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View Full Version : opinions on a martial character in 3.5 core-ish



amanamana
2008-08-19, 11:09 PM
What do you guys think would be a nice build for a 1st level martial character, up to, say, level 10 in 3.5?
Starting in 1st level. I'm not asking for the full build, just overall ideas.

He may even rely on a bit of magic, or UMD, on some point of the build, but that's not his point. He is a warrior. He likes to fight (melee and ranged) and would use magic to get some edge or have a backup plan, but would not be dependent of it.

No need to be the mega-hiper-uber-warrior! Although I wouldn't mind...:smallbiggrin:

Core and something from the complete adventurer or warrior, if you have to (and I know you will...:smallwink:).

Thanks in advance.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-19, 11:24 PM
Power Attack + Shock Trooper + Leap Attack

Maybe use a reach weapon. Maybe throw in Karmic Strike. If those are the only books you can use, that's the best I can do, not that I'm a very good optimizer anyway. But there are only like two or three ways to make a basic martial character in 3.5e that's actually semi-good. :smalltongue:

RTGoodman
2008-08-19, 11:26 PM
Well, Core there's always the good ol' Barbarian/Fighter with a Greataxe and Power Attack. Good damage, good sticking power, some mobility, better skills than a straight fighter, and fun to play. If you throw in a couple Completes, you can throw on Leap Attack and a handful of other feats. Maybe pick up a PrC, but there's not any that I can think of now that are particularly awesome. If you really wanted some magic, maybe throw ranks in UMD and grab some wands of enlarge person or something.

If that's not your style, Core has enough options for a decent (if not really optimized) Paladin/Fighter build. You can still focus on Power Attack and whatnot, and maybe at higher levels pick up Mounted Combat feats and just run everyone down with super lance damage. (Rhino Hide is in Core, right?) Halfling or Gnome is probably better for this one since you'll be able to get a Medium mount into dungeons.

Alternatively, just play a Cleric. You've got the potential to be a melee beast and STILL have your full casting. Druid is the same way - the only thing you need to optimize a Druid is already in Core (Natural Spell). As a bonus, Druid'll net you the ability to be a spell-slingin' bear with another bear minion.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-19, 11:38 PM
With a race like human going Barbarian -1, F-2. The next 2-3 (middle levels) depend on the source books since most PCs will pursue a PRC to personal taste around L6.

If ToB is an option adding Martial Adept classes to the mix. I like Warblade -3 with F-2 and maybe Barbarian -1 (Moving faster than the rest of the party so - so if the rest of the party moves slower (In some groups that is a good thing:smallsmile:)

Depending on how important skill points are and how manuevers work for martial adept (If Swordsage maneuvers will fulfill the prereq for higher level manuevers as a Warblade) :

Barbarian -1 for faster movement and hit points, Swordsage - 1 for taking prerequisite Warblade manuevers, F- 2, Warblade -3 (Begin at fifth level with Warblade at IL-3 knowing prerequisites to personal taste so all manuevers could be second level, WB-2 would pick up another second level manuever and WB-3 would pick up a third level manuever with WBIL-5. PRCS to personal taste although after picking up a second level of Swordsage at some point probably a good idea.

Eldariel
2008-08-19, 11:50 PM
How about a martial Gish? Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Wizard 3 would be pretty good with a Sword and have magic to pump up his combat abilities. Note that while he has near full casting doesn't mean that he'd be a Wizard first and a Fighter second - it simply means that the boost-spells (think Mirror Image, Quickened True Strike, Greater Magic Weapon, (Greater) Heroism, Blinking, Haste, (Greater) Invisibility, (Overland) Flight, Alter Self/Polymorph/Polymorph Any Object/Shapechange if you are in a strong game, and so on) are of higher levels, and thus more powerful and last longer.

You could even do decently with a bow thanks to your pump-spells without actually dropping any feats for it. Now mind, this guy would probably be pretty dependant on Magic (that is, he wouldn't be able to fight a Fighter of equal level without it - obviously), but he'd still do the combat with his Sword instead of his spells - he'd just use those spells to make the Sword hit more often, and harder.


