Maybe its because I'm a Warhammer-Fan

[WNxHasoroth]

But isn't this awesome?:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=f0m28yz6kmg

[Ossian]

But isn't this awesome?:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=f0m28yz6kmg

Couldn't agree more wholeheartedly! Still, they violate a bit of the WH fluff by slicing that easily into SMs armor with those swords, but for the drama we can take this and more. BTW; what the hell is the monstrosity at the end of the trailer? (I mean, officially) and how comes the deployed squad wasn't aware that a Tyranid invasion force was underway? Uh, I guess we'll have to wait and see the other cutscenes.

Still, praise the Emperor!

O.

[Jibar]

Uhhh... guys? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87984)

[WNxHasoroth]

Howling Banshees come equipped with Power Swords :smalltongue:

Edit: Um, eh, Dawn of War Two deserves two threads? :smalltongue:

[Closet_Skeleton]

what the hell is the monstrosity at the end of the trailer? (I mean, officially)

It was a lictor.

They're supposed to be invisable.

[LordVader]

Couldn't agree more wholeheartedly! Still, they violate a bit of the WH fluff by slicing that easily into SMs armor with those swords, but for the drama we can take this and more. BTW; what the hell is the monstrosity at the end of the trailer? (I mean, officially) and how comes the deployed squad wasn't aware that a Tyranid invasion force was underway? Uh, I guess we'll have to wait and see the other cutscenes.

Still, praise the Emperor!

O.

As said, the Eldar females were using power swords, essentially lightsabers. So they can cut Marine armor easily, but there's no way she killed the Marine.

And the thing at the end of the trailer was a Lictor. It, and genestealers (made famous in the game Space Hulk) are infiltration organisms that filter onto a planet to scout and spread disorder through the populace.

Gamespot has some awesome Tyranid screenies too.

[Matthew]

Those marines have got about 100% bigger since Dawn of War 1. I am pretty sure it would be very uncomfortable to wear that ridiculous over sized power armour...

[MeklorIlavator]

Those marines have got about 100% bigger since Dawn of War 1. I am pretty sure it would be very uncomfortable to wear that ridiculous over sized power armour...

Well, aren't marines themselves bigger? I think from the lore the armor only adds a couple feat, and its powered to boot. Also, this kinda thing should really be going on in the thread Jibar linked to.

[Matthew]

Well, aren't marines themselves bigger? I think from the lore the armor only adds a couple feat, and its powered to boot. Also, this kinda thing should really be going on in the thread Jibar linked to.

I'm going by his head size, and going to say no. Anyway, it's comparative. The size of the marines of the DoW1 trailer are very different to the size of the DoW2 trailer.

I dunno whether this thread is really misplaced. This is in particular about the trailer, rather than discussion of the upcoming game, which is why I suppose it is fine in the media section, rather than Gaming. Still, the moderators will merge the threads if there is a need.

[Mr. Scaly]

Wait...that's it?! There's been dozens of threads about how awesome Space Marines are and they just die that easily?!

[MeklorIlavator]

Wait...that's it?! There's been dozens of threads about how awesome Space Marines are and they just die that easily?!

Not quite. First thing to remember is that this is a game trailer, and that the trailer to the first one also played with canon for dramatic tension. From the wounds we say, some of those marines shouldn't be dead, but the creators want some dramatic tension. Also, the Eldar( the other humanoids in the video), are incredibly powerful as well, around the same tier(power wise) as marines, and the scenario played to their strengths (ambush)

[Mr. Scaly]

Not quite. First thing to remember is that this is a game trailer, and that the trailer to the first one also played with canon for dramatic tension. From the wounds we say, some of those marines shouldn't be dead, but the creators want some dramatic tension. Also, the Eldar( the other humanoids in the video), are incredibly powerful as well, around the same tier(power wise) as marines, and the scenario played to their strengths (ambush)

The first one was with the orcs, right?

Oh, well that makes a bit more sense. Still, that was pretty gruesome on all fronts and I doubt the body count was low.

[Callos_DeTerran]

and how comes the deployed squad wasn't aware that a Tyranid invasion force was underway?

The Shadow in the Warp. Helps with that sort of stuff.

[Ossian]

As said, the Eldar females were using power swords, essentially lightsabers. So they can cut Marine armor easily, but there's no way she killed the Marine

EXCELLENT! And please ye all, know that this will be used as evidence in future "Yoda/Vader vs WH40K characters"! And how appropriate that such insight comes from LordVader, while his avatar is a distinguished Ultra sitting on a well earned throne.

More on the trailer, I don't think any of the marines skewered or sliced actually died. It is more like they were incapacitated. They are not Terminators (in the T-800 sense) so when the green light in the helmet goes down, probably it is because of some horrible armored servos malfunction.

The armor shuts down, so no comms (we could not hear him if he was screaming, inside that thing), they are blind and deaf, but also cannot move.

He is probably bleeding to death inside, granted, but that will take a while. After all, with all the cybernetics, the double vital organs and whahaveyou, to kill a marine it takes an EYE shot (a headshot might not suffice) or several torso shredding blows!

O.

[13_CBS]

Who else thought that the Eldar Farseer (it was a Farseer, right?) was pretty hot (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PerverseSexualLust)? :smallamused:

[Tengu_temp]

Wait...that's it?! There's been dozens of threads about how awesome Space Marines are and they just die that easily?!

Just because WH40K fanboys claim that every Space Marine is like Superman in power armor doesn't mean that their claims are true.

[13_CBS]

Just because WH40K fanboys claim that every Space Marine is like Superman in power armor doesn't mean that their claims are true.

At the same time, though, a lot of 40k novels (including Dan Abnett's Brotherhood of the Snake) portray Space Marines as being able to fight off hordes and hordes of orcs and dark eldar with only a squad or five.

[Lostintransit]

Loved the trailer, its got me all excited!


As for the space marines dying easily, I have learnt to take anything with marines in a playable context with a pinch of salt, as they always tend to be depowered (Shudders at the thought of firewarrior......), but generally speaking it showed them fighting sensibly (like taking cover etc) and doing what they do best!

regards

[Tengu_temp]

At the same time, though, a lot of 40k novels (including Dan Abnett's Brotherhood of the Snake) portray Space Marines as being able to fight off hordes and hordes of orcs and dark eldar with only a squad or five.

Most WH40K novel writers are fanboys too, who started by playing the game and later went on to writing stories about it. The most objective measure of how strong Space Marines (and other soldiers too) are is to compare them stat-wise with other units in the miniature game. Strong, but not jaw-droppingly uber.

[13_CBS]

Most WH40K novel writers are fanboys too, who started by playing the game and later went on to writing stories about it. The most objective measure of how strong Space Marines (and other soldiers too) are is to compare them stat-wise with other units in the miniature game. Strong, but not jaw-droppingly uber.

Huh. I thought I heard from somewhere that Space Marines in the Tabletop games are "toned down from fluff levels" or somesuch.

Have I been lied to again?

[MeklorIlavator]

Nope. Games workshop has said that units from the game are different from the fluff so that its playable. For instance, Necrons and Space Marines are depowered and the Guard is boosted up slightly.

[Lostintransit]

Most WH40K novel writers are fanboys too, who started by playing the game and later went on to writing stories about it. The most objective measure of how strong Space Marines (and other soldiers too) are is to compare them stat-wise with other units in the miniature game. Strong, but not jaw-droppingly uber.

This would be the wrong way to do it! :smalltongue: Seeing how Games Workshop have said that space marines are under powered in the table top game for balance reasons.

They even did a 'proper' marine list and pratically no one could touch or hurt them, they are just insane.

This video I feel does marines fairer justice than they have been shown in other media, but still under represents them.

Regards

[Talkkno]

Who else thought that the Eldar Farseer (it was a Farseer, right?) was pretty hot (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PerverseSexualLust)? :smallamused:

Agreed :smallsmile:

[Talkkno]

He is probably bleeding to death inside, granted, but that will take a while.

O.

I'm pretty sure Space Marines have some super clotting mechanism that makes it pretty much impossible for them to die from bleeding wounds alone. So there's a good chance hell get back up and fighting in no time.

[hanzo66]

I'm guessing that SM's ability to survive depends on who they are. If they're helmeted grunts, then they usually suffer the fate of being Redshirts (or Redarmors what have you). A helmetless Captain is always a massive badass of the greatest extent.


Reverse example: La'Kais the Fire Warrior, who takes on the Ultramarines, the Imperial Guard and the Word Bearers in his first day of live combat and through a case of Enemy Mine takes down a Greater Daemon.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Reverse example: La'Kais the Fire Warrior, who takes on the Ultramarines, the Imperial Guard and the Word Bearers in his first day of live combat and through a case of Enemy Mine takes down a Greater Daemon.

Ah, but he's a faceless protagonist, so nobody can kill him as long as he can be bothered to load his saved games.

[warty goblin]

Edit: Um, eh, Dawn of War Two deserves two threads? :smalltongue:

Naturally, anything less would be heretical. The Imperium cannot be constrained to but one thread!

My favorite bit was the dreadnought grabbing those Banshees, bashing one to death, and then giving the other a flamer facial. "I have come to end you" oh yes...

[SmartAlec]

If you've ever played it, Inquisitor demonstrates how tough Space Marines are in the fiction quite well on the tabletop.

A good example: My gunfighter quick-drew and shot at a Space Marine, landing a shot on his unhelmeted head that knocked him to the ground. My gunfighter then proceeded to run over and empty his guns into the Marine's head.

He then reloaded, and emptied his guns again.

At which point, my gunfighter having run out of ammo, the Marine got back up and killed him with with one slice of his combat knife.

[Ascension]

If you've ever played it, Inquisitor demonstrates how tough Space Marines are in the fiction quite well on the tabletop.

A good example: My gunfighter quick-drew and shot at a Space Marine, landing a shot on his unhelmeted head that knocked him to the ground. My gunfighter then proceeded to run over and empty his guns into the Marine's head.

He then reloaded, and emptied his guns again.

At which point, my gunfighter having run out of ammo, the Marine got back up and killed him with with one slice of his combat knife.

See, the way I see it, there's no point in even having game mechanics for something that overwhelming. Just print up one page of "rules" for the game...

"If you anger a Space Marine, you die."

There, now wasn't that easy? Now let's go play something we can actually win, shall we?

[MeklorIlavator]

See, the way I see it, there's no point in even having game mechanics for something that overwhelming. Just print up one page of "rules" for the game...

"If you anger a Space Marine, you die."

There, now wasn't that easy? Now let's go play something we can actually win, shall we?
I think this is more the case of improper equipment. I mean, by that logic, Pit Fiends shouldn't be in DnD because a level one party would be creamed by a Pit Fiend. Similarly, a Space Marine will kill you unless you bring the necessary equipment to the fight, say a couple of Las Cannons and Krak missile launchers.

[Ecalsneerg]

... In Inquisitor? A game based around small groups of three or four characters?

Now, what you do is blow them to the Warp and back with psychic powers/daemon weapons/both. Much more fun.

[Mr. Scaly]

Just so I get an idea of what they're like, say you take an unarmoured SM and shoot him right between the eyes with a standard hand gun. Would he live?

[Mr._Blinky]

Just so I get an idea of what they're like, say you take an unarmoured SM and shoot him right between the eyes with a standard hand gun. Would he live?

Between the eyes? Yes. In the eye? Maybe no...

[DiabolicalFurby]

Yeah, the Black Carapace can stop most small arms fire. If you can stick the gun in it's mouth or point it at it's eye it will probably kill it but shooting it anywhere else with civilian grade weaponry (what you start out with in Dark Heresy) would just be cause for the GM to take a deep breath and then proceed to relate the manner of your grisly, and no doubt gore laden demise.

[Mr. Scaly]

Between the eyes? Yes. In the eye? Maybe no...

...What does the Imperium do, genetically modify its soldiers?

[Mr._Blinky]

...What does the Imperium do, genetically modify its soldiers?

Out the wazoo. Space Marines are genetically modified super-soldiers based off of the DNA of the "sons" of the setting's Messianic figure. They've got redundant organs (including two hearts), are almost three meters tall, can literally break a normal human in half with their bare hands, have bones capable of stopping gunfire, and are implanted with the Black Carapace, essentially and exoskeleton that allows them to interface with the massive powered armor they wear. They make the Spartans from Halo look pathetic (though Spartans probably do have a slight edge on speed).

[DiabolicalFurby]

When Mr. Scaly asked if the Imperium genetically modified it's soldiers... I thought he was joking. :smalleek:

Yeah, most are modified with 19 implants that run the gamut from a lung that absorbs toxins to a gland that turns their saliva into acid.

[freerangetroll]

When Mr. Scaly asked if the Imperium genetically modified it's soldiers... I thought he was joking. :smalleek:

Yeah, most are modified with 19 implants that run the gamut from a lung that absorbs toxins to a gland that turns their saliva into acid.


and aside from their heroes most of them can't go one on one with some of the other races more mundane troopers. 40k is a scary place.

[Mr. Scaly]

You can tell I don't play the game. :smalltongue:

Edit: So let me see if I understand it.

The Emperor was formed from all the psychically gifted beings on Earth some 40k years ago. He created 'sons' from his own DNA, giving them some of his powers. And SMs are implanted with some of they're DNA too?

[freerangetroll]

You can tell I don't play the game. :smalltongue:

Edit: So let me see if I understand it.

The Emperor was formed from all the psychically gifted beings on Earth some 40k years ago. He created 'sons' from his own DNA, giving them some of his powers. And SMs are implanted with some of they're DNA too?

Pretty much. Some differences. Just think of the Clanners from Battletech on crack.

[Mr. Scaly]

Pretty much. Some differences. Just think of the Clanners from Battletech on crack.

Another game I've never played. At least I'm on the right track. And if I remember there's an 'Imperial Guard' mixed in too?

[Innis Cabal]

Those are the basic Terrans and other humans from across the galaxy. Not really special, more like sheidling

[freerangetroll]

Another game I've never played. At least I'm on the right track. And if I remember there's an 'Imperial Guard' mixed in too?


Okay, now I don't know if you are pulling my leg or not, but I will bite. Imperial Guard are stock humans that make up the majority of the Emperor's forces. They have your standard infantry/air/mechanized structure and number in the billions. They go through heavy training as well, but because they are vanilla human they tend to get chewed up when they fight anything beyond heretic or rebellious worlds, or the grunts of the other major galactic powers.

[Mr. Scaly]

Okay, now I don't know if you are pulling my leg or not, but I will bite. Imperial Guard are stock humans that make up the majority of the Emperor's forces. They have your standard infantry/air/mechanized structure and number in the billions. They go through heavy training as well, but because they are vanilla human they tend to get chewed up when they fight anything beyond heretic or rebellious worlds, or the grunts of the other major galactic powers.

Seriously, I'm serious. Most of what I've read on wiki has been about the orks, tyranids and C'tan...the oddball races basically. I read up on the Horus Heresy because it sounded like a good read but as for the rest, I figured 'you see one human faction, you've seen them all.' Not true apparently.

[freerangetroll]

Seriously, I'm serious. Most of what I've read on wiki has been about the orks, tyranids and C'tan...the oddball races basically. I read up on the Horus Heresy because it sounded like a good read but as for the rest, I figured 'you see one human faction, you've seen them all.' Not true apparently.

The best part about the IG is the commissars. They are the moral officers of the IG and are granted martial law on the field of battle. They inspire you with grand words and personal leadership, but if you turn and run. Boom. Headshot.

[Mr. Scaly]

The best part about the IG is the commissars. They are the moral officers of the IG and are granted martial law on the field of battle. They inspire you with grand words and personal leadership, but if you turn and run. Boom. Headshot.

Just like the Soviet Union, eh? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_U3kklrmtQ)

[freerangetroll]

Just like the Soviet Union, eh? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_U3kklrmtQ)

Pretty much. Only with explosive rounds in a standard side arm!

[Talkkno]

Comassiar

CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM, a hero of our age, again and again performing daring acts that turn the tide of battle, inspiring others to do the same. He has faced countless threats to humanity and won despite overwhelming odds, from the fickle Eldar to brutish orcs. ov With such faith in the God Emperor does he resist the grasp of even the most terrible servants of the Dark Gods. A skilled swordsmen, a crackshot, and above all, a inspiring leader.No where else where you will find a more infulentul and well known Comassiar. He is a model you best emulate solider, should you want to see far and rise high in the Immortal God-Emperor domain.

[LordVader]

Wait...that's it?! There's been dozens of threads about how awesome Space Marines are and they just die that easily?!

Couple of points. First off, if this is bad, DO NOT watch the original Dawn of War trailer. You will cry. Marines charge uphill out of a defended firebase and are slaughtered by foes far beneath their caliber.

Secondly, only three marines actually died.
#1-Headshotted by a Ranger. No chance of survival.
#2-Stabbed pointblank by a Warp Spider Exarch, who will know where to stab a Marine to kill him.
#3- Killed by Eldar Farseer in a Mind War.
Aside from those three, any other casualties are just that, casualties, and will be back on their feet soon.

Thirdly, Eldar are formidable opponents, on par with Marines, and the Marines thrashed 'em. Let's take the body count.
At least 4-5 Howling Banshees killed, along with a Farseer (a powerful leader,) and a Warp Spider Exarch (another incredibly experienced warrior), and a Ranger. That's at least a 2:1 exchange in the Marines' favor against an opponent who was ambushing them, with superior numbers.

Trust me, the Marines did fine. :smallwink:

And on the subject of the Imperial Guard; They are, in fact, what defends the Imperium. The Space Marines are an elite intervention force, the Guard is the Hammer of the Emperor, the unnumbered legions of the God-Emperor that keep His realm safe. Marines will bolster the Guard and take on foes that the Guard maybe cannot handle. They will perform surgical strikes. But the bulk of the work falls to the Imperial Guard. And while Marines are enhanced to the point of no longer qualifying as human, Guardsmen, the common soldier of the Imperium, are almost always "normal" humans. Many of them grow up on harsh worlds that make them far tougher than the average person today, but they are not modified, simply enhanced by natural selection.

[13_CBS]

Warp Spider Exarch (another incredibly experienced warrior),

He was an Exarch? Now the poor Warp Spider's death seems even more wasteful. I mean, Exarchs aren't exactly all that common, are they?

[Destro_Yersul]

And you thought marines were only superhuman. (http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/1/)

And I can't be sure the one stabbed by the warp spider exarch is dead. Only one stab isn't likely to kill a space marine, given the organ redundancy and fast clotting, so it's possible he lived. The warp spider was interrupted after all.

[Bryn]

The animation was pretty good in this video, although some shots of the Farseer didn't work particularly well. The lighting and graphics, although damaged by Youtube (is there a better copy of this video somewhere else on the Internet?), were fairly reasonable.

The dialogue was terrible. Obviously, it's not about the dialogue, but in between the cheesy lines (most egregious being "You lost this war before you started, fool!" ... ugh, especially considered that it's coming from an Eldar character) and the bizarre filters applied to all the voices of the characters, it really hurt the video. If the makers completely stripped the video of all dialogue apart from shouts, it would be heaps better :smallamused:

As for the discussion how tough your average Space Marine is... the answer is 'as tough as the plot dictates'. That is the primary consideration of writers, not trying to realisitically depict how well the implants work. In a story featuring the Imperial Guard, the Marines will definitely be extremely tough in comparison to the main characters, but in a story featuring Marines, like this video, it is important that they take casualties in order for the plot to have some tension. A video in which the Eldar attacked the Marines, failed to even slightly injure them, and were then completely slaughtered would not be a very exciting one, would it?

[Matthew]

I think on the whole, I preferred the DoW1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UID6LEzvRRo) trailer, but I far preferred the Mark of Chaos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_KlINBUYc4) trailer.

Of course, I generally prefer my Marines and Warhammer in general to accord with what was presented in the first edition Rogue Trader version of the game.

[Bryn]

I think on the whole, I preferred the DoW1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UID6LEzvRRo) trailer, but I far preferred the Mark of Chaos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_KlINBUYc4) trailer.
Ohhhh yes, the Mark of Chaos trailer is definitely one of the best Warhammer (and 40k) inspired animations made yet. In terms of modelling, texturing, lighting, animation, and heck, even sound design, it is fantastic. I don't know whether or not I'd say I prefer it more or less than the trailer for DoW1, but both are excellent, and I agree in preferring both videos to the one posted here in this thread.

Warhammer Online has received some good videos, too, although not yet as good as either DoW1 or Mark of Chaos.

By the way, does anyone know the animation studio that made the Mark of Chaos video? I know Blur Studio did the video for DoW 1, but I'm pretty sure it was someone else who made the trailer for Mark of Chaos.


Of course, I generally prefer my Marines and Warhammer in general to accord with what was presented in the first edition Rogue Trader version of the game.

Oh, you would, wouldn't you? :smallamused: :smalltongue:

[LordVader]

And you thought marines were only superhuman. (http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/1/)

And I can't be sure the one stabbed by the warp spider exarch is dead. Only one stab isn't likely to kill a space marine, given the organ redundancy and fast clotting, so it's possible he lived. The warp spider was interrupted after all.

I'd seriously doubt it; the Exarch was using powerblades, he was a seasoned veteran who has no doubt fought marines dozens of times, and that was an awful lot of blood that sprayed out.
I'd like to hope the marine was still alive too, but I'm afraid he's dead, Jim.

I like this trailer far more than the DoW 1 trailer simply because marines don't get slaughtered by crappy orcs and pull retarded tactical decisions, so as a Marines player, I enjoy this one more.

[WNxHasoroth]

I'm reminded of a tale of an Inquisitor game.

A Space Marine runs forward, and is hit by an autogun. He is knocked off the gantry and is hanging on by one hand. His Boltgun has dropped down three floors, and the Inquisitor and his two lackeys are approaching.

Taking off his helmet, the brave Astartes tosses it at one henchmen and kills him instantly. Aiming for the other lackey, the Space Marines spits at him, burning through his face.

Hauling himself up, despite the Inquisitor's best attempts with a las pistol, he kills the Inquisitor with his bare hands.

Then again, in the next game, a home ruled Khorne Berzerker was dropped by a Desperado with two Auto-pistols :P

[Matthew]

By the way, does anyone know the animation studio that made the Mark of Chaos video? I know Blur Studio did the video for DoW 1, but I'm pretty sure it was someone else who made the trailer for Mark of Chaos.

Not sure. Looks like it was probably Digic Pictures (www.digicpictures.com).



Oh, you would, wouldn't you? :smallamused: :smalltongue:

I know, I am so unpredictable... :smallbiggrin:

[Destro_Yersul]

I'd seriously doubt it; the Exarch was using powerblades, he was a seasoned veteran who has no doubt fought marines dozens of times, and that was an awful lot of blood that sprayed out.
I'd like to hope the marine was still alive too, but I'm afraid he's dead, Jim.

Someone fetch Brother Leonard the Apothecary! :smallbiggrin:

You're probably right. At least the Xenos was swiftly dealt with.

[LordVader]

Indeed, and in a far more humilitating manner.

Can anyone say boom, headshot?

[13_CBS]

Indeed, and in a far more humilitating manner.

Can anyone say boom, headshot?

What kind of exarch gets caught off guard like that, anyhow? :smallsigh:

[Destro_Yersul]

The kind who was distracted by making sure a 9 foot tall killing machine encased in powered battle armour stayed down?

[LordVader]

What kind of exarch gets caught off guard like that, anyhow? :smallsigh:

He was busy coup de gracing a Space Marine, and got caught off guard by an opponent almost as skilled and certainly stronger, faster, and tougher than he was.

Exarchs are not infallible gods of war, they are simply skilled warriors.

[13_CBS]

He was busy coup de gracing a Space Marine, and got caught off guard by an opponent almost as skilled and certainly stronger, faster, and tougher than he was.

Exarchs are not infallible gods of war, they are simply skilled warriors.

I thought they were supposed to be pinnacles of pinnacles, the elite of the elite.

If Aspect Warriors are the elite of the Eldar military, and the Exarchs are supposed to be even better than they are (well, techically they're only more obsessed...), and a common Space Marine takes one down, well...

I'm surprised a chapter or two of Space Marines didn't just go off and wipe out the rest of the Eldar.

Edit: Well, ok, the Imperium is under siege by stuff other than Eldar too, but still. If this trailer is to be taken as an accurate portrayal of Eldar vs Space Marine combat (which it might not be), then the Eldar just don't seem very powerful.

[LordVader]

*sigh*
1v1, a Space Marine is probably slightly better than an Eldar Aspect Warrior in terms of experience and overall ability. Remember, Aspect Warriors cannot dedicate their whole lives to war, while Marines do.

And an Exarch is probably on the skill level of a veteran Space Marine. You vastly overestimate the abilities of Eldar, I think. Besides, you seem to have an unrealistic view of Eldar Exarchs as unkillable. Even the most veteran soldiers can die, and the Exarch just got surprised. Boop happens. Doubt many Space Marines would survive a headshot at that range.

[SmartAlec]

The Eldar are slippery, that's really the problem. No-one can duck, dodge and weave like the Eldar. Likewise running away and living to fight another day, the Eldar are just plain good at it. Their fleets, despite being made of tinfoil when compared to Imperial cruisers, can just melt away into space. When the Eldar engage in hostilities, their armies usually have an excellent exit strategy in place.

It's only in situations shown by the video - when the Eldar are forced by circumstance to risk everything in the face of planet-wide or galaxy-wide catastrophe - that they stand and fight to the death, and in those circumstances, you have to ask yourself if it's a good idea to mess with them! The Imperial Guard might be near-infinite, but a squad of Space Marines is a valuable resource.

Plus, of course, the Eldar as a race seem to be divided, especially on the issue of Humanity. Half the Eldar might think of Humanity as just another unnecessary lifeform clustering on what were once Eldar worlds; others might grudgingly accept that the Eldar need every tool available to fight the Great Enemy, and Humanity are one of the most numerous and malleable. If the Imperium started attacking Craftworlds, the Eldar race as a whole would soon unite (all Craftworlds have links to the Webway, so it is inevitable that there would be survivors and the other Craftworlds would hear about it) and cause all kinds of hell for Humanity before eventually dying out. As the Craftworlds are scattered across the entire galaxy, attacking them all at once is a logistical impossibility for the Imperium. Not to mention that the Eldar seers would possibly see it coming a mile away, and be ready!

So, I daresay quite a few Inquisitors have figured this out for themselves, and have advised the Lords of Terra not to antagonise the Eldar more than is strictly necessary at this point in time. There are worse threats out there, and every now and again, the Eldar even try to aid the Imperium, when the chips are really down. They may be xenos filth, but their extermination can wait for now.

[LordVader]

Hit the nail on the head perfectly. As the 40k rulebook itself says, "it is better to endure the stings of a single wasp than to provoke the entire swarm."

The Eldar are fast, elusive, and a minor nuisance at best that will aid Imperial forces sometimes, so they are generally left to their own devices.

[13_CBS]

*sigh*
1v1, a Space Marine is probably slightly better than an Eldar Aspect Warrior in terms of experience and overall ability. Remember, Aspect Warriors cannot dedicate their whole lives to war, while Marines do.


Granted, but don't Eldar also live long lives?



Besides, you seem to have an unrealistic view of Eldar Exarchs as unkillable.

No, I do not. I simply find a warrior as experienced and skilled as an Exarch getting killed like the way he did in the trailer to be...most unsatisfying at best.

From wikipedia:

Each Exarch is an ancient hero, whose legend can continue in this manner.

That, and Exarchs are equipped with, from what I've read, some of the best equipment the Eldar have to offer. With all that factored, you'd think an Exarch would do a better job at fighting than managing to take down one Space Marine, take too long in extracting his weapon from his fallen enemy's corpse, then get taken down by a headshot.



Even the most veteran soldiers can die, and the Exarch just got surprised.

Bah, I don't know. I guess the idea of an elite, veteran warrior, from Eldar stock, no less, dying so quickly and cheaply doesn't sit well with me. :smallannoyed:

Edit: Think of it the other way around. Here you have a brave Brother-Captain of a famed Space Marine chapter. He's armed with some of the finest weapons and armour available to his chapter, he's a veteran of a thousand battles, he's killed his share of powerful demons and foul xenos, etc.

Then you see him fighting a pack of Eldar with a handful of brother Space Marines. He takes just a little too long in pulling out his power sword from a Howling Banshee's corpse when, all of a sudden, a shuriken comes out of nowhere and severs his brain stem. Whoops! He's dead.

If you saw that in a trailer, wouldn't you be kind of dissapointed too? Yes, war is random and all that, but still...

[LordVader]

Granted, but don't Eldar also live long lives?
Yes, but only a portion of those lives are dedicated to war, except for Exarchs.


No, I do not. I simply find a warrior as experienced and skilled as an Exarch getting killed like the way he did in the trailer to be...most unsatisfying at best.
Fair enough, I found every Space Marine death in the Dawn of War 1 trailer to be unsatisfying at best.

From wikipedia:


That, and Exarchs are equipped with, from what I've read, some of the best equipment the Eldar have to offer. With all that factored, you'd think an Exarch would do a better job at fighting than managing to take down one Space Marine, take too long in extracting his weapon from his fallen enemy's corpse, then get taken down by a headshot.

He didn't take too long getting his weapon out, it was in there for less than a second. The other Marine just got the drop on him, and bolt shells at that range are instantly fatal.

Bah, I don't know. I guess the idea of an elite, veteran warrior, from Eldar stock, no less, dying so quickly and cheaply doesn't sit well with me. :smallannoyed:
When Eldar do die, they die fast. They're not Marines, their bodies cannot absorb superhuman levels of punishment and their armor is not as tough. So if the Exarch did allow himself to be suprised in the course of killing another enemy, he will be dispatched quickly.

Words in red are mine.

[SmartAlec]

Edit: Think of it the other way around. Here you have a brave Brother-Captain of a famed Space Marine chapter. He's armed with some of the finest weapons and armour available to his chapter, he's a veteran of a thousand battles, he's killed his share of powerful demons and foul xenos, etc.

Then you see him fighting a pack of Eldar with a handful of brother Space Marines. He takes just a little too long in pulling out his power sword from a Howling Banshee's corpse when, all of a sudden, a shuriken comes out of nowhere and severs his brain stem. Whoops! He's dead.

I admit, that sort of thing might fall flat in a trailer, but I've played enough games where this has actually happened to probably be able to shrug it off.

[freerangetroll]

Granted, but don't Eldar also live long lives?

So do space marines if they aren't killed in battle. They don't age like stock humans do. Sadly most of them fall in battle so they don't get to enjoy the expanded lifespan. Those that do make it into their 100s or over still fight like they did when they were thirty.




No, I do not. I simply find a warrior as experienced and skilled as an Exarch getting killed like the way he did in the trailer to be...most unsatisfying at best.

Not really for me. He finished off his current enemy and while standing up was head shotted by a space marine who was a Sgt. if not higher. That isn't your standard mook marine by a longshot.










Edit: Think of it the other way around. Here you have a brave Brother-Captain of a famed Space Marine chapter. He's armed with some of the finest weapons and armour available to his chapter, he's a veteran of a thousand battles, he's killed his share of powerful demons and foul xenos, etc.

Then you see him fighting a pack of Eldar with a handful of brother Space Marines. He takes just a little too long in pulling out his power sword from a Howling Banshee's corpse when, all of a sudden, a shuriken comes out of nowhere and severs his brain stem. Whoops! He's dead.


Happens all the time. War is a quick and dirty business, and there is always somebody out there that is better then you.

[Dallas-Dakota]

But isn't this awesome?:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=f0m28yz6kmg
I think wearing that much armor would just destroy the human body.
Or he shouldn't be able to move.

[SmartAlec]

I think wearing that much armor would just destroy the human body.
Or he shouldn't be able to move.

Just as well they're superhumans, then.

[Eldan]

Well, Exarchs are supposed to be very powerful. Remember, Exarch armor is psychic, storing the personality and experience of every previous wearer and overwriting the new wearers with a gestalt entity of all the previous ones. That's where the "Exarchs and Phoenix kings are immortal" thing comes from.

Talking in game stats, the typical exarch is only about as tough as a normal human, but has armor as strong as a space marines, but lighter, allowing them to move faster. They are also have quicker reflexes and more skilled in ranged and close combat. Their weapons are usually very good, stuff like swords that ignore armor or power fists in close combat or powerful ranged weapons like rocket launchers or cannons. On top of that, they give nice boni to the entire unit.

As for why nobody has wiped them out: they are damn good at hiding. Ask anyone who's ever fought a falcon tank equipped with holofields and soulstones, especially under 5th edition rules. Destroying them is nearly impossible because you miss almost automatically, doing nothing more than shaking the crew. Their larger ships are even better hidden.

[Talkkno]

From Firewarrior's guide to the Galaxy :D
http://forum.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=91088&page=10

"Firewarriors guide:

Eldar are an old race which looks remarkably similar to humans, but don't say that to their face if you want to live. These guys are more arrogant than all water caste social science teachers put together. You know the kind you had during your childhood to teach you on why the Tau will rule the universe eventually. A single one of the Eldar can easily outmatch all of these. And they HATE being compared to humans. Myself I'm hard pressed to tell the difference. At least as long as we're not fighting, then it's easy.

Simple study has led to the conclusion that there are in fact two kinds of Eldar. The first is the most well known. The manipulative bastards with worldships. The second are shadowy raiders.

The manipulative bastards are by far the most arrogant of the lot. Frankly they are the most arrogant beings I've ever seen. They are also the most common insofar that can be applied to Eldar given their rarity.

Before we talk about their real fighting capabilities there is one vital fact you got to know about them: They cheat somewhat fierce.

Thanks to a special variant of the Eldar known as Farseers they can literally see possible futures and plan accordingly. Consequently they rarely engage unless they've foreseen a victory. However it also means that if you manage to surprise them (Hard, but not impossible) they run around like scared clone beasts and die about as easily. Run pointy ears, run hehehe!

While it doesn't always work there are a few good tricks to use against them. The chief of them is to be aware of their ability and act accordingly. If you normally could count on reinforcements change the plan to be without them, they either intend to be in and out before they get there or are preventing them from arriving somehow. Oddly enough they rarely foresee commanders doing that. They see the idea of us actually outguessing them as so foreign that their sheer arrogance might let us outsmart them. The very idea of us achieving much is seen as ludicrous.

I have ordered all my subordinates to shoot me if I ever start acting that arrogant.

Nine out of ten plans against them rely on working with their arrogance. Pretending to flee in face of them has an oddly high success rate too despite the fact that they have to have foreseen that possibility, unless the unit you flee from has a Farseer with them they seem to just forget that we're probably bluffing and just follow as they assume we're cowards in face of their superiority. This when it works is perhaps the most fun way. I got numerous recordings of their faces when they realize too late that it was a ruse and we're about to kill them.

In combat they rely on speed and short range firepower. Hit hard and hit fast. They do however insist on such tall helmets that we can headshot them from much farther away. And even if we don't kill them the heat wash will usually give them severe headaches equal to…. Oh I don't know, the hangover from drinking a freighter packed full with alcohol perhaps. That'll usually take them out of action for a while. Try to keep them at range as they are better in hand to hand, but don't get into shootouts with heavy shooting units unless you got a significant edge in numbers or superior support firepower.

Techwise their arrogance is actually somewhat justified, what they got is far ahead of us. And as a lot of it is warp based we got little chance of replicating it.

However they tend to rely on overly advanced. A lot of their weapons are a lot more advanced than our stuff which relies more on brute force, but as a lot of them have felt personally... Brute force HURTS. Thankfully their arrogance keeps them from realizing that in some respects we actually have better gear.

Have I mentioned that their arrogance if it had mass would have formed several supermassive black holes?

However unlike many listings in this guide it's actually possible to occasionally work with them, but whenever you do you'll want to punch them in the face before it's over. They refuse to talk out straight what is going on preferring riddles and vague statements that you usually need to be familiar with Eldar culture to get. Obviously they want to use this to pretend to be so much smarter. If they had been out straight I'd have been much more impressed. As I'm actually familiar enough with Eldar culture by now I can honestly say it's rarely as impressive as they make it sound when put in clear words.

Standard alliance rules though. They'll stab you in the back the first chance they get, so make sure you stab first.

And if they mention the word stargods make sure you got orbital fire support. You are going to need it. Damn metal skeletons."

[Eldan]

Yes. The guy I mostly play with plays tau. If I don't get harlequins and scorpions in by turn two they shoot me to shreds. Damn S10 weapons and their stupid S5 pulse rifles on standard soldiers...

[Drascin]

Yes. The guy I mostly play with plays tau. If I don't get harlequins and scorpions in by turn two they shoot me to shreds. Damn S10 weapons and their stupid S5 pulse rifles on standard soldiers...

You mean there are Tau armies with the ability to hit something?

[Eldan]

Quantity. Pure Quantity. He has at least 5 S10 weapons, half of them dual-linked. And a few dozen firewarriors.

[chiasaur11]

You mean there are Tau armies with the ability to hit something?

The Greater Good guides our aim.

[SmartAlec]

With enough markerlights, you'll eventually hit anything.

[LordVader]

Edit: Think of it the other way around. Here you have a brave Brother-Captain of a famed Space Marine chapter. He's armed with some of the finest weapons and armour available to his chapter, he's a veteran of a thousand battles, he's killed his share of powerful demons and foul xenos, etc.

Then you see him fighting a pack of Eldar with a handful of brother Space Marines. He takes just a little too long in pulling out his power sword from a Howling Banshee's corpse when, all of a sudden, a shuriken comes out of nowhere and severs his brain stem. Whoops! He's dead.

If you saw that in a trailer, wouldn't you be kind of dissapointed too? Yes, war is random and all that, but still...

Not necessarily, if he died in battle against foes of equal caliber than I would not care.

Also, a Brother Captain is not a good example, more like a Veteran Sergeant. And again, the Exarch didn't take too long with his blades, it was under a second. Furthermore, to continue the example, it'd be as if the Veteran Sergeant sawed through the Banshee and was then decapicated by a trisleke from the Banshee Exarch; a fitting death for a warrior of his caliber. The Warp Spider Exarch was hardly killed by a random Marine bolter shot out of nowhere.

[Decoy Lockbox]

This is more of a 40k than DoW question, but can someone explain to me why anyone would use a falcon instead of a fire prism? They cost the same, have the same upgrade options, but the prism has BS 4 and a better gun. Is the transport capability of the falcon really that important?

Is anyone else here a fan of equipping striking scorpions exarchs with the chainsabres so that they can make 5 attacks, re rolling all "to hit" and wounding dice?

[tyckspoon]

I think the newest edition reduces the need a little bit (since, to the best of my understanding, everybody can run now) but previously, yes, the transport capability was very important. At least, if you ever wanted a squad of Scorpions or Fire Dragons to make contact with the enemy. Especially the Scorpions, since their heavier armor meant they couldn't use Fleet of Foot.

[Drascin]

The Greater Good guides our aim.

Then ask the Greater Good to illuminate my firewarriors, because I have a reputation for about two hits every twenty-something shots or so, to the point my army is already joked to be from the Tau colony of My'Opia by the other players.

Bitter? Who, me? Naaaahhh...

[Bryn]

It's funny that the two shootiest armies, Guard and Tau, also have the lowest Ballistic Skills of anyone bar Orks. Still, Guard have numbers, and Tau have markerlights, so they get a fair few hits all the same :smallamused:

[LordVader]

This is more of a 40k than DoW question, but can someone explain to me why anyone would use a falcon instead of a fire prism? They cost the same, have the same upgrade options, but the prism has BS 4 and a better gun. Is the transport capability of the falcon really that important?

Is anyone else here a fan of equipping striking scorpions exarchs with the chainsabres so that they can make 5 attacks, re rolling all "to hit" and wounding dice?

Very simple. A Falcon with Holofields is nigh-indestructible, and can scoot over the battlefield to dump a small, elite squad of assault troops right on top of your gunline.

As for your Tau troubles, you needz more Battlesuits. Also, remember, Markerlights can remove the cover save given for shooting through units.

[13_CBS]

Also, a Brother Captain is not a good example, more like a Veteran Sergeant.

Hmm...just out of curiosity, what Eldar warrior would be the equivalent of a Brother Captain? A Phoenix Lord?

[Eldan]

I'd rather say an Autarch. The Phoenix lords are unique characters.

[LordVader]

Hmm...just out of curiosity, what Eldar warrior would be the equivalent of a Brother Captain? A Phoenix Lord?

Autarch/Farseer.

[WNxHasoroth]

Did we forget that this was supposed to be a RTS Trailer somewhere along the line?

:smalltongue:

[Destro_Yersul]

Yeah. You want to equal a Pheonix Lord, you need someone like CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!

Or Marneus Calgar or something. Cain is cooler anyways. Blasted Ultrasmurfs...

[Decoy Lockbox]

Very simple. A Falcon with Holofields is nigh-indestructible, and can scoot over the battlefield to dump a small, elite squad of assault troops right on top of your gunline.


Makes sense. Most of the games I have played eldar in have been high-point affairs, so I just run wave serpents for transport and prisms for blasting. Wiping entire squads of terminators post-deep strike with a single shot of prism cannon gives me a warm and tingly feeling.

[LordVader]

Did we forget that this was supposed to be a RTS Trailer somewhere along the line?

:smalltongue:

Hey, it's 40k, you can't discuss the videogame without spilling over into the TT. :smalltongue:

Anyways, Dawn of War looks freaking sweet.

[Sam]

The trailers are always off from the fluff. I mean, if you see the opening there is an eldar warrior hiding in the grass! Not to mention that there were previous Space Marines who are littered on the ground.

Anyway, I like the "meet the tyrannid" video better.
http://pc.ign.com/dor/objects/14243516/warhammer-40000-dawn-of-war-ii/videos/dow2_meet_the_tyranids_082008.html
If you haven't seen it, take a look.

I personally like the Imperial guard. Remember, they don't have billions of troopers, they have billions of billions- it can be interpreted as 10^9 OR 10^9 multiplied by 10^9.

Yes, it is alot.

[Bryn]

In t'other DoW II thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87984) (the most recent one, that is, we've had a few) we discuss, on pages four and five, whether or not Guard or Space Marines would better feature as the main campaign. And, speaking of t'other DoW II thread, that's probably the best place to discuss DoW II.

So, returning on-topic... who else thinks the Lictor, at the end of the video, should have crushed the Space Marine instead of doing some rather pointless roaring, posturing, and generally un-stealthy-Lictor sorts of things? Sure, it robs it of its dramatic finish, with the Space Marine running towards the Lictor, but it does give some good old 40k bleakness with every single character ending up dead. In addition, it would set up Tyranids as somewhat more dangerous antagonists to the uninitiated RTS playing audience.

[LordVader]

The trailers are always off from the fluff. I mean, if you see the opening there is an eldar warrior hiding in the grass! Not to mention that there were previous Space Marines who are littered on the ground.

Anyway, I like the "meet the tyrannid" video better.
http://pc.ign.com/dor/objects/14243516/warhammer-40000-dawn-of-war-ii/videos/dow2_meet_the_tyranids_082008.html
If you haven't seen it, take a look.

I personally like the Imperial guard. Remember, they don't have billions of troopers, they have billions of billions- it can be interpreted as 10^9 OR 10^9 multiplied by 10^9.

Yes, it is alot.

Billions? What is that, some kind of crappy sector army? :smalltongue:
Trillions, more like. ^^

@Z-Axis-Personally, as a rine fan I liked this ending better (even though the sergeant is royally boned anyways). Just builds the tension more, makes the race of the campaign more awesome, and I expect we'll see more than one cutscene of Tyranids going "DELICIOUS MARINE NOM NOM NOM." Better that they do it with something really unstoppable, like a Carnifex, than with a Lictor. That way it's even cooler.

[Sam]

They always go with tension bulding. Notice how the units arrive in nice designated order?

There are only two times I can think of that happening- reserves and area of effect weapons. Neither apply. At least it wasn't as egregious in the trailer for DOW 1.

Sorry- someone previously said billions and I wanted to correct them. After looking at... well, see bottom, I realized that galactic civilizations have an unbelievable amount of manpower.

If the Imperium has 10 billion a system and a million system and recruits one in one hundred... that would be a trillion. Right? 10^9 times 10^6 divided by 10^-3?

Of course, the have higher recruitment rates and more system and more people per system... at which point you realize what galactic civilization really means. At which point their focus on attrition, century long planning, and other policies make alot more sense.

[kamikasei]

If the Imperium has 10 billion a system and a million system and recruits one in one hundred... that would be a trillion. Right? 10^9 times 10^6 divided by 10^-3?

Ten billion is 10^10. Also, dividing by 100 is dividing by 10^2 or multiplying by 10^-2, not dividing by 10^-2 (or -3). So, a recruitment rate of 1% gives you one hundred trillion.

[LordVader]

The Imperium's got a lot of people.
For example, on Warseer, maybe the biggest Warhammer forum, I believe it was calculated that the Imperium's got something in the order of...quintillions, I think it was?

It really is crazy. :smalleek:

[SolkaTruesilver]

Bah. that's the same amount of people Trantor was managing by itself!! Not that impressive... :smallwink:

EDIT: Except if you aren't American. Then, a quintillons becomes impressive indeed. Actually, even a trillions is mightily impressive to non-americans.

[LordVader]

Trantor? Do you refer to the Foundation Empire here, or is this something else?

[SolkaTruesilver]

No no, it's exactly that. The Foundation Empire was, too, made of a Quintillons peoples. But American Quintillon, off course. The other kind would begin to be quite.. hum.. exagerated...

[Destro_Yersul]

Considering Warhammer is British, guess which one we're talking about here...

[Sam]

How many people can you jam on one planet? If I remember correctly, someone calculated that Coruscant (Star Wars) has way more than the stated trillion and runs into a couple hundred trillion- I could try to dredge up or duplicate their calcs. Of course, Monaco density times Earth surface area gives you... 8.5 trillion.

40K has Terra and hive worlds, but doesn't have some of the tech that wars has to pull it off- can they put that many people on a world? I know that Terra (bar the Imperial Palace) is supposed to be like that, but how do they deal with heat, food, oxygen, etc?

Also, is it just me or did Asimov suck at the hard sciences? He screws up population size, genetics and scale repeatedly. How do you explain a city planet with only 45 billion people?

If the world has 510 million sq km and the EU gets 112 per km you end up with 57 billion. Apparently the EU is denser than Trantor!

Sorry for the tangent, but how did the "New Foundation" series deal with it?

[turkishproverb]

Also, is it just me or did Asimov suck at the hard sciences? He screws up population size, genetics and scale repeatedly. How do you explain a city planet with only 45 billion people?

If the world has 510 million sq km and the EU gets 112 per km you end up with 57 billion. Apparently the EU is denser than Trantor!

Sorry for the tangent, but how did the "New Foundation" series deal with it?

Population control?

Seriously, be careful about questioning asimov's intelligence. He's one of the few fiction authors to be told to shut up about a type of science within his fiction because it was too close to the right math of what they were experimenting with.

[Sam]

Fair enough. However, Asimov didn't understand biology- reading his description of genetics in Foward the Foundation is cringe inducing. To be fair, he was born before they discovered the double helix.

As for the population, it wasn't population control. Terminous went from 50,000 people to a millions in less than 450 years. And the starter population was scientists! I think Asimov couldn't grasp how many people you could jam on the planet (Green Revolution screwed with his estimates). In the Inevitable conflict, the world has 3 billion people and the Caves of Steel has about 6 billion, with New York being a huge acropolis with 8 million and the whole area being one continuous dome. New York currently has 8 million now for comparison and shows no sign of needing to become an acropolis for efficiency.

Asimov understood alot of science, but these were definately his weak points. Most of the science books he wrote are still good- except the astronomy because the scientists keep changing their minds.

[UncleWolf]

As said, the Eldar females were using power swords, essentially lightsabers. So they can cut Marine armor easily, but there's no way she killed the Marine.

They are called eldar Banshees

[LordVader]

I know, but as the poster I was responding to didn't seem to really know 40k fluff, I called them eldar females because they are easily identifiable as such; he may not know what Howling Banshees are. :smallsmile: