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pasko77
2008-08-20, 02:08 PM
By 3.5 edition rules, do Heroism, Bardic Song (possibly both inspire courage and inspire greatness), Good Hope, Bull's Strenght, Cat's Grace and Haste stack?
If not, what is the maximum effect i can reach?

Similarly, how do song of despair and the spell crushing despair work together?

Thanks for the attention, Pasko

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-20, 02:17 PM
Penalties have no type, so they stack. (No clue what song of despair is, or where it's from.)

Bonus stacking is limited by type, not by total bonus - there's no theoretical "maximum you can reach" (there's a practical maximum, but that's practically impossible to calculate, especially without knowing what sources are available). Untyped bonuses, and dodge bonuses to AC, stack without limit. (But bonuses from the same source/effect don't stack - so you can't cast haste on someone twice.)

You could maybe have looked up this stuff yourself, but here goes... (maybe you're lazy or illiterate or don't know about the SRD?)

Inspire Courage: morale bonus to certain saves, attack, damage
Inspire Greatness: bonus HD, competence bonus to attacks, Fortitude saves
Heroism: morale bonus to attacks, saves, skill checks
Haste: untyped bonus to attack, dodge bonus to AC
Good Hope: morale bonus to saves, attacks, ability checks, skill checks, damage
Cat's Grace: enhancement bonus to Dex
Bull's Strength: enhancement bonus to Str

Heroism, inspire courage, and good hope overlap partially. Good hope basically entirely overlaps heroism, but inspire courage may grant a higher bonus to attack, damage, and certain saves, which would override good hope (or heroism) for those only.

None of the others overlap with any of each other.

Glimbur
2008-08-20, 02:21 PM
By 3.5 edition rules, do Heroism, Bardic Song (possibly both inspire courage and inspire greatness), Good Hope, Bull's Strenght, Cat's Grace and Haste stack?
If not, what is the maximum effect i can reach?

Similarly, how do song of despair and the spell crushing despair work together?

Thanks for the attention, Pasko

IIRC Heroism, Bard Song and Good Hope are morale bonuses so you just take the best. Bull's Strength is an enhancement to your Str, Cat's Grace is enhancement to Dex, and Haste is wonky, so those will all stack. Inspire Greatness is competence bonuses.

Good Hope gives you ability checks and weapon damage over Heroism. Heroism lasts 10x longer but is single target while Good Hope is 1 per level. I'd go with Good Hope unless your bard is at least level 14 so you can inspire courage for +3. Inspire Greatness is for fewer folks than Inspire Courage but does give bonus hit dice, so if that's a factor use that. It also adds to fort save and is competence to attack rolls.

Summary: Use Good Hope and Inspire Greatness and Haste to get one person best buffed, use Good Hope, Inspire Courage to buff many, use Heroism and Inspire Greatness for a longer lasting buff on one person. Haste is always nice.

I don't have the books for Song of Despair on hand, but Crushing Despair is untyped so they will stack.

Frosty
2008-08-20, 02:21 PM
Penalties usually don't stack, at least with ability penalties. Fore xample, Ray of Enfeeblement twice would overlap.

fractic
2008-08-20, 02:23 PM
Penalties usually don't stack, at least with ability penalties.

No that's wrong, penalties normally stack



Fore xample, Ray of Enfeeblement twice would overlap.

Except when they are from the same source

Douglas
2008-08-20, 02:23 PM
It all comes down to bonus types and what the bonuses apply to. Any two bonuses of the same type to the same thing do not stack. Any two bonuses of different types or to different things do stack.

Heroism, Inspire Courage, and Good Hope all give morale bonuses. For any given statistic modified by these abilities, only the best bonus applies.

Inspire Greatness gives competence bonuses, which none of the other effects listed do. It stacks fully.

Bull's Strength and Cat's Grace both give enhancement bonuses, but to different ability scores. They stack.

Haste gives untyped and dodge bonuses, both of which stack with everything, even other untyped and dodge bonuses.

So, take the best of Heroism, Inspire Courage, and Good Hope, then add all the rest.

The rules for bonus types and stacking can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking).

pasko77
2008-08-20, 02:39 PM
It all comes down to bonus types and what the bonuses apply to. Any two bonuses of the same type to the same thing do not stack. Any two bonuses of different types or to different things do stack.

Heroism, Inspire Courage, and Good Hope all give morale bonuses. For any given statistic modified by these abilities, only the best bonus applies.

Inspire Greatness gives competence bonuses, which none of the other effects listed do. It stacks fully.

Bull's Strength and Cat's Grace both give enhancement bonuses, but to different ability scores. They stack.

Haste gives untyped and dodge bonuses, both of which stack with everything, even other untyped and dodge bonuses.

So, take the best of Heroism, Inspire Courage, and Good Hope, then add all the rest.

The rules for bonus types and stacking can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking).

Thanks.

So, basically, good hope and heroism are almost useless, since i have way more bardic songs than spells.

Douglas
2008-08-20, 02:45 PM
For attack and damage bonuses, pretty much. Inspire Courage doesn't improve saves (except vs charm or fear) or skill checks, though, so Heroism and Good Hope are still good for those.

Vexxation
2008-08-20, 02:55 PM
Penalties usually don't stack, at least with ability penalties. Fore xample, Ray of Enfeeblement twice would overlap.

Eh, Ability Penalties can stack.

Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Shivering Touch.

There, you now have reduced most enemies into a quivering pile of goo-like foe who can barely swing a weapon, let alone hit.

Even without Shivering Touch, at CL 5 when you get Ray of Exhaustion, you're looking at -6 to Dex (Aka, "-3 to AC") and -9 to -14 to Strength.
With Shivering Touch, just Coup de Grace the poor thing.