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RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-20, 01:14 PM
Hey playgrounders,

What's every ones opinion on the Spell thief I don't really see it in any builds or what not?

If it sucks Why? If it doesn't any one have any cool builds?

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-20, 01:28 PM
I've never used it, but people have mentioned that it's special abilities aren't that useful due to the situations where you can steal spells not coming up that often. Admittedly, "stealing" spells from allies could be useful if you want to put a lot of spells out at the start of a battle.

Eldariel
2008-08-20, 01:32 PM
Spellthief is basically good with a straight Arcane progression and the "Master Spellthief"-feat. Otherwise it's just way too limiting to be good.

RTGoodman
2008-08-20, 01:39 PM
Yeah, I think Eldariel hit the nail on the head - every time I've heard of someone doing a Spellthief build, it involves the Master Spellthief feat.

Fax_Celestis used to be a big proponent of Spellthieves around here and did a lot with them in builds and I think probably homebrew material, but I don't think I've seen him around in months. You can do a search (here or on Google using site:giantitp.com as part of the search) and probably find some of his stuff.

JMobius
2008-08-20, 01:55 PM
I'm playing a game with one in the party right now. I think they're a very cool idea, but AFAIK they require more or less full 20 progression to really get much out of the class. I'm not familiar with any 'master spellthief' feat though.

RTGoodman
2008-08-20, 02:01 PM
Basically, the Master Spellthief (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Master_Spellthief,CS) feat (from Complete Scoundrel) lets you take a level of Spellthief and then just take some other full arcane casting class. Your levels in both classes stack to determine what level spells you can steal and your caster level for spells both cast and stolen, and you can cast all arcane spells in light armor.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-20, 02:07 PM
It is an interesting class but primarily steals spells from spellcasters (Possibly fun in a Magocracy style campaign where spellcasters are common). A single dip and the Master Spell Thief feat grants a spellcaster most of the class benefits in regards to spell theft.

I like the idea of the fifth level ability for stealing Wishes from CG Noble Djinni or LE Effreeti. [(Using Planar Ally to summon them) (Didn't see a sidenote where the creature forgot someone stole it's ability so lots of potential for a DM/GM with an upset outsider capable of casting Wishes through a third party. Consider the potential of having Two Wishes for revenge in return for granting a Third Wish to a Nongenie)] and doing it occassionally making the PCs miserable.:smallcool:

I have been tweaking the class as a Variant Psychic Spell Thief similar to the Psychic Rogue which is kind of interesting. The basic mechanical cost is 3 feats (Loss of +3D6 Sneak Attack) and 2 skill points over 20 levels with a slight delay in special progression.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-20, 02:16 PM
It is an interesting class but primarily steals spells from spellcasters (Possibly fun in a Magocracy style campaign where spellcasters are common). A single dip and the Master Spell Thief feat grants a spellcaster most of the class benefits in regards to spell theft.

I like the idea of the fifth level ability for stealing Wishes from CG Noble Djinni or LE Effreeti. [(Using Planar Ally to summon them) (Didn't see a sidenote where the creature forgot someone stole it's ability so lots of potential for a DM/GM with an upset outsider capable of casting Wishes through a third party. Consider the potential of having Two Wishes for revenge in return for granting a Third Wish to a Nongenie)] and doing it occassionally making the PCs miserable.:smallcool:

I have been tweaking the class as a Variant Psychic Spell Thief similar to the Psychic Rogue which is kind of interesting. The basic mechanical cost is 3 feats (Loss of +3D6 Sneak Attack) and 2 skill points over 20 levels with a slight delay in special progression.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b

you do know about the psythief feet right? think its from complete scoundrel?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-20, 02:37 PM
Yes thank you. Probably can build a better psionic thief with a psion or erudite but looking for something in between.