If that's not allowed, what these guys have said - with Complete Warrior, you can make a very fair Power Attacker (Power Attack > Shock Trooper > Leap Attack with the option of Combat Brute too). You could even have some battlefield control thrown in; get Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise > Improved Trip and you'll be felling people left and right (although the lockdown is far from complete without additional sources). Simple Fighter 10 could be decent, although Fighter 4/Barbarian 6 is definitely good too - more powerful, but less feats (and thus less versatile).

You are never going to be very good with a bow though. Best you can do is get a high Strength-classification bow and focus on pimping out your Str as much as possible with high opening Dexterity. Being an effective bow-user in coreish environment tends to require Magic. Rapid Shot is hardly worth the effort of acquiring and the other bow feats are really for bow-focused. I suppoes you could splash two levels of Ranger for Rapid Shot, but meh.


Note, everything changes if stuff like Player's Handbook II, Dungeonscape or Tome of Battle is added to the mix.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-20, 12:11 AM
Another interesting Gish would be a Slayer build:

(Urban) Ranger-1, Psion -5, (Psionic PRC-1 with BAB averaging otherwise Psion-6), Slayer -X (Psionics are not affected by armor).

Eldariel
2008-08-20, 12:16 AM
If SRD is indeed the Core you use, Psionic Gish is much better. Arcane Gish gets good with splatbooks, but all the Psionic Gishes need is right there. As a bonus, a Psionic Gish is somewhat better with a bow than an Arcane Gish. And Psionics opens up feats like Deep Impact. Oh, and Psionics also allows self-healing, something Arcane Magic has trouble getting before level 7 and Limited Wish (man is that spell nuts though - it gives you anything you need for 300xp and one 7th level slot - Heal, Raise Dead, Revivify, almost any offensive spells, anything).

Chronos
2008-08-20, 12:23 AM
Saph came up with a pretty good Core-only warrior, the horizon tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415). It works as-is, but I'm sure you could spice it up a bit with something from the Completes.

amanamana
2008-08-20, 01:28 AM
Thanks a lot, guys (and girls, if I'm missing someone).
The gish is something I like a lot, but not what I'm looking for right now.
I'm not a rookie to d&d at all, playing for way over a decade. But I thought of asking for some insights as I'm not playing 3.5 for the last 2 years or so.
I want something in line of a versatile warrior, who could use magic to gain some edge, but not the kind of guy who would use it as a regular tactic. So the CODzilla or the druid are not going to make it for me.
I'd like to avoid the divine kind of caster to. Somehow I don't feel much thrilled with the idea of using someone's else power. I had a wizard, 5 years ago, who always picked on the party's divine casters, telling them how he worked his ass out to bend magic to his will, instead of just sitting there waiting for his Holy Sugar Daddy to fill him with power, as long as he was a nice b****!
I'm thinking more in the line of taking the first level in rogue, for the UMD and the juicy tons of skills, but then turning on the warriors classes for more HP's and attack options. Making my way trough the first levels of some of them and taking the old power attack + leap attack + shock trooper.
Thanks again, and don't be shy to let me know your ideas about this and other options in this line of thought.
Ah... I'm going to take a look at this tripper guy.
greetings.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-20, 01:34 AM
The variant Psychic Rogue at WOTC might be interesting especially with the Feat Rogue Variant since it gets 15 first to fifth powers with 100 PP at L20.

amanamana
2008-08-20, 02:01 AM
Level 20?!?!
I'm pretty sure this game won't even get close to this...
When I wrote level 10 in the OP, it was already a bit of a stretch.
thanks anyway.
greetings.

Hal
2008-08-20, 06:44 AM
In core, there are two major ways to be all you can be as a martial character:

1) Fighter/Barbarian with Leap Attack/Shock Trooper. With a two-handed weapon, this will get you roughly 3-4x the damage of your power attack (depending on if you read the errata). Depending on your style, you CAN throw in Frenzied Berzerker as a PrC, but a lot of people will advise against that. It's easy to shut down and your allies are always in danger.

2) The Mounted Charger. This can be straight Fighter, or Fighter/Paladin. Power Attack + Spirited Charge = Major Damage.

Those are the most significant. Other variants include the spiked chain tripper/disarmer. Complete Warrior and Adventurer include some options to make Rogues more helpful, but nothing that's revolutionary. PHB2 and Complete Scoundrel have better options for getting the most combat out of a Rogue.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-20, 10:02 AM
Level 20?!?!
I'm pretty sure this game won't even get close to this...
When I wrote level 10 in the OP, it was already a bit of a stretch.
thanks anyway.
greetings.

L10 knows 8 first to third level psionic powers with 20 base PP.

kjones
2008-08-20, 10:13 AM
Fighter 2/Rogue X gives you a nice "martial rogue" type character, especially when combined with the Thug variant from Unearthed Arcana.

amanamana
2008-08-20, 01:51 PM
Hey, thanks a lot for the insight.
About the psy thing: I really doesn't remember much of the rules, so I guess I'll leave it for the next.

greetings.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-20, 01:55 PM
Just FYI :smallcool:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b

Always thought they should receive Charm as a power.

Deepblue706
2008-08-20, 05:12 PM
Why not try a Halfling Mounted Fighter?

Get Mounted Combat and Archery feats. You will have excellent mobility, crazy charge damage, and ranged attacks for when your enemies are at a distance. Keep in mind, you can make full attacks with ranged weapons even when your mount moves. The reason you're a Halfling is because you can ride a medium mount, which can maneuver in dungeons. You might feel down about losing STR and using smaller weapons - but hey, mounts trained for war get free attacks on a DC15 ride check. Plus, triple damage with a lance with Spirited Charge compensates, too.

A Fighter of this sort can contribute to a party rather well. Especially well when you get a flying mount.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-20, 05:26 PM
Archery, unfortunately, has damage issues while in core. I'd recommend picking up Rogue levels for increased damage.

Knaight
2008-08-20, 05:58 PM
The rogue class is a good idea, that said archery also gets some of the best magic abilities, and is very powerful. And there is always the arcane archer when you just really need to cause havoc.

Saph
2008-08-20, 06:06 PM
In core, there are two major ways to be all you can be as a martial character:

1) Fighter/Barbarian with Leap Attack/Shock Trooper. With a two-handed weapon, this will get you roughly 3-4x the damage of your power attack (depending on if you read the errata). Depending on your style, you CAN throw in Frenzied Berzerker as a PrC, but a lot of people will advise against that. It's easy to shut down and your allies are always in danger.

Not really core . . . well, okay, he did say Complete Adventurer/Warrior.

Chronos has already given a link to my Horizon Tripper build, but I'll plug it again. :) I've played it several times and I can testify that it's very effective at early levels. We played a mini-campaign that ran from level 3 to 5 and my Horizon Tripper was easily the strongest PC in the party, making the spellcasters look thoroughly weedy by comparison. Once you get a Ranger level and a wand of cure light wounds, you can keep going all day.

- Saph

Eldariel
2008-08-20, 06:32 PM
The rogue class is a good idea, that said archery also gets some of the best magic abilities, and is very powerful. And there is always the arcane archer when you just really need to cause havoc.

The problem with Arcane Archer is:
-It requires Arcane Caster Level, but doesn't advance it.
-Level 2 ability requires lots of powerful area-effect spells, Arcane Archer doesn't even improve any of your existing spells, let alone give you new ones.
-Level 4, 6 and 8-abilities are all 1/day and not very powerful (Phase Arrow is handy, but since you can't combine it with the other abilities, getting 1 hit isn't very helpful as it still deals next-to-no damage and since Hail of Arrows is limited by your AA level, it isn't even good for clearing mooks - you should use Imbue Arrow with powerful spells for that anyways).
-The Enhance Arrow-ability is almost as good as Greater Magic Weapon (3rd level hours/level spell). Almost.
-Level 16 is the earliest you can get Arrow of Death. It takes forever to make, you can only have one and it only requires DC20 Fort-save! Around CR16, there's literally 0 creatures who can reasonably fail a DC20 Fort-save, so there's a 95% chance of the ability doing nothing.

In other words, the class has one worthwhile ability (at level 2), hefty requirements, and the class itself gives that one worthwhile ability no support (since you don't advance spellcasting). In some builds, you could possibly fit two levels of AA in, but in none more than that. There're tons of fixes around for it, but for Vanilla Arcane Archer, there's absolutely no reason to go with it.

Oh yeah, and core Elves suck so unless you have splatbook, you also have to eat up Constitution-penalty (literally the only stat no character can afford a low score in - everyone needs hitpoints, and Fort-saves are the worst to fail).

My point is, if you want to be an Arcane Archer, do not, under any circumstances, take levels in the DMG Arcane Archer Prestige Class. Eldritch Knight is so much better at being an arcane archer than the namesake class that it's not even funny. If you can pick up one of those Arcane Archer-fixes that float around though, knock yourself out. This one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75222) ended up pretty well, for example (although was never actually finished).


But since you didn't explicitly wish to be a focused Archer, I guess all that is wasted. Rogue does get some damage bonuses, so a Fighter/Rogue/Barbarian Dual Class could be a fairly good Archer/Warrior (without magic) provided that you can start with both, an ungodly Str and an ungodly Dex.

Prophaniti
2008-08-20, 08:44 PM
I had a really good time with a fighter/barbarian who fought with an axe and a shield. Take the Shield Fighter from PHBII if you can use it, if not, then just Imp Shield Bash and the TWF feats will do. With a high STR and rage, you're dealing a fair amount of damage per hit, getting a fair amount of swings, and keeping your AC higher thanks to the shield. Get a Shield of Bashing as soon as possible for the best results. You're shield will quickly outpace your axe for damage, unless you use something like a Bastard Sword, Maul, or Dwarven Waraxe and keep the enchantment up on it, though doing so costs you another feat.

Far from optomized, of course, but I had fun with it. I later took Shield Charge and Mage Slayer feats, and it got even more fun.

EndlessWrath
2008-08-20, 08:55 PM
I personally liked my Trip/disarm monkey. Trip a character, Getting up is considered an attack of opportunity... attack, end of their turn. Your turn. Trip.
Take Combat reflexes To gain multiple AoOs in one round, then just watch the slaughter.

Otherwise. I consider War hulk Prestige class to be very useful to you, though the only book I can think of it in is the Miniatures handbook. Ogre is the lowest level adjust large creature i can find in the MM. So Ogre -> fighter / barbarian. Don't put any skill points into char, int, or wis based skills (except for intimidate) Since you'll lose them anyways, and watch the ridiculous strength gain happen (+2 strength/level of prestige class + ability to throw large items into targets + greater cleavage). I do believe you have to take cleave + power atk.

Jack_Simth
2008-08-20, 08:56 PM
If you really wanted some magic, maybe throw ranks in UMD and grab some wands of enlarge person or something.
Potions of Enlarge Person, not wands.

Wands take a standard action, or the length of time it takes to cast the spell - whichever is more (and in the case of Enlarge Person, that's 1 round). With a potion, it's a flat standard action to drink, regardless of the casting time.

But yeah - a Druid will often do it better. Play a halfling, gnome, or other small race with no Con penalty. At 1st, use a Riding Dog animal companion (it's the combat monkey of the Core 1st level group), and put it in leather barding (no armor check penalty, so proficiency doesn't matter). Take Mounted Combat and max ranks in Ride to boost it's effective AC even further. You just sit there and cast Cure spells, possibly laying out with a sling or something if the opponent stays away.

At fourth, do the same thing, except with an Ape (it's the best combat monkey of the 4th level group, except for the little issue that it doesn't have Pounce).

At fifth, hang on to your animal companion, but use wildshape for the five hours a day you get it.

At sixth, take Natural Spell. The rest is very well known.

A few tricks:
When drinking a potion, the person drinking it is considered to have cast the spell. This means that your Share Spells ability functions for, say, potions of Enlarge Person. That Riding Dog (or Wolf, if you want that feel) is now Large. Go to town. That Ape is now Huge. Have fun.

... and don't forget the potion of invisibility. It's a "run away, 300 gp" card that no character can do without.

LordOkubo
2008-08-20, 09:13 PM
Wands take a standard action, or the length of time it takes to cast the spell - whichever is more

Minor note, actually they take the length of time of the spell, no matter what that is, even if it's a swift action. Especially useful for Rogues wishing to SA plants/undead/golems.

RTGoodman
2008-08-20, 10:19 PM
Potions of Enlarge Person, not wands.

Wands take a standard action, or the length of time it takes to cast the spell - whichever is more (and in the case of Enlarge Person, that's 1 round). With a potion, it's a flat standard action to drink, regardless of the casting time.

Ah, true. I always forget that enlarge person is a one round casting time. Still, wand works if you've got time to buff. LordOkubo is right about it wands taking the amount of time as the spell normally takes - I think it was changed/clarified in the Rules Compendium.


A few tricks:
When drinking a potion, the person drinking it is considered to have cast the spell. This means that your Share Spells ability functions for, say, potions of Enlarge Person. That Riding Dog (or Wolf, if you want that feel) is now Large. Go to town. That Ape is now Huge. Have fun.

I didn't believe this was possible, and then I remembered that you can share spells even if they don't normally affect creature's of your companions type. So that does indeed work, but the problem is that "If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the animal companion if the companion moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the animal again, even if it returns to the druid before the duration expires." So once you've enlarged yourself and your now-Huge ape, you still have to stay within 5 feet of each other (unless I'm just not reading that correctly).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-20, 10:24 PM
There's a feat I consider vital, though not core, that expands the shared spell radius to 30'. Handy, most of the time.

Jack_Simth
2008-08-21, 06:13 AM
Ah, true. I always forget that enlarge person is a one round casting time. Still, wand works if you've got time to buff. LordOkubo is right about it wands taking the amount of time as the spell normally takes - I think it was changed/clarified in the Rules Compendium.

Ah.

Mind you, the Rules Compendium is a bit of a sore spot with me. According to the Rules Compendium, the Rules Compendium is essentially errata.

According to the standard rules of precedence, the DMG and PHB take precedence over the Rules Compendium.

... and Errata is supposed to be free.


I didn't believe this was possible, and then I remembered that you can share spells even if they don't normally affect creature's of your companions type. So that does indeed work, but the problem is that "If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the animal companion if the companion moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the animal again, even if it returns to the druid before the duration expires." So once you've enlarged yourself and your now-Huge ape, you still have to stay within 5 feet of each other (unless I'm just not reading that correctly).
You do need to stay within five feet of each other, but the plan above is to ride the animal companion until such time as you get Wildshape, so that's not too much of an issue.

BobVosh
2008-08-21, 06:25 AM
Orge or any other LA+HD is tough to play at low levels, because either you are OP over the party and don't advance, or you are weaker and have dead levels when advancing.

I always liked at level 1 you can have a +5 to hit for 2d4+1d6+7 with a race noone likes, the halforc. Then you can go fighter/rogue for more leveling up goodness.

Build starts with Half-orc warlock, feat is Exotic-Chain.
Take hideous blow, add in str of 18 with +2 from HO to get 20.
Then you can advance fighter and rogue, or do the trip fighter/shock trooper builds all these people recommend a reach/two handed weapon. Thus the chain is fine with this.

Although I always liked rogue/swashbuckler for daring outlaw.

Curmudgeon
2008-08-21, 09:44 AM
There's nothing wrong with dwarf Barbarian 1/Fighter 9. You get speed 30', proficiency with dwarven waraxes, and all the usual racial abilities of a dwarf. This is an equal or better choice than human Fighter 10 in every aspect except for skill points.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-21, 09:49 AM
Thou shalt not take odd fighter levels!

Curmudgeon
2008-08-22, 02:30 AM
Thou shalt not take odd fighter levels! And exactly how are you supposed to reach the even levels without taking the odd ones preceding?

Gralamin
2008-08-22, 02:38 AM
More correct would be "Though shall not end in odd fighter levels, unless the level is 1."