the character's a hamster is just fluff. Well, you could maybe make him mute, which would be a disability drawback.

Assuming Tiny size: Shrinking 12 (Extra: Continuous; F: Permanent; Power Feat: Innate), I don't have the point cost, but should be the same as the base cost +2/rank +1pp for the feat.

This makes you the size of a hamster, all of the time naturally, and it can't be Nullified (as the power) since its a natural state.

If I'm gettig you right what you want is a robot/construct suit. I'd just make it an actual character as you envision it, and just fluff the power suit stuff. You then take the Character Drawback "Noraml Identity" to cover the fact that its actually a hamster in a suit. This would save you a ton of points, probably be easier to use in play, and still allow a GM to take the hamster out of the suit some times.

For a comic example Captain Marvel/Billy Batson would work the same way. You don't build Billy and give him Alternate Form, you build Captain Marvel with a drawback since he's the hero, Billy is the drawback of being power by Shazam.


You could also go with constructing the hamster as a "sidekick" and the robotic suit as the "main character." That's more complicated, but it's perfectly doable. (In fact, there's some example hero in, I think, Hero High who's constructed this way.)

Its a reverse sidekick. I think its covered in the core rulebook, or at least explained in concept.

fireinthedust
2008-08-21, 07:02 AM
Shapeshift and Shrink/Growth: you keep powers separate if they aren't linked to each other. If you have shapeshift *and* shrink, you would build whatever form you want (a polar bear, a truck, etc.) and then shrink that form when you use shrink.

Attack Bonus: No, you have your base character sans powers, right? They have an attack bonus (Base Attack Bonus). You roll that, and modify by any feats you have (accurate attack, etc.).

I'm double-checking on the atomicthinktank thread, but I'm really sure the change in size would get you to subtract the difference between max and min size categories (ie: if you start miniscule +12 to hit, and go to Large (-1) you would attack with +11 to your regular BAB to hit for growth strike).

Beleriphon
2008-08-21, 04:54 PM
I'm double-checking on the atomicthinktank thread, but I'm really sure the change in size would get you to subtract the difference between max and min size categories (ie: if you start miniscule +12 to hit, and go to Large (-1) you would attack with +11 to your regular BAB to hit for growth strike).

Not quite. Being miniscule would provide a +12 to hit, by virtue of being miniscule. Increasing size to Tiny, or Small would make that bonus go down. So by the time you get to Large you would be a -1 to attack on what ever the base bonus would be. The +12 isn't a a base bonus unless you purchased that with points.