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Charity
2008-08-21, 07:12 AM
This poster has posted in the simple Q&A thread, this post


Q158

I´ve just did my first session in version 4.0 as DM. I did a couple of combats also out of character, just for practising. Now is the problem that my party of 3 people (the other 3 were absent) can beat an encounter of 600XP (that is enough for a party of 6 people on level 1)

Or I do somthing wrong with is most thinkable since a huge amount of players playtested V4.0 or the book is wrong.

What i did: i threw a goblin encounter on them which included:
1 goblin hexer 150
1 goblin underboss 350
1 goblin warrior 100
2 goblin cutter 50
-----------------650

also some other encounters with a hexer, 2 warriors, skullcleaver and cutters, But they beated them with less problem..it was a little chalange: say, the tank was reduced to 2 HP and the other was bloodied and the caster still on full HP. But still it is an encounter 2 times to much XP for a 3-man-party.

What can I do to make the combat more difficult? ihad the thought of throwing more controlers and maybe some caster-hate in battle. But i would realy much like to hear your opinion!!

Thanx alot,
Cil

Edit: The combat was further normal, i am sure I used all powers correctly and used everything those goblins could give.

I believe this disscussion will require more than a simple answer so i have opened this thread for the debate.
Please do not post anything other than advise to improve his 4e game... thanks.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-21, 07:21 AM
Start by re-reading pages 56 and 57, and then expand to the chapter.

6 for 3 PCs is a level 5 encounter. That's beatable but dangerous, on the very upper limits of PC capability.

In our first test run, my two players, with three level 1 PCs (fighter, ranger, warlord), beat a similar but slightly easier encounter (hexer, skullcleaver, blackblade, 8 cutters; I say easier despite approximately equal XP values because the underboss is a bad mutha). The warlord was dropped first, and the fighter bled out before the hexer was killed by the ranger.

postus interruptus, more later.

Charity
2008-08-21, 07:38 AM
1 goblin hexer 150
1 goblin underboss 350
1 goblin warrior 100
2 goblin cutter 50
-----------------650
Should give a party of three a fair run for their money.
What was the party make up out of interest, and was there any extenuating circumstances such as narrow passages or other mobility issues for the goblins. Were the party exceptionally lucky?

OK to get a good idea how things stand can I request you post the 3 characters vital statistics and we'll go from there.

TricksyAndFalse
2008-08-21, 07:41 AM
Terrain is important to the balance of an encounter. I believe (books not at work with me) that the Hexer benefits from some cover to hide behind, and the warrior and underboss benefit from obstacles like walls to help keep the PCs away from the hexer.

The DMG has more to say on what terrain best helps which opponent roles.

Cilvyn
2008-08-21, 08:26 AM
uh pff..

the chars:
- Level 1 infernalpact warlock
- Level 1 Paladin
- Level 1 rogue

I didnt do anything with terrain.. maybe that's indeed an important element in combat. and makes the combat more interesting ofcors. I also read the pages 56/57 and further again.. it halps a bit since i undestand more of the book now. ( first time was just reading and 70% understanding:smallannoyed:)
I will look up some terain details wich i can use. I will post the next combat and maybe you can help me make it balanced? So i get some advise and i kan use the experience for new encounters

Thanx for sofar yet!

Cilvyn

AKA_Bait
2008-08-21, 08:34 AM
Two things to consider:

What powers did the PC's use? In 4e, daily and encounter powers are signifigantly more powerful than the at-wills. If the PC's were burning their dailys on these battles then they will be easier than expected by virtue of their having used the powers. Same thing goes for their action points. If you allowed them a full rest (i.e. recharge of their action point and daily powers) after each battle, then the difficulty of each will be greatly reduced.

Someone mentioned terrain, another thing to consider is basic tactics. Did the monsters fight in tactically sensible ways? Remeber that the monster roles are to guide how each type of critter is supposed to behave in the combat. If you didn't use them as they are intended (had the hexer in the middle of melee for example, they will be much less effective.

Charity
2008-08-21, 08:38 AM
OK strikers and defenders don't like numbers, more smaller goblins will hurt them, don't be afraid to chuck 8-10 cutters at them with a couple of ranged goblins on an inaccesible ledge targeting the warlock first would give them more to worry about.

Cilvyn
2008-08-21, 08:40 AM
The next encounter is in an open place in the forest. it has rained that day and the ground is muddy (difficult terain)
Creatures:
1 Mad wraight (lvl 5 Controler)
1 doppelganger (lvl 3 Lurker also quest boss)
2/3 Spectre (level 4 lurker)
X Zombie rotter (lvl 3 minion)

Maybe i can use a fallen tree to for some chalanging terain (moderate DC=20)

The doppelganger will not really attack but will be polymorphed when the PC's are close so they wil recognize him as a villager boy who is attacked by the wraight and specters.

The quest/story around it is that the mere's daughter is lost. in fact the doppelganger who is an agent of Vecna ( see my other threat:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87931 but doens't matter for this one) Murdered her as he faked to be her lover, and the doopelganger will switch the place of the girl to gain knowledge or some item i dont know yet.. If you have some ideas for it, that is very welcome to:)

But the combat has priority 1 !

Cilvyn

Cilvyn
2008-08-21, 08:43 AM
Two things to consider:

What powers did the PC's use? In 4e, daily and encounter powers are signifigantly more powerful than the at-wills. If the PC's were burning their dailys on these battles then they will be easier than expected by virtue of their having used the powers. Same thing goes for their action points. If you allowed them a full rest (i.e. recharge of their action point and daily powers) after each battle, then the difficulty of each will be greatly reduced.

Someone mentioned terrain, another thing to consider is basic tactics. Did the monsters fight in tactically sensible ways? Remeber that the monster roles are to guide how each type of critter is supposed to behave in the combat. If you didn't use them as they are intended (had the hexer in the middle of melee for example, they will be much less effective.

They indeed used their daylies and action points for the combat. But I carfully studied the role of each monster so the hexer wasnt in close combat. but That indeed is something i have to realize.

bosssmiley
2008-08-21, 09:00 AM
OK strikers and defenders don't like numbers, more smaller goblins will hurt them, don't be afraid to chuck 8-10 cutters at them with a couple of ranged goblins on an inaccessible ledge targeting the warlock first would give them more to worry about.

As Charity said above. You might want to drop one of the expensive Goblins in favour of half-a-dozen javelin-chucking or arrow-firing cheapo minions. That would multiply the threat potential of the swarming little beasts without over-powering the PCs outright.

Charity
2008-08-21, 09:11 AM
Thing is Bossman, I can't see how the original setup didn't constitute a threat, they should have been a real challenge to a three piece party...
I'm gonna need to look at the books which I can't do here...

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-21, 09:19 AM
Start by re-reading pages 56 and 57, and then expand to the chapter.

6 for 3 PCs is a level 5 encounter. That's beatable but dangerous, on the very upper limits of PC capability.

In our first test run, my two players, with three level 1 PCs (fighter, ranger, warlord), beat a similar but slightly easier encounter (hexer, skullcleaver, blackblade, 8 cutters; I say easier despite approximately equal XP values because the underboss is a bad mutha). The warlord was dropped first, and the fighter bled out before the hexer was killed by the ranger.

postus interruptus, more later.

cont.

The fight I describe was made much more difficult by a couple of things:

1. Minions. Oh, minions are freaking amazing. With Controller (Leaders)s like the goblin hexer and especially the goblin underboss, you want 1-2 front-liners (like the skullcleaver and blackblade, or warriors), and as many minions as you can squeeze in. In the case I related, the minions were the ones who took down the warlord and hammered the fighter.

2. Terrain. The half of the room where the PCs entered was waterlogged - difficult terrain. They decided to hold out the doorway into the cavern, and ended up stuck - warlord never got to move from where he started the fight. This meant that the hexer's vexing cloud was especially awful - he kept the entire party in it the whole time. (Not a problem in most cases, anyway - it's a very mobile ability.)

Especially when using goblins, you have to use minions. They're great. Sure, those 4 cutters are theoretically only equivalent to a goblin warrior, but when they get you double-flanked, they mash you up much worse - and they can run away in four different directions. The tactical power of minions is amazing, and it's compounded that much more when you have Controller (Leader)s involved. They also help blackblades and the like flank, which means more damage for the PCs. (The fighter's player is already convinced that minions are the most dangerous thing ever, and is bringing a wizard in as a second PC to deal with them...)

Moreover, while 4E combat is simpler and encounter design is mechanically easier, but it's almost a requirement that you have to come up with an interesting set-up and environment that provide tactical opportunity and variety. A plain 10x20 room is the worst possible place to have a fight in - it goes against the entire design philosophy of 4E combat. You shouldn't be thinking, "Gee, I guess I'll throw in X and Y into a flat, open battleground" - you should come up with an idea (a ruined hall with broken pillars and rubble), and then find a way to mechanically model it with the rules, and then flesh it out ("I guess I could squeeze in a Level 1 trap - this pillar here pillar falls when someone does this...").

Yakk
2008-08-21, 11:13 AM
The next encounter is in an open place in the forest. it has rained that day and the ground is muddy (difficult terain)

Ok, suggestion: not everything should be difficult terrain. Have some high and dry spots, and maybe even a narrow game-path that isn't difficult terrain.

Include clumps of underbrush (cover), and a swampy pool (cost 3 to move through).


Creatures:
1 Mad wraight (lvl 5 Controler)
1 doppelganger (lvl 3 Lurker also quest boss)
2/3 Spectre (level 4 lurker)
X Zombie rotter (lvl 3 minion)

Maybe i can use a fallen tree to for some chalanging terain (moderate DC=20)

The doppelganger will not really attack but will be polymorphed when the PC's are close so they will recognize him as a villager boy who is attacked by the wraight and specters.

Problem: the child should be dead. Might I suggest having some more fun:
The PCs are not the first people to reach the child. There are some human woodsmen and a priest (use the stats of rabble). As they approach, they see the priest succumb to death, and get back up as a Zombie rotter.

Second, instead of having single "hard" fights, you want to have a sequence of 4ish typical fights that can chip away at the PC's powers. Having to save daily powers (and sometimes encounter powers, as the fight rolls into a second unexpected fight) changes the dynamics.


Thing is Bossman, I can't see how the original setup didn't constitute a threat, they should have been a real challenge to a three piece party...
I'm gonna need to look at the books which I can't do here...

It was a threat. They burned all of their daily resources, and where reduced to 2 HP, by the fight. An even level fight is designed so that the party faces 4 of them per day, and has a little bit of power slack left over.

Note that leaders often need backup (often in the form of miniosn) to be effective.

Saph
2008-08-21, 11:28 AM
Numbers on their own don't tell the whole story. It comes down to tactics. The basis of 4e tactics is "take enemies down as fast as possible". From what I've seen, most 4e players and DMs tend to spread out attacks over lots of enemies instead, rather than just picking one target and dropping its HP to zero quickly.

But let's go to specifics. Your example encounter was 1 underboss, 1 hexer, 1 warrior, and 2 minions. Here's the most effective (not necessarily the most fun) way of playing it.

Goblin turn 1: Hexer drops a Vexing Cloud on the battle area. Underboss moves up into melee and attacks. Warrior takes a shot, cutters move into position.
Goblin turn 2: Pick target to kill. This will probably be the paladin, but if the rogue's been dumb enough to get surrounded, pick him instead. Hexer hits target with Blinding Hex. Underboss and cutters flank and hit target again. Warrior hits target again.

The underboss has 110 HP and gets a +3 to defences while bloodied. Due to Vexing Cloud, it has an effective +2 to defences from concealment, and the paladin and rogue get an extra -2 if they try and attack it in melee. That means an effective AC of 22 for the first 55 HP, and 25 for the second half. It will take the PCs forever to kill it, and every time they miss the hexer gives the underboss an extra attack. Once the paladin goes down the rogue and warlock are screwed; they haven't got ranged healing powers, so they can be chased down and picked off one at a time.

Really, barring lucky rolls on the part of the PCs, they ought to lose this one. Burning their dailies will give them a shot, but the underboss' defences with Vexing Cloud are too high.

- Saph

Charity
2008-08-21, 11:53 AM
It was a threat. They burned all of their daily resources, and where reduced to 2 HP, by the fight. An even level fight is designed so that the party faces 4 of them per day, and has a little bit of power slack left over.

Note that leaders often need backup (often in the form of miniosn) to be effective.

Yeah, but what ^ say.


The next encounter is in an open place in the forest. it has rained that day and the ground is muddy (difficult terain)
Creatures:
1 Mad wraight (lvl 6 Controler)
1 doppelganger (lvl 3 Lurker also quest boss)
2/3 Spectre (level 4 lurker)
X Zombie rotter (lvl 3 minion)

Maybe i can use a fallen tree to for some chalanging terain (moderate DC=20)


OK the wraith has a pretty nasty aura, as do the spectres
250+ (2-3)*175 + 150 + 38X = one very nasty encounter, I would tone it down a bit, drop the spectres, chuck in a couple of normal zombies, give the wraith some good cover advantage maybe at the top of a steep bank of very loose gravel that the party keep slipping down... with zombie rotters climbing out of the gravel at random intervals.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-21, 01:22 PM
Planning for the long fight has become my style.

I've noticed my players will try and burn their big moves in the middle section of combat. They open with basic tricks and positioning. If combat doesn't instantly move into their favor (the monsters out position them, for example, or one lands a big hit) they start using powers and they don't start small.

If your players are like mine they'll try to bust the power bank in one fight to end the encounter as fast as possible without consideration to the rest of the day.

Using this strategy I've seen them cut through encounters considerably above their level by stacking dailys on a specific targets and picking down the survivors.

If players unload they can drop things you'd never think they could.

I counter this by making sure my monsters work with each other. A pair with ongoing tricks, a leader with a boost of some sort (ideally healing, that pisses players off so bad when monsters heal), and a skirmisher/controller to chase the players who hang back.

I have two groups, both have been running for about eight session now. One is still unbalanced, as above. The other has found rythm and is playing smoothly and effectivally.

It's a player thing, that's about all I can say.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-21, 01:36 PM
Another good point is "conditioning" your players. It makes perfect sense for the PCs to break out all the stops on a EL +4 fight (it'd be deadly, otherwise), but if they keep breaking out Dailies on EL = or +1 fights then you need to make sure to throw in a EL +2 or +3 before they'd think to rest. Facing one of those without Dailies will either be a very narrow victory or they will retreat - that will give them food for thought.

Everyone else has made good points, so here's a list of general stuff (which is also listed in the DMG - which helps a lot!)
1) Don't use Minions in groups of less than 4, and don't spawn all the Minions next to each other. They make great flanking buddies and OA point defenses for the full monsters.

2) Don't use monsters at +5 of the character level. They can be incredibly deadly or totally useless. They're deadly if they catch a squishy off-guard, but useless if a Striker nukes them with a Daily since they count for such a large chunk of the encounter's XP budget.

3) Think about terrain placement. If your party is Ranged and the monsters are Melee, put a Light Obscuring rain or mist over the battlefield to give them a chance. If the monsters are Ranged, give them some cover to set up behind. Don't go overboard, of course - leave some fun stuff for the PCs and don't make movement impossible.

4) Don't think about individual encounters, think about strings of encounters. If you want the PCs to have only a couple of encounters, make them both tough, but if the PCs are going on a long dungeon crawl feel free to include lots of EL = which will slowly wear down the PCs.

d-dave
2008-08-21, 01:44 PM
This was kind of a challenge for me as well moving into 4e. Now though, I love the tactical aspect of the game. My group of 3.5 n00bs had a difficult time picking up D&D because of the intricate characters, but they did and had fun.

Then with the first 4e encounter (that I blundered through as DM!), they really picked up the game quickly. Those first few trial sessions made things difficult for me as I didn't think of tactics and terrain enough. I was trying to make sure I got them to follow the rules. Once we got that down, I could get the rest of it together.

I put them through the module in the DMG for our trial a second time with different chracters (so everyone could play another role, instant back up characters too), and it got ugly. First time they breezed through it. Second time, even with everyone reasonibly knowing what to do, they still got through, but everything was VERY close. Lots of healing surges used, and a dead character (six players, and yes, I added a few more monsters to account for the extra PC). But it was a TON more fun the second time around.

Good luck with your future games, just be sure to make sure your NPCs are maximizing their abilities. Use terrain and traps to create a dynamic battle field for your PCs to play in. In my next adventure, the PCs are going to be able to explore a trapped room in a wizard's tower. I'm thinking the crushing walls, dire rat swarms, and an undead monkey with the key to turning off the trap... Should be fun =)

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-21, 01:57 PM
Using this strategy I've seen them cut through encounters considerably above their level by stacking dailys on a specific targets and picking down the survivors.

If players unload they can drop things you'd never think they could.

You'd think the first time the next, tougher encounter destroys them because they have no dailies left, they'd learn to start with encounter powers and hold on to the dailies until they really need them.

You definitely shouldn't coddle players who intentionally use poor tactics and blow all their dailies right off the bat.

Heck, to make them think twice about using their encounter powers right away, you can easily do encounters that start small, but get bigger about 3 rounds in - reinforcements appear!

Without teleportation and rope trick, the DM has way more control of when the PCs get to take an extended rest.

Cilvyn
2008-08-21, 02:09 PM
thanx for all the interest and responces!

If you have some problems or experience of the same kind, don't be afraid of posting them. As for advise ofcors which we all can use!

Cilvyn

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-21, 02:10 PM
You'd think the first time the next, tougher encounter destroys them because they have no dailies left, they'd learn to start with encounter powers and hold on to the dailies until they really need them.

You definitely shouldn't coddle players who intentionally use poor tactics and blow all their dailies right off the bat.

Heck, to make them think twice about using their encounter powers right away, you can easily do encounters that start small, but get bigger about 3 rounds in - reinforcements appear!

Without teleportation and rope trick, the DM has way more control of when the PCs get to take an extended rest.

Hmm... I'd say no to punishing PCs. Make sure that the reinforcements are believable - say if the PCs are scouting in Orc held territory and blow all their Dailies on the first patrol they find and then rest for the day, send a second patrol to find out what happened to the first one about half-way through the PCs nap; same strength as before (EL =, maybe +1), but now it'll be much more difficult.

You should never look like a vindictive DM when you're shaping player expectations, but remember that the manner in which you run a game affects how the players play in.

Charity
2008-08-21, 02:15 PM
Actually thats a good point, there are quite a few well written small adventures out there, it might be an idea to plunder a few encounters from there, just to get an idea or two.

ninja_penguin
2008-08-21, 02:16 PM
As a quick tidbit for designing 4e encounters, I've found the following:

1. Wide open spaces make it a lot harder for rogues to gain non-flanking combat advantage for their sneak attack.

2. Make sure that your enemies spread out to avoid any AOE effects. If Necessary, try to lure the Paladin away so that the wizard can't tactically nuke everything around him.

So far, the only things that I've had really start putting a dent in player group has been:

1. The spray and pray ranged minion swarm. In the KOTS book, a segment where the encounter starts surrounded on both sides with ranged minions, even the high AC types were diving for cover to avoid being totally pincushioned. Tossing out this many attack rolls makes for a decent tactic, as you can't score more criticals and prevent accidental party wipe, but you avoid having your awesome guy failing to make his roles, and appearing to be lame.

2. Lurkers, or other things that have fun things that occur with combat advantage. Have them move up second, and nail somebody who is pinned down by minions. I've had the fighter going 'him! that guy! get him!' only to a lurker who just tossed out a handful of dice in damage because he's got combat advantage.


And as a closing note, I seem to have horrible luck with brutes. They have nice damage, but mine have all just been fodder as they generally flub their roles.

Hzurr
2008-08-21, 03:34 PM
I'm actually in the process of running the KotS campaign, and tonight, my party hits the Iron-Tooth encounter. I had read it a couple of times before, but I went back to re-read it in preparation, as I had heard many complaints that it was a tough encounter.

...

EL 6? Seriously? The party is lvl 1 when they hit this, and suddenly an EL 6? Now, I realize there are special circumstances (with the second wave and all that), but this seems like it's going to be exceptionally rough. We'll have 6 PCs, so hopefully that will help, but they're all new to 4th ed (one of them will be playing d&d for the first time tonight), and really were struggling with some of the earlier encounters. Does anyone have any advice for running this encounter? Is it as bad as everyone says, or is it just pretty tough? I mean, if a PC or two dies, I guess that's acceptable (however unfortunate), but I'd like to avoid a TPK.

ColdSepp
2008-08-21, 03:46 PM
I'm actually in the process of running the KotS campaign, and tonight, my party hits the Iron-Tooth encounter. I had read it a couple of times before, but I went back to re-read it in preparation, as I had heard many complaints that it was a tough encounter.

...

EL 6? Seriously? The party is lvl 1 when they hit this, and suddenly an EL 6? Now, I realize there are special circumstances (with the second wave and all that), but this seems like it's going to be exceptionally rough. We'll have 6 PCs, so hopefully that will help, but they're all new to 4th ed (one of them will be playing d&d for the first time tonight), and really were struggling with some of the earlier encounters. Does anyone have any advice for running this encounter? Is it as bad as everyone says, or is it just pretty tough? I mean, if a PC or two dies, I guess that's acceptable (however unfortunate), but I'd like to avoid a TPK.


Yeah... our party of 6 just had this encounter, and it was... well, we owned them. Hard. I don't think any of the PCs got below half health. We had a dragonborn paladin, dragonborn cleric, halfling rogue, elven ranger (bow), tiefling star pact warlock, and a warforged fighter.

ninja_penguin
2008-08-21, 11:03 PM
For my group at the irontooth encounter there were six people. I think the encounter came close to going badly for them, Irontooth himself is a beast. I had him crit and take down the warlord and fighter in one attack, although the fighter got back up a round later on a lucky save, so nobody died. If the fighter hadn't gotten back up though, there was a good chance that he would've wrecked some serious havoc on the group. Stealth and crowd control is key. If they hadn't focus fired some Kobolds right away, I think they'd have been overwhelmed. Just remind the group that retreating is an option.


Edit- I think that the shrine keeper in the town knows the Raise dead ritual, in the event of partial party death. I think you should have enough gold to work that up a little bit.

Ashdate
2008-08-22, 12:18 AM
That encounter killed our party of 5 players. I'd like to think it was some bad rolls that contributed (I missed my first 4 attacks as a fighter), but looking back our strategy wasn't as solid as it could be.

- Eddie

Yakk
2008-08-22, 10:39 AM
Remember, each doubling of XP increases EL by 4.

So it is half an EL 2 encounter, then the leftovers gang up on you with another EL 2 encounter (roughly -- I think it is more like 1.1 and 2.7, but the idea remains).

Note that this is the end of an entire branch. Ideally, having read ahead, you can build it up as something the players are scared of -- the actual Kobold den, which is sending out patrols, and even if the townsfolk knew where it was, nobody is suicidal enough to actually attack it!

With 6 players, that reduces the EL6 down to an EL4.5 to 5ish as well.