Chronos
2008-08-20, 02:38 PM
Spellthief is basically good with a straight Arcane progression and the "Master Spellthief"-feat. Otherwise it's just way too limiting to be good.Yes and no... There are two limits involved, and Master Spellthief only eliminates one. A normal, straight Spellthief can steal spells up to half his level, and can store up to his level in stolen spell levels for later use. Master Spellthief lets your levels stack for purposes of what you can steal, but it does not stack how much you can store.

Thus, for instance, a level 18 pure spellthief could hit a high-level spellcaster a couple of times and steal two 9th-level spells, and then later cast those spells he had stolen. A spellthief 1/wizard 17 could hit a high-level spellcaster and take away one of the spellcaster's 9th-level spells, but he could not store it for later use, since he can only store one level of spells. He could steal and then use a single first-level spell, or a pair of cantrips, but that's it.

So if your goal is just to deprive your enemy of spell slots, a one-level dip with the feat is plenty. But if you want to use your enemy's spells against them, or fire off more of your allies' spells in the first round, you'll probably want more levels of spellthief.

TeeEl
2008-08-20, 02:41 PM
In general it's a cool class, moderately useful, but suffers heavily from lack of support; there's really not much you can do with it but go pure spellthief (Master Spellthief opens up some possibilities, but most of its uses are either sub-optimal or else really cheesy exploits). A good houserule might be to allow "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" PrC levels to count as additional spellthief class levels for determining the effects of the spellthief's existing abilities, although this might create some no-brainer PrC situations.


A single dip and the Master Spell Thief feat grants a spellcaster most of the class benefits in regards to spell theft.

Not exactly. A spellthief's capacity for holding stolen spells is based on class level and Master Spellthief doesn't change that, so you're still limited to stealing a single 1st level spell at a time. You still need at least 2 levels of Spellthief in order to hold the higher level spells that Master Spellthief allows you to steal.


I like the idea of the fifth level ability for stealing Wishes from CG Noble Djinni or LE Effreeti.

Stealing spell-like abilities is keyed off of spellthief levels, too; you can only steal an SLA that has a spell level equal to 1/3 your spellthief level or less. You'd have to be level 27 to be able to do this.

AKA_Bait
2008-08-20, 02:51 PM
Fax_Celestis used to be a big proponent of Spellthieves around here and did a lot with them in builds and I think probably homebrew material, but I don't think I've seen him around in months. You can do a search (here or on Google using site:giantitp.com as part of the search) and probably find some of his stuff.

Fax Guide to Spell Thieves. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44299)

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-20, 04:30 PM
Not exactly. A spellthief's capacity for holding stolen spells is based on class level and Master Spellthief doesn't change that, so you're still limited to stealing a single 1st level spell at a time. You still need at least 2 levels of Spellthief in order to hold the higher level spells that Master Spellthief allows you to steal.

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Master_Spellthief,CS
For example, a 4th-level spellthief/4th-level wizard could steal spells of up to 4th level, as if he were an 8th-level spellthief



Stealing spell-like abilities is keyed off of spellthief levels, too; you can only steal an SLA that has a spell level equal to 1/3 your spellthief level or less. You'd have to be level 27 to be able to do this.

Perhaps I could have posted a little more concisely. You pick up the class special ability at L5 when you are able to achieve a CL27+ ability in game you can steal Wishes long before needing to be L27 or greater.:wink:

TeeEl
2008-08-20, 07:24 PM
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Master_Spellthief,CS
For example, a 4th-level spellthief/4th-level wizard could steal spells of up to 4th level, as if he were an 8th-level spellthief

Yes. And as a 4th level spellthief, he can only store a total of 4 spell levels' worth of spells; that is, he can store a single 4th level spell, or two 2nd level spells, etc. Master Spellthief does not change this, since it only specifies that it counts towards the maximum spell level he can steal. A 4th-level spellthief/6th-level wizard could target spells of up to 5th level, but would still only have a capacity for 4 levels' worth of spells, so he'd immediately lose any 5th level spell he stole.


Perhaps I could have posted a little more concisely. You pick up the class special ability at L5 when you are able to achieve a CL27+ ability in game you can steal Wishes long before needing to be L27 or greater.:wink:

I don't see what you're getting at here. At level 5, you can only steal 1st level SLAs (maybe 2nd level SLAs if your DM is generous with rounding). Wish is not a 1st level spell. You still have to be a 27th level spellthief to steal Wish from creatures with Wish as an SLA. Caster level does not even enter the equation for the spellthief's ability to steal SLAs.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-20, 09:36 PM
Yes. And as a 4th level spellthief, he can only store a total of 4 spell levels' worth of spells; that is, he can store a single 4th level spell, or two 2nd level spells, etc. Master Spellthief does not change this, since it only specifies that it counts towards the maximum spell level he can steal. A 4th-level spellthief/6th-level wizard could target spells of up to 5th level, but would still only have a capacity for 4 levels' worth of spells, so he'd immediately lose any 5th level spell he stole.


I disagree that is not the only correct way to interpret how the Master Spellthief feat works.

Acknowledge you were right regarding needing a L27 character for stealing Wishes from Djinni.

Gaiwecoor
2008-08-20, 09:41 PM
Yes and no... There are two limits involved, and Master Spellthief only eliminates one. A normal, straight Spellthief can steal spells up to half his level, and can store up to his level in stolen spell levels for later use. Master Spellthief lets your levels stack for purposes of what you can steal, but it does not stack how much you can store.

To be totally honest, this is an argument that I have never understood. True, the feat never specifically mentions storing spells. However, the entire class feature (including storage) is called Steal Spell. As far as I can tell, by advancing the Steal Spell progression, it likewise advances spell storage.

If there were two class features (Steal Spell and Spell Storing), I could understand why everybody says that, but ...

Is this really an unreasonable interpretation of the feat?

The Demented One
2008-08-20, 09:42 PM
I disagree that is not the only correct way to interpret how the Master Spellthief feat works.
Master Spellthief is pretty clear on spelling out what it lets you stack levels for:



Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal. For example, a 4th-level spellthief/4th-level wizard could steal spells of up to 4th level, as if he were an 8th-level spellthief.
Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells. The character described above would have a caster level of 8th for both his spellthief spells and his wizard spells.
In addition, you do not incur a chance of arcane spell failure for arcane spells cast or stolen from other classes, but only if you are wearing light armor. You incur the normal arcane spell failure chance when wearing medium or heavy armor or when using a shield.

It would be a reasonable enough houserule, depending on the DM, but RAW, Master Spellthief does not work that way.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-20, 09:48 PM
It can't be that clear if we are disagreeing over it.:smallsmile:

Master Spellthief
Type: General
Source: Complete Scoundrel

Your arcane studies allow you to mingle arcane magic of different flavors for great effect.

Prerequisite: Ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells, steal spell.
Benefit: Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal. For example, a 4th-level spellthief/4th-level wizard could steal spells of up to 4th level, as if he were an 8th-level spellthief.
Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells. The character described above would have a caster level of 8th for both his spellthief spells and his wizard spells.
In addition, you do not incur a chance of arcane spell failure for arcane spells cast or stolen from other classes, but only if you are wearing light armor. You incur the normal arcane spell failure chance when wearing medium or heavy armor or when using a shield.
Special: A spellthief does not incur a chance of arcane spell failure when casting spellthief spells in light armor. He incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for other arcane spells he casts, including those stolen from arcane casters.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-20, 10:02 PM
It can't be that clear if we are disagreeing over it.:smallsmile:

Master Spellthief
Type: General
Source: Complete Scoundrel

Your arcane studies allow you to mingle arcane magic of different flavors for great effect.

Prerequisite: Ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells, steal spell.
Benefit: Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal. For example, a 4th-level spellthief/4th-level wizard could steal spells of up to 4th level, as if he were an 8th-level spellthief.
Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells. The character described above would have a caster level of 8th for both his spellthief spells and his wizard spells.
In addition, you do not incur a chance of arcane spell failure for arcane spells cast or stolen from other classes, but only if you are wearing light armor. You incur the normal arcane spell failure chance when wearing medium or heavy armor or when using a shield.
Special: A spellthief does not incur a chance of arcane spell failure when casting spellthief spells in light armor. He incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for other arcane spells he casts, including those stolen from arcane casters.

im gonna have to agree with your interpitation..

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-20, 10:07 PM
im gonna have to agree with your interpitation..

Thank you. :smile:

Chronos
2008-08-20, 11:42 PM
To be totally honest, this is an argument that I have never understood. True, the feat never specifically mentions storing spells. However, the entire class feature (including storage) is called Steal Spell. As far as I can tell, by advancing the Steal Spell progression, it likewise advances spell storage.Except the feat doesn't say that it advances your Steal Spell class feature. It just talks about one of the aspects of that class feature.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-21, 01:47 AM
Except the feat doesn't say that it advances your Steal Spell class feature. It just talks about one of the aspects of that class feature.

Flip side is it doesn't say it does not advance part of your steal spell class features which it should clearly address if that is the case.

TeeEl
2008-08-21, 02:10 AM
Flip side is it doesn't say it does not advance part of your steal spell class features which it should clearly address if that is the case.

Flip side of the flip side is that it doesn't say it does advance any other part of your steal spell class feature which it should definitely address if that is the case. :smallbiggrin:

It doesn't say that it doesn't let you stack other caster levels towards your spellthief sneak attack progression, either. For that matter, it doesn't say that it doesn't let you use Miracle at will as a spell-like ability, nor does it say that it doesn't give you a permanencied Shapechange effect. But the things that it doesn't say it doesn't do don't matter; it still only does the things it does say it does do, unless you houserule it otherwise. And it only says it stacks for determining the maximum spell level you can steal (and caster levels).

You're still correct that it should specify one way or the other. Clarity is good. But it's not all that ambiguous to begin with. It's fairly clear what they did write; the only question is if they had actually intended to write something different instead.

Gaiwecoor
2008-08-21, 02:33 AM
Well, we seem to be having different opinions, then. :smallwink:

Anyhow - back to the main point, Spellthief might not be the most powerful class out there, but it can be fun. I remember running a short adventure where one of the PCs stole the BBEG Warlock's eldritch blast. Yes. That was ... frustrating.

Also, if you're into this kind of character, Spellthief can take Daggerspell Mage at level 6, rather than having to wait until level 7 like most class combinations.

People complain that there's not much for them to do if they're not stealing spells. They have plenty to do. Sure, their sneak attack isn't as advanced as a rogue's, but otherwise, they're pretty close to the same thing. Also: when was the last time you had a really interesting battle where none of the opposing participants had any spells, spell-like abilities or spell effects in place?

Person_Man
2008-08-21, 09:37 AM
IMO opinion, the best way to play a Spell Thief is to be Peter Petrelli (first season). Party with a Warlock, Dragonfire Adept, and various casters. Borrow their spells and spell like abilities. Buff yourself using all of their best stuff. (Of course, that requires a party of people who will let you).

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-21, 09:44 AM
Flip side of the flip side is that it doesn't say it does advance any other part of your steal spell class feature which it should definitely address if that is the case. :smallbiggrin:

You're still correct that it should specify one way or the other. Clarity is good. But it's not all that ambiguous to begin with. It's fairly clear what they did write; the only question is if they had actually intended to write something different instead.

Agree with Gaiwecoor that it is a single class special ability with multiple modes. Also agree it is poorly worded and uses a bad example. Agree to disagree on this issue. :smallsmile:

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-21, 09:52 AM
Yaaa for resolution!